Dansby Swanson Heads to the Windy City

Dansby Swanson
Charles LeClaire-USA TODAY Sports

Why would you want to add a top-tier shortstop in free agency? I can think of plenty of reasons. Maybe you lost just such a player to free agency this offseason; after all, for every star reaching free agency, there’s a team that employed them in 2022 and now has a hole at the position. Maybe you want to improve a team that’s solid elsewhere but has room to improve at shortstop; the Phillies fit that description exactly and snagged Trea Turner earlier this month. Maybe your plan to promote a top prospect is starting to feel risky; if Aaron Judge had left New York, the Yankees might have replaced some of his production in the form of a slugging shortstop.

Or maybe your team just wants to get better and spend more money to do so. For example:

The Cubs weren’t close to contention in 2022, going 74–88 with underlying numbers that largely agreed with that assessment of their talent. They have interesting players on the major league roster and promising prospects nearing major league debuts, but even if several of those situations worked out, there’s a meaningful gap between 74 wins and the 93 the Cardinals posted to win the division. Heck, there’s a meaningful gap between 74 and 86, the mark the Brewers hit in a down year for them. If Chicago wanted to compete in 2023, it couldn’t sit pat.

Fortunately for its playoff chances, it appears that the team never planned to. In 2021 and ’22, the Cubs shed payroll as quickly as they shed wins. In 2019, they boasted the third-highest payroll in the majors, a cool $221 million. They checked in at $144 million (13th) in ’21 and $151 million (14th) in ’22. That’s hardly Guardians-esque, but it’s also meaningfully less than when they were competing for World Series titles.

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In fact, the 2022 Cubs team felt like a skeleton waiting for some flesh to be added to its bones. I always implore rebuilding teams to seek out high-upside players who can either be a part of the next competitive core or fetch something valuable in trade. Chicago did a great job of that, both giving it own prospects plenty of opportunity and letting minor league journeymen have a chance in the majors.

In the meantime, the Cubs also started signing good players last offseason, adding both Marcus Stroman and Seiya Suzuki to a team that certainly didn’t need their contributions right away. It’s hard to go from disastrous to excellent in a single offseason, so starting early makes sense. I still don’t think they’re going to compete for the NL Central crown this year, but with Jameson Taillon, Cody Bellinger, and now Swanson added to the roster, they’ll be far more competitive than they’ve been for the past few years.

If you went by his 2022 season alone, Swanson would merit a larger contract than the one he signed with the Cubs. He played in every game, batted nearly 700 times, and posted both his best offensive and defensive season. Put it all together, and he was worth 6.4 WAR, the 11th-best mark among all hitters. His season was a hair better than that of Turner, and he’s a year younger — and Turner got $300 million from the Phillies. It’s natural to wonder what warning signs teams saw in Swanson.

The obvious one is that he’s only been this good for one season. Before 2022, Swanson felt more like an above-average starter than a true star. He’s always been an excellent defender, but his career batting line before 2022 worked out to an 88 wRC+. That’s like José Iglesias, or perhaps a toned-down version of Andrelton Simmons — a glove-first starter who might spike the occasional All Star season on the back of a good batting line.

If that’s Swanson’s true talent level, he’s less All-Star and more role player. Under the hood, though, I think there’s good reason to believe that his true talent level is, if not a repeat of 2022, somewhere between that and his previous career. Why? Because while there are plenty of holes in his offensive game, he hits the snot out of the baseball, plain and simple.

The above comparisons to Iglesias and Simmons might make sense from a total offensive contribution perspective, but Swanson is nothing at all like them at the plate. He’s not a slap-hitting contact fiend; he’s basically the opposite of that, in fact. For the past three years, he’s been stinging the ball on contact, posting barrel rates above 10% in each year, ranking in the top 15% in the game. Some of that is because he puts a ton of balls into the air — you can’t get credit for a barrel if you don’t hit it in the air — but he also makes a lot of loud contact.

Over the years, Swanson has gotten better and better at getting to his power. That’s how you end up with a higher isolated power in 2022, the year of the new dead ball, than in 2019, the peak of the rabbit ball era. He’s hit more home runs in his past two seasons over a combined 1,349 plate appearances than in his previous 2,038 plate appearances in a higher-offense era. Group 2020 in with New Dansby, and that’s 40 homers in his first 1,774 plate appearances followed by 62 in the most recent 1,613 trips to the plate.

ZiPS buys into Swanson’s newfound pop, projecting him for a slugging percentage nearly 20 points above his career mark in 2023. It sees him roughly the same way I do, as an above-average bat despite his early-career struggles:

ZiPS Projection – Dansby Swanson
Year BA OBP SLG AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB OPS+ DR WAR
2023 .259 .323 .436 582 88 151 30 2 23 83 52 157 12 106 9 4.5
2024 .257 .320 .429 573 86 147 29 2 22 81 51 153 10 103 8 4.1
2025 .250 .314 .412 551 80 138 27 1 20 75 49 145 9 97 7 3.4
2026 .249 .313 .406 522 75 130 26 1 18 69 47 138 7 95 6 3.0
2027 .243 .309 .393 486 68 118 23 1 16 61 44 129 6 91 5 2.4
2028 .238 .305 .379 441 59 105 21 1 13 53 40 120 5 86 3 1.8

ZiPS would have offered Swanson almost exactly the contract he got: $176.2 million over seven years, only $800,000 under his actual deal. And while we’re on the topic of ZiPS, it also spit out 2023 percentiles that suggest there’s a real chance he’ll collect some MVP votes:

ZiPS Projection Percentiles – Dansby Swanson (644 PA)
Percentile 2B HR BA OBP SLG OPS+ WAR
95% 42 36 .314 .376 .548 145 7.8
90% 39 33 .299 .362 .518 137 7.0
80% 36 29 .287 .349 .490 125 6.2
70% 34 27 .277 .339 .467 119 5.5
60% 32 25 .268 .330 .448 112 5.1
50% 30 23 .259 .323 .436 106 4.5
40% 29 21 .252 .315 .419 100 4.0
30% 27 20 .244 .305 .403 94 3.6
20% 25 18 .234 .296 .388 88 3.1
10% 23 16 .226 .283 .367 79 2.4
5% 21 14 .211 .273 .346 72 1.6

The reason that Swanson’s plus power doesn’t translate into an even better projection is another way he’s not like Iglesias or Simmons: he strikes out a ton. He struck out 26.1% of the time in 2022, and he’s at an even 26% over his past three high-power years. Swinging harder and trying to hit home runs has clearly worked, but it hasn’t been without downsides. He also doesn’t walk much despite having a decent idea of the strike zone, because he swings early and often trying to launch fastballs into the seats.

