How to Sign Shohei Ohtani

The Shohei Ohtani show has unofficially begun. After missing over a month with a thigh issue, Ohtani returned to the mound two weeks ago, with scouts from half of the Major League teams reportedly in attendance. For his start on Tuesday night, both Andrew Friedman and Jerry Dipoto were known to be in the stands to watch in person, a start in which Ohtani was clocked at 101 mph and allowed just one hit over 5.2 innings. And after that start, reports from Japan have begun to suggest that there’s an agreement in place for Nippon to post Ohtani this winter, clearing him to come to the Majors for the 2018 season.

Yahoo’s Jeff Passan has a good breakdown of the situation.

It isn’t about the money. Athletes reflexively say this, and sports fans roll their eyes, because of course it’s about the money. It’s always about the money. Then along comes Shohei Ohtani, 23 years old, the finest baseball player Japan has produced in years, maybe decades, a once-in-a-generation sort who can throw 102 mph and hit tape-measure home runs, a player whose free-market value would start at $200 million if Major League Baseball didn’t restrict the signings of international players under 25 to barely $10 million.

Only Ohtani, it seems, does not mind the prospect of giving up literally hundreds of millions of dollars to play in the greatest league in the world. Multiple reports out of Japan on Wednesday morning there said the same thing: Ohtani, who has been called the Japanese Babe Ruth, will enter the posting system this winter and play for a major league team in 2018. This came as no surprise to the general managers and scouts who have flocked in recent weeks to watch him pitch for the Hokkaido Nippon Ham Fighters. It also didn’t lessen their excitement any.

“It’s really happening,” one GM said, half-mocking, half-giddy at the prospect of the 23-year-old spicing up the free agent market this winter. And fascinating as his courtship would be in normal circumstances, the prospect of the best player available signing one of the most piddling contracts makes it unlike any free agency sports has seen: One where it literally isn’t about the money.

Because last year’s CBA raised the age of international prospects covered by the bonus-pool system to 25, Ohtani isn’t eligible for true unrestricted free agency for two more years. Rather than wait that long — and as a pitcher, two more years of good health is no guarantee — Ohtani will reportedly be posted this winter and then sign under the same rules by which 16-year-olds are bound. He’ll receive a signing bonus of some size (up to about $10 million) depending on which club he ultimately joins and then sign a standard uniform player contract that binds him to the arbitration system until he accrues six years of service time.

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That means that, as a rookie next year, Ohtani will be scheduled to make something like $545,000, the league minimum for 2018. And he won’t be in line for a real market-rate salary until after the 2023 season. If Ohtani stayed in Japan for two more years and stayed healthy, he’d be able to land the monster free-agent deal four years sooner. There’s no way around it: coming over this winter will cost Ohtani a lot of money.

And as Passan goes on to note in his piece, with Ohtani walking away from such a significant paycheck in 24 months, there’s little reason to believe that he’ll choose his next destination based on whether a team can offer him $10 million or $300,000, a sum to which many teams will be limited because of penalties they’ve incurred for exceeding their bonus pools in recent years.

But let’s also be realistic: money still matters. While the league has already made it clear that they won’t allow side deals to circumvent the bonus-pool limitations, Ohtani and his advisors will almost certainly factor potential future earnings into their decision of where to sign. And future earnings aren’t just driven by endorsement deals or marketing agreements. It’s basically impossible to imagine a scenario where every single MLB team agrees not to make some kind of overture about what they might be willing to do with Ohtani’s next contract.

And there will be a next contract. The only question is when, and what sum MLB will determine is allowable. I wrote about this last year when the CBA was announced.

But let’s just go along with the hypothetical for a second. Let’s say that Ohtani doesn’t mind leaving a couple hundred million in guaranteed money on the table, and he really is willing to come over after next season and go through the bonus pool system. In talking with people with knowledge of the language that will go into the actual contract that the league and the MLBPA will sign, I’ve confirmed that teams will not be allowed to circumvent the bonus rules to treat Ohtani differently. They can’t give Ohtani a shorter-term contract with free agency at the end of the deal, like other Japanese veteran free agents often receive. Anything that was seen by MLB as an agreement made to side step the bonus pool limitations would be disallowed.

But it brings up an interesting question; for how long must Ohtani and the MLB team that signed him stick with the standard pre-arb contract? At what point could the league no longer argue that a long-term extension was a pre-arranged deal designed to circumvent the rules? Because it is no longer unusual for players to sign long-term extensions very early in their careers.

Passan gets at this in his piece too.

Since the new rules regarding international players were announced, the question surrounding Ohtani has been some derivation of: How is he going to skirt them? Officials at MLB insist any effort to subvert the spirit of the rule will not be allowed. Would the league, for example, attempt to cancel a nine-figure contract extension for Ohtani if he stars in his first season? One official said precedent will matter, and any contract that doesn’t have a forebear will be considered a violation. Might a team attempt to negotiate an under-the-table deal to make whole Ohtani as well as the Fighters? It could, though MLB believes the possibility of being caught and sanctioned will scare teams straight.

Every good young player gets approached about signing a long-term deal these days, and there’s no way MLB can order teams not to treat Ohtani similarly. So the question will be how close to the “forebearers” does Ohtani’s next deal have to look? And when can he sign it? And if you want to sign Ohtani this winter, the ability to — legally, which means not officially putting it in so many words during the official visit — provide a clear and legitimate plan for getting Ohtani to his next contract might be the deciding factor.

Obviously, this is all wild speculation given that we don’t even know officially that Ohtani will be posted yet. But if Passan’s right about the standard being that it just has to look something like prior early-career extensions, then teams should be able to convince Ohtani that he’s not that far away from a significant guarantee.

The current record for largest guaranteed dollar amount to a player with one year of service is the $58 million extension Andrelton Simmons signed with the Braves back in 2014. It was a seven-year contract that bought out five years of team control and two years of free agency. That deal was nearly smashed this spring, however: it’s widely believed within the industry that the Indians offered Francisco Lindor more than $100 million to sign a long-term deal to stay in Cleveland, an offer which Lindor reportedly turned down.

Both of those young shortstops were coming off terrific seasons. In all likelihood, Ohtani will have to put up a strong rookie season to get himself and his new team’s executives enough distance from his original signing to allow the deal to pass muster. There have been some long-term extensions for guys with almost no big-league experience (Evan Longoria, Jon Singleton, Matt Moore, and Salvador Perez), but the guarantees on those deals were so small that Ohtani wouldn’t be interested in using them as comparisons. To get to some real money, he needs to get a year of service under his belt.

And then it gets interesting. If Ohtani shows he can impact the game as both a pitcher and a hitter next year, it’s not that hard to argue that he’s more valuable than Lindor, and Lindor reportedly walked away from seven figures. If Ohtani lives up to the hype, I think a team could reasonably argue that the singularity of his abilities, along with the rapid rise in the valuation of young players, combine to make a deal for $100 to $150 million sufficiently comparable to precedent that the league couldn’t stop it.

