Diamondbacks Dump Madison Bumgarner, Emblem of a Bygone Pitching Era

It’s not often that a 33-year old player still owed $34 million over two years is designated for assignment, but after a three-inning, seven run performance against the Cardinals on Wednesday that ballooned his ERA to 10.26, the Diamondbacks decided to cut bait on Madison Bumgarner. Things certainly didn’t go the way the D-Backs anticipated after inking him to a five-year, $85 million deal, as he closed out his Arizona tenure with a 5.23 ERA, 5.18 FIP, and 1 WAR in 363 innings.
As a Diamondback, Bumgarner seemed like a shell of his former self, the former Giants ace who was the hero of three separate playoff runs. His numbers went from good to terrible almost overnight, but the writing was on the wall long before he signed with Arizona. After a successful 2016 campaign that ended in his second top-five Cy Young finish, he missed about half of ’17 and ’18 with injuries, one of which was sustained in a dirt bike crash. While his surface-level results in those two seasons held steady with his career norms, his FIP climbed by nearly a full run as he lost much of the strikeout potency that made him so dominant in years past. His fastball, which once sat around 93 mph, lost two ticks and much of its whiff capabilities. The slider/cutter hybrid that he threw with near-equal frequency to the heater also started getting hit harder; batters had an xSLG nearing .500 versus both offerings in his final season as a Giant.
Despite these warning flags, the Diamondbacks still handed him a big contract before the 2020 season, where his performance began to tank. His strikeout rates continued to fall, and the good luck he experienced later in his Giants tenure faded away. It doesn’t help that Bumgarner has been characterized as unwilling to make adjustments even with diminished stuff, instead sticking with his old, clearly ineffective gameplan. In his late-30s, Charlie Morton nearly tripled his curveball usage compared to his early Pittsburgh days and had the best years of his career. Justin Verlander stopped throwing changeups with the Astros and returned to Cy Young form after some middling seasons; his teammate Gerrit Cole started elevating his fastball more, setting strikeout records in the process. Bumgarner, though, stuck with his fastball/cutter diet, despite the fact that in 2022, his four-seamer was the second-worst pitch in baseball, according to Statcast. As hitters adapted to crush his weakened stuff, Bumgarner couldn’t or wouldn’t adapt back, leading to an unceremonious end to his time on the Diamondbacks.

Arizona’s decision to move on from Bumgarner coincides with a big influx of young pitching talent. Taking his place in the rotation, at least for now, is Tommy Henry, a fellow lefty who we project as a solid backend starter. Henry had a 3.74 ERA in the most hitter-friendly environment in affiliated baseball at Triple-A Reno and should be a stopgap option until the Diamondbacks feel comfortable promoting Brandon Pfaadt, a strikeout machine who also provided considerable volume during his minor league stints. He was the third-ranked pitcher on our preseason top 100 prospect list, and ZiPS also views him in the upper echelon of pitching talents, likely due to his superb strikeout and walk numbers. With Drey Jameson and Ryne Nelson already in the rotation (both earned 50 FV grades entering the year), the team looks to have a strong staff for the considerable future.
Bumgarner’s precipitous decline from his peak powers can tell us a lot about the physical stresses of significant pitching workloads. He became an iconic figure in San Francisco history in his 2014 playoff run, especially through his heroics in the World Series, throwing five scoreless innings in Game 7 just two days after a 117-pitch shutout. That championship-clinching performance was his seventh appearance of the postseason and 40th of the season. To this day, Bumgarner is the only pitcher in AL/NL history to complete at least 50 innings in a single postseason run; no one since has even completed 37 frames in a title quest. He threw at least 200 regular-season frames in six consecutive years spanning his age-21-to-26 seasons along with his heavy playoff usage — a workload that isn’t just significant, but also close to the most in recent memory.
