In Detroit’s Valley of Darkness, a River of Hope

Something about the the gut-wrenching way Tarik Skubal’s final Tigers start ended — with Detroit coughing up a big lead as it desperately clung to its playoff hopes — made it easier both to accept that he’d be traded and to understand that dealing him would probably be the right move.
Indeed, it was a sobering microcosm of the team’s season for Skubal’s final inning to end awkwardly rather than in triumph, and then for things to go sideways in unexpected fashion. Like a lot of us, I picked the Tigers to make a deep postseason run. For several reasons, including so that I might look smart (not dumb, like they say, but smart), I hoped during the last several weeks that the Tigers would stay hot enough for it to make sense for them to keep Skubal. As the schedule reached this weekend’s checkpoint, and Detroit stumbled deeper into a very crowded AL Wild Card field, it became clearer what the front office had to do. Late on Saturday night, the Tigers traded Skubal to the Dodgers for Triple-A starting pitcher River Ryan, Double-A outfielder Zyhir Hope, and Low-A pitcher Brady Smith.
This is a standard return for an ace rental: three prospects, where one or two of them are comfortably Top 100-caliber talents, and a third that is either imminently useful, or (in the case of this trade) a deep projection player with exciting upside. When viewed from the Dodgers’ perspective, considering the context of the rest of their farm system (which has a ton of good outfielders) and their big league pitching situation (which doesn’t clearly have an immediate rotation spot open for Ryan) in mind, this is not a lot to give up for one of the few available big leaguers who can actually move their competitive needle. When viewed in an even more detailed light that includes the knowledge of the depth of other contenders’ farm systems, though, it feels like an even more reasonable price to pay. In this piece, I’ll examine what each of the new prospects brings to the table, explore how they fit into Detroit’s dream of continuing to contend (including this year), and consider whether Skubal’s other potential suitors could have reasonably done more to top this package.
On River Ryan
As our industry’s scoopsters pursued Skubal chatter in the days leading up to the trade, one of Detroit’s priorities was reportedly to land major league-ready starting pitching in this deal, and the club accomplished that with Ryan. A middle infielder and closer at Division-II UNC Pembroke, Ryan was selected by the Padres in the 11th round of the 2021 draft as a redshirt senior who turned 23 before he had even thrown a pro pitch. He DH’d a few times on the complex after the draft, but it was his work in an offseason bullpen session that impressed Padres pitching instructor Steve Lyons — right before Lyons left the org and became a scout for the Dodgers. MLB’s work stoppage from the end of 2021 through early March 2022 narrowed early-spring scouting looks exclusively to minor league players. It was during this window that pro-side scouts saw Ryan and immediately identified him as a sleeper prospect to target from the Padres because of his special athleticism, gorgeous delivery, and yet-to-be-refined pitch mix, the last of which could be explained by his career up to that point — injuries, two-way duty, small-school development — and provide reason to believe he was just scratching the surface. Before the regular season even began, before Ryan had thrown in a regular-season game as a Padres minor leaguer, he was traded to the Dodgers for corner infielder Matt Beaty. Here is the only footage I have (and the lone public footage I know to exist) of Ryan as a Padre, from October 2021.
By the end of his first pro season, Ryan had leapt from “developmental sleeper” all the way into the upper reaches of the Dodgers prospect list. In 2023 and 2024, the Dodgers hit the gas on Ryan’s innings count and promotion pace. He became a top-50 prospect in the sport and made his major league debut in July 2024. Then his UCL blew out.
He had Tommy John surgery in August 2024, which cost him all of 2025. Late last fall, once Ryan was at the point in his rehab where he could get on a mound and air things out, he looked awesome. The 2026 season would surely be the one in which Ryan, who turns 28 in two weeks, would seize hold of a big league rotation spot, right? Instead, Ryan has dealt with multiple hamstring issues this year, and though he’s looked great when healthy (more on that in a moment), these ailments not only prevented him from toeing the rubber at Dodger Stadium, but they’ve also prevented him from stretching out to work a starter’s load of innings for longer than three weeks at a time.
Healthy Ryan looks like a good team’s no. 2 or 3 starter. His fastball sits 96-100 with uphill angle and life, missing bats at an elite rate (34% this year). His four- and two-seamers have meaningfully different movement. Though his curveball is his only secondary pitch that has ever been able to generate plus miss, all four of them — an upper-80s slider and changeup, a mid-90s cutter, and low-80s curveball — have sharp, late movement and induce very weak contact. None of those pitches has surrendered an xwOBA higher than .240 when you combine Ryan’s 2024 and 2026 seasons of data to create a meaningful sample. Had he been healthy, Ryan would likely be in the Los Angeles rotation right now, maybe even ahead of some of his more famous teammates. At the very least, he would have played an integral role on a Dodgers postseason pitching staff.
