For Chris Sale, Could 200 Wins Be the New 300?

Chris Sale is a serious Cy Young contender. This was once a fairly common combination of words to put together, but after five years of injuries and/or ineffectiveness, it seems like a very weird thing to say today. That’s where we are, though, with Sale striking out 82 batters against 10 walks over his 11 starts and 67 2/3 innings. He leads all NL starters in FIP (2.48), walks per nine innings (1.33), and strikeout-to-walk ratio (8.20); he ranks fourth in strikeouts per nine (10.91), sixth in pitcher WAR (1.9), and 12th in ERA (3.06), though both his excellent FIP and xERA (2.73, third in NL) suggest his actual mark could improve as the season goes on. And for subscribers to the old school, he’s posted an 8-1 record for the Braves, a top contender who lost their ace for the season. Indeed, Atlanta’s offseason gamble to trade for Sale is paying off well so far, and his resurgence have been paramount in preventing the Braves from falling even farther behind the Phillies in the NL East standings.
But what hasn’t been revived yet is any talk about Sale’s chances of making a run at Cooperstown immortality in another decade or so. That’s not surprising, given he lost a good chunk of his mid-career years and stands at only 128 wins and 1,848 1/3 innings — volume that wouldn’t get it done for even the most dominant of starters on a per-inning basis. We’ve long accepted that 300-game winners were going to be increasingly unlikely, but what if 200 becomes the new standard? If Sale truly has reemerged from five years in the injury wasteland, suddenly his Hall of Fame case looks at least plausible.
The 300-win standard never actually was a standard for Hall of Fame voting until relatively recently. Barely a quarter of Hall of Fame pitchers are 300-game winners and a quarter of them (six of 24) exclusively played in the 19th century, when baseball was as much a carnival show as professional sport. From 1917 to 1965, nearly a half-century that included baseball’s peak in the context of American culture, there were never more than three future 300-win pitchers active at any point. In most of those years, baseball had only one or two active pitchers who would eventually hit that threshold, typically a combination of Lefty Grove, Early Wynn, and Warren Spahn. It’s not as if this was an era in baseball history that lacked for Hall of Fame pitchers; slightly more than half of AL/NL Hall of Famers had the majority of their careers within that span of years.
To get a clearer picture, I took all starting pitchers (at least 50% of games as starters) and tracked how many per year got at least 10% support on the BBWAA’s Hall of Fame ballot. It’s not completely an apples-to-apples comparison because the rules have changed at times, but it’s not apples-to-grenades either, as the BBWAA rules have been more stable than the various Veterans Committee schemes.

The stinginess trend toward pitchers is clear. Without a lot of 300-win pitchers to vote on, voters didn’t simply shrug and decide that no pitchers were good enough; they were quite happy to vote for lots of pitchers who failed to get 300 wins, or even 250. From 1936 to 1975, the 10-election rolling average of pitchers with fewer than 200 wins to reach that 10% threshold was 2.5. A pitcher with fewer than 200 wins hasn’t received 10% of the vote since Don Newcombe in 1980. This is despite early voters having the deepest pools of players to vote for; even as Hall of Fame voting started in 1936 and players hung on ballots for 15 years instead of the current 10-year window, voters found room for these pitchers with less impressive win totals.
The 90s cluster of pitching greats are either in the Hall of Fame or off the ballot, so unless voting patterns become more like they were before the 1970s, we may have a real lack of pitchers inducted into the Hall of Fame in the coming years. That process has already started, with only 17 different pitchers ever getting 10% of the vote in 21st-century balloting. There are three active pitchers with 200 wins: Justin Verlander, Max Scherzer, and Clayton Kershaw. There’s also Zack Greinke, who at age 40 has probably thrown his last big league inning, even though he has not yet officially retired and remains unsigned. It seems very likely that all four will get into the Hall of Fame. But then what? Pitcher usage has changed considerably since that quartet debuted. Right now, there are only 11 other active pitchers with 100 (!) career wins, and none between 150 and 200.