| Name | IP Through Age 26 Season | Max Innings In Season Through Age 26 | rWAR Through Age 26 Season | rWAR After Age 26 Season |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Félix Hernández | 1620.1 | 249.2 | 33.9 | 16 |
| Madison Bumgarner | 1500 | 270 | 24.2 | 8.2 |
| Clayton Kershaw | 1429.1 | 259 | 40.8 | 33.5 |
| CC Sabathia | 1427.2 | 258.1 | 25.7 | 36.1 |
| Matt Cain | 1368.2 | 249.1 | 26.6 | 2.7 |
| Rick Porcello | 1261.2 | 204 | 11.1 | 7.7 |
| Mark Buehrle | 1247.2 | 250 | 23.2 | 36.8 |
| Jon Garland | 1236.1 | 237 | 14.5 | 7.9 |
| Carlos Zambrano | 1216 | 236.2 | 27 | 11.3 |
| Zack Greinke | 1108 | 229 | 26.2 | 45.6 |
| Jake Peavy | 1097 | 223.1 | 20.3 | 16.9 |
| Dontrelle Willis | 1059.1 | 236.1 | 16.5 | -1.1 |
The road to high-volume greatness in modern baseball is paved by the ruined arms of incredible pitchers whose careers derailed due to injuries and the sudden, sharp decline in performance that can accompany them. Willis made just 33 starts after the age of 26, dealing with knee and forearm issues, as well as anxiety. Bumgarner’s teammate Cain was 27 when he had his last productive season, and while Tim Lincecum doesn’t appear on this list due to a late debut, he tossed over 900 innings from 2008 to ’11 and was never the same afterward.
There are some outliers here. Sabathia, Buehrle, and Greinke all contributed the bulk of their career value after age 26, and Sabathia pitched 11 more seasons after his incredible 2008 season, where he averaged 7.7 innings per game for the Brewers after a midseason trade and even started on short rest down the stretch. Including the postseason, he threw 289.1 innings that season yet still had nearly 2,000 left in him once it was over. But more often than not, the brightest pitching flames tend to burn out far earlier and more quickly compared to the general population of hurlers.
While many pitchers have thrown tons of innings in their youthful days, two names sit far atop the list: Bumgarner and Félix Hernández. While Bumgarner racked up playoff innings, King Félix never got to participate in a postseason game, at least as a player. He made up for it with an absurdly early start to his career, getting called up midway through his age-19 season and completing more regular-season innings than anyone else in the years following. In his 2010 Cy Young campaign, he faced over 1,000 batters, one of just two pitchers to do so in the last decade. For a seven-year stretch from 2008 to ’14, Hernández was arguably the best pitcher on the planet, leading the way in innings and placing on the podium in ERA and WAR. But after that, he was never the same pitcher. He was just 29 when he made his final All-Star appearance and pitched his final game at age 33, a season in which he had a 6.40 ERA.
Like Bumgarner, reports surfaced of Hernández’ reluctance to change his pitching approach, as he refused to throw fewer fastballs like his coaches suggested; in his final season, batters slugged over .750 against his heaters, which sat below 90 mph. Still, the toll placed on his body by a decade of elite pitching was immense, and it’s not clear how much was left in him after he hung up his cleats in 2019. If we just look at regular-season innings, Hernández threw over 200 more than anyone else in the new millennium, averaging nearly seven innings per start for most of his career. It’s no wonder his body fell apart so quickly, along with many others.
Clearly, teams have learned their lessons from the likes of Hernández, Bumgarner, and Cain and have significantly scaled down the usage of their talented young pitchers. They don’t debut at 19 anymore, and their pitch and innings counts are carefully watched by coaches and trainers. In 2022, just one minor league player eclipsed 160 innings (Pfaadt), and the highest big league innings total by a hurler 23 or younger was Spencer Strider’s 131.2. While Hernández threw over 1,600 innings before his 27th birthday, only one player since 2015, Germán Márquez, even got halfway there before their time as a 26-year old ended. With long-term extensions of young pitchers currently in vogue, the long-term health and effectiveness of their players is paramount, especially with a record number of arm, elbow, and shoulder injuries.
In addition to being more cautious about minor league workloads, many teams have also called up pitching prospects as soon as they’re deemed major league ready. On Wednesday, A’s hurler Mason Miller made his Oakland debut after just 28.2 minor league innings. And with a Stuff+ figure that ranked between Shohei Ohtani and Strider, it’s clear he was up to the task. Strider made a similarly quick ascension to the majors, going all the way from Low-A to Atlanta in just 94 innings and one season. (As Eric Longenhagen and Tess Taruskin described the Braves’ promotion philosophy in their just-released team top prospect list: “If you’re ready, you’re ready.”) On the other hand, Bumgarner dominated the minors for 355 innings with a 2.30 ERA, continuously establishing himself at each level. Countless promising careers have been derailed by injuries sustained in the minors, and it appears that teams don’t want to waste their pitchers’ bullets before reaching the highest stage.
