Cooperstown Notebook: Chris Sale and Others Making Tracks Toward Plaques

Eric Canha, Mark J. Rebilas, and Brad Penner-Imagn Images

Three years ago, Chris Sale appeared to be pretty close to the end of the line. After missing the abbreviated 2020 season due to Tommy John surgery, he made just 11 starts totaling 48 1/3 innings in 2021–22 while battling further injuries, including a stress fracture of a rib and fractures of his left pinky and right wrist. When he was sidelined by yet another stress fracture — this one in his scapula — in June 2023, he missed 10 weeks, and his ERA ballooned to 4.88 after returning to make half a dozen starts. It was fair to think the 34-year-old lefty’s most productive days were behind him, as his wiry 6-foot-6 frame could no longer withstand the rigors of regular duty.

Lo and behold, Sale made a strong showing over his final three starts of 2023, capturing the attention of the Braves, who traded infielder Vaughn Grissom to the Red Sox in a straight-up exchange in December 2023 and soon restructured his contract. Sale rewarded Atlanta’s faith by winning both the pitching Triple Crown (with 18 wins, a 2.38 ERA, and 225 strikeouts) and the Cy Young award that had long eluded him. Though he was limited to 20 starts last year by a fractured rib, he has continued to dominate; this year, the 37-year-old southpaw ranks second in the NL in ERA (2.20), FIP (2.26), and strikeout rate (30.6%) behind Cy Young favorite Jacob Misiorowski, as well as third in FanGraphs WAR (4.9) behind The Miz and Cristopher Sánchez. And while he’s “only” sixth in Baseball Reference WAR (4.5), Sale’s run with the Braves has pushed his S-JAWS past 2025 Hall of Fame inductee CC Sabathia (50.8). Sale won’t catch any of the big four from this era — Justin Verlander, Clayton Kershaw, Zack Greinke, and Max Scherzer, the last of whom may be the only one active after this season — but he’s the only other active or recently retired starter with an S-JAWS above 45.0. As voters scramble to recalibrate their Hall of Fame standards for starting pitchers in an age of diminished workloads, Sale has likely punched his ticket to Cooperstown.

It hasn’t been a great season for veterans vying to shore up their Hall of Fame credentials, as I noted on Monday, with injuries sidelining hopefuls such as Carlos Correa, Francisco Lindor, José Ramírez, Juan Soto, and Giancarlo Stanton, and age seemingly catching up to Jose Altuve, Manny Machado, and others. Yet Sale isn’t alone among mid-career players who have advanced their causes. What follows here is a partial position-by-position roundup of some others whose odds of earning a spot Cooperstown have improved this season, at least by my reckoning. Not every position is covered, and at some positions, the top candidates wound up in the previous installment because their chances have taken a hit. I’ve included each player’s JAWS standing, his 2026 WAR (Baseball Reference’s version unless otherwise indicated), and his ZiPS rest-of-season projection.

Hall of Fame Progress 2026 — Starting Pitchers
Player Age Career Peak S-JAWS Rk 2026 WAR 2026 Proj
Chris Sale 37 61.7 41.8 51.7 53 4.5 0.8
Jacob deGrom 38 49.4 39.7 44.6 95 1.4 0.6
Zack Wheeler 36 44.4 35.8 40.1 142 3.8 0.5
Gerrit Cole 35 45.6 34.4 40.0 143 2.5 0.4
AVG HOF SP 73.0 40.7 56.8
Source: Baseball Reference
2026 Proj = ZiPS rest-of-season projected WAR.

Chris Sale

Though he’s passed Sabathia in S-JAWS despite shouldering a comparatively lighter workload, Sale isn’t going to approach the big man’s 251 career wins, and he has his work cut out to reach Sabathia’s 3,093 strikeouts. Sale has totaled just 2,219 innings so far, but he’s packed a lot into them, with 10 All-Star selections, six top-five finishes in the Cy Young voting in addition to his win, a 157-97 record, and 2,745 strikeouts. According to Dan Szymborski’s hot-off-the-presses ZiPS-driven estimates, Sale has a 45% chance of reaching 200 wins, higher than any active pitcher besides Cole (48%), and a 79% chance of registering 3,000 strikeouts, a surprisingly rare feat among lefties, with Steve Carlton, Randy Johnson, Sabathia, and Kershaw the only ones to get to that level. He’s 53rd in S-JAWS, within 1.2 points of leapfrogging David Cone and four Hall of Famers — Clark Griffith (an excellent pitcher inducted as a pioneer/executive), Bob Feller, Stan Coveleski, and Dazzy Vance — and within 2.2 points of cracking the top 40. After Scherzer, it could be a long time before we see a stronger candidate than Sale.

Jacob deGrom

A late bloomer who didn’t reach the majors until about five weeks before his 26th birthday, deGrom banked back-to-back Cy Young awards in 2018–19, but made just 47 starts over the next five seasons due to the coronavirus pandemic, a forearm strain, a stress reaction in his scapula, and his second Tommy John surgery (he had his first while in college). He was very good last year, going 12-8 with a 2.97 ERA, 185 strikeouts, and 3.0 WAR, but after an eight-run, five-walk shellacking by the White Sox on Wednesday — which cost him 0.7 WAR — deGrom is now 9-9 with a 4.21 ERA, 159 strikeouts, and 1.4 WAR this year, his age-38 season.

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While deGrom’s career totals of 1,670 innings, 105 wins, and 2,010 strikeouts are paltry by the standards of enshrined starting pitchers, he’s banked both his 100th win and 2,000th strikeout this season. He’s somewhere between this generation’s version of Sandy Koufax or Johan Santana, a pitcher whose dominance during his short career — including a 144 ERA+ and a 29.4% strikeout rate — might either be viewed by voters as worthy of enshrinement or in danger of slipping through the cracks. He made his fifth All-Star team last season, and though he hasn’t been as dominant this year, even padding his career totals with a slightly above-average performance improves his odds. I’d be lying if I said I was fully sold, but his S-JAWS (which ranks just 95th) has already surpassed those of Koufax and Felíx Hernández, with Hall of Famer Whitey Ford (45.5) on the horizon. We’ll see what happens if he stays healthy.

Zack Wheeler

Just over a year ago, Wheeler landed on the injured list due to a blood clot in his shoulder, and was soon diagnosed as suffering from veinous thoracic outlet syndrome. Season-ending surgery not only prevented him from pitching in the postseason, but also threatened his career. Fortunately, since returning to action in late April, he’s pitched quite well, posting a 3.48 ERA, a 3.86 FIP, and a 29.7% strikeout rate in 124 1/3 innings. While he’s short of qualifying for the ERA title this season, his 3.8 WAR ranks eighth in the league.