| Player | W | Debut | |
|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Justin Verlander | 260 | 2005 |
| 2 | Max Scherzer | 214 | 2008 |
| 3 | Clayton Kershaw | 210 | 2008 |
| 4 | Gerrit Cole | 145 | 2013 |
| 5 | Johnny Cueto | 144 | 2008 |
| 6 | Lance Lynn | 138 | 2011 |
| 7 | Charlie Morton | 133 | 2008 |
| 8 | Chris Sale | 128 | 2010 |
| 9 | Carlos Carrasco | 109 | 2009 |
| 10 | Kyle Gibson | 108 | 2013 |
| 11 | Wade Miley | 108 | 2011 |
| 12 | Yu Darvish | 107 | 2012 |
| 13 | Sonny Gray | 105 | 2013 |
| 14 | Dallas Keuchel | 103 | 2012 |
Aside from the previously mentioned quartet, only Sale and Gerrit Cole have ever really come up in future Hall of Fame conversations, though Yu Darvish has an interesting-but-tricky case if voters give consideration to his seven years pitching in Japan. For the first time in ZiPS history, ZiPS doesn’t project a single pitcher who hasn’t already eclipsed 200 wins to have at least a 50% shot of reaching the milestone. Considering this, Sale has an fascinating path to the Hall of Fame. For the most part, the writers still aren’t voting for pitchers without lofty win totals, but it has become clear that the fixation on pitcher wins has decreased in Cy Young voting. This could provide an interesting preview of where Hall of Fame voting is going to be over the next 5-10 years, because year-end voters don’t have the same 10-year requirement for BBWAA membership that Hall of Fame voting does. As a result, you tend to get a younger demographic participating in year-end awards voting, and at least some of those writers will be gaining their Hall of Fame vote between now and when Sale hits the ballot. Additionally, some of the most veteran writers aren’t as active in the year-end voting, as some of them are in a state of semi or full retirement but have maintained their Hall vote. In a contrast the younger writers, some of these senior BBWAA members will lose their vote over the next 5-10 years. Call it the Baseball Writing Circle of Life.
Considering this, let’s crank up ZiPS (Hey, you had to know I was going to do this at some point!) and look at Sale’s up-to-date projections. As discussed at the top of this post, Sale has been excellent in 2024 and, just as importantly, he’s been healthy.
| Year | W | L | ERA | G | GS | IP | H | ER | HR | BB | SO | ERA+ | WAR |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2025 | 14 | 7 | 3.48 | 31 | 31 | 168.0 | 152 | 65 | 22 | 40 | 203 | 125 | 3.7 |
| 2026 | 12 | 7 | 3.78 | 28 | 28 | 147.7 | 142 | 62 | 21 | 38 | 171 | 115 | 2.8 |
| 2027 | 10 | 7 | 4.14 | 25 | 25 | 130.3 | 135 | 60 | 20 | 36 | 144 | 105 | 2.0 |
| 2028 | 8 | 7 | 4.58 | 22 | 22 | 110.0 | 121 | 56 | 19 | 34 | 117 | 95 | 1.2 |
| 2029 | 6 | 6 | 5.11 | 18 | 18 | 86.3 | 102 | 49 | 17 | 31 | 88 | 85 | 0.5 |
Even with ZiPS projecting Sale to be only healthy-ish rather than to have a late-career renaissance like Verlander, that’s another 50 wins and 10 WAR, and with the rest of 2024 added in, 58 wins and 12 WAR. That would bring his total career projection to 186 wins and 62 WAR. Excluding the quartet of Verlander, Scherzer, Kershaw, and Greinke, that’d place Sale second among active pitchers in both wins and WAR, behind only Cole. As far 200 wins go, ZiPS projects Sale to have a 45% chance to reach that milestone, and if 200 becomes the new 300, then he’s got a 45% shot at making it to Cooperstown. Obviously, it’s not that simple, but Sale might not need to get to 200 wins to get elected. When voters look at Sale’s Hall of Fame case, they’ll consider his utter dominance during his best seasons — an eight-season peak from 2012-19 — and, should his health hold up at least to the level that ZiPS projects, he’ll likely go down as one of the very best pitchers during the two-decade era from 2010-2030. That would probably be enough to get him over the hump even if he falls short of 200. This chart tells the story.