As a person who has lived through Jacob deGrom, Nelson Cruz, Max Muncy, and many others older breakout guys, I don’t care all that much that Ryan is 28 when trying to project him out another five or six years and comparing him to other rookies on a prospect list. He is the major league-ready impact starter that the Tigers were hoping to get back in this trade. Is he likely to be a 6-WAR Cy Young type? No. But he should be a 3-WAR starter for most of the next half decade.
If he stays healthy.
The injury stuff here goes beyond the 2024 Tommy John and this year’s hamstring issues. Ryan fractured two vertebrae in high school. In college, he collided with a teammate and fractured his orbital bone, dealt with thoracic outlet syndrome, and missed several months to have a rib removed. He also experienced shoulder trouble in 2024 prior to his UCL disintegrating. These injuries are concerning, but it’s also kind of amazing how good he is given how little time he’s had to pitch and develop.
The Tigers are going to be able to use Ryan as soon as he’s healthy, and it would not be shocking if he were somehow still part of a playoff push this year. Their team is still very talented, their division — and the American League in general — is still muddy and mediocre, and baseball is still baseball. As I worked on the Dodgers Farm System Buyer’s Guide last week and talked to ops folks, a source told me the Dodgers were expecting Ryan to return from his most recent injury toward the end of August. He may come back late enough that he’ll retain rookie eligibility for another offseason, keeping him under club control for the next half decade.
It’s reasonable to wonder if Ryan’s decline phase will begin before his years of team control are complete, but for the next several years, he is now part of a rotation that, at the start of the season, many of us believed to be of World Series quality. Jackson Jobe is returning from injury soon, Reese Olson eventually will, Troy Melton is outstanding, Keider Montero has been efficient when given opportunities, and all of these guys have yet to enter their arbitration seasons. Though it is less clearly a World Series-contending rotation without Skubal and (presumably) Casey Mize, it is still a playoff-caliber group that should be relatively whole by the time Ryan returns, and even more so next year.
Zyhir Hope
Hope is the second-best prospect in the deal in my view, but certainly talented enough that you can feel free to call him a co-headliner. Drafted by the Cubs and signed away from a North Carolina commitment for just $400,000, he was part of the return package for Michael Busch during the 2023-2024 offseason. A shoulder injury limited Hope’s first full season of reps in 2024, but in the little bit of time he was healthy, he was hitting for sensational power (with elevated strikeouts) in the Low-A Cal League and Arizona Fall League.
When he arrived for his first Dodgers camp in Arizona in 2025, he was 40 pounds heavier than what he weighed for his initial player page specs (which continue to list him at only 193) because he had become much, much bigger and stronger. During 2025 spring training, Hope hit a ball 108 mph — in the cage, the opposite way, off a freaking tee. Assigned (very aggressively) to High-A Great Lakes when camp broke last year, he performed well above the league average even though he struggled with fastball whiffs. Hope managed only a 69% contact rate against them in 2025, which means he was missing High-A fastballs as often as hitters miss River Ryan’s heater, at roughly two standard deviations worse than the big league average. Despite this statistical indication of risk, and the fact that Hope’s added size was contributing to a slide down the defensive spectrum into below-average corner-outfielder territory, we chalked this issue up to a lack of prior experience and left an everyday grade on Hope on the Dodgers list in the fall, and on each subsequent update to the Top 100 list and org rankings.
This year, as Hope crushes Double-A at the age of 21, he has improved against fastballs. His contact rate is up from 69% to 78%, he’s cut his miss by a third, and he shows virtually no split when you isolate his performance against average big league velocity or better, which is pretty incredible. Aside from his spray against fastballs looking quite different than it did in 2025 (it’s much more opposite-field oriented this year), there hasn’t been a swing overhaul here or anything like that. A Dodgers source once told me they thought Hope had “a natural capacity to adjust,” that he just feels things out and can improve through exposure. He’s a good hitter with special strength and is going to provide potent power production in the 120 wRC+ area, with a couple of 30-homer seasons in the tank so long as the adjustments he seems to have made against fastballs this year represent a sticky, sustainable improvement.
His timeline for arrival likely begins in the middle of next year. He doesn’t have to be put on the Tigers’ 40-man roster this offseason. Fellow Top 100 Prospect Josue Briceño does, however, and he will likely be given an opportunity first should the Tigers need a corner power bat in their lineup. It’s possible Hope will crush in Toledo and kick down the door, but mid-June seems like the earliest possible moment the Tigers would feel justified in accelerating his roster clock ahead of its chalk 2027 timeline. The stretch run of next season, late enough that Hope would carry rookie eligibility into 2028, makes more sense. There exists a possibility that Ryan (who could return late enough to retain rookie eligibility into next season) and/or Hope, might net the Tigers a Prospect Promotion Incentive draft pick in each of the next two years via Rookie of the Year wins. The chance is remote, of course, but they’re on track to get two bites at the apple. And that’s before you consider the likelihood that Kevin McGonigle, the current major league rookie leader in WAR, could win the award this season.
