Mets and Reds Exchange Horror Stories
Baseball is a game governed partially by design. When you see teams like the Astros or Cubs win the World Series, you can almost convince yourself that people are actually in charge. You can almost believe we have a handle on this. And to an extent, we do; baseball as a sport isn’t entirely random. The most talented players often become the best players. Clubs with enough of the best players often become the best teams. What’s so hard about that? Find and develop good players, and the rest should take care of itself.
But there’s a dirty little open secret. And this isn’t about how baseball games can turn on the flukiest of events. That’s true, also, but I’m referring to player development. What we’re all led to believe is that scouts are out there looking for guys who could be good. Then coaches and experience mold them, and then, eventually, guys become successful. A quality major-league player is a triumph for an entire organization. That performance level, however, can be fleeting. Becoming good in the majors isn’t the end of the story. A player is also supposed to stay good. And there’s surprisingly little people can do about that. Talent gets ripped away, often by injury. Injuries can be cruel and hard to predict, yet in a given year they can shape the landscape of an entire league. They can alter a team’s very direction.
Recently, the Mets designated Matt Harvey for assignment. Tuesday, the Mets traded Harvey to the Reds for Devin Mesoraco. Harvey’s development was a triumph for the Mets, just as Mesoraco’s development was a triumph for the Reds. They represented the best of what could go right for a talented young player in the proper hands. Now they’ve come to represent the nightmares that baseball people have when they fall asleep. Harvey and Mesoraco were two of the best. They weren’t allowed to sustain.
Harvey, of course, might have a more difficult personality. His stubbornness and tabloid character have done him no favors, and Harvey the person contributed to Harvey the player being dropped in the first place. But it’s not as if Harvey simply partied his way into irrelevance. That overlooks the very important fact that his body has fallen apart. Harvey was a No. 1 pitcher before undergoing Tommy John surgery. Then he was again a No. 1 pitcher after undergoing Tommy John surgery. Then came the diagnosis of thoracic outlet syndrome. Then came the stress injury in his shoulder. Harvey’s ability has deteriorated, because his body hasn’t allowed him to pitch. At least, not in the way that he’d like.
Compared to 2015, Harvey’s average fastball is down a little under four miles per hour. His peak fastball is down a little over four miles per hour. In 2015, Harvey threw 89% of his fastballs at least 95. So far this year, that rate is 1%. Harvey could adapt, sure. There are good pitchers in baseball who still throw slower than he does. But he’s having to learn on the fly, with a body he no longer trusts. Few are the pitchers who might handle this with grace.
Mesoraco might not have reached the same Harvey ceiling, but in 2014, he blossomed into one of the best all-around catchers on the planet. Mesoraco aimed for the air before everyone else was doing it, and he started bashing home runs before the league-wide homer spike ever emerged. Mesoraco broke out in what was a down year for the league’s hitters, running a 147 wRC+, and he earned a four-year contract extension. This is the final year of the four. Over the span, Mesoraco has played in a total of 113 games.
Surgery on one hip. Surgery on one shoulder. Surgery on the other hip. Shoulder strain. Fractured foot. Mesoraco was eventually supplanted by Tucker Barnhart, because the Reds needed a catcher who could actually play. Since 2015, Mesoraco has batted 316 times, running a 65 wRC+ with a WAR of -0.2. He’s looking a little bit better now, but no one could regain that lost mobility. Injuries zapped Mesoraco just as he was reaching his peak.
Harvey for Mesoraco makes sense. It makes sense in the way that many change-of-scenery trades make sense. In New York, Harvey came to be a source of frustration, every lousy game reminding the team of what he no longer is. In Cincinnati, Mesoraco hasn’t frustrated in exactly the same way, but he was still there as a shell of his prime. Harvey and Mesoraco no longer served a positive purpose. They might now, in new places.
The Reds knew they could no longer trust Mesoraco. But he is a major-league catcher, who’s been good before, and Mets catchers rank 29th in baseball in WAR. Kevin Plawecki is still hurt, and Travis d’Arnaud is out for the season. Tomas Nido wasn’t cutting it. Jose Lobaton wasn’t cutting it. Maybe Mesoraco will cut it. It’s far easier for the Mets to see the upside. Mesoraco hasn’t frustrated them.
