2015 Trade Value: The Top 10

Introduction
Players #50 to #41
Players #40 to #31
Players #30 to #21
Players #20 to #11

Man, this group is something else. I think I could make a solid case for any of the #1-#9 guys belonging in the top three, and I’ve re-ordered this thing so many times I have lost almost all of my conviction about there being much difference between guys at this level. If you prefer the guy at #8 to the guy at #4, I’m not going to put up much of a fight. These guys are all special, and we’re lucky that the sport we love is being overrun with players this talented.

As a reminder, in addition to the player’s biographical information, I’ve added a summary of his contract situation, and as a new feature this year, Dan Szymborski has provided me with five year ZIPS forecasts for all of the players on the list, which I’ve listed along with their 2016 projection. Of course, not every player listed is under control for the next five years — some are locked up well beyond that time frame — but this should offer you a pretty decent view of what a player is expected to do both in the short-term and the longer-term, according to Dan’s forecasting system.

For the contract details, I’m only displaying future obligations beginning with their 2016 salary. I’ve tried to ensure that these are as accurate as can be, but they were also collected manually, so there probably will be some mistakes; there are plenty of weird clauses and options that make aggregating all this information particularly annoying. Also, we’re not including things like All-Star bonuses or incentive escalators, as this is intended to give more of a big picture view than be a precise accounting of the exact cost of a future player. A few hundred thousand here and there won’t change the rankings.

Also, keep in mind that some players have contracts that give them a guaranteed minimum, but they are also able to opt-into arbitration when they are eligible. This is pretty common now with prominent international signings, and so some of these guys will probably earn more than their contracts currently call for, but I’ve still just included the guaranteed minimum in the future salary commitment because we don’t know for sure that they’re going to opt into arbitration yet.

Finally, we’ve also included a nifty little graphic at the bottom that visualizes a lot of the information contained below, so if you want to see the projections and contract status for everyone together, you can get a summary of that at the bottom. The chart goes out five years, so some players have additional value beyond what’s displayed, but it should give you a good overview of what each player offers going forward.

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Alright, on to the list.


#10: Chris Archer, SP, Tampa Bay
Controlled Through: 2021
Guaranteed Dollars: $23 million
2016 ZIPS WAR: +4.3
Five year ZIPS WAR: +20.9
Last Year: #44

The AL’s answer to Gerrit Cole, Archer has also figured out how to use an absurd slider to solve his platoon problems, and has developed into one of the game’s best pitchers, in the same class as the guys we mentioned yesterday. But he’s ahead of all of them because of his long-term deal, which keeps him in Tampa Bay for the next six years, with the Rays only on the hook for $38.5 million even if they exercise both team options. And there’s basically no risk here, as they’re only out $23 million over the next four years if things go off the rails.

Archer is an in-his-prime #1 starter who will make a little over $6 million per year for more than the next half-decade. Deals like this are why the Rays remain contenders year after year. Archer gives them a massive competitive advantage, and that’s why he’s forced me to abandon my “no pitchers in the top 10” guideline. When a pitcher is this good and this cheap for this long, there’s no way to put him any lower than this.


#9: Andrew McCutchen, OF, Pittsburgh
Controlled Through: 2018
Guaranteed Dollars: $41.5
2016 ZIPS WAR: +6.2
Five year ZIPS WAR: +28.4
Last Year: #2

I legitimately feel badly that I’m putting McCutchen ninth. When I started sketching this out a month or so ago, I assumed he’d be fourth or fifth, sliding just a little bit from last year due to getting one year closer to free agency. There’s no other reason to move him down, as he remains a top-tier player even after battling through early season knee problems. But then as I started stacking up all the guys who belonged in this range, and comparing three years of McCutchen versus five or six years of someone younger and almost as good, and I just couldn’t get him any higher than this. I’ve said it before in other write-ups, but this isn’t reflective of McCutchen losing a lot of value; this is just him getting passed by a crazy wave of talent.

On performance, Cutch is still likely to remain an elite player; he ranks fifth in the five year ZIPS forecast, even ahead of most of the young guys heading into their prime. But because he only has three years of team control remaining, the Pirates can only count on retaining 60% of that value, and while $42 million for the roughly +18 WAR they should expect over the next three years is a crazy bargain, a few other players just offer 80-90% of the production, but also for more years and at a lower cost.

As much as I love McCutchen — he’s a probable Hall of Famer in the prime of his career — I can’t get him any higher than this. With a more normal crop of young talent, he’d probably still be top five, so there’s no shame in ranking ninth in this group. McCutchen’s amazing, and I hope the Pirates fans enjoy him for as long as they get to.


#8: Manny Machado, 3B, Baltimore
Controlled Through: 2018
Guaranteed Dollars: None
2016 ZIPS WAR: +6.3
Five year ZIPS WAR: +34.2
Last Year: #8

Of the 50 players in this series, only one — I’ll let you guess who that is — projects to be more valuable over the next five years than Baltimore’s star third baseman. That’s right, ZIPS thinks Machado is going to be the second best player in baseball going forward, a two-way star who has turned into a monster at the plate. It’s easy to lo look at Machado and still see him as a glove-first guy who hits decently, since that’s mostly what he was for his first two years in the majors, but that’s an outdated view of his current skills; Machado has added legitimate power, nearly doubled his walk rate, and simultaneously improved his contact rate to an above average level; he’s now a beast of a hitter who also happens to be an elite defensive third baseman.

And while he’s been around a while, it’s worth remembering that Machado turned 23 just two weeks ago. Most guys his age are still trying to crack the big leagues, but he’s already 1,600 plate appearances and +14 WAR into what looks like the start of a pretty incredible career. But like McCutchen, years of team control push him down beyond where his talent suggests, as the Orioles only have his rights through the 2018 season, and this breakout season is going to make it difficult to get him to sign a long-term deal as he heads towards arbitration this winter.

Toss in the risk that comes with a guy who has already had surgery on both knees, and he slots in eighth instead of the top three spot I initially had him penciled in for, but if you just care about short-term value, you’re not going to do much better than Machado. The guy has gone from star-in-the-making to superstar-in-the-present.


#7: Anthony Rizzo, 1B, Chicago
Controlled Through: 2021
Guaranteed Dollars: $34 million
2016 ZIPS WAR: +4.7
Five year ZIPS WAR: +22.6
Last Year: #12

Rizzo’s breakout came a year ago when he converted a bunch of doubles into home runs, and turned into one of the game’s best first baseman in the process. To follow that act this year, he’s decided to just stop striking out and start stealing bases, taking his game up even another level, and now he’s just one of the best players in all of baseball. Being a first baseman limits his upside a little bit compared to guys who can play more demanding positions, but Rizzo’s even a plus defender at first base, so he’s a star with no real flaw.

And, of course, the Cubs locked him up pre-breakout, so they’ve got him at a massive discount. The $34 million in guarantees covers the next four seasons, but then they have two team options at $14.5 million each, but they only add a marginal $25 million to the total because the Cubs almost certainly won’t be paying the buyouts on those years. If those options are picked up, Rizzo will cost $59 million over the next six years; if he were a free agent this winter and teams were limited to six years offers, he’d probably still be pushing $200 million, so yeah, this is a pretty good deal for the Cubs.


#6: Chris Sale, SP, Chicago
Controlled Through: 2019
Guaranteed Dollars: $21.15 million
2016 ZIPS WAR: +6.2
Five year ZIPS WAR: +29.2
Last Year: #11

Because Clayton Kershaw exists, we can’t quite call Chris Sale the best pitcher in baseball. But we can point out that he’s almost the best pitcher in baseball, as the differences between them at this point are barely noticeable. Here are their respective lines over the last year:

Name BB% K% GB% HR/FB LOB% BABIP ERA- FIP- xFIP-
Chris Sale 6% 33% 40% 9% 79% 0.302 64 61 66
Clayton Kershaw 5% 31% 50% 10% 77% 0.292 66 60 60

Kershaw’s been doing this longer, so we can have more confidence in his ability to keep this up, but for the last year or so, Sale has basically been his equal. And while Kershaw is making $33 million per year from the Dodgers, Sale will make $33 million over the next three seasons combined, and that’s only if the White Sox pick up the first of their two remaining team options. Assuming both options are picked up, Sale will make $48 million over the next four years, while providing the White Sox with something like +24 WAR in the process.

$2 million per win for the best pitcher in the American League; it’s no wonder the White Sox are so reticent to take offers for their ace, even if other teams would be pounding down their door the moment Sale hit the market. This kind of value is just really difficult to replace.

And he still can’t crack the top five. This whole group is ridiculous.


#5: Carlos Correa, SS, Houston
Controlled Through: 2021
Guaranteed Dollars: None
2016 ZIPS WAR: +3.9
Five year ZIPS WAR: +25.5
Last Year: Unranked

Yeah, this is a very aggressive rating for a guy who has been in the big leagues for a month. But while I was putting this final section together, I’ll note that he was actually closer to moving up a spot than he was to moving out of the top five; in fact, there were several versions of this list where he ended up at #4, and I wouldn’t be surprised if a decent amount of people would take his upside over a couple of the lower risk/reward guys ahead of him.

That +25.5 WAR forecast over the next five years? That’s actually higher than both of the next two guys on the list, and one of those two isn’t even under team control for all five of those years. So while Correa hasn’t proven himself over a long haul in the big leagues, the history of guys who do what he has done is very positive, and we shouldn’t really be looking at Correa as a prospect anymore. He’s certainly not a finished product, and his success isn’t guaranteed, but he looks like a guy who could be the best shortstop in the American League next year, and he’s not even 21 yet.

So the upside is obvious, and given the dearth of quality shortstops in baseball right now, there’s a lot of present value here too. But there’s also more uncertainty here, more speculation about what should happen assuming Correa follows a normal career arc, rather than observation of what he’s already become. He’s in the process of crossing that bridge from prospect to big leaguer, but the guys ahead of him just offer pretty great upsides themselves, and without quite as much risk.

If you’re not risk-averse, I could actually see putting Correa as high as #2 on this list, given the six years of team control remaining, and the likelihood that he’ll miss Super Two, meaning three of those years will cost next to nothing. There’s an argument for it, anyway, and if he crushes major league pitching for another year, he very well might be in the mix for the top spot next July. But for now, 32 games into his big league career, I’ll go with the slightly safer assets. But if you prefer Correa over all these other guys, you may very well be making the right call.


#4: Kris Bryant, 3B, Chicago
Controlled Through: 2021
Guaranteed Dollars: None
2016 ZIPS WAR: +4.4
Five year ZIPS WAR: +23.0
Last Year: #29

A friend in the game — who has seen plenty of Bryant this year — told me a month ago that his comparison for Bryant was Mike Schmidt. While expecting him to match the career of the best third baseman of all-time is probably unfair, Bryant is clearly a pretty special talent, as he’s on track to put up a +5.5 WAR rookie season despite spending the first couple of weeks in the minors. And that’s without hitting for a ton of power, which was supposed to be his calling card. If you add a bit of a power spike to the surprisingly strong defense and baserunning he’s shown early on, you have a perennial MVP candidate.

But, there is one little hiccup; Bryant swings and misses a lot, and the comments I made about Joc Pederson apply a bit here too. And that’s likely one of the reasons why ZIPS seems relatively conservative about his future growth, thinking Bryant is already maxing out his skills, because it’s just really difficult to be consistently better than a +5 WAR player while striking out 30% of the time. In fact, from a statistical perspective, Bryant and Pederson aren’t all that different, though I don’t know anyone in the game who would take Pederson if given a choice between the two.

