2016 Trade Value: #11 to #20
| 2016 TRADE VALUE SERIES Introduction Hon. Mention #41-50 #31-40 #21-30 |
And now we’re really getting into the best players in the game. This group is made up of some of the elite performers in the sport, and the quality of short-term value is nearly as high as it is with the top 10. The difference for most of these guys is price and control years; many of them are into their arbitration years and are close enough to free agency that they don’t bring a lot of long-term value. But their short-term impacts are still large enough to put them among the most valuable assets in baseball.
As a reminder for those who haven’t read the first three parts of the series, we’ve significantly upgraded the way we’re presenting the information this year. On the individual player tables, the Guaranteed Dollars and Team Control WAR — which are provided by Dan Szymborski’s ZIPS projections — rows give you an idea of what kind of production and costs a team could expect going forward, though to be clear, we’re not counting the rest of 2016 in those numbers; they’re just included for reference of what a player’s future status looks like. And as a reminder, we’re not ranking players based on those projections, as teams aren’t going to just make trades based on the ZIPS forecasts. That said, they’re a useful tool to provide some context about what a player might do for the next few years.
With those items covered, let’s get to the guys who just missed making the top 10.
| Team Control WAR Total | +13.4 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2019 |
| Previous Rank | #33 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2017 | 24 | +4.2 | Arb1 |
| 2018 | 25 | +4.6 | Arb2 |
| 2019 | 26 | +4.6 | Arb3 |
After a slow start to his career, Bogaerts has blossomed into the star he was expected to become, albeit in a different way than anticipated; he still hasn’t quite developed the power he was projected to have, but has made up for it by becoming a high-average hitter and a better defender than expected. Still just 23, there’s room for him to add more power and become an even more complete hitter, though because he’s already used up his pre-arbitration years, that kind of power spike might not benefit the Red Sox a great deal; at this point, it might only serve to drive up the cost of an extension beyond the point of reason. With Bogaerts headed for arbitration this winter and free agency after 2019, he doesn’t have quite enough long-term value to rank as highly as one might expect from a 23-tyear-old shortstop who can hit like Bogaerts can, but there’s enough short-term value for him to still be among baseball’s best trade chips.
| Five-Year WAR | +21.5 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | $110.0 M |
| Team Control Through | 2022 |
| Previous Rank | #18 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2017 | 30 | +5.6 | $21.4 M |
| 2018 | 31 | +4.9 | $21.4 M |
| 2019 | 32 | +4.2 | $21.4 M |
| 2020 | 33 | +3.7 | $21.4 M |
| 2021 | 34 | +3.1 | $21.4 M |
At 29, Posey is starting to get a little old for a catcher. At $21 million a year for the next five years, he’s no longer the kind of guy in whom every team in baseball would be interested. But if you’re looking for a reason why the Giants are winning yet again, look no further than their catcher, baseball’s overlooked superstar. Posey remains a high-end performer on his way to a third straight +6 WAR season, even without any credit for framing, at which he’s among the best in the game. Twenty-one million a year for what Posey provides is still a huge bargain, and while he’s likely headed for his decline in the next few years, he’s reached a high enough level that a declining Posey will still be a pretty great player. The short-term value of an underpaid superstar, combined with at least five years of control at below-market rates, make Posey a great value even as he ages.
| Five-Year WAR | +15.2 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | $33.0 M |
| Team Control Through | 2021 |
| Previous Rank | #19 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2017 | 31 | +3.9 | $7.5 M |
| 2018 | 32 | +3.3 | $10.5 M |
| 2019 | 33 | +3.1 | $13.0 M |
| 2020 | 34 | +2.6 | $13.5 M |
| 2021 | 35 | +2.3 | $14.0 M |
Roughly 800 innings into his career, it’s becoming pretty clear that Kluber is a guy who should be expected to underperform his peripherals, as his career 3.42 ERA is nearly half a run higher than his career 2.96 FIP. So, he’s not quite as good as a FIP-based WAR would suggest, but even adjusting for that, he still remains one of the better pitchers in baseball, though perhaps getting there in a somewhat frustrating manner. With a contract that pays him back-end-starter money for the next three years, then includes a couple of team options in case he ages particularly well, Kluber offers some long-term upside without any real risk, though his age makes it less likely that he’ll be around to rack up value in those option years. Kluber might not quite be an ace, but he’s a very good pitcher signed to the kind of contract that teams love, and in this market, demand for his services would be intense if the Indians put him on the blocks.
| Team Control WAR Total | +12.4 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2018 |
| Previous Rank | #23 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2017 | 24 | +6.1 | Arb2 |
| 2018 | 25 | +6.3 | Arb3 |
Speaking of true aces, it doesn’t get much better than Jose Fernandez. The Marlins’ #1 starter has come from back Tommy John surgery as dominant as ever, throwing an unhittable slider to go with his high-octane fastball. He would probably be considered the best pitcher alive if it weren’t for that Clayton Kershaw guy over in Los Angeles. But while Fernandez remains an elite pitcher and is just 23 years of age, he really would be a short-term play for any team picking him up, as the Marlins’ decision to promote him for Opening Day in 2013 means that he’s only got two arbitration years remaining after this season, and then he’ll hit free agency after the 2018 season. He’s also never started more than 28 games in a season, so his durability remains an unknown. But even with the risk and his proximity to free agency, the level of performance is so high that contenders would be beating down the Marlins door to add him to the front of their rotation.