With just 123 wins and 1,988 strikeouts late in his age-36 season, Wheeler barely shows up on the ZiPS milestone radar (he has a 2% chance of reaching 200 wins), and his S-JAWS is just an eyelash ahead of Cole’s. Where he really stands out is in WAR; he’s led the NL twice, with additional finishes of third, fifth, and seventh (twice). In the rolling seven-year WAR calculations popularized by MLB.com’s Mike Petriello, which tend to be dominated by future Hall of Famers, Wheeler edges Cole for the lead across the 2018–24 span by one win (32.6 to 31.6), and additionally owns a 34.1–26.7 edge over Max Fried for 2019–25, and a 34.7–26.5 edge (so far) over Fried for 2020–26. If the season ended today, he’d have a 31.9–24.0 lead over Logan Webb for the 2021–27 span. While Wheeler previously said he would retire after the 2027 season, once his current three-year, $126 million extension expires, he’s reportedly reconsidering that stance. From a Hall standpoint, it may very well be worth his while.

Gerrit Cole

After being limited to 17 starts in 2024 due to nerve inflammation and edema in his elbow, Cole missed all of last season due to Tommy John surgery. He’s had some ups and downs since returning in late May, but thus far his 3.11 ERA and 3.29 FIP aren’t far removed from his career marks (both 3.17), and his 26.6% strikeout rate is still good enough to crack the AL’s top 10 among pitchers with at least 90 innings. His current S-JAWS is nothing to write home about, but he’s currently at 2.5 WAR on the year, 0.2 WAR away from this being one of his peak seasons, and considering he has another 2.6-WAR season within his best seven, he could still advance substantially. Couple that possibility with his reasonable shots at 200 wins (he has 160, and a major league-high 48% of reaching the milestone according to ZiPS) and 3,000 strikeouts (he has 2,351, with a 23% chance via ZiPS) and it’s not hard to see him as the pitcher with the next-best shot at Cooperstown after Sale.

Hall of Fame Progress 2026 — Relief Pitchers
Player Age Career WAR WPA WPA/LI R-JAWS Rk 2026 WAR 2026 Proj
Kenley Jansen 38 24.3 30.6 18.5 24.4 7 0.2 0.0
Aroldis Chapman 38 25.7 27.0 15.9 22.9 11 1.6 0.2
AVG HOF RP 37.8 29.9 19.7 29.2
Source: Baseball-Reference
2026 Proj = ZiPS rest-of-season projected WAR.

Kenley Jansen

Admittedly, it hasn’t been a very good season for Jansen, who’s posted a 4.08 ERA and converted just 17 of 22 save chances for the underachieving Tigers. However, thanks to the staying power of his cut fastball — which was still the third-most valuable in the game according to Statcast just a year ago — he’s been productive enough in recent years to put significant daylight between himself and Craig Kimbrel, to the point that he’s made his case as the best reliever outside the Hall. Having surpassed Lee Smith’s total of 478 saves earlier this season, Jansen is now third all-time in that category with 493, behind only Hall of Famers Mariano Rivera and Trevor Hoffman, and seventh in R-JAWS behind six Hall of Famers, including 2025 inductee Billy Wagner. His shot at election may well depend upon voters’ appetites to anoint not just him but also Kimbrel and Chapman, all of whom have had long stretches of dominance but various dings that make them less-than-automatic choices.

Aroldis Chapman

Chapman in particular comes with significant baggage, most notably a 30-game suspension in 2016 for violating the game’s domestic violence policy. His tenure with the Yankees came to an ugly end in 2022, when after a career-worst season that included time missed for an infected tattoo and the loss of his job as their closer, he skipped a mandatory workout ahead of the Division Series and was left off the roster. Since then, Chapman has worked his way back to his employers’ good graces by pitching for four different teams; over the last two seasons with the Red Sox, he’s been just about as dominant as ever, with a 1.17 ERA and 32 saves in 2025, a 1.81 ERA and 30 saves this season, and All-Star selections for both campaigns, running his career total to nine. He’s ninth in saves (397) and 11th in R-JAWS, with the momentum to keep climbing in both categories.

Hall of Fame Progress 2026 — First Basemen
Player Age Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS Rk 2026 WAR 2026 Proj
Paul Goldschmidt 38 65.0 45.0 55.0 14 1.1 0.3
Freddie Freeman 36 67.4 39.4 53.4 18 3.3 0.7
Matt Olson 32 44.0 36.7 40.4 38 4.1 0.7
AVG HOF 1B 65.0 42.1 53.5
Source: Baseball-Reference
2026 Proj = ZiPS rest-of-season projected WAR

Paul Goldschmidt

Goldschmidt surpassed both the 2,000-hit mark and the JAWS standard for first basemen while with the Cardinals in 2024, the same year that his collapse against right-handed pitching began. He’s had ample chance to reverse that slide, but with the emergence of Ben Rice as the Yankees’ best hitter this side of Aaron Judge, Goldschmidt has been eased into a platoon role, though at times he’s been overexposed due to the team’s rash of injuries. Still, he’s handled the role change with grace — notably taking a pay cut from $12.5 million to $4 million plus incentives to re-sign with the Yankees — and even thrived at times. His career totals of 2,265 hits and 388 home runs are both ahead of the marks of Joey Votto, whom he’s on the verge of passing in JAWS. With Votto likely to sail into Cooperstown on the 2029 ballot, his coattails could help the unconvinced when Goldschmidt hits the ballot.

Freddie Freeman

Though he recently went a carer-high 18 games without an extra-base hit, Steady Freddie is in the midst of a very solid season, hitting .299/.371/.458 (130 wRC+) with 15 homers. He made his 10th All-Star team and blew past the 2,500-hit mark; with 2,576 and counting, he’s got an estimated 68% chance of reaching 3,000, higher than any other active player and well-ahead of the second-most likely Bobby Witt Jr. (40%). Freeman also has 382 home runs, with an 18% shot at reaching 500. He’s not quite a member of the 40.0-WAR peak club, but he’s 0.1 point away from matching the JAWS standard among first basemen. On top of that, his postseason résumé includes three World Series rings and status as the only player with two World Series walk-off home runs. He’s on his way.

Matt Olson

Freeman left massive shoes to fill in Atlanta, and Olson has done an exceptional job, making three All-Star teams in five seasons, leading the league in home runs, RBI, and slugging percentage in 2023, and not missing a single game since May 1, 2021. His streak of consecutive games is at 913 and counting, the eighth longest in major league history. He’s got 324 home runs, including 36 this season (second in the NL), with a median projection of 451 and a 31% chance of reaching 500. He’s also got a collection of Gold Gloves, with three and counting; his 7 FRV leads the majors at his position, while his 4 DRS is tied for eighth. He’s in the midst of his fifth-best season by WAR, and has two others of 3.9 and 4.0 WAR, leaving him room to grow into the 40-WAR peak club. There’s still work to do, but if he can remain productive, he’s got a real shot.