As long as he hits for power and draws walks, Bryant will be fine, even with the strikeouts. But the contact issues do seem to potentially put a bit of a lid on his ceiling. Overall, he profiles as a something like a healthy version of Giancarlo Stanton — with a little less power but a little more value in other parts of the game — which gives him one of the highest floors of any player with a half season of big league experience you could imagine.

So while Bryant might have a little less best-player-in-baseball potential than some of the others in this area of the series, he’s a relatively safe bet to be a top 20 player, especially since it looks like he might be able to stick at third for a while. And it’s probably worth noting that Mike Schmidt had a serious strikeout problem at age-23, but then fixed it on his way to a +10 WAR season at age-24. If my friend’s aggressive comparison is right, Bryant might very well be number one on this list next year, and all my comments about a limit on his upside will look quite silly.


#3: Paul Goldschmidt, 1B, Arizona
Controlled Through: 2019
Guaranteed Dollars: $27.5 million
2016 ZIPS WAR: +5.3
Five year ZIPS WAR: +23.9
Last Year: #3


#2: Bryce Harper, OF, Washington
Controlled Through: 2018
Guaranteed Dollars: $5 million
2016 ZIPS WAR: +6.1
Five year ZIPS WAR: +32.3
Last Year: #4

Like with Betts and Pederson yesterday, I think it makes sense to do these write-ups together, since I went back and forth a number of times on their placement relative to each other. The case for each is actually pretty simple.

Harper is is the kid in the midst of an historic season at age-22, the generational talent finally living up to the hype. He’s a Hall of Fame talent having a Hall of Fame season, and will probably be the best player in the National League for as long as he stays in the National League.

Goldschmidt is the guy with the longer track record but, more importantly, a contract that ties him to the Diamondbacks for the next four years at a grand total of $40 million. Just on talent and future production, I expect most people would take the 22 year old outfielder, but that fourth year matters, especially at the prices Goldschmidt is locked in at. When you have an unquestioned superstar making $10 million a year for the rest of his prime years, the value of even one extra season adds up in a hurry. In 2019, when Harper has priced himself out of the realistic budgets for 28 of the 30 franchises in baseball, Goldschmidt will still be making just $14.5 million.

So if Goldschmidt were likely to come close to matching Harper’s value the next few years, you’d probably default to the guy with the extra year, the guy who isn’t earning extra money with every home run he launches. But ZIPS thinks Harper’s three year WAR is going to be nearly the equal of Goldschmidt’s total even with the extra year. ZIPS expects that Goldschmidt’s extra year will only serve to offset the difference in production, not overcome it, and, for what it’s worth. I’d probably take the over on those Harper projections.

And as for the cost difference, because the Nationals bought out his first year of arbitration already — as part of a deal avoid a grievance over whether he should have been able to opt into arbitration last winter — Harper might not be that much more expensive over the next three years than Goldschmidt will be over the next four. He’ll get $5 million next year, and even with another monster season, he’s probably not going to push up past $35 million in salary over those last two years.

So if the cost and the production are similar, you’d rather have it front-loaded. Better to get +19 WAR in three years than +20 WAR over four, especially for the same price; the relative value of more wins in the short-term is large enough to offset the loss of the fourth year of control. So while Paul Goldschmidt is a great player on one of the most team-friendly contracts in all of baseball, I’d give up more to get Harper’s next three years than I would to get Goldschmidt’s next four.


#1: Mike Trout, OF, Anaheim
Controlled Through: 2020
Guaranteed Dollars: $134.25 million
2016 ZIPS WAR: +9.6
Five year ZIPS WAR: +47.0
Last Year: #1

What, you were expecting someone else? Most of us will probably never see another player this good at this age. We’ve gone from pulling out Mickey Mantle comparisons to having to admit that that might not be a fair comparison to Trout. ZIPS projects him for +47 WAR over the next five years; over that same time period, the system projects Paul Goldschmidt and Kris Bryant to be worth +46.9 WAR combined. Trout is literally as good — on the field, mind you, not taking contracts into account — as the 3rd and 4th place guys in this series put together.

But, you might say, he’s not that cheap anymore. The Angels gave him a $145 million extension last year, and because they’re the kings of backloaded contracts, 95% of the committed salary has not yet been paid. But think about what the market has been paying for wins of late, something in the range of $7 to $8 million per projected win on long-term deals. At that range, if you accept that Trout’s roughly a +9 WAR player going forward, Trout’s free agent price over the next five season should be something like $350 million. Yes, based on what’s teams are paying to acquire wins in free agency, Mike Trout’s overall production is worth something like $70 million per year, and if you really believe that teams will pay more to consolidate performance into a single player, you probably need to argue for something closer to $80 million per year.

I know it sounds crazy to suggest that any player is worth that that when the other stars of the game are getting roughly $30 million in AAV on their long-term extensions, but with all due respect to everyone else playing baseball right now, no one is even close to Mike Trout. Here are the ten highest five-year ZIPS forecasts for guys we’ve profiled in this series.

Trout

The next closest guy is +13 WAR behind Trout. +13 WAR over five years is a good big league ballplayer, probably in the range of what the Blue Jays were hoping to get from Russell Martin when they signed him as a free agent this winter for $82 million. And that’s the gap between Trout and #2, much less all the other guys who aren’t even at the Machado/Harper level.

No, Mike Trout isn’t cheap from a budgetary standpoint, but no player in the game brings a higher return on investment than Trout, even at $135 million over the next five years. He’s literally twice as good as any player you can buy in free agency, and there’s no reason to think he’s going to stop producing at a high level any time soon.

So, yeah, it’s Trout again. Sorry that there isn’t a lot of suspense on this one, but that lack of intrigue exists because we have the pleasure of watching one of the greatest players of all time. That’s a pretty good trade-off, I think.

TradeValue101





Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.

264 Comments
Oldest
Newest Most Voted
TL DR
11 years ago

FIST COMMENT

Nolan Ryan
11 years ago
Reply to  TL DR

Are you Robin Ventura’s face?

vivalajeter
11 years ago
Reply to  Nolan Ryan

The whole “change my name to an actual person to make a witty comment” is way overplayed, but that was legitimately funny. Well done!

Jacob DaBomb
11 years ago
Reply to  vivalajeter

Im sure hes thrilled he got your approval xD

Jimbo
11 years ago
Reply to  Nolan Ryan

It should say, “Are you the top of Robin Ventura’s head?” because that is where Nolan delivered four or five rabbit punches.

Baseball Anagram Value #10-1
11 years ago

Latest installment of Baseball Anagram Values on NotGraphs:

http://www.fangraphs.com/not/notgraphs-a-valedictory-statement/#comment-327417

buctober 2015
11 years ago

As a pirates fan, i can say that we do enjoy watching Cutch go out and do his thing day in and day out. Its going to be a sad strange day when Cutch suits up in different colors. One that i dont think ill ever be ready for

durn
11 years ago
Reply to  buctober 2015

If they win a championship or two, considering the draught that he would have helped end, do you think they’d ever trade him?

Pirates Hurdles
11 years ago
Reply to  durn

It ain’t gonna be a trade, he will be a free agent after 2018 and will almost certainly command more money than NH will spend. NH seems to cling to the 20% of payroll concept (ie no player should make more than that).

New Hampshire
11 years ago

With only ten state employees, word gets around quick about who’s making how much.

matt w
11 years ago

Ten state employees and everyone else in the state is in the legislature.

NATS Fan
11 years ago

I am not sure why, but the new Hampshire comment made me laugh really hard!

buctober 2015
11 years ago
Reply to  durn

Tbh im not sure. It would make a ton of sense to trade him the year before his contract ends from a baseball stand point. It is highly unlikely that, barring another team friendly deal, he could be resigned, and he would obviously bring in a haul. However, from a fan/PR stand point it would be a tough sell to convince these pirate fans that its the right decision. Weve suffered so much and to many this would have a feel of how things used to be in the dark ages. Tho if he can bring a championship back to Pittsburgh, it might make things a little easier on some

Yanks23242
11 years ago
Reply to  buctober 2015

But the Pirates will likely be contending at that point and ownership will never be able to spin trading their best player in the middle of a pennant race unless they’d get a superstar in return (which they won’t)

bALLS & sTRIKES
11 years ago
Reply to  buctober 2015

I think the Pirates pick up the 2018 option, then move him in the 2017 offseason. They should be able to get a nice haul for the then-31 year old.
Pirates will still have a nice core (potentially) of Marte, Polanco, Harrison, Cole, Kang for 2018.
Hopefully Taillon, Glasnow in rotation. Austin Meadows in oF.

Pirates will have to move him at some point. Just buisness.

Pirates Hurdles
11 years ago
Reply to  buctober 2015

Terrifying thought of the morning – had Cutch not signed that extension he would be a free agent in 3 months. It would have been another Bonds scenario watching him walk away in his prime. TY Mr. Huntington and Mr. Nutting.

I can’t see them trading him while in contention, now a bad year or an injury plagued season could change the calculus.

Anthony
11 years ago
Reply to  buctober 2015

Yeah, I wouldn’t write off the possibility of the Pirates trading McCutchen during the 2017-18 off-season. The A’s and Rays have shown that the way to build a consistent contender in a small market is to be willing to lower your championship odds in a given season in the interest of extending your window. While it was a minor move that I’m hesitant to read too much into, the Pirates’ trading Snider for prospects this off-season shows at least some tendency to think along those lines.

matt w
11 years ago
Reply to  buctober 2015

I can’t really read anything into the Snider move–he was a fourth OF (they weren’t going to let him block Polanco) coming off a season that would’ve made him more valuable to other teams than to the Bucs. Unless Meadows is knocking the door down by then it’d be really heard to expect to replace Cutch.

Not to say they won’t do it–they might be looking at teams like the A’s and figuring that maybe they could bring in a haul for next year, maybe like the A-Gon trade–but it’d be a blow for that year.

NATS Fan
11 years ago
Reply to  buctober 2015

Go buy a Million “Cutch” T-shirts the year the expect to trade him and then see if he gets traded?

Andrelton's Big Rig
11 years ago

That ZiPS forecast for Harper actually feels pessimistic considering some of the other projections that have been shown. Feels strange to say that as a 6 war projection is still really good.

Pig.Pen
11 years ago

Totally agree. I think part of the reason why is that they’re using fWAR and UZR doesn’t like Harper. DRS, on the other hand, does like Harper and sees him as a plus defender, instead of an average to slightly below average defender. The other thing is that ZiPS is rooted in historical information to make predictions, so what happens when you have players like Harper and Trout who are truly different than any in history? Couple that with the fact that those type of players are in much shorter supply and there’s a bit of a SSS issue with players in that rarefied air.

Personally, I’d take Harper over Trout because I think Harper will age much better than Trout because less of his value is tied up in his legs.

durn
11 years ago

It’s crazy to think that we consider around 60 career WAR as hall of fame worthy, and Trout might hit that before he’s like 31 or 32.

brian
11 years ago
Reply to  durn

Or 28

brian
11 years ago
Reply to  brian

Or 26

durn
11 years ago
Reply to  brian

it’s scary

Baby Gerald
11 years ago
Reply to  durn

I am really scared right now

Diamond Joe Q
11 years ago
Reply to  durn

Baby Gerald, we can’t help but wonder what mischief you’ll get into next…

Ross
11 years ago
Reply to  durn

Trout is going to end the year around 40 career WAR. He is playing in his age 23 season. He will probably hit 60 during his age 25 or 26 season and by 31 will likely be pushing top 15-20 ever.

