The End of the 2016 Cubs Is Coming

Patrick Gorski-USA TODAY Sports

These are the saddest of possible words,
Bryant to Báez to Rizzo.
Seeing projected WAR cut into thirds,
Bryant to Báez to Rizzo.
Quickly declining in other team’s hats,
by plate discipline or by powerless bats,
concussions and sore backs turn comebacks to splats,
Bryant to Báez to Rizzo.

The 2016 season was one of the greatest in the history of the Chicago Cubs, a franchise that dates back to 1870, before the National League even existed. After winning the World Series and ending a championship drought that dated back to 1908, there were a lot of reasons to think this team would continue to make deep playoff runs for another five or six years. Sure, they had a fairly old starting rotation, with only Kyle Hendricks expected to stick around for a while, but the lineup looked like it was equipped for a long stretch of dominance. Addison Russell was 22, Javier Báez and Kyle Schwarber were each 23, Kris Bryant, Jorge Soler, and Willson Contreras were all 24, and Anthony Rizzo was still just 26. The team’s big free agent signing from the previous winter, Jason Heyward, didn’t have a good first season in Chicago, but at 26, a bounce-back campaign wasn’t out of the question. Still, this version of the Chicago Cubs would turn out to only have four postseason wins and a single playoff series win (the 2017 NLDS) left in them. What’s more, the three brightest stars in that constellation, Bryant, Báez, and Rizzo, were all traded at the 2021 deadline ahead of reaching free agency. Now, years later, each faces a very uncertain future.

The 2016 team started losing pieces almost immediately. As expected, the pitching staff faded away, with Hendricks quickly the last man standing. To replace the closer they rented for the 2016 run, Aroldis Chapman, the Cubs sent Soler to the Royals in return for a single season of Wade Davis. Russell was injured for much of 2017, struggled in 2018, and then was suspended due to serious charges of domestic violence; he last played in the majors in 2019. Heyward never really got back to being the player he was before signing with Chicago. The rest all departed via trades or in free agency, with Contreras the last one to leave Wrigley Field following the 2022 season. The team was in the mix for a playoff spot last year and still could get back into the fray this year, but if they do, it will be with very little of the DNA of the 2016 team remaining.

Remember when I mentioned that Báez, Bryant and Rizzo face uncertain futures? All three left 2023 with a worse outlook than they entered the year with, and 2024 has only continued that unpleasant trajectory. In 146 combined games this season, they’ve hit .203/.265/.299 with 11 home runs in 588 PA, “good” for -1.9 WAR. Sadly, there’s little reason to be optimistic about any of them turning the corner.

Báez’s 2024 has turned into a disaster fairly quickly. Signed to a six-year, $140 million contract by the Detroit Tigers in the winter of 2021, he disappointed in his first season with the team, posting a .238/.278/.393 slash line. Unfortunately, that now looks like it might be the highlight of his stay in Detroit: Báez dropped to a .222/.267/.325 line last season and is setting a new standard of underperformance this year, hitting .183/.209/.247, with a back injury and a high salary likely all that’s keeping an old English “D” on his cap.

ZiPS has always had concerns about Báez’s plate discipline and the extra risk associated with it, but around the time the Cubs won the World Series, the computer still expected him to make at least some contribution in the early-to-mid-2020s:

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ZiPS Projection – Javier Báez (Pre-2017)
Year BA OBP SLG AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB OPS+ DR WAR
2017 .254 .303 .428 477 61 121 22 2 19 70 26 145 16 96 4 2.5
2018 .254 .305 .441 460 60 117 22 2 20 70 26 143 15 100 4 2.7
2019 .252 .304 .447 461 61 116 23 2 21 72 27 149 15 101 4 2.8
2020 .250 .304 .452 460 61 115 23 2 22 73 28 149 15 102 4 2.9
2021 .247 .303 .445 449 60 111 22 2 21 71 28 146 13 100 3 2.6
2022 .249 .303 .446 437 58 109 22 2 20 68 27 136 12 101 3 2.5
2023 .250 .302 .441 424 55 106 20 2 19 66 25 125 11 99 2 2.2
2024 .251 .304 .436 406 52 102 19 1 18 61 24 114 11 98 1 2.0
2025 .248 .299 .416 387 48 96 18 1 15 56 22 103 10 92 0 1.5
2026 .248 .299 .402 343 41 85 15 1 12 47 19 83 7 89 -1 1.0
2027 .245 .294 .391 302 34 74 12 1 10 40 16 69 7 85 -2 0.6
2028 .242 .287 .375 240 26 58 9 1 7 29 11 51 5 78 -2 0.2
2029 .239 .282 .365 159 17 38 6 1 4 18 7 32 2 75 -2 -0.1

At this point, however, the full-fat ZiPS projections don’t see a comeback in the cards for Báez in 2025 or, well, ever:

ZiPS Projection – Javier Báez
Year BA OBP SLG AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB OPS+ DR WAR
2025 .228 .270 .346 448 51 102 19 2 10 53 20 118 10 72 -1 0.7
2026 .226 .267 .342 412 45 93 17 2 9 47 18 110 9 70 -1 0.5
2027 .226 .270 .344 372 41 84 16 2 8 41 17 102 7 71 -2 0.4
2028 .222 .262 .333 162 16 36 7 1 3 17 7 46 3 66 -1 0.0

Things haven’t gone much better for Báez’s former teammates. Bryant’s 2024 season barely got started before he landed on the IL with a back injury courtesy of a collision with the outfield wall on April 13. Less than two weeks after returning in late May, a ribcage injury from another intimate encounter with a wall put him right back on the IL, and he was eventually also diagnosed with an oblique injury; there’s no timetable for his return.