The Mets, in turn, knew they could no longer trust Harvey. But he is a major-league pitcher, who’s been good before, and Reds pitchers rank 30th in baseball in WAR. Their starting rotation also happens to rank 30th in baseball in WAR. Many of the Reds’ options haven’t cut it. Maybe Harvey will cut it. It’s far easier for the Reds to see the upside. Harvey hasn’t frustrated them.
The Mets are hoping for a half-decent catcher to fill a void. They’re in contention, see, and in order to remain in contention, they can’t afford to run out a daily black hole. On the Reds’ side, Harvey is a warm body, which might be enough. There’s no thought of contention here, given that the Reds are a disaster, but they probably figure there’s a non-zero chance Harvey figures something out and makes himself marketable in July. Mesoraco was never going to return a prospect. Harvey might. He probably won’t, but he might. And to whatever extent it actually matters, off the field, Cincinnati is more or less the opposite of New York. The Reds might think that Harvey will be more focused. I don’t know. Neither side is getting much.
That’s the ultimate take-home here, in a swap of two first-round picks. A swap of two former All-Stars, a swap of one guy who once got Cy Young support for another guy who once got a down-ballot MVP vote. Both Devin Mesoraco and Matt Harvey are still looking ahead to their 30th birthdays. They reached the very peaks they were always supposed to. Unfortunately, then, the story kept going.
Jeff made Lookout Landing a thing, but he does not still write there about the Mariners. He does write here, sometimes about the Mariners, but usually not.
I can’t decide if it’s a win win or a lose lose…
Well said, but I’d go win-win. It was a lose-lose situation that brought the teams to this point; with the trade, they’ve salvaged a win-win situation from the remnants of the players’ careers.
It’s a nothing-to-lose-nothing-to-lose
I’d say Two Face’s flip of a coin.
The Reds should have at least gotten more salary relief. I’ll bet Meso is at least an average catcher if he gets regular AB’s. The Reds strategy should have been play him more to see if he could raise his value in a league where catchers are dropping like flies.
Can’t think of a worse place for a pitcher to revive their career than in Cincy. In 2016, they had -1.4 pitching WAR. In 2018 so far, they have -0.6 pitcher WAR. In the middle (2017), they had a good year with 3.6 pitching WAR. They just fired their manager largely because of lousy pitching development (which isn’t all on him, but still). Their ballpark is homer-prone. At least the Rockies have had success developing pitchers, even if their home park is a lousy place to rebuild confidence.
Probably none of this matters for Cincy because they’re going nowhere and they probably couldn’t do anything with Mesoraco anyway. But I still probably would have held him to see if I could move him in August for a PTBNL because I can’t imagine Harvey is going to succeed there (and if he does, he’s gone anyway). Someone must have needed a backup catcher later on, and if not, it’s not like they gained anything from this.
That assumes Mesoraco would be healthy in August. There is no such assurance.
And even in a scenario where they keep him and he’s out for the year a month from now, they would have gotten the same amount of value as they did in this trade: Nothing. They may even have been better off, since they could use his rotation spot to try someone who may actually stick with them.
Apparently, I’m not the only person thinking this is a disaster for Harvey, and that this is a bizarre move for the Reds to boot.
https://www.si.com/mlb/2018/05/08/matt-harvey-trade-reds-mets-worst-case-scenario
More from the “this is not gonna work out” files: https://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2018/5/9/17335874/matt-harvey-reds-trade
“So if you’re looking for a team to shephard along a wayward arm, a former all-star who needs help like few others, it would appear as if the Reds would be the absolute worst fit. More than that, they would be a historically awful fit. There are few teams in any era would would appear to be less equipped to fix a seafaring vessel that’s sprung several leaks. In this analogy, they’re at the airport with Elmer’s glue and a stapler, asking a vending machine for directions to the boat.”
Without this article, I would have just seen this as teams dumping broken parts on each other, but now it’s a compelling story.
Thanks for the great article.
I have been rooting for Harvey and thought sooner he gets out of Flushing, the better. Now I’ll root for both of them. You can say what you want about Harvey, but he’s not the first or the last of players who didn’t help themselves with the off the field stuff.
He did
1) get very unlucky with the timing of his recovery year and Mets’ WS run.
2) happen to be on a team with a dubious (to put it kindly) reputation for dealing with player injuries.
3) I suppose I don’t have to rehash Mets’ history with young phenom pitchers since – 1983?
I wouldn’t believe anything Mets say if I were Harvey at this point.