Brady Smith
Finally, Smith was a favorite of mine from the 2023 Draft Combine, an athletic righty with plus fastball ride and advanced secondary pitches. The Dodgers got a deal done with him for just over $700,000 knowing Smith would need Tommy John during the 2023-24 offseason. Smith looked great for an inning or two at a time when he returned (and was a Pick to Click for me entering the 2025 season), but he developed forearm tightness in extended spring training and wasn’t sent out to an affiliate until late June, after which he was very wild.
This year, Smith has been better. He hasn’t had his peak velocity as he’s stretched out to work starter’s innings, but he’s throwing strikes and dominating with his changeup. I wrote more about him in that Dodgers buyer’s guide, but, in short, Smith has mid-rotation upside but is likely two or three years away from debuting, let alone actualizing his ceiling.
Where This Leaves the Tigers
As of this writing, the Tigers now have the third-most-valuable farm system in baseball, even though McGonigle is no longer considered a prospect. And, if Max Clark remains up for the rest of the season, McGonigle won’t be the only top-10 prospect in baseball that the Tigers will graduate by the end of the year. As I mentioned earlier, McGonigle might win Rookie of the Year and Dillon Dingler will get MVP votes.
Meanwhile, the dropoff from Skubal to anyone else is a downgrade in the rotation; the Tigers no longer have a guy who can, on his best days, win them the game on his own. His departure is a huge blow to their roster. They’ll need to replace him this year with some combination of a rehabbing Jobe, an elongated Drew Anderson, and hopefully a healthy Ryan. Even combined, that trio isn’t Tarik Skubal, but it’s also not bad. Detroit could still move pending free agents Mize and Gleyber Torres before the deadline, and it’s possible that the club exchanges them for near-ready prospects rather than younger ones. Considering all of this, I think there’s a chance Detroit stays in the AL Central mix this year even without Skubal.
What Could Other Clubs Have Done?
I am aware of, and internally participating in, the consternation around the Dodgers’ acquiring yet another marquee talent, even though I realize some of the others they’ve netted recently are producing like ordinary joes. I, too, wonder what other offers might have been, how much more other teams might have needed to add to present a better package, and whether or not that price would feel doable for me. This is especially true for both the Rays and Brewers, who boast contending major league rosters and the two best farm systems in baseball. Young, controllable big leaguers mean so much to these teams that they absolutely value them more than other clubs who are more readily able to traffic in expensive free agents.
In Milwaukee’s case, I think it was always going to be tough to swing this one. It would not have been smart for the Brewers to part with Jesús Made for two months of Skubal. Their next best prospects are either not as talented as the Ryan/Hope combo, or they do not meet Detroit’s desire for MLB-ready pitching. I have a hard time thinking the Tigers would have wanted Luis Peña to be the centerpiece of a trade in a year when he’s missed substantial time after collapsing in the dugout due to dehydration.
As for the Rays, while I understand they would be reticent to part with any of their top two or three prospects, their organizational depth is so ridiculous that they can’t possibly keep them all. While you still run into the talent gap problem (I think Ryan is considerably better than all but maybe one of the major league-ready pitchers in Tampa Bay’s system), it’s possible the Rays could have been creative and involved a third team. Team Three would need to be willing to part with a player the Tigers love and be motivated to collect a heap of mostly baked 45s and 50s from the Rays. This is all a hypothetical, magically made-up situation, of course. Given how late the Tigers had to give the team a good faith shot to claw back in it, it didn’t leave a lot of time for something this elaborate to come together.
Eric Longenhagen is from Catasauqua, PA and currently lives in Tempe, AZ. He spent four years working for the Phillies Triple-A affiliate, two with Baseball Info Solutions and two contributing to prospect coverage at ESPN.com. Previous work can also be found at Sports On Earth, CrashburnAlley and Prospect Insider.
Braves could have sent Ritchie, Fuentes and Sinnard or something like that. Skubal would make a bigger difference to the Braves than Dodgers
Been saying this, but the Dodgers vs lefties wRC+ is “only” 101 or something like that depending on the day.
With Sale, Skubal, and then Lee in the bullpen, I dont think the Dodgers beat Atlanta
I mean it’s baseball so yes they def could have been lost. They still would’ve favored. But it def would have helped them
Oh man 3am mimosas at the airport don’t help my already poor grasp on the English language
I hope this is a sign that y’all are letting Baumann write all the headlines now.
I completely agree with taking River Ryan over Emmet Sheehan, as I am a firm believer in the value of the fastball, but it is wrong to wave away concerns over Ryan’s age.