| Name | W | L | IP | K/9 | BB/9 | HR/9 | ERA | WAR |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Max Scherzer | 134 | 54 | 1673.0 | 11.3 | 2.2 | 1.0 | 2.93 | 48.5 |
| Clayton Kershaw | 122 | 46 | 1558.1 | 9.9 | 1.7 | 0.7 | 2.24 | 47.3 |
| Chris Sale | 105 | 70 | 1535.1 | 11.1 | 2.0 | 1.0 | 3.05 | 42.8 |
| Justin Verlander | 118 | 72 | 1666.2 | 9.7 | 2.4 | 1.0 | 3.16 | 40.6 |
| Corey Kluber | 98 | 58 | 1337.1 | 9.8 | 1.9 | 0.9 | 3.14 | 34.6 |
| Zack Greinke | 129 | 50 | 1592.1 | 8.4 | 1.9 | 0.9 | 2.98 | 33.2 |
| Stephen Strasburg | 106 | 54 | 1346.2 | 10.6 | 2.4 | 0.9 | 3.21 | 33.2 |
| Jacob deGrom | 66 | 49 | 1101.2 | 10.3 | 2.2 | 0.8 | 2.62 | 31.5 |
| David Price | 109 | 54 | 1454.1 | 9.0 | 2.0 | 0.9 | 3.28 | 31.2 |
| Gerrit Cole | 94 | 52 | 1195.0 | 10.1 | 2.4 | 0.9 | 3.22 | 28.8 |
| Jose Quintana | 83 | 77 | 1485.0 | 7.9 | 2.5 | 0.9 | 3.72 | 28.2 |
| Cole Hamels | 89 | 67 | 1533.1 | 8.6 | 2.8 | 1.0 | 3.44 | 27.9 |
| Jon Lester | 114 | 74 | 1580.0 | 8.3 | 2.6 | 1.0 | 3.58 | 27.7 |
| Madison Bumgarner | 99 | 73 | 1520.1 | 8.9 | 2.1 | 1.0 | 3.14 | 25.4 |
| Gio González | 92 | 67 | 1366.0 | 8.7 | 3.5 | 0.7 | 3.58 | 25.3 |
| Lance Lynn | 97 | 67 | 1308.0 | 8.8 | 3.4 | 0.8 | 3.60 | 23.2 |
| Jake Arrieta | 90 | 61 | 1249.2 | 8.4 | 2.9 | 0.9 | 3.51 | 23.2 |
| Adam Wainwright | 96 | 60 | 1229.1 | 7.7 | 2.4 | 0.8 | 3.68 | 22.6 |
| Félix Hernández | 84 | 69 | 1341.1 | 8.5 | 2.6 | 1.0 | 3.60 | 22.5 |
| Carlos Carrasco | 75 | 54 | 982.2 | 10.0 | 2.1 | 1.0 | 3.60 | 22.2 |
It’s not as if Sale’s career is missing those non-statistical highlights. While his postseason performances have been short of cromulence, he does have a World Series ring, six All-Star selections so far, and is already 27th all-time in Cy Young career shares.
Will Sale actually end up in the Hall of Fame? We’ll have to wait until he finishes writing the last handful of chapters, which is sometimes a difficult task. But I think the final story may be better than many people think.
Dan Szymborski is a senior writer for FanGraphs and the developer of the ZiPS projection system. He was a writer for ESPN.com from 2010-2018, a regular guest on a number of radio shows and podcasts, and a voting BBWAA member. He also maintains a terrible Twitter account at @DSzymborski.
If he goes in, there should be a requirement that his plaque extends a little extra to display him in a jersey cut to shreds
If he makes the cut
Yeesh! No need to be snippy!
I’m not sure it’s lack of wins making voters stingier on pitchers, but workload in general. Wins are a consequence of that.
I think it’ll take voters reorienting their imagination, and thinking of starters being more like the long relievers from the old days. All that said, 200 very well could be the new benchmark. It’s sort of shorthand for a pitcher that remained good and healthy over a long period of time.
I think the problem is that Dan’s analysis here shows that even 200 isn’t really realistic anymore. If no pitcher who doesn’t already have 200 wins is >50% likely to achieve that, then how many more will we really have for the rest of history?
Certainly not with current pitcher management and conditioning. Which makes Verlander surpassing 250 all the more astonishing. Wins may be an antiquated stat, but they’re still neat.
I’m inclined to think, (perhaps wishful thinking), that there will be future “pitch to contact” type-pitchers that’ll reach 250, maybe even 300 wins. Greg Maddux was a unicorn, but unicorns come up every now and then.
