The Cardinals’ Crowded Starting Rotation

Like the Atlanta Braves, the St. Louis Cardinals often have good problems. The Cardinals are likely to have a top 10 rotation in 2014, but they still have to figure out who is going to slot into the rotation, and who will be the odd men out. Men is the key word here, because the Cardinals don’t have just six options, or even seven, but rather eight legitimate candidates for the starting rotation. Let’s walk through it, shall we?

First, the sure things. Adam Wainwright tops this list. Since he came back for the 2012 season, only four pitchers have accumulated more WAR than has Wainwright — Justin Verlander, Felix Hernandez, Clayton Kershaw and Max Scherzer. There isn’t a rational argument for keeping Wainwright out of the rotation.

Based on the fact that he started Game 2 in both the National League Championship Series and the World Series, Michael Wacha would also seem to be a lock. Certainly, the rookie was impressive in both the regular and postseason. Of the 274 pitchers who tossed at least 60 innings last year, Wacha’s 80 FIP- ranked 52nd. He actually wasn’t as good as a starting pitcher as he was a reliever, but the outlook for him is still bullish in 2014. Both Steamer and ZiPS peg him to be in the discussion for second-best starter on the squad:

Pitcher Steamer IP Steamer ERA Steamer FIP Steamer WAR ZiPS IP ZiPS ERA ZiPS FIP ZiPS WAR
Adam Wainwright 193 3.24 2.94 3.9 208.3 3.2 2.93 4.0
Michael Wacha 155 3.75 3.51 2.1 155.3 3.53 3.65 2.3
Lance Lynn 160 3.7 3.51 2.1 173.7 3.52 3.41 2.6
Jaime Garcia 166 3.66 3.28 2.3 116.3 3.79 3.42 1.4
Shelby Miller 112 3.66 3.67 1.3 174.7 3.3 3.57 3.2
Joe Kelly 81 4.17 3.9 0.4 146.7 3.87 3.93 1.5
Carlos Martinez 83 3.65 3.69 0.3 108.3 3.74 3.79 1.3
Trevor Rosenthal 65 2.59 2.86 1.1 79.7 2.37 2.51 1.6

The others in that mix would appear to be Lance Lynn and Shelby Miller. Miller seemed to be underappreciated by his team during the postseason, and the fact that he never received an explanation for why he wasn’t being used was clearly frustrating to him, not to mention a good portion of the baseball Twitterati. As Mike Podhorzer pointed out in THT ’14, Miller did throw his changeup more in the second half, and introduced a cutter as well, and as a result saw his strikeout and walk percentages regress, but he didn’t suddenly turn into a pumpkin.

While Miller was only unappreciated during the postseason, Lynn has been regularly underestimated. He was written off after his breakout 2012 campaign, as many observers said his problems with left-handed hitters would hold him back in 2013. But it didn’t. Whether you fancy ERA, FIP, xFIP or wOBA allowed, Lynn did better against lefties in 2013 than he did in 2012. He walked fewer of them on a rate basis, and he allowed far fewer homers as well. The differences weren’t major, but they were enough to make him a three-win pitcher, and three-win pitchers don’t exactly grow on trees.

Over the past two seasons, only 32 pitchers have been more valuable than Lynn. His 6.0 WAR is better than Jeff Samardzija, Ricky Nolasco, C.J. Wilson, Matt Cain, Mike Minor, Jose Quintana, Jered Weaver and Justin Masterson. He doesn’t fare as well in RA9-WAR, which is likely the reason why he ends up being shoved to the periphery, but even here he has done better than Samardzija, and the Cubs have been demanding a ransom for him. Still, Lynn has experience in the bullpen, and he was good there. Both his ability to pitch there and pitch well there make him a potential rotation victim.

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Clocking in after these two is Jaime Garcia. Unlike Lynn, Garcia isn’t going to be flexible in his role. In fact, it’s an open question as to just what he has left. Projections are conservative, as they should be. Garcia battled shoulder troubles in October 2012, and decided to try and pitch through it. Now, he’s on the wrong side of both Tommy John and shoulder surgeries. He’s a lefty and just 27-years-old, and he’s had plenty of past success, but he’s one to watch in spring training. But whether or not he’s good, he can’t be used in any sort of high-leverage bullpen role, so he’s essentially starter or bust.