Hall of Fame Progress 2026 — Third Basemen
Player Age Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS Rk 2026 WAR 2026 Proj
Nolan Arenado 35 60.1 44.2 52.2 20 2.0 0.4
Alex Bregman 32 47.1 38.1 42.6 32 4.0 0.6
AVG HOF 3B 68.9 43.4 56.1
Source: Baseball-Reference
2026 Proj = ZiPS rest-of-season projected WAR

Nolan Arenado

He’s more than a year older than both Machado and Ramírez, and trails both in JAWS, but the big deal here is that he passed the 2,000-hit mark on July 20. While his first season with the Diamondbacks hasn’t been remarkable, his current 105 wRC+ (on .237/.315/.435 line) represents a 21-point rebound from last year, and his 21 home runs are his most since 2023, pushing his career total to 374. He’s unlikely to add to his impressive collection of 10 Gold Gloves, but he still plays a pretty mean third base, and I suspect that his combination of 400ish homers and his defensive value (currently 168 runs above average, fifth behind Brooks Robinson, Adrian Beltré, Scott Rolen, and Buddy Bell) will carry the day, whether or not he reaches the JAWS standard.

Alex Bregman

Even after he put up seasons of 7.6 WAR in 2018 and a league-high 8.9 WAR in ’19 — with totals of 31 and 41 home runs that he hasn’t approached since — Bregman has never made a strong showing on my radar because hasn’t produced another 5-WAR season, though he’s had three between 4.0 and 4.9. In his first year with the Cubs, despite a slow start and a modest .254/.343/.415 (113 wRC+) batting line, he has a shot to reach that elusive 5.0-WAR mark, thanks largely to exceptional defense in the form of a career-high 12 DRS (second among all third basemen) and 6 FRV (first). His 47.1 WAR through his age-32 season ranks 22nd among third basemen, within one win of Hall of Famers John McGraw (who’s in as a manager) and Paul Molitor and non-Hall of Famers Robin Ventura and Graig Nettles, but that still leaves him about 8 WAR behind Rolen, 11 behind Beltré, and nearly 15 behind the fast-starting Machado. Bregman will need exceptional staying power to have a convincing case.

Hall of Fame Progress 2026 — Outfielders
Player Age Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS Rk 2026 WAR 2026 Proj
Kyle Schwarber 33 22.3 20.4 21.4 113 2.6 0.5
AVG HOF LF 65.3 41.8 53.6
Mike Trout 35 91.3 64.8 78.1 5 3.7 0.6
AVG HOF CF 71.2 44.8 58.0
Mookie Betts 33 77.2 55.5 66.4 8 2.1 0.6
Bryce Harper 33 56.9 38.3 47.6 26 3.1 0.6
AVG HOF RF 69.7 42.3 56.0

Kyle Schwarber

WAR and JAWS don’t make any kind of good case for Schwarber, whose defense in left field took big bites out of his value in his first two seasons in Philadelphia. His only season of more than 3.5 WAR was last year’s 4.6, but three of his four most valuable seasons — the last three — have been ones where he’s largely stowed his glove away and stuck to DH duty.

Schwarber already has two home run titles and may win a third this year; he’s got a three-homer lead on Olson, 39-36. He has 379 career homers, with ZiPS give him not only a 52% chance of reaching 500, but also an 11% chance of reaching 600. Throw in a postseason résumé that includes 23 homers to go with .234/.361/.545 line and you have… well, I don’t exactly know what you have. The poor man’s Stanton? A first-division Adam Dunn? I suspect that if Schwarber gets to 500 home runs, the vibes will carry the day, because he’s one of the most entertaining sluggers around.

Mike Trout

Trout is entrenched at no. 5 in JAWS among center fielders, about nine points above Ken Griffey Jr. and nine below Mickey Mantle, so there’s not a lot at stake here, but prior to 2025–26, you had to dial back to ’18–19 to find back-to-back seasons in which Trout played at least 100 games. While his .242/.383/.436 line is far below his career standard, his 131 wRC+ is still good for 11th in the AL, and what’s more, his 3.7 WAR is his highest total since 2022, even with -8 DRS in center field. He’s got 146 hits to go to reach 2,000, and 76 homers to reach 500; ZiPS projects him to finish at 497 in the latter category and gives him a 47% chance of making it to the milestone. Milestones aren’t going to make or break his Hall of Fame case, of course, but we shouldn’t take for granted this chance to see an all-time great still playing well.

Mookie Betts

The only active player with four World Series wins, Betts is eighth in JAWS among right fielders, with the fifth-highest peak score behind Babe Ruth, Stan Musial, Henry Aaron, and Judge. He’s made a remarkable transition to shortstop mid-career, and has put in enough work on the defensive side to be well above average (17 DRS last year, 7 DRS this year). That’s given him a solid floor, value-wise, even as his bat has faded and his body has struggled to withstand the rigors of his position. He’s hitting just .236/.293/.404 (90 wRC+) — career lows across the board and well behind his Statcast expected numbers — but the fact that he’s having a better season than any of the shortstops in the previous installment shouldn’t be obscured. This guy is a Hall of Famer.

Bryce Harper

I don’t want to jinx anything, but Harper has played every Phillies game thus far and has a shot at his highest total since 2019 (157). What’s more, he’s hit .265/.384/.499 for a 140 wRC+, just a point below his career standard. The big milestones of 2,000 hits and 400 homers will have to wait ’til next year; he has 1,924 of the former and 389 of the latter, with a similar ZiPS projection to Trout (495 homers, with a 45% chance of reaching 500). Unlike Trout, Harper is still several points from the JAWS standard at his position — to which he recently returned after the Phillies’ deadline-fueled infield reshuffle – but he has a reasonable shot of chipping into his peak score, which is still short of 40.0. To an even greater degree than Schwarber, stellar postseason numbers (.274/.390/.596 with 17 homers) and entertainment value are going to help put him over the top. And that’s before we even consider his two MVP awards and nine All-Star selections.

Hall of Fame Progress 2026 — Designated Hitter/Starting Pitcher
Player Age Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS Rk 2026 WAR 2026 Proj
Shohei Ohtani 32 58.2 56.2 57.2 6.9 1.5
AVG HOF DH/SP How do you measure unicorns?

Shohei Ohtani

Inflammation in Ohtani’s left knee led the Dodgers to shut him down from pitching in early July, at a point when even with some hits falling in he’d managed a 1.79 ERA and a 2.60 FIP in 85 2/3 innings. Reportedly, he’s close to a return, albeit a limited one that will see him used as an opener while he rebuilds his pitch count, à la his 2025 rehab from his second UCL reconstruction. He’s at 3.0 WAR and counting in that department.