Unfortunately, this has been a recurring theme for Bryant in Denver. Signed to a seven-year, $182 million deal, Bryant initially hit well for the Rockies, but he missed significant time in 2021, mostly due to two IL stints resulting from back problems. Healthier in 2022 — at least until problems with his right foot cut his season short — Bryant’s offense just about disappeared, and his anemic performance at the plate stretched into the start of this season. As with Báez, ZiPS has very limited expectations about Bryant’s future:

ZiPS Projection – Kris Bryant
Year BA OBP SLG AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB OPS+ DR WAR
2025 .243 .326 .389 296 38 72 16 0 9 35 31 79 2 86 -5 0.0
2026 .236 .321 .373 284 35 67 15 0 8 32 30 79 1 81 -5 -0.3
2027 .235 .319 .363 281 33 66 15 0 7 30 29 80 1 78 -5 -0.4
2028 .234 .319 .359 128 15 30 7 0 3 13 13 38 1 78 -2 -0.2

It’s a projection that stands in sharp contrast to the computer’s expectations in 2016. ZiPS thought that if any of the Cubs were going to put together a Hall of Fame run, it would most likely be Bryant. A first-round pick in 2013, Bryant blasted through the minors, and his 2015 projection was the best ZiPS had ever given to a rookie (after Mike Trout). Bryant won an MVP award in 2016 to go along with his ring, and ZiPS expected him to be a superstar for a long time to come:

ZiPS Projection – Kris Bryant (Pre-2017)
Year BA OBP SLG AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB OPS+ DR WAR
2017 .274 .372 .512 576 104 158 30 4 33 109 78 182 12 138 4 6.7
2018 .271 .371 .516 564 102 153 31 4 33 108 78 182 11 138 4 6.5
2019 .270 .371 .521 559 101 151 31 5 33 107 79 181 11 139 4 6.6
2020 .267 .368 .517 547 99 146 30 4 33 105 77 180 12 138 3 6.3
2021 .268 .371 .511 530 96 142 29 5 30 100 76 167 12 137 2 6.0
2022 .272 .373 .517 515 93 140 28 4 30 98 73 156 12 139 1 5.8
2023 .270 .368 .501 497 87 134 26 4 27 91 68 148 12 134 1 5.2
2024 .268 .366 .489 474 80 127 25 4 24 83 64 135 12 130 0 4.6
2025 .266 .361 .475 451 74 120 23 4 21 75 58 120 10 125 -1 3.9
2026 .263 .354 .451 426 67 112 20 3 18 68 52 106 9 117 -2 3.1
2027 .261 .346 .442 398 59 104 18 3 16 61 44 90 8 113 -3 2.5
2028 .258 .337 .416 365 51 94 15 2 13 51 37 78 6 104 -4 1.6
2029 .251 .326 .386 334 43 84 13 1 10 42 30 66 4 93 -6 0.8
2030 .247 .316 .359 259 31 64 9 1 6 30 21 48 3 83 -6 0.1
2031 .241 .302 .345 145 17 35 4 1 3 15 10 25 1 76 -4 -0.3

That projection would have been enough to get Bryant a career WAR in the high 60s, more than 2,000 hits, and nearly 400 homers. He nearly matched his 2016 season in 2017, and everything appeared to be going as planned. Hitting .319/.467/.536 in 2018, Bryant was hit in the face by an errant Germán Márquez pitch and missed a week. Whether or not that injury shares any of the blame, Bryant never returned to his 2016-17 form again. While he was certainly a good player for much of the rest of his time in Chicago, his very respectable 17.4 WAR from 2017 through 2021 was considerably less than his 28.1-WAR projection (32.4 before taking the shortened 2020 into account).

ZiPS never really liked his deal with the Rockies, seeing Bryant’s best days as being well behind him and projecting him for only a few more seasons as a decent starter in left field:

ZiPS Projection – Kris Bryant (Pre-2022)
Year BA OBP SLG AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SB OPS+ DR WAR
2022 .285 .370 .515 515 88 147 33 2 27 80 58 8 121 -1 2.6
2023 .281 .367 .510 484 81 136 32 2 25 75 55 7 119 -1 2.3
2024 .279 .363 .500 466 76 130 30 2 23 70 52 6 116 -2 1.9
2025 .271 .355 .471 442 69 120 27 2 19 62 47 5 107 -3 1.2
2026 .267 .346 .452 409 61 109 24 2 16 53 41 4 100 -3 0.7
2027 .259 .335 .417 343 48 89 19 1 11 41 32 4 89 -3 0.0
2028 .255 .327 .397 239 31 61 11 1 7 26 20 2 82 -3 -0.3

As uninspiring a projection as that is, Bryant and the Rockies would almost certainly prefer my computer’s vision of the future to the one that has come to pass, at least so far. Now, the main question isn’t how he’ll do on the team, but rather the circumstances under which he’ll leave.

As for Rizzo, he has also fallen short of his projections, but he’s had a less eventful decline, at least until 2023:

ZiPS Projection – Anthony Rizzo (Pre-2017)
Year BA OBP SLG AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB OPS+ DR WAR
2017 .280 .382 .529 567 94 159 36 3 33 108 78 114 8 145 5 5.6
2018 .277 .382 .530 549 91 152 37 3 32 104 78 113 7 145 5 5.4
2019 .274 .379 .514 537 88 147 36 3 29 99 76 108 8 140 5 5.0
2020 .274 .377 .513 519 83 142 34 3 28 95 72 102 8 139 4 4.7
2021 .266 .368 .490 500 77 133 31 3 25 87 67 96 8 131 4 3.9
2022 .263 .363 .474 479 71 126 29 3 22 79 62 89 8 126 4 3.4
2023 .258 .356 .455 453 64 117 26 3 19 70 56 77 7 119 4 2.7
2024 .258 .352 .443 427 58 110 24 2 17 65 50 68 6 115 3 2.3
2025 .252 .341 .428 397 51 100 21 2 15 57 43 58 5 108 3 1.7
2026 .249 .329 .406 362 44 90 17 2 12 49 34 49 4 99 2 1.0
2027 .242 .315 .377 281 31 68 12 1 8 35 23 35 2 88 1 0.2
2028 .234 .303 .367 188 20 44 8 1 5 22 14 22 1 81 1 -0.1

After 2021, Rizzo signed a two-year, $32 million contract with the Yankees; after exercising his opt-out clause following the 2022 season, he signed another low-key pact, this one a two-year, $40 million deal. His 2022 and 2023 numbers don’t look that dissimilar to what ZiPS expected for this stage of his career back in 2016 — that is, until Fernando Tatis Jr.’s hip connected with Rizzo’s noggin during a pickoff attempt in early 2023. Rizzo initially passed a battery of tests, returning to the lineup after just a few missed games. But his bat disappeared for two months and after he described fogginess, the team ran tests that found cognitive impairment; he was placed on the IL with post-concussion syndrome and missed the rest of the season.