Ross
11 years ago
Reply to  Ross

Well. I shouldn’t say likely. Even as good as Trout is, it still isn’t likely he will average 10 wins per year over a 10 year span.

james
11 years ago
Reply to  Ross

If nothing else the speed will start to dry up in his late 20ies. He also loses value moving to an easier position.

al
11 years ago
Reply to  Ross

Remember how Pujols was a shoe in for 8 WAR every year because he had been so consistent and it couldn’t possibly change?

tz
11 years ago
Reply to  Dave Cameron

…at age 24, the same as Puckett was when he made his major league debut.

Will Graham
11 years ago
Reply to  Dave Cameron

To be fair, Kirby Puckett is a horrible hall of famer and was a pretty huge douche.

KCDaveInLA
11 years ago
Reply to  Dave Cameron

This projection would put Trout for career WAR right between Roberto Clemente and Joe DiMaggio by the end of his contract…oh my.

Salty Dog
11 years ago
Reply to  Dave Cameron

Best guess, what year does Trout drop out of the top place on your list?

bruins01
11 years ago
Reply to  Salty Dog

Barring injury or an inexplicable Longoria-esque decline… probably the day he signs a $500 million contract.

Josh
11 years ago
Reply to  Dave Cameron

I just find it amusing that Barry Bonds put up 47.3 WAR from 2001 to 2004… I love looking at Barry Bonds stats!

Geo
11 years ago
Reply to  Josh

I hope no one needles you about it Josh!

Nick
11 years ago
Reply to  durn

More like 27 or 28 I think…..

Anthony
11 years ago
Reply to  durn

Well I think he’s almost certain to pass 60 WAR in 2018, which, if I’m not mistaken, would be his age-26 season. He was born in August of 1991, so there’s a very good chance he passes 60 WAR before his 27th birthday. He’s at 35 WAR right now, and should finish the season around ~39 WAR. 9 WAR next season and 9 WAR in 2017 puts him at 57 WAR entering 2018, and I’d feel confident he’d surpass 3 WAR that year before his birthday. We’re still around a month or so from his birthday this season (when he’s gonna turn just 24) and he’s already got 5.5 WAR.

Bill
11 years ago

Where would Xander fall? Surprised he’s not even in the top 50.

brian
11 years ago
Reply to  Bill

#33

Dan
11 years ago
Reply to  Bill

He was 33rd.

#33
11 years ago
Reply to  Bill

was Xander.

Jim
11 years ago
Reply to  Bill

Is there an echo in here?

33
11 years ago
Reply to  Bill

Hey, check me out.

Carlos Correa
11 years ago
Reply to  Bill

I didn’t catch that, what was Xander? 33rd you say? Good for him… (steps back into batting cage)

Bill
11 years ago
Reply to  Bill

Xander isn’t on the list.

Carry on My Heyward Son
11 years ago

Corey Seager ranked 31st overall and is the only player currently in the minor leagues to make the list. Is the gap between Seager and the number two prospect in baseball (JP Crawford, Giolito, Urias) really that big?

Mark L
11 years ago
Reply to  Dave Cameron

/url]

kid
11 years ago

I don’t think that Crawford’s offensive ceiling is nearly as high as Seager’s. And as far as the pitchers go, they’ve got basically no experience in the high minors, so it’s really tough to aggressively rank them. DeGrom, for example, is young by pitcher standards, but he has a track record of excellence at or above the AAA level.

Carry on My Heyward Son
11 years ago
Reply to  kid

Pretty amazing Bumgarner is over a year younger than deGrom.

Well-Beered Englishman
11 years ago

Wow, this is true. New favorite baseball trivia fact.

sheeks9
11 years ago

Bumgarner has some damn impressive numbers for a 35 year old veteran.

Jimmy Rollins
11 years ago

WHY DO PEOPLE KEEP TALKING TO ME ABOUT SEATTLE’S THIRD BASEMAN?!?!

WHAT DO I CARE?!?!

Rational Fan
11 years ago

Urias > Seager, Crawford and Giolito

Who is Zorbist?
11 years ago

Kevin Kiermaier is better than half the players mentioned.

Tell me about how is ISO is lucky 2 years in a row, and his defense is overrated, and I’ll tell you about how Bryant’s 30% k rate and .370 BABIP will sneak up on him. (I think Bryant is excellent. I’m making a point by being outrageous).

tz
11 years ago

I’m guessing the projection systems had his defense projected down from the current (humanly unsustainable) 30 runs/year level down to something more like 10-15 runs per year, with a steady decline (Zips has him worth just 5 runs on defense the rest of 2015 for example).

So even with his 7 WAR over his first 600+ PA, he’s probably projected for about 3-4 WAR for next year, with a steady decline with his assumed defensive regression. Even so, that would still seem to put him on the bubble for inclusion in this group.

(Though I wouldn’t trade George Springer for him straight up).

ReuschelCakes
11 years ago

What is your WAR projection for him?

Dunno about ZiPS, but BP has him at ~12.5 for the next 5yrs which would not be close to putting him at “better than half the players mentioned” — add to that his age (25.2) and likely defensive regression (as mentioned above) at CF and you get an interesting player wit ha lot of value but not a clear top 50 guy….

O'KieboomerMember since 2021
11 years ago
Reply to  ReuschelCakes

Do we trust projections that aren’t yet properly weighting into their algorithms his MLB production?

tz
11 years ago
Reply to  O'Kieboomer

Good point.

I don’t think Dave blindly took the raw projections and cranked out a mathematical formula to rank everyone (see his comment on Harper’s projection). So I would assume that Kiermaier continuing to exceed expectations would be factored in.

Who is Zorbist?
11 years ago
Reply to  ReuschelCakes

Well, I’m thinking that 108 games=4 WAR, 86 games this year = 3 WAR. Who is projecting him to be worth 12 WAR over the next 5 year, and why do they think fangraphs can’t calculate WAR very well.

Otter
11 years ago

If Bryant’s BABIP was, say, .310 instead of .369, is he still 4th? Between a high BABIP and contact concerns, he fells a tad high. I think he falls to 9th and everyone moves up a spot.

brian
11 years ago
Reply to  Otter

Contract concerns? He’s got 6 years of control left after this year. What’s the concern? K’s worry me a bit as far as ceiling. although I think he’s going to hit for more power/HR very very soon too.

That said I wouldn’t argue with slotting Bryant 9th.

vivalajeter
11 years ago
Reply to  brian

Contact, not Contract.

$cott Bora$
11 years ago
Reply to  vivalajeter

Says who?

lysdexic
11 years ago
Reply to  brian

lol contact, not contract concerns

Jackie T.
11 years ago
Reply to  brian

“contact concerns”

AcuVue Customer Support
11 years ago
Reply to  Jackie T.

“This is Stephanie, how can I help you today?”

Angel Hernandez
11 years ago
Reply to  Jackie T.

Oops, wrong number. My vision is just @#@%!ing perfect.

kid
11 years ago
Reply to  Otter

Fair points, though ZiPS does like Bryant to have a relatively high BABIP (.351 RoS). If he never does address the strikeout issues, he’s prime Adam Dunn with speed and defense, and that’s still a 4-5 win player.

busy scouting t-ball
11 years ago
Reply to  kid

Adam dunn with speed and defense is way more than a 4 win player. Adam dunn being adam dunn had a 4 and a 5 win year.

The Other Guy
11 years ago
Reply to  Otter

Lawn sack concerns? He has somebody to cut his grass. What’s the concern?

Sean
11 years ago

From Being Dealt Straight-up for Mark DeRosa to #10 on FanGraphs’ Trade Value Piece: The Chris Archer Story.

Some appreciation on that asset. And obviously kudos to the Rays for locking him up.

Who is Zorbist?
11 years ago
Reply to  Sean

Delmon Young turns into Matt Garza. Matt Garza turns into Chris Archer. Well played Friedman. Well played.

The Other Guy
11 years ago
Reply to  Sean

Huh?What does DeRosa have to do with Archer?

The Other Guy
11 years ago
Reply to  The Other Guy

Kevin Bacon.

Sean
11 years ago
Reply to  The Other Guy

The Indians traded Chris Archer for Mark DeRosa.

The Other Guy
11 years ago
Reply to  The Other Guy

ooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt

Stanton Like M'Daddy
11 years ago

Is Scherzer not included because of his 613-year contract?

Anon21
11 years ago

It was more-or-less a fair bargain or possibly a slight overpay when they signed him, and now you’re getting one fewer year of peak performance. He might be a top 100 trade value, but not top 50.

Buccos
11 years ago

I know everyone plays these what if games but if the Pirates had just taken Machado over Taillon they would probably be something close to WS favorites.

Pirates Hurdles
11 years ago
Reply to  Buccos

and if they had taken Hultzen over Cole they wouldn’t be top contenders. Draft games like this are a waste of time.

Buccos
11 years ago

I know but the Machado pick is one where I felt they were actually trying and made the wrong pick. And I’d like to see what Ray Searage could do with Hultzen.

Alice Cooper
11 years ago
Reply to  Buccos

Be patient. Taillon will be good. Maybe not Machado top-2 player good, but you win championships with pitching.

pitnick
11 years ago
Reply to  Buccos

And also with hitting and defense and baserunning.

Braden
11 years ago

Mike Trout is 11 months and 10 days into his 23rd year, meaning he has 20 days to accumulate 1.5 WAR to become the all-time WAR leader for players before their 24th birthday.

tz
11 years ago
Reply to  Braden

He’s had plenty of months with 2+ WAR. I’d give even odds on Trout getting 1.5 WAR in the next 20 days.

lysdexic
11 years ago
Reply to  tz

lol as good as trout is… even odds on 1.5 war in 20 days?

he has one off day so that’s 19 games, if he gets 1.5 WAR that puts him on a pace for 12.8 WAR for the season. mike trout is really good and it’s not impossible, but even odds? c’mon now.

I’d say he has a 20% shot

tz
11 years ago
Reply to  lysdexic

lol right! Averaging 9 WAR per season works out to 1.5 WAR per month, so 20% is probably a lot closer.

Though I would still offer even odds if I were a bookie. Have to make a living too.

Disappointing Video Game Trivia Guy
11 years ago
Reply to  lysdexic

Trout hits better than I do in MLB The Show… on easy

TR
11 years ago
Reply to  lysdexic

If we assume that Trout is a TTL 9-11 win player (error bars for def metrics), then is a 12-13 win season really that unlikely?

Jason B
11 years ago
Reply to  lysdexic

Number of 12.0+ WAR seasons since 1945: five.

Number of non-pitcher 12.0+ WAR seasons since 1945: one. Yaz, 1967, 12.4 WAR.

So is it unlikely that Trout will get 12-13?

Yes, quite.

Grammar Police
11 years ago
Reply to  Braden

If you describe it that way, wouldn’t that be 11 mos 10 days into his 24th year? I.E. If you had an 11 month old baby, you would say he is 11 months into his 1st year, but you wouldn’t call him 1 until his first birthday.

Braden
11 years ago
Reply to  Grammar Police

Yes, my bad, grammar police.

Grammar Police
11 years ago
Reply to  Braden

No, there was no, grammar errors, in that previous, statement by you.

matt w
11 years ago
Reply to  Braden

Nothing grammatically wrong with “Yes, my bad, grammar police,” unless you consider “My bad” to be itself ungrammatical (which it isn’t, being an idiom). “Yes” is an interjection set off by a comma, while “grammar police” is a vocative also set off by a comma. Grammatically impeccable. (Sentence fragments can also be grammatically impeccable.)

It was, however, semantically in error, as the comment to which he was replying was criticizing his semantics rather than his grammar. So it should have read “Yes, my bad, semantics police.”