According to Jeff Zimmerman’s aging curves data from 2020, 28 is the exact age when fastball velocity, strikeout rate, walk rate, HR/9, and BABIP allowed all start to get significantly worse. Granted, those are macro trends that won’t necessarily apply to Ryan, who obviously has significantly less mileage on his arm than a normal major league pitcher, but 28 is a consistent threshold for athletic decline across numerous sports because of physiological changes that occur in the late twenties.
Oxygen uptake declines, type II (fast twitch) muscle fibers decrease, and tissue regeneration starts to take longer. The body changes around that age. It matters, especially since we’re valuing Ryan not just on what he might contribute in 2027 but also the three years after that. The fastball that makes him compelling despite his age is going to start declining because of his age, and it may decline rapidly. We just don’t know what that is going to look like during his arbitration seasons, which is why skeptical comments regarding his supposed prospect value are completely warranted.
The Detroit Tigers have bought the decline phase of a guy who, while he has obvious potential, has not yet established a valuable peak.
I know it’s anecdotal, but case in point after watching Mitch Keller yesterday:
https://www.fangraphs.com/players/mitch-keller/17594/stats/pitching
Can you really use an arm mileage argument when the reason is he can’t stay healthy enough to use his arm?
River Ryan might be giving Ethan Salas a run for his money in the competition for “most polarizing prospect” here at FanGraphs right now. A highly touted prospect who has pitched 36 professional innings the past two years seems to amount to a Rorschach test to the commenters here.
I honestly don’t think Ryan’s particularly polarizing to readers. Seems almost all of us here have been down on him compared to scouts for a long time.
Polarizing between us and Eric, I suppose.
I said this earlier I think that not since Miguel Bleis has there been this much pushback from commenters on a prospect of this caliber.
Eric knows way more about baseball than I ever will and I have to take his word that he has front-line stuff. But this might be the riskiest prospect in AAA that I can remember. There are warning flags everywhere.
I guess I’ll be the polarizing guy. Nobody really has any basis for giving him the arrow down treatment outside of his age, which is totally unrepresentative of the number of innings he has on his arm. His career trajectory is going to be unlike almost any other player before him, so it’s almost intellectually dishonest to just stick him on the population-level aging curve and let that do the arguing for you. Maybe he isn’t the best 55 FV to exist, but that grade is totally justified.
I am not sticking him on the population-level aging curve personally. My issue is that he’s at this age and still has yet to show he can even put up a reliever’s workload, let alone a starter’s. The man cannot stay healthy. I would argue that saying that’s not a reason to point the arrow down is disingenuous.
Most of the criticism I’ve seen (likely not representative) has centered around his age, not injuries. So that’s a fair point I suppose. But it’s also pretty easy to counter: every pitcher is an injury risk and the Dodgers break their toys more than most.
I strong disagree that you can counter this with “every pitcher has injury risk.” Some have far more than others.
Making an irrational excuse doesn’t mean that you countered anything. Every pitcher being an injury risk is completely different from pretending that every pitcher has a similar injury risk. River Ryan has only pitched 223 innings combined over the last five seasons.
The max number of innings he’s ever pitched in a season is 104. How many innings can they realistically ask him to pitch next season given his injury history? 130? He’s going to be 30 before you can reasonably expect him to have a normal starter’s workload of 160 innings.
Pretending that the Dodgers don’t do this to every pitcher they get their hands on is equally irrational. I don’t think it’s necessarily possible to tease out whether Ryan is injury prone or if he’s just been a casualty of the system. I’ll get downvoted to hell here in the FanGraphs echo chamber but no one here has the slightest idea of whether his injury concerns will continue in Detroit or not.
If this were just about his arm you’d have a point. It’s not just his arm.
So his hamstring is what’s keeping him from being a 55 FV? Maybe I just wasn’t aware of where the goalposts were when this started, but it definitely doesn’t feel like they’re stationary.
It’s his everything. He had a ton of health issues even before he became a full time pitcher. And whatever the Dodgers did to unlock that wicked stuff is wrecking his body. His stuff is going to need to get dialed way back for him to stay healthy…if it hasn’t already done enough damage to his body.
The Dodgers acquired Jackson Ferris in the same trade where they acquired Zyhir Hope. Since the start of the 2024 season when he joined the organization, Ferris has pitched 321 innings. For comparison, Ryan has pitched 60.2 innings during that same time frame.
The idea that the Dodgers break pitchers is so absurd that it shows you know nothing about the Dodgers and you know nothing about pitcher development. They aren’t breaking pitchers, they are more willing than most organizations to take pitchers with an already elevated injury risk because they prioritize stuff over durability.