While he was able to get back into the lineup this season, his bat didn’t return, and he only hit .223/.289/.341 until another collision, this time with Brennan Bernardino, resulted in a fractured arm that looks to keep him out for two months. The Yankees called up Ben Rice to take Rizzo’s spot on the roster; he’ll share first base reps with DJ LeMahieu for the time being. At this point, ZiPS actually sees Rice as the equal of Rizzo, projecting a 106 wRC+ for both players for the rest of the season, which suggests that the Yankees won’t lose anything in the win column as a result.

Without a long-term contract motivating his team to give him comeback attempts, the end looks like it’s coming for Rizzo more quickly than for Báez or Bryant:

ZiPS Projection – Anthony Rizzo
Year BA OBP SLG AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB OPS+ DR WAR
2025 .227 .311 .371 431 52 98 17 0 15 53 37 92 2 89 0 0.5
2026 .222 .304 .354 379 44 84 14 0 12 44 32 84 2 83 0 0.1
2027 .214 .297 .331 332 36 71 12 0 9 36 28 77 1 75 -1 -0.3
2028 .206 .288 .312 170 17 35 6 0 4 17 14 41 1 67 -1 -0.4
2029 .211 .294 .329 76 8 16 3 0 2 7 6 19 0 74 0 -0.1

People tend to get very annoyed with ZiPS when it projects decline for players while they’re at the peak of their stardom. But it does that because cases like Bryant, Báez, and Rizzo aren’t actually outliers when you look at baseball history. Superstardom can be surprisingly fleeing, and you can field an impressive lineup of Hall of Famers who mainly earned their entry to Cooperstown for what they did in their 20s. Ken Griffey Jr. wasn’t invincible, nor were Albert Pujols or Miguel Cabrera.

Outside of Schwarber, things aren’t going well for the few other remaining 2016 Cubs, either. Hendricks had a solid outing on Wednesday, but that only served to get his ERA below 8.00. Contreras got off to a dynamite start, but he had to have surgery on his arm after a brutal fracture; it remains to be seen if he’ll return to form. And while Heyward has had a bit of a second wind in Los Angeles, he’s a role player these days. The tsunami that was the 2016 Cubs has been reduced to a gentle ripple that just barely laps the walls of sand castles.

So, what lesson should teams draw from the 2016 Cubs? It’s not that you shouldn’t value your young stars, but rather that no matter how bright your future looks, there’s zero guarantee it’ll end up being as dazzling as you expect. Today’s Orioles strike me as one of the teams in particular that should take note of this. Yes, the O’s have a very young, very talented core, but if they’re conservative about making deals next month at the trade deadline or supplementing their roster later this winter, they may come to regret it. The 2023-24 rosters could very well be the best Orioles teams of this generation, and there might never be a better opportunity for this squad to get to the World Series. Seizing the day isn’t just a lesson for baseball, but a lesson for all of us.





Dan Szymborski is a senior writer for FanGraphs and the developer of the ZiPS projection system. He was a writer for ESPN.com from 2010-2018, a regular guest on a number of radio shows and podcasts, and a voting BBWAA member. He also maintains a terrible Twitter account at @DSzymborski.

106 Comments
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Newest Most Voted
soddingjunkmailMember since 2016
2 years ago

What a great read. Thanks Dan.

Richie
2 years ago

Why is Kris Bryant colliding with outfield walls?? I thought the whole point of switching him to 1st Base was to (at least try to) keep him healthy? Well, less unhealthy.

What incompetence. Even when the Rockies finally embrace the obvious, they still screw up the execution.

mariodegenzgz
2 years ago
Reply to  Richie

It’s because they re-signed Blackmon for no reason other than sentimentality (good for him, btw), so they can’t simply DH Bryant or even keep him at first base without also blocking multiple younger players they have a smidge of interest in giving ABs to.

Lanidrac
2 years ago

Baez has always had a terrible hitting approach. The Tigers made a huge mistake with his signing, as it was easy to predict that Baez’s offense would collapse once he started losing bat speed. That’s something that computer projections aren’t going to pick up but any human scout could.

Last edited 2 years ago by Lanidrac
bada87bingMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Computer projections absolutely picked up on Baez’s offensive collapse and his terrible hitting approach.

Lanidrac
2 years ago
Reply to  bada87bing

ZiPS certainly didn’t pick it before the 2017 season.

bada87bingMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

And Baez was worth 14.6 WAR the following three seasons. What is your point?

Lanidrac
2 years ago
Reply to  bada87bing

He was still in his prime during those seasons. The point is that before 2017 ZiPS failed to recognize that Baez would collapse in his early 30’s even though it was easily predictable to human minds even back then.

However, computer projections can only rely on past statistics, injury reports, and player comparisons to extrapolate the future without being able to recognize underlying issues like Baez’s unsustainable hitting approach.

Last edited 2 years ago by Lanidrac
The Ghost of Johnny Dickshot
2 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

 “even though it was easily predictable to human minds even back then.”

LOL, you should be a GM, you’re so smart.

JupiterBrandoMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  bada87bing

Sure, but I do think there’s merit to the idea that the regression model does not calibrate “carrying tools” properly; if Baez was going to fall off a cliff when his bat speed dropped–as a lot of people expected–then a more linear regression shouldn’t apply. He was never going to age gracefully.

MichaelMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  JupiterBrando

i’m sure zips sees the sub- 5% career walk rate and adjusts the player comps to better suit its modeling. these are sophisticated tools, dan talks about how hard it is to improve zips anymore in his chats

Lanidrac
2 years ago
Reply to  Michael

That’s likely because it has hit its limits on what it can do and will never be able to recognize certain issues no matter how sophisticated it gets.

Last edited 2 years ago by Lanidrac
Spahn_and_Sain
2 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

You say that like it’s a bad thing, but ZiPS is designed to be a general prediction model. For that purpose, the risk of over fitting is a bigger threat than missing on a handful of batters whose swing is going to cause problems (and who also won’t be able to adjust).
That computer models are not able to recognize certain scouting issues is, of course, an absurd thing to say. Anything you can learn to recognize, a computer can learn to recognize better. The issue is whether it’s worth the effort to do so.
I’m sure the new bat tracking data—now that it is simple, automatic, cheap, and consistently formatted—will yield some models that are more than capable of predicting the issues you’ve pointed out once they’ve amassed a reasonable cache of data.

MichaelMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  Spahn_and_Sain

I actually think it would be best if ZiPS was changed to a neural net trained on word embeddings of comments and tweets about a player. That way nobody can complain anymore

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
2 years ago

What would the over/under for future hall of famers on that Cubs team have been after the last out of the World Series? And who still has a chance? Chapman could be a fringe case but I think the suspensions make him very doubtful. Lester definitely has some chance when and if the recalibration for starting pitching comes, especially since he also has his Red Sox success. I don’t think anyone else has a snowball’s chance in hell. Weird. Most World Series winning teams for one reason or another have at least one future hall of famer,* and one of the most famous winners and one that was one hell of a team could very well be shut out.

Looking at 1980-2023, the only other two teams with possibly zero future hall of famers are the 2002 Angels (best case: K-Rod) and the 2015 Royals (best case: Sal Perez). The 2005 White Sox had an aged Frank Thomas and the 1988 Dodgers had a very aged Don Sutton. You could argue the 2021 Braves don’t have a lock, but Freddie Freeman gets closer and closer to lock status every day it seems. Every other team either has one in, or has a lead pipe lock to make it (Posey, Pujols, Betts, Kershaw, Scherzer, or Verlander).

Lanidrac
2 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

I think Contreras has a chance, probably not a good chance since his defense isn’t all that great at the one position where it really matters, but I could see him hitting his way into Cooperstown if he can hold off his offensive decline long enough.

John DiFool2
2 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Heck, the Royals may be the first WS winner to have no HoF candidates reach the 5% threshold, and may not in fact get a single solitary vote for anyone.

linn
2 years ago
Reply to  John DiFool2

how does Salvador Perez not get in? He has lots of the hardware that typical catchers have to become a HOF. 8x All Star, 4x Silver slugger, and 5x Gold Glove…plus he could play for another 3-4 years. Granted, missing the 2019 season was a big blow to his counting numbers.

tjkMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  linn

He is 31st in WAR for catchers at Baseball Reference (behind Buster Posey, Yadier Molina, and Russell Martin. Not to mention guys like Lance Parrish, Jorge Posada, Thurman Munson, Gene Tenace. On Fangraphs he’s…114th.

He’ll get a face of the franchise bump, I think he’ll get 5% on the ballot, but it would be surprising for him to jump those guys in front of him.

mariodegenzgz
2 years ago
Reply to  tjk

I always roll my eyes at catcher WAR, can’t lie. So much of the position’s value is not easily captured by stats. I think Salvy’s real problem will be that he currently has a sub .300 career OBP. If he’d made his 2024 adjustments a decade prior… who knows.

youppi4pm
2 years ago
Reply to  mariodegenzgz

What evidence do we have that Perez was good at the things “not easily captured by stats’. Obviously, I’ll allow anecdotal evidence here.

Although, I always roll my eyes at arguments based on “trust me, bro”.

linn
2 years ago
Reply to  tjk

all of those guys have better counting stats for sure. Does SS or GG matter then..at all? I still feel like they do for some reason. I also didn’t realize how good Jorge Posada was. He should probably get in. Thurman Munson was too short of a career. Gene Tenace and Russell Martin do not have the hardware to be a HOF IMO.

AnonMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  linn

Tenace is such an interesting player. He was so far ahead of his time with the power and patience approach. It’s not like he was a nobody in his time by any means but he absolutely would be a star today. Imagine somebody today putting together 8 consecutive 3.9+ WAR seasons as a hybrid C/1B without more than 1 AS appearance and a few piddly down-ballot MVP votes.

Absolutely nothing tells you more about what numbers people thought about in the 70’s than Steve Garvey being 100x better known and notching 10 AS Game appearances and an MVP with 4 other top 6 finishes and MVP votes in 10 different seasons while Tenace had 1 AS appearance and 2 18th place MVP finishes.

linn
2 years ago
Reply to  tjk

Perez has the 6th most GG in MLB history for a catcher at 5. if he gets another one this year, he would be in 5th place. No one is going to catch Rodriguez, Bench or Molnia. he is one of 13 catchers to win at least 3 silver sluggers as well. I guess I think that counts for something.

AnonMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  linn

Perez might have had a shot at the HOF if he made his mid-career batting change earlier. He pretty clearly made an effort in about 2016 or so to start elevating and hit the ball in the air more even if it meant more Ks.

2011 – 2015 12.9% K-rate, 1.20 GB/FB and .152 ISO
2016 – 2024 21.9% K-rate, 0.80 GB/FB and .215 ISO

We don’t have Statcast data before 2015 but in 2015 his LA was 12.9*. His lowest since then is 14.2* and his 2nd lowest is 15.6*.