This has been an attempt at calling in the Nitpicking National Guard for situations the Grammar and Semantics Police can’t handle.

IZZY2112
11 years ago
Reply to  Braden

I don’t think that’s quite correct. I assume you’re looking at the WAR leaderboards through the age 23 season, which has Williams at 36.4 and Trout at 35. But Williams turned 24 on August 30th and hit .435/.585/.899 after that. It would seem that Cobb, with 36.2 WAR through age 23, is the one that Trout needs to pass and he needs 1.3 WAR to do that.

Marco
11 years ago

I don’t know how to gather “over the last year” stats Dave is using. Can somebody point me in the right direction, or add Kluber to the Sale and Kershaw chart? I’m curious how close he is – Kluber has had an absurd last year.

TheGrandslamwichMember since 2026
11 years ago
Reply to  Marco

It’s under “splits” in the stat pages.

Jason
11 years ago
Reply to  Marco

Click on Leaders then in the Split category, change it from full season to last calendar year.

Marco
11 years ago
Reply to  Jason

Thank you both.

Kluber compares favorably. Ahead of both in FIP-, in between on xFIP-, walks a little less, K’s a little less, gives up fewer HRs.

Yinka Double Dare
11 years ago

I think I’d flip Bryant and Correa – Correa is a plus SS, Bryant if he gets much bigger is going to be a minus 3B or off the position entirely. He starts from a better defensive opening point than a guy like Jim Thome though, since I don’t remember Thome every being any good at 3rd and Bryant is decent there right now, if Bryant can stick at 3rd even as a minus defender, with that bat he’s still a monster.

teddy
11 years ago

The Harper projection does feel pessimistic i could see him producing around 40 war over the next 5 years making him close to trout but there is a clear difference between 2 and 3

George
11 years ago
Reply to  teddy

ZiPS regresses production though. This is the first year in which Harper has shown the ability to be a hall of fame level, 9+ WAR/season type of player. If this is what Harper is, then the forecast is pessimistic. But ZiPS also needs to take the 3 seasons of very-good-but-not-great production into account when projecting his next 5 seasons.

Trout on the other hand has steadily produced at that level for 3+ year now, which is why there is such a gap between him and everyone else. Even for a fairly conservative projection system like ZiPS, he is still an MVP candidate every year, because he hasn’t been anything other than that for basically his entire career.

Mike Trout ruins AI
11 years ago
Reply to  George

That’s part of the problem. It’s not as if Mike Trout is incapable of looking pedestrian. It’s just no one has ever become and remained a legitimate MVP candidate from the beginning of their career other than Mel Ott and Babe Ruth (not counting Ichiro because talent and age). Even Bonds, Ted Williams, Dimaggio, and Mantle all looked like rookies at one point.

Albert Pujols
11 years ago

Bro, I didn’t get below 5 wins per season until the 11th year of my career.

pitnick
11 years ago

Ted Williams hit .327/.436/.609 his rookie year.

Bookbook
11 years ago

Ted, you looked like a total newby while doing it.

John Perry Farrell
11 years ago

Ted, just admit it.

Phantom Stranger
11 years ago
Reply to  teddy

Harper will end up with more War over the next five years than Trout.

PersonMember since 2024
11 years ago

“In 2019, when Harper has priced himself out of the realistic budgets for 28 of the 30 franchises in baseball,”

I really hope it’s the Dodgers, because I’m tired of all the Yankees hype four years in advance.

Will Trout end up on the team Harper doesn’t sign with, or will the first extension somehow help the Angels be in play for him as well?

lysdexic
11 years ago
Reply to  Person

the lerners are rich… i really hope he stays on the nats

PersonMember since 2024
11 years ago
Reply to  lysdexic

Yes, of course. I went ahead and bought Dave’s premise for the purposes of my comment.

Steve
11 years ago
Reply to  Person

He’ll sign with the Yankees. All the prep profiles of him mentioned his lifelong dream to “play in pinstripes”.

Anon
11 years ago
Reply to  Steve

Harper in pinstripes would be great for baseball… even as a Rays fan.

PersonMember since 2024
11 years ago
Reply to  Steve

How much more than NYY would LAD be able to offer if they wanted to, though? I feel like by that point max money will mean more to him than what he wanted as a kid.

Eltorostrikesagain
11 years ago
Reply to  Person

Bryce hitting home runs on pop ups to the short porch will be amazing.

Angelsjunky
11 years ago

On a tangential note, I’ve never felt comfortable with the whole “market value per WAR” – especially now that it is up to $7-8M per win. I mean I get that it is what the market is actually paying, but what strikes me as off is that no one is thinking, “I’m going to buy a 1 WAR player for $7-8M per year” or “I’m going to buy a 2 WAR player for $15M per year.”

I’m curious if dollar per WAR works more on a curve, with each increasing WAR being higher in value. So it might be something like this, in terms of projected annual WAR average:

1st WAR: $3M
2nd WAR: $4M ($7M total for 2 WAR player)
3rd WAR: $5M ($12M total for 3 WAR player)
4th WAR: $6M ($18M total for 4 WAR player)
5th WAR: $8M ($26M total for 5 WAR player)
6th WAR: $10M ($36M total for a 6 WAR player)

Or something like that. I mean it is very simple: a 4 WAR player is worth more than two 2 WAR players. Teams are playing more for them, they’re worth more on the field (because, as you know, it is easier to replace a 2 WAR player).

I’d be curious as to how that curve might work. My guess is that it flattens out at higher levels, maybe in the $8-10M per WAR range. But a flat dollar value per WAR just doesn’t seem right.

tz
11 years ago
Reply to  Angelsjunky

The theory behind a flat $/projected WAR is sound. Won’t try to argue that here.

I would be curious to see what analysis has been done on the actual contracts paid. It would seem to me that teams might potentially pay less for a low WAR guy if they believe they are good at bargain-hunting (since most bargains would be at the low end of the spectrum). But that’s pure guessing on my part.

Los
11 years ago
Reply to  tz

The analysis done on free agent contracts shows that it is flat on average. Teams don’t pay more because while there is a constraint on roster spots and playing time, there is offsetting risk in terms of injury. If you have 2 3 WAR players, you are less likely to lose 6 wins to one injury.

Doug Lampert
11 years ago
Reply to  Los

Better players get LONGER contracts, so if you think there’s a discount on projected future performance rather than the assumed inflation, then you’d get a curve at the high end.

i.e. since contract length and player quality are tightly correlated, we don’t actually know what a one year deal with a 6 WAR player would look like, and hence don’t actually know what a team would pay for one.

I suspect that at the top end, teams would give short term deals with star players a premium, but not enough of a premium to make a player take one.

There are on the other hand enough one year deals to be fairly sure that teams actually do pay a 1 WAR player roughly half what they pay a 2 WAR player. There’s a lot of noise at that bottom end, but the trend seems to be that teams are actually paying for WAR.

Nor is this all that surprising, even 1 WAR players are in short supply, which means that there’s a major league team that needs one (that’s what short supply means after all). If I have a fifth starter and right fielder each worth 0 WAR, then two 1 WAR players or one 2 WAR player are still similar upgrades.

Replying to Doug Lampert
11 years ago
Reply to  Los

Baseball can look to Derrell Revis as an example of an elite (#1 CB in the league-type) player might get in 1-year deals. Teams seem to discount risk of injury relatively consistently (I now there are large differences between NFL/MLB but the same type people run NFL franchises).

vivalajeter
11 years ago
Reply to  Angelsjunky

I agree that a team isn’t looking to buy a 1 WAR player for that amount. Even if it works out on a $/WAR level, the reality is that a contender should not be looking to sign a 1 WAR player to be an everyday player – and they usually don’t give those dollars to a back-up.

However, the $/WAR numbers are often based on projected WAR, whether it’s Steamer, Zips, or any other source (or retroactively, maybe they’re based on actual WAR). When teams give out the contracts, they’re most likely expecting the player to perform better than the projections. So while all teams might project him, on average, to be 1 WAR – the highest bidder will be the team who expects him to perform the best.

ResultsBias
11 years ago
Reply to  vivalajeter

A very simple exercise is to look at the players who signed 1 year deals in the $5-10 million range.

vivalajeter
11 years ago
Reply to  ResultsBias

That’s not so simple unless you know how the signing team valued the player.

Los
11 years ago
Reply to  ResultsBias

It doesn’t matter what you think you are getting. What matters is what you actually get.

Look at an example of a used car. If I buy a $5,000 used car, the value of the car is determined by how many miles I get out of it. It doesn’t matter how many miles I think I can get. How many miles I think I can get changes how much I will bid for the car. Once the car is sold to me, only the actual miles matter.

vivalajeter
11 years ago
Reply to  ResultsBias

Of course it matters what you think your getting. GMs sign players to deals based on what production they think the player will provide. You can say they overpaid or underpaid based on actual performance, but free agent prices are chosen ahead of time. How else would they say, in February, that “this off-season a win was valued at $8MM”?

Los
11 years ago
Reply to  ResultsBias

You know the price of a win in retrospect. If Ruben extends Ryan Howard again and he turns into Barry Bonds in his late 30s, that will have been a good signing regardless of the fact that he was projected to produce negative WAR by everyone. So you project all FA WAR over the signing period and divide salaries by that for price per win. We can do this in the aggregate and have less error than doing it for individual contracts.

asdf
11 years ago

Trout Almighty.

Nick
11 years ago

Fun and thoughtful list. I guess I’ll have to get over my feeling that Buxton is ranked too low. Correa’s ranking just underscores it for me considering that right before his promotion most prospect experts had Buxton ranked #1 and Correa #2. That Buxton is not deemed a more valuable trading chip than Seager is puzzling. That said, this is mainly my issue. I’m very hopeful that Buxton’s injuries are bad luck and as soon as next year he’s going to be making us remember how special Eric Davis was. Dave, do you get the feeling that the industry as a whole is a little down on Buxton now?

rustydudeMember since 2021
11 years ago
Reply to  Nick

So in other words, you really like Buxton.

jbizzy
11 years ago

Thanks Dave, this series is one of my favourite things you folks have going on here, which is saying a lot as this site is just the best. Keep up the great work!

Kris
11 years ago

I obviously cannot say for a fact that you fail to consider the volatility scores of dan’s five year zips projections, but these lists often read as if a 20 WAR projection with reliability of 0.50 is equal to that of a 20 WAR with a reliability of 0.75. In previous years, Dan’s always given those numbers when he releases the projections, and they actually provide some context around the projections. There has to be an area where reliability crosses years of control in terms of team preference, ie. 5 years of control & 650 MLB PA is worth more than 6 years of control and a lot of scouting reports. There’s just so much more certainty, no?

Andy
11 years ago

These ZiPS projections aren’t proper forecasts, they’re more like extrapolations of current value using an aging curve. The 2020 ZiPS universe may hand out the proper total number of wins, but it won’t account for players who haven’t been drafted or have yet to develop. There are too many being handed out to current players and this approach will lead to a crazy amount of error. There is no way that an honest weighted means projection that aims to minimize error and is back-tested would expect something like Addison Russell producing 5.6 WAR in 2020 (and other non-current-elite players producing as superstars 4-5 years in the future).

There were only 11 players projected by ZiPS to eclipse 5 WAR this season. ZiPS has 11 players already projected to pass 5 WAR in 2018, and a similar amount in 2020 (the values aren’t shown for everyone). I don’t really know what the point of relying on them for this trade value purpose is.

TheGrandslamwichMember since 2026
11 years ago
Reply to  Andy

Do you have a better suggestion for predicting future value?