Best of luck, Matt.
the thing that always bothered me about your #1…. during the year, he complains that he didn’t want to pitch a 6 man rotation to limit his innings. Then September rolls around and Boras complains for him that he’s pitching too many innings. always pissed me off.
I can’t help but think this looks terrible on the Mets.
On paper, Harvey still had some value and it seems like they’re getting mostly nothing back in return. While his ERA looks terrible, his xFIP and SIERRA were both below 4, he still had serviceable velocity, and there’s anecdotal evidence that TOS is a 2-year recovery (Tyson Ross anyone?), suggesting maybe he was still on the upswing. Maybe its going to be a huge lift to re-invent his fastball to get some mov’t on that pitch and make it playable at 93, but it at least seems possible. I don’t Mesoraco suddenly figuring it out.
Meanwhile, Jason Vargas’s numbers are worse than Harvey’s by a ton, his FB tops out at 87, and he’s making $16M (!!) over the next two seasons. Combined, that contract and the end of Harvey’s era in Flushing look pretty terrible on management.
Harvey was DFA’d. It’s not like they had the option to wait it out for a better trade to emerge.
He was done in NY either way. The personal dynamics have been terrible for some time. He doesn’t trust the team and the team doesn’t trust him.
Harvey’s 2018 xFIP is 4.52 and Sierra is 4.63
Since 2016 (212 IP), Harvey’s xFIP is 4.72 (FIP 5.02) with 33% hard hit rate. His career prior to that (2012-2015) his xFIP was 3.02 (FIP 2.65) with a 26.8 hard hit rate.
Sorry, I should have clarified, I was referring to his 4 starts in terms of his xFIP and SIERRA. He clearly didn’t give the bullpen a shot.
I’m not saying he was good, but he certainly is capable of starting in the league today, and maybe for the team he just left considering their alternative is pitching worse than Harvey was in his 4 starts.
OK… In response to this “looking terrible on the Mets,” have you seen him pitch or just going by the numbers?
I can tell you, he’s toast. Major coup by getting a warm bodied functioning MLer for him. No one thought they would get anything but a lottery ticket from A ball. And they didn’t have to pick up any of Mesoraco’s $ to boot.
It’s a small coup. Trust me.
I did think the timing of the DFA was pretty weird, given that deGrom was just hurt, and Vargas was plain horrible.
The timing was that he was killing them and they asked him to go to AAA to work out his issues and he said no.
what is the upside for the reds? if harvey sucks they don’t lose that much but let’s imagine harvey does ok, what do the reds gain? they will still finish last in the central and next year harvey is a FA. so either harvey sucks or he is ok and helps them to “improve” their pick from 3 to 5 and then he goes in free agency.
also the reds don’t exactly have a sterling immediate history in pitcher development. they developed some good hitters the last years but pitching not so much. sure there are iglesias and castillo but those two also are more insane stuff rather than polished pitchers.
I would have liked a fringy contender who needs rotation depth and has the skills to maybe combat harvey’s diminished velo and command with different sequencing and pitch mix to maybe get average 5 starter value out of him (don’t even talking about being good again). now that could also fail and him getting released early and in cincy he probably just needs to keep his ERA under 7 to stay in the rotation all year but overall I don’t see much upside for either side here. great american bandbox won’t help his cause either.
He mentions it explicitly in the article, Mesoraco is also a FA after this year, but he’s not the kind of guy who could potentially be flipped for prospects at the deadline no matter how he performs between now and then. Harvey in all likelihood won’t be either, but say he does turn things around, not into his original form, I don’t think anyone believes in that, but into a serviceable #3 type starter. And say a contender loses one of their top 4 starters to TJS or something else keeping them out for the year and doesn’t want to roll into the playoffs with their #5 as the 4th member of their playoff rotation. Suddenly Harvey gets you SOMETHING in return.
Both teams got some potential upside for their given situation. Neither team lost anything of value to them given their current situation.
I strongly agree with this. I understand what the Mets are getting out of this–a potentially replacement-level catcher, maybe even better if his problems right now are rust-related.
But the Reds…what do they get out of it? They’re not going to fix him, and if they are he won’t be fixed by the trade deadline. He won’t help them win now, and if he does, it will barely matter. They have all these young guys who need more development time, and instead of giving them a shot they’re going to try this. I hate it. There are probably 20 teams that Harvey could have value for, and the Reds aren’t one of them.