| Team Control WAR Total | +13.8 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | $13.0 M |
| Team Control Through | 2019 |
| Previous Rank | #16 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2017 | 27 | +4.8 | $11.5 M |
| 2018 | 28 | +4.7 | $12.0 M |
| 2019 | 29 | +4.3 | $12.0 M |
The other reason the Giants just keep winning, Bumgarner is in the midst of a career year, and has cemented himself as one of the most consistent frontline pitchers in baseball at this point. He’s headed for a sixth straight season with 200-plus innings pitched, and thanks to his durable excellence — and his ability to put runs on the board for his team with his bat — he gives the Giants a significant advantage every five days. His early-career extension has just one guaranteed year left, but the two option years are clearly going to be picked up at this point, so Bumgarner is owed roughly $35 million over the next three seasons, or what we call J.A. Happ money these days. It’s basically impossible to imagine the Giants trading Bumgarner, as he’s simply too valuable for them to replace.
| Team Control WAR Total | +17.1 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | $12.0 M |
| Team Control Through | 2019 |
| Previous Rank | #6 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2017 | 28 | +6.1 | $12.0 M |
| 2018 | 29 | +5.7 | $12.5 M |
| 2019 | 30 | +5.3 | $13.5 M |
Among players in this tier, Sale probably remains the most likely to be traded at some point, as the White Sox’ second attempt to go for it is only going a little bit better than their first one. They’re in too strong of a position to sell at this deadline, but if the team doesn’t manage to get off to a strong start next year, I wouldn’t be surprised if Sale found himself on the trade blocks next summer. The White Sox ace remains one of the best pitchers in baseball, even as he transitions towards a pitch-to-contact approach to try and save some wear and tear on his arm. Like Bumgarner, he’s got one guaranteed year and two team option years left on his deal — option years that are a near certainty to be exercised at this point — and is wildly underpaid relative to his on-field performance. If the White Sox ever do decide to move Sale, assuming he’s still pitching at this level, they’ll get a monstrous return.
| Team Control WAR Total | +12.0 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | $17.0 M |
| Team Control Through | 2018 |
| Previous Rank | #17 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2017 | 31 | +6.4 | $17.0 M |
| 2018 | 32 | +5.6 | Arb4 |
The reigning AL MVP is making a run at a second straight trophy — remarkably putting up an even better year than he did a season ago — and has established himself as one of baseball’s premier all-around players. In terms of short-term value, few players would improve a team today more than Donaldson, which is why the Blue Jays won’t give him up; he’s the reason they’re contenders. But as a 30-year-old with just two years left before he hits free agency — and that 2018 salary could break arbitration records — Donaldson doesn’t offer much in the way of long-term value, and while he’s going to be making a fraction of his market value, he won’t exactly be cheap. But given his high level of current performance, the Blue Jays would get far more for him than they gave up to get him, even after using up half of the controllable years they acquired; the Donaldson deal may very well go down as the best trade in Blue Jays history.
| Team Control WAR Total | +15.9 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | $4.5 M |
| Team Control Through | 2019 |
| Previous Rank | #35 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2017 | 27 | +5.5 | $4.5 M |
| 2018 | 28 | +5.3 | $6.0 M |
| 2019 | 29 | +5.1 | $6.5 M |
A walking lesson in the limits of our ability to know a player’s limitations, Altuve has turned himself into one of the game’s best hitters, adding power to his already elite contact skills, and is now an offensive monster while playing an up-the-middle position. For a 26-year-old who is scheduled to make a grand total of $17 million from 2017 through 2019, Altuve’s combination of performance and price is hard to beat. And remarkably, he’s still the Astros’ second-most-valuable middle infielder, at least in terms of trade value. There’s a reason Houston is expected to be good for a while.
| Five-Year WAR | +24.1 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2021 |
| Previous Rank | #22 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2017 | 24 | +4.9 | Pre-Arb |
| 2018 | 25 | +5.1 | Arb1 |
| 2019 | 26 | +4.7 | Arb2 |
| 2020 | 27 | +4.8 | Arb3 |
| 2021 | 28 | +4.6 | Arb4 |
Before leaving his final start before the All-Star break with arm soreness, Syndergaard ranked in the top 10, and I’ll freely admit that I don’t really know what to do with him now. One of my friends in the game called his ranking “impossible,” as there is just so much unknown at this point. On the one hand, you could argue that teams simply wouldn’t trade for Syndergaard today — not until they see him take the mound again and know he’s okay — so maybe he doesn’t belong on the list at all. On the other hand, he says he’s fine, the Mets have scheduled him to pitch next week, and when healthy, Syndergaard is a dominating ace who is nowhere near free agency or even significant arbitration paydays. So, yeah, the upside here is too high to ignore, but the risks are also substantial, and placing Syndergaard on this list is basically dart-throwing at this point. If you want to argue he belongs higher, feel free. Want to move him down? Okay, no argument here. He’s either so valuable the Mets would never move him, so risky teams would never trade for him, or something in between. So I stick him here, but with zero conviction that it’s the right spot; this ranking is basically me doing the shrug emoji.
| Team Control WAR Total | +13.3 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2018 |
| Previous Rank | #8 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2017 | 24 | +6.6 | Arb2 |
| 2018 | 25 | +6.7 | Arb3 |
The fact that Manny Machado can’t crack the top 10 this year this year speaks to the insane depth of young talent currently dominating the sport. Machado is also a legitimate AL MVP candidate, a superstar who just turned 24 and is coming into his own as one of baseball’s premier players. He even slid back over to shortstop this year, showing his defensive excellence wasn’t reserved for just third base. He’s everything you could want in a franchise player — other than being able to make sure he would stick around for the long-term, anyway. With just two arbitration years remaining after this season, Machado is headed for a monstrous free-agent paycheck, and while I’m sure the Orioles would love to keep him, the price will probably be prohibitive. Machado’s willingness to bet on himself by going year to year is going to pay off in a big way, and that coming massive paycheck is the only reason Machado finds himself outside the top 10 this year.
