With Their Losing Streak at 12, the Angels Do Something by Firing Joe Maddon

Joe Maddon
Troy Taormina-USA TODAY Sports

Two weeks ago, the Angels beat the Rangers to climb to 27–17 and pull within a game of the AL West-leading Astros. While they had slipped out of first place in the midst of a four-game losing streak earlier that week, they owned the league’s fourth-best record and appeared to be on track to make the playoffs for the first time since 2014. They haven’t won since, however, and with their losing streak reaching 12 games, on Tuesday they fired manager Joe Maddon and named Phil Nevin as interim manager for the remainder of the season, then dropped their 13th straight game with a 10-inning loss to the Red Sox.

The losing streak is the longest in the majors this year and the longest single-season skid in franchise history; it matches a wraparound streak of 13 straight that spanned from late 1988 to early ’89 (a stretch that encompassed the entirety of the Moose Stubing managerial era, such as it was). The current streak, which offsets what had been the team’s best 44-game start since 2004, has dropped the Angels to 27–30, 9.5 games behind the first-place Astros and 2.5 out of the third Wild Card spot. Their Playoff Odds, which stood at 77% before the streak began, with a 20.1% chance of winning the division and a 3.6% chance of winning the World Series, are down to 26.7%, with a 1.9% chance at the division and a 0.7% chance of winning the World Series.

The Angels were outscored 78–35 over the 12 games that preceded Maddon’s firing. Few things were going right at either end, as they allowed 6.5 runs per game and scored a hair under three per game, though four of those losses were by a single run (as was Tuesday’s post-firing defeat). A few major factors have contributed to the slide, including Mike Trout’s ill-timed slump, a couple of key injuries, and a particularly rough schedule.

Trout, who owned a 221 wRC+ at the start of the streak, hit just .114/.204/.205 in 49 PA over Maddon’s last 12 games, including a career-worst 0-for-26 drought from May 29 to Monday night, when he singled in his first plate appearance. While he went 2-for-2 with a double and a two-run homer off Garrett Whitlock on Tuesday night, he exited in the third inning with what the Angels termed left groin tightness. He explained afterward that he cramped up while legging out the double, told Nevin, “I need to be a little careful with this,” and did not seem overly concerned beyond that.

Additionally, Anthony Rendon and Taylor Ward are now on the injured list. Rendon hasn’t played since May 26 due to inflammation in his right wrist. Ward, an early-season sensation who has hit for a 213 wRC+, suffered a stinger in his right shoulder via a crash into an outfield wall on May 20 and started just six of the team’s next 12 games, hitting .167/.259/.333 in 27 PA before going on the IL on Saturday with a right hamstring strain.

Trout, Ward, and Rendon own the three highest position player WARs on the team, and their productivity was limited at best during a stretch against tough opponents. Prior to Maddon’s dismissal, the team lost one game to the Rangers, four to the Blue Jays (three in a row by one run), three to the Yankees (by a combined score of 18–2), three to the Phillies (their first after firing Joe Girardi), and one to the Red Sox, teams with a weighted winning percentage of .575.

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That’s a lot of bad fortune at once, and it particularly didn’t help that the Yankees — the hottest team in baseball and off to the majors’ best start in 21 years — teed off on both Noah Syndergaard (2.1 innings, five runs) and Shohei Ohtani (three innings, four runs). After the latter got only three swings and misses via his 75 pitches, Maddon suggested he was tipping his pitches, telling reporters, “I’m not accusing anybody of anything except that they’re good at it. If you’re able to acquire things through natural means, I’m all into it. I think it’s great… There is things that pitchers can do that other teams pick up on. And when you have a group of guys that are good at that, you get an advantage.”

Ohtani, for what it’s worth, hit just .179/.333/.385 in 48 PA over Maddon’s last 12 games, and in his outing preceding the one agains the Yankees, on May 26, he allowed five runs in six innings to the Blue Jays. The starters as a group were hit for a 6.88 ERA and 5.50 FIP over Maddon’s final stretch, averaging just 4.5 innings per turn with elevated walk and home run rates. The bullpen wasn’t much better, posting a 5.88 ERA and 5.10 FIP, as the offense hit .216/.278/.318. In Tuesday night’s loss, which isn’t included in those numbers, starter José Suarez yielded three runs in five innings, departing with a 5–3 lead that the bullpen frittered away.

If nothing else, Maddon’s firing comes as something of a shock given his stature within the game. The 68-year-old manager, who won a World Series with the Cubs in 2016 and an AL pennant with the Rays eight years before that, is highly regarded within the game and has taken eight teams to the playoffs in his 17 full seasons as manager, compiling a record of 1,382–1,216 (.532). His ties to the Angels stretch back to a playing career that began in 1976 and include six years as a minor league manager (1981–86) and 11 on the major league coaching staff (1994–2005) before becoming manager of the Devil Rays in 2006. Not only is he almost certain to surface as a top candidate for any opening, but his availability also could lead to a sitting manager’s dismissal. Just ask Rick Renteria and Brad Ausmus, both ousted after one year so that their respective teams could hire Maddon.