Recency bias suggests you’re correct – what we’re seeing now is just a phase. However, I think the current pitcher management is clearly more optimal in terms of team winning percentage. Unless there are rule changes to encourage guys to tradeoff intensity to go longer into games, I think we’ll probably continue on the path of fewer pitcher wins. IE, I expect it’ll require a rule change and not just normal variance of style-of-play.
I think we’ve reached a plateau in reliever usage. As relief pitching has increased, the ERA gap is now pretty negligible between starters and relievers, whereas it used to be rather wide in favor of the relievers.
I imagine some teams will start wondering if it’s worth the risk to keep an elite but somewhat-fatigued ace in the game rather than going to a fresh but inferior relief pitcher… assuming injury risk gets figured out. Which would mean harkening back to a conservationist approach, rather than max effort.
Unless they keep increasing roster size.
Perhaps, although doing so would dilute the strength of the league, so I’m not sure how that would look in practice
It’ll take voters reorienting the HOF standards. Wins aside – and I’m not disputing that the win total needs to be adjusted – but the list of pitchers above don’t have anybody that warrants HOF consideration or even discussions except for Cole and Sale.
Yes, that list is low on win totals. But low win totals is not why no pitcher on that list is tracking toward HOF induction. Correlation doesn’t equal causation in this case.
Sale already has a plausible case, as a latter day Dizzy Dean. However, the standards aren’t as soft now as they were decades ago for this type of pitcher. As of today, Sale is a little behind Johan Santana, who garnered almost no HoF support. He’ll need to do as well as ZiPS projects to have a shot, I think.
Dizzy did have postseason heroics on his side. Plus he was a colorful broadcaster. Just as a rough guideline:
Sandy Koufax – 32 bWAA, 1.5 Postseason bWPA
Dizzy Dean – 30 bWAA, No Postseason bWPA (surprising)
David Cone – 39 bWAA, 0.5 Postseason bWPA
Johan Santana – 33 bWAA, 0.5 Postseason bWPA
Bret Saberhagen – 38 bWAA,
Cole Hamels – 37 bWAA, 1 Postseason bWPA
Kevin Appier – 34 bWAA,
Dave Stieb – 35 bWAA,
Tim Hudson – 32 bWAA, 0.5 Postseason bWPA
Babe Adams – 34 bWAA, 0.5 Postseason bWPA
Andy Pettitte – 30 bWAA, 3.5 Postseason bWPA
Chris Sale – 32 bWAA
I’d personally vote for all these guys over a single relief pitcher or run of the mill “slugger”. I’m not even counting Clemens, Brown, Schilling who are easily in statistically. Chuck Finley and Felix Hernandez are also close for me.
I’ve no idea how many will actually make it, if any.
I’ll just throw out the fact that Wagner put up more RE24 than either Hernandez or Finley, in 1/3 the innings.
That said…I’d pretty comfortably put most of these guys in the Hall.
Ya relievers’ argument is that they pitch really well in really important innings.
The gap in RE24 isn’t even about the relative importance of innings – it’s about the value of coming in with one and the bases loaded and getting a pop-up and a flyout, in that order.
Using fWAR, that’s worse than giving up a double, then getting 2 strikeouts.
Using bWAR, it’s the same as giving up a double, then getting 2 strikeouts.
I think he’s got to get to 60 WAR or very close. At which point the wins won’t matter, especially if trends continue as they have been in the ~10 years from now until he hits the ballot. Getting to 2500 IP would also be a good milestone to show some bulk, despite the injuries.
Spending a last few final years as a prominent pitcher on a great team (presumably the Braves) would help too. An issue Santana had beyond his career getting cut short due to injuries / not hitting milestones is that he just sort of faded away and was forgotten. By the time he got to the ballot it was “oh yeah, him”. He spent most of his waiting period between getting hurt in 2012 and his election year in 2018 trying to get back in the game, so he never got the hagiography about the once-great pitcher nearing the end of his career, and is he HOF-worthy regardless? That stuff matters.
I think Santana will be a real obstacle for future SPs: the HoF can get more pitchers in if it starts to emphasize peak performance over volume, but there are going to be some really good pitchers with peaks less impressive than Santana’s.