On a normal team, you’d slot these five guys into the rotation and do the dance of joy. But the Cardinals are not a normal team, and they have at least three additional candidates for the rotation. Carlos Martinez was twice ranked in the top 40 by Marc Hulet last year, and while there are concerns about him being able to be a starting pitcher long-term, you can’t know if he is a failed starter until you let him try to be a starter. Joe Kelly probably isn’t that good, but he had that shiny 2.69 ERA last season, and he shut down the Dodgers in Game 1 of the National League Championship Series, and things like that tend to linger in a manager’s mind — even if he did give up four runs in five innings in and took the loss in Game 5 of the NLCS. Finally, there is Rosenthal, who is the real fly in the ointment and/or monkey in the wrench here.

Rosenthal has been told he will be the closer next season, but he wants to start. And as a 24-year-old with four-to-five years of control, an electric fastball and (ostensibly) a four-pitch mix, the only reason to not let him try to start is because you have too many qualified candidates for the rotation. But is that really a good reason? Jason Motte should be ready to come back and hold down the bullpen, and even if he doesn’t, someone else will step up. Someone always does for the Cardinals. The bullpen was supposed to be the way that Rosenthal broke into the majors, not be where he stayed. Things don’t always work out the way you plan them, of course, but what is the harm in giving him his shot?

Perhaps I’m reading too much into the situation. Perhaps Martinez, Kelly and Rosenthal give St. Louis a deep bullpen that can toss multiple innings at a moment’s notice, and are happy to carry out the task. Perhaps Garcia will immediately be as good as he used to be. Perhaps Lynn is never considered for the bullpen. But perhaps Garcia won’t be the same, or be able to go at all. Perhaps people figure out how to lay off Wacha’s stuff. Perhaps Lynn gets relegated to the bullpen, or becomes trade bait. In any of those cases, the Cards will have plenty of reinforcements. And that’s a good thing, even if figuring out the pecking order gets complicated.





Paul Swydan used to be the managing editor of The Hardball Times, a writer and editor for FanGraphs and a writer for Boston.com and The Boston Globe. Now, he owns The Silver Unicorn Bookstore, an independent bookstore in Acton, Mass. Follow him on Twitter @Swydan. Follow the store @SilUnicornActon.

45 Comments
Oldest
Newest Most Voted
Ari Berkowitz
12 years ago

If you don’t feel comfortable relying on Garcia or Motte, the depth is pretty normal nowadays. Rosenthal and Kelly are relievers and they have six other guys, not including AAA fodder like a Tyler Lyons. All being considered, a team like the Mets, even with Harvey out have Colon, Niese, Gee, Wheeler, Mejia, Montero, Syndergaard, deGrom and just signed John Lannan are similarly positioned.

My point being, it isn’t uncommon to have lots of pitching depth these days.

Jimmy
12 years ago
Reply to  Ari Berkowitz

Tell that to the Phillies

jrubyMember since 2016
12 years ago
Reply to  Jimmy

Hey now! Name one team that wouldn’t want to have Jon Pettibone in their rotation!

And then name another… and another… and do that about 26 times.

Sigh. At least their top two are great…

tehzachatak
12 years ago
Reply to  Ari Berkowitz

This post is asinine.

Let’s go through some of your points.

First: you’re immediately discarding two guys “because you don’t feel comfortable relying on them”. We can play this game with a lot of teams. Removing two pitchers with serious upside from a list is obviously going to make it look worse. Are they going to be good? No idea, but they are still depth.

Second: “Rosenthal and Kelly are relievers”. Ok, what, exactly, leads you to make this assumption? Their demonstrated level of effectiveness as MLB players? Most (not all) MLB teams would be happy to get one of these guys and slot him into the end of their rotation right now.

Third: You’re comparing Rafael Montero, Noah Syndergaard and Jacob DeGrom to guys with proven MLB success? Please, I can dig in the farm system and find guys with high profile arms as well – Marco Gonzales, Tyrell Jenkins… the list continues. Is that a fair comparison either? No, I’m making it to illustrate how poor your comparison is.

Fourth: If you’re referring to John Lannan as depth and citing Tyler Lyons as “AAA fodder”, your player evaluation skills need some work.

tehzachatak
12 years ago
Reply to  tehzachatak

Moreover, this is just one team that you chose (the Mets). Please find me more teams that have similar depth to even the Mets. Do they exist? Yes. Is is uncommon? YES.

Clayton
12 years ago
Reply to  tehzachatak

Yeah, you just blew up that guy’s post. Pretty delusional he was.

Clayton
12 years ago
Reply to  tehzachatak

I chortled at the John Lannan line.

thehotteststove
12 years ago
Reply to  tehzachatak

Most teams would be excited about Tim Cooney or Zach Petrick getting some starts in the near future as well, but they aren’t even discussed. Obviously lower ceiling than the recent promotions, but there seem to be a ton of really high floors in this system.