That said, in Maddon’s two seasons and change at the helm, the Angels failed to post a winning record, first going 26–34 in the pandemic-shortened 2020 season, then 77–85 last year, their sixth in a row below .500. Maddon was in the last year of a three-year, $12 million contract, and while the Angels held an option for 2023 (one that would vest if the team won the AL pennant), the team held off on working out an extension this past winter. It figured that general manager Perry Minasian, who took over from the fired Billy Eppler in November 2020 and thus inherited Maddon, might want to choose his own manager if the Angels’ results didn’t improve.

The 51-year-old Nevin, who becomes the Angels’ fourth manager in five seasons, has never managed a big league club. After 12 years in the majors (1995–2006), he spent eight years managing in the minors, one in an independent league and seven in the Tigers’ and Diamondbacks’ organizations, the last six of those at Triple-A stops. He coached third base for the Giants in 2017, then spent four years in the same capacity with the Yankees before joining the Angels’ staff. He has a reputation for being fiery, unafraid to mix it up with his critics and opponents. “Tell your f–king hitting coach I’m going to kick his f–king ass,” he yelled at the Astros during the 2019 ALCS, referring to Alex Cintron giving him the middle finger as the Yankees alleged that the Astros were stealing signs by using a system of whistles.

“I think it’s just wins and losses,” Minasian told reporters on Tuesday when asked about the reason for Maddon’s dismissal. “That’s what it boils down to. We’re in positions where you need to win games, and we’re weren’t winning games.” More via the Orange County Register:

“I thought this was the right time to make a change, change the mix, per se. We haven’t played the brand of baseball we played early. And I’m not putting that on Joe. That’s not his fault. It’s all of us. Every single person. But at this time I felt like a different mix, a different voice would be good for the group.”

And via ESPN:

“There hasn’t been one phase of the game where we’ve been good… We’ve struggled on the mound, we’ve struggled at the plate, we’ve struggled defensively, we’ve struggled baserunning. The one thing I will say is the effort’s been great. I believe in this group. I know we’ve gone through a tough stretch, but we have 106 games left. And I’m excited about the 106 games.”

Maddon, for his part, said he was surprised by the decision: “We were the best thing since 2002 sliced bread up until a couple of weeks ago and now we’re not, so that’s the part that just doesn’t make sense, but I can live with it.”

While Maddon told The Athletic’s Ken Rosenthal that he thought he, Minasian and the coaching staff were working well together, he did hint at some friction with regards to the information he was receiving:

I’m into analytics, but not to the point where everybody wants to shove it down your throat. Real baseball people have felt somewhat impacted by all of this. You’re unable to just go to the ballpark and have some fun and play baseball. It’s too much controlled by front offices these days.

I actually talked to Perry about this. This isn’t anything new. I told him that. I said you just try to reduce the information you’re giving, try to be aware of who’s giving the information and really be aware of when it’s time to stay out of the way. In general the industry has gone too far in that direction and that’s part of the reason people aren’t into our game as much as they have been.

That’s an odd comment, but it jibes with the perception of Maddon growing more conservative in his managing style over time (his strange bases-loaded walk of Corey Seager earlier this year to the contrary). He came up as an analytical darling and outside-the-box thinker with the forward-thinking Rays — something of a necessity given their budgets — and was particularly aggressive in exploiting players’ positional flexibility with the Cubs in order to get better matchups. He didn’t have the same luxury on the Angels; Tyler Wade is no Ben Zobrist, and Rendon no Kris Bryant. With their stars-and-scrubs rosters and injuries galore, in both 2020 and ’21 Maddon’s lineups had the platoon advantage in less than 50% of their plate appearances, and only this year are they above that mark.

Even so, the Angels have been as bold as any team when it comes to using a six-man rotation, and Maddon has been been on board, at least publicly. While he’s been conservative about letting his starters face batters for a third time — the Angels entered Tuesday ranked 19th in the total number of batters faced under such circumstances — his pitchers held opponents to a .296 wOBA in that context, the majors’ fifth-lowest mark. Even with the slump, the rotation’s overall 3.80 ERA and 4.01 FIP are in the middle of the AL pack, and it ranks fifth in both innings (291.1) and WAR (4.0).

The bullpen, however, is another story, ranking dead last in the AL with a 4.30 FIP, and 13th with both a 4.29 ERA and a 22% strikeout rate. Aside from closer Raisel Iglesias and middle reliever Oliver Ortega, the unit has a distinct lack of power arms; only the bullpens of the Mariners and Diamondbacks have thrown a lower share of fastballs 95 mph or higher. That’s not Maddon’s fault; it’s Minasian’s.