Bumgarner’s time in MLB might not be over, but his final productive days are far in the rear view mirror. Still, he inserted himself into baseball legend as one of the greatest postseason pitchers of all time and was an All-Star-caliber starter on the Giants for a decade. He’s one of few pitchers whose career was almost evenly split by the league-wide reconsideration of the role of a pitcher. Near the beginning of the load-managed, Third Time Through the Order-fearing era, Bumgarner took the hill every fifth day and pitched until he couldn’t anymore, helping his team win three championships along the way. He will always be a household name in the city he brought glory to and remembered by fans around the world for his gutsy performances. But now, he’s a pitcher of yesterday, and from him, we can learn about the nature of being a pitcher of today.
Kyle is a FanGraphs contributor who likes to write about unique players who aren't superstars. He likes multipositional catchers, dislikes fastballs, and wants to see the return of the 100-inning reliever. He's currently a college student studying math education, and wants to apply that experience to his writing by making sabermetrics more accessible to learn about. Previously, he's written for PitcherList using pitch data to bring analytical insight to pitcher GIFs and on his personal blog about the Angels.
Is that chart showing there is a relationship between strikeouts and FIP? I’m shocked at this new information.
I wonder if walks have an impact…
Jokes aside: this was an awesome, insightful piece!
I still find it amazing that Bumgarner is over a year younger than Jacob deGrom (2 years in “baseball age”). Going into the 2014 season, Bumgarner already was an All-Star with Cy Young votes in 2 different years and had over 11 bWAR.
FanGraphs ranked deGrom as the #7 Mets prospect: “The Career Outlook: DeGrom, 25, has the ceiling of a No. 3 or 4 starter, especially if he improves his breaking ball.”
Obviously, no one can predict pitchers 9 years into the future, but it is still wild just how quickly Mad-Bum declined for his age.
safe to say deGrom did improve his breaking ball. To the point where his slider is one of the best pitches the game has ever seen
Did he really decline quickly? His last 3 years with the Giants should have raised enough doubts to make a 5 year deal a rather foolish risk.
yeah, his ERA- from 2017-2022 went 80-84-92-(pandemic)-110-119. Obviously he was really bad in 2020 but ignoring that weird season it was just a steady drip not a sudden drop. It’s very different from Lincecum who went from 76 to 141 in a single season
He had an 87 ERA- and a 96 FIP-, and his best FIP and healthiest year was the final one.
This is Fangraphs. I want my tables to include Fangraphs WAR, especially when it comes to pitching.
No, pitching is where fWAR is absolute joke that’s still buying into the old myth that pitchers have little control over the quality of balls hit in play.
fWAR does also include infield flyball rate – as well as home runs which are included in the FIP. So it does take into account some batted ball data.
Sure, I remember when they added IFFB in, haha!
…but pitcher BABIP stabilizes at ~1000 BIP, making it inappropriate to use fWAR for larger sample sizes than that.
Otherwise, you end up with “Silly on their face” results like Pettitte>Glavine and Greinke, Vazquez>Hamels and Lester, and Ricky Nolasco>Kyle Hendricks.
fWAR is a very useful too…but it’s also important to know its limitations!
I’d love one of the downvoters to explain with a straight face why they think Zack Greinke has yet to surpass Andy Pettitte, in terms of career value.
Because Pettitte confessed and was forgiven.
Greinke has a better FIP than Pettitte. I think the difference here is Pettitte’s innings pitched.
FIP vs RA is making it Pettitte look better than he shoul, but that isn’t the whole story.
Pettitte has a higher FIP- than Greinke!
fWAR thinks he’s trying to tack on another couple years as a below-average compiler, to make up for the fact that he couldn’t match Pettitte on a rate basis, haha.
Again, fWAR is very good at what it’s trying to do.
A season or two sample of FIP-WAR is far more indicative of a player’s true talent level than the equivalent of RA9-WAR.
In that 400-800 inning range, I’ll tend to split the difference.
But once you get past 800 IP or so, futureRA9 correlates more strongly to pastRA9 than pastFIP, and that’s real.
Using fWAR on a career basis is like using Prospectus’s position-player WARP, which thinks that Jeter’s .350 BABIP over 12600 PA was “luck,” haha.
Pettitte was a Yankee and therefore better.
Are pitchers like a tube of toothpaste, where once the innings are squeezed out, there’s no more left?
Or are pitchers like a fruit tree, where if you prune, water, and fertilize when they’re young and vulnerable, they’ll produce for a couple decades?
According to Jeff Passan’s book The Arm, at least, toothpaste. It seems like every human tendon basically has a built-in odometer.
Id argue that there are physical differences in pitchers like Greinke and Buerhle. Even to the eye, they have very easy and efficient arm motions and release points.
Felix Hernandez was awesome to watch here in Seattle, and great, but not the same type of delivery and release.