But Simmons’ deal and the reported offer to Lindor both required those players to surrender free-agent years. Teams basically don’t do arb-only extensions for early-career players anymore, and after already pushing his chance at free agency back four years, Ohtani might be disinclined to push that back even further. So if a team wants to interest Ohtani, they might be well served to (through backchannels, of course) communicate an idea about how they might get him a pretty decent guarantee without forcing him to surrender the chance at free agency following the 2023 season.

And one way to do it might be to include both an opt-in and an opt-out.

Since Ohtani’s next deal will have to have some predecessor, perhaps the arbitration language could be borrowed from the deals signed by guys like Jose Abreu. As a true free agent, Abreu signed a six-year, $68 million contract that guaranteed him $34 million over his three arbitration years. It offered him the ability to opt-in to arbitration, though, instead of accepting the agreed-upon salaries for the last three years if he felt he could earn more by going through the arbitration system.

Abreu did just that, and agreed to a one-year, $10.8 million deal to avoid arbitration last winter. It was only a small raise over what he was originally guaranteed, but it’s a precedent that a team could use to suggest to Ohtani how they could structure a deal next year.

Say, for instance, a team — in a way that maintained plausible deniability, of course — suggested to Ohtani that they’d be open to guaranteeing Ohtani significant money over a seven-year term while also giving him the right to void the agreed-upon salaries if arbitration promised more significant raises. That way, Ohtani would get the security of guaranteed money if he gets hurt, but would retain the ability to make even more money in arbitration if he does prove to be a two-way superstar.

That’s the opt-in portion of the offer and would ensure that Ohtani didn’t have to sign some early-career extension that stuck him in a Madison Bumgarner or Chris Sale position, making a fraction of his value through his prime years. That could be an appealing option for any young pitcher.

The opt-out portion could hinge upon whether Ohtani chose to use the opt-in.

For instance, let’s say this hypothetical offer (after Ohtani successfully completes a strong rookie season) is something like $125 million over seven years, a supersized version of what Cleveland reportedly offered Lindor. But, citing as a comparison every contract the Washington Nationals have offered the last few years, the deal would be heavily backloaded, with most of the money coming after a fifth year opt-out. Maybe you even put $100 million of the $125 million in those last two years, knowing that $50 million a year in 2024/2025 won’t look that crazy once Mike Trout and Bryce Harper reset the free-agent landscape in the next few years. But you make the opt-out disappear if Ohtani chooses to void the guaranteed salaries in lieu of going to arbitration.

Then you’d effectively set Ohtani up for a choice after his third year, assuming he was effective and stayed healthy.

  1. Opt-in to arbitration and dramatically increase his earnings from 2021-2023, but forego the opportunity to become a free agent until after 2025.
  2. Remain significantly underpaid through his arbitration years but reach free agency after six years instead of after eight years.

In the first scenario , the team would get Ohtani for a total of eight years instead of just six and could reasonably argue that the contract offers enough long-term upside for them that it’s within the realm of what other great young players have been offered with one year of service time. I don’t know how MLB could justifiably refuse to let a team sign Ohtani to an extension that bought them two free-agent years.

In the second scenario, which probably represents the more likely one should Ohtani live up to the hype, the signing team locks in underpriced arbitration salaries for an elite player, and the league gets to avoid having Ohtani just blow the roof off any prior arbitration records. The signing team wouldn’t get extra years of control, but they would get Ohtani’s arbitration years for a total of $25 million, when he’d probably double that if he had gone year to year.

In either scenario, as long as Ohtani turns into an elite player, the signing team gets a long-term cost savings. And if Ohtani isn’t good or gets injured, he’s guaranteed no less than $125 million in career earnings, so he trades some financial upside for a very high floor. That exactly the security/savings trade-off that these early-career extensions are supposed to provide; this one just happens to be on a much grander scale.

Now, again, MLB teams can’t just stick this kind of promise in the presentation they’ll make to Ohtani and his agents, and maybe he really will just choose to sign with whomever he wants and postpone any thought of his next deal to a later date. But despite the league’s desire not to have the bonus pools circumvented by a promise of money above and beyond the initial signing bonus, it’s hard for me to imagine a scenario where no one tries to suggest something along these lines.

If you want your team to sign Ohtani this winter, you probably better hope that they are already figuring out what their second offer to him might look like, because the first contract might not be the one that matters.





Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.

144 Comments
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southie
8 years ago

Damn it’s going to suck when the Yankees land this dude.

fjtorres
8 years ago
Reply to  southie

Maybe he’ll go to Cleveland where he can be RF and fifth starter. 😉
(Plus, with the Lindor precedent the big contract would be implied. Cleveland has 20 years history with those contracts.)

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  fjtorres

He’s almost certainly going to be a DH or 1B if (when) he plays every day. No one is putting him in right field when they want to manage his pitch count.

fjtorres
8 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Almost a certainty.
I was just jokingly cautioning against assuming he is a certainty to go to NY. Or LA. Or anywhere. (And if he really wants to be Babe Ruth, well, the babe was rf. 😉 )

– With $20M posting fee cap there is little reason for any team not to make a pitch.
– With MLB’s current online and video structure he won’t lack for attention wherever he plays and he won’t lack national and international marketing deals as long as he performs.

I (seriously, now) think it will come down to how committed he is to being a two-way player and for how long. What is his preferred fallback position? Does he want 500 PA or will 200 do? Does he insist on playing the field (1B?) or will DH do?

All teams can bid but they won’t all use him the same, give him the same environment.

Also, how does he weigh intangibles?
The Chisox have a history of reducing injuries to hard throwing pitchers. The Mets and Dusty Baker, less so.
Does he want to be the straw that stirs the drink or a low key environment? Does he want an up and coming team or one at its peak?

The money will be there.
The rest is where he needs to choose.

Stevil
8 years ago
Reply to  fjtorres

The point about teams’ histories handling pitchers is an excellent one.

Prior to Charlie Furbush undergoing the knife last year, the Mariners had been surgery-free for ages (with pitchers, specifically involving arms), if I’m not mistaken. Since then, Tony Zych had somewhat of a pioneering surgery last offseason, and though Seattle had a few arms blown out this year, they’re all kind of exceptions in some way. Smyly never made it out of spring, Marshall and Weber were extreme short-timers in an M’s uniform. Heck, Weber was in the 3rd inning of his first start.

Rick Griffin has been their head athletic trainer since 1983. The players have loved him (Griffey made sure that was clear) and their history with pitchers speaks for itself, despite the barrage of oddities that’s plagued them this season.

Maybe this is one of the hooks that could help persuade Ohtani to come to Seattle. It’s history with Japanese players and the short, direct flights to Japan certainly wouldn’t hurt. It’s not a stretch to think that the perks and other promising comforts could tip the scales for a team.

Aaron Judge's Gavel
8 years ago
Reply to  fjtorres

“Does he want an up and coming team or one at its peak?”

If he signs with the Yankees, they will be an up and coming team AND at their peak. Up and coming peakness. Peak up and coming.