Likewise, the team’s thin middle infield is on the general manager. The Angels got just 2.0 WAR from their entire middle infield last year, with David Fletcher and José Iglesias doing most of the damage. Iglesias is now in Colorado, but Fletcher, who hit for just a 71 wRC+ overall, has been limited to 15 games after undergoing surgery on his adductor and abdominal muscles. This year’s middle infield, which entered the season ranked 26th at second base and 23rd at shortstop in our preseason Positional Power Rankings, has combined for 0.5 WAR, with Andrew Velazquez hitting for a 42 wRC+ as the regular shortstop and Wade and Luis Rengifo getting most of the work at second. To be fair, the team’s defensive efficiency has improved from last year’s .680 (14th in the league) to .722 (third), and from -29 DRS to +3, which has helped the pitching staff greatly.

Like many a managerial firing, Maddon’s dismissal feels like something that’s being done for the sake of appearances, making him a scapegoat for an ill-timed losing streak rather than ousting him in order to alleviate deepening rifts within the clubhouse or between the dugout and the front office. In time, perhaps details will surface that clarify and justify Minasian’s decision, but two weeks ago, this appeared to be the best Angels team since 2014, on pace for 99 wins even with its apparent flaws, with Maddon the right man for the job. It’s not his fault that Trout and Ohtani went into slumps, a couple key players got injured and a solid rotation hit a rough patch, but every manager is hired to be fired, as the saying goes, and in this case, the Angels couldn’t resist the easy move.





Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.

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Schoolboy
4 years ago

I’m okay with ‘the smartest guy in the room’ being the scapegoat.

Sleepy
4 years ago

I will never, ever understand why Ohtani signed, and Trout re-upped, with this absolute train wreck of a franchise—two generational talents… and a combined three Postseason games between them. What a waste.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  Sleepy

It’s a seriously flawed team. They’ve had more successes than they’ve been given credit for and some bad luck, but at the end of the day the owner is is a problem. They make big owner-driven splashes in free agency but also refuse to spend up to the luxury tax threshold, and haven’t invested in player development (even among minor leaguers, the conditions are bad). The willingness to spend money is nice, but overall the successes they have had are largely in spite of him rather than because of him

If I’m Ohtani I’m not signing an extension because I have zero faith in any team owned by Moreno to construct a winning team. Whatever deal he gives to Ohtani is going to be used as an excuse to not spend in the future.

Ostensibly RidiculousMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  Sleepy

Imagine having the best players of 3 straight generations all on the same team at the same time.
Plus the current generation’s best defensive player (peak Andrelton Simmons)

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago

To be fair, 1st generation guy was part of the problem.

Lanidrac
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Only for the second half of his deal, though (and 2013, when he missed half the season to injury). It wasn’t Pujols’s fault that they missed the playoffs in 2012, ’15, or ’16, and he helped get them there in 2014. Plus, his deal was backloaded, so he wasn’t taking up that much of the payroll during those years, either.

It was still a largely regrettable contract, but the first half of it turned out OK.

dl80Member since 2026
4 years ago

Wait, are we counting broken down Pujols as the best player of his generation? That’s like saying Pan AM was one of the best airlines.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  dl80

Maybe a true airline aficionado can correct me, but I believe Pan Am was the greatest airline of its generation. It’s just that it hung on for another 20 years after that. Kind of like Pujols (well, sort of).

jimzMember since 2025
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Since its “greatness” was certainly related to the prestige factor of being the US flag carrier while essentially leaving the need to build a domestic feeder network to its hubs was overtaken by the likes of United and American, and its downfall from “buying an airline” (National, 1980) to selling off its most coveted and profitable routes and landing rights outside of Heathrow (Pacific Sector, 1985) to bankruptcy (with Delta picking up the pieces, 1991) only took 11 out of the 70 year history, I think Pan Am is more Chris Davis than Albert Pujols.

Mahoney
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Let’s throw out the Pan Am analogy for a better one:

Albert Pujols is the Paul McCartney of baseball – arguably the best of his generation, certainly one of the best of all time. The Cardinals got Pujols’ “Beatles” years, and the Angels got his “Wings” years.

shortstop
4 years ago
Reply to  Mahoney

As an Angels fan, I WISH we’d gotten his Wings years… that’d be a major upgrade.

airforce21oneMember since 2026
4 years ago

Who is the first player you are talking about? Pujols?

Ryan
4 years ago

Weird to say Trout and Ohtani are different generations when they’re about 3 years apart age-wise.

joe_schlabotnik
4 years ago
Reply to  Sleepy

the ohtani signing is really puzzling in retrospect.. would be sooo cool if ohtani was a mariner right now
as for trout, i think as fans we foist too many of our ideals onto players decision making. i think he really might not care all that much about whether the angels ever win. hes comfortable and happy and got paid nearly half a billion dollars. really not that hard to understand. his teammate tony rendon has tacitly made it clear he’s really not even all that interested in baseball. seems like a pretty chill way to handle what might otherwise be a stressful life. more power to em

cs3
4 years ago

I haven’t been able to actually read the article yet because I get multiple video popups that can’t be closed. They’re in the middle of the screen, take up about 1/3 of the space, and stay there even when I scroll so it’s not like I can read around them. And even after you have watched the entire video, its pops up again.