Meanwhile, various aches, pains, and mini-slumps have led to a drop in power that has cost Ohtani 76 points of slugging percentage and 22 points of wRC+. He’s at .287/.388/.546 with 30 homers and a 151 wRC+, pretty great by the standards of mere mortals, though it likely won’t garner him a fourth straight (and fifth overall) MVP award. At the end of the day, despite the fact that he’s only in his ninth season and has no two-way standard against which we can compare him, his 57.2 JAWS is higher than anyone active except for Trout, Betts, and Judge. Oh, and according to ZiPS, he’s got odds of 65% to reach 500 homers, 38% to reach 600, and 8% to reach 700. Remarkable.





Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.

95 Comments
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quincy0191Member since 2020
16 days ago

Zack Wheeler is such a sneaky HoFer I’m afraid he won’t get in because nobody really paid attention to him. But can you imagine if the Giants don’t trade him for Carlos Beltran and their 06-09 first round picks are:
Tim Lincecum
Madison Bumgarner
Buster Posey
Zack Wheeler

Am I ignoring well-known history or is that one of the greatest runs of consecutive picks ever? Possibly two Hall of Famers and two more Very Gooders, the backbone of three WS winners.

dovshevMember
16 days ago
Reply to  quincy0191

I immediately went to who the Nats picked around Strasburg and Harper. They actually took Rendon the following year which makes for a compelling trio (1 HoF, 2 HoVG), but still falls short compared to those Giants names and is obviously a player short as well (pending a late career renaissance by Giolito who was the year after Rendon)

darren
14 days ago
Reply to  dovshev

I know WAR totals don’t tell the whole story but:

Harper 57.2 WAR
Rendon 34.2 WAR
Strasburg 31.0 WAR
Giolito 14.0 WAR

Posey 45.0 WAR
Wheeler 44.3 WAR
Bumgarner 37.2 WAR
Lincecum 19.5 WAR

It’s pretty close!

tjcook87Member since 2020
16 days ago
Reply to  quincy0191

Of the four SPs listed, I’m the least optimistic about Wheeler’s chances of election. I do think he’ll need to get up closer to 2500 Ks at least to have a better shot; a Phillies championship would help him a lot, too. I would be happy with Wheeler in the Hall, but I think he’d be on the shorter end of the career right now for many voters, and would really need that quality over quantity argument to catch fire. As it stands, he needs another two or three seasons of what he’s been doing, assuming he wants to stick around.

quincy0191Member since 2020
16 days ago
Reply to  tjcook87

For all the eyeballs on how old deGrom was when he got going, he posted a 3-win season at age 27, while Wheeler had only a single 2.5-fWAR year prior to his age-28 campaign.

And for the hype around deGroms peak, it wasn’t much longer than Wheeler’s two best seasons; of the top five fWAR marks between the two, Wheeler has three. deGrom was absolutely more dominant at his apex, but Wheeler has spent more time pitching like a league ace after finding durability in his 30s, and I wouldn’t be shocked if they end up with similar career totals in a lot of ways, get to them the same ways (a couple absurd years, a few more really good ones, a ton of prime seasons lost to injury), yet are discussed very differently.

Because deGrom broke in and immediately shoved, while Wheeler took four or five years to find his best footing, it seems like we have this conception of deGrom as “if he could only stay healthy he’s a surefire HoF” (and that is true) and Wheeler as just sort of a good pitcher, but a lot of their numbers are pretty close.

MarkZMember since 2017
16 days ago
Reply to  quincy0191

DeGrom is over a half run better than Wheeler in basically any career run metric. Thats just a lot. Not “pretty close”.

Last edited 16 days ago by MarkZ
quincy0191Member since 2020
15 days ago
Reply to  MarkZ

There’s more than run metrics, though. Obviously deGrom is a better pitcher on a rate basis , which is why he has a WAR lead despite Wheeler throwing almost 200 more innings. They’re within 50 K of each other because of offsetting factors like that.

But the point is that I think they’re a little more comparable across their careers than one would think. They both got off to late starts, though we talk about that with deGrom way more than Wheeler. They’ve both got one (or two) major outlier peak seasons, but the rest are in more All-Star territory than Cy Young. They’ve both been pretty inconsistent year over year for one reason or another, usually injury.

I wonder how the discussion around Wheeler would be different if his career arc were more like deGrom, though, where he had his 7-WAR year right out of the gate and then faded instead of doing it in the middle. I feel like the narrative punishes guys that build up to greatness more than guys who burn bright early and then fall off.

darren
14 days ago
Reply to  quincy0191

Mariners from 1993 to 1996:

A-Rod
Jason Varitek
Jose Cruz Jr.
Gil Meche

Of course, that’s kind of top-heavy but the other 3 all had 16+ career WAR each.

MarkZMember since 2017
16 days ago

> and he has his work cut out to reach Sabathia’s 3,093 strikeouts

If Sale has an 80% chance to reach 3000, hes got almost the same chance to pass Sabathia. He has an option the braves will pick up and then unless he gets hurt, will likely be 1y away from passing Sabathia. Really his odds feel more binary around whether he gets hurt or not.

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
14 days ago
Reply to  MarkZ

After watching last night’s masterpiece the ONLY thing that can prevent this future Hall of Fame member from reaching 3000 K’s is injury. When that 100 mph jumped up on the screen I cheered and I cheered even louder when this 37 year old pitcher, extraordinaire, blew his 109th pitch past Call to finish off his complete game. His pitching is matched only by his class and character. It is easy to cheer for a man who has battled back through injury after injury with a perseverance that never wavered and to see his son in the crowd was the perfect end to a great night of baseball.

Adam SMember since 2016
16 days ago

Much as I enjoyed the writeup, I don’t think deGrom improved his chances for the Hall and would argue he significantly hurt them.

I’m sure there are those who would vote for him already based on his dominance when healthy. I think most voters would like to see add to his resume. He doesn’t have to win a Cy Young, but a few 4-WAR seasons to push his total into the 60s makes it hard to vote against him. Not only doesn’t a 1.5-2 WAR season do that, but it makes it less likely he’ll be good in 2027 or 2028.

Barring a Sale-like resurgence deGrom seems like a guy we’ll be arguing over for the next 20 years with some CERTAIN he should be in the Hall with many CERTAIN he should not.

MarkZMember since 2017
16 days ago
Reply to  Adam S

There are a few counters to this:

Youre posting the day after he got hammered. Obviously if thats how he keeps pitching this year, thats bad. But, assuming not, hell continue to rack up value.

FIP thinks hes been excellent this year. Again, after yesterday he has a one run gap between ERA and FIP.

Hes still throwing 97+! Just incredible for his age.