Its not just “how they were treated” that decides how long these guys will last, in my view. Id argue that its not natural to pitch that long in modern baseball, and the ones who did are rare, and special.
It’s possible to be both.
There is a toothpasty amount of innings, but careful pruning can manage that to get solid production over more seasons (even extending the overall number by not overharvesting early).
If you prune your toothpaste tube, you just end up with toothpaste all over your hands.
Can think of pruning with the toothpaste bit as making sure you use nootr toothpaste than you need at a given time.
In both cases you are maximizing the value from the “tube”.
As a former college pitcher approaching 30 playing in adult leagues, I do think it’s not very toothpasty when mechanics are good. To be fair, my lifetime total is still only a few of Bumgarner’s big seasons. But his arm motion is very long and he’s trying to ride a 88mph fastball… Failure to make adjustments isn’t the same as running out of bullets in my opinion
Yes
The Bumgarner deal is why it’s hard to take the D-Backs ownership seriously. Ken Kendrick wants to make a big push, so they sign Madison Bumgarner; Ken Kendrick wants to cut costs, so they dump Starling Marte for pennies. Instead of having Jesus Luzardo in the starting rotation, they get to eat the remainder of Bumgarner’s contract. The D-Backs front office is among the best in the sport, but you would never know that looking at the win-loss record.
If I remember correctly, they dumped Greinke’s contract only to turn around and spend the money saved on Bumgarner. Even at the time, it didn’t seem like they were interested in learning from their mistakes.
Maybe they could be flipped for Zaidi’s crew at SF.
I don’t think it’s really accurate to say he was the hero of 3 separate world series runs. 2014 was amazing for sure (best of all time, IMO) but for the other two championships, he played smaller, non-heroic roles.
Not entirely exactly. . . In 2010, Bumgarner was 21 years old and tossed 8 shutout innings in a game 4 World Series win over the Rangers. He also pitched well and won the deciding game vs Atlanta in the division series as well. There is no exact definition of what one finds “heroic”, but this could definitely qualify.
In 2012, he had two shaky starts before the WS, but he blanked the Tigers on two hits and eight Ks over seven innings in a game two victory. T’was a fairly heroic performance, on the biggest stage.
But, you are right about 2014.
Bumgarner’s career looks a lot different in retrospect. Never had a 5 win season despite the volume of innings, and is going to end up with a career 110 ERA+. Just felt like he had a reputation for being one of the game’s better pitchers for a minute there
Bumgarner WAS one of the game’s better pitchers.
From 2013 to 2016, 3rd in pitcher wins, 4th in strikeouts, 3rd in innings pitched.
10th by fwar/ra9-war/WPA.
More importantly, since 1990, only four pitchers have racked up more fwar than Bumgarner by their age 26 season. Kershaw, Felix, Pedro, and Sabathia.
well that’s what I mean. I feel like he had a reputation of being better than the 10th best pitcher in baseball
The two years after 2014, he was worth 11 RA9-WAR and 9.2 fWAR, good for 7th in the league.
He was a very good regular season pitcher, who saved some of his best for the postseason. His chance at being a HOFer was going to depend on longevity that he could match with that peak. That didn’t happen. Heck of a career. Question now is does he have any interest in trying to take his act to a new team, or will he decide it’s time to head on home with the two years remaining. I can see him making either decision, both players are very competitive, and that certainly fits Bumgarner. He may think he has something left in the tank, just as Dallas Keuchel thought the same last year.
I think Bumgarner’s career would’ve been treated a lot differently without the 2014 postseason. That run launched his reputation as an elite pitcher and spurred comparisons to Kershaw, even though his regular season performance was more in line with guys like Jose Quintana and Gio Gonzalez.
as it should, that performance was truly legendary. But the reality is that was more of a #2 starter pitching out of his mind then it was an elite pitcher pitching like an elite pitcher
To draw a comparison to another sport, he was kinda like Eli Manning. Where he could have a heater and look awesome for short stretches.
If you go “out of your mind”. . . on the biggest stage . . . you are GREAT… and that is that.
well no, otherwise there would be a lot of guys who were great in extremely small sample sizes
He really is the Eli Manning of baseball…except the Baseball HOF doesn’t give the same type of bonus points for heroic postseason rubs.
Heck, football only foes that for QBs
Eh. Dawkins took more tries than Polamalu to be inducted into the Hall, even though he surpassed him by literally every statistical measure, haha.
If Bumgarner had made it to 50 rWAR, he’d definitely have had a shot with the committees, a la Morris.