And it does this for every article opened, over and over, no matter how many times you try to close or watch the entire ad. I completely understand the need to sell advertising space to support your free content, but in my decade+ of enjoying Fangraphs I’ve never had a problem this bad.
Any chance this can be addressed?
Fwiw, this is on android mobile running chrome.

Last edited 4 years ago by cs3
dl80Member since 2026
4 years ago
Reply to  cs3

It is annoying, I agree. If you get Firefox, you can install the Ublock extension. I just did this a few days ago and it’s made a huge difference.

goodfieldnohit
4 years ago
Reply to  dl80

uBlock is the best invention since gel deodorant.

David AppelmanFanGraphs Staff
4 years ago
Reply to  cs3

We’re looking into it.

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
4 years ago
Reply to  David Appelman

It would be cool if there was a convenient way to report technical glitches like this other than in a chat or article comment. Maybe there is and I just can’t ever find it?

sbf21
4 years ago
Reply to  cs3

I had the same experience for these three consecutive days period to today. Caused me to leave the site. 😞

On the hopeful side this is the second piece I’m reading today without that happening.

Last edited 4 years ago by sbf21
Jason BMember since 2017
4 years ago
Reply to  cs3

If you use the Brave browser on Android, your problems will be totally gone

AlbaNateMember since 2021
4 years ago

Was Maddon on track to be a HoF manager before his Angels tenure? Is that dead now?

Ostensibly RidiculousMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  AlbaNate

He took the Rays (the franchise with the lowest attendance, revenue, salary) to the World Series.
And then he won the World Series with the Cubs. (The Cubs!!!!)

That’s pretty impressive.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago

I agree with you, and also think that it’s very telling you didn’t answer the question 🙂

airforce21oneMember since 2026
4 years ago

Just glancing at the Rays historical record…it appears they have a higher winning percentage after Maddon left than during his time there.

PC1970Member since 2024
4 years ago
Reply to  Jay Jaffe

Boy, there are so many managers of this & the last generation that are similar or have more wins:

Bochy, Baker, Francona– locks due to more wins, more WS except for Dusty who has 2000 wins.
Leyland, Pinella, Sciosia- 300-500 more wins, all have one WS, similar playoff appearances.
Davey Johnson, Martin- similar win #’s, better winning %, have WS titles, too.
Melvin is going to pass him in wins this week & will likely be at 8 playoff appearances after this year..needs the postseason success, but, his book isn’t closed yet.

Are we gonna put in 9-10 managers? To me, Maddon is clearly behind the 1st 6 guys above, in a tier with Johnson/Martin. I’d lean Davey over Maddon, but, Maddon over Billy Martin (partly due to Martin being a colossal jerk).

Last edited 4 years ago by PC1970
PC1970Member since 2024
4 years ago
Reply to  Jay Jaffe

thanks for responding.

I agree on Leyland- On top of the WS title, he’s also got the halo from turning around Pittsburgh from their drug period 80’s teams & Detroit from a 15 year drought. He’s also a cool, beloved guy.

Pinella is interesting- He did win it with Cincy & managed the 116 win Seattle club..but, I can see one thinking he should have done more with what he had in Seattle & Chicago.

Scioscia is probably who I’m lowest on of the 2nd tier. Other than the 2002 team, it seemed his postseason runs were lacking.

Martin’s act certainly hasn’t aged well.Can’t imagine a guy like that even getting a job in any industry in 2022.

We’ll see if Maddon has 4th act. If he does he could move into that 2nd tier.

BTW, i missed Showalter, too. He has more wins than Maddon. If Buck or Melvin get a WS title or an extended run for NYM/SD, they’re legit candidates, too.

Last edited 4 years ago by PC1970
MikeSMember since 2020
4 years ago

Phillies underperform and fire their World Series winning manager.
Angels underperform and fire their World Series winning manager.

Rick Hahn: “You can do that?”

EonADSMember since 2024
4 years ago
Reply to  MikeS

Of the three, TLR is the guy I’d most like to see fired. I remember a comment calling him a “reactionary crank” a couple years ago, and… really, there isn’t a better way to say it. Man’s been lucky to only be mediocre this season.

Girardi and Maddon are both unlikable knobs (imo), but TLR is genuinely bad at both player interaction and in-game tactical moves.

Mahoney
4 years ago
Reply to  EonADS

Agree 100%.

On a related TLR/Maddon themed note, I’d love to see one of the non-rebuilding teams hire Rich Renteria as manager. Him winning a pennant or a WS ring would be karmic payback for getting dumped not once but twice in favor of big-name geniuses after he had led his teams through their tanking years.

Last edited 4 years ago by Mahoney
Doug LampertMember since 2016
4 years ago
Reply to  MikeS

Firing the manager is a “don’t blame me, blame him instead” move by a GM.

The White Sox made the playoffs last year, and per Fangraphs their odds started the season at 72.2%, they’ve underperformed so badly that they are now down to 65.5%, this does not look like massive underperformance.