Lanidrac
16 days ago
Reply to  MarkZ

But FIP is only useful as a predictor metric.

richwp01Member since 2019
15 days ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

I think some disagree with that.

dustyelbowsMember since 2020
15 days ago
Reply to  richwp01

FIP is based on a pitcher’s walk, strikeout, and home run rates. You wouldn’t say those are “only useful as predictor metrics”.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
15 days ago
Reply to  dustyelbows

FIP argues that the only way to explain the difference in outcome between a hard line drive in the gap and a lazy pop fly caught by the LF is random variation.

FIP argues that the only way to explain the difference in outcome between a 6’ fireballer pitching from the windup and the stretch is random variation.

Last edited 15 days ago by Cool Lester Smooth
Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
15 days ago
Reply to  dustyelbows

I haven’t downvoted you…but I would love to see you explain why either argument is correct.

An explanation of how and why Tom Tango’s framework is wrong would be a lovely bonus.

dustyelbowsMember since 2020
15 days ago

ERA includes many things not under the pitcher’s control, while FIP removes many things that are under the pitcher’s control. I wouldn’t argue that either of them are only useful for either retrospective or only predictive purposes. They’re both just (imperfect) measures of how good a pitcher was!

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
14 days ago
Reply to  dustyelbows

I agree that FIP is roughly as valuable as ERA…but we live in a world where we can see exactly how many runs a pitcher’s defense has saved or cost him, and use that number to adjust his RA9!

The Pirates have been 8 runs below average defensively with Paul Skenes on the mound – that takes his earned RA9 from 4.28 to 3.72 (and his RA9-WAR from 2.3 to 3.2).

The Cardinals have been 12 runs above average defensively with Michael McGreevy on the mound – that takes his RA9 from 4.11 to 4.87..and his RA9-WAR from 2.3 to 1.1!

We can actually realize the promise of Rally-WAR, while eliminating the finicky nonsense they use to do it with DRS!

dustyelbowsMember since 2020
14 days ago

This also requires a good amount of trust in small-sample defensive metrics, so I wouldn’t say I’m very trusting of this method given the tools we have today. Plus, it isn’t available for historical or minor-league comparisons.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
14 days ago
Reply to  dustyelbows

Very fair on both counts, but I do really like OAA.

JimmyMember since 2019
15 days ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

I can’t believe someone is arguing that FIP is only a useful predictive stat in the year of our lord 2026

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
15 days ago
Reply to  Jimmy

Far more insane is anyone arguing that HRs and IFFBs are the only way to measure contact quality.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
16 days ago
Reply to  Adam S

DeGrom for me is approaching Felix territory.

Specifically, the “Keep Johan’s name out of your damn mouth” part.

He’s cracked 4 rWAR five times, 5 rWAR three times, and 6 WAR twice.

Hamels is at 9 x 4 WAR, 4 x 5 WAR, and 2 x 6 WAR.

Johan is at 7 x 4 WAR, 5 x 5 WAR, and 4 x 6 WAR (and he beat 7 WAR in each of those 4 years)

Antonio BananasMember since 2016
15 days ago
Reply to  Adam S

Degrom has a long way to go. By 7 year bWAR peak he’s about 11% below the average HOFer and by fWAR he’s slightly below average.

His total body of work wont get close to the average hall of famer.

His late start is as irrelevant. If a guy isnt going to remotely hit the career numbers, his peak should be incredible (not a pitcher, but Andruw Jones as an example).

Id actually be really interested in a way to quantify peak WAR of guys who didnt have huge career numbers in the Hall. My guess is their 7-year peaks were significantly higher than deGrom’s

Last edited 15 days ago by Antonio Bananas
Jon L.Member since 2016
16 days ago

*deleted*

Last edited 16 days ago by Jon L.
dangledangleMember since 2024
16 days ago

Outside of Sale the case for these starters is best served by as many seasons as they can muster to separate them in terms of time from the current four no doubters. There needs to gap where that allows the voters to gaze out and see how shallow the pipeline is going to be. The same is true for Sale it will determine how long he remains on the ballot. Also the more the voters turn over the less wedded the electorate will be to traditional markers. Obviously additional seasons will help their final counting stats and some of them need to keep pitching to put them over the hump.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
16 days ago
Reply to  dangledangle

CC was first ballot. Sale’s a lock, especially if he gets 3000 Ks.

One advantage Cole has, JAWS-wise, is that he has a pair of 2.6 WAR seasons in his Top 7.

He’s put up 4.5 WAR over his last 33 starts/197 IP. If he maintains that level for another couple full seasons, he’s at (55+38)/2=46.5 JAWS.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
16 days ago

A lot of these guys are decided one way or the other, with Trout, Betts, Ohtani, Sale, Harper, and Freeman being locks. Goldschmidt is also getting in, although maybe he has to wait a couple ballots. The remaining pitchers are either going to get in or not based on larger conversations about pitcher workload and roles, not what they do now.

The big question mark for me is Arenado. He seems pretty clearly behind Jose Ramirez and Manny Machado, and he has been inconsistent in his last few years and has been hurt. He feels like one of the best candidates to hang out around 40% for many years but not get in.

Left of Centerfield
15 days ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I agree that Arenado is behind Ramirez. But it’s weird. They both debuted in 2013. The both have exactly 60.0 bWAR. Ramirez has microscopic leads in WAR7 (0.5) andJAWS (0.2). Granted Ramirez has done that in 800 fewer PAs. But it seems like the perceived gap between the two is larger than the actual gap.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
15 days ago

Ramirez is a much better hitter, a much better baserunner, and a one-team guy…who’s made 155 more postseason PA.

MarkZMember since 2017
15 days ago

This whole thread is spot on. The HOF just like the rest of baseball doesn’t value defense as much as offense, or trusts it’s measurement less, or whatever. Ramirez and Machado are both better hitters than Arenado and also considered good to very good defenders. Add to that Arenado has played half his games in Colorado which is still harder to quantify how much he should be docked and I’m not sure if I’d personally vote for him, though I imagine he’ll still get in.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
15 days ago

I would definitely put Arenado behind Ramirez. DRS is prone to giving inflated numbers so it is a prerequisite that you buy his DRS numbers over other methods. And then if you do believe it then you also have to ignore that third basemen at Coors have a habit of putting up much higher defensive numbers there than other places. It seems that defensive metrics overrate infielders and underrate outfielders. He could still get there but he’s a “no” for me right now.

baseballfan115Member since 2020
15 days ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I feel like we’re going to look back on Arenado’s CO years and realize we underrated his offensive contributions.

While having a freak age 31 offensive season would not be unheard of, I find it much more believable that it was either slightly better or more in line with his 2014-2019 talent when he typically came out with a 130ops+. I think the adjusted numbers fail to account for the coors affect on his road hitting ability.