Tyler Glasnow was already a massive health risk before the Dodgers traded for him. Blake Snell was already a massive health risk before the Dodgers signed him. Brady Smith was already a massive health risk before the Dodgers drafted him. L.A. isn’t causing their pitchers to be health risks. L.A. has an increased tolerance for risk that makes them willing to acquire pitchers with elevated health concerns.
This isn’t a question of disagreement. What you’re saying is not a difference of opinion. What you’re saying is absurd and ignorant. You don’t know what you’re talking about, so you should listen to people who know more than you do.
This part is actually true. We do not know if Ryan will continue to get injured with the Tigers, but his history of injuries gives us reason to believe that he is at significantly enhanced risk of doing so.
Okay buddy, let’s chill and agree to disagree. Not interested in doing the ad hominem thing with you.
No, we cannot agree to disagree because what you’re saying is fundamentally wrong and I need you to understand that. The Los Angeles Dodgers are not breaking pitchers, which is what you claimed. They are more willing than other organizations to acquire pitchers with already high health risks because they prioritize stuff over durability.
Saying that you don’t know what you’re talking about is not ad hominem, it’s an attempt to get you to understand that what you have written in the comments is factually incorrect.
Dodgers pitchers break. Whether that’s something they’re doing in dev or the type of pitcher they seek out, it happens. That’s all I have ever been saying. You’re welcome to keep crashing out over it, though.
You said: “Nobody really has any basis for giving him the arrow down treatment outside of his age.”
People then pointed out Ryan’s extremely concerning injury history. Because you have shown that you’re not capable of admitting when you are wrong, you then attempted to make an excuse for your mistake by pretending that Ryan’s injury history was somehow attributable to the Dodgers and wouldn’t continue with the Tigers.
You said: “Pretending that the Dodgers don’t do this to every pitcher they get their hands on is equally irrational.”
I then pointed out the very impressive number of innings that Jackson Ferris has pitched over the last three seasons, directly refuting your claim. I also attempted to explain that the Dodgers are not breaking pitchers, that in reality, they are more willing to acquire already broken pitchers than other organizations.
What you have been saying is objectively false. Please listen to what we are telling you.
I think it’s an open question whether the Dodgers and their pitching health outcomes is a selection or a treatment effect, but I am not sure it matters that much. Any way you look at it, I don’t see how he is going to stay healthy without serious changes.
Just want to say I’m here for the jdbolick demon mode arc
I think you’re missing one of the points in bringing up his injury history.
There’s the obvious one: he’s been hurt a lot, which suggests he’s going to get hurt again. How much weight you put on that is a choice, I suppose.
But the other point being made is that, because of the injuries, he’s going to take a couple years to get up to a starter’s workload even if he’s healthy. The front-loaded value is already diminished regardless of his health going forward.
I think the Tigers did just fine for a rental, even of Skubal’s caliber. But Ryan has a ton of risk in his profile, and a limit on his value in the near- and medium-term. I do question the Tigers’ insistence on getting a MLB-ready pitcher back — I would rather have seen them try to get the most value, period, even if it came in a different form.
Another issue is that he has already burned through a year of pre-arb time on the 60-day DL. He’s still rookie-eligible but, assuming he sticks on the major league roster, his three arb years start in ’28.
Maybe that works in his advantage? Get it out early
Only if you overlook injury risk. I don’t care about his age, I care that he can’t stay on the field.
Polarizing is probably not quite the right word, yeah, at least among readers. Most seem skeptical of the prospect lists and are leery of the injury history.
But there seem to be a lot of different opinions about him: some think he might be destined to never amount to much because of injury, some think he should become a reliever, some think he can still be a great starter with a long career, and yet more thing he can be a good starter, but likely not for long given his advanced age and injury history. Hence why I see him as very much an “eye of the beholder” prospect.
Good observation. I am on the skeptical, bordering on negative, side. It seems like quite a leap of faith to expect a pitcher who has 36 innings on the hill over the past 2 2/3 years to suddenly pitch enough innings in the next several years to make him such a key part of this trade. He seems like the Tristan Casas of pitchers.
He’s only pitched a little both of 230 innings of professional ball. He’s certainly talented but 1. Sample size is microscopic and 2. Can he even pitch a starters workload. That second question is what really concerns me and until he does it I have serious doubts. To me Hope is the center piece. Tigers obviously want Ryan to help fill their rotation but I don’t know if he can do that or not.
he reminds me a lot of Garrett Crochet who had very similar complete lack of workload, ramped up very quickly, and got bit in the ass in the end.
“If he stays healthy.”
Hoo boy that’s it, isn’t it? I am now at the point where I don’t think River Ryan will be healthy for *any* length of time. And since the Dodgers are all in on injury risk pitchers with huge stuff the fact that they were willing to give him up is a huge, ruby-red flag.