When Sale is at his best, is he even close to as dominant as Dean and Koufax were, or even Felix Hernandez? I don’t think so. I think that’s the difference when considering guys with huge peaks but had relatively shorter careers. The same goes for position players as to why I support Andruw Jones (and later Buster Posey) but not David Wright.
If you’d have told me Kyle Gibson was one of the winningest pitchers in baseball, I’d have been surprised!
He’s also 6th in losses among active roster pitchers plus Scherzer and Greinke. This is less surprising
Greinke finished his career with a 59.1% win percentage – would’ve been over 62% if not for the 6-24 (!) finish over his last two seasons.
He doesn’t compare well to Verlander, Kershaw, and Scherzer right now because he only pitched something like 150 innings over a four year span. He’s got some ground to make up to even get to Sabathia or Greinke, both of whom have decent cases but are somewhat less accomplished than those top 3.
If he ends the year with, say, 4.9 fWAR he’ll be at 52.5 (three more than he has right now). With those projections he’ll still be under 63 fWAR. Greinke and Sabathia are at 66 (approximately).
Unless he suddenly discovers some magic that keeps him healthy and pitching like a 3+ win pitcher for a while, I think his best bet is for voters to get really frustrated at the state of the pitching candidates. Let’s say that Verlander, Kershaw, Scherzer, and Sale all retire right around the same time. The first three will get voted in on the first ballot, probably. Sale will get enough support to hang around on the ballot all ten years, and since there is no other pitcher who is going to be close to Sale’s career numbers the voters will repeatedly induct pitcher-less classes until they are driven crazy.
I think before they start inducting the players who are still active we are going to see a push to get some of the guys from 10-20 years ago in that fell through the cracks. It seems hard to make the case for any of these guys like deGrom and Sale when Johan Santana went 1 and done on the ballot. The BBWAA voters haven’t accepted the changes to pitcher usage from 25 years ago. They need to accept that before they can get to what is happening now.
Jansen and Kimbrel will get some serious consideration IMO
Greinke is a slam-dunk, zero-doubt, first-ballot HoF, because only an infinitesimal segment of the BBWAA uses bases their HoF votes on a 20 year old rough draft of xERA.
I think you could argue that Sabathia is also a lock, but I think it’s pretty clear that Verlander, Scherzer, and Kershaw are a cut above.
Again, the subset of accredited writers who believe the outcomes of 85 foot pop flies are indicative of skill while those of 150 foot pop flies can only be attributed random variation is vanishingly small.
(Although I was thrilled when fWAR acknowledged the former!)
The most analytics-heavy BBWAA folks are using JAWS, which puts Greinke above Scherzer…and CC in another category.
Those are two very specific outcomes of batted balls whose results don’t match the skill involved. Overall, however, the results of batted balls that stay in the park (and the home runs) do indicate a significant level of skill for both the pitchers and the hitters.
That’s why we now have stats like xwOBA and xERA and why even ERA, as flawed as it is, is still better at analyzing past pitching performance than FIP is.
Correct me if I’m wrong (genuinely!), but I’m fairly certain that the current criteria for whether fWAR treats a pop fly being caught as a result of skill or random chance is if it stays in the air long enough for the LF to call the SS off…in which case it’s the latter.
Chris Sale HoF chances I think rides on his elite K% and BB%. Sale (25.1% K-BB%) and Degrom (25.2 K-BB%) are the only starting pitchers min 800 IP in baseball over 23%. He’s at over 2,200 career K’s and per his Zips projections will get over 3,000 K’s in his career. Also, with a good season he moves up to 25th all time in fWAR among LH Starters and per Zips would finish 14th all time among lefties. If we move the needle to post WW2, he moves up into the top 20 all time and 11th all time at the end of his career. And if we move the needle one last time to modern era(last 40 years) he moves up to into top 10 all time lefty fWAR and could get to 6th by end of career behind only Randy Johnson, Kershaw, Pettitte, Glavine, and Sabbithia.
I’ve never heard of modern era being defined as the last 40-years. 1984 to 2024? That’s super random, there weren’t any changes that occurred in 1984 to warrant that year as a cut-off. 1984 compares a lot more favorably to 1954 than it does 2014.
Dead-ball requires an era definition. Integration requires an era definition. Though if it’s not considered a benchmark of an era, if you’re looking for a more modern cutoff to compare pitchers across generations, 1968 is defensible since they made a material change and lowered the pitching mound.