Hahn is probably saving his ablative armor for later in the season.

proiste
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug Lampert

While Rick Hahn is no savant, I do feel like his club’s mediocrity another example of excessive ownership involvement, rather than his own wrongdoing

David Klein
4 years ago
Reply to  MikeS

Doubt Hahn can fire Tony as he’s tight with Reinsdorf and Jerry regrets firing Tony back in the 80’s and begged Tony to return to managing even though the White Sox front office wanted to hire Hinch.

MikeSMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  David Klein

Yes. This is the problem. TLR is there until he doesn’t want to be or until either he or Reinsdorf dies.

I feel like Hahn’s entire career has consisted of going to his bosses and saying “being 20 years behind the times didn’t work again. Can we try something modern now?”

Last edited 4 years ago by MikeS
sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  MikeS

More like “I wish I could do that.” I wouldn’t be surprised if they fire Hahn and put La Russa in charge of the whole thing.

Ostensibly RidiculousMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  MikeS

Reinsdorf won’t let him get fired. Especially not in the middle of the season.

Dmjn53
4 years ago
Reply to  MikeS

I think it was pretty clear that La Russa was an ownership hire, and therefore would have to be an ownership fire

Just A Guy
4 years ago

It is funny that not even two weeks ago Minasian was bragging to this website about his improvements to team chemistry. That sounded weird then and it is laughable now.

Dmjn53
4 years ago
Reply to  Just A Guy

Which was weird too because it’s nearly an identical roster from previous seasons, unless Tyler Wade and Noah Syndergaard’s clubhouse presence was worth 5 wins in 2 months

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

This is Michael Lorenzen erasure

Jason BMember since 2017
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I prefer Andy Bell erasure

Richie
4 years ago

So with great top-end talent Maddon’s had 2-plus seasons to get the Halos winning, and hasn’t. He started to publicly push back on the front office ‘over’emphasis on analytics. And that bases-loaded walk to Corey friggin’ Seager was the dumbest managerial move since, well, when? When?

Maddon earned this firing. Very, very much so. There’s only 30 manager jobs, and dozens and dozens of qualified candidates for those 30 jobs. After 2+ seasons and beginning to balk with what the front office wants, give another guy a shot. Probably starting next offseason.

Richie
4 years ago
Reply to  Richie

This confirms my suspicion about Maddon. He was iconoclastic but never forward thinking. The genius was in Friedman and the rest of the Tampa front office. Joe was just along for the ride.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  Richie

I think it’s fair to note that if you took the best manager in 2007 out of time and dropped him in 2022, he’d be way behind. Way, way behind. And he was fine for the Cubs at first.

There are at least a couple of possible explanations. One is that he didn’t listen or learn from anyone except the Friedman-led front office. He worked well with them but not with others, and his managing ability stagnated and possibly regressed. This is related to your argument. Along the same lines, it’s possible he would have stopped learning regardless of who he worked with as he became older and thought he knew better.

But I think the most likely situation is that he had better depth with those other teams. With the Rays he had Evan Longoria, David Price, James Shields, Ben Zobrist, BJ Upton, and Carl Crawford to build around, plus a huge cast of supporting players. With the Cubs he was able to use Javier Baez as a super-utility player because the team was so deep. The Angels just aren’t built to survive a 162 game season because they have no depth. If he had even wanted to play matchups, I’m not sure he could have.

shampain
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

A team competing for a playoff spot needs to find about 30 WAR from their roster. Maddon walked in with about half of that already penciled in via Ohtani and Trout, so he needed to figure out ways to get about 15 WAR from the other 24 guys on the roster. That’s all he had to do: coax 0.5 WAR each from a group of guys making something like $150mn collectively to complement the two MVPs he already had.

And he couldn’t do it even once in three tries.

This year they’ve gotten meaningful contributions from Rendon, Ward, Stassi, and Walsh among the position players, and Sandoval, Lorenzen, and Thor among the pitchers. Is it a perfect group? Definitely not, but that level of talent and performance is a lot more than a lot of other managers have to work with.

With all of that to work with, all he had to do was make a Wild Card spot playing in one of the easier divisions in MLB, *once*. That’s it. It’s not exactly the hardest job (or highest-effort) job in baseball.

If he couldn’t be a positive contributor — and *then* publicly blasted his bosses in the media *after* already leaking their plans to start phasing Trout into the COF before they’d had a chance to speak with him — then why keep him around? At worst firing him is a neutral move.

Last edited 4 years ago by shampain
sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  shampain

Oh, I’m not disagreeing with the decision to fire him. He seems utterly miserable and burned out. I also think that the problems go way past him.

FranklinP
4 years ago
Reply to  shampain

Penciled in for 15 WAR? When Maddon arrived ahead of the 2020 season Ohtani had 5.5 total fWAR and a TJ surgery to his name.
2020: Trout: 2.6
Ohtani: -0.1
2021
Ohtani: 8.1
Trout: 2.2 (last game 5/15)
2022 so far
Ohtani: 1.9
Trout: 2.9
Apart from Maddon not being able to pencil in something that’s never happened, using a team’s cumulative WAR as a measurement of managerial performance is weird. Maddon is just as responsible for Trout and Ohtani’s WAR as he is for every other player on team’s WAR: not responsible.