Fastballs? Oh yeah, definitely fastballs. Every hitter in baseball would prefer to see fastballs to secondary pitches, but Swanson is an extreme version of that. Over the past three years, he’s been downright excellent against both four-seamers and sinkers, roughly matching Pete Alonso’s production against those two pitches. That’s home run champion Pete Alonso, career 138 wRC+ Pete Alonso, one of the best power hitters in the game. Swanson looks nothing like Alonso, but when it comes to smashing heaters, they’re shockingly similar.

Throw Swanson anything else, and the story changes. He’s in the top quarter of production against fastballs and the *bottom* quarter of production against all other pitches, cutters included. Most of that comes down to trouble with sliders; he both misses too often when he swings at them and doesn’t do enough damage when he connects. To use the Alonso comparison again, he slugged .717 when he put a slider into play last year; Swanson checked in at .485. He’s a power hitter, no doubt, but it all comes down to whether or not he can punish enough fastballs to paper over gaps elsewhere.

I think he can. He already sees a metric ton of sliders — 26.5% last year — and still manages to hunt enough fastballs to hit for power. In fact, I think that has a lot to do with his low walk rate. He swings at early fastballs in the zone very aggressively, because he knows his own strengths and weaknesses. It might cut down on his chances of walking — you can’t walk if you don’t take pitches — but you can’t make an omelet without cracking a few eggs, and Swanson is only making omelets out of fastballs.

You might also notice, in the above ZiPS projection, that Swanson’s defense is projected to start strong and gently decline over time. I don’t think he’s 15 runs above average defensively at shortstop, which is the mark he put up in 2022 according to Statcast. I’m completely willing to believe ZiPS’ view, though; that would make him a great defensive shortstop but not the standout best defender in the majors. That sounds about right to me; you can’t watch Swanson and deny he’s defensively gifted, but you also can’t watch him without wondering whether he has a big enough arm to be truly elite. Statcast has pegged his arm in the 15th percentile in each of the past three years.

I think it’s fair to say that Swanson is the fourth-best shortstop out of the top four who were on the market this year. Turner, Carlos Correa, and Xander Bogaerts all have meaningfully higher offensive ceilings. But I’ll level with you: the more I looked into Swanson while preparing to write this article, the more I revised my opinion of him higher.

It’s easy to pigeonhole him as a blah hitter who spiked a career year he’ll never repeat heading into free agency. I don’t buy it, though. I think he’s a thumping hitter who will be above average at the plate even if he doesn’t figure something out against breaking balls, but with the chance for more if something clicks and he gets up to even average against them. It’s not like he’s signing for the change in David Ross’ couch or anything, but it’s not the kind of contract that will restrict Chicago’s ability to add other players, even if the team wants to operate on a tight budget. A reasonable deal for a solid player with the chance to be more than that? I like the sound of it.

Swanson probably won’t figure out how to ascend to a new level. He doesn’t have to, though; look at those ZiPS projections. That’s a borderline All-Star every year even if he never figures out how to hit sliders. I don’t think it’ll block anyone on the Cubs, either; Nico Hoerner is also a great defender, but he’ll slide over to second base and improve the entire infield. Throw in Bellinger, and this will be one of the best defensive units in baseball, particularly up the middle.

The Cubs aren’t a finished product yet. They could use a first baseman, and maybe some more pitching. The Cardinals will be hard to catch even if they make those changes, at least in 2023. But that was going to be the case almost regardless of what Chicago did this year. I think the Cubs needed to go out and get someone with the potential to be a star to keep adding to the core they’re starting to develop. Maybe Swanson is miscast as the best player on a team, but he’s an excellent shortstop, and if the they are planning on spending back to their championship-era payroll when their next wave of prospects arrives, starting with him in the middle of everything makes good sense to me.





Ben is a writer at FanGraphs. He can be found on Bluesky @benclemens.

131 Comments
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steveo
3 years ago

I’m not really sure why zips likes Swanson so much tbh. Most of his value this year came from defense and seems to have babip’d his way to a good year offensively. He’s a solid player, but it wouldn’t surprise me if this is one of the worst contracts in MLB in a year or two if he doesn’t replicate those defensive numbers and he reverts back to a 100 wRC+ bat that he was just one year ago.

Original Greaser Bob
3 years ago
Reply to  steveo

His BABIP spiked because of the HRs. It’s not like he’s a slap hitting speedster running out infield GBs. Plus his xSLG is higher than his actual SLG so I don’t think the power is a mirage.

Any player signed to large contact runs the risk of injury and having their contact be underwater for the team. I don’t see anything that makes Swanson any more likely to fall apart than any of the other recent FA SS. Even if he only hits his 30th percentile that’s a good season for a WC chasing team.

Last edited 3 years ago by Original Greaser Bob
CC AFCMember since 2016
3 years ago

Home runs are not included in babip

connjc
3 years ago

How does more HRs lead to a spike in babip?

MikeSMember since 2020
3 years ago

I think I am missing something, I don’t understand your first sentence.

His HR didn’t spike. He had 27 HR in 2021 with a .297 BABIP and 25 last year with a .348 BABIP. He had 43 more PA last year too. HR shouldn’t affect BABIP anyway. They aren’t in play. I guess they decrease the denominator a little, but not as much as K or BB since there are far fewer of them.

slz
3 years ago
Reply to  MikeS

HR can affect BABIP – loud contact turning into HRs takes BABIP away from loud contact turning into hits. Bonds ran quite a few low BABIP years due to this.

That doesnt make any sense in context to Swanson’s last season, however.

averagejoe15Member since 2018
3 years ago

Home runs did not turn Dansby from a .290-.300 BABIP hitter into a .350 one. The difference between 17 homers and 25 doesn’t move the needle that much. He also hit more homers in 2021 than 2022 and his BABIP was 50 percentage points lower.

It was really BA luck that drove his BABIP spike in 2023. He overperformed expected by 20 percentage points.

Dansby’s 2021 and 2022 were actually very similar. He underperformed a bit in 2021 vs. expected (looking at wOBA) while he basically hit expected in 2022 by wOBA (with BA luck but underperforming SLG).

I think anything between a 100 and 120 wRC+ wouldn’t be surprising for 2023. Though hitting the top end would require further improvement.

Last edited 3 years ago by averagejoe15
Original Greaser Bob
3 years ago

It’s right there in the name right? Batting average on balls on play. Yikes!
My point on the HRs is that his contact rates and xSLG show that it’s not totally a fluke.

carterMember since 2020
3 years ago

Babop!

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
3 years ago
Reply to  steveo

Need sad trombone in here stat to talk about Eric Aybar.