Boy this winter is going to be interesting.

crew87Member since 2016
8 years ago

I wonder if teams will get creative in a way there’s nothing MLB can realistically do about it. For instance, if Otani has a wife that the team could employ in their front office, which wouldn’t be bound by any salary cap. Sounds ridiculous, but this is a way colleges get around recruiting restrictions all the time, by “hiring” recruits’ parents as coaches/athletic department officials (who often have little to no big-time college experience).

Shirtless George Brett
8 years ago
Reply to  crew87

Something THAT obvious could and would almost certainly be axed by MLB. In fact that is not all that far off what the Red Sox got punished for doing a few months ago with IFA’s.

DookieHowserMD
8 years ago

No, that isn’t similar at all to what the Red Sox were punished for. The Red Sox used the prospects agents to spread the money around differently than what they reported to the league. This allowed them to pay some guys over the 300k threshold.

Shirtless George Brett
8 years ago
Reply to  DookieHowserMD

The commenter was suggesting hiring people related to Otani as a way of circmventing the rules and paying him more than they were allowed too.

The red Sox signed other players in the same sphere as the player they wanted in order to circumvent the rules and give him more money than they were allowed.

Essentially both ideas are funneling money to a player via intermediates.

I feel like that qualifies as “not all that far off”.

NeilMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  crew87

I think this reasoning is pretty sound, even if the particulars might be too obvious. Along the same lines, a team could work out deals with a local college or NGO if Otani has a spouse or sibling that’s planning on accompanying him and wants to make the most of their time. (I teach a lot of international students at a college. It isn’t uncommon for business people to be accommodated in this way.) There are plenty of options, lots of room to get creative.

frangipard
8 years ago
Reply to  Neil

If they were trying to slip him an extra fifty grand through his wife’s job, sure. But we’re talking multimillions here. You can’t launder that so easily.

NeilMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  frangipard

Sorry, I was unclear. I’m not describing ways by which a team could launder money. Rather, I’m thinking of more generally intangible benefits: education, career- or skills-building opportunities for family members, involvement in the community or causes, etc. There are ways to set people up for life that aren’t necessarily tied to additional money and are more likely to pass muster.

Boxkutter
8 years ago
Reply to  crew87

That’s a smart thought, but wouldn’t a smarter team employ his wife/brother/etc in a non-baseball role? Most owners own other companies and not just baseball teams. Wouldn’t it be easier and smarter to appoint the wife as some board member to some company and give her a $10 million/year salary where that much money for that kind of position is seen as common? Then she is outside the scope of MLB, but the money still comes from the owner.

Max Power
8 years ago
Reply to  crew87

Something similar to the Red Sox IFA laundering that could happen: There are reports that Otani wants to sign wherever Darvish signs because they’re really good friends. If that ends up happening, the team could overpay for Darvish (some of which would go to Otani), which wouldn’t be as scrutinized by MLB, since, hey, they’re just paying a really good player a ton of money. Of course, still very illegal, but less likely to get as figured out then hiring someone vastly unqualified.

merlin401
8 years ago

Is there a maximum that teams can pay a player during the first three years of a rookie contract? I know Trout and Bryant, etc have argued for and gotten small raises to about $1 million/year just because the team saw it as a token of goodwill not to hold them literally to league minimum. Would something stop a team from just giving Otani a raise to $10/million a year, just because?

bunslow
8 years ago
Reply to  merlin401

“just because”, no way the MLB wouldn’t launch an investigation into that.

(Not saying it won’t happen, just saying it probably wouldn’t be easier to pull off than the various other methods mentioned/discussed)

d_iMember since 2016
8 years ago

There’s been speculation that him and Darvish might be a package deal. Will be curious to see if Darvish’s price ends up being higher than it otherwise would be- especially given his relatively disappointing year.

CC AFCMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  d_i

That’s basically the exact thing the Red Sox did with some international signings last year and MLB voided the contracts and banned the Sox from signing any international free agents for a year. So that wouldn’t seem to be a viable work around here.

d_iMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

Their “sin” was that the money was actually spread among the players via the agents. I’m not suggesting that would necessarily be the case here. What if Otani just wants to play with Darvish and Darvish gets to essentially reap a portion of the amount that Otani is “forfeiting”.

CC AFCMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  d_i

I see. I though you were suggesting that Darvish would kick back some of that to Otani.

Shirtless George Brett
8 years ago
Reply to  d_i

The red sox sin was circumventing the cap by giving bonus money to other players who had the same agent with the intention that said money would be funnelled back the the player they actually wanted. Therefore allowing them to pay him more than the cap allowed.

DookieHowserMD
8 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

The difference with the Red Sox case, though was that all players involved were all international prospects and the team pretty much directed their agents to spread the money around differently than what was on the books.

If a team wanted to sign Darvish to an above market salary, and Darvish didn’t just turn around and give Otani a portion, there would be nothing wrong with that.

willl
8 years ago
Reply to  DookieHowserMD

There wouldn’t be anything wrong with that if the signing team gave no inclination that their overpay of Darvish had anything to do with them signing Ohtani, which is frankly an absurd proposition. But as soon as there is the unspoken understanding that the excess money given to Darvish should go to Ohtani, then it becomes the same scenario as the Red Sox, whereby the signing team channels money to a source that is not bound by IFA bonus restrictions to avoid abiding by the rules. They’re both obvious instances of fraud.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago

Otani’s “real” money in the first few years is probably going to come with marketing. Teams in major markets are going to have a leg up. Maybe the Mariners too, since they’ve got some good history with Ichiro.

This is why teams like the Yankees, Mets, Red Sox, Dodgers, Angels, and Giants are going to have a leg up. Others like the Mariners (because of their history with Ichiro) or the Cubs (because of the size of the fanbase), or the Nationals (because they’re a really good team) might work too. Maybe the Braves? But I will be blown away if there is anything the D-Backs or Brewers or Indians can do to lure him in. His money is going to come from Nike or Under Armor or New Balance.

I know baseball players don’t usually make a lot in endorsement deals, but I think that it’s going to be a lot easier to make the case that he’ll have marketing visibility than a weird contract that will probably be voided by MLB.

[I also think everyone will give him a chance to hit. Teams that don’t will also have no chance to lure him.]

Pirates HurdlesMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Yeah, this has been my thought, he will make millions right away in endorsements and will choose the based media market for compensation.

DDMember since 2020
8 years ago

He will only make millions if he’s in fact marketable. How many endorsements does he do in Japan? Can he speak English?

Hatzis
8 years ago
Reply to  DD

He surely had some rudimentary foundation from schooling, and reportedly he has been working on his English and it’s been steadily improving.

Even remotely average English skills and a sizable Japanese/Asian population like in a California city should make him pretty marketable.

Daniel
8 years ago
Reply to  DD

Don’t count on him knowing or learning English. The Japanese are taught to read/write English, but generally do not speak it. It’s a very rare NPB player who ever picks up English in the States.

Joey Butts
8 years ago
Reply to  Daniel

I wonder about that. Some members of the YES broadcast say Hideki Matsui would smile at funny things reporters would say, even before they were translated. He always kept a translator, but his ability to speak English was better than you would think.