I don’t see any reason that Sale shouldn’t be compared to the Tommy John, Mickey Lolich, Jim Kaat, Jerry Koosman, and Steve Rogers of the world, who all have more fWAR.
And I’m super confused about your how you’re applying your cutoff rules. Steve Carlton pitched until 1988 and smokes Sale here. Tommy John, Ron Guidry, Jerry Reuss, Frank Tanana, Chuck Finley, and David Wells all have more FG WAR and are all LH SP.
Heck, Cole Hamels and Mark Buerhle are indisputably in your defined “Modern” era, and they both show more WAR on FG than Sale.
So, you’re incomplete and wrong, but that’s not the point. The point is the last 40 years is not an era of any kind. It’s the last 40 years. And you should just say “over the last 40-years”, which is a considerable amount of time.
And then you should also include the dozen or so people you missed. And if you go back 50 years, there are more, and if you go back 60 years, there are more, though again I think 1968 is a defensible cutoff.
If Sale’s pitched in “an Era” it’s the “Testing Era,” beginning in 2006.
He looks pretty okay in that company.
HoF voters are going to have to recalibrate their expectations on starters in general or none will get in after Verlander/Kershaw/Scherzer/Greinke. There is still reluctance to put in all but the most dominant relievers. If voters don’t change their standards, it’s going to become the Hall of Great Hitters and with the way offense is evolving, it isn’t hard to see it becoming the Hall of Guys Who Hit a Lot of Home Runs (and the Occasional Ichiro Type).
And Derek Jeter
Scott Rolen
All but the most dominant relievers? All the relievers are going in: good, bad or indifferent.
I agree that if Sale meets those ZiPS projection, then he has a good shot at Cooperstown. However, I have an extremely hard time buying that 168 inning projection for a 36 year old sale next year, a number that he last surpassed as a 28 year old. (Or 642 innings from 36~40 year old Sale for that matter) I would characterize it as very bullish on Sale’s health rather than only health-ish.
List of 36 year old pitchers who pitched 168+ innings (2014~) (IP from their 31~35 y.o. season)
2023 Lance Lynn (728)
2022 X
2021 Max Scherzer (889)
2019 Justin Verlander (987)
2018 James Shields (957)
2017 X
2016 X
2015 Mark Buerhle (1024), John Lackey (762)
2014 Aaron Harang (768), Ryan Vogelsong (473)
For reference, Sale has pitched 219 innings in his 31~35 year old season so far and projections have him ending with another 100 innings this season.
List of pitchers who threw 640+ innings as a 36-40 year old (2010~)
2011~2015 R.A. Dickey 1097IP
2011~2014 Hiroki Kuroda 822IP
2018~2022 Adam Wainwright 676IP
2019~2023 Justin Verlander* 566IP
2020~2024 Charlie Morton* 559IP
Verlander and Morton are included for 2020 and Morton is still adding to his total this season.
Things look really bleak if you want to see future 200-game winners the more you look at active players. The current leader in career wins for pitchers in their age 25 season and younger is *GULP* Tanner Bibee, with 14. For reference, Verlander had 46 at the end of his age 25 season. The best hope is going to be the current crop of 22 year olds, which currently consists of Kyle Harrison (4), Jared Jones (4), and Paul Skenes (2), and, if we’re lucky, Eury Perez, who has 5 going into what will be his age 22 season next year.
Strider and Bello both have more wins than Bibbee and are in their age 25 seasons. Granted it’s 32 and 20 for those guys and Strider is out for a year. Yamamoto is also a guy who could accumulate quickly as he’s only in his age 25 season as a rookie. Regardless, I tend to agree that even 200 wins is looking bleak, not that it should really matter since there are better indicators of SP value, especially given how the role has changed, but also just in general.
Something funky going on with my search. Strider was ommitted cause he’s not active and I’m not very smart sometimes, but I don’t know why Bello wasn’t included
As a Reds fan, i looked Hunter Greene and was shocked that he only has 12 wins over three season. I thought Hunter might have a chance due to starting at 22 years old. To hit 200 wins, you got have longevity and the ability to pitch into the 6-7 innings to secure the win state. The SP that gets to 200 innings pitched in a season is also going to go extent unless arbitration starts to award SPs who hit that mark compared to those with huge strikeout totals.