Adjust his offensive peak to 140 and he’s a shoe in, and im not sure 2017 shouldn’t be closer to or above 150.

theduke11
15 days ago
Reply to  baseballfan115

Arenado has a similar case to Ken Boyer and I think he might suffer the same fate ie someone has to represent the example of people who just fall short

GoatHerderMember since 2016
15 days ago

To me, the recent comp for Schwarber is David Ortiz. Power hitting DH, post-season heroics with a big likable personality (not that it should matter but it does). I really like the JAWS methodology but not as applicable to Schwarber. He’ll be judged more on traditional offensive stats than WAR.

AnonMember since 2020
15 days ago
Reply to  GoatHerder

Good comp:

Schwarber thru age 33: 5,957 PA, 380 HR, 879 R, 865 RBI, 127 wRC+, 24.2 fWAR

Ortiz: 6,055 PA, 317 HR, 889 R, 1,068 RBI, 134 wRC+, 28.6 fWAR

Ortiz is in in because he kept mashing right through to the end at age 40 and only retired because of his legs. Tack Ortiz’s 34-40 onto Schwarber’s current stats and you get (keeping in mind that Schwarber hasn’t completed his age 33 season so all the number will be a bit higher):

9,993 PA, 604 HR, 1,409 R, 1,565 RBI, 135-ish wRC+, 46.6 fWAR

Definitely light on the modern stats but very heavy on the traditional stats. Every non-steroid guy over 600 HR is in (or will be – Pujols) and the only 1,400/1,400 guy not in (or will be – Pujols, Miggy and soon Freddie) is Luis Gonzalez who barely snuck over 1,400 of both.

I don’t know, pretty big ask for Schwarber to finish like ORtiz did and I think that might be what it takes.

darren
15 days ago
Reply to  Anon

Yeah, that’s the rub. Ortiz was not looking like a HOF at age 33. I was thinking he was going to end up in the Boog Powell/Mo Vaughn career category. So to keep up with him, Schwarber would have to have a historically incredible end of his career.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
15 days ago
Reply to  darren

And Schwarber’s never failed a drug test, either!

darren
14 days ago

Zing!

theduke11
15 days ago
Reply to  Anon

The only plausible way to replicate that performance is PEDs. I very much doubt Schwarber has any shot at all.

theduke11
15 days ago

I hate relievers in the Hall but Chapman is one of the best and I dont think he’s done. Guy keeps himself in awesome shape

Degrom and Schwarber ? Thanks but no thanks

Sale and Cole look obvious. Wheeler is an interesting name. He should stick around if he’s pitching at this level

Freeman to Olsen. Well done Braves. They both look good for HOF.

Arenado and Bregman look to be falling short

Goldy is likely in but 400 HRs and 2500 hits would seal it

Harper looks in.

darren
15 days ago
Reply to  theduke11

Why is this one heavily downvoted?

theduke11
15 days ago
Reply to  darren

Chapman. People are insane about the DV stuff.

Antonio BananasMember since 2016
15 days ago

Hot take but there should only be like 1 reliever in the Hall from a given generation.

They are relievers because they aren’t good enough to start. This isnt the same thing as say a SS being moved all the way down to 1B because he’s not a good enough fielder. It’s the exact same skillset – pitching (and I dont buy into the “different mindset”).

There are probabaly 75 starters who would almost immediately be a top reliever.

darren
15 days ago

That’s completely sensible so it won’t happen.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
15 days ago

AB-SO-TIVELY!!!!

A Smoltz-level reliever should never make the Hall – if he had EVER had ANY shot at being a Smoltz-level starter, he’d have been put in the rotation!!!!!

Antonio BananasMember since 2016
14 days ago

Smoltz was a reliever after an injury….and yea, he was the best reliever in the game.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
14 days ago

By what measure do you think Smoltz rated as “the best reliever in the game,” from 2001-2004?

Hell…by what measure do you think Smoltz rated as “the best reliever in the game” in any of 2001, 2002, 2003, and 2004?

(Can’t wait to find out whether the measure is “Braves fandom” or “Vibes.”)

Antonio BananasMember since 2016
14 days ago

He was number 2 overall in WAR from 2002-2004 amongst relievers. Only second to Gagne.

Relievers are bench players. Only the absolute elite should be HoF

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
15 days ago

Forgot to add!

fWAR argues that if a reliever enters in the top of the 9th with out, the bases loaded, and a 2-run lead…giving up a bases clearing double, then striking out the next two batters creates more value than getting a GIDP.

rWAR argues it’s exactly the same.

I’d love to hear a positive argument for either of these value frameworks – do you have one to offer?

darren
14 days ago

Do you mean with one out above? Can you elaborate on how the value is calculated? I thought they both relied on the leverage when the pitcher enters then game, which has its own problems. This seems much worse.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
14 days ago
Reply to  darren

Good catch on the typo!

But yeah, fWAR credits the guy who gives up a double then gets 2 Ks with a Kimbrel (-2.76 FIP) and one who got the GIDP with the FIP constant (3.2-ish).

rWAR give both players 0.2 IP with 0.00 RA/9 plus a high leverage index, then tries to backfit context about the opponent and quality of the team’s defense for each one.

RE24 says that the pitcher entered with a 1.63 Run Expectancy, so the pitcher who gives up the double is tagged for -1.37 RAA (1.63-3), while the pitcher who got the GIDP is credited with 1.63 RAA (1.63-0).

Statcast’s context-based run values actually use RE288, which accounts for the count!

sadtromboneMember since 2020
15 days ago

I will plant my flag here: Eckersley, Gossage, Rivera, and Wilhelm are the only relievers that should be in the hall. If you count Smoltz as a reliever, then him too. The rest of them just don’t pitch enough.

It’s a lot easier to make it if you spent several years as a #2 before transitioning to being a fireballing reliever. It is virtually impossible to be as valuable as even a borderline hall of fame starter without it.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
15 days ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I just care more about run prevention over expectation than I do league average innings…and Wagner beats Gossage there, despite pitching literally half the innings.

Beats Chuck Finley, too.

But even if you *do* value bulk league average innings more than I do (or any analytically inclined team does), neither of version of WAR is fit for purpose in measuring reliever value.

You’d need a homebrew swapping in RE24 for RAA.

PC1970Member since 2024
14 days ago

I would put up Gossage’s 1975, 1977-1985 run to anything Wagner did. & he pitched more innings in those 10 years than Wagner did in his career.

Just a different era- He was averaging 1.5-2 innings per appearance, coming in with guys on base in the 8th, etc.