This contract is actually way safer than most. It blows the other short stop contracts out of the water in terms of potential. It only takes Swanson to age 35 instead of 40, so it’s likely there is little dead weight at the end of it. And Swanson has clearly shown that he can add value on the bases, in the field, and with okay power for his position. One of those could disappear and he’d still be a very good player.

raregokusMember since 2022
3 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Looks like he beat you to the Erick Aybar reference in another comment. lol

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

The Erick Aybar Zone is the most useful heuristic I’ve come up with to explain positional adjustments and how they matter.

I think it’s wild that we have gotten to a point where a guy who is probably only the 5th best player on a contender is getting deals like this, but it’s the market we are in and at least it is a stable profile.

Scott MoorhouseMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

In 2022, Swanson was the best player (0.9 more WAR than any teamate) on a 101-win team.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago

If you’re gonna take his 2022 as a baseline, then sure. But that doesn’t seem likely. And if we are being strictly literal, I must point out that he had the 7th best fWAR on the Braves in the actual championship year of 2021 (behind Freeman, Riley, Acuna, Albies, Morton, and Fried).

Scott MoorhouseMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

That’s quite a pivot from when you originally said he was “probably the fifth best player on a contender.”

You replaced “contender” with “team that won a championship” and then completely dismissed his most recent year.

Mahoney
3 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Agree with you on Swanson. If Erick Aybar is a Honda Civic, Dansby Swanson is a Honda Accord (I say this as a lifelong Honda fan.)

JSJohnSmithAnon
3 years ago
Reply to  steveo

Why do people still use BABIP when we have xwOBA?

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago

I don’t trust Dansby Swanson at all, because he seems to have pretty big spikes in his BABIP that will drive his entire offensive profile. It’s not like it’s a mirage–in both 2020 and 2022 it was backed up with his x-stats. It’s just that whatever he’s doing, he has trouble doing it consistently.

So no, I don’t think he’s going to do this regularly, and I also don’t think his defense is that good either. If you asked me who I thought he was going forward, I’d say his 2021 is what to expect. Above average shortstop defensively, league-average hitter, good baserunner. In other words, solidly in the Erick Aybar Zone(tm), a guy who doesn’t stand out in any one area but is valuable because of the whole package and his ability to play a premium defensive position.

That said, I do think that although he won’t do 2022 regularly, I do think he will repeat is occasionally. This is a lot of money to give to anyone but I do think one or two times over the life of the contract he’ll get hot and turn in another 115 wRC+ here and there. And he’s young, so he’ll still be pretty good when guys like Pete Crow-Armstrong is ready. It’s a bit of a rich deal for a guy who isn’t a high-end star, but I get it and he fits.

Mahoney
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Glad to see the trademark got approved!

Chili Davis Eyes
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

But can you even get a high-end star for this kind of money anymore, unless he’s well into his 30’s? Seems like the real high-end stars (Judge, Turner, Correa) are going for twice the price.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago

Not in this free agent market, no! This is why teams need to be proactive with signing top players to extensions early. Sure, many of them go sideways, but enough of them pan out so that it is usually a good idea.

SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Erick Aybar’s career high in HRs was 10 HRs. Granted it came during the last decade’s dead ball and he was secretly a quality player, Orlando Cabrera also comes to mind, but yeah Swanson’s way better

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

The Erick Aybar Zone is really just about two things: (1) something like a league average bat and (2) value that comes exclusively from being good enough defensively to stick at a hard-to-fill position. It explains how players who don’t seem to be “elite” at anything and seem very average can still put up a surprising amount of value, simply because their “eliteness” comes from defensive ability that gets coded into the positional adjustment. That’s 2021 Dansby Swanson right there, even if he got there differently than Aybar did.

Now if you think that 2022 is his new baseline going forward, then I will disagree with you there. When he does that, I think it’ll be as a bonus season every 3 years or so. But because he’s in the Erick Aybar zone in the off-years, it’s not really as big a deal. When Dansby Swanson (or Erick Aybar) is a league average bat, he’s still a rather valuable player. When Eric Hosmer is a league average bat, he’s unplayable–but if he played shortstop like Dansby Swanson, Hosmer would be pretty dang good.

Last edited 3 years ago by sadtrombone
Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

To be fair, Hosmer was only unplayable as a league average 1B due to how much he was being overpaid. He has a lot less overall value, which is kind of your point, but a number of (granted, mostly non-contending) teams would take Hosmer as their starting 1B at a reasonable salary. We’ll see which one picks him up.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

sadtrombone is talking about when Hosmer runs a ~100 wRC+.

Since he’s roughly a -5 fielder and a -5 runner, that adds to the -12.5 1B positional adjustment to make him a replacement-level player.

An Aybar is an average bat who’s a +5 runner and a +5 SS…which adds to the +7.5 positional adjustment at SS to be a 3-4 WAR player.

Lanidrac
3 years ago

He/she said a “league average 1B,” meaning if his defense is also average for a 1B.

Besides, WAR has always overrated defensive and baserunning value compared to offensive value. Actual teams consider Hosmer with a league average bat to be at least a little above replacement level. Offense should be considered at least 70%, likely more, of a player’s overall value if he’s not a pitcher nor a catcher.

Likewise, Aybar isn’t truly that valuable, as would be seen if defense and baserunning were actually weighted better in WAR calculations.

Last edited 3 years ago by Lanidrac
Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

No, they said “League average bat,” haha.

SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I say expand the scope of your analysis, include batted ball, and you’ll see the massive gap btw an Aybar and Swanson. All this free Data and there’s like 3 stats in use to make full evaluations of players online doesn’t really jive

hughduffy
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

It’s just that whatever he’s doing, he has trouble doing it consistently.

Having watched Dansby Swanson over the years, he is one of the streakiest players I’ve seen. He’s either got his timing down pat, and he’s walloping the ball all over the field (June 2022), or he’s cooled off and not hitting a lick (August 2022).

That said, he hits the ball hard, and since 2019, his hard hit rate continues to stay high, his exit velocity has stayed high, and his launch angle has increased just a bit. His improvements at the plate are for real.

With his swing, it really is a timing issue. If you google “Mark Derosa Dansby Swanson breakdown,” one of the links should be to a segment he did on MLB Network breaking down Swanson’s swing. In April 2022, he was late on the fastball. In May 2022, he started loading his swing just a little bit earlier. Dansby’s issue will be maintaining that timing through an entire season, something he still has yet to do.