I know it’s starting to be in distant memory now, and Aaron Altherr hasn’t actually built on that hot start last year either…but these sorts of moves–the signing Michael Saunders to take reps from Aaron Altherr moves–are just not the right move for a rebuilding team. Maybe Rookie Davis, Robert Stephenson, Amir Garrett, Cody Reed, Brandon Finnegan, and Jose Lopez are all busts, but wouldn’t it be better to find out? I’d even rather them try Justin Nicolino instead.
It’s the inverse of a challenge trade. The perceived probable potential is quite low for both, but what no one knows for certain is whether physical problems have permanently diminished them both. The range of outcomes is kind of interesting–anywhere from waste to useful trading chip. It’s possible we could be talking about this deal years from now.
Well that was a depressing read.
I was wondering when baseball would see another pitcher like Lincecum, and I figured it would take more time than it has.
Granted, Harvey’s peak never got close to Lincecum’s, but the sudden dominance and shocking cliff-drop are very similar. Harvey’s drop has been a bit more immediate, as Lincecum sort of hung on for a while as a filler (which I guess is why parallels haven’t been drawn), but it’s more similar than anyone else I can remember.
Josh Johnson? Dontrelle Willis? Mark Prior? Kerry Wood? Barry Zito? Not all perfect parallels, but I feel like pitcher’s peaking extremely high early and falling off a cliff suddenly is a far too common theme in the last couple of decades. Even a guy like Zambrano looked to be on a HOF pace through 27 or 28 and was out of baseball at 31.
IMO, the ultimate fall-off-a-cliff pitchers were Lincecum, Mark Prior, and Ben Sheets. Dontrelle Willis and Teddy Higuera are sort of in the conversation too.
For more recent pitchers, Mark Prior probably is the best comp, and is one of the best of all time in terms of cliff-dropping. Slightly different scenario, though, as his fall was completely injury driven, which can’t be said for Lincecum. I’d also argue again that his peak wasn’t quite as bright, but that may be a function of dealing with injury after only one dominant season.
I wouldn’t classify Dontrelle Willis as falling off a cliff – at least not a high one. I was surprised to find out he was really just a “one hit wonder”:
https://pudding.cool/2018/04/one-hit-wonders/
Brandon Webb is up there on my list.
And while we’re talking about Brandon Webb, might as well mention Chien-Ming Wang.
All prior to Lincecum.
I’m going to quote from Timothy Finnegan’s May 7th article at Amazin’ Avenue (for the full article go to https://www.amazinavenue.com/2018/5/7/17322706/matt-harvey-electrifying-mets-stuff-pitcher-generation-new-york):
“Harvey’s 2013 season is among the greatest and most dominant single seasons in Mets history for a starting pitcher. By baserunner prevention, it was the best single season for a qualified starting pitcher in Mets history with a 0.93 WHIP, just edging out Seaver’s career-best 0.95 WHIP from 1971. Harvey’s adjusted ERA- of 64 in 2013 was 7th best in Mets history, slightly behind Seaver’s 1969 season. 2013 Harvey’s 2.00 Fielding Independent Pitching—which focuses on strikeouts, walks and home runs—ranks as the 10th greatest single season among any club in the live ball era dating back to 1920. Only Dwight Gooden’s 1984 season and Tom Seaver’s 1971 season rank higher in Mets history, and the list is engulfed with Hall of Famers. Pedro Martinez, Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, Clayton Kershaw, Hal Newhouser, Seaver, Gooden and Harvey make up the list. Peak Harvey unquestionable showcased Hall of Fame ability, and it was just a matter of maintaining it long term, which unfortunately he was not able to do—with parallels to Doc Gooden.”
My point being that ‘peak Harvey’ was probably better than ‘peak Lincecum’, albeit Lincecum’s peak lasted longer.
Over Harvey’s first three seasons he averaged an ERA+ of 146, FIP of 2.65 and WHIP of 1.00 with 0.6 homers per 9 innings and 4.78 strikeouts per walk.
Over Lincecum’s second through fifth seasons he averaged an ERA+ of 143, FIP of 2.81 and WHIP of 1.17 with 0.6 homers per 9 innings and 3.11 strikeouts per walk.
I’m rooting for Mesoraco. He and Matt Adams showed that central Pennsylvania can produce some real talent.
Harvey also looks a bit out of shape to my eyes. Maybe better conditioning will help. More gym time, less partying.
https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/anthony_scaramucci_841974
Just looking for a quote about fate. Found a decent one, but what I really wanted to say is that Fate can be a real bitch.