The number that matters is 3000. I look forward to seeing him reach Cooperstown. One hell of a player.
He’ll never get that many hits!
It’s fine to say we need an adjustment in expectations, and I think it already is being adjusted. But even then how many starters are going to be deserving, really? If nobody pitches 200 innings and half of good pitchers are missing 1 year out of every 4 seasons with injuries, even the best ones will have a hard time to feel deserving, no matter what your adjusted expectations are.
I’m not seeing why 200 IP matters. Jacob DeGrom pitched 191+ innings 4 times. He’s still been more valuable than almost every hitter over the past 10 years.
200 doesn’t matter per se,not making the point on 200 specifically as a decline of innings in general. There won’t be many going 180 in too much longer at current trends
The way things are trending, I think the 200 win pitcher will be extinct after Cole, Sale, and/or Nola are done.
Unicorns exist and one will come along eventually.
Unicorns don’t have to be a freak talent though. The person with the most wins since 2020 is Chris Bassit. That’s 2 years in OAK, 1 as a NYM, and 1 and change as a Blue Jay. The A’s were good in the short 2020, and the Mets won 101 the year he was there. But that also includes 3 mediocre teams that finished 3rd, 3rd, and currently in last.
Chris Bassit has 3 more wins than the next two guys, both of whom haven’t even pitched this year – Cole and Urias. And he did this in his age 31 to 35 seasons. And there is no outlier. Bassit leads in wins since 2021, his age 32 to 35 seasons. He leads in wins since 2022, his age 33 to 35 seasons. And he leads in wins since last year, his age 34 and 35 seasons.
There are more young guys who have a chance. Julio Urias isn’t dead, he’s 27, and he has 60 wins. Framber Valdez and Max Fried both have late starts, but have been gobbling up wins and are closing in on 70 at age 30. Thanks to a relatively early start, Jose Berrios turned 30 last week, and he has 88 wins. Logan Webb got a later start, but he’s 8th in wins since he started pitching full time in MLB and has 47 at age 27. Gallen will have 60 to 70 wins when he becomes a free agent after age 29 and can sign with a team that actually wins. We’ve seen teams like CLE and SEA hand jobs to SP beyond Bibee. Logan Allen is 25. McKenzie is 26. Woo is 24. Miller is 25. Skenes and Jones in PIT are both 22.
200 wins isn’t dead, and there is no question about it, there will be more than one that comes from players playing today, not named Nola, Cole, or Sale.
I’d say it’s highly unlikely any of them get to 200. Before this year I thought Cole had a chance but will be rough sledding now. He’s got the advantage of playing for a team that accumulates wins though
One of my favorite baseball stats: In 1875, Al Spalding became Major League Baseball’s first 200 game winner; he retired after the 1877 season. In 1880, Tommy Bond became Major League Baseball’s second 200 game winner.
Every single season since 1880*, there has been at least one active pitcher with 200 career wins. If Gerrit Cole doesn’t get there before Verlander, Kershaw, and Scherzer retire, that 145 year long streak will end.
*- Bobo Newsome, the only active 200 game winner at the time, did not pitch in the majors in 1949, when he threw 237 innings for the Washington Senators’ AA affiliate. He was briefly on the Senators’ roster, although he did not appear for them that season; he kept pitching in the minors in 1950 and 1951, eventually making it back to the Magor Leaguses for the 1952 and 1953 seasons with the Senators and A’s.
Any stat that involves a 145-year-long streak AND Bobo Newsom gets my upvote.
This is one of many reasons why I just can’t bring myself to care about the hall of fame any longer.
Whenever a discussion or article talks about modern major league workloads for pitchers, my thoughts always go out to one of my favorite pitchers of all time Livan Hernandez. He was intentionally abused by workload his entire career and he loved it. Nearly every season well over 200 innings and lead the league in innings and complete games frequently. But how much more dominant would he have been if someone had tempered his workload is something I wonder. With 34 fWar over 17 seasons, He is soundly in the hall of very good. I say Hall of Fame talent was likely there. He just pitched exhausted and in pain most of the time.