Give him another 30 HR at the front end of his career and he might end up pushing 350 HR by the time he’s done. As it is, he looks like he’s going to make 300 HR and the only C with 300+ HR that’s not in the HOF is Lance Parrish who is definitely in the “probably should be in because there should be more C in” tier.

BTW, I was going to post that Salvy ran up his AS totals as the token Royal, but he’s really only done that twice – 2018 and 2023 – and 5 times he’s been in with more than 1 other teammate so definitely not padding his AS count with lone representative appearances.

(BTW, that would be an interesting trivia question: which player had the most lone representative AS Game appearances? Not sure how to research that)

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  Anon

It’s interesting to me that Perez began uppercutting more at an age when bat speed supposedly declines. Baez and Joey Gallo fell off a cliff

Idli Amin, The Last King of SambarMember since 2024
2 years ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

Indeed, though they’re all pretty distinct in terms of contact ability, particularly in-zone contact, which seems relevant. All three have plus raw power, but Perez has had above-average to near-elite in-zone contact rates, while Báez has below-average in-zone contact with terrible plate discipline, and Gallo has terrible in-zone contact with great plate discipline. So Perez’s bat-to-ball skills help mitigate incremental declines in bat speed, and thus age more gracefully.

BurleighGrimesMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  linn

I suspect that Sal will not get in from the writer vote but may eventually get in on a nostalgic veterans committee type thing. He’s not a Hofer by the numbers at all, and I doubt the writers give him much traction, but just the right group of old timers may put him on regardless. It’s the wrong choice but one I won’t hate if it happens. Perez is a fun and iconic player of his era.

RoyalsFan#14321Member since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  John DiFool2

I think everyone made the Sal Perez argument well enough. He should get some HOF consideration for a few years – at least to make the 5%. I doubt he gets another shot at a World Series MVP but a second one of those…

MikeSMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  John DiFool2

That Royals team was just so weird. 2014 too, to a lesser extent. Winning with average to poor starting pitching and no power has pretty much never happened in baseball. Instead, they just made the game 6 innings long and played great outfield defense in a pitcher’s park and heir hitters didn’t strike out. It was an especially odd formula for success in this century.

Lanidrac
2 years ago
Reply to  MikeS

Yeah, even the Whiteyball winners had good starting pitching,

olethrosMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

There was only one Whiteyball WS winning team in 1982. And all of them had at least on 20 HR or power threat in the middle of the lineup (Kendrick, Clark). 20 HR doesn’t sound like much these days, but home runs were far more scarce in the 80s, with league leaders typically hovering between 30 & 40 per season.

PC1970Member since 2024
2 years ago
Reply to  MikeS

As a fan of a Tigers team that had a bunch of stars, insane starting pitching & 3 HOF’ers (JV, Miggy, Scherzer) & made the playoffs 5x in 9 years, but, never won it all, that KC WS 2 year run out of the blue from a division rival with the 2015 WS win always annoyed me..mostly due to jealousy that they pulled off what we couldn’t!!

carterMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  John DiFool2

While I don’t think Perez makes it, I have a feeling people are gonna be like wtf when they see the % he gets. I’m guessing he is more a 30% than 5

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
2 years ago
Reply to  John DiFool2

Zero votes prediction is silly. There are three guys that will certainly or at least likely get votes in Perez, Cueto, and Zobrist, and I think Cain and Gordon could easily get a small handful of votes and even Hosmer might get one from someone who really respects the barrels.

Has an 8-time all star ever been shut out of hall of fame voting?

airforce21oneMember since 2026
2 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Lorenzo Cain?! Who is going to vote for Lorenzo Cain (30 career WAR, 103 wRC+) to be in the Hall of Fame? Jerry Reinsdorf? I need names.

youppi4pm
2 years ago
Reply to  airforce21one

A KC beat writer, knowing it won’t make a difference?

Brandon Phillips got a vote this year.
RA Dickey and Mike Napoli got votes last year.

airforce21oneMember since 2026
2 years ago
Reply to  youppi4pm

This is why no one takes the Hall seriously anymore.

AnonMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Funny that 2 of the 3 teams that might go missing a HOFer rostered Ben Zobrist.

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
2 years ago
Reply to  Anon

I noticed that too! If not a hall of very good player, he was at least a hall of underrated player.

formerly matt wMember since 2025
2 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

As far as I’m concerned, not breaking out or getting any playing time until age 27 and then getting 40+ WAR is an automatic admission to the HoVG.

linn
2 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Chapman may a have a case if he ever becomes a closer again. I still get upset with the Reds for not letting him become an awesome SP….such a sort sighted decison

synco
2 years ago
Reply to  linn

Never let your ace prospect start off as a closer if you have any intention of him starting later on.

Lanidrac
2 years ago
Reply to  synco

Tell that to Tony La Russa and Adam Wainwright, although he’s probably a rare exception.

Last edited 2 years ago by Lanidrac
Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Hoyt Wilhelm did just fine as a starter mid-career. They weren’t “closers” but Kenny Rogers and David Wells became starters. This year we have Garret Crochet and Jordan Hicks.

synco
2 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Wainwright has only 3 career regular season saves, but yeah he did have that great run through the 2006 playoffs. I’m thinking of dudes like Chapman, who was ticketed to be a starter, was worked into the league as a closer, and then was so electric in the role that he never left it. Or Papelbon who was also supposed to be a starter, was worked into the league as a closer, then threw a hissy fit when they tried to move him off the role.

Chris Sale was started off as a reliever but not a closer, and there was no debate when he moved into a starter role. Johan Santana and Julio Urias both had hybrid roles (though granted in Urias’s case the Dodgers had Kenley Jansen). Along with a bunch of other dudes of lower quality who got their feet wet as relievers and then were moved into starting roles.