Sometimes I think playing all those games wears him down, and that’s why he’s had some of these rough months in the second half of the year, but that’s something the Cubs will get to figure out.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago

One other thing–I don’t think the Cubs are going to trade Nico Hoerner. I think they’ll be pretty happy having him bounce around the infield, particularly at 2B and backing up at SS. Nick Madrigal and Christopher Morel are still pretty interesting, but Hoerner (if he can stay healthy) gives you another excellent defender and a league average bat. The Erick Aybar zone applies here, too.

That said, if the Cubs were willing to swap him, I think they could get some pretty good, MLB-ready talent from the Dodgers, whose current plan involves playing everyone in the infield one step too high on the defensive spectrum. In a post-shift world, Gavin Lux and Chris Taylor are not shortstops, and Max Muncy is not a second baseman anymore (or third baseman, really, but I suspect Vargas will play there a lot too, which is also not great…). I think they could potentially get two of the Pepiot / Grove / Jackson / Stone trio in AAA (all of whom look like potential major league starters soon). Michael Busch is also basically ready for the majors and could be a co-headliner with one of the pitchers, or a guy lower on the list.

I don’t know if that’s enough to get the Cubs to bite, but if you were to make a list of guys who can be a starting player at shortstop who is available in a trade right now, and San Diego refuses to deal with you, I think Hoerner is the only player who could even plausibly be available and be good enough to start on a team with championship aspirations.

Mahoney
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

If the Dodgers would make it worth their while, the Cubs might bite, but I agree it would take something big to pry Hoerner off the Cubs hands, given the current options at second base. I’d also love to see how a healthy Kyle Hendricks would do with a plus defense behind him, at least up the middle.

Trading Hoerner might also be wise if the Cubs could somehow land one of the Toronto catchers. This would probably have to involve a third team since the Cubs don’t appear to align with any of the Jays’ needs strongly enough to make a compelling package by themselves.

SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  Mahoney

Fun to say but I’m not sure the Dodgers have anyone they’d give up the Cubs would truly be into. Maybe Diego Cartaya ha

I think they wanted Swanson bad

Last edited 3 years ago by SenorGato
cowdiscipleMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

You might be able to pry Edman or DeJong away from the Cards with the right offer? There isn’t much.

I am moderately shocked by the Dodgers’ apparent willingness to settle for their current infield.

Last edited 3 years ago by cowdisciple
sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  cowdisciple

I’m pretty sure you could get DeJong for a younger, cheaper utility guy who can cover shortstop in a pinch, because I think that’s how they’re going to be using him this year. He hasn’t been a league-average hitter since 2019. But for that reason, I would expect the Dodgers to roll with Jacob Amaya rather than trade for DeJong.

I don’t think Edman is going anywhere. He’s not very exciting as a plus-fielding second baseman, but as a plus-fielding shortstop he’s incredibly valuable. Maybe once Masyn Winn establishes himself he’ll be expendable.

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

It just seems unlike the Dodgers to punt infield defense at every position as Plan A. The Cards are (or at least should be) desperate for pitching. Clearly Edman would cost them more, but I think the Cards would be interested in the aforementioned MLB ready pitching prospects.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  cowdisciple

If I’m the Cards, I’m not dealing Edman unless Bobby Miller is one of those two pitchers, or I get my pick of 3 guys in the Pepiot / Grove / Jackson / Stone group. If I’m the Dodgers…I think I would do that, actually. Probably I’d prefer the latter one as opposed to the former.

tdouglas
3 years ago
Reply to  cowdisciple

The Cardinals will give Dejong away for a song, but Edman just put up a 5 WAR season and is the only above-average middle infielder on their roster. The shift ban probably stops Gorman from being played at second (or it should, at least), and Donovan is average (at best) at second base and only has one season under his belt. With all viable shortstops gone in free agency, Edman becomes one of the more untouchable players in MLB.

The Rays and similar clubs who wheel and deal arbitration players would definitely be taking calls on him, but asking a playoff contender to subtract at least 3 WAR from their club to get some pitching prospects simply doesn’t work. I think Edman will be the next position player the Cardinals will try to extend long-term, anyway, unless Winn makes a miraculous jump from 50 FV prospect to 60+, can’t miss potential superstar.

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  tdouglas

I personally think Edman is maybe the most underrated player in the game, but it’s hard for me (as a Cardinals outsider) to tell if the team agrees, since they won’t give him a position.

He got a lot of that 5 WAR from defense and will probably only be a slightly above average hitter in a good year. Really he and Swanson are pretty similar players in my mind, although Swanson has more power upside.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  cowdisciple

Edman was still clearly a starter last year who played in 153 games. He just hopped between the middle infield positions depending on whether the other middle infielder playing with him was a stronger (DeJong or Sosa) or weaker (Donovan or Gorman) defender than him.

In the second half of the season, he mostly settled in at SS with Sosa having been traded and DeJong either in AAA or on the bench.

tdouglas
3 years ago
Reply to  cowdisciple

It doesn’t matter how you get your value as long as you get your value somehow. Nothing wrong with being defense-oriented, though Edman isn’t terrible with the stick and is among the best runners in MLB. I said STL would lose 3 WAR in any trade as a conservative estimate. Anyone who replaces him would be projected around 0.0 WAR, because STL literally has no other viable shortstops, so I was projecting Edman as a 3 WAR guy. It’s possible STL would be giving up 4 or 5 WAR in a possible trade, which would catapult the Brewers into NLC contention.

But if you’re willing to pay a couple million of Dejong’s deal, he’s all yours.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

The Cardinals would have to eat most of DeJong’s salary just to give him away, so they might as well just keep him as a late inning defensive replacement and PH vs. LHP.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  cowdisciple

The Cardinals aren’t giving up their starting SS in Edman, while DeJong’s contract is below water. Try again.

SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Not going to trade Nico Hoerner *yet*
but give it a couple years

Last edited 3 years ago by SenorGato
mariodegenzgz
3 years ago

Swanson’s agent did a great job, because I’m pretty sure the Cubs were his number 1 target by a lot. His wife plays in Chicago, after all. Good for them.

I also have a hard time seeing this contract turning out badly. His foundation as a ballplayer is super steady: good SS glove, great baserunner, 50+ XBH power, very durable. Unlikely to repeat 2022, but something in between 2021-22 is definitely doable. Good for Dansby and Mallory, good for the Cubs, and what a double play combo that’s gonna be with Nico Hoerner.

Last edited 3 years ago by mariodegenzgz
Domingo AyalaMember since 2024
3 years ago
Reply to  mariodegenzgz

These are the positives that not many are talking about. Swanson was the most valuable of the four big shortstops available and they’re getting him for a fraction of the cost. Most likely, he plays like he did in 2021 and he is a 28 year old 3.5 win player with a high floor and a little bit of upside on top of that.