Are you saying that Dawkins was better than Polamalu? Not at football, he wasn’t.
Oh, was Polamalu a multipositional player in college or something?
Or was he was an ace special teamer?
Because if we’re talking about literally any aspect of the safety position, Dawk was much, much better.
It’s frankly an insult to Dawkins to compare in to Polamalu in pass coverage, run defense, creating turnovers, or rushing the passer.
Troy did have great shampoo commercials, I guess?
It didn’t hurt that 2015 and 2016 were his best two seasons!
I was noticing that too recently – I wonder if it’s a question of park/defense/opponent effects. Bumgarner’s glory run took place during the era in which Pac Bell heavily distressed offense, so in retrospect his raw ERAs during those years might have looked much shinier at the time than they do once adjusted. There are years in his career when the park factors in Pac Bell were in the high 80s – that’s a reverse Coors Field.
For example in 2014, the glory year, he threw 217.1 innings with a 2.98 ERA, but it’s only worth 3.6 WAR (3.7 at BBRef). The year before he threw 201.1 innings with a 2.77 ERA and it’s only worth 3.5 WAR. In 2016, he throws 226.2 innings with a 2.74 ERA, but it’s worth “only” 4.3 WAR.
Bumgarner’s peak years came in very favorable pitching environments. Again, in 2013 and 2014 the RA9avg for the games he pitched (the number of runs an average pitcher would be expected to give up given the opponents he faced with park and defense factors added) was 3.97. That’s over a run lower than what he’s pitched in front of since he came to the Diamondbacks, and 0.5-0.75 lower than what he pitched in front of with the Giants post-injury. If you look at his numbers, his strikeout and walk numbers remain pretty good for a while post-injury, but his HR numbers jump. Maybe he was more hittable, or maybe the offensive environment changed on him. Maybe both (probably both).
He was still very good – a consistent 4-WAR pitcher, which is what he was, is super valuable. He just might not have been quite as good as he seemed at the time.
This, plus the postseason heroics, largely explain everything. He was a fly ball pitcher in a park that ate home runs in an era with few homers, and Buster Posey was an incredible pitch framer. He absolutely declined but even at his peak, if you take out the postseason heroics he was not in the same league as the other top pitchers of his era.
The funny thing about Pac Bell was that they built the short RF fence so that Barry Bonds could golf homers over it all day long. Then made the rest of the park gigantic so there wouldn’t be tons of HRs flying everywhere.
But oops, the whole park became hugely homer suppressing because it was a) massive, and b) the wind off the Bay came directly over the RF fence (and through the chain link portion back when that part was open) and knocked everything down. Bonds did end up hitting a bunch of homers obviously, but only because he was crushing everything in that period – the park probably actually ended up costing him HRs in the end.
Only a loser would even speak of “taking away the post-season heroics” with a straight face, and no shame. Lame-o talk.
Well, he actually did have a couple 5 WAR seasons. From 2014-16, including oWAR, he went 4.9, 6.1, 5.3.
You factor in offense and he goes from 10th to 6th (and just 0.2 behind Price for 5th) over that 3-year period.
To me as a Giants fan, watching his career up close, it didn’t seem like the number of innings overall in general was the issue. Instead, it was specifically the April 21 2017 dirtbike injury to his throwing shoulder. It felt like he just never reliably had the easy ace dominance again after that, even before going to the DBacks.
Sad to think how his career could have been without that few seconds of time happening the way it did. Bad luck/dumb move on his part.
Before
237 G, .593 win%, 2.93 ERA, 3.14 FIP, 16.0 WPA
After
230 G, .386 win%, 4.36 ERA, 4.56 FIP, -3.8 WPA
This. You can absolutely draw a very clear line before and after. From 9+ K/9 in the 3 seasons before the accident to 8.19 and 7.57 after.
Everything else also got worse, but the K rate is the clear sign that he was never the same.
His biggest single season velo drop happened 2015 to 2016. His hard hit rate increased by pretty close to 4 percentage points every year from 2015 to 2018. His xFIP went up by the same amount, .53, both from 2015 to 2016 and 2016 to 2017. His peripherals were already on the decline before the accident, and frankly some of the perception of his drop off came from overestimating how good he actually was in his prime.
Maybe, but the called and swinging strike rate plummeted in 2017 from 29.8 to 25.9% and never got anywhere close to his peak again. In the 3 years prior, he was consistently at mid 28 and up.