I read Kiley’s piece on him earlier today and he had him more as an FV45+ / FV50 border guy. Which seems about right to me, balancing the seemingly occurrence that he doesn’t pitch 100 more innings in the majors with the upside if he does.
Last week Ryan was the most likely Dodgers pitcher to move because there was no room in the rotation, but now that he’s been moved it’s because the Dodgers think he’s broken forever. I’m really not even that high on the guy, but the comments here are a little ludicrous.
This is what sadtrombone wrote ten days ago about River Ryan in the comments of the Top 100 prospects update piece:
You somehow missing everyone else talking about Ryan’s health issues doesn’t mean that people weren’t already talking about Ryan’s health issues.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but River Ryan has scared the heck out of me for a while. I was counting down the starts, waiting for him to blow out back in 2024. It’s been two years since then and it’s just setback after setback.
Someone said that they thought that Logan Henderson was the best possible outcome for him, and I think that is a very optimistic take, it’s possible but I don’t think it’s likely at all. Another slightly more likely but very optimistic take is Cade Cavalli, where he dials the stuff way back to stay healthy. But I think the only “good” outcome that has a decent chance of happening is a Daniel Espino situation where they put him in the bullpen. And the most likely situation is that he doesn’t pitch another 100 innings in the majors. This is a totally different level of risk than a normal pitching prospect.
I don’t know that I could put a grade on him at all. But clearly the Tigers do not share my assessment.
multiple things can be true at the same time.
Ryan has plenty of red flags, but I don’t think the Dodgers willingness to trade him is one. They frequently trade good prospects who turn into good players.
I think the Dodgers traded him because the Tigers wanted a controllable MLB-ready starter. It was Ryan or Sheehan, and Sheehan is too valuable to the Dodgers this year.
sure tigers picked Ryan over Sheehan, doubt dodgers would hold up getting skubalmfor Sheehan, he’s 8th on list for starts in playoffs.
But all that said about Ryan’s health concerns, I actually think that this was a perfectly fine deal in the abstract for Skubal. This is a rental, and Hope is a good prospect. He really does look like a slugging 120 or higher wRC+ guy in a corner. Kiley, even with the concerns about his health, called it an 8.5 out of 10 for the Tigers. A small-to-moderate premium.
I think the Tigers will probably regret not grabbing a different guy other than Ryan, either from the Dodgers organization or from another one.
Luis Pena is a long way off but I am kind of surprised the Brewers even considered trading him, and some of the Rays’ pitchers like Hopkins don’t have the same injury risk. I would have even preferred Sproat to Ryan, although who knows if the Brewers were willing to trade him.
But even with that, I still think they got good value, and I don’t know if we will find out enough about the other offers to know for sure they were better. I think Tigers fans can feel comfortable with this return.
I mean, this is basically the deal everyone had projected. Sheehan, Hope, random flyer.
We nailed Hope. Sheehan was swapped out for Ryan. I suppose that’s fair enough for Detroit – we all have opinions about guys and maybe theirs is low on Sheehan. Or high on Ryan. Or they see them as equal and thus it’s Ryan as he has more control. More power to them.
I do think if we’re deferring to LA’s magnificence as an org – and let’s be clear, that was why Hope got hyped up before last season and IMO why Ryan has gotten as much rope as he has…I think it’s at least interesting that LA gave them up
I’m not as optimistic about Hope. His swing is long and has a severe uppercut. It also has noticeable effort in it to the point that he often grabs his helmet after the swing to keep it from falling off.
I like that he has the ability to drive the ball to left field because he’s going to need to do that against premium fastball velocity, but it’s such an extreme bat path that he already has below average contact rates that will get even worse at higher levels. He’s also been chasing balls out of the zone pretty often in AA. His pitch recognition and bat control look good, so at least that’s reassuring.
On the downside, he’s gotten so thick that the Dodgers didn’t have him play center at all this season and I honestly worry about him being below average in the corners.
He’s definitely corner only now. There’s some real risk here, and I think a 50 is a good grade for him because of that. I think if you made me pick between a 55 and a 45+ I would take the 55 (but I don’t have to).
But as you note he has the bat control and pitch recognition that he’s not locked into being this guy forever. And he’s shown both good raw and game power, performing despite the issues. It could all fall apart and I would definitely put De Paula and Frias ahead of him because they have even bigger upside at the plate but I think he has a case for being the third best corner-only OF prospect right now (assuming we’re counting guys who could go either way like Jenkins as not being corner-only OF).
He is absolutely corner only but my point is that he’s probably going to have negative defensive value. Between that, the below average contact rates, and the increased chase rate this season, I do not see him as a legitimate 50. You’re way higher on him than I am.
I agree and would have greatly preferred Sirota from the Tigers’ perspective, but I don’t think the Dodgers were willing to go that high.