| Rk | Pv | Player | Age | 2017 | 2018 | 2019 | 2020 | 2021 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 11 | 8 | Manny Machado | 23 | +6.6 Arb2 |
+6.7 Arb3 |
|||
| 12 | 22 | Noah Syndergaard | 23 | +4.9 Pre-Arb |
+5.1 Arb1 |
+4.7 Arb2 |
+4.8 Arb3 |
+4.6 Arb4 |
| 13 | 35 | Jose Altuve | 26 | +5.5 $4.5 M |
+5.3 $6.0 M |
+5.1 $6.5 M |
||
| 14 | 17 | Josh Donaldson | 30 | +6.4 $17.0 M |
+5.6 Arb4 |
|||
| 15 | 6 | Chris Sale | 27 | +6.1 $12.0 M |
+5.7 $12.5 M |
+5.3 $13.5 M |
||
| 16 | 16 | Madison Bumgarner | 26 | +4.8 $11.5 M |
+4.7 $12.0 M |
+4.3 $12.0 M |
||
| 17 | 23 | Jose Fernandez | 23 | +6.1 Arb2 |
+6.3 Arb3 |
|||
| 18 | 19 | Corey Kluber | 30 | +3.9 $7.5 M |
+3.3 $10.5 M |
+3.1 $13.0 M |
+2.6 $13.5 M |
+2.3 $14.0 M |
| 19 | 18 | Buster Posey | 29 | +5.6 $21.4 M |
+4.9 $21.4 M |
+4.2 $21.4 M |
+3.7 $21.4 M |
+3.1 $21.4 M |
| 20 | 33 | Xander Bogaerts | 23 | +4.2 Arb1 |
+4.6 Arb2 |
+4.6 Arb3 |
||
| 21 | 10 | Chris Archer | 27 | +3.6 $4.8 M |
+3.5 $6.3 M |
+3.2 $7.5 M |
+2.9 $9.0 M |
+2.6 $11.0 M |
| 22 | 20 | Jacob deGrom | 28 | +3.7 Arb1 |
+3.5 Arb2 |
+3.2 Arb3 |
+2.9 Arb4 |
|
| 23 | 26 | Christian Yelich | 24 | +3.4 $3.5 M |
+3.2 $7.0 M |
+3.1 $9.8 M |
+3.0 $12.5 M |
+2.8 $14.0 M |
| 24 | – | Gregory Polanco | 24 | +3.3 $1.6 M |
+3.3 $4.1 M |
+3.1 $6.1 M |
+3.1 $8.6 M |
+2.8 $11.6 M |
| 25 | 41 | Jose Quintana | 27 | +4.2 $6.0 M |
+4.1 $8.8 M |
+3.8 $10.5 M |
+3.4 $10.5 M |
|
| 26 | – | Yoan Moncada | 21 | +2.7 Pre-Arb |
+3.1 Pre-Arb |
+3.2 Pre-Arb |
+3.2 Pre-Arb |
+3.4 Arb1 |
| 27 | 39 | Carlos Carrasco | 29 | +3.1 $6.5 M |
+2.8 $8.0 M |
+2.5 $9.0 M |
+2.2 $9.5 M |
|
| 28 | – | Jackie Bradley Jr. | 26 | +4.0 Arb1 |
+3.9 Arb2 |
+3.8 Arb3 |
+3.4 Arb4 |
|
| 29 | 25 | Starling Marte | 27 | +3.3 $5.0 M |
+3.2 $7.5 M |
+2.8 $10.0 M |
+2.5 $12.5 M |
+2.1 $13.5 M |
| 30 | – | George Springer | 26 | +3.5 Arb1 |
+3.2 Arb2 |
+3.1 Arb3 |
+2.8 Arb4 |
|
| 31 | 32 | Addison Russell | 22 | +4.0 Pre-Arb |
+4.1 Arb1 |
+3.9 Arb2 |
+3.9 Arb3 |
+3.8 Arb4 |
| 32 | – | Miguel Sano | 23 | +2.8 Pre-Arb |
+2.9 Pre-Arb |
+2.8 Arb1 |
+2.6 Arb2 |
+2.5 Arb3 |
| 33 | – | Nomar Mazara | 21 | +3.6 Pre-Arb |
+4.0 Pre-Arb |
+4.0 Arb1 |
+4.0 Arb2 |
+4.1 Arb3 |
| 34 | – | Danny Salazar | 26 | +3.3 Arb1 |
+3.4 Arb2 |
+3.1 Arb3 |
+2.9 Arb4 |
|
| 35 | 13 | Gerrit Cole | 25 | +3.7 Arb1 |
+3.8 Arb2 |
+3.5 Arb3 |
||
| 36 | – | Julio Urias | 19 | +2.5 Pre-Arb |
+2.9 Pre-Arb |
+3.1 Pre-Arb |
+3.5 Arb1 |
+3.4 Arb2 |
| 37 | – | Alex Bregman | 22 | +2.7 Pre-Arb |
+3.1 Pre-Arb |
+3.4 Pre-Arb |
+3.5 Arb1 |
+3.5 Arb2 |
| 38 | – | Andrew Benintendi | 21 | +2.2 Pre-Arb |
+2.7 Pre-Arb |
+3.2 Pre-Arb |
+3.4 Arb1 |
+3.4 Arb2 |
| 39 | – | J.P. Crawford | 21 | +2.9 Pre-Arb |
+3.5 Pre-Arb |
+3.6 Pre-Arb |
+3.8 Arb1 |
+4.1 Arb2 |
| 40 | – | Lance McCullers | 22 | +3.3 Pre-Arb |
+3.5 Arb1 |
+3.3 Arb2 |
+3.3 Arb3 |
+3.3 Arb4 |
| 41 | – | Lucas Giolito | 21 | +2.4 Pre-Arb |
+2.8 Pre-Arb |
+3.0 Pre-Arb |
+3.5 Arb1 |
+3.3 Arb2 |
| 42 | – | Trevor Story | 23 | +3.5 Pre-Arb |
+3.6 Pre-Arb |
+3.5 Arb1 |
+3.3 Arb2 |
+3.3 Arb3 |
| 43 | 12 | Joc Pederson | 24 | +3.1 Pre-Arb |
+3.2 Arb1 |
+3.1 Arb2 |
+2.9 Arb3 |
|
| 44 | 34 | Salvador Perez | 26 | +3.3 $3.0 M |
+3.3 $7.5 M |
+2.9 $10.0 M |
+2.7 $13.0 M |
+2.2 $13.0 M |
| 45 | – | Julio Teheran | 25 | +3.6 $6.3 M |
+3.7 $8.0 M |
+3.3 $11.0 M |
+3.3 $12.0 M |
|
| 46 | – | Alex Reyes | 21 | +2.7 Pre-Arb |
+3.0 Pre-Arb |
+2.9 Pre-Arb |
+2.8 Arb1 |
+2.7 Arb2 |
| 47 | – | Jake Lamb | 25 | +3.3 Pre-Arb |
+3.1 Arb1 |
+2.8 Arb2 |
+2.7 Arb3 |
|
| 48 | – | Rougned Odor | 22 | +3.7 Pre-Arb |
+3.8 Arb1 |
+4.1 Arb2 |
+4.1 Arb3 |
|
| 49 | – | Jon Gray | 24 | +3.4 Pre-Arb |
+3.5 Pre-Arb |
+3.2 Arb1 |
+3.2 Arb2 |
+3.1 Arb3 |
| 50 | 47 | Carlos Martinez | 24 | +3.7 Arb1 |
+3.9 Arb2 |
+3.5 Arb3 |
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
Re: Xander. I was told that no Red Sox prospects ever blossom and are continually overrated….#BIAS
So we kick off this comment thread with the hottest of hot takes.
Have Red Sox fans actively taken on the task of lowering the intelligence level of baseball conversations all over the internet?
APR/MAY: .400babip, 143wrc+