The Ghost of Dayn Perry
11 years ago
Reply to  Andy

The 5 year projection/extrapolation/whatever is just one of the tools Dave is using to frame the discussion. He’s not just sorting by 5 year WAR and calling it a day.

Any 5 year projection, for anything, will have a “crazy amount of error” when comparing them to the 1 year variety of projections.

Andy
11 years ago

Yes, they will always have a ton of error. But you can remove a lot of that by being increasingly conservative in future years. The 2020 projections should be something like Trout at 8, Harper at 5, a few guys at 3-4 and then most other productive current players and top prospects around 2.5. 5.5 years is a long time.

Walter
11 years ago
Reply to  Andy

I don’t think you can say you’re removing a lot of the error by essentially adding a linear decreasing trend. Some, but hardly a lot.

That’s because the error comes from unpredictable events that have drastic consequences. If Trout steps on a base wrong and get s knee injury, has a lost season to injury and is never the same his 5 year WAR might look like: 0-3-2-1-0. Heck even if he does recover from such an injury, but it takes him from an all-time great to simply an regular MVP contender, it still might be something like 0-3-7-6.5-6. Subtracting .5 or 1 WAR per year as some sort of hedge to the conservative side doesn’t really help you with the not particularly unlikely catastrophic injury issue….

Once you step back an think about the injury risk in sports, the fact that the mean projection is nearly 10 WAR/year for Trout over the next 5 is damn shocking. Heck, last year he only had 8 and the two years before that he was just a little over 10. Seems a little overly optimistic to me.

a eskpert
11 years ago
Reply to  Andy

I don’t think Dan’s that stupid. I wouldn’t imagine his five year projections systematically overestimate player performance, which is what you’re arguing, unless he went for a maximum likelihood rather than an unbiased forecast (which although possible, seems unlikely).

Climate Scientist
11 years ago

SSSHHHHH!

TKDC
11 years ago

I would put Correa much further down, probably just outside the top-10. If the power isn’t real, and the strikeout/walk profile is, you’re looking at a likely 3ish WAR player. Of course when the reasonable downside is an above average player making a quarter of what he’s worth for the next 6 years, you have quite an asset. But I would not trade a superstar on a reasonable contract for the next 3.5 years (such as McCutchen) for that risk profile.

NotByrunBoxton
11 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

I agree. If the strongest attribute Correa has shown thus far (power) is not real and the weakest attribute he has shown thus far (eye/k:bb/plate discipline) is real….then he’s simply a really, really good player destined to have a few excellent years.

Ummm…First place common sense ribbon pour vouz? Am I missing something? Was there a point? Framing risk like that serves what purpose? If you adjusted some projections by scaling back the power numbers and then redistributed Correa or his norm.-dist. outcomes over the next 6 yrs of team control then that would be something meaningful.

I won’t hold my breath. He drew 2 walks today and one look at the minor league numbers suggests that if you want to negatively regress the power you need to positive regress the K:BB/OBP. C’mon man.

Benjamin
11 years ago

I feel like Goldy is a little too high. Rizzo is almost as good and has a much better contract.

TKDC
11 years ago
Reply to  Benjamin

Nothing against Rizzo, who is great and deserves to be in the top 10, but he is not really “almost as good” as Goldschmidt. This is a common misconception.

Benjamin
11 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Is it? Rizzo is younger and projections have them within half a win of one another pretty much every year.

TKDC
11 years ago
Reply to  Benjamin

Well, the contracts aren’t really that far off either, but I probably should have said that Goldschmidt has been a lot better than Rizzo using any time-frame, and since they are both pre-decline, I think that goes a long way. Rizzo has the extra years, but it seems teams don’t usually take very long away value to be as valuable as perhaps they should.

I’d more likely move Rizzo up (probably fifth) than move Goldschmidt down.

DUTCH4007
11 years ago

Wow, gap from Trout To Goldschmidt 23 War for 106 million controlled until 2020, or contracts like Freddie Freeman, King Felix, or Buster Posey. WOW!!

LHPSU
11 years ago

You’re shooting yourself in the foot when you first talk about trade value, then end up simply putting the best player up top, disregarding the contract. You put McCutchen lower because a few other players just offer 80-90% of the production, but also for more years and at a lower cost, but don’t apply the same logic to Mike Trout’s contract?

Yes, Trout’s contract brings massive surplus value. Yes, going from 5 WAR to 6 WAR is more valuable than going from 2 WAR to 3 WAR. Still, the statement that “no player in the game brings a higher return on investment than Trout” just doesn’t seem to be supported by fact. You’re jumping to a pre-determined conclusion that runs contrary to the evidence provided and the spirit of the article.

Since you’re talking about what the market has been paying for wins of late, here’s a $/WAR breakdown of the top 10, arbitrarily assuming a fairly aggressive +5 million/year for arbitration eligible players:

Archer: $1.44m/WAR, 5 years
McCutchen: $2.26m/WAR, 3 years
Machado: est $1.64m/WAR, 3 years
Rizzo: $2.22m/WAR, 6 years
Sale: $2.04m/WAR, 4 years
Correa: est $1.16m/WAR, 6 years
Bryant: est $2.04m/WAR, 6 years
Goldschmidt: $2m/WAR, 4 years
Harper: $1.57m/WAR, 3 years

Trout: $2.86m/WAR, 5 years

Trout costs the most per WAR. By a lot. Yes, $/WAR is overly simplistic and doesn’t account for a lot of factors, but even if teams are more willing to consolidate money into a single player, you can’t simply disregard such a large gap (25% more than the next most “inefficient” contract, McCutchen) and essentially make a claim out of thin air, without even bothering to explain yourself, especially when you yourself are using the same simplistic figure of cost per win on the FA market. You put up a graph showing five-year ZIPS projections for top players. Why don’t you put up a graph that shows a five-year cost-per-win projection, and see whether you can still make the same claim?

Doug Lampert
11 years ago
Reply to  LHPSU

I’ve looked for such a curve on the Free Agent tracker data at the end of free agency, and linear fits pretty well.

But better players get LONGER contracts, so if you think there’s a discount on projected future performance rather than the assumed inflation, then you’d get a curve at the high end.

i.e. since contract length and player quality are tightly correlated, we don’t actually know what a one year deal with a 6 WAR player would look like, and hence don’t actually know what a team would pay for one.

But there are enough one year deals to be fairly sure that teams actually do pay a 1 WAR player roughly half what they pay a 2 WAR player. There’s a lot of noise at that bottom end, but the trend seems to be that teams are actually paying for WAR.

Nor is this all that surprising, even 1 WAR players are in short supply, which means that there’s a major league team that needs one (that’s what short supply means after all). If I have a fifth starter and right fielder each worth 0 WAR, then two 1 WAR players or one 2 WAR player are still similar upgrades.

Doug Lampert
11 years ago
Reply to  Doug Lampert

I have no idea how this ended up here, it was intended as a reply to Angelsjunky’s earlier post. Sorry.

rabbicop2002
11 years ago
Reply to  LHPSU

Dollars per WAR is the wrong metric, because you are privileging rate statistics to the total exclusion of volume statistics. Would you rather have a 5WAR player for $1, or a 10WAR player for $3? It’s entirely obvious that the 10WAR player provides better value, even though his WAR/$ lags. That’s because he provides greater on-field contributions in excess of his salary – not a better proportion of on-field contributions to salary, which flattens the players beyond meaning. (Your argument is roughly analogous to preferring a pitcher with a 1.00 ERA who can only pitch two innings all year to a pitcher with a 2.00 ERA who can pitch two hundred. He may be better per-inning, but the number of innings pitched matter hugely. Same if you’d rather buy a Porsche for two dollars than two Porches for $5.) That’s where I think you go wrong, and where it seems Dave has justified his claim.

TKDC
11 years ago
Reply to  rabbicop2002

Yes, the simplest way to do this correctly is to multiply however much you think a win is worth (say, $7 million) by the Zips forecast, and then subtract the contract commitments. By that measure, Trout is more valuable than almost any other player would be if they were playing the next five years for free.

Seriously, only Machado, Harper, Sale, and McCutchen would have more excess value than Trout if they signed 5 year, $0 contracts.

TKDC
11 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Oops, I should have said “of people on this list.” My guess is Kershaw at least would also top the 27.8 WAR mark the next 5 years.

Walter
11 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Excess value isn’t perfect either. That assumes all teams are happy to fill up the needed WAR to compete at mostly free agent prices, which is not true at all. If you lower the $/WAR measure to something more like say $3/WAR, then Harper is actually better than Trout.

For example, the A’s need to compete at around $100M. Which means they need to get around 40 WAR math says, they can spend about $2.5M/WAR. Trout’s contract actually gives him negative value to a team like that. If in 2018 the do get 9.3 WAR from him and pay him $33.5M, then to compete the A’s need to get ~30 more WAR with now 67M in budget. But instead of having 2.5M/WAR to spend, they have about 2.25M per needed WAR.

Everyone seems to forget that surplus value is greatly effected by the assumed market rate for a win and that most teams don’t actually fill much of their WAR at free agent prices.

TKDC
11 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

I realize that aside from the Yankees and the Dodgers, no team could actually compete by paying fair value for all of their players. However, it seems incredibly silly to just arbitrarily lower the $/WAR figure to represent how much WAR a team would need based on their financial constraints. The easiest reason to see why this is foolish is that your exercise (valuing WAR at $3 million – I assume you meant $3 million, not literally $3) is that it would suggest that Trout has very limited surplus value. This makes no sense. Every team in baseball, all 29 of them, would fall over themselves to send their top 5 prospects, plus their most valuable major league asset (okay, maybe Washington and Arizona would not, also I guess the Cubs might balk at this too). So at least 26 of the 29 other teams would do this in a second.

The thing about WAR is that there are basically two ways to get it. You can draft/trade and develop it, or you can buy it. Money is practically useless for the first way. The only real way to use money to improve your team is to sign free agents. No team would rather have Harper at $15 million than Trout at $30 million because you can’t use that other $15 million to make up for the fact that Trout is 3-3.5 WAR better than Harper. If you are trying to fill CF and RF, you are better off with Trout and a replacement level player than you are with Harper and whatever $15 million can buy you.

I could see a point at which your point might be valid. If Trout is a 15 WAR player, but being paid like a 10 WAR player ($70 million a year), that might be just too much for a small market team. But $30 million is not that level. Pretty much every team has well more than $30 million in salary going to guys with over 6 years of service time (free agent or equivalent). For guys making less than Trout, you don’t get that player and then magically some other below market asset. It’s not like with Harper you get to just assume you are also getting Rendon and because the two of them are more valuable than Trout, and make less combined, that means Harper is better. What you get with Harper is $15 million extra dollars that you can spend on the free agent market. That’s the only place you can spend it, which is why using free agent WAR amounts is the most sensible way of measuring excess value.

Walter
11 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Given Trout’s contract, no, all 29, or 27, teams would not wipe out their farm system’s top 5 prospects. That’s foolishness. It’s hard to more surplus value that 5 good players making the minimum.

BM
11 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

@Walter,

You’re right up to a point. But the real question you have to ask for a team like the A’s that wants to compete at a $100M payroll level is whether or not it’s more likely to find 30 WAR by spending $67M or 40 WAR by spending $100M.

Intuitively I think it would be easier to find 30 WAR, because it’s more likely to get +20 WAR from cheap young players and +10 WAR from free agency than it is to get 40 WAR with +15 WAR from free agency (at about $7M per win), +25 WAR from the young players.