Limiting it to just the five year window surrounding the injury, i.e. just 2015-2019:
Before
2.84 ERA, 3.03 FIP
After
3.61 ERA, 4.03 FIP
I don’t think the article minimises the impact of the injury. It reads to me like teams just don’t pitch youngsters as much anymore, partly for 3 times reasons and partly for preservation reasons.
Two thoughts. It One is that this doesn’t seem accurate when Kershaw and Sabathia averaged more innings than Felix and are closer to Bumgarner in innings than Felix and Bumgarner are to each other:
“While many pitchers have thrown tons of innings in their youthful days, two names sit far atop the list: Bumgarner and Félix Hernández.”
The other is that analyses like these treat MLB innings as if they wear out a pitcher’s arm and neglect minor league innings entirely. I know this is what’s usually done (and probably what I would do if I were writing the article), but it does seem important to acknowledge that other guys were throwing innings at age 19 and 20 and those innings just weren’t counted.
This is actually the key point of that The Arm book: each pitch takes its own fraction off an arm’s probable lifespan, and it’s not just pitches thrown in MLB that count, and indeed not just pitches thrown in the minors either. Pitching more as a teenager or in college before you get drafted, which players are obviously strongly incentivized by hopes of future earnings to do, also counts. You can’t predict when any individual arm is going to give out, but a group of guys who throw more innings when they’re younger will, in aggregate, have more arms that give out earlier.
I really can’t tell what this article is even trying to say about managing MLB and/or minor-league workloads for young star pitchers on the way up, but I guess if you had Bumgarner’s career to do all over again, with perfect hindsight, it’s probably fair to say you wouldn’t want him to spend so much time in the minors. Spend each pitch at the highest level you can successfully spend it, because you’re not getting it back.
Felix (and Bumgarner) remind us just how quickly some of these guys who come up so early are done, even when it seems like they’ve been around forever. Felix for example seemed like he was a top pitcher for eons, but his last great year was at age 28. Bumgarner also seemed like he was a star forever, but had his last big year at 26. Kershaw is obviously still very effective, but the last year he threw 200 innings was at 27.
“Clearly, teams have learned their lessons from the likes of Hernández, Bumgarner, and Cain and have significantly scaled down the usage of their talented young pitchers”
And as a result, pitching injuries have declined rapidly since the early 2010s… oh right, they haven’t. The stress level is the same or even higher now, it’s just more condensed. Guys throw less, but with a lot more effort. Ironically, if pitchers were forced to throw more they would probably be hurt less.
Leo Mazzone espoused this philosophy during the Braves 14 year reign as NL East champions from 1992-2005. The 3 HOF superstars, Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz had careers that border on unbelievable but I find the fact that each of them threw over 200 innings in a season after they passed 40 proof that coddling is a waste.
Well Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson did it also with big velocities. I’m not sure whether they were pacing themselves or not
Ryan and Johnson are outliers in multiple different ways
Yes max effort for fewer innings doesn’t seem to prevent injuries to a significant extent
“Clearly, teams have learned their lessons from the likes of Hernández, Bumgarner, and Cain and have significantly scaled down the usage of their talented young pitchers. They don’t debut at 19 anymore”
one paragraph later:
“In addition to being more cautious about minor league workloads, many teams have also called up pitching prospects as soon as they’re deemed major league ready”
Aren’t these conflicting statements?
I think it’s possible for all of the following to be true:
Of course they are but mutually exclusive conflicts are common when it comes to handling pitchers. There is absolutely no answer to the question of the right way to handle pitching. Never has been and, at least as of today, there still isn’t which leads to poor evaluation of today’s starting pitching. Top of the rotation starters need to be tested to see if they are capable of carrying a load commensurate with their percentage of team salary that they are receiving.
Wait Bumgarner threw 141 innings in A ball at age 18?? Lol what were they doing
Doc Gooden threw 218 innings, of top level power stuff in the major leagues, at age 19 then 276 of the greatest innings ever thrown in one season at age 20.His arm never fell off but his head exploded Everybody is so unique that it just doesn’t mean a thing!!!
Wish I could upvote this a million times.
It’s tough to separate Gooden’s arm from Gooden’s head, but his stuff began to diminish pretty quickly. His velocity slipped quite a bit in the years after his rookie season. Again, tough to say how much of that was his arm and how much of that was the drugs.
Bert Blyleven was a teenage phenom like Gooden, but pitched even more in his early career, but was able to pitch great for a very long time in spite of the early use. Mileage really DOES vary lol.
Gooden’s self-inflicted decline very well could have covered up a decline that could have happened in his 20s anyway
He also threw 98+as far back as high school. MiLB changed him a lot..