I can understand wanting Ryan over Sproat. I get the huge injury risk, but I still think Ryan has a much higher chance of being above average than Sproat. I would vastly prefer Henderson over Ryan, but I would also balk that were I the Brewers. The Dodgers were able to trade guys that they will not miss at all, and the Brewers were not.
the right deal for both teams. Still doesn’t wash the sour taste out of my mouth about how the Dodgers constantly are able to pull off this crap. Someone needs to change the rules because this stuff is just not fair.
I am really hoping the Brewers light up Skubal in a win in the final game of the NLCS this year.
I don’t understand how the Dodgers can do this repeatedly as well, but no one is forcing other teams to trade their difference makers for the Dodgers’ leftovers. And this isn’t even close to the most lopsided deal they pulled off (from the perspective of when it happened, we obviously don’t know how this one will turn out yet).
We have had smart teams and we have had rich teams, but we rarely have teams that are both. This makes the Dodgers rather unique at this moment.
I’m not arguing for changing the system, but one reason the Dodgers can trade their leftovers for other teams’ difference makers is that, when a smart team has eight different players on eight-figure contracts, the players who get squeezed off the roster might still be pretty good.
Nine-figure contracts I mean. having eight players on eight-figure contracts, even if it’s their salary for the current year, is pretty normal.
Perhaps the rules should change to reduce the ability of the big market teams to replicate the ‘moneyball’-esque strategies the very well run smaller market teams have used.
One idea I thought of is, for each luxury tax threshold you go over, you lose a 40-man roster spot the following season. So, this year, the Dodgers would have a 36 (I think) man roster – it would definitely give Friedman some headaches in roster construction – I’m not sure how much of an effect it would be, but a fan of a team next year who manages to get a good prospect from the Dodgers for pennies on the dollar (because they are having a 36-man roster crunch, rather than the 40-man they will have) will probably be feeling pretty happy about it. Obviously, the union will have some issues with losing the roster spots, so it might be a no go anyway.
That’s American sports – let’s find ways to punish teams that do well. You finished first? Congratulations, your reward is you draft last. The Dodgers draft near the bottom every year and still find good players they can trade for guys like Skubal.
Correction: the Dodgers have no need for cost controlled players because they don’t care about costs so they can trade prospects for guys like Skubal and sign unlimited free agents instead of needing to promote prospects.
Change the rules? Like mandate that every team has to hire at 70 amateur and professional scouts, and spend at least $50M/year on player development. Not a bad idea, but probably not going to happen (and its not the Dodgers who would block that rule change).
Bummer to see Skubal go, but the Tigers are a better team than their record shows (tied with Giants at -9 their baseruns record, lowest in MLB), and I think they can easily turn around with a package like this and compete next year, so I am not that disappointed in it. Obviously part if the reason they are so good was Skubal but still.
The Tigers have the second-best run differential in the AL and sixth in MLB. Hope they don’t trade anyone else. Maybe even look to add a bullpen arm or two (the reason they are 10 games below their win expectancy). Heck, they are only 2.5 games out of the last wildcard.
“elongated drew anderson” my god, they’re stretching them out like taffy back there
Thanks for this excellent article. As a Tigers fan I hate giving up Skubal but he was a goner and the org needed to do this. I think the package is fine, not great, but I like Hope as the best part.
If Tampa and Milwaukee aren’t going for it this year, when they have these records, when will they? Never, apparently.
I know quite a few Brewers fans that think 2027 is actually there best chance for a title.Made will come up and fill the hole at 3rd base. The young pitching staff will have a year of experience under their belt. Preister will be back. Pratt and Lara will have a couple of hundred MLB at bats under their belts. The only regular they will have to likely replace will be Jake Bauers.
It’s always next year…
Playing for a 1-year window? I hope not. 2027 could bring its own set of injuries or performance regression. The iron is hot. The time to strike is now.
I think its more than a 1 year window, as their entire rotation is comprised of guys 25 and younger. 2027 just looks like a really good chance because in theory they have everyone key back except for maybe Bauers and potentially Made fills the hole at 3rd base and then your lineup is pretty stacked, your rotation is solid and they always seem to find good bullpen pieces.
After 2027 they lose Contreras so that opens up a hole unless they can fill it, but Contreras is a special player.
It’s better in terms of probability to take several lesser smaller shots than one or two slightly bigger shots.Unlike the Dodgers who can have their cake and eat it too.
Trying to mirror the Dodgers offer from the Brewers perspective, I came up with Sproat (healthy MLB-ready 50), Adamczemski (bat-first corner OF 45) and Josh Knoth (high-ceiling second SP 45). I think Arnold pulls the trigger on that, but I’m not sure it beats the Dodgers package.