Shirtless George Brett
8 years ago
Reply to  Joey Butts

I’m also pretty sure it is/was a bit of an open secret that Ichiro speaks English very well too. He continued to use a translator though because he did not want to have any confusion about things.

frangipard
8 years ago
Reply to  Daniel

Nearly everyone in Japan speaks some English. They may not know enough to hold a conversation about abstract concepts,or to hold interviews with the media without a translator, but they can almost always do basic conversation. (Although they may not *want* to, and use language skills as an excuse)

Shooting a commercial? That’s a lot easier.

johansantana17Member since 2026
8 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Let’s not act like the Dodgers and Yankees are clear favorites by this measure. They are the most popular teams in the two biggest TV markets/cities by population in the country, both have huge Asian subcultures and both currently have big name Japanese players and have a long history of attracting and marketing successful Japanese players.

AMC522
8 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I wonder if a team could agree to let Ohtani use its intellectual property in Ohtani’s personal sponsorship/endorsement deals. Commissioner’s office may have control over such usage, but that would potentially be of value to Ohtani.

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I agree, and it is very frustrating. One of the big money, big matket teams is going to get a potential superstar for free. As a fan of a flyover country team, its frustrating enough to know that my team will never be competitive for a marquee free agent. But at least the teams that are pay an opportunity cost. MLB has really failed here, in my opinion.

stevenanusiak
8 years ago

what teams will be able to sign him ? (which ones that did not use all of their international money)

Pirates HurdlesMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  stevenanusiak

Pirates have almost all theirs lol, come on Bob shock the world 😉

Los
8 years ago

The Pirates will undoubtedly make the max offer. Doubt he will want to come to Pittsburgh but maybe they can sell him on the beauty of PNC Park and the city of champions.

Bobby Ayala
8 years ago
Reply to  Los

Just take him for a ride on that giant escalator thing that goes up the side of that hill. Or show him the Centralia fire. You’ll win him over for sure.

Schide
8 years ago
Reply to  Bobby Ayala

Centralia, PA is much closer to Philadelphia than it is to Pittsburgh. Nice obscure reference though.

davels
8 years ago
Reply to  Bobby Ayala

Centralia is actually much closer to Philly (and DC and Baltimore and NYC) than it is to Pittsburgh.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  stevenanusiak

I’m a little confused about the timing of this for Otani. If he’s posted this winter, I think that means it is the signings from this past July 2nd period. Most teams are maxed out this year, so bonuses are going to be limited.

If he’s part of next year’s class, then very few teams are in the penalty box, and most of the ones who are (Astros, A’s, Braves, Cardinals, Reds, Nationals, Padres, and White Sox) weren’t major suitors anyway. I don’t know for sure, but he could theoretically reach an agreement for next year’s signing period and come over on July 2nd.

Either way, what we might see (depending on how easy it is to trade bonus slots, I am confused about this point) is teams like the Reds and Padres that are in the penalty box and can’t spend it anyway might trade away a ton of bonus slots for prospects to a team like the Yankees who might not be in the penalty box but is capped out this year.

chuckbMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  stevenanusiak

The max offer, though, is so small — around $10 million — that it probably won’t matter much. It’s probably going to come down to who can put together the best promise of future earnings even if that 1st year signing bonus is relatively small.

LHPSU
8 years ago

Mike Trout and Buster Posey both signed 9-figure contracts with two years of play time (Posey had more service, but missed a full year of play). Starling Marte signed his extension with one year of play, though at a much lower amount.

There is actually precedent for 8-figures before a player’s first major league game, and that’s Jon Singleton.

I think a Posey or Trout contract is what to aim for, assuming Otani does in fact play like a star.

tribefaninnc
8 years ago

Wonder if a team will actually try to make him a 2-way player. I would love to see that.

DookieHowserMD
8 years ago
Reply to  tribefaninnc

From everything that has been said, that is going to be almost a pre-requisite for making Otani’s shortlist of teams to sign with.

chuckbMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  DookieHowserMD

I wonder if that means he’d prefer an NL team where he would bat every 5 days or an AL team where he could DH on days he’s not pitching.

Jonathan
8 years ago
Reply to  chuckb

I think he’d prefer an NL team. An AL team can’t really guarantee him certain # of ABs whereas a NL team can cause pitchers hit. Let’s say Otani is a .250 hitter with so-so power. In the NL, that’s great and the NL team can reasonably just trot him out every 5th day and also use him as a reasonable pinch hitter. An AL team likely has better DH options that it SHOULD be using. Letting Otani hit in that AL instance would be basically a “okay, to keep you happy/we promised you under the table that we’d let you hit regardless” and I don’t think that’s going to work.

DookieHowserMD
8 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I bet the NL clubs make your argument (and maybe add in the sweetener of being a PH a couple times a week), and the AL teams make the argument that he can get more ABs even if he only plays 1/5 games as a DH, while also promising him the opportunity to play more. Otani is already betting on himself by coming over early, so if he can hit, playing in the AL likely gives him more opportunity for ABs, since I am guessing no team, regardless of league, wants to risk him getting hurt in the field.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  chuckb

I still think there’s a chance he winds up at first base between starts. Not because he’s played there, but because it’s the only position on the diamond that won’t tax his precious arm.

DookieHowserMD
8 years ago

Lots of talk about Otani bringing in extra cash via marketing, etc, but whatever team lands him stands to do very well in Japan as well. I wonder if that fact (that having an international player of his caliber opens up new markets and revenue streams) would allow teams to make an argument to MLB for a large extension later on.

The only precedent relatively similar was when the Red Sox were trying to trade for A-Rod in 03-04, there was talk of clauses relating to NESN ratings and jersey sales of something along those lines, I believe that allowed the A-Rod to negotiate “down” his contract.

Dominikk85Member since 2020
8 years ago

Financially that would be so bad for otani, not because of the meager Bonus but because of the 6 years of control. he basically spends most of his prime being underpaid if he signs now and at 30 the chances for a huge contract are much worse than at 25.

and even if he gets hurt next year Japan is still the better Option because he now earns much more in Japan than he would earn his first 3 years in mlb. actually he now makes about as much in Japan per year as he would in his first 3 years combined in MLB (about 1.6 M if my currency calculator is correct). that means it takes until year 4 before he makes a semi decent salary in mlb and until year 5 until he has made more in mlb than he would have made had he stayed in Japan.

finanically it only makes sense to stay two more years (for much more Money than the Minimum salary in mlb) in Japan and then sign a 250M contract.

I would love to see him in Japan but I would actually hate the greedy owners having him as a slave for nothing for 3 years rewarding their new Arrangement (BTW I’m not blaming them for thinking economically – I blame the weak Union and their selling of Young and international Players).

but if he is really not caring about the Money I would guess a Team has to offer him a shot to at least semi full time hit (like 400+ PAs) for at least a year and an Option to continue if the Performance is there. you can’t promise him that he can hit for 6 years but you can give him a full year to prove himself saying like you can hit this year and if your OPS is at least 800 you are guaranteed to hit next year too.