JUN/JUL: .322babip, 108wrc+
has the real Xander stood up?
#reverseblossom?
If the Red Sox offered Xander for Tulo, would you do it?
xander has more value.
which one helps my team win a world series more this year? not so sure.
So I just looked at the numbers… Xander has been much better on offense, but Tulo’s been better on defense. I prefer Xander, but if Tulo goes on one of his hot streaks like he has in the past, he very well could be of more help than XB… much closer than it seems on the surface…
tulo seems to back to being Tulo after a horrible first 100pa or so (which may have just been babip driven).
I have some faith he keeps it up but not total faith.
Besides the never ending debate about his BABIP, it’s strange of often people treat Bogaerts’s underlying stats as if the were set in stone. Last year he supposedly sucked because his ISO and walk rate weren’t good enough. He was *22*
The babip discussion is a fair one though. Without the babip the past two years he is the offensive equivalent of Didi Gregorious. He currently needs that babip to be an elite player, so wondering whether that babip can last is valid.
Yea, well Didi Gregorious is pretty good, isn’t he? If he was 23 and pre-arb, he would be pretty high on this list. He had to make substantial improvements in his power and contact from when he was X’s age to get to this level.
Didi is a good player but no where near an elite player. Boegaerts’ “poor” 2015 season was basically the same as Didi’s 2016 season.
I believe the argument was that their improvement would be countered by a likely babip regression.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/hitter-contact-quality-report-shortstop/
Actually, Bogaerts is pretty much just going to run a well above-average BABIP so long as he calls Fenway home. His fly ball profile is significantly stilted toward left field (which makes sense), and the Green Monster rewards that both in terms of easy home runs (for high enough launch angles) and guaranteed doubles (or loud singles). Also, Bogaerts’ fly ball rate is due for some significant positive regression even more than his BABIP is due for some negative regression.
In short, his adjusted production even WITHOUT accounting for Fenway’s bizarre left field is already neck-and-neck with Tulo (and Tulo’s adjusted production accounts for the terrible luck he had in his first 100 PA this year). Once you adjust for Fenway, he’s the clear #2 in the AL for offensive production at shortstop (ignoring Machado), and has a decent claim to being even more productive than Correa.
Now this is a sexy group. Tons of trade value here.
It would be interesting to see how far up Jose Fernandez’ value would go if he were signed to a deal that buys out a couple of free agency years.
I think it would depend greatly on the terms of the contract. His value could conceivably go down, depending on how much he got paid.
Dave,
Can you comment on why Kluber went from #19 to #18, despite having a year less of control and you being kinda down on him performing against his peripherals? Is it just a case of people that were ahead of him getting more worserer fasterer?
Thanks – love the series.
Pitchers in general got a bit of a boost this year because of the scarce quality of pitchers available right now, so he benefited a bit from that. But yeah, mostly, he benefits from guys like McCutchen and Gray falling off the list, Cole getting hurt, Archer struggling, Joc taking a big step back, etc…
Would Machado really fetch more in return than Donaldson? I know he’s younger but Donaldson has proved to be more durable and is the better hitter. And if you are only going to have one of them for the next 2 years anyway wouldn’t you take the better player?
As someone who roots for a team that’s a rival of both players, I’d take Machado over Donaldson all day every day: capable of playing a more premium defensive position (3B only for Donaldson vs 3B and SS for Machado) and Machado is just much more likely to get better than worse where as Donaldson’s age makes him more likely to regress backwards.