Maddon inherited a team that had won 72 games the previous season and had a .477 winning percentage total over the previous 3. The roster he was given in 2020 sported very few difference making additions, and was 60 games long. Tough to draw many conclusions other than the team was about as good as they were the year before.

Apart from the catastrophic loss of Trout for most of the year, the season was chaos personnel-wise: 62 players appeared in games, 40 of whom were pitchers. It’s tough to coax Wins Above Replacement when the roster, again largely unimproved in the off-season, keeps filling up with Replacement players…and then players to replace the replacements.

They have gotten meaningful performances from those and other players this year, so meaningful that the team was 24-13 as of May 15th. The last time the Angels had been more than 11 games over .500: 2015. Maddon got little/no credit for this…which is fine. Managers don’t score runs. To give him a fireable amount of credit for the streak that followed is silly: managers don’t prevent runs. The Angels were 27-29 when Maddon’s watch concluded, which incidentally is 2 wins better than the previous year’s 25-31 through 56 games.

Won’t even get into painting the AL West as among the easiest divisions in baseball.

I like Joe Maddon a lot. The Angels firing him is a bummer. But they hired him without addressing the many deeper, larger problems with the team. Many of those problems remain, so firing Maddon will likely have the same impact as hiring him did.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago

Maddon looked like he was burned out the last year or two with the Cubs, and he certainly didn’t look less burned out when he was with the Angels. I remember last year (I think) he made some offhanded comment about a trade with the Rays, and how it made sense since “they always had pitchers come out of nowhere.” The subtext was unlike the front office that currently gets players for me. You don’t make comments like that unless you’ve given up.

In any case, the real issue (as the article mentions) is that (1) their pitching is nowhere good enough especially since they have a 6-man rotation and (2) they do not have anything close to enough depth to weather injuries (or underperformance, for that matter). For the position players, some of that is that they don’t have any real replacements in the outfield, some of it is that they don’t really have anyone to play the middle infield much less back them up. For the pitchers, they actually might be okay if they had a lights out bullpen to compensate for the fact their starters don’t get strikeouts, but they don’t have that.

shampain
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

LAA’s rotation is above-average by both ERA and FIP. The performances have been fine for a team with this much star power on offense. The bullpen hasn’t been as good, but it’s been good enough that a skilled manager shouldn’t be losing as many games in a row as anyone in the history of the franchise.

When was the last time a team managed by Maddon lived up to expectations, much less exceeded them? 2016 Cubs, right? Since then he’s managed Baez, Bryant, Rizzo, Zobrist, Heyward, Contreras, Trout, Ohtani, Thor, Lester, Rendon, Simmons, Detmers, Adell, Ward, etc. All just in the past 5-6 years.

That’s more talent than a lot of managers get in an entire career of managing, and it doesn’t include Longoria, Crawford, Lackey, Arrieta, Price, Upton, Chapman, and others from earlier in his career. Has he really optimized all of that talent? Certainly not since leaving the Rays, but arguably not even then (the state of the franchise has only improved since he left, with less overall talent).

He took a supposed Cubs dynasty, nearly cost them a World Series with terrible in-game management, and never came close to that level again. They were happy to let him go, just a few years after they finally won a title, in favor of David freaking Ross!

I see no reason to believe that Maddon is one of the 30 best baseball managers in the world right now, but he’s being paid like the very best. The media liked him because he wore funny costumes on getaway days and talked like The Dude in interviews, but the evidence that he has actually contributed much to his teams winning — especially in the past 6 years — is pretty small.

Say what you will about the Angels’ FO under Minasian, but Maddon has always had talent. Some of the most saber-savvy orgs in MLB didn’t fight hard to keep him. Maybe that’s because he doesn’t actually want to work together with the FO to build an organization that consistently wins. Him blasting his own FO in the media over their analytics usage is consistent with that.

Last edited 4 years ago by shampain
joe_schlabotnik
4 years ago
Reply to  shampain

wow its like you read my mind and then put it into better words. Joe maddon’s most outstanding skill is PR, which is why hes made it this far. He’s a huckster that knows that beat writers will eat up any lame story and disseminate something as dumb and infantilizing as how “fun and goofy” it is to have your grown-ass players dress up like furries for a flight. That is joe maddon’s legacy – making a spectacle out of silly clubhouse antics and using it as a tool to placate the fanbase.
To think we came from the 86 mets to this… it breaks my heart

Lanidrac
4 years ago
Reply to  shampain

To be fair, the Cubs’ lack of a dynasty had much more to do with their inability to develop much decent pitching beyond Hendricks.

Last edited 4 years ago by Lanidrac
joe_schlabotnik
4 years ago

i must say if joe maddon is “highly regarded within the game”, i don’t seem to see much of that fanfare. as savvy fg commenters have pointed out before, it’s been largely exposed that maddon was just riding the coattails of the FO of the rays now that their revolution has spread to the whole game. i wouldn’t be shocked if maddon never managed a big league game again. hes got baggage and seems to be the only manager out there who likes making the game about him. given that managing is largely about keeping players happy, hes one of the last guys i’d think of hiring.