AMC522
8 years ago

I think teams will be leery about engaging in the type of negotiations described in this article given the explicit anti-circumvention language in the CBA. Instead of finding a way to get Otani more money, could a team instead find a way to get him his prime FA years? Under the CBA, players become FAs under certain specified situations. One such situation is if a team does not exercise its right to renew the contract under the uniform agreement and reserve system. I believe Cespedes included a covenant in his first agreement with the A’s that the team would not renew the contract after 4 yrs, making him an FA (otherwise, team would have been able to renew the contract for 2 more years, subject to arbitration). Could Otani and a team agree to a similar covenant where he signs a deal subject to the international spending restrictions (thus, not circumventing the CBA), but the team agrees not to renew the contract after the first or perhaps second year. $25-$30mm all in (with posting fee) for Otani’s age 24-25 seasons is likely still a bargain.

LHPSU
8 years ago
Reply to  AMC522

Already addressed in this article.

DookieHowserMD
8 years ago
Reply to  AMC522

I have asked about this possibility of including a clause similar to Cespedes’ before and was told the new CBA does no allow it. Now a team could still non-tender Otani, but then we’d be right back into the circumvention talk again.

kdm628496
8 years ago

“and Lindor reportedly walked away from seven figures.”

don’t you mean nine figures?

TKDCMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  kdm628496

Yes, but also seven figures. Lots and lots of seven figures.

kdm628496
8 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

hundreds of seven figures

CharlieC
8 years ago

I hate the comparison to Babe Ruth. When we hear “Babe Ruth” we think one of the greatest hitters of all time. The fact that he also pitched at one point in his career is secondary. Josh Gibson was called “The Black Babe Ruth” and he didn’t pitch.

Jonathan
8 years ago
Reply to  CharlieC

Just hard to find examples of a player that could (potentially) play both ways in an above average capacity. Default isn’t the ideal example, but it’s better than nothing

dl80Member since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  CharlieC

Bob Lemon is a better example. A 3-4 win pitcher for 10 years who also averaged about 1 win per year with the bat and an 80 wRC+.

Don Newcombe is another good post-WWII example. Lots of examples from earlier if you are willing to count them.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  CharlieC

I’ve got it. He’s the next Christy Mathewson.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1008235&position=P

Maggie25
8 years ago

“there’s little reason to believe that he’ll choose his next destination based on whether a team can offer him $10 million or $300,000”

I can think of about 9.7 million reasons to choose based on that.

Maggie25
8 years ago
Reply to  Maggie25

(this is just a joke though, I understand what Dave is saying)

screehanMember since 2016
8 years ago

Dave, what about the role of an insurance policy here? If I’m Otani, I’d buy something like the policy Max Scherzer had before he turned down Detroit’s extension his year before free agency.

Doug LampertMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  screehan

If he wanted to min-max his income an insurance policy + waiting would clearly beat posting now. I suspect he really wants to play MLB ball.

screehanMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug Lampert

Totally agree, but the insurance policy is probably advisable if he agrees the sort of contract Dave imagines. Hard to see the extension passing MLB’s smell test if he gets Tommy John surgery before signing it.

BillClinton
8 years ago

It’d just blow my mind if the Pirates told this kid: “we want to make you our franchise player and pay you like we’ve never paid a player before”.

radivel
8 years ago
Reply to  BillClinton

so like, about 15 mil per year? lol

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago

I think the answer to this is “no” but I’m going to ask it anyway: Is there any way for him to sign a deal with the option to opt into the arbitration system after that? Or is there CBA language that prohibits that?

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave Cameron

Thanks. That’s what I thought.

soddingjunkmailMember since 2016
8 years ago

Can someone explain the posting system to me?

I thought that interested teams submitted a sealed bid to his current team, and high bid gets exclusive negotiating rights. Is this right?

sabrtooth
8 years ago

The system was changed a few years ago. Now there’s a max posting fee of $20m, and if there’s a tie, all the teams that submitted the high posting are allowed to negotiate with the player.

Mike Green
8 years ago

A Broadway show apparently now costs $50 million to put on. “Yes yes Shohei” has a bit of a ring to it.

Baller McCheeseMember since 2016
8 years ago

While this is all very interesting, it’s hard to be excited about the different ways a player can be shortchanged what they’re worth on the open market. I hope Otani & his signing team finds some loophole and he gets paid what he’d be paid if it weren’t for the restrictions MLB/MLBPA puts on players born in other countries. Baseball has loads of money; pay the players.

jayman4Member since 2018
8 years ago

Very sabermetrics friendly post. International signings aside, do you have a mechanism for MLB paying all of its loads of a money that does not structurally disadvantage smaller market teams? I do, but involves massive revenue sharing across teams, which large market fans (which you presumably are) don’t like.

dl80Member since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  jayman4

A halfway measure would be to dramatically increase the minimum salary and extend arbitration and/or make free agency sooner. If the minimum were $1 million, arbitration kicked in after 2 years for everyone, and there were still only 3 free agent years (giving teams a maximum of 5 years of control), that would help.

Baller McCheeseMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  jayman4

You quite figuratively made my head explode. Never underestimate the comments section.

jayman4Member since 2018
8 years ago

Glad it was not literal, but then you could not type that. Spending and small market disadvantages aren’t a popular topic, although to their credit FG has touched on it periodically. My answer, FWIW, is not an arbitrary cap that suppresses money spent on player salaries. But MLB needs to come up with a solution, because watching years and bleed into decades of mostly irrelevant baseball (in terms of getting to the championship) gets very old.

Jonathan
8 years ago

So if I’m not mistaken, basically Otani needs to play great his first year and any moderate 9-figure extension probably can pass MLB scrutiny.

GoNYGoNYGoGo
8 years ago

Would a contract with an option be acceptable, or would that be deemed too short and a violation of the CBA?

Jonathan
8 years ago
Reply to  GoNYGoNYGoGo

If Otani comes over for 2018, it’s a standard form contract he’s signing. He won’t be getting any options or any special clauses inserted.

nuthought
8 years ago

You would have to think it will be NY and LA with a predetermined endorsement contract.

johansantana17Member since 2026
8 years ago
Reply to  nuthought

I’m surprised how nobody else mentioned that the Yankees and Dodgers are the clear favorites here.

EltnegMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  johansantana17

Yeah, this is one of the great ironies of caps on compensation designed to level the playing field. Everybody only being allowed to offer a set amount means that off-the-field stuff is gonna become the deciding factor, which of course favors the traditional big markets. It’s so funny to see small-market owners cry foul at all this when they’re the ones most hurt by the new international signing rules.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  Eltneg

Well, caps on compensation do level the playing field…once teams like the Yankees and Red Sox figure out they can do what the Pirates and Rays did but on a scale 10 times larger. Once traditional big market teams figure it out, they still have the location advantage, plus having double the budget.

Monsignor Martinez
8 years ago

As much as I really want to see Otani play here, I’m happy for Japan that they are getting prime years of one of their own best.

TKDCMember since 2016
8 years ago

So the most craven, unethical, and smartest franchise will probably sign him. I guess Otani’s versatility is really going to be tested when he is catching passes from Tom Brady.