If we were talking a rental for the remainder of this year, I’d take Donaldson’s current performance, but I’d bet money on Machado outperforming Donaldson over the next 2 1/2.
yeah, as a jays fan, I gotta go with machado’s 24-25yr old years over donaldson’s 31-32yr old years.
I take Machado as well. Their present value is extremely close, but it is certainly easier to see Machado getting better given their respective career stages.
That’s a very reasonable and logical point. I agree with you on the SS/3B factor for Machado. Fun thing to note, though. Past calendar year, Donaldson is the best player in baseball. Not Trout, surprisingly, but JD.
JD – 168 wRC+, 9.9 WAR
Trout – 167 wRC+, 9.4 WAR
Lindor/Bryant have 8.5/8.2 respectively. Harper is 7.3, then Machado at 7.1 (135 wRC+)
I think the age related fears of Donaldson declining are a bit overrated. He’s 30, not 33.
Right now there’s a pretty clear tier 1 in JD/Trout, and a second tier of players which includes Machado. Even if you go back as far as 2013, the 2 best position players are Trout/JD, and then a second tier of players. Works when you do that for 2013 to 2016, 2014-2016, 2015-2016, past calendar year, or current year.
Machado is a fantastic player with a ton of upside, but as good as he is right now he’s still lower in production than JD/Trout.
The only arguments In favour of Machado I think is the SS issue, and if you’re really concerned about age. But for the next 2.5 years I’d take JD over Machado. To put it in perspective, Donaldson could have 1 less WAR in 2017 than 2016 and that would just make him equal to Machado. I don’t see him regressing significantly enough over the next 2 years to make him a worse bet than Machado.
If we were going longer than 2.5 years I’d take Machado but short term over the next few years I’d take JD. He often gets bunched into the Trout/Harper/Machado grouping, but really it should be Trout/JD in one tier and everybody else in the next one.
Pretty sure the projections already take the possible decline/progression into account. Ryan has a pretty good argument imo, Machado has had surgeries on both knees, and is a suspension risk. Plus Donaldson has hit so much better than Machado in recent history, and there’s a supposed hitting premium.
Suspension risk? That seems like a bit of a reach. For one thing I dont think “suspensions” are really all that projectable lol. And even if they were the downside of any potential suspension is pretty insignificant.
Even if he were suspended for 15 games every year (which would be a massive suspension by MLB standards) you would still have one of the 10 most valuable players in the game for 90% of the season. You would basically be looking at an impact of -0.5 WAR or less. Which is virtually meaningless.
I would bet a ton of money past suspensions are a very good predictor for future ones. He’s been suspended twice, averaging 3 games per season for the past 3 seasons. Plus repeat offenders a) are likely to be given less leeway and b) are likely to get a more severe punishment. I would say he’s more likely to get into other kinds of trouble as well. It also hurts his marketability, and thus his trade value.
When we’re nitpicking similar players, small stuff matters.
As someone who roots for the Cubs, I think we should all stop talking about Josh Donaldson’s trade value. It’s too depressing.
Defense.
Machado’s a shortstop and at 24, he’s expected to improve.
I find the Donaldson situation quite interesting because we have some evidence of what his real world trade value was, and it was shockingly low. Given that he’s now got less team control, do you think he has actually gotten significantly better to offset this value lost? Or did the A’s really blow the trade that badly?
For whatever reason, Beane traded him without ever shopping him around. I’m pretty sure everyone else thought he was unavailable.
Is there any evidence for this? If so, I would think this would be a fireable offense for Beane.
You can’t fire Brad Pitt.
I for one thought it was a fireable offense.
There have been articles written about how Beane didn’t shop JD around and it was AA who kept going back to Beane to try and get him to flip him.
to be fair, the 2yrs since the trade have dramatically reduced his downside/risk factors.
Yeah, he’s clearly a better player now
It’s only shockingly low because Lawrie tanked and JD has been much better than anticipated, and then the As gave Lawrie away for nothing for some reason.
Lawrie didn’t exactly tank. His wRC+ the last few years are 97, 95, 103, 94. His offensive production last year was certainly within the expected range.
Tanked is a little strong, but he was expected to be better than he has been. And I’m not sure why the seasons with the Jays are relevant, I’m talking after the trade obviously, when his wRC+ has been 94 and 97, both below his pre-trade career wRC+ of 105.
Donaldson was worth 14 WAR in the 2 years before the A’s traded him, and was in his prime. “Much” better than anticipated? More like marginally better than anticipated. It’s not like his 2015 season was a whole lot better than his 2013 season.
Donaldson’s last year with Oakland he posted a wRC+ of 129. Last year with the Jays it was 154. This year its 167.I think a 35-40% increase in production is more than marginal.
Even if you want to use his 2013 season he is still currently 20% over that.
The projections had him at only 5.1 WAR for 2015 (which implies a projection of under 5WAR for 2016, let’s say 10 total WAR over the 2 years to be generous). Hitters these days tend to start a slow decline at 25-26, and as a former catcher he might age a bit worse. So the 14.1 WAR he has already + ~2.7 over the rest of the year is much better than anticipated in my judgement.
Projections are inherently conservative so I don’t think it’s super relevant to the discussion. Trout was projected for 8.2 WAR in 2013, would you really say Trout performed “much better than anticipated” in 2013 because he put up 10.5 WAR? There’s a non-zero chance that any player suffers an injury that renders them valueless, which is something you factor into projections, but isn’t something you really “anticipate”, right? It’s semantics, but I don’t really see how Donaldson, a guy who was worth 7.6 WAR with a 147 wRC+ in his age 27 season, is much better than anticipated with 8.7 WAR and a 154 wRC+ in his age-29 season. 10-15% variance in baseball is pretty marginal. A guy going from being the 3rd most valuable player in baseball from 2013-2014, to the second most valuable player in baseball from 2014-15, this is in some way surprising? “Has performed at the high end of expectations?” Sure, but “much better than anticipated?” If I were trading for Donaldson before 2015 I’d have been trading for a guy who, if healthy, I anticipated was capable of being a consistent 6-8 WAR player
well at the time of the trade that 147wrc+ definitely looked like a hugh water mark and even the 129wrc+ he had just posted didn’t necessarily look sustainable.
him jumping right back up even higher wasn’t the craziest thing to ever happe but i don’t thinm even AA was betting on that.