SocraticGadfly
12 years ago
Reply to  tehzachatak

As far as actual events, Garcia is on the same pace as other roster pitcher. His injury history is partly stubbornness, as he tried, in multiple years, to pitch through the injury without surgery. Assuming the surgery went well, he’s a potentially pretty valuable lefty.

Otherwise agree with your “takedown.”

Clayton
12 years ago

Articles like this make me happy to be a Cardinals fan. Unfortunately, we have Mike Matheny at the helm. While he certainly improved some in 2013, he is by all accounts conventional.

I’d love to see Martinez and Rosenthal both get chances to start, but if they don’t, we have two elite arms at the back of the bullpen who can put out a fire.

Also, the author doesn’t mention one other potential starter – Kevin Siegrist.

paperlions
12 years ago
Reply to  Clayton

In Matheny’s defense, he isn’t really conventional so much as learning on the job…and when you don’t know much, convention is where you start. He is not autonomous, he is part of the structure and he regularly gets guidance and particular things. Check out the Cardinal sac bunts by non-pitchers and attempted steals from his first year to his second. He did much better his second year (fewer stolen base attempts by guys that have no business doing it) and 1/2 as many silly sac bunts.

Each year the FO identifies areas to improve. They teach Matheny and the coaching staff what they want them to understand and the coaches’ jobs are to get player buy in and execute the strategy. This off-season’s project is defensive shifts.

BMarkham
12 years ago
Reply to  Clayton

Siegrist pitched at AA and AAA as a reliever only in 2013 before joining the Cardinals pen midseason. He was a starter until the second half of the 2012 season. He’s put up his best numbers in the minors as a reliever, and is quoted to saying something to the affect that “Everything clicked” for him when he moved to the bullpen.

What Siegrist does have going for him is closer potential. He actually had a better K/BB rate against RHH this year, though it was a small sample. I hope they continue to have him pitch to RH and see how he performs.

chuckb
12 years ago
Reply to  BMarkham

I agree that Siegrist isn’t a realistic option for a starter. His BB% is far too high to last as a starter.

Al Gore Rhythm Method
12 years ago
Reply to  Clayton

Other than ruining Mujica in Mid-August last year, Matheny hasn’t done much to gripe about as manager. In his two seasons, St. Louis is 4th in the majors in regular season wins, easily first in run differential (304 to 241 over the Swingin’ A’s), and also first in playoff victories, including series triumphs against heavy Vegas favorites Washington in 2012 and Los Angeles in 2013.

While there are certainly some things I dislike about him personally & managerially, it’s nearly impossible to objectively say his tenure has thus far been anything but a spectacular success.

SocraticGadfly
12 years ago
Reply to  Clayton

Cards’ biggest worry for this year, other than doing right by Miller after last year’s postseason head-scratcher?

Get better at baserunning. Not “faster,” tho Wong helps, but “better.” Fortunately, they got rid of Freese, one of the biggest boneheads on the paths. And, if Bourjos puts Jay on the bench, that takes care of another bonehead.

Matheny’s been around long enough now, he knows this is a matter of smarts and discipline.

Aaron
12 years ago
Reply to  Clayton

as far as being unconventional goes, am i a fool to think there would be merit in a six-man rotation? start wainwright every fifth day, but throw martinez into the mix with the author’s other projected four. this would diminish the strain on the younger arms as well as garcia’s reconstructed one, which would hopefully amount to their being fresher come october. what’s the argument for not doing this?

DonP
12 years ago
Reply to  Clayton

I know this doesn’t apply to 99% of Cardinals fans, but only to the most vocal 1%. Can we please stop complaining about everyone on the roster?

Unfortunate to have Matheny at the helm? His first two years he made it to the NLCS. In his rookie managerial year of 2012 he was one win away from the WS. In 2013, he made it to the WS, and he has a .571 winning percentage. Most teams wish their manager sucked that bad. Granted the Cards have some on-field talent many teams don’t, but there are plenty of teams rich in on-field talent who aren’t as successful.

Jim
12 years ago

Obviously closers are not as valuable as starters but I agree with the decision to leave Rosenthal in the closer role. Even though I think his stuff would translate to being a starter I do think he needs some work on his off speed pitches and his gas makes him almost unhittable as a closer where you only get one look at him. In addition as mentioned there are seven other starting options and you can get by with only paying an All-Star caliber closer the league minimum for the next two years.

Clayton
12 years ago
Reply to  Jim

You’re right. Rosenthal would have a lot of work to do with secondary pitches.