TKDCMember since 2016
8 years ago

I think there are three reasons that none of these shenanigans will come to pass or will matter:

First, in order for him to sign some extension early in his career, he has to play very well. If he is bad or even just okay, any big deal will obviously be nixed by MLB. I don’t see how you can really give him that much more than what he could get if he just signs and then later tries to work out an extension. MLB teams generally will work out deals with great, young players. If he’s really good, he could get one of these without a side deal.

Second, I think it should not be forgotten how culture might play a role in this. Otani is from a culture that is a lot different than the U.S.A. (I know nothing about him personally). I think this makes a side-deal less likely. Perhaps you think that there is nothing wrong with a side deal because of the rules in place (though I don’t see how it is not equally unfair that Aaron Judge and Cody Bellinger will make the minimum next year), but I think being from Japan makes him less likely to engage in such a deal.

Third, related to second (and first), no matter what way you slice it, this is a drastically terrible financial decision for Otani. You can dream about side deals that might mitigate the negative consequences, but in reality he will be signed for less than $10 million and then essentially have the same ability to make money going forward as every other rookie in baseball, with at most a slight advantage based on an unwritten understanding that will not be able to be effectuated unless the circumstances exist that would make a similar deal possible without the deal in place. Since Otani is willing to do this (assuming he actually does), it makes a lot more sense that he truly just wants to come over here, knows he’s losing out on a lot of money, and is willing to take what comes.

LHPSU
8 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

I don’t think him being Japanese makes him any less likely to do a side deal. Just spin it from an angle that appeals to him.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  LHPSU

It is absolutely true that Japanese business culture is very different than the American business culture. This was an issue as companies like Sony started setting up shop in the US. It wouldn’t be crazy to think that a “wink-wink” deal that might not work could be viewed differently by a Japanese individual than an a US one.

Of course, I would also expect Ohtani’s agent to be pretty well-versed in Japanese-American differences, so I doubt this would be a major sticking point.

LHPSU
8 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I’m just going to give you a couple of examples on how you could spin it to appeal to a Japanese:
“This is going to make things easier on us.”
“This is a gentleman’s promise.”

Hatzis
8 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Otani seems like an honest kid, but spinning this into some “Japanese culture” argument seems silly. We’re talking about a country that has one of the most brutal and far-reaching organized crime systems in the world in the Yakuza. That just seems like a weird cultural angle to take here.

If the team presents an argument for an extension down the road (based on merit after a year of play) like Simmons or one of the others in this article, I don’t think that will offend any sensibilities of his. That’s within precedent and I’m sure he’d take the money.

Besides, that’s the job of FOs: making contract pitches to players based on their individual needs/wants/backgrounds.

TKDCMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Hatzis

Japan is a very different culture. I’ve studied and worked there. Pretending that doesn’t matter is silly, and pretending that the existence of Yakuza (which I literally never saw) is a rejoinder to this is the only thing brought up here that is patently silly. Just look at the behavior on and off the field of many of the Japanese players that have come to the U.S. to play. There are numerous examples of guys acting in ways that don’t comport with our mores. It’s not a silly argument to say that they have a different culture that makes it less likely that they’d do something like this. The very fact that Otani will be in the situation is because he is acting in a way that seems unfathomable in our culture.

All that is to say that a team might want to be careful in how it pitches Otani, because they may have the wrong idea of his needs/wants/background.

Hatzis
8 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Saying “I didn’t see them” seems like a bizarre approach to take for someone who supposedly lived there and who should therefore know better.

I mean, you didn’t see it because they’ve worked their way into the fabric of “legitimate” businesses like financial securities and real estate. It’s not like they’re out on the streets breaking knee-caps in broad daylight anymore, but they’re absolutely there. They’ve moved from protection rackets in neighborhoods to rackets in shareholding meetings. Japan is great, and Japan *is* different from the West, but how you spin those cultural differences can be a dangerous road to travel down.

Ultimately that’s not the point though. Any team that pitches a contract to Otani, along with their city and team, is going to do the due diligence into understanding what he wants and how he wants to be treated. Any team who doesn’t do that due diligence probably doesn’t have a very good front office anyways, and was never really a threat to sign him.

But with a unique player like this on the line, I’m pretty sure the teams interested in him *are* going to do their research and make all of this cultural handwringing a non-factor.

TKDCMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Hatzis

Your argument is akin to saying that the U.S. is not a capitalistic country because of all the communists here.

According to Wikipedia, there are about 58,000 Yakuza in Japan. That is 0.043 percent of the population. I doubt Otani is Yakuza. “What about Yakuza?” is a stupid, stupid thing to say in response to my point.

Hatzis
8 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Pointing out numbers is a really shoddy line of argumentation when we’re dealing with an organization that brings in billions of dollars and has controlling interests in many of the highest corporations within Japan. Corporation by the way, just for the fun point, who own those Japanese baseball teams.

Again, that wasn’t really the point. Your point was a lionization of Japanese cultural that is based on a romanticized view of the country. If you can make a substantiated argument for why Otani wouldn’t take a deal with precedent like the one laid out in this article, I’ll be fascinated to hear it.

radivel
8 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Japanese culture even taught idiot Burt Reynolds how to be a good man while playing baseball. If they can do that, they can do ANYTHING.

YKnotDisco
8 years ago
Reply to  radivel

Tom Selleck was Mr. Baseball, not Burt Reynolds.

There actually is a Burt Reynolds who plays baseball, though – he happens to be Robinson Cano’s cousin.

Careless
8 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

“an organization that brings in billions of dollars and has controlling interests in many of the highest corporations within Japan”

LOL

Go on, do the math of how much money they’d be raking in per person.

The Yakuza are not the damned richest people in Japan

RoyalsFan#14321Member since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Speaking to the issue of culture, I’m reminded of the odd situation of Brandon Jennings of the NBA. After high school, rather than play a year at college (for low wages) he opted to play in Europe. I recall at the time it wasn’t considered a “legitimate” option because if you’re young and American, you play for the Arizona Wildcats, not Lottomattica. Oddly enough, it hasn’t turned into a legitimate option, as I’m not sure a single other top basketball recruit has followed that path.

The point is, even here, money isn’t everything.

YKnotDisco
8 years ago

Emmanuel Mudiay of the Denver Nuggets comes to mind. He committed to SMU in 2013 but instead “chose” to forgo college and join the Guangdong Southern Tigers in China. After he completed the season there, he was one year removed from his graduating class and was now eligible for the NBA draft. He ended up being selected seventh overall.

Billsaints
8 years ago

Maybe he actually really doesn’t care at all about the money. He is a millionaire already. Lives at his training facility. Sounds like his #1 requirement is can I bat? #2 Maybe, will you win? Money, could truly be a very distant #3. It is possible to care more about the sport you love than million #12,13….150.

ashlandateam
8 years ago
Reply to  Billsaints

This is an underrated comment. If the man is, at 23, a national icon who’s financially set for life, then it’s possible that he really does NOT care one way or the other what he’s paid. And his insistence on getting to be posted at this point seems to point in that direction.