Niels-Henning Orsted Joc Pederson
3 years ago
Reply to  Domingo Ayala

At Baseball-Reference, these are the career WAR-per-600-plate appearances numbers for some well-known shortstops:

Carlos Correa 6.5 WAR/600
Trevor Story 5.0
Tommy Edman 4.8 (included him due to previous posts)
Trea Turner 4.8
Francisco Lindor 4.7
Xander Bogaerts 3.9
Dansby Swanson 2.5

Offered without comment.

Last edited 3 years ago by Niels-Henning Orsted Joc Pederson
Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago

My comment would be:

“Which is why you should use DRS as part of an aggregate.”

Or

“This is why projection systems weight 2017 performance and 2022 performance differently”

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  mariodegenzgz

Yep – he’s a 3.5 WAR guy with a 95 wRC+ and a 4.5 WAR guy with a 105 wRC+.

Mahoney
3 years ago
Reply to  mariodegenzgz

I missed the angle about his wife’s team being from Chicago. If you’re going to pry a guy away from his hometown team, this is the kind of thing that helps a lot.

FrancoeursteinMember since 2020
3 years ago

This one hurts, not gonna lie!

Antonio BananasMember since 2016
3 years ago

.702 OPS in the second half last year but…

But his expected HR in Wrigley last year is 33 vs the 25 he actually hit. The Central has weaker pitching and Wrigley seems to favor his bat. So maybe there’s a benefit to that.

Having excellent defense up the middle may help with young pitching confidence as well so that could be another positive externalities. He also seems to have legitimate leadership skills too and not just the stereotypical hard working white guy “leadership”, “gritty”, “first guy to the park” skills.

I like it.

sbf21
3 years ago

Those hard-working, lead-by-example, team-first guys come in all shades and colors and ethnicities.

Antonio BananasMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  sbf21

Of course thats the case in real life, but who does the vast majority of sports journalism assign that role to? Its a trope at this point.

There’s tons of evidence of this. It’s why, as a Braves fan, I was skeptical of him as a prospect. “Intangibles” “hard working” “leadership” etc. I thought “great, Eric Hosmer”.

https://www.wbur.org/onlyagame/2020/06/26/racial-stereotypes-sports-broadcast-bias

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/oct/02/athletes-racism-language-sports-cam-newton

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/White-and-Black-Quarterback-QB-Descriptors-Specifically-by-White-Announcers_tbl2_254306037

You’ve got to have your head in the sand to not hear it in virtually every draft, sports game, etc

Point is, Dansby legitimately has those skills and it’s not just an excuse to overrated a very “good” player.

Last edited 3 years ago by Antonio Bananas
airforce21oneMember since 2026
3 years ago

Maybe some white guys have to try harder in order to compete at the highest level?

Anon21Member since 2018
3 years ago
Reply to  airforce21one

I don’t really understand this…”try harder” than what or who? Swanson grew up middle class in suburban Atlanta, went to Vanderbilt, and signed for a $6.5 million bonus. Compare him to his double-play partner Ozzie Albies who grew up poor, had to hit his way off the island, and signed for $350,000.

I’m certain that both worked hard, and the vast majority of middle-class suburban kids have neither the talent nor the drive and focus to make the majors. But again, if you’re going to say that people in Swanson’s position “tried harder,” you really need to state who you’re comparing them to.

Antonio BananasMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  Anon21

This is a “self aware wolves” moment for airforce21one.

Dansby has to “work harder” than the naturally gifted others…you know, the exact same thing the articles I lined describe.

marinmccoveysMember since 2026
3 years ago

The Cubs aren’t close enough to truly becoming perennial contenders to justify this large of an investment in a talented but inconsistent player. Paying “market value” on a deal like this makes sense for a team that’s “close” but not for a rebuilding franchise. The money sink just holds the latter back, as it makes more game theory sense to spread the bread around.

jgawelMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  marinmccoveys

They have little in the way of commitments after 2024 and have to sell a competitive team to the fanbase. Would it be better if they had a strong foundation of MLB ready prospects like they did in 2015? Absolutely. But ultimately, it’s a business decision that they could afford to make without significantly hampering their baseball decisions in the future.

Besides, Swanson is still probably a good player when they have more talent coming up to the big league club.

Last edited 3 years ago by jgawel
marinmccoveysMember since 2026
3 years ago
Reply to  jgawel

He’s already hit his peak and likely had his career year. By the time they are ready to compete he will be on the wrong side of 30 but they’ll be paying him nearly 30 million a year. I don’t buy that this brings them up to an 81-85 win team. I agree with Steamer which pegs them around 75-76 wins AFTER signing Swanson. I also don’t think that the Cubs need to make this move to draw fans. They’ve got a lot of built in goodwill given their history and stadium. I just see this as a 25-30 million dollar cap hit for a declining asset who won’t be putting up 5-6 wins a year by the time they are ready to make a run. That’s a big hit that will likely inhibit their ability to upgrade elsewhere. Y’all can down vote my opinion all you want but let’s bookmark this and check back around mid season next year, when they are likely to be 5-8 games behind stl and maybe mil and below .500.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  marinmccoveys

You need to open up the calculator app and divide 177 by 7, haha.

Anyway, Swanson’s essentially a rich man’s Brandon Crawford – that skillset ages pretty well.

fjtorres
3 years ago
Reply to  marinmccoveys

It makes them respectable; 81-85 floor.
It’s a weak division, third place floor with a shot at second.
It gives fans something to dream on.
Not a likely wild card but they’ll be watchable.
And the Cubs aren’t paupers, they don’t have to pinch pennies.

Jason BMember since 2017
3 years ago
Reply to  fjtorres

One quibble – the Cubs, as currently constructed, do not have an 81-85 win floor. There is absolutely a world where this team is below .500, and it’s not much of a stretch. I don’t think they have been published yet, but I would guess their win projection right now would be like 83.5 wins, so it wouldn’t take much underperformance at all to be sub-500 (like maybe a 35th percentile result; by no means a 3-standard-deviation outcome)

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  marinmccoveys

The thing is, there are no shortstops of this caliber or better that will be available next offseason, and the season after that the only one after that will be Willy Adames. If Trevor Story recovers his form he will opt out, but there aren’t many other options other than those two.

So if you decide you really need a shortstop, and there’s a 28 year old guy there who is good, it’s not crazy to think he’ll still be this good 2 or 3 years later. I think that looking at the Cubs’ farm system that there is real justification for ensuring you have a shortstop on hand.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  marinmccoveys

One more thing while I’m at it: If you were to ask me how I would rank the Swanson, Stroman, and Taillon signings I would put Swanson first by miles. There is really no need to pay for pitchers on the downslope of their careers, for the exact reason you state. But Swanson, although not an obvious choice because the Cubs are still bad, will still be good when the kids are up. That makes a huge difference.