DonP
12 years ago
Reply to  Jim

My fear with Rosenthal starting is that he’d throw too many high-octane fastballs and blow out his elbow.

Matthew Murphy
12 years ago

As a Cardinals fan, this is how I see things playing out, if I had to guess.

The rotation to start the season: Wainwright, Wacha, Miller, Lynn, and Garcia.
Rosenthal is the closer. I’d love to see him get a shot to start, but there’s too much depth, so why not keep him where we already know he can shine. His stuff can translate to 2-2.5 WAR as a reliever, which probably can’t be said for the other SP/RP candidates.
Because of Martinez’s limited time in the Majors and the strength of the bullpen, I could see a scenario where he starts off the season in triple-A so that the Cardinals can squeeze some extra team control out of him. Cards will give him the first shot to start if/when a starter hits the DL.
Kelly will continue to be used as a reliever who can carry a heavier workload, and will be in line behind Martinez for the rotation.

spmccaul
12 years ago
Reply to  Matthew Murphy

Good, because Kelly is essentially what Collmenter is to the Dbacks

bdd1
12 years ago
Reply to  Matthew Murphy

this post is EXACTLY what i have been thinking all off season. motte can replace martinez for the 8th, and they can keep him stretched out for the inevitable injury to any starting pitcher. you can’t put someone like lynn in the bullpen after the way he has pitched the last two years, and garcia makes no sense in the bullpen

chuckb
12 years ago
Reply to  Matthew Murphy

I hate to say this, because I’m a fan, but it wouldn’t surprise me if Garcia never throws another meaningful pitch in the big leagues.

SocraticGadfly
12 years ago
Reply to  Matthew Murphy

Pretty much agree. Per commenters below, if Motte proves himself as the man in the eighth inning, then he becomes trade bait, since his contract runs out in 2015.

rocket man
12 years ago

Wainwright threw 276 innings last year. He will be a 3 WAR pitcher this season tops. And the Cardinals and the lap dogging media are going to found out what all major league teams know, in 2014. That the league figures out young hard throwing starters, and big time regression is on the way. Already started with Miller in September.
With Rosenthal, the league hit .400 against his secondary pitches last year. He threw 90% fastballs, 31 in a row in one game. A starter he is not.

andy
12 years ago
Reply to  rocket man

yeah, the league’s always “figuring out young hard throwing starters.” it’s pretty much immediate, once they realize a guy is (a) young, and (b) hard-throwing.

“oh RIGHT,” says the league. “he’s throwing FASTBALLS REALLY FAST, and i just need to HIT THEM instead of NOT HITTING THEM. how simple!”

and that’s why young, hard throwers who broke out in 2011/2012 like max scherzer and matt moore and stephen strasburg and jordan zimmerman proceeded to suck balls last year, because the league figured out that all they were doing was throwing hard and it’s SO EASY once you figure that out, and… wait a sec…

JayMember since 2023
12 years ago
Reply to  rocket man

Well this is just not true. Batters hit .167 with a wRC+ of 29 against Rosenthal’s change, which is his primary secondary pitch (he threw about as many changes as he threw curves and sliders combined). He got swinging strikes 27.3% of the time he threw it. It’s an outstanding pitch. Coming after a 100 mph fastball it’s nearly unhittable.

chuckb
12 years ago
Reply to  Jay

Please don’t try to counter baseless idiocy with facts. They have no place on the internet.

SocraticGadfly
12 years ago
Reply to  rocket man

Thanks for the laugh, Rocket Man. The “lap dogging media” is part of the chuckle.

Young pitchers improve pitch selection, location, etc., with more experience? Did that ever enter your head?

Anon
12 years ago

The Cardinals depth is fairly unique due to the experience it has. Six starters with MLB rotation experience (Wainwright, Miller, Lynn, Garcia, Wacha, Kelly). Four more (former minor league starters) with MLB bullpen experience (Rosenthal, Martinez, Siegrist, Maness). Then you can start on the AAA and AA starters, many of which are more than acceptable spot starters if needed.

Paul
12 years ago
Reply to  Anon

I’d argue it’s more about the depth of talent than the depth of experience. Plenty of teams have former minor league starters in their bullpen and plenty have six starters with MLB rotation experience; few teams have the amount of ostensibly solid or better rotation options.

BMarkham
12 years ago

In Cardinals circles it’s relatively split whether Rosenthal should start or not. I’m very interested to see what he can do as a starter. He does have four legitimate pitches. As a RP of course he threw his best pitch most the time and his second best pitch most the other time. But as a starter he would have a much more balanced mix.