Hatzis
8 years ago
Reply to  Billsaints

Not only does he live at his team dorms, he also reportedly lives on a $1,000 stipend from his earnings that his parents send to him every month.

phillipmike02
8 years ago

Otani or Ohtani?

dl80Member since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  phillipmike02

Ohhhh-tani! (That’s how John Sterling will say it when he hits a home run for them)

Hatzis
8 years ago
Reply to  phillipmike02

It’s spelled “Ohtani” on his jersey and baseball cards in Japan. The “Otani” spelling seems more common here, which I assume has something to do with Anglicization procceses of Japanese words?

Nasty Nate
8 years ago

One thing about a handshake agreement on a big pre-arb extension after one year: what if he is not good or healthy enough during that first year? If the team lives up to their end of the agreement, the jig will be up. And Ohtani needs that guarantee, that would be the whole point of him agreeing to the handshake deal. Otherwise, the team is offering nothing; teams give pre-arb extensions to good players as often as they can already if they play well.

Jonathan
8 years ago
Reply to  Nasty Nate

I doubt any promise to examine a pre-arb extension after one year will include a pre-set figure. Basically I think of this gambit as equivalent to a player signing a one year tender in order to hit free agency and cash in. Otani bets on himself for 1 year that he can produce very well and then cashes in with an extension that functionally just resets his earning basement to a comfy nine-figures. In turn this hypothetical extension will trade some of his FA years for the up front pre-arb/arb guarantee.

Nasty Nate
8 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

But then what does Ohtani get out of a pre-arranged agreement like that? Teams already want to sign such extensions.

TKDCMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Nasty Nate

Yeah, he gets nothing. The only way he gets something that is remarkably better than what he could just get by signing and then coming over here and trying to work out an extension is if a team gives him way more than they otherwise would, and MLB will be looking for that. And there aren’t any Dave Stewarts around anymore that can feign ignorance.

Jonathan
8 years ago
Reply to  Nasty Nate

Pretty much safe to safe it’s not a dispute that Otani is giving up guaranteed earning potential by coming over 2 years earlier. He can however reduce the amount of money he’s losing out on if he can produce 1 good year to start and then just sign the immediate extension.

I’m sure teams would be happy to sign an extension up front to begin with, but for the purposes of the MLB’s rules, he can’t do a preemptive deal. If the question is why bother putting up with that song-and-dance, that’s a different topic

Timbooya
8 years ago

As already mentioned, most of his pay for his first few years will be from endorsements. What is stopping a team like, say, the Mariners from coercing Nike to sign him to a massive 7-year, $200 million endorsement for being an international superstar, while vastly lowering the Nike-Mariner deal (or whatever team and whatever athletic company)? Essentially charge a company less to have them pay a player more.

MLB couldn’t ban the team from this because the money was never the team’s… Nike never paid them the large amount, so there is no guarantee they were going to pay them it anyways.

Edit: I do not know any of the legal or MLB rules and restrictions on this stuff, I just thought it would be interesting. MLBPA really screwed the pooch on this rule.

TKDCMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Timbooya

More directly, why not have Nintendo put him on the cover of a video game?

But there is nothing keeping MLB from investigating any payments Otani receives from anyone to determine if they were part of a deal to circumvent the rules. It’s not as if MLB can’t investigate because the money doesn’t come directly from the team.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Nintendo no longer owns most of the Mariners.

However, if Otani’s willing to rep Trilogy Equity, they could do a lot worse.

Pig.Pen
8 years ago

This is why a lot of unions suck. They take care of the people who have been there for a while, but doing so often comes at the expense of those just entering the system. In that way, it’s almost like a Ponzi scheme. Baseball should go the truly capitalist route, do away with the draft, just make everyone a free agent and let them sign the best deal they can negotiate.

piddy
8 years ago
Reply to  Pig.Pen

Ponzi schemes rely on bringing more and more people in (since that’s where the money comes from), and that’s why they’re unsustainable. This is pretty much the opposite in that there’s a continuously replenishing pot of money players have access to, and outsiders simply have restricted access. Also it’s not really the union pushing for this – the owners want ways to reduce the amount of money they have to spend on players while remaining competitive.

Jeremy FoxMember since 2017
8 years ago

If MLB won’t approve any pre-arb extension for Otani that violates “precedent”, would it be worth it to some team to try to establish a new precedent? Like, would it be worth it to give a big pre-arb extension to your first round draft pick before he even plays a professional inning (one that, in a vacuum, would be a bad idea for the team), then sign Otani to a big pre-arb extension and cite the precedent you just established?

Ok, I’m kidding, I’m sure nobody would actually do this. But it just seems so ridiculous for MLB to insist that teams treat Otani like they treat any other player when he is patently not like any other player.

TKDCMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy Fox

I do think teams could be pretty darn aggressive while keeping a good argument that they are not acting out of line. Super early deals are generally not made because teams want to see players succeed at the highest level. But nobody ever succeeds at the next-highest level for years before getting to the highest level (for simplicity, let’s just compare AAA to Japan). If you magically had a guy who was lapping the field in AAA for several years without being called up, and then he’s in the majors, you’re going to have a lot more confidence than you would in the normal players that crush the minor leagues. Those guys usually only spend at most one year crushing the upper minors before making the big leagues.

So as long as the contract is structured like other extensions (very small salaries year two and three, and then progressive, but larger salaries years four, five, and six) MLB would have a tough time saying the deal is out of line absent some evidence of an agreement.

Jonathan
8 years ago

I suspect Otani already has a general idea where he wants to sign. Even if it’s not a specific team, he has a short list. I would be surprised if any team could really give him a pitch that’s “unique” that he hasn’t already considered.

Mean Mr. Mustard
8 years ago

Something I’m curious about…if he plays like a star in Year One, it’s established in the article that he can get an extension to buy out arb years, based on precedent. Let’s assume that he does play like a star and sign an extension that buys out those years at a rate which won’t make MLB bring the hammer down. If in Year Two he mega-stars, can said extension be ripped up in favor of the however-many millions he’d make as a 25-year-old postee?

Nasty Nate
8 years ago

But why would the team agree to rip it up? It would be very suspicious.

Mean Mr. Mustard
8 years ago
Reply to  Nasty Nate

Negotiated ahead of the initial signing, as a sort of handshake agreement on getting him paid what he could make if he waited.
I do agree, it would be suspicious, but perhaps not suspicious enough if a team could argue that they wanted to do everything possible to keep him in their laundry until retirement.

Sean HuffMember since 2020
8 years ago

I wrote an article over the winter about Otani’s possible value. If anyone wants to read it, here’s the link https://www.fangraphs.com/community/imagining-shohei-otani-as-a-true-free-agent/.

Adam C
8 years ago

Why do people continue to fawn over these Japanese players? As a group the NPB Japanese position players who have come over have been a complete bust. Only 9 position player have had at least 1,000 PA’s in the majors. Here are their CAREER WAR totals.

59.7 Ichiro
21.3 Hideki Matsui
10.7 Nori Aoiki
6.3 Tadahito Iguchi
5.3 Kazuo Matsui
5.3 Kenji Johjima
4.5 Akinori Iwamura
4.3 Kosuke Fukudome
2.3 So Taguchi

All that money spent for mediocre or worse production. Granted, Shohei Ohtani has youth on his side but I don’t think he’ll be an impact player as a position player. As a pitcher that’s another story.