There is some level where the math doesn’t work out anymore, but the Trout contract isn’t quite there yet, IMO.

TKDC
11 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Very few teams have more than one or two prospects that have a greater than 50% chance of providing any significant MLB value. Look at the articles on the KATOH projections through age 28. But anyway, maybe I went a bit too far, but it is true that every team would fall over themselves to find a package of valuable players if the Angels dangled Trout, so using a valuation that suggests he has no surplus value is what is foolish.

Walter
11 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

@BM

The problem I see with your chances of finding 30WAR with 67 vs 40WAR with 100M thing, is it apparently relies on the assumption of all else being equal. However, everything isn’t equal. If you get Trout you supposedly have to give up something to get him, right? TKDC seems to think you have to empty the farm to do so. Once you empty the farm to do so, how are you going to get the 20 WAR from cheap young players? Maybe you have a couple already in the majors at arb levels, but by 2018-20, when that cheap WAR was supposed to be hitting the big leagues, now its not AND you’re paying Trout $33M/year. Then you have to step into the free agent market and pay that $7M/WAR going rate to fill the void more so than you would previously.

Anyway, my real point was that just taking surplus value assuming a constant $7M/WAR going rate is hardly the only way to look at things and its probably not even the best way. At minimum each team is going to have its own $/WAR targets to calculate surplus value from.

@TKDC

Of course if you already assume your conclusion is true any method that contradicts it is going to look foolish. And I’m sure a lot of teams would fall over themselves if asked what they would give up to get Trout. He’s the best player the game has seen since Bonds for f-ck sake. But that looming $33M/year figure is certainly going to make it more difficult for a lot of teams to find the remaining talent needed to compete.

Walter
11 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

@TKDC

I guess I should maybe tackle this assumption:

“What you get with Harper is $15 million extra dollars that you can spend on the free agent market. That’s the only place you can spend it, which is why using free agent WAR amounts is the most sensible way of measuring excess value.”

That’s not true at all. That $15M can go towards your arbitration eligible players. Many teams don’t have the money to even retain a roster full of quality arbitration eligible players. The A’s rebuild was centered around that very reason. Top end players now get 15-20M in arbitration by years 3 or 4 (if super-2). Its pretty easy to have a bunch of guys hit arbitration require raises that total that $15M or even more.

TKDC
11 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Every team spends at least $33 million a year in free agency. The A’s are probably the poorest franchise in MLB and they signed Billy Butler for $10 million a year and still managed to pay the arbitration raises.

In most cases when a team seems to not be able to afford an arbitration raise, the fact of the matter is the player does not really have surplus value over his contract. I’d guess the best example on your side is David Price, who was traded while the Rays were good because he was going to make too much. However, if David Price were one of the greatest pitchers of all time, instead of merely a frontline starter, they would have found a way to keep him. And in that case they actually got something back.

But anyway, back to your point. I don’t see it. No team is that poor.

Walter
11 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

TKDC,

The A’s traded the players due the largest arbitration salaries (Donaldson, Samardzija and Moss) and one of their highest payed players (Cespedes) specifically because they couldn’t pay all of them and keep the franchise healthy in the longer term (together saving about $28M this year). Signing Butler to $10M/year doesn’t happen if they don’t clear that salary first. Getting Clippard or Zobrist doesn’t happen either.

One can easily debate whether or not they made the right choices, but clearly the monetary constraints were forcing some moves. They traded away Donaldson, Samardzija and Moss for young cheaper hauls, that will hopefully pay dividends for years to come. Cespedes was a bit of a salary dump with a dash of a win-now move.

Anyway, I digress some, but its clear they couldn’t have simply continued to pay all those arb salaries. You just have blind assumptions layered on flat out ignorance. $33M/year in free agent signings? Where in the world did you pull that from? Please show your work. Clearly you don’t see my point simply because you refuse to open your eyes and look for it.

TKDC
11 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

I’m not going to show my work for this, or that the rises in the East and sets in the West.

LHPSU
11 years ago
Reply to  rabbicop2002

Yes, I am quite aware of all the problems with $/WAR. But I consider this fair game since the article itself uses the same logic in calculating what Mike Trout should cost on the FA market – in fact, half the argument for Mike Trout in this article is devoted to it.

The gap is not small, and there has to be good justification for ignoring it, which is not provided in the article.

Comprehension
11 years ago
Reply to  LHPSU

Dave absolutely clarifies Trout’s excess value. Just one snippet:

“At that range, if you accept that Trout’s roughly a +9 WAR player going forward, Trout’s free agent price over the next five season should be something like $350 million.”

BM
11 years ago
Reply to  LHPSU

That’s because the reasoning is fairly obvious, as explained above by rabbicop.

Ben
11 years ago
Reply to  LHPSU

On average it costs $7 to feed a person per day.
You have an opportunity to purchase 47 days worth of food for $134 (an average of $2.86 per day).
Or you can purchase 25 days worth of food for $29 (an average of $1.16 per day).
At the grocery store, you go with the second option. 25 days from now you can just buy it again, so that deal clearly makes good economic sense. But that assumes that you know for sure there will be enough food to buy more at the same rate 25 days from now. Remove that assumption, and the first option actually looks way better, because the going rate for food says 47 days should cost you $329, and 25 days should cost you $175. The first option would have saved you $195, and the second only would have saved you $146. The baseball world more closely follows the second model – these superstars on bargain contracts are the exception, not the norm, and many teams go decades without finding anyone on a deal that good.

Although I know I’d get tired of eating trout day after day.

O'KieboomerMember since 2021
11 years ago
Reply to  LHPSU

This is why nobody likes fangraphs commenters. Downvote anyone who disagrees with the groupthink, even if its a well thought out comment. Real nice, reddit rejects.

TKDC
11 years ago
Reply to  O'Kieboomer

downvotes can mean many things. If you think something is wrong, would you rather a reply that says “I think this is wrong” followed by six more identical comments? Yes, downvotes are also used for trolls, rude assholes, spammers, etc., but it can also be a clean version of saying something is incorrect. Nobody is telling this commenter to “go away” or anything like that.

Bookbook
11 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

I do think it would be best to reserve down votes for trolls and unreasonable folks. Down voting as a way of saying “I disagree with you” is far too blunt an instrument.

O'KieboomerMember since 2021
11 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

No, it’s a lazy effort to discourage the type of comments that appeal to most fangraphs commenters, which is a very exculsive group unless you laugh at the same zany authors and be very careful to give accolades and word your criticism in a certain way.

ReuschelCakes
11 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

bad logical reasoning + didn’t take the time to read the article = downvote

easy and elegant solution

BM
11 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

But it’s not well thought out. In order to be a playoff contender (assuming neutral luck and sequencing and all that jazz), a team needs to accrue about +40 WAR. Let’s assume that we’re building one team around Trout and one team around Goldschmidt over the next five years. We’ve got a budget of $150M , because the average MLB player produces wins at a rate of $3.73M per WAR ($3,725,525,022 total MLB payroll/1000 WAR), and buying +40 WAR at that rate would cost $150M.

Let’s now buy up talent until we hit $150M at the going rate for free agents (I’m gonna use $7.5M/WAR as an estimate). Over the next five years, Team Trout is able to accrue +126.2 WAR in this manner. Team Goldschmidt accrues +114.7 WAR (this doesn’t include any contribution from Goldschmidt in Year 5, because he’s not under contract in Year 5).

To average +40 WAR per season, you need to accrue +200 WAR over the sample. This means that Team Trout needs to find +73.8 WAR for “free” through players playing for less than their market value (either young players under team control or old players signed for below-market deals). Team Goldschmidt needs to find +85.3 WAR.

That’s the difference of 2.3 WAR per year, and that’s a lot. Furthermore, Trout wins Year 1 and 2 by a lot, and there are big advantages to obtaining your wins sooner (i.e., better teams make more money, so they can re-invest in better players for future years). Theoretically the extra money from Team Trout’s early advantages could then be used to cover their deficit in Years 3 and 4.

Now consider the fact that Trout does everything well means that his future production is more stable, since he an regress in one area and still be useful in others. If Trout loses his ability to hit tomorrow, he’d still be useful as an above average fielder and baserunner, but if the same happened to Goldschmidt, he’d be out of the league.

So yeah, not thought out too well.

TKDC
11 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Wait, downvoting is a lazy effort to discourage the type of comments that appeal to most fangraphs commenters? That is a very exclusive group unless you laugh at the same zany authors?

I’m downvoting this because it doesn’t even make logical sense, from any point of view.

Also, everyone that posts comments on this site has been downvoted a time or two. I’ve gotten them a lot. If it hurts your feelings, you should consider an investment in thicker skin.

Walter
11 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

@BM,

Related to our points above here, but that 150M seems like a bad number to work with. I have the average MLB team at $124.7M. But there is tremendous skew in the payroll distribution though. Only 7 teams have >150M payrolls and one of those six is at 150.9M. The median payroll is $114.4M. So you’re starting with a naturally, monetarily advantaged team, and asking if they can afford a fairly expensive player and still be competitive. Obviously, that will bias you towards a ‘yes’ answer.

If we use the median team in 2018 and allow for 5% inflation, a team with McCutchen would have 34.1 WAR for 40 WAR, would have 111M left to do it, and thus have 3.2M to spend per WAR. This same median team with Trout would need just 30.7 WAR for 40 WAR total, and have 92.4M left to do it, mean 3.0M to spend per WAR.

I downvoted
11 years ago
Reply to  O'Kieboomer

pudieron89,

I downvoted this comment. Not because LHPSU disagreed with group think, but because of the obviously false premise his argument relies on: “You’re shooting yourself in the foot when you first talk about trade value, then end up simply putting the best player up top, disregarding the contract.” There is no way I can read Dave’s passage and arrive to that same premise. How did LHPSU even come up with that?

And now I’ve downvoted you, for the same reason I downvoted LHPSU. The false assumption that I downvoted LHPSU because he disagreed with group think. And, the false conclusion that I’m a reddit reject.

I don’t even reddit.

chuckb
11 years ago
Reply to  I downvoted

This is exactly why I down voted the comment. That statement was wholly disingenuous and demonstrated that he either didn’t read the write – up or elected to ignore it.

I tend to reserve downvotes for those whose comments are needlessly caustic. It has nothing to do with “opposing groupthink.” Too many here have no problem with being hostile either to the authors or other commenters, and those deserve down votes.

In my view, LHPSU deserved downvotes not only for stating a blatant falsehood but for doing it so sarcastically.

Yep
11 years ago
Reply to  O'Kieboomer

Yep

Ben
11 years ago
Reply to  LHPSU

Teams are not out to put together a team with the most efficient contracts. They are out to put together a team of the most productive players. Player productivity is what leads to winning, which is what leads to revenue. So while you are right that Trout’s contract is 25% less efficient than McCutchen’s, it doesn’t matter if he is going to give you 200% of the production McCutchen will over the same time frame.

Would you care if your team was making great bang for it’s buck, if the team sucked?

Nick
11 years ago

Question for Dave: How much guaranteed money would Trout have to be owed (let’s say same length of deal) in order to not be #1 on this list?

Timothy
11 years ago

Why wasn’t George Springer on this list at all (not the top 10, but in general)? He’s controlled through 2020 and is on pace to post about +4.0 WAR this year. His K% isn’t too out of hand (26%). Is it the injury, Super Two combo? I guess so.

gust of wind
11 years ago
Reply to  Timothy

Dude cant make contact..like at all.

Rob MooreMember since 2025
11 years ago
Reply to  Timothy

Springer seems like an oversight to me too – very surprised he wasn’t at least mentioned in the introduction. He strikes me as very similar to Joc, actually – at the plate, on the bases and in the field. There is a health question, but it’s not an extreme one.