Closers get so much hoopla that it becomes difficult to move them off the role when they have success, even if they’d be more valuable in other scenarios. Even if it’s just to a fireman role or some such, let alone becoming a starter. Whereas no one bats an eye when middle relievers move around.

Derek Lowe is a great example of a dude who went backward and welcomed the change.

carterMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  synco

Crochet looks to be working, but it’s very rare

Delgado4HOF
2 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

I’d say a hurt Frank Thomas. He hit 73 homers and hit around .270 from ages 38-40 after that ’05 season. He still had it in the tank.

Still these are great points are really cool to wonder about! I’d prob say Salvy is the best chance at HOF of those named.

Last edited 2 years ago by Delgado4HOF
TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
2 years ago
Reply to  Delgado4HOF

Yeah, I differentiated him from Sutton. He was still a solid player, had a pretty good season in 2006, but 2005 Frank Thomas was not nearly the player early to mid 90s Frank Thomas was. He just had a long way to go down, so even a guy with a wRC+ of 128 was his 13th best season, and he also had a season at 127 and two at 126, so that is not a cherry picked stat.

Delgado4HOF
2 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Oh yeah he definitely was on the back end I agree. It’s actually wild that a wRC+ of 128 falls as his 13th best year. Just goes to show how overlooked Thomas goes sometimes.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

2002 Angels had Kevin Appier who I view as a HOF level pitcher.

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
2 years ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

As long as you’re putting in a few dozen other pitchers ahead of them, then who am I to say how big your ideal hall of fame is?

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Oops, I’d also take Orel Hershiser from the 1988 Dodgers.

carterMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Freeman would have to have an epic collapse to not make it. And I know we say this a lot, but he just seems like he is gonna be good another 5 years

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  carter

He’s at 49.3 JAWS and he’s Freddie frikkin Freeman – he might not be a LOCK lock…but he’s pretty damn close

airforce21oneMember since 2026
2 years ago

If Harold Baines is in the HoF, Freeman is in the “frikkin” pantheon.

Adam SMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Probably 2.5 or 3, depends if you count Maddon.

Chapman and Bryant had strong cases. Baez had a shot. A rebound from Heyward, which didn’t happen, would have made him a candidate. Addison Russell was young and a star. Heck, Zobrist had an outside shot. There was even a small chance Rizzo would age gracefully and wind up with great totals.

OkraMember since 2016
2 years ago

Damn, after mastering projections, ZIPS is spitting out poetry. What a time to be alive!

Jason BMember since 2017
2 years ago

That initial poem? *Chef’s kiss*

Also, this is another good reminder that aging curves are rarely as smooth as ZiPS projects them to be (although they still give us the best approximation compared to anything else) – aging players rarely go 2.5 / 2.1 / 1.7 / 1.2 / 0.6, they more often go something akin to 2.3 / 0.8 / -0.2 / done

Lanidrac
2 years ago
Reply to  Jason B

Aging curves don’t always form as a simple single derivative curve either, as it can often go something like 2.5 / 1.2 / 2.1 / 0.6 / 1.7 / -0.2 instead.

notsuoh
2 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

You get random bounce back seasons all the time. Griffey Jr. went 1.8, 0.2, 1.4, -0.2, 2.9, -0.6, -0.6, -0.5, 0.1, -0.9. After an MVP in 78 and WS in 79 Dave Parker was 1.2, 0, 0.5, 0.2, 0.9. 5.4. 0.7, -0.6, 0.4, 1.0. 1.2, -1.2. Carlos lee went 3.7, 0.7, -1.7, 2.9, 0.3.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  notsuoh

The Big Donkey went 3.0, -2.9, 2.1, 0.4, 0.4!

Jason BMember since 2017
2 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Definitely! The smooth curve is still probably the best case to model it out and think about aging (especially aggregated across many different players), but the individual aging curves really can take so many different shapes.

The steroid era gave us some really crazy ones like 11.9(!) / 0.4 / 3.2 / 3.2 / retired or forced out (Bonds).

I also like the random career year out of nowhere – Richie Sexson gave us a 0.8 / 4.0 / 2.4 / -1.5 / -1.1. When the swing and miss guys who can hit it a mile stop connecting there is just no value to be had whatsoever.

MichaelMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  Jason B

It would be cool to see a player’s predicted WAR totals curves along with the 10/90 error bars for each year

jrothMember since 2026
2 years ago

Around 2018-9, after it was apparent that the Cubs hadn’t turned out a juggernaut, a regular on a Pirates blog had the gall to pretend that nobody ever expected them to become a dynasty.

It really is astonishing to see how optimistic not just commentators wowed by the historic accomplishment of 2016, but objective projection systems were for that core. Look at all those 5+ WAR seasons that never came to pass!

sadtromboneMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  jroth

That Cubs team was outrageously great even among great teams and there were lots of good reasons to expect them to go back to the World Series a couple more times, maybe even winning another one. They had a BaseRuns record of something like 116 wins or something. People who dismiss how good that team was are engaging in some serious hindsight bias.

jasonl
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

It was also outrageously healthy

Lanidrac
2 years ago
Reply to  jroth

There were people who never expected them to become a dynasty, just not because of their offense failing to live up to expectations.

The way they failed to develop any pitching prospects into good Major Leaguers aside from Hendricks and maybe an occasional bullpen guy and were forced to continually fill out their pitching staff with free agents, trades, and resigning their aging veterans was seen as untenable for a lengthy dynasty, and this ultimately also proved to be true.

Veeck as in BeckMember since 2024
2 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

The Cubs leaned into TINSTAAPP hard. And the logic was solid. The bats just all inexplicably petered out. I half-heartedly attribute it to a World Series work-ethic / “want” hangover but who knows.

Last edited 2 years ago by Veeck as in Beck
FrancoeursteinMember since 2020
2 years ago

They also made a bunch of trades of top-notch prospects for guys with 1-2 years of control. I’m at work, but off the top of my head Cease, Eloy, Gleyber, etc would’ve provided some serious depth.

AnonMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  Francoeurstein

Also:

Soler for Wade Davis in Dec 2016

Candelario and Isaac Paredes for Alex Avila and Justin Wilson at the deadline in 2017

Tommy LaStella for pretty much nothing in Nov 2018. He went on to be an AS the next year, though he fizzled after that

Would be interesting to see what each team looks like if they just kept their own players

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  Anon

Well Cubs would have still had Josh Donaldson but not Jake Arrieta nor Jon Lester

Last edited 2 years ago by Ivan_Grushenko
MoateMember since 2022
2 years ago
Reply to  Anon

And they just dumped Scwarbs (felt a bit ham handed at the time, especially considering how strong his legend was even at that time)

Veeck as in BeckMember since 2024
2 years ago
Reply to  Francoeurstein

One takeaway of this article is you can’t assume a core will last, so don’t get too precious with your prospects. Not sure which trades, knowing what we knew at the time, I would take back.

Make WAR Not LoveMember since 2022
2 years ago

They did and they didn’t. They aimed to have star players in the lineup and back end pitchers developed in volume (yeah I know…), because they thought that high velocity strikeout pitchers would get injured too much and that they didn’t want to harm all their guys. Then the ball changed and the sinkerballers who had so much success in the early to mid 2010’s couldn’t cut it. Their pitchers fell way behind the driveline pitchers.

Their hitters were built primarily on punishing sinkers and couldn’t adapt as well to the high fastball. Jason Hayward couldn’t adapt to the flyball revolution. All their good prospects were traded to cover their lack of pitching. The payroll was skyrocketing and the talent was declining. Ultimately, they couldn’t match their expectations, but still had a great run overall and the World Series championship was everything.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
2 years ago

I think we all could have predicted how bad the Baez and Bryant deals were going to go when they signed but not this badly (at least not this quickly). But after 2023, I felt fairly comfortable saying both of these guys were cooked. Bryant’s body has completely betrayed him, and whatever high wire act Baez could pull off as recently as 28 was gone in his age 30 season.

With Rizzo, I think that things weren’t so clear last year. The effects of concussions are unpredictable, so there was a world where he came back and picked up where he left off. But that clearly didn’t happen, either due to general erosion of skills or because he may be semi-concussed still from last year. I still think he’s the most likely one to return to being a good player, even though his projection is worse than Baez and similar to Bryant.

Lanidrac
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Baez falling off a cliff so soon was completely predictable due to his terrible hitting approach. His elite bat speed was the only thing that held him up as a great or even good hitter, which usually starts dropping when a player first starts hitting his decline phase. The Tigers really should’ve known better.

tung_twista
2 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Baez declining to the tune of wRC+ 88 in his first season was somewhat predictable.
Him continuing to fall to wRC+ 61 and then 26(!) in just two years was not.

Lanidrac
2 years ago
Reply to  tung_twista

Yes, it was predictable, because of the hitting approach issue I mentioned!

anthony.surberMember since 2018
2 years ago

I remember feeling like the Yankees had a new dynasty in the making in 2017. They had Judge going off, Sanchez was the best offensive catcher in the game, Clint Frazier had ‘legendary bat speed’, Severino was an ace, Betances was a lock down closer, and Andujar was still a credible third baseman of the future. Obviously that Judge thing worked out ok, but sheesh. Baseball can break your heart.

TheGarrettCooperFanClub
2 years ago
Reply to  anthony.surber

How different things may have been if they traded Andujar/Frazier. Perhaps for Gerrit Cole.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
2 years ago

Or if they go after Harper/Machado, rather than cutting payroll to get under the Luxury Tax.

Thatguy47
2 years ago

Sucks that Bryant was kept in the minors for 2014. With the insane numbers he posted in 2013 and 2014 he probably would’ve been a good to great player both years, and maybe an MVP contender in 2014. Dude probably missed 40% of his peak b/c of years of team control quarreling and/or too conservative dev.

W/ how far his defense has regressed it’s possible Rutschman ends up w/ the same thing after not getting promoted 2021. Dude probably was an AS caliber player that year.

PhilMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  Thatguy47

Rutschman is at least understandable with the cancelled minor league season in 2020.

Thatguy47
2 years ago
Reply to  Phil

To start the season in the minors maybe but he reason to keep a 23-yo 1:1 pick top prospect in baseball elite defensive catcher running a 140+ wrc+ in AA for 80 games and AAA for 43 games while running ~even K/BB rates and a ~.200 ISO.

synco
2 years ago
Reply to  Thatguy47

For all the various “I’ll remember this when I’m a free agent” threats that go around when guys are buried for service time, Bryant is the one dude who seemed like he meant it and would have held it against the Cubs after 2021. That really was an ugly piece of business.

Coming up in 2013 would have been quite something, since he was drafted that year, but he clearly was ready in 2014.

MoateMember since 2022
2 years ago
Reply to  synco

He was a union rep after all. Some guys understand the fight vs management better than others. A lost of ballplayers are so focused on the game they forget about the business/brand for themselves. The disrespect by the team and what it meant to his value/future shouldn’t be understated.

synco
2 years ago
Reply to  Moate

He was the salutatorian of his high school class (~2,000 kids), so one would think he’s pretty bright.

treebeardedMember since 2019
2 years ago

Love the rewritten poem, and a great read. This reminds me of last year’s Texas Rangers and Chris Young’s philosophy. When you think you’ve got a shot at a title, add talent. When you think you’ve added enough talent, add some more.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  treebearded

He traded Cole Ragans for Aroldis Chapman and probably doesn’t regret it

Make WAR Not LoveMember since 2022
2 years ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

Trading for Aroldis Chapman doesn’t seem to lead to regrets even if there’s a hangover effect.