Without comparing these pitchers to the wider pitching population it’s hard to draw any firm conclusions that the drop off is anything out of the ordinary.
I take issue with the last sentence of the article. “But now, he’s a pitcher of yesterday, and from him, we can learn about the nature of being a pitcher of today.” Not that there is nothing wrong with what Kurt wrote but my problem is that this is. I believe, the 8,313th article in which I have read that comment, in various forms, since long before Sandy Koufax was forced into retirement at the zenith of his GOAT level career. Sorry Kyle but there is no answer to how to handle a pitcher. Only people who have an agenda can even try to predict who will breakdown, go on forever, lose their stuff at 29 or understand how to adapt to changes in their physicality. Pitching, probably more than any other aspect of baseball, exemplifies that it is much closer to being an art form rather than a quantifiable science. We can talk all we want about pitch shapes and obscure concepts such as seam-shifting wake but it still comes back to the undeniable fact, regardless of everything tried, that some arms are going to fall off and some aren’t and all the scrutiny that has gone into trying out why is still batting .000
Well Greinke and Buehrle work fat, throw strikes, and land square with the batter so that they foiled their position well.
Ultimately, you are right though.
In some cases though, we might be able to spot a pitching prospect with a decent chance to become a durable stalwart, but… things happen along the way.
I meant FAST, not fat. Bartolo Colon worked fat, though.
Buehrle was never one to be cutting out beers or bbq, tho
haha
David Wells said fat extends careers
No, pitchers don’t debut at 19 anymore. Instead they waste 2-4 years of their prime arm in the minor leagues so that they may never fulfill their earning potential.
I don’t think the actual age is relevant but the real answer is “When they’re ready, they’re ready’, whether it was Whitey Ford in 1950, Doc Gooden in 1984 or Spencer Strider in 2022. Teams are just terrified of making a mistake but it is never anything more than a guess antway, no matter when the player is first called up.
Good riddance
Even if we accept that a pitcher has a pre-programmed number of pitches in his arm, a foolish belief in my opinion, it is even more ridiculous to think that every pitcher is endowed with that equal number of pitches. Please let me know who has access to that number. So many of these attempts to quantify pitching durability go beyond the realm of reason. Some of the fastest pitchers of their eras have also been those who had the longest careers. Johnson was unique, as was Feller and Ryan sends those who try to explain pitching, and pitcher’s health, into a catatonic trance. There are certainly many other pitchers who could approach these greats but we never get a chance to find out. There are no answers but I think the coddling of today’s aces is futile. Probably the first grotesque attempt at coddling, and subsequent horrible failure, were the infamous Joba Rules. The lid was closed on that fateful day when Adrian Johnson’s awful call forced an aging Johan Santana to throw 134 pitches in his no-hitter. He collapsed almost immediately and with him went the complete game. I have become so cynical that when a starter who is cruising gets removed prematurely I cheer for the reliever to implode and as I write, Manoah, after 85 pitches, is yanked and Garcia spits the bit. Gotta love it!
I’m the same way. The fact of the matter is that nobody knows what makes an arm fall off with total precision, and teams today are A) pushing pitchers’ velocity and effort level higher than ever, and B) scared to find out who has what it takes to pitch 240 innings a year and who doesn’t. So they don’t risk anyone and, as a result, the transcendent and dominant workhorse starting pitcher is basically dead. Sandy is our last hope to keep the flame alive.
It is clear that claims from the baseball industry that they know why pitcher’s arms fall off are nothing but hallucinations. 20 years ago I think it was the slider, then 10 years ago it was the splitter and recently increased velocity was the culprit. Results show that any secret to keeping a pitcher’s arm attached has yet to be found and prevention at an earlier stage of development, such as High School is far, far into the Never-Never Land of absurdity. I find it quite difficult for a young man to hone his talent into skill if he isn’t allowed to throw the ball, often, fast and with a wrinkle thrown in. To reiterate what you said, it is the fear of injury, without any evidence to support it, that causes a cruising Alex Manoah to be removed and a Yimi Garcia to be brought in. This very questionable use of the best pitchers on a staff has also resulted in poor roster construction. Those extra innings the starters throw would eliminate the “need” for at least two back of the bullpen stiffs who should be in the IL or PCL with their 6.50 FIP’s. More games would be won with a couple of extra bats and a 3rd catcher to allow the manager more maneuverability than these Triple-A arms.
If you keep expanding rosters, and adding relievers to the staff, you don’t need a durable starting pitcher!