His RE24 is hurt by hanging on for 8 years after 1985 & by the one year he started (1976), which was pretty nonsensical.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
14 days ago
Reply to  PC1970

I like RE24 because it specifically credits pitchers for stranding runners while blaming the

Gossage put up exactly as much RE24 from 75-85 as Wagner did over his career, across 275 more innings.

None of this is a knock on Gossage, to be clear – it’s just context for how freaking awesome Billy Wagner was!

Johan or Saberhagen vs CC Sabathia.

PC1970Member since 2024
14 days ago

Strip out 1976 when The White Sox stupidly made him a starter & how does he look?

Answer his RE24 that year was -5.42 in 224 innings.

I’ll go back to my initial thought of putting up Gossage’s 10 year run (1975,1977-85) to anything Wagner did.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
14 days ago
Reply to  PC1970

So a 8 run (/0.8 Win) RE24 difference over 71 additional IP?

I completely agree – that’s an absolutely insane run!

Of course…how do you balance that against the fact that Wagner retired after an absolutely bonkers final season?

darren
14 days ago

But pitching more innings is harder.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
14 days ago
Reply to  darren

Pitching irregularly is also very hard – Clay Holmes is looking pretty damn good, now that he knows he’ll pitch from a clean sheet every fifth day and rest in between.

darren
14 days ago

That’s one dude though. There’s a reason that reliever and starter replacement level is different.

Last edited 14 days ago by darren
Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
14 days ago
Reply to  darren

Is it the same reason that analytically inclined teams pay ace relievers far more than either version of WAR indicates they should?

darren
11 days ago

That’s a fair point and does indicate that teams (including analytically inclined ones, as you note) may place a higher value on closers than WAR does.

But even with that, the best closers in baseball tend to get paid like #2-3 starters. This past offseason, Ranger Suarez got 5 years/$130 mil and Framber Valdez got 3/$115 mil. Those deals are higher totals and higher AAV than any closer has ever received.

So even using this standard, the very best closers in the world are nowhere near as valuable as ace starters, which are the kind of starters who make it into the Hall.

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
14 days ago

Saving three games in four days, as Chapman recently did at age 38, is easily as much of an accomplishment as starting and throwing 90 pitches every 5th day. Every time a reliever/closer gets up it includes a warm-up session so it is fair to say that, in addition to the 53 pitches Chapman threw, he threw close to that number in the bull pen and he ain’t
soft-tossing either.

Antonio BananasMember since 2016
14 days ago

Maybe we just have different perspectives.

A reliever is effectively a bench player. My Hall is purely ability. Relievers are not as good of pitchers as starters. If they were, theyd be starters (outliers like smoltz with his injury and Chapman with his preference).

Here’s a comparison: a guy who wins the NBA 6th man of the year award 5 times is still a role player. If that is their role they better be the best of their generation. Otherwise, how are you going to put a guy not good enough to start over a guy who say was a solid regular?

darren
14 days ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

And I will salute that flag!

Last edited 14 days ago by darren
darren
15 days ago

Wheeler feels like a good litmus test for whether voters have adjusted their expectations of starting pitchers. This article does a nice job of demonstrating that he’s been one of the best few starters in the game for the better part of a decade. In fact, he’s #1 in FG WAR for the past 10 years. Here’s the top 5 compared to some past decades:

2017-2026
Wheeler
deGrom
Cole
Sale
Nola

2012-2021
Scherzer
Sale
Kershaw
Verlander
deGrom

2007-2016
Kershaw
Verlander
Felix
Greinke
Hamels

2002-2011
Halladay
Sabathia
Oswalt
Santana
Vazquez

1997-2006
Johnson
Martinez
Schilling
Clemens
Maddux

1992-2001
Maddux
Johnson
Brown
Clemens
Martinez

1987-1996
Clemens
Maddux
Langston
Cone
Saberhagen

1982-1991
Clemens
Ryan
Gooden
Morris
Saberhagen

1977-1986
Carlton
Guidry
Ryan
Blyleven
Neikro

In the previous 4 decades, the #1 was guy was always a surefire HOFer (except Clemens who is not in for other reasons obviously). So you would think that Wheeler should be, if not also a lock, a safe bet, likely to make it in his first couple of chances.

Overall there were 26 who were either in, are locks when eligible, or are Clemens out of 40. That’s 3.25 per list. From the current decade, Sale seems like a safe bet but everyone else seems dicey if the voters don’t make a major adjustment in their standards.

darren
15 days ago

I’m concerned that we’re going to see fewer and fewer starters and more save-total-driven relievers elected. Yuck.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
15 days ago
Reply to  darren

Kimbrel’s the only save-driven one on offer.

Jansen and (ick) Chapman are just excellent at stopping runs from scoring, even as that excellence doesn’t translate to folks who think that only random variation can explain a pitcher producing less velocity and spin from the stretch than the windup.

PC1970Member since 2024
14 days ago

Even with being mostly bad since 2019, Kimbrel still has a lower ERA+ than Jansen.

That speaks to how dominant he was in his peak.

I’m not saying he’s HOF worthy (I’m more along the sadtrombone thinking of 4 relievers should be in), but, his career has a different arc than Jansen’s with a higher peak, less years of being good.

darren
14 days ago
Reply to  PC1970

To your point:

Nathan – 923.1 IP, 152 ERA+, 377 SV
Jansen – 962.2 IP, 151 ERA+, 497 SV
K-Rod – 976.0 IP, 148 ERA+, 437 SV
Kimbrel- 860.2 IP, 155 ERA+, 441 SV

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
14 days ago
Reply to  PC1970

Just want to shout out that Wagner put up as many 2.5+ rWAR seasons as Kimbrel and more 1+ rWAR seasons than Jansen and Chapman…in one fewer MLB season!

From my perspective, Jansen and Chapman are still in the Joe Nathan(/Appier/McGriff) zone, while Kimbrel seems to have stalled out in Papelbon(/Felix/McCutchen) territory.

darren
11 days ago

Excellent ranking.

darren
14 days ago

A couple of questions.

How much more often do closers pitch from the stretch than starters do?

Do you think HOF voters are looking at how well pitchers can produce velocity and spin from the stretch?

Do you think Jansen is getting in with, say, 377 saves? Because there’s pretty definitive proof that he’s not. Even if he reached, say 437 saves, he’s probably hanging around on the ballot at around 10% for a while and not making it.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
14 days ago
Reply to  darren

Ah, the stretch line was just a throwaway about the shortcomings of FIP, haha!

I do think he’d have a chance with 437 saves – they’ve just put in a guy with 422 (although the latter was much, much better!)

Separately I firmly believe that Joe Nathan was screwed and probably wouldn’t vote for Jansen if he doesn’t add another year of plus performance, regardless of the save numbers.

darren
14 days ago

The 437 saves is a reference to K-Rod, who’s been on the ballot for 4 years, hovering around 10-12%.