Anon21
11 years ago

Fangraphs should really have a “report comment” button. And this guy should seriously find something better to do with his time.

Phillies113
11 years ago

Great list. I still can’t believe a once-in-a-generation talent grew up, literally, 20 minutes from me. Way to represent South Jersey, Trout!

Baseball Guy
11 years ago

Even tied for #2, I feel like Goldschmidt is getting under-appreciated. Best hitter in baseball. And cheap deal. If he were #1 I wouldn’t argue.

cthabeerman
11 years ago
Reply to  Baseball Guy

Maybe you’re under-appreciating defensive value.

Also, Goldschmidt has never been the best hitter in the game. Not this year, not last year, not 2013…not 2013-15 combined.

-C

dom
11 years ago

Machado is arguably the best defensive 3B I’ve ever seen, but given how few good shortstops there are today, would it ever make sense to shift him back over there? Has that ship sailed? Is plus defense from shortstop more valuable than plus-plus at third? Is there a break even point in runs saved at third that equals the positional adjustment value of shortstop?

cthabeerman
11 years ago
Reply to  dom

The positional adjustment difference between the two is essentially 5 runs/1,350 innings, so if he’s more than five runs better at third than he is at short, he should stick w/ third.

-C

ReuschelCakes
11 years ago
Reply to  dom

C: you answered what Machado should do (if he were trying to maximize his personal WAR) and not what the Orioles should do….

I think the question is basically: if there is a supply constraint at SS and the theoretical adjustment between 3B-SS is too low for the current environment (or the practical realities of BAL system), should the Orioles move Machado to SS and allow for a greater future bat at 3B versus SS….

WhereAreMyPants
11 years ago
Reply to  ReuschelCakes

The Orioles currently have a gold glover at short, so the defensive delta probably isn’t as big as it could be.

Yes, Hardy is definitely on the downside, but for now, given Manny’s knees, it certainly makes sense to keep him at third.

Also, the only real offensive “prospect” the O’s have for 3b is probably Schoop, assuming he grows out of 2b. Maybe in a couple years, after Hardy craters, and Schoop fixes his contact problems, the O’s can slide Machado over, but for now, with current talent, it would be nuts.

Rational Fan
11 years ago

Sale behind Bryant is absolutely hilarious.

Cameron doesn’t have Quintana in the top 30 – despite a top 10 WAR with a very team friendly deal. Now he puts Sale 6th behind someone like Kris Bryant.

hahahaaha, NO TEAM in baseball would trade Chris Sale for Bryant.

PersonMember since 2024
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

And I was told last year that “you biased prick” jokes were old.

Rational Fan
11 years ago
Reply to  Person

What is bias about what I said?

Quintana has a top 12 WAR, for a starter, since he entered the league. He’s young, and under team control for years with a very team friendly deal. His FIP has been top 12 as well.

Sale has the best WAR, through his first 800 innings, of any active pitcher – better than Kershaw. I am not looking at my database at the moment, but if I recall he has the best WAR through his first 800 innings of any starter the past 50 years. He’s under team control through 2019, with two incredible team options the final two years.

If you think Kris Bryant – or even Trout with his 200 million dollar contract – hold the same value you would be mightily mistaken.

Rational Fan
11 years ago
Reply to  Person

If this will make you fell better:

Bryant ahead of Correa is absolutely laughable as well. Correa been better in his limited time, plays a premium defensive position at a high level, and is a ++ baserunner.

Jason B
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

If this will make you feel better – yes, the White Sox are great. Outstanding. Stupendous. Probably 162-0 next year.

Or at least like 70-0 when Sale and Quintana pitch.

Better?

Chris
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

I do not believe the Cubs would trade Bryant for Sale. Despite Sale’s dominance and the fact that the contending Cubs are hitting rich and pitching poor on the backside of the rotation (relatively), the general risk of pitchers (especially one with Sale’s delivery) and Bryant’s superior marketability would keep Bryant on the North Side. Alternatively, I believe the White Sox would take that trade as Bryant would be a much needed face of the franchise *with two more years of team control* – which they would desperately want as they are a couple of years away from contending. So: I disagree entirely in general and in specific on White Sox-Cubs.

Rational Fan
11 years ago
Reply to  Chris

The White Sox could name any two prospects they want, in any organization, and get them for Sale.

The Dodgers probably wouldn’t even trade Seager straight up for Bryant; none the less put Urias in the deal.

Also, can we stop with the delivery risk of Sale. You realize he’s nearly at 1000 innings without an injury, right? You realize once you reach this level of innings work, the chances of a terrible injury goes down significantly; up until a certain point of aging, of course.

Rational Fan
11 years ago
Reply to  Chris

If you think the White Sox would trade the best pitcher in baseball for Kris Bryant you are a Cubs fan; no other answer.

What marketability? Sale about as marketable as it gets in baseball pal.

If Sale and Bryant were both made available, little to no doubt who would generate a higher return.

chuckb
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

The White Sox don’t control the best pitcher in baseball so, you’re right, they won’t trade him for Bryant or anyone else.

BTW, it’s comments like these that lead people to state that you’re biased.

busy scouting t-ball
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

Would and should are two different things.

Inigo Montoya
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

I don’t think “rational” means what you think it means.

Rational Fan
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

Considering his contract, he absolutely is the best in baseball. Kershaw and him have been eerily similar the past 16 months and sale pitches in one of the best hitters parks in baseball: in the AL as well.

Kershaw still gets the nod from me, but given their contracts sale is certainly the most valuable arm. Given how few times guys like Sale and kershaw come around, I’ll go ahead and pass on taking troy glaus(Kris Bryant) over them.

Eminor3rd
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

I think Dave has a defensible claim that position players are safer bets than pitchers, in general, and so it makes sense that a less risky asset would be more valuable if all else is equal.

Steve
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

aren’t you the one at the beginning of the year that said Bryant’s 4.3 projected WAR was “embarassing”?

Rational Fan
11 years ago
Reply to  Steve

Uh, no.

There are quite a few people that may use this name; as is quite apparent in this thread.

Oxymoron Fan
11 years ago

lol

Matt
11 years ago

Thanks for the fun reading over the All-Star break, Dave. I love this series every year so while it is a lot of work for you, know that it is very much appreciated.

The link you provided in Trout’s write-up showing players’ WAR up to their age 23 season . . . can you possibly explain how good Andruw Jones’ defense was early in his career? I mean, it is just an absurd number – more than twice as high as Johnny Bench and Cal Ripken.

tz
11 years ago
Reply to  Matt

Juan Lagares’ best defensive season was +24 runs.

Over his 11 years with Atlanta, Andruw Jones averaged +26 runs above average defensively.

tz
11 years ago
Reply to  tz

Also, the defensive values in that link include the positional adjustment, which is greatest for shortstops and catchers.

After Jones, the 8 next-highest defensive values belong to either shortstops or catchers, until we reach Manny Machado at #10. The next outfielder is Al Kaline at #11.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2015&month=0&season1=1871&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=14,23&filter=&players=0&sort=20,d

vivalajeter
11 years ago
Reply to  tz

Jones was phenomenal, but I should point out that Lagares has only played about 3/4 of the season over the last couple years, maxing out at 121 games. His UZR/150 is much higher, and he rates better with DRS.

TKDC
11 years ago
Reply to  Matt
tz
11 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Inside Edge gave that one a minus 40% chance of being made lol.

Future HOF Voter
11 years ago
Reply to  Matt

What’s this “defense” you’re talking about?

If you’re talking about what Mazeroski and Brooks Robinson used to do, I have the official BBWA list of guys who did that, and I don’t see Jones’ name.

me
11 years ago

Sale seems like he is better than kershaw in the clutch. id take him before kershaw with kershaws contract. i think archer is having a career year, and like paul over bryce. minor nitpicks, great series.

Jason B
11 years ago
Reply to  me

Well, I think that’s why Sale is listed over Kershaw here. Both stellar pitchers, but Sale’s is a massive bargain; Kershaw’s, not so much.

Rational Fan
11 years ago

“A friend in the game — who has seen plenty of Bryant this year — told me a month ago that his comparison for Bryant was Mike Schmidt.”

Absolutely hilarious.

Schmidt one of the greatest defensive third baseman in the history of the game. Bryant is on his way out to Right Field.

Rational Fan
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

I’m so butt hurt! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!

Rational Fan
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

Having never seen prime Mike Schmidt play, I am truly qualified to scout the stat sheet and writer sentiment to deem that the 6 war rookie third baseman is highly overrated. He, after all, does not play on the White Sox and therefore does not have the will to win.

Rational Fan
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

Who said he was overrated?

So saying he’s not Mike Schmidt means he’s overrated? OK.

I try to keep things Rational; unlike you, apparently.

a eskpert
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

“I try to keep things rational.” Do you even know what that means in any sense of the term? Economic? Logical? Psychological? I’m willing to bet you don’t.
Moreover, you might provide evidence for your assertions like: “Bryant is on his way out to Right Field.” Are you even sure that the comparison between Schmidt and Bryant was based on their defensive skills? The wording in the article makes it sound to me like it was more about the offensive skill sets of each.
As it is, you come off as a troll.

Rational Fan
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

Well given that a lot of schmidts value is tied to his gold glove at an important defensive position, I’d say yes… Comparing him to Schmidt would imply that he has staying power at third when he does not.

chuckb
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

No doubt your view is more informed, and of course less biased, than Dave’s friend in the game.

I’m sure you’re right.

Jason B
11 years ago
Reply to  chuckb

But he is *RATIONAL* chucky.

(And also a big, big Sox fan. Sale-Quintana 1-2 BABY!!!1!one)

Jim
11 years ago

I lose a little faith in Zips when their five year projections don’t put Goldschmidt in the top 5.

Jason B
11 years ago
Reply to  Jim

That’s a good reason to discard a projection system, when it doesn’t match your views about one particular player.

MDLMember since 2021
11 years ago

Where can I find these 2016 & 5-year ZIPS projections, anyway?

Hank G.
11 years ago

We’ve gone from pulling out Mickey Mantle comparisons to having to admit that that might not be a fair comparison to Trout.

Mickey Mantle could have been as good as Trout if not for the knee injury and the drinking problem.

Iglooston
11 years ago
Reply to  Hank G.

And I could have been as good as Babe Ruth if I was stronger, more athletic, had better hand-eye coordination, and practiced baseball for thousands of hours more.

Hank G.
11 years ago
Reply to  Iglooston

Right, but Mantle was an inner-circle Hall of Famer even with his demons. You, what, tore up Little League?

a eskpert
11 years ago
Reply to  Hank G.

The point is that that’s a part of who he was as a player. Mickey Mantle that doesn’t drink isn’t Mickey Mantle, it’s someone else. Babe Ruth that eats vegetables and runs isn’t Babe Ruth.

Nolan Ryan
11 years ago
Reply to  Hank G.

I could have struck out 10,000 if I had Greg Maddux’s command.

TR
11 years ago
Reply to  Hank G.

If a frog had wings, he wouldn’t bump his butt

JLRC
11 years ago

I don’t see anyone displacing Trout at #1 for a long time. Even when his marginal value (in terms of WAR) vastly exceeds everyone else, it’s hard to put a dollar amount on what he is. It’s hard to call these things for a player who is maybe just a 1/4 into his career, but we could very well be seeing the best player of all time here.