Original Greaser Bob
4 years ago

The pop-up advertisements on this site are making it unusable.

shampain
4 years ago

My anti-malware and anti-virus software is going crazy on this site now.

John DiFool2
4 years ago

The adblocker nagging nanny isn’t much of an improvement.

Schoolboy
4 years ago

Gabe Kapler next, please.

Jason BMember since 2017
4 years ago
Reply to  Schoolboy

Putting in a vote for Gabe Kaplan

Envy AngelMember since 2017
4 years ago

At this rate, the Angels may never win another game. They have had a decade to fix their minor league system, sign enough free agent help, and do something about the bullpen, which for years has done nothing but blow leads. They haven’t done anything about their defensive meltdowns and penchant to give up freak plays. Last night’s game against the Red Sox was the epitome of all that has gone wrong with this team for EIGHT YEARS. I came on this sight last year complaining that I could no longer bear to watch this team anymore, and this franchise worst losing streak has about killed my faith that this team will ever lift the curse it is under. I envy all the normal franchises out there.

Envy AngelMember since 2017
4 years ago
Reply to  Envy Angel

The Angels blew six games they were leading in the seventh inning or later during this streak. Perhaps also wonder what Mike Trout and Joe Maddon were arguing about during Sunday’s game. Trout came into the dugout and had a very long talk with him after yet another blown play in the field.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  Envy Angel

Under the circumstances, I think it’s okay to start rooting for another team. Like the Padres. Or Twins.

Although you’d have to change your username.

Ostensibly RidiculousMember since 2020
4 years ago

Said the Angels:
“I thought by [firing Maddon], it would avoid the big blow. And just to stir up the group, quite frankly. It’s not something you normally do. I thought by going up there and doing something like that, the team might respond to something like that.”

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago

I can only imagine what Ohtani thinks about all this. Jed Hoyer and Jerry Dipoto are probably busy refreshing their sales pitches for the 2023-2024 offseason.

David Klein
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Will Jerry be employed by then? If the Mariners don’t make the playoff this year(and I bet they won’t) might Mariners ownership pull the plug?

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  David Klein

I suppose that’s possible, but aside from spending all that money on Robbie Ray I can’t think of a single thing they’ve done wrong lately. And Robbie Ray still has a chance to turn things around before the contract is up. Jesse Winker has been bad but Suarez has been good. The Marco Gonzales extension was bad but that happened a long time ago. Kikuchi is bad and not a Mariner.

If they fire him, it’ll be because last year’s mirage raised their bar unsustainably high. Which doesn’t mean it won’t happen, but I wouldn’t do it.

David Klein
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Their player development is pretty terrible though Rodriguez has figured it out the other guys have been overwhelmed.

dl80Member since 2026
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Their real problem is the total inability to develop hitting prospects into viable major leaguers (Julio Rodriguez exempted).

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  dl80

Amazingly, offense isn’t their problem. They’re 6th in the league in wRC+. This is what happens when you manage to get your hands on Ty France, JP Crawford, Eugenio Suarez, etc. Kyle Lewis has hit well when he’s been healthy (which is rare). Taylor Trammell isn’t this good but even the peripherals say he’s improved. And they’ve managed to develop good pitching too with Logan Gilbert and George Kirby. It’s just that the guys they committed to on the pitching side with Gonzales and Ray haven’t worked.

I would expect that some of the bats will cool off a little (specifically Crawford, who is outperforming his already good xwOBA) and Ray to pitch a little better but so far they’ve had plenty of offense.

airforce21oneMember since 2026
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Dipoto has been there, what, seven years now? How many times have the Mariners made the playoffs in those seven years?

Lanidrac
4 years ago
Reply to  airforce21one

To be fair, you could say the same thing about nearly everyone in the Mariners’ organization.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  airforce21one

They haven’t made the playoffs, but they also had some pretty good years in there. They won 86 games in 2016 (his first year), 89 in 2018, and then 90 in 2021. So they’ve had some respectability during this time.

This also made it hard for him to do a real teardown, which he actually tried to sort of do after 2018 with the Cano/Diaz, Paxton, Segura, Zunino, and Colome deals. But he held onto Haniger despite having a big year in 2018, and Marco Gonzales after big years in both 2018 and 2019, and Seager despite him being better in 2019.

You can argue with the no-playoffs thing but (1) his team has had winning records in 3 out of 5 full seasons (although it’s not doing great now and wasn’t in 2020), (2) the rebuilding aspect was relatively recent, and (3) it’s entirely possible he was told not to do a total teardown. And aside from decisions around Marco Gonzales–who he really should have traded instead of extended–it’s hard to make strong statements about what he did “wrong.”

Jasper FranciscoMember since 2017
4 years ago

Moose Stubing must have the saddest MLB career ever.