I don’t know. The problem I have with this has nothing to do with pitching or defense as those have markedly improved over the last 30 years, especially given the advent of sabermetrics. Before you lower the bar of pitching win totals, I would say the pendulum needs to swing back the other way for offense. Because as we all know, there is two ways to get defense 1. excellent pitchers and catchers, 2. the other fielders 3-9, but there is only one way to get offense. The mentality has been don’t swing the bat unless you are doing damage and smack a double or HR. Never mind that singles are a great outcome, and any way to get on base is useful from the prospective of being able to cycle through the lineup more times. Contact DOES matter, moving runners over even if you get out, sacrifice flies etc. That is why I created 5 stats, HEWCO, bases moved/bases caught on offense, and bases saved/bases allowed on defense. The corollary is this idea that strikeouts don’t matter is a horrible mentality. Now you got guys striking out 200 times a year, and the batting averages from position players are living on the Interstate, when you just got rid of pitchers batting, so what’s the difference? The problem, is that supporting the pitcher with offense is the only way a pitcher can get a win. To me, the offensive philosophy needs to change and go back to the decade of the 1980’s. Color me old fashioned and stupid, but its still a team game and more strikeouts than hits for the year in 2024 is pathetic.
Speaking of pendulums, the strikeout pendulum swung too far. Used to be, strikeouts were judged way too harshly. A strikeout isn’t the worst kind of out. A double play is twice as bad, for instance.
But it’s also not the same as any other out, as we’ve heard people say. A strikeout is not the same as a groundout that moves a runner over. There is no universe where that argument holds up. It’s not the same as a sacrifice fly that moves a runner over.
The only time when a strikeout is almost the same as any other out is with two outs. But even then, it’s not equal, because a ball in play has a chance to force an error and a strikeout obviously doesn’t.
We need the pendulum to stop it’s motion and find a place in the middle. I hated when strikeouts were judged too harshly, and I hate that people defend them and actually think they’re the same as any other out today. Neither were true, are true, and won’t ever be true.
RE24 forever!!!
Technically, a strikeout is only the same as any other out with 2 outs and first base occupied, otherwise it’s actually slightly MORE valuable due to the third strike rule in which it may not be an out at all.
Though, I completely agree with your overall point.
Have you heard of RE24?
It’s essentially a version of wRAA that doesn’t view a Sac Fly and a Strikeout as equivalent outcomes while evaluating a hitter’s value.
“For the first time in ZiPS history, ZiPS doesn’t project a single pitcher who hasn’t already eclipsed 200 wins to have at least a 50% shot of reaching the milestone.“
That can’t be right isn’t it? Gerrit Cole is 3/4 of the way there and is very much in the heart of his career. He’s gotta be considered way over 50% to hit 200, no? Looking at his FG page, ZiPS has him projected for nearly 30 wins just thru 2026…
Do I just totally misunderstand what Dan’s saying in that sentence?
The uncertainty from injury has cost him a good chunk. His 50th percentile has dropped to 198.
I just feel that Chris Sale almost doesn’t even quite make it to the Tim Lincecum level as a peak and valley guy. Lincecum got two Cy Youngs, three World Series titles, four All-Star games, and two no hitters… and then kablooey. No one thinks Lincecum is a Hall of Famer, right? Sale only has 18 more wins and approximately 500 more strikeouts than Lincecum, so unless he gets some Cy Youngs, no hitters and/or more WS titles, I just can’t imagine putting him in the Hall over Lincecum if one is to try and ignore Sale’s bumps along the way.
We can’t make 200 Wins the new standard unless we’re prepared to put Adam Wainwright in the Hall of Fame once he becomes eligible.
Which wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world!
Ultimately a rethink on SP will either need to happen or we won’t be getting many in the Hall. Buerhle is a good place to start. Then Jon Lester and then Adam Wainwright.
Each of them has a reason. Buerhle actually has 215 wins and 60 WAR. Lester led the Sox and Cubs Championship teams. Waino has soem eclectic reasons: high Cy young share number, 200 wins, Clemente award, one team player, the battery record (with Molina).
But unless something changes none of them will get close and that will be the fate of all those who come behind them.
Buehrle’s case gets even stronger on the margins and I think he eventually gets voted in by the Veteran’s Committee. 215 wins; 60 WAR; a no-hitter, perfect game, and another game in which he faced the minimum – making him the only pitcher in modern history to do it three times; 14 consecutive seasons of 200 IP+; a World Series title; and winning 4 Gold Gloves as one of the greatest fielding pitchers ever while also having one of the best pickoff moves in MLB history.