I think the key was Beane making a huge bet on Lawrie’s aging curve vs. Donaldson’s while plucking at least one diamond in the rough from the others in the deal.
Fun factoid – this is Lawrie’s age-26 season, in which he is posting a 97 wRC+ as a mild “bust”. At the same age, Donaldson was splitting his time between AAA and his rookie season with the A’s, posting a 90 wRC+.
Well, you mentioned a player a player getting 28% more WAR than expected (which is still a pretty solid overperform), this is 68% more!
Also, the “inherently conservative” projections predicted 2.2 WAR for Lawrie in 2015 in 450 PAs, he got 0.6 in 602 PAs, I’m sure you predicted that decline too right?
2016 Anagram Value: #50 to #11
#50: Czar Rats Lo Mein
#49: Joy ‘N Rag
#48: Grounder Doo
#47: Blake Jam
#46: Relax Eyes
#45: Injure To Heal
#44: Rise Vapor Daze
#43: Don Jeers Cop
#42: Rev. Rosy Trot
#41: U.S. Italic Logo
#40: LL Muscle Cancer
#39: Dwarf Crop J
#38: Brand New Diet Nine
#37: Rex Bagelman
#36: Our Jail Is U
#35: Gil Erector
#34: Zany Salad Ran
#33: Amazon Marra
#32: Mis Angelou
#31: Nerds Dial Souls
#30: Re Reggie’s Prong
#29: Margret Stalin
#28: Badly Jeer A Brick
#27: Ol’ Cars O’ Cars Car
#26: Canada Moony
#25: Jeans A No Quit
#24: Grape Colon Gyro
#23: Miley Critics: Hah!
#22: DJ Booger Mac
#21: Rich Crasher
#20: Dragon-Bear Sext
#19: Busty Repose
#18: Cory R. Luebke *
#17: Fond Sneeze Jar
#16: Sir Rougned R. Mamba
#15: Arch Isles
#14: Sad Old Johnson **
#13: Value O’Jest
#12: Angry Norse Dad, Ha? ***
#11: Handyman Coma
*courtesy of 2015 commenter “Corey Kluber”
**courtesy of 2015 commenter “mikecws91”
***courtesy of 2015 commenter “Marcus Tullius Cicero”
Xander’s anagram is making me reconsider his value.
Might give Ol’ Cars O Cars Car a run for his money as best anagram.
#20 Bare Dragon Sext?
” #18: Cory R. Luebke *
Mind = Blown (Pirates fan)
So was mine, when it was brought to my attention last year.
Corey Robert Luebke
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/luebkco01.shtml
You added ‘Rougned’ to your dictionary just in case? You win.
“Rougned Odor” just baaaarely lost out to “Grounder Doo” for #48 on the list. “Rougned” should be part of everyone’s dictionary.
“Grounder Doo” could become the baseball equivalent of a “fumblerooski”….maybe the new name for a weak roller that gets a runner over?
My guess at top 10:
Harper
Mookie
Rizzo
Arenado
Goldschmidt
Correa
Lindor
Bryant
Trout
Seager
That’s pretty good. I’m with you on Seager being a surprise #1. He’s so good, with so much team control. I can’t imagine the Dodgers trading him straight up for Trout. I do think Correa will rank ahead of Lindor, mainly because of the trade value of power, but I wouldn’t be surprised either way on that one.
I don’t think Seager has done enough to pass Trout or Bryant.
He’s got a career 144 wRC+, and that’s in 500 PA, so I feel like pitchers have had time to find any holes he has. He is a plus defender at SS, was an elite prospect, and is just 22 years old so his ZiPS projection is probably as good as anyone in baseball. And he won’t be a free agent until after the 2021 season. He is clearly in the discussion for most valuable asset in baseball, and even if he isn’t listed as #1 it’s probably close enough to be a wash.
And to add on, I don’t think he’s Super Two eligible the way Bryant is, so he won’t be as expensive as things stand right now.
yeah not like bryant’s sample is much bigger.
I could honestly see Bryant Trout and Seager in any order. I think those 3 are pretty clearly the most valuable, the order is probably subjective based on how you view age, position and salary.
Yeah, let’s stretch the sample size out beyond just this year to include Bryant’s and Seager’s entire career where Bryant’s career WAR is 11.5 and Seager’s is *gulp* less than half of that. Not to mention, Corey’s not even tops in his family for WAR over the last 2 years.
I wish we had some kind of war rate stat to get a better picture of how they compare in actual performance level so far.
ah well, maybe in another lifetime.
Seager has a career 144 wRC+, Bryant 142. And while you are right about sample size being pretty drastically different, it’s not as if Seager has done this in 100 PA. It’s been almost a full season’s worth. And when it comes to projection, there is a big difference between putting up these numbers at 24, which Bryant is, and doing it at 22 like Seager. When Bryant was 22 he was in AA.
Bryant possibly, Trout no way.
I’d put Trout first, Bryant 2nd, Seager 3rd and Rizzo 4-6 somewhere.
Trout by a hair over the trio of Lindor, Seager, and Bryant in some order, with Correa a hair behind them. I think the top 5 is pretty clear right now.