Joey Butts
8 years ago
Reply to  Adam C

Aren’t all the Japanese players we’re fawning over pitchers? Who was the last Japanese hitter who actually generated much hype?

Adam C
8 years ago
Reply to  Joey Butts

Hideki Matsui received tremendous hype. Matsui was the greatest power hitter of his generation in the NBP. Matsui was coming off a 50 home run season in Japan inn 2002. I was in Japan in July 2002 and some him play. He was crushing balls left and right that season. From 1996-02 Matui averaged 40 home runs per season.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  Adam C

Matsui was a very good hitter in the US! But his defense was horrific. Terrible range. Mostly, we saw his decline years.

SirLancelittle
8 years ago
Reply to  Adam C

There are several major things you aren’t taking into account…
1) Age. You are under estimating the importance of youth. Ohtani should be expected to improve over the next few years while most of the players you listed were over 30. Players decline a lot quicker than many people expect (see Pujols, Albert).
2) Mediocre is very valuable. A 1 win player is worth $8M on the open market. If you could have gotten Kosuke Fukudome (the second worst player on your list) for $20M then you have gotten a steal ($34M value for $20M).
3) Risk. The fact he pitches and hits means even if one skill fails in the US he could still be very valuable
4) Star Level. Ohtani is a bigger star than most (maybe all) of the players you listed so expecting him to outperform most of them should be the baseline.

Adam C
8 years ago
Reply to  SirLancelittle

Hideli Matsui and Ichiro were FAR more accomplished when the arrived in the major leagues than Ohtani has been so far. Granted Ichiro (27) and Matsui (29) were much older when they arrived in the majors.

Here are Matsui’s numbers from age 22-28:

22: .314/.401/.622, 38 HR
23: .298/.419/.564, 37 HR
24: .292/.421/.563, 34 HR
25: .304/.416/.631, 42 HR
26: .316/.438/.654, 42 HR
27: .333/.463/.617, 36 HR
28: .334/.461/.692, 50 HR

That is ridiculous home run power and on-base skills in Japan. Yet, in Matsui’s first major league season he hit a disappointing 16 home runs in the middle of the PED era. He increased it to 31 home runs in his second season but never hit over 30 home runs again. And Matsui is one of the greatest power hitters in NPB history. Ohtani is not on Matsui’s level as a power hitter. Not even close. And people are expecting Ohtani to mash in the majors? I find that highly unlikely.

Jim Albright has done extensive research into Japanese to the majors equivalencies and his research shows that home run power drops ~50% coming from the NBP to the majors. I’ll be very surprised if Ohtani ever hits more than 15 home runs in a single season in the majors. Now his pitching I’m looking forward to what he can do in the majors.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  SirLancelittle

The age thing is really, really important. We have never seen the prime years of Japanese players in the US, with the exception of Ichiro, who came over at 28 and posted something like 23.5 fWAR (close to an average of 6 WAR) in his age 28-31 seasons.

I don’t think that there are many Ichiros hanging out in Japan, so it’s hard to tell when you’ve got one. But this guy is coming over for what is unquesitonably his prime years.

(Of course, everyone knows he’s coming over to pitch. The batting is more of a question mark, and it’s more of a bonus than the main dish. The real big name in Japan right now is Tetsuto Yamada. And unlike Ohtani, Yamada is already 25)

dcomegysMember since 2016
8 years ago

“Opt-in to arbitration and dramatically increase his earnings from 2021-2023, but forego the opportunity to become a free agent until after 2025.”
If he opts in to arbitration, he opts out of the contract so won’t he be free after 2023?

TKDCMember since 2016
8 years ago

I wonder if any team would consider just blatantly circumventing the rules and taking the chance that the punishment will be worth it? Tell Otani that you’ll sign him to a five year/$100 million extension after he makes his MLB debut, and see what MLB does about it. Based on the CBA, the clearest penalty would be a one-year ban from signing any international players and/or reduction of pool money by 50% for the years through 2021. They also say they could fine, suspend, or negate deals. But what could they really do and what would they really do?

If you get six years of an ace pitcher for $100 million, you’re talking probably $100 to $150 million in surplus value. Would MLB really hammer a team hard enough to make this a bad move?

Nasty Nate
8 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

They could refuse to approve the contract extension in addition to the possible punishments you mention.

alpha309
8 years ago

I really feel like a teams like the Cubs and the Dodgers have the advantage in the ability to play him like he wants to be played. Both teams have a TON of players who are flexible in where they could play, and both teams are excellent in rotating players in and out of the lineup to give everyone equal or close opportunity, to how they contribute to the team. Both of these teams will be able to pitch him on the ability, based on what positions their scouting says, to pencil him in as the starter for every Sunday game on the schedule, give him every Saturday and Monday off as his rest days just before and after his start, and then give him LF or 2B (or possibly in both) for Tuesday-Friday. Both of those teams have players who have demonstrated players with both the ability and willingness to play in different positions than their natural position. For him, he would get to play in the vast majority of his teams games, considering Monday is one of the days with regularly scheduled team off days, making the total games missed down to basically every Saturday and half of the Mondays, so about 30-45 or so games off, Basically a little more than your starting catcher’s workload for most teams. It would also allow the signing team to run out an irregular 6 man rotation, with each pitcher getting every Sunday as an extra off day, but the 6 other days would go in their normal sequence.

Chad Huffman
8 years ago

All he has to do is keep healthy.

OrangeJoos
8 years ago

Maybe he will shock the world and come play for my A’s, that would be a shocker

CapricaCity
8 years ago

My feeling is that since he stands to lost a lot of money doing this, someone will talk him out of it before it happens. Perhaps this was just a stunt to get his name out there. If he decides not to play in the MLB because of its structure, maybe MLB should consider if the structure makes any sense. If it’s not allowing the best players in, I don’t see how that serves the league or its fans.

Max Power
8 years ago

A little off-topic, but has there been any discussion of Sugano coming over to the US? In the WBC, he was hitting upper-90s with ride and had a couple really good offspeed pitches.

d_iMember since 2016
8 years ago

From today’s Keith Law Chat:
Adam: It has been speculated that Otani’s free agency will be a situation “where money almost literally isn’t a factor,” due to the new signing rules. But the difference between $300k and $10mil is still a lot of money, even for Otani, right?
Keith Law: Of course it is. Two thoughts on Otani: One, I saw absolutely nothing this week to indicate that he’s any more likely to be posted next month than he was a few days ago. There was one completely unsourced report out of Japan … and that’s it. He may very well come over, but this was a non-story. Two, a team can sign Otani to a short-term deal with a forced non-tender clause, which most NPB free agents had in their contracts, so they’d become MLB free agents after just three or four years here. Hell, if I were GM of a contender with the cap room, I’d offer Otani one year at the maximum allowed salary and agree to nontender him at the end of the year.

seems Cameron and Law are not on the same page about this. My understanding was same as Dave’s but less than certain…

Brett
8 years ago

Which teams cannot offer him more than $300K this winter?