Fun-Hating DorkMember since 2019
3 years ago
Reply to  marinmccoveys

Sometimes you have to pay in 2023 to get what you’ll need in 2024, because it won’t be there in 2024 to take. Their outfield is starting to take shape (basically whichever 2 of PCA, Davis and Alcantara pan out with Suzuki). They’ll still need a bit more in the rotation and pen – Stroman and Taillon are OK, but they are no one’s idea of an ace.

I think the combination of player fit, the Chicago tie with his wife’s team, payroll freedom and timing in the competitive cycle, this is a very good deal. That they got him at a fraction of the cost in dollars and years is gravy.

SenorGato
3 years ago

The SS I wanted as a Cubs fan, by far the best skills fit as a guy who plays defense up the middle, makes hard contact in the air, and is very durable. I suspect he ages more like guys like DJ LeMaheiu, Adrian Beltre, and Mike Cameron thanks to the high Value of his foundational skills and (knock on wood) good health. I think he’ll be as good if not much better than any of the more popular FA SSs moving forward,

Another thing I like about Swanson is the Cubs twitter hive had deluded themselves into a One Man approach to the offseason. This is to say they wanted to sign Correa and hope to hold serve until 2024, erasing the Age advantage they loved him for. It was all a roundabout way of making everything about the Ricketts’ money and not building a winning team. I see all 3 of Bellinger, Taillon, and Swanson as excellent moves towards building a team, 2/3 because they’re healthy and bonafide starters with skills that top teams Value

Now hopefully they do more…alls I’m asking is like Evan Longoria, Roberto Perez, Matt Moore, Daulton Varsho, Jesus Luzardo, and Joey Wendle

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

This is not the point of the article or even your comment, but I am consistently amused by how frequently people seem to think that getting Daulton Varsho is going to be a simple, easy deal. A guy who is a league average bat and plus center fielder and good baserunner is outrageously hard to find. People are going to go into shock if he is traded, because the return is going to be huge; think Brennan Davis, Jordan Wicks, Ben Brown, and Miguel Amaya. That’s the kind of deal you’re looking at. I don’t think the Cubs are going to do that to get a time share with Bellinger and back up the corners, or to convert him back to a position he can’t really play (catcher).

SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

This is not the point of the article or even your comment, but I am consistently amused by how frequently people seem to think that getting Daulton Varsho is going to be a simple, easy deal.

Ftr I have no such delusions…Pay up, Cubs! Tbh not too worried they’d actually have to give up Davis or Wicks. Davis is coming off back surgery plus an early AFL exit and Wicks almost closed his year hurt before sneaking a few outings in. I’m in the Cubs fan camp than trading from Cristian Hernandez, Kevin Alcantara, Kevin Made, Hayden Wesneski, Ben Brown, DJ Herz, Moises Ballesteros, Owen Caissie, maybe Justin Steele, James Triantos, and Amaya is A -OK even a good idea…

I also would accept Leody Taveras. Maybe that requires trading Ian Happ

Notably Carter Hawkins didn’t specify position when talking Bellinger, just said he upgraded the defense, and Keith Law among others has referred to him as an elite defensive 1B. To me the Value in signing Bellinger so early is they could make a play at either CF (Varsho, Taveras) or 1B (Nick Pratto would be my runaway choice) with Bellinger manning the other spot

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

Ok, cool. I still don’t think they’d do it, but I get where you’re coming from now.

SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Yeah, I’ve got no expectations they’ll do it. The Cubs are still a cowardly and mediocre franchise, have a fanbase happy to wait ‘til next year even 5 years and are intensely loyal to the latest prospects. Good baseball’s the only reason to do it and well…thats never really been enough of a reason for Cubs

fjtorres
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Why would the Cubs pay for Varsho if they believe in Crow-Armstrong?
The one year trial with Bellinger is perfect. If he succeeds they can re-sign him and move him as needed, if not they move on.
It’s unlikely Crow-Armstrong is ready for ’23 but ’24 is a fair target.
What they need is pitching. If they can find *one* arm worth trading Hoerner for (Lopez?) they should.
Otherwise, wait and hope on the kids.
Or Obtani, like everybody else. 😇

SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  fjtorres

Call me crazy but the Cubs aren’t making decisions built around making room for prospects. Crow-Armstrong had like a 5/1 K:BB in High A, maybe he’s hoping to be Daulton Varsho. If anything 2023 related hopefully they’re trading PCA+ for Ohtani!

fjtorres
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

Not one on one, one presumes.
LAA isn’t run *that* bad.
I doubt Ohtani gets traded anywhere.

He’ll soldier through another year, go FA, and go to LAD for a mint. That will be a bidding war of biblical proportions.

Mahoney
3 years ago
Reply to  fjtorres

Ohtani will be the first guy to break the half-billon dollar threshold for total contract value. If I owned the Angels I’d give Minasian the green light to offer 11/500 – in terms of real dollars (not estimated surplus value) that deal would pay for itself in 2-3 years vs. the alternative of letting Ohtani walk and dealing with a supremely pissed off fan base.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Mahoney

I am increasingly convinced that there is literally no contract in the world that could convince Ohtani to sign with the Angels long term. The guy came over before he could be paid his actual value because he is a serious competitor, and he’s expressed in interviews how frustrated he is with the lack of winning. And now the team is up for sale, so you’ve got the Juan Soto problem as well where the new owner could actually be worse.

I think he probably views everything through that lens now, so that any outlandish would serve to convince him that he’ll get at least 80% of that somewhere else. He’s so close to free agency, and I bet teams would sign him to outrageous deals even if he has to go through TJ again.

Famous Mortimer
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

He was able to watch Angels games before he signed with them in the first place though, right?

Mahoney
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

Cubs should hold onto PCA and Alcantara if possible, at least until they get a better read on whether Bellinger can return at least halfway back to his MVP-year form. They’re both great near-term lottery tickets imo.

SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  Mahoney

That runs the very real risk of ending up with zero players

I’m also much more confident about Brennen Davis than most in this moment

Niels-Henning Orsted Joc Pederson
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

But you’ve omitted the fact that Crow-Armstrong had very *good* plate discipline numbers at his age-appropriate level of Low-A.

In fact, Pete turned 20 just before Opening Day, so if you squint you could even say he was a bit young for Low-A… where he had a fine 22/33 BB/K tally, and a tremendous 174 wRC+. With the bat potential, plus the solid CF glove and baserunning, he’s the kind you keep.