Sure, there’s some chance his stuff doesn’t translate as a starter, but being that he’s been absolutely dominant for us and he wants to start. I agree the rotation should be Wainwright, Wacha, Garcia, Lynn, and Miller.

But what I don’t agree with is Matheny told Carlos Martinez to train to start and he will likely start the year as the set-up man and then move to the rotation once someone get’s hurt or is ineffective. I think that role should have been given to Rosenthal. He earned it from his 2013 season. He was worth 2 WAR as a RP. Martinez ended the season strong but Rosenthal was one of the most valuable relievers in the game last year. Martinez may have one of the highest ceilings of all the young Cardinal pitchers, but I think he could benefit from a full year in the bullpen, like Rosenthal did in 2013. Martinez looks relatively raw compared to Rosenthal, who has already had a full successful season of striking out a buttload of major league hitters.

Basically, I don’t think Martinez should be able to leapfrog Rosenthal as a starter candidate just because Rosenthal had such an awesome season out of the pen. Then your basically punishing him for doing his job too well. Like I said though, if it’s shown to be not as valuable as a starter, he should be moved back to the pen. He deserves a chance though.

Nihongo Message
12 years ago

John Gast? I know he is off the 40-man roster and may become a set-up man afterward. But I could see him starting 10 games this season for the MLB team no problem.

Lou
12 years ago

Do you know what his recovery timetable is? Given the severity of his lat injury, I was under the impression he wasn’t expected to do much at all in ’14.

Seems like he’s been passed by Lyons, at least. And by midseason Cooney might be the next lefty in line for the rotation. He had superb results in AA last year.

thehotteststove
12 years ago
Reply to  Lou

this is what really demonstrates the depth of the system. Gast pitches decently/slightly below average in the majors for a stretch, gets hurt, and finds himself 6-7 spots lower on the depth chart by the time he is done rehabbing.

tom s.
12 years ago

Gast went through waivers without any team laying a claim on him. I’m assuming that means that his injury is effectively career-ending. I’m sure the other 29 MLB teams could figure out that he was a free left-handed reliever/back-of-rotation starter. The only reason that makes any sense for all those teams not to claim him is severity of injury.

John C.
12 years ago

The Nationals have a pretty good seven man depth (Strasburg, Gonzalez, Zimmermann, Fister, Detwiler, Roark, Jordan) with a respectable cadre of pitchers likely starting in AA as potential midseason emergency callups (Sam Solis, A.J. Cole, Taylor Hill). They have other promising pitchers in the pipeline as well (Matt Purke, Jake Johansen, Blake Treinen, etc) so that they don’t have any need to rush their true #1 prospect Lucas Giolito.

semperty
12 years ago

Personally I’d love to see all of them start the season on the 25-man roster in some fashion, or another. Obviously Rosenthal will be in the 9th (unfortunately – I’d love to see Matheny let him take on multiple innings regularly). To start, I would rather see Wainwright/Garcia/Wacha/Miller/Lynn (maybe not in that order) with Kelly as a reliever and Carlos Martinez as the long reliever to help keep him stretched out. Then, in mid-June or July, start to transition Lynn out of the rotation and Martinez in. It’d help keep Carlos’ innings/pitches low, and allow him to be an effective piece in our (hopeful) postseason run.

tz
12 years ago
Reply to  semperty

I think this is basically what will happen, except for murphym45’s suggestion that Martinez might start the year in the minors to help the Cards keep control over him longer. And if Motte is lights out when he comes back, maybe Rosenthal is the one who gets stretched to eventually join the rotation.

I don’t see Lynn necessarily getting bumped out of the rotation in any event, so it should be interesting to see how the logjam gets resolved. Kelly is likely the odd man out in any scenario.

jdbolickMember since 2016
12 years ago

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/revisiting-the-myth-of-the-five-man-rotation/ We know that it’s more common to split starts among six pitchers than five during the season, and Kelly’s ability to transition between relieving and starting as necessary is useful, while I agree that Carlos Martinez can stay in the minors until needed. Much like the Dodgers’ overcrowded outfield really isn’t overcrowded at all, the Cardinals’ overcrowded rotation is very neatly covering what can be reasonably expected as necessary.

rolenkid2000
12 years ago

I am in a 10 team keeper league, head-to-head points, with 9 keepers per team. Options for my last keeper are Lester, Griffin, and Lynn. Who should I keep? My other keepers are Goldschmidt, Cano, Reyes, Andrus, Dom Brown, Verlander, Price, Iwakuma

BobbyWestside
12 years ago

Do you guys think Martinez will crack the rotation this year? and how fantasy relevant is he right away if he does?