Seager is not passing Trout this year. Trout is only signed for one year less and is only 2 year older. Hard for a guy that has posted 5.4 WAR is his career to unseat a guy that has never recorded less than 8 WAR in a season. Trout really is a generational player and he is signed to a very reasonable contract when you consider his skill set.
You are right. But Trout will be paid $120 million in that timeframe, while Seager will be in pre-arb and arbitration. So while I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect anyone to be better than Trout over the next 5 years, he doesn’t need to be as good to justify being more valuable, given that he will be paid so much less.
And honestly I wouldn’t be surprised if their ZiPS forecasts are fairly close. Pre-season, Seager’s #1 player comp was Cal Ripken, I think. That should tell you how much ZiPS loves him.
Saving money is great and for most players you would be right. Trout is the performance equivalent of Seager + Beltran
I think the Dodgers would trade Seager in a hot second for Trout. But if Seager was with a small-market club, say the Pirates or Oakland, I think the difference in money becomes more important.
Which is actually my biggest issue(?) with these rankings – that they rely a bit too heavily on a fixed value of salary when large, mid, and small-market teams adjust their overall value accordingly.
That looks good, but Stras isn’t on the list yet. He’s not a top 10 player, but there’s no way he’s not on the list at all, is there? He wasn’t even an honorable mention. What am I missing?
He just signed a $175MM extension? http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/05/nationals-to-extend-stephen-strasburg.html
A contract like that doesn’t have any trade value because he is already being paid a lot.
Well that’s wrong. A player being paid $23-25M player is plenty valuable when he’s worth $10M more than that.
This is the first grouping where I knew all the players. Anyone else in the same boat?
Apparently not. But let me ask Rich Dreyfuss.
“Bigger boat? You…you don’t need a bigger boat. That dinghy will do just fine.”
Re Kluber: is 800 innings really enough to make clear he’ll continue to underperform his peripherals so much to disqualify him as an “ace”? ZiPS and Steamer don’t agree, but I wonder if there’s evidence to back up Dave’s claim.
To add on to this, as of June 9th this season (according to Tony Blengino’s contact management update), Kluber’s allowed harder FB contact than average, but below average LD and GB contact (especially so for the GB contact). He hasn’t gotten many pop ups, and has a GB lean (although his LD% is very low this year, something that will regress for most pitchers).
At least to me, nothing in there screams that his batted balls get blasted more than the average pitcher.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/american-league-contact-management-update/
Asdrubal Cabrera, Nick Swisher, and Michael Bourn – even after they are gone – continue to haunt Cleveland’s pitchers.
And don’t forget about Lonnie Chisenhall, 3rd Baseman and the Carlos Santana experience. Fans still wear helmets down the 1st baseline at the Jake because of that duo.
Pre-Lindor was a real bad time to be a Cleveland pitcher.
Kluber seems to draw the defensive short straw every year. There’s also the infamous Raburn spiking, some especially awful Mike Aviles in the OF, and this spring’s balls lost in the sun by Rajai Davis.
What the heck is wrong with you guys? There are anti-Boston trolls on every FGs post that is even remotely associated with the team, and Boston’s prospect history is often taken to task about as accurately as many people present Tony Romo’s career.
So you’re really going to have a problem with a person trying to sarcastically cut those jerks off at the pass?
JJWattsArmBrace is the worst comment of all (Damaso’s is to be expected). No, Boston fans have to deal with the collective unintellegence of a handful of really worthless trolls, so they have something stupid to have to counter every. single. time.
if the red sox finally start living up to the hype, those comments will dissappear.
you should be angry at the team, not the commenters.
They’ve won three world series in the last two decades. That’s not a bad way to live up to hype as a franchise. And this year… their Base Runs have them as the the best team in the AL, with a 76.4% chance to make the post-season trailing only Cleveland and Texas (barely!), both of which are in different divisions.
I’d say they’re living up to the hype.
the red sox weren’t getting nasty comments over the last two decades. just the last couple years.
they had a torrid start this year, but have been under .500 for their last 50 games, and are still not living up to preseason projections.
they’ll have to do better than that to silence the critics.
If only they’d won the World Series recently.
How are they not living up to preseason projections? They’re on a 91 win pace right now. In January they were pegged as a 92 win team. To the best of my recollection most projections had them in that 87-93 win range.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/an-early-look-at-the-projected-standings/
What was that meme again? Something about winning arguments on the internet?
We must not allow a bitter troll gap
Can someone please explain why Matt Carpenter didn’t make this list?
Every year, Dave feels like he is writing some kind of apology to Matt Carpenter, who is clearly one of the best players in the game, and keeps getting better each year. He’s an elite player who isn’t often treated like an elite player, and as one of Dave’s favorite guys in the game, he’d love to recognize him as one of the most valuable players in the sport. But, as a 30 year old, his value is mostly tied to what he can do for you in the short-term, and with a strained oblique that might cost him a decent chunk of the second half, that value just took a hit. He’s #51 on Dave’s list, as Dave tried and tried to get him on this year, but in the end, Dave just couldn’t do it. Ross also would have made the list if he didn’t just go on the DL; he may be fine, and the Nationals may just be resting him, but they did his trade value no favors by citing shoulder inflammation.
The links to previous posts at the top of the page exist for a reason.
Can someone please explain to me why every year someone posts a comment asking about a player that clearly indicates they didn’t take the time to read the previous posts?
probably because they didn’t take the time to read the previous posts.
because opinions are easy and reading is hard
Machado is a great player but I would think the knee injury as a 22 y/o would at least dictate caution for the future. He seems to have bounced back nicely, but a damaged knee is never the same. Same goes for the fixed blown out elbows.