SenorGato
3 years ago

Feel free to weigh his age 20 A ball stats more, doesn’t fly for me. In the context of an elite HS prospect from an elite program two years removed from the first round – I see that A ball stuff as necessary to maintaining not raising

His speed and defense give him real ML potential but I don’t see an impact hitter at this stage. Carroll and Bradfield Jr. are the whales with similar tools but much more dynamic skills

SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

Swap out Perez for Curt Casali…Tomato/Tomahto really since Perez was hurt last year for the Pirates

Tyler Norton
3 years ago

Dear Chaim Bloom, I’m available.

Dmjn53
3 years ago

Kind of weird to me that this is the guy Chicago finally decided to pay. Swanson’s a solidly above average player, and probably will continue to be for a while, but the Cubs don’t have much to gain from a 3-4 win player. Swanson’s probably the 4th or 5th best player on playoff team, just feel like they should have went after a guy that moves the needle

SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

Fun facts:

– There are 9 5+ fWAR seasons between the 4 FA SSs if you include a 162 pace for 2020. Trea Turner, a fellow former elite college SS, is the only one with 3

– If you leave 2020 as is there’s 7 seasons (of out a possible 24/25 at least right?) of 5+ fWAR between the 4 and Swanson’s all of 1 behind the pack

What was Correa on the best Astros rosters but the 5th maybe 6th best player behind Altuve, Verlander, Cole, Bregman, and Alvarez? Heck, Swanson was just the best player on the NL East division champs

Last edited 3 years ago by SenorGato
airforce21oneMember since 2026
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

Fun fact: Swanson is projected for 19.2 WAR over the next six years.

Correa is projected for 28.3, almost 50% better than Swanson.

SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  airforce21one

Oh wow, impressive facts. What could go wrong in expecting nearly 5 fWAR a year from Correa, something he’s done twice,
over the next half decade+?

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

If there’s one thing I trust with players that are huge for their position, eclipsed 150 games just once in their 20s, and have a history of back problems…it’s that they’ll be incredibly durable going forward!

SenorGato
3 years ago

I’m still trying to figure out why it’s more Valuable to project than to be

SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

Update: still fascinated by how The People vote. No wonder the empire’s falling apart when you can just sell expectations as reality

Last edited 3 years ago by SenorGato
Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  airforce21one

That projection also thinks Correa will have more PA than Swanson over that span.

I’ll…take the under on that, given that Correa has yet to manage a <i>two year span</i> with more games played than Swanson, haha.

If you project their relative durability over the next 6 years as identical to the previous 6, the numbers are:

Swanson: 19.2
Correa: 23.7

SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  airforce21one

This thing got 7 thumbs up to -1? Good Jah, the hive is even larger than I suspected…RIP internet, at least I got a taste of the pre-corporate era

SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

Hilarious this didn’t go over *here* of all places….Wooooo, can’t wait for these guys to get started

fjtorres
3 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

He’s not a face of the franchise player and he’s not getting paid like one.
He’s getting paid like a youngish 3 WAR guy.
By this year’s market it’s good enough for both sides.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  fjtorres

In fairness, he’s very much getting paid like a 4-ish WAR guy…which makes sense, because that’s what he is!

Since he started consistently elevating the ball in 2020, he’s been at 4.8 WAR/650 – it’s 4.2 if you want to include 2019, where he started off great but got hurt and started rolling over it again in the 2nd half.

sogoodlooking
3 years ago

“Statcast has pegged his arm in the 15th percentile in each of the past three years.”

—-Makes me wonder what the cutting edge program is for shortstops to optimize their throwing strength and accuracy without sacrificing elsewhere, and if Swanson is in on it beyond just throwing from deep short over and over.

v2miccaMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  sogoodlooking

Yeah, Swanson has never had a particular strong throwing arm. But, as you inferred, he managed to overcome that disadvantage with a very efficient throwing motion and above average accuracy.
He’s a classic example of just being above average at almost all other aspects of the job combining to make him a very good player.

lavarnway
3 years ago

I wish Swanson nothing but the best and I’m glad he got a great payday! He had some awesome moments as a Brave. I’m glad that the Braves didn’t do this contract. He’s a solid player but not irreplaceable.

SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  lavarnway

The Man thinks we’re all replaceable and our collective response is “you’re right, please take all the money and privatize all recourses then”

I suspect the Braves will struggle to fill the position more than expected, especially defensively, and people will fall in line to explain it away one way or another…There’s plenty of outs: cap space, prospects, Future, Not That Good, so on

lavarnway
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

Probably so but I’m still glad the Braves didn’t do this contract. I’m sure they didn’t expect to sign Swanson, so they have a plan.

SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  lavarnway

The plan looks like pocketing the cash and reap the multi-year rewards of winning a WS and then the division. Easy peasy for the owners

lavarnway
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

The Braves have been spending more than they ever have in franchise history. The entire fanbase knows this. Did you miss all those contracts they gave out last season?

SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  lavarnway

I didn’t miss it so much as am not so easily impressed or duped by multi-billion dollar entities flashing some money in a moment

The Braves aren’t going to fall off a cliff without Swanson but they’re worse and the owners have positioned their fans’ free will (for sure a real thing) opinion to this being OK.

Tbf this is across pretty much all teams and sports now. Whatever our owners are willing to give is good enough and fully explainable all the time

lavarnway
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

Braves fans aren’t as carried away by Swanson as you think we are. We are very pleased with our front office and ownership.

SenorGato
3 years ago
Reply to  lavarnway

I do not doubt this for a second

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

They committed $21.5M AAV over the next six years to Harris and Strider, haha!

They also signed Austin Riley to a $21m AAV deal over the next 10 years.

Honestly, the Braves are as clear cut a case as you’ll find of a team immediately reinvesting their WS dividend into the on-field club.

lavarnway
3 years ago

Exactly. Thank you.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  lavarnway

The Braves don’t print money like the Yankees or Red Sox, so AA does have to stick to a (very comfortable) budget.

I think this was a very reasonable contract for Swanson…and I also entirely understand why the Braves decided to spend that AAV on Harris from 22-28 and Strider from 24-30 rather than on Dansby from 29-35.

SenorGato
3 years ago

The Braves don’t print money

Sure, they steal and we forget even give them excuses

SenorGato
3 years ago

In the context of a WS and division champion club in a capped league with a new publicly funded stadium that took billions in tax revenue away from the municipality dumping two star players over money, what is impressive about this? These guys win so easy

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

Hm?

They’re paying Olson as much from 28-35 as the Dodgers are paying Freddie from 32-37, and they’re paying Harris and Strider as much through ages 28 and 30 (respectively) as the Cubs are paying Swanson through 35.

Each decision is far more about age and team control than about cash.