Jansen – 962.2 IP, 151 ERA+, 497 SV
K-Rod – 976.0 IP, 148 ERA+, 437 SV

Antonio BananasMember since 2016
15 days ago

I dont know how deGrom ends up in the hall.

Using B/R because I found the search easier, but shouldnt be too far off fWAR:

I looked at all pitchers with between 40 and 60 bWAR because those would be his peers. His peak actually isnt exceptional by HoF standards so I want to check him vs pitchers in his realm if body of work.

24 total pitchers. Assuming deGrom’s peak 7 stays the same, it’d rank 9th on that list.

Of the people he beats in peak:
7 were pre integration so iunno how to even compare that. 6 of those 7 were pre 1940.

Of the 8 he beat that played after integration:

Satchel Paige – all time negro league legend

Early Wynn and Red Ruffing both also had 9+ batting WAR

Whitey Ford who had an extremely high win % when that meant something and 6 WS rings

Gossage and Rivera – relievers

Jim Kaat who I guess gets a longevity bonus

Jack Morris who gets a playoff performance bonus (thats the logic I believe).

Rivera and Ford have over 53 career WAR, which is probably where degrom would end up.

Of the 8 with higher peaks

7 played pre integration and the other was Sandy Koufax who’s peak is 10+ WAR higher.

I dont see deGrom getting any of the odd bonuses like Morris or Ford and he ain’t Koufax.

Last edited 15 days ago by Antonio Bananas
theduke11
15 days ago

Kaat is a long time announcer. He got in via the Joe Torre wing – good career Plus announcing. This will be Keith Hernandez’s path if he is to make it

Antonio BananasMember since 2016
15 days ago

Would appreciate the downvote explanation. Where is my logic off? WAR in a given year compared to peers as far as I know.

DeGrom’s hall of fame peers would all either dudes who played before integration, relievers, or guys with some kind of bonus.

IMO that’s not a HOFer but happy to discuss.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
15 days ago

He’s an ELEMENTAL example of why JAWS uses 7 years rather than 3 or 5.

Truly sensational peak…but the excellence simply wasn’t sustained

darren
14 days ago

I was thinking that the default 7-year peak used for JAWS could be what was hurting deGrom, but even his 5-year peak is only around 30 WAR, which isn’t too exciting. He is second in WAR over the past 10 years, so I guess the best argument in his favor is that pitchers just don’t accumulate as much WAR as they used to.

Antonio BananasMember since 2016
14 days ago
Reply to  darren

Thats true. Maybe we can normalize it by doing WAR/% of typical innings pitched by a starter?

Say league average is 250 innings and you put up 5 WAR. How would you normalize that to compare a 4 WAR guy in an environment with an average of 170 innings?

For deGrom we may also give him an extra 2-3 hypothetical WAR given 2020 being shortened. But even then, it’s basically just 2 years (2018/2019) doing the heavy lifting on his 7 year peak.

keenejMember since 2024
15 days ago

I feel like S-JAWS is over correcting for low innings totals. I am sorry but Jacob deGrom is not Bob Feller. He is not Sandy Koufax and he is not Whitey Ford. I get that starters throw fewer innings now and that’s something that we need to take into account, but this feels like a really bad handicap where some golfers are abusing the system to get too much of a leg up.

darren
11 days ago
Reply to  keenej

There also seems to be a need for adjustment between the current generation and the one 15-20 years ago. Pettitte (1993-2013), for example, has a JAWS of 47.2 and an S-JAWS of 47.2. deGrom (2014-2026) has a JAWS of 44.6 and an s-JAWS of 44.6. It doesn’t distinguish between the two eras despite the fact that pitcher usage has changed drastically in that time.

theduke11
15 days ago

One obvious name missing who has put himself back into the discussion is Contreras. He’s moved himself into 33rd place and just had his best year. If he keeps doing that, he’ll have to be in discussion soon. If S Perez is a sentimental favorite then, Willson is just about to put him well into rear view mirror

There’s a ton of reasons not to like him but 2 more 5 bWAR years and he’s in Posey/Molina territory and with that wicked bat may hang on well into his late 30s. Also his JAWS gets much better as be adds 4-5 WAR seasons

Does he need to get all the to Mauer?

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
15 days ago
Reply to  theduke11

I’d put Contreras more in the Victor Martinez category, to this point.

darren
11 days ago
Reply to  theduke11

I don’t think he has enough of a peak, and your case for him depends on him having two more 5-bWAR seasons, a level that he’s never reached. Even with those, he’s got about 44 career bWAR and 30 peak7 bWAR. Posada has 42.7/32.6 and was a key part of a Yankees dynasty. He was one and done.

Contreras is a very longshot for sure.

darren
14 days ago

Lo and behold, Sale made a strong showing over his final three starts of 2023, capturing the attention of the Braves, who traded infielder Vaughn Grissom to the Red Sox in a straight-up exchange in December 2023 and soon restructured his contract. 

I wonder why this was included in a discussion of Sale’s Hall-of-Fame case. Just one of those mysteries, I guess.

PC1970Member since 2024
14 days ago
Reply to  darren

I just think it’s kind of a career re-cap segueway into his ATL tenure.

Easy to forget now, but, I think most people thought Sale was D-O-N-E after 5 years of injury/ineffectiveness.I know I did.

But, those 3 starts were the sign that maybe he wasn’t & credit to ATL for paying attention enough to steal him.

His 2nd act is one of the more incredible & fun stories in recent MLB history & is going to spur him on to Cooperstown.

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
14 days ago
Reply to  PC1970

My respect for Sale just continues to grow exponentially. This dyed-in-the-wool Red Sox fan was 100% in favor of the deal that sent Sale to Atlanta for Vaughn Grissom. As you correctly said, Sale was D-O-N-E in the eyes of Red Sox Nation and most saw Grissom as a solid offensive player. This deal doesn’t go down as well as getting Wilyer Abreu for Christian Vasquez.

darren
11 days ago
Reply to  bosoxforlife

I too thought he was done and was happy to get what looked like a good player back for him. What a bummer as a Red Sox fan and what a cool story as a baseball fan.

darren
11 days ago
Reply to  PC1970

Maybe. Arenado and Olson were also part of interesting trades and there was no discussion of the return for them. I guess I should just be happy we didn’t have to read more about the Mookie trade.

JuuuustAnotherBaseballFanMember since 2018
14 days ago

I like that Ohtani is last on the list for those who were skimming through the article and unsure whether or not he will make the cut. The long suspense finally ended, whew!

WaldoInSCMember since 2017
14 days ago

How do you measure a unicorn? You don’t, because unicorns are mythical creatures that don’t exist. Shohei Ohtani is not mythical; he is unique. That is the word for one of a kind.