Id like it better with teams limited to an 11 man staff, and limited call ups. So it would be more challenging to manage a staff.
Now its 13-14 guys on a staff, and unlimited call-ups and replacements. They just avoided the problem of finding durable starter, by going around it with the rules.
Time for an update. Sunday 4/23, Fried, a true top of the rotation ace, 6.2 innings – 0 runs, bullpen 2.1 innings – 5 runs. Admittedly Fried had thrown 107 pitches but does anybody claim to know his limit. I feel hamstrung by the lack of pitch counts from the glory days of Seaver, Gibson, Carlton, Palmer and, The God of Unbreakable Arms, Ryan, but you can be certain that all of these men exceeded 125 in many of their starts. These inner-circle greats were all simply amazing. Firing heat, unhittable breaking balls and doing it until the game was over, then coming back year after year and doing it again. Am I yearning for something that will never come again, undoubtedly, but what I am really trying to say is that it must be a mistake to lessen the number of pitches your best pitchers throw while increasing the number thrown by the backend of the bullpen.
If I’m a organization why wouldn’t I run a young pitchers arm into the ground and let some other team sign him for his leftover years? Treat pitchers like running backs, burn brightly and go out quick.
That seems like the best approach. It wouldn’t be necessary to run them into the ground but along the way the gold would be separated from the gravel and a few nuggets would inevitably turn up. That is the way.it was done for the first 100 or more years of the game and it makes sense. It utilizes the best pitchers available for as many innings as possible during their prime. For reasons I find hard to understand teams seem unable to get an understanding of what the risk involved in this approach actually means. The spectre that the next pitch might be “The Straw That Broke the Camel’s Back” is looming in every dugout and front office and the pendulum has swung very, very far in the direction of fear. Is there an an answer? Who knows, but I can’t help but be impressed by the results that Leo Mazzone achieved during the Braves great run from 1992-2005 and that was to have his pitchers throw, then throw some more, then throw some more. This seems to make sense when one considers that working out to build strength.is considered a universal good but throwing more and more is thought to be detrimental.
I am honestly hoping that some organizations are now taking all the advanced biometric analysis that is available and profiling which guys can keep doing what they’re doing without fear of an early TJ blowout. This may dictate a custom approach for a guy like Manoah – instead of trying to get him to tweak his current repertoire to add something that may increase the injury risk, you might just focus his workouts on building arm strength and endurance through lots of throwing, and just let his focus be on continually improving his command. That’s a formula that has allowed guys like CC Sabathia to have long-term success while consistently logging a decent amount of innings every year.
The running back analogy is 100% perfect for this discussion. I honestly believe that some teams are taking a cynical version of that approach for their bullpens – train middle of the road pitching prospects to be super-efficient for short spurts, then call them up once their skills are MLB ready, then work them until their UCL snaps. Replace said UCL and repeat the process.
brutal
sounds true
“But more often than not, the brightest pitching flames tend to burn out far earlier and more quickly compared to the general population of hurlers.”
I don’t doubt this but the chart only shows one side of the coin and I’m wondering if I could be linked to some data in support of this claim.
Yes, this and workload wearing guys out was taken for granted when I think it’s very far from proven. Would like to see the evidence
These super-durable pitchers like Sabathia, Greinke, and Buehrle are like WITCHES
How do you find out if a young pitcher is a witch? You hold them underwater for 22O Inning a year when they are young, and if they don’t survive it… well, at least they weren’t a witch!
Is there a world where Bumgarner is a good pitcher but gets hero and legend postseason status just because the opposition failed? We are always so quick to say the offense was blanked because the pitcher was great but is it not possible that the offense was just bad that day? Out of all the good not great careers would it be that weird that one of them happen to run into a slew of amazing postseason “luck” where the opponent didn’t show up?
Not saying Bumgarner was a bad pitcher because he wasn’t but have to consider the other side of baseball sometimes, the less predictable side that makes analysis so fun.
Generally, speaking… no. These are playoff baseball teams. The level of competition is HIGH. If you bring it and hut down a lineup, you are a stud.
Also, keep in mind that many great players have much worse performances in the playoffs than the regular season. Bumgarner may not be great but he deserves credit for having big balls on the biggest stage. There should be no diminishing of it. He shoved.
It is just as likely the biking accident derailed his career as much as the number of innings.
Plus he, Greinke, Willis and Sabathia could hit. Another element of a bygone era
“couldn’t or wouldn’t adapt to his diminished stuff”
In Chicago, we call that “Pulling an Arrieta.”