Assuming Detroit wasn’t prioritizing CF, C or IF, it’s tough to sweeten up the offer without grossly overpaying. Like, the Crew can’t offer Sproat AND Henderson for a rental.
We’ll see if they trade legit prospects at all for anyone soon. I have doubts.
RPs Hoffman, Kittredge, Raley, etc. would help without requiring 45s. I think I’d rather add two such relievers than a bigger fish like Casey Mize.
If I am the Brewers I am going after Reid Detmers. He would cost a whole lot and maybe it would be too steep, but they certainly wouldn’t lose based on not having enough position players to trade.
Trevor Rogers would also be an interesting option but I don’t think they line up well with the Orioles.
Maybe the Angels would go for some of the very high K sluggers on the Brewers that I think are extreme longshots to be more than Russell Branyans.
I would have thought Detmers would cost a lot but Soriano moved for Nimmala and a couple lower level prospects. So I think it might be doable with Quero as the headliner. Quero, Jett Williams, and Andrew Fischer is a pretty good package relative to the one with Nimmala?
I actually think he might be a better fit for the Brewers than Skubal. Some of that is because he is under control for longer but I also think there is some developmental space left for Detmers out of the stretch.
I think that would be good package for Detmers, and I think the Brewers could definitely unlock another gear a la Harrison. I don’t think the Brewers would miss Williams and Fischer, and I’m not sure anymore that Quero is a lock to catch.
I had:
Braylon Payne (probably a quarter to half grade lower than Hope, similar big upside but hit tool risk)
Letson (probably a quarter to half grade higher than Smith, Knoth also works)
Sproat (either Sproat or Ryan could be anywhere between a 45 and a 55, this is where the big difference likely is)
I think that this would have been a comparable package but if you like Ryan or don’t like Sproat then you could easily prefer the Dodgers package. But I would have preferred this over the one the Tigers took because Ryan terrifies me. Although if the Dodgers had offered Sheehan instead I would have flipped back to the Dodgers.
Either way, I think it’s a pretty fair deal. I think you could also build a package around Brody Hopkins, who I am also not a fan of but I like better than either Ryan or Sproat. Michael Forret or Ty Johnson could easily be the second piece, with Brayden Taylor being a third one. Lots of near-ready help there.
Sproat never should have been ranked as a 50 and clearly is no longer viewed as one. He hasn’t been able to sustain his fastball velocity multiple times through the order, his command is as bad as was feared, and his breaking balls have been below average.
All right. Same deal with Henderson in place of Sproat. While I’m less confident Arnold would offer it, do you think the Tigers prefer that package to Ryan/Hope/Smith?
[Correction to my initial post: FG lists Knoth as a 45+, not 45.]
I’d rather have Henderson than Ryan — he’s proven he can pitch well in the majors already — but they’re both injury risks. How Detroit feels about the two deals probably comes down to what they think of Hope, who I think is a clear step above Payne.
From the Brewers side I’m not sure they’d want to give up Henderson for a rental, even Skubal. It’ll be interesting to see if they’re in on Detmers or Hunter Greene as guys with control, where cashing in prospects makes more sense given how they operate.
Thank you for writing an actual rational, informed analysis, in contrast to the avalanche of ignorant bullshit this deal has inspired.
Well written article. Appreciate the insight and level of detail.
The thing about saying “Jacob deGrom broke out late” is that Jacob deGrom was not a highly regarded Prospect for half a decade. He was called up the same week as Rafael Montero, who was more highly regarded than him AT THE TIME OF THEIR DEBUTS
So yes, if you take every 25 year old pitcher in the minor leagues there is a shot that one of them will be a good major league pitcher at 26 and maybe even a great one a couple years later.
Anyway, River Ryan is two years older than Jacob deGrom was his Rookie season
Actually, a good example of this is Cristopher Sanchez. You go look back at a scouting report for Curtis Mead on *this site* and it says the Rays “stole” him for a “depth starter” named Cris Sanchez
Then Cris Sanchez obviously developed into much more than a depth starter because, you know, someone has to develop into one of the best pitchers in baseball. It’s going to happen to someone. Maybe it happens to River Ryan, I dunno, but obviously every soft tossing lefty depth starter doesnt turn into Cris Sanchez and I think the public being skeptical of an injury prone 28 year old even with good stuff is entirely fair
At the risk of asking a dumb question, how would this work? I had assumed Ryan was accruing major league service time while rehabbing, since he was starting for the Dodgers when he blew out his arm. His FA projection on his player page seems to match that, with an estimated FA year of 2031 (his debut year + the lost year rehabbing last year + this year, and then four more years of control). The clock has continued ticking while he’s been out, just as it has with Jackson Jobe. How would that be affected by when the Tigers bring him up to the major league club? Isn’t he accruing time either way? How does his rookie eligibility play into this?