ChazRMember since 2022
2 years ago

Excellent piece Dan

Groundout
2 years ago

I’d love to see a “ZiPS Time Warp” treatment for the 2016 Cubs, maybe with an extra free agent pitcher or two thrown in

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  Groundout

Well they did trade for Jose Quintana and sign Yu Darvish. Probably good they didn’t sign Trevor Bauer or Patrick Corbin. That just leaves Gerrit Cole and Zack Wheeler

Idli Amin, The Last King of SambarMember since 2024
2 years ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

Ugh, sorry, not to change the subject, but not re-signing Zack Wheeler might be the single dumbest and most short-sighted mistake the Mets have made in the last I don’t know how many years. It’s hard not to think that these past four-plus seasons might have gone very differently had they kept him. He had pretty clearly turned a corner in his career, he wanted to stay, but the Wilpons didn’t even bother to make him an offer.

Last edited 2 years ago by Idli Amin, The Last King of Sambar
Roger McDowell Hot Foot
2 years ago

Would very much like to see a retrospective “Mets plus Zack Wheeler” simulation of the seasons since 2020. Just to make me mad.

OnWI1933Member since 2016
2 years ago

As a Brewer fan, I miss Baez physics defying tag and daring baserunning.

sourbob
2 years ago

The liquor stores in Chicagoland will get a little boost after Cub fans read this article.

GTOBalance
2 years ago

I remember when Bryant debuted, ESPN was cutting away to his live at-bats as a rookie. It was like he was genuinely going to be prime Trout or something. His contract with the Rockies was a clear disaster immediately that’s not really disputable, but to be basically at ‘time to retire’ seems like such a quick career. First impression still hits hard for me

Matthew KoryMember since 2017
2 years ago

Wow. That last paragraph was fantastic, Dan. Really put things into perspective. Thanks for that.

musclepharm52
2 years ago

Dry your eyes, Cubbie faithful: the Cubs still have Carl Edwards Jr stashed away in Des Moines

willl
2 years ago

Could be worse. The World Series winning 2019 Nationals core ceased to exist after 2019.

All players with >1.0 WAR in 2019 (WAR since 2019)
Rendon (3.9)
Scherzer (13.8)
Soto (23.6)
Strasburg (0.0)
Corbin (3.5)
Turner (22.1)
Robles (0.4)
Kendrick (-0.2)
Sanchez (0.0)
Eaton (-0.9)
Dozier (-0.2)
Cabrera (0.3)
Suero (0.0)
Voth (0.3)

Yes, Soto and Turner have remained stars, while Scherzer has trailed off, but still remained very good. That’s it. That’s the end of the 14 core players to the Nats’ World Series victory. The sudden and collective drop off from this team is astounding.

youppi4pm
2 years ago
Reply to  willl

That team won at the very very end of their “window”. The Cubs won at the very very beginning of what was supposed to be their window.

I’m biased as a Nats fan. But I find it weird that their pattern doesn’t really happen.

You typically have teams on the upswing win. And teams like the Cardinals and Giants and Yankees that never are terrible. Rarely does a team building for a 4-7 year period of being really good win in year 6 or 7.

I’m not sure what to do with the Royals and Marlins when it comes to this half-assed theory.

Thatguy47
2 years ago
Reply to  youppi4pm

I don’t think this holds. Just recently Astros won (though they won earlier too), Braves won a few years in, Dodgers won, Nats won, Red Sox won in their last good year (out of 3 straight 2016-18), Giants a couple times…

Pepper Martin
2 years ago

Before the 1981 Dodgers, there had never been a single World Series winning team that hadn’t rostered at least one Hall of Famer that season. There have been a handful since then – the 2002 Angels spring to mind as not having anybody even remotely close to having an argument; Francisco Rodriguez is the closest – but I don’t think the 2016 Cubs are going to join that ignominious group, and it comes down to the pitchers.

Jon Lester isn’t typically somebody you’d think of as a Hall of Famer, but he’s going to go down as one of the last 200 game winneres – as I’ve mentioned before, after Gerrit Cole there are no obvious candidates for 200 game winners anywhere in the pipeline – he was part of 3 World Series winning teams with two major franchises, he was a generally beloved player, and as voters start to reevaluate what constitutes a great starting pitcher and notice the wild dearth of them from the 2000-2010’s, I think he’ll eventually get in via some future Veteran’s Committee.

More likely, though… sigh… look, everybody despises Aroldis Chapman. For very good reason. The domestic abuse; completely walking away from the 2022 Yankees before the playoffs. He’s just a bad human being. But there are plenty of bad human beings in the Hall of Fame. And the fact of the matter is that there’s just never been anybody quite like him. On the “Fame” part of the Hall of Fame, I think it’s going to be pretty hard to keep out the hardest thrower this side of Steve Dalkowski.

MarkMember since 2017
2 years ago

Thanks for the analysis, Dan, and I agree with your conclusions. Sad as it is to see these three cornerstones of the 2016 champs fade away, at least the Cubs didn’t extend them. Fun fact: Baez was traded to the Mets for Pete Crow-Armstrong, as is well-known. Right now, even though PCA has not solved MLB pitching yet, his defense has given him .5 WAR, in fewer PAs than Baez, who is -1 WAR. Anyway, at the time of the housecleaning trades, I said we won’t know who “won” the trades for years, and that’s still true.

Thoughts on 2016: I’ve been a Cub fan since 1966, and got my heart broken in 1969, 1984, and 2003. No matter what happened afterward, the championship was a cosmic event in Cubdom. The day after the championship, I went to one of the memorabilia stands that popped up, looking for a little W flag to put at my parents’ graves. Well, so many others had done the same thing that the vendor had taken to attaching pointed extensions to the short flagpoles. The cemetery was a field of W flags. I’ll never forget it. That’s what 2016 means to Cub fans, and the players will always be special to us. Of course, now we’re just normal baseball fans. Previously, being a Cub fan was to acknowledge the ultimate meaninglessness of existence but not to accept it. Now we just bitch about the front office, the manager’s bullpen handling, and why the hell is so-and-so starting today. That’s okay!