SandyK
11 years ago
Reply to  JLRC

I don’t think anyone will ever be better than Babe Ruth before the end of human life on Earth. But Trout will likely demolish everyone else, except maybe Barry Bonds.

jj
11 years ago

The comment about Machado and he “has turned into a monster at the plate” seems a bit premature especially after reading the quote on Salvador Perez “Perez serves as a nice reminder of our need to not overreact too much to the most recent half season of performance”… I don’t know maybe he has made the huge leap, but I’m just not sure there is enough evidence at this point. If he is a 120 RC+ is that still enough to give him this value?

Paul Kasiński
11 years ago

I think the one guy whose absence here really surprises me is Marcus Stroman (not in the top 10, obviously, but the list as a whole). With as good as he’s already proven himself, and as young as he is with as many years of control left as he has, I was certain he’d make it. And the injury isn’t arm-related, so I don’t it’s that much of a long-term concern.

kswissreject
11 years ago
Reply to  Paul Kasiński

I think losing an entire year to the knee injury hurts his value. As it stands, just one year pre-arb and then the 3 arb years. To be fair, those should not be huge awards due to losing 2015. In addition, last year, he didn’t pitch a full year – he was great in the 140ish innings, but had he shown he could make it a full year, I’m sure his value would be higher.

I don’t know if it played a part in it, but there’s also the overall industry bias against short pitchers, which may or may not play into perceptions, performance be damned.

odditie
11 years ago

2010-2015 WAR leaders

1. M. Trout 35 WAR in 581 games
2. M. Cabrera 34.8 WAR in 856 games

Not bad for someone who’s debut was in 2011 with a 40 game cup of coffee.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2015&month=0&season1=2010&ind=0&team=&rost=&age=&filter=&players=

Miles
11 years ago

Trout may be more like Willie Mays than Mickey Mantle. Think speed and defense. Trout owns the center field warning track in a way no one else can even imaging.

It’s pretty freaking amazing that we, as fans and, more generally, as envious and awestruck human beings, have the chance to see this kind of athletic performance on a nightly basis.

That’s why I’m always reaching for the historical comp. For me, the best thing about sports is appreciating and marveling at feats of athleticism. And some of those feats will only be seen once in a lifetime. Mike Trout is that kind of player. Lots of people thought there would never be another Willie Mays or Mickey Mantle, but here we are. Still waiting on another George Herman Ruth, though.

tz
11 years ago
Reply to  Miles

Here are WAR graphs comparing Trout with four first-ballot Hall of Famers

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphsw.aspx?players=1008082,1008315,1011327,10155,1010557

Hank G.
11 years ago
Reply to  tz

I added Ted Williams, since he is the all-time leader in WAR through age 23. Trout fits comfortably in there with all of them, although of course Babe Ruth got a late start due to his dead end detour into pitching.

Warning About Hyperbole
11 years ago
Reply to  Miles

Mike Trout isn’t the best defensive CF in the game today. He wasn’t last year either. Or in 2013.

Miles
11 years ago

But he’s really freaking good and that’s fun to watch.

Paul Kasiński
11 years ago
Reply to  Miles

In his rookie year Mays was probably the better comparison, but Trout has slowed considerably since then. He no longer steals even 20 bases a year, nevermind 50, and his defence is avergae at best, but on the other hand he already draws more walks than Mays ever did. He’s become definitely more in Mantle’s mould, except for the fact that he’s as good as Mays – perhaps even better.

Hank G.
11 years ago
Reply to  Miles

To each is own, but the Mantle comparison resonates more with me. Both Trout and Mantle have/had blinding speed, and were very good but not great center fielders. Neither had the arm that Mays had.

Nick
11 years ago

top 2 guys and they’re the guys you expect will be winning the MVP awards. Harper and Trout, baseballs 2 young superstars. Can’t wait to watch their careers unfold

That Guy
11 years ago
Reply to  Nick

What are you waiting for then? Open your eyes dude, it’s happening.

Nick
11 years ago

Dave – I am curious how would you tier these rankings? You mentioned that 31 through Honorable mention are very close so how many tiers and what numbers start each? I’d assume Trout has a tier to himself.

Darkstone42
11 years ago

Well, Mike Trout is pretty good, isn’t he?

Bob Loblaw
11 years ago

How will what seems like the complete disappearance of stolen bases affect Mike Trout’s value and WAR projections?

Hank G.
11 years ago
Reply to  Bob Loblaw

Very little.

Spunky
11 years ago

It must have been pretty satisfying writing that Harper column, after we’ve all seen him break out in a way Dave had predicted all along. I would have spent an entire paragraph patting myself on the back. But not you, Dave. Always professional.

A bang-up job, as always, Dave. Thanks (again) for the great read.

Eric M. Van
11 years ago

What’s interesting is that if you take ZiPS as truth, and calculate projected WAR under team control, the top 4 has to be Trout, Correa, Bryant, and Betts. Uncertainty over the futures of the last 3 drives them down the list.

ZiPS clearly likes Betts better than Dave does; Bryant projects to 29.9 controlled WAR (including this year’s second half, and the sixth year, at the 5-year rate) and Betts 29.4, and Betts has the longer MLB track record, but Bryant is 4th and Betts 11th.

So another fundamental question here is: at what point do MLB results trump scouting pedigree? Goldschmidt no longer gets any penalty for his lack of the latter, but obviously Betts is still getting dinged significantly.

tz
11 years ago
Reply to  Eric M. Van

Two theories:

1. There’s a possible concern that Betts’s bat is as good as it’s going to get, and too much of his value is tied up in speed and defense (I don’t buy this personally)

2. There’s also a chance that the Red Sox brass will play musical chairs once again with all their high-$ position players, and they shuffle Betts to LF and/or 3B and/or whatever, and then when he hits a slump they throw someone else out there. Not likely, but I wouldn’t put it past them.

Joe
11 years ago

This is a joke that Mookie Betts isn’t #1. You’ll all see in a few years.

Ben
11 years ago

I decided to go a little further in depth to try to quantify what each team owns and what it might be worth to them. Similar to how Dave calculated Trout’s surplus value, I’ve calculated the surplus value for each player on this list, by calculating how much each player should be worth over the next five years (2016-2020), or whatever portion of those five years they are owned for, and then subtracting the actual amount they’ll earn over that time.

Methodology:
To determine how much each player is worth, I took their projected WAR value for the next five years only (less if they’re controlled for fewer seasons) and multiplied it by the standard $7 million per win. This amount is shown as the first number in parentheses after each player’s name.
To determine how much each player is going to earn, I had to do a little guesswork when it came to arbitration. As per a 2013 BP article entitled “The Cost of a Cost Controlled Win,” I estimated that players receive about $2 million per WAR in arbitration. For pre-arb years, I assumed the player would earn the league minimum $0.5 million. The amount the player is actually earning is shown in parentheses subtracted from the player’s projected worth.
The surplus value (projected worth minus projected salary) is shown after the player’s name in front of the parentheses with a dollar sign in front of it.
The players are organized by team, and the total surplus value the organization gains from these players is listed as a total $ amount, in millions, before the players’ names.
I know this is a little late getting posted and I don’t know how many people are still reading these comments, but hopefully someone will read and appreciate this so it doesn’t completely go to waste! Is there somewhere else on fangraphs that I could post something like this?

Orioles: $100.5 million. Machado $100.5 million ($140.7 million projected value minus $40.2 million projected salary)?Red Sox: $239 million. Betts $153.1 (186.9 – 33.8) / Bogaerts $85.9 (110.6 – 24.7)
Yankees: 0
Rays: $116.05 million. Archer $116.05 ($146.3 – $30.25)
Blue Jays: $76.6 million. Donaldson $76.6 ($123.2 – $46.6*)

White Sox: $245.5 million. Sale $117.95(166.6 – 48.65) / Abreu $35.4 (79.8 – 44**) / Quintana 92.15 (134.4 – 42.25)
Indians: $327.65 million. Kluber $105 (154-49) / Carrasco $68.9 (106.4 – 37.5) / Gomes 94.95 (123.9 – 28.95) / Kipnis $58.8 (118.3 – 59.5)
Tigers: 0
Royals: $174.35 million. Perez $80.55 (97.3 – 16.75) / Ventura $93.8 (126 – 32.2)
Twins: $105.2 million. Buxton $105.2 (122.5 – 17.3)

Astros: $288.9 million. Correa $153.6 (178.5 – 24.9) / Altuve $80.3 (100.8 – 20.5) / Keuchel $55 (77 – 22)
Angels: $194.75 million. Trout $194.75 (329 – 134.25)
Athletics: $103.4 million. Gray $103.4 (132.3 – 28.9)
Mariners: $47.2 million. Hernandez $47.2 (151.2 – 104)
Rangers: 0

Braves: $92.7 million. Simmons $69.5 (122.5 – 53) / Freeman $23.2 (116.2 – 93)
Marlins: $248.5 million. Stanton $82.9 (183.4 – 100.5) / Fernandez $61.5 (86.1 – 24.6) / Yelich $104.1 (137.9 – 33.8)
Mets: $265 million. deGrom $106.6 (128.8 – 22.2) / Syndergaard $96 (117.6 – 21.6) / Harvey $62.5 (87.5 – 25)
Phillies: 0
Nationals: $205.1 million. Harper $96.2 (133.7 – 37.5*) / Rendon $108.9 (138.6 – 29.7)

Cubs: $420 million. Bryant $117.5 (146.3 – 28.8) / Rizzo $113.7 (158.2 – 44.5) / Russell $122.2 (154 – 31.8) / Soler $66.6 (88.2 – 21.6**)
Reds: $41.1 million. Frazier 41.1 (60.9 – 19.8*)
Brewers: $48.85 million. Lucroy $48.85 (58.1 – 9.25)
Pirates: $266.9 million. McCutchen $85.2 (126.7 – 41.5) / Cole $93.7 (120.4 – 26.7) / Marte $88 (126 – 38)
Cardinals: $151.7 million. Wacha $77.8 (100.1 – 22.3) / Martinez $73.9 (96.6 – 22.7)

Diamondbacks: $100 million. Goldschmidt $100 (140 – 40)
Rockies: $96.5 million. Arenado $96.5 (135.1 – 38.6)
Dodgers: $341.5 million. Pederson $125.2 (152.6 – 27.4) / Puig $93.7 (126 – 32.3**) / Seager $122.6 (142.1 – 19.5) /
Padres: 0
Giants: $245.95 million. Bumgarner $80.75 (126 – 45.25) / Posey $82 (187.6 – 105.6) / Panik $83.2 (102.2 – 19)

*In the cases of Donaldson, Harper, and Frazier, since salaries needed to be calculated for later Arb seasons only, I’ve increased the projected arbitration amount to $3 million per WAR during Arb3 and Arb4 seasons while retaining the $2 million value for Arb2 seasons.

**In the cases of Soler and Puig I’ve assumed they will opt into arbitration, as they stand to earn more money that way given these projections. I have not done this in the case of Abreu, as he would earn less by that calculation.

MDLMember since 2021
11 years ago
Reply to  Ben

Is there somewhere else on fangraphs that I could post something like this?

Yes! http://www.fangraphs.com/community/

kpwest
11 years ago

As a Padres fan I don’t think Rizzo’s trade value is all that high, I mean all we were able to get for him was Andrew Cashner.

*Gunshot*

Jack
11 years ago

I’m confused. Harper has 6.5 WAR in mid July. Are we expecting him to have his career year as a 22 year old and not match this years production? We’re talking about a likely 10 WAR year. Seems like a very low ZIPS projection for 5 years. I would comfortably pencil the guy in for like 37-38 WAR. Not quite comparable to trout. But for the financial value, it would make him close for trade value.