  • As a player, 0 for 5 with four punchouts and a 1-3 groundout.
  • As a manager, 0-8 with a -22 run differential.
dl80Member since 2026
4 years ago

If it makes you feel better, he had a pretty good life. Great minor league playing career, longtime minor league manager, scouted for years after his 0-8 record and snuck in a bunch of college basketball refereeing. Plus, he was married to the same woman for 59 years, lived to 80, he outlived her by only a year, had tons of grandchildren, and was beloved by almost everyone.

I had never heard of him before this, but that’s a darn good life: https://www.si.com/mlb/2018/01/22/moose-stubing-los-angeles-angels-obituary

Last edited 4 years ago by dl80
Charles BalterMember since 2019
4 years ago

I’d sign-up for that career over my own.

speedy
4 years ago

No OF has more than 1 assist. Teams will run on them all year. Minasian likes journeymen Shortstops w mediocre range and arms and below ave bats, who can only play short. Most of the free agents are 1 yr guys. If anything Maddon had them overachieving to start the year. Thats as good as they can be. Now they came back to earth. And no injured player can DH bc Ohtani cant field.

LaBellaVitaMember since 2018
4 years ago

Firing Maddon – understandable. Selecting Nevin – highly concerning. Even I, 20 years ago as a fan, was the target of a Nevin verbal attack. Maybe he has matured.

joe_schlabotnik
4 years ago
Reply to  LaBellaVita

you’ve just managed to make me like nevin more

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  LaBellaVita

I was curious about this so I went to his Wikipedia page and wow, he was messed up. Lots of smaller incidents later but he tried to climb into the stands to attack a fan in ’93.

proiste
4 years ago
Reply to  LaBellaVita

His sometimes mind-numbingly stupid sends of the Yankee gargoyles from second base in recent years would suggest otherwise

FrancoeursteinMember since 2025
4 years ago

The Angels and Phillies are similar in that despite elite top-end talent, they have massive holes in their roster that they never seem to address. The Phillies would be a playoff team if they had just average defense. The Angels would be a playoff team if they had a semblance of depth on the position player side. A middle infield of Velasquez-Rengifo would be bad for a 100 loss team. LAA has been awful at finding solid, everyday regulars the past decade or so… They were a much better franchise with guys like Howie Kendrick and Erick Aybar putting up solid numbers year after year, so they could focus on addressing holes elsewhere on the roster.

Jason BMember since 2017
4 years ago
Reply to  Francoeurstein

On the other hand I do enjoy seeing the Phils’ offense built like a team full of 35-40 year-old softball guys

speedy
4 years ago

Although he’s injured now, Minasian kinda wasted Fletcher’s versatility by playing him primarily at 2nd since last year. He could’ve played 3rd, 2nd, SS, LF, RF. I don’t know why they stopped him playing LF. And then he ends up releasing Upton and Iglesias! And then he gets accolades for “making the tough move” for releasing players (and manager) in the last years of their contracts How about “what’s his plan?”

Lanidrac
4 years ago
Reply to  speedy

They could’ve played Walsh more often in the OF last year, as well. Even Pujols at 1B was a better option than the AAA outfielders they were using.

South DetroitMember since 2020
4 years ago

I think it’s possible he wasn’t the scapegoat of a 12 game losing streak but rather this was the final straw of something they may have been brewing for a while. Perhaps even before the start of the season.

Acknowledging the shortened 2020 season, he still entered the campaign with a losing record as Angels manager.

The message put out by the Angels on their website was certainly blunt and lacking the usual niceties: “The Angels have relieved Joe Maddon of his duties as Angels Manager today. Phil Nevin has been named interim manager.”

I think it’s possible this could have happened in April instead of June if the team got out to a slow start.

Not suggesting that Maddon is entirely at fault…just that I think this is deeper than being a scapegoat for a 12 game slide.

Last edited 4 years ago by South Detroit
The Duke
4 years ago
Reply to  South Detroit

The something that was brewing is simple. The previous GM hired Maddon. It was only a matter of time and Minasian didn’t mess around when the time came.

Charles BalterMember since 2019
4 years ago

I’m not certain this is just about this season and this losing streak, although a slump of this magnitude can kill a team’s season.

In Maddon’s final year in Chicago, the Cubs were 84-78. That team was 73-61 at the end of August and went 11-17 down the stretch.

In his first year in Anaheim – the shortened COVID season – the Angels were 26-34.

Last year (2021), the Angels were 77-85, and this year they were 27-29 under Maddon.

In his last four seasons of managing (featuring two incomplete seasons), Maddon’s teams were twelve games under .500. All of these teams had expectations, and they all were either sub-.500 teams, or they barely kept their heads above water.

There’s always an element of a fired manager being a scapegoat. However, in this particular case, while it might not have been “the right move,” it was also an understandable move that’s not completely surprising.

kylerkelton
4 years ago

It’s almost never 100% the manager’s fault in situations like this. They generally just serve as the fall guy. But Maddon isn’t a good manager and he hasn’t been a good manager for a long time. They game passed him by years ago.