SenorGato
3 years ago

I get that this is better for younger players but how does putting the Value in age and control make them any different from any other org? It’s risk free spending, playing with house money and not unexpected for where the sport and org is

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

What makes them different is that AA actually gets these deals done, haha.

The Braves are owned by a publicly traded conglomerate, rather than a single rich guy, so the luxury tax threshold does act as a de facto cap for them.

Within those constraints, the choice between $51m against the Luxury Tax for Freeman and Swanson over the next 5 years vs. $51m AAV for Olson/Riley/Harris isn’t actually much of a choice, is it?

SenorGato
3 years ago

What makes them different is that AA actually gets these deals done, haha.

Yes and, again, in full context of the economics this is infinitely less impressive than you think. Pushing around some kids who signed for nothing into team friendly extensions is not some special skill, it’s standard for any corporation and Good Business (all hail)

Believe me, I wish I could take the world at face Value but it requires a blind eye and turnt face that I wasn’t born with

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

…then why don’t more teams do it, my guy?

You’ve been moving the goalposts so much that I don’t think you even remember your initial line of complaint, at this point.

I’ll refresh your memory:

You were citing the Freeman and Swanson deals as evidence that the Braves aren’t reinvesting the money from the WS win back into the team.

Lavarnway pointed out that they’re running a record payroll, and I added the additional context that they’ve given out the same AAV that Freeman and Swanson are getting since the WS win…over the next 8 years, via the Olson, Harris, and Riley extensions.

SenorGato
3 years ago

…then why don’t more teams do it, my guy?

They don’t have to? Even still, it’s happening more and will continue to thanks to long stagnant amateur money (now capped) and the power of Data (all hail) to keep salaries and payrolls in check

You’re looking for trees while standing in a forest, my dude. If you want to be impressed we have the very real not made up free will, but you’re making the conscious effort to see as little as possible here to the benefit of entities that don’t need it

Last edited 3 years ago by SenorGato
Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

I enjoy the constant references to “The very real not made up free will,” which seem to be an allusion to something that no one else in this thread has said, at any point.

SenorGato
3 years ago

I’m just a non-believer in the whole free will

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

So, let’s do this:

Make a positive argument for why investing $51M a year of Luxury Tax money into Freeman and Swanson through 2027 would have been a smarter move than investing that money into Olson, Harris, and Riley.

SenorGato
3 years ago

Why? Who is arguing that?

This is like being impressed by the Rangers spending, spread over a half decade+, a total dollar amount that lines up with the up front public money they received up for the new park. We all have the very real free will to be impressed but it requires something of a blind eye

Last edited 3 years ago by SenorGato
Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

Ah, so we’re on the same page!

The Braves used their WS dividend to drastically increase their payroll.

They decided to spend that money by locking up Riley/Harris/Olson’s 20s, instead of on Freeman and Swanson’s 30s.

In doing so, they made the right call both in terms of building the best possible baseball team now and building the best possible baseball team in the future.

Yay! Agreement!

Last edited 3 years ago by Cool Lester Smooth
SenorGato
3 years ago

The Braves used their WS dividend to drastically increase their payroll.

Lalala what I’m saying all you want so you can end up here, perception is reality and we’re all the freest, but this is a massive oversimplification to prop up a narrative that benefits one entity and one entity alone (whatever it is that owns the Braves)

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

Luckily, this is a case of reality being reality!

In 2021, the Braves ran a $156m CBT Payroll.

In 2023, the Braves are currently running a $195m CBT Payroll.

There’s no ambiguity, here. Just you making shit up, then moving the goalposts when you get called out for it.

SenorGato
3 years ago

Just you making shit up

To some extent you’re right – I confused Cobb (Georgia) and Dade (Florida) county. The Braves “only” got ~$400 million up front from taxpayers plus valuable real estate, subsidies, a parking garage, etc etc

I totally get pretending it’s as simple as payroll went up after the WS therefore they reinvested the WS money. If there’s any shared experience among the masses anymore it’s playing pretend about what’s going on around us

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

…and the topic changes yet again.

Kevbot034
3 years ago

I don’t see what this does for the Cubs still.

Ironically, Swanson/Taillion and maybe even also Bellinger were signings that I thought made a lot more sense for STL or MIL.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  Kevbot034

Neither team could’ve afforded to give Sawnson even $20M/year, let alone $25M+/year. Both of those teams are also already set with very good starting rotations. Bellinger…maybe.

JayMember since 2023
3 years ago

One thing I find interesting is that Swanson had almost 700 PAs last year, tied for 8th most in MLB. He played all 162 games and based on his career it’s fair to project him to stay healthy going forward. Still, I don’t know if it will be possible to get 700 PAs on this Cubs team even if he bats leadoff every day. It’s just not a good offense and the lineup will not be turning over as many times as Atlanta’s did. The Cubs had a 98 wRC+ last year and now they’ve lost Contreras, by far their best hitter. Compare that to Atlanta’s 111 wRC+. And barring a huge Bellinger resurgence there’s just not a scary hitter in Chicago’s lineup. Happ is solid but he’d be like the 4th best hitter on an actual playoff team. In addition to likely getting fewer PAs it will be interesting to see how Swanson is affected by not having guys like Acuña, Olson and Riley flanking him in the lineup.

stormintazz
3 years ago

I don’t see Swanson getting the protection he had in the Braves line up. Can easily be pitched around. Don’t see his numbers continue unless Cubs add another bat.

Hayward V2.0 probably not, but nothing like his Atlanta numbers.

Last edited 3 years ago by stormintazz
stanMember since 2019
3 years ago

The thing I don’t get is that the Cubs already have Nico Hoerner, who can provide similar value at shortstop at a small fraction of the cost. And Hoerner becomes pretty useless if he’s not playing at shortstop because most of his value is defense so the last place you’d expect the Cubs to add a player this offseason is shortstop.

They’d even be better off decreasing Swanson’s value by playing him at 2b or 3b than moving Hoerner. But with a price like that the Cubs basically have to play Swanson at ss. That means… you just flushed a young cost controlled 4 WAR shortstop down the drain, or you can trade him for a fraction of his value.

Like the article said, I could see someone giving Swanson a contract like this, but the Cubs are just about the last team for whom it makes sense.

Last edited 3 years ago by stan
jgawelMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  stan

2B defense becomes more important with stricter shift rules.

hughduffy
3 years ago
Reply to  stan

The Cubs don’t have a good second baseman right now. With Swanson at SS and Hoerner at 2B, you’ve stabilized both positions for the foreseeable future.

Nick Madrigal may be out of a job though.

It makes a lot of sense for the Cubs, especially since Swanson is a better hitter than Hoerner is, and probably will continue to be. Hoerner has also shown that he can play second base at a major league level already.