Syndergaard’s definitely in a weird zone. The Mets even making him available for trade now would make teams nervous because it’d seem like they’re pessimistic about his long-term health. On the other hand, his performance has been so impressive that you could lose a year to injury and still get a tremendous return for the price. I have no idea what a fair trade would look like for either team, but here’s hoping he stays healthy so we get to see more Thor.
Yeah, if the Mets shopped him around, it would actually tank his value. You could envision this trade value as being: a portal opens between two players and swaps them — are the teams happy or sad? If both teams are happy or both sad, then we say the two players are similar value.
But it still has funny cases like portal between Secretly Injured Ace and Yan Gomes. Both teams are happy, initially, because one knows about the injury and the other doesn’t yet.
Does the WAR forecast for pitchers include offensive WAR? I would be curious to see what Bumgarner’s projected oWAR is over the next 3 seasons.
Also, aside from Thor, was Fernandez the hardest to rank? There seems to be a lot of variables working against him, too.
I really wouldn’t imagine it does include that
In hindsight, was 35th too low for Altuve last year? I didn’t realize he’d signed such a team-friendly contract. It feels like Altuve’s contract+performance would have made him top 5 back in the Longoria-dominated days before the team-controlled youth breakout exploded.
Unless you saw the .80 spike in ISO coming (which nobody did) then I think it’s fine. He’s hit 1 less home run this year so far than he had in ALL of last year.
Prime Longoria was a .200+ ISO hitter… Altuve hadn’t surpassed .146 for a single season.
Also, people tend to forget this is TRADE VALUE. Not just a list of great players. The market would pay more for somebody like prime Longo than they would have Altuve pre-2016. Power comes at a premium cost.
Harper has to be 10th, right? He and Machado have the same number of years of team control and maybe project roughly the same? Also Harper will probably get a bigger payday in arbitration because of the dingers?
My prediction for #1 is still Kit Rot Emu.
Hmmmm……
Unless I’m missing something totally obvious, I have to think the top 10 is, in no particular order:
Trout
Harper
Bryant
Seager
Lindor
Correa
Rizzo
Goldschmidt
Betts
Arenado
If I had to order them 1-10:
1) Trout
Bryant
Seager
Correa
Lindor
Betts
Goldschmidt
Rizzo
Harper
10) Arenado
Seager over Bryant because of position + age + extra year of control. Probably true for Lindor too.
Bryant has as much team control left as Seager and Lindor. He’s just guaranteed Super-2 status, and Lindor might be Super-2 as well. And team control for Bryant goes through age 29, so age is not a factor at all.
Lindor and Seager are both two years younger than Bryant.
I think Arenado would be ahead of Harper because he has one more year of team control left. 3.5 years of Arenado is more valuable than 2.5 of Harper. Probably ahead of Goldschmidt as well because he will likely be cheaper and they have the same amount of control left. My top ten would be:
10) Harper (2 years of Arbitration left, FA after 2018, age 24-25)
9) Goldschmidt (40 million through 2019, age 29-31)
8) Arenado (3 years of arbitration left, FA after 2019, age 26-28)
7) Betts (1 year league min. + 3 years Arb. FA after 2020, age 24-27)
6) Rizzo (54 million through 2017-21 age 27-30)
5) Trout (119 million through 2020, age 25-28)
4) Bryant (1 year league min. + 4 years Arb. FA after 2021, 25-29)
3) Correa (2 years league min. + 3 years Arb. FA after 2021, age 22-26)
2) Seager (2 years league min. + 3 years Arb. age 23-27)
1) Lindor (2 years league min. + 3 years Arb. age 23-27)
Trout is definitely the best player and likely will still be the best player after the 2021 season but he has one less year of control than my top four and will likely make about twice as much money. Arbitration is pretty unpredictable but David Price has the largest arbitration salary ever at 19.75 million. Each of my top 4 may cost half as much as Trout for one extra year of control.
even rizzo will cost less than half of trout and have an extra year of control, and unlike the others, that is completely predictable because at most, during would be arbitration years, he is already on the books for at most $11M (so $8M less than the record) and his bat will probably be as good or better than the others, but his base running and fielding hurt his value. even so, he’s a first baseman.
I wouldn’t argue too hard against putting Rizzo in front of Trout as well. My only arguments would be 1B and older. That was the spot closest to being a toss up for me.
So is Schwarber not on the list at all or top 10? Doesn’t seem like he is top 10 worthy considering his injury and defensive limitations, but boy did he rack last season. Seems like he would be worthy of a top 50.
Not on the list. Less than 300 MLB PAs (well maybe more with playoffs) not yet back from a serious knee injury, no to negative defensive value, and zero value for anyone in 2016. I don’t think he deserves to be on the list. I don’t know that he’s all that close.
Future DH coming off a major knee injury? Nope.
Schwarber picking up where he left off last year would probably have been in the Miguel Sano range, somewhere in the 30’s. If he comes back and rakes like a young Lance Berkman, he might be in the 30’s next year, even if he fields like Greg Luzinski in LF.
Schwarber’s not on the list. Dave answered this point in the comments to one of the earlier rankings and provided his rationale, which includes both the injury and defensive limitations.
No position, was already not very good defensively, and tore his ACL. He would have to be an amazing hitter rather than a really good one to break the top 50. I think Dave said on one of the previous days that Schwarber wasn’t even particularly close to the top 50
I don’t understand why people are assuming he will go directly to DH without trying him at 1B first. Seems like the natural position to try if he isn’t going to catch anymore.
people are shortsighted.
If baseball had a salary cap floor like some of the other leagues, would Bobby Bonilla’s trade value for the Mets increase?
MLB does have a salary floor. It’s about $12.7 million.
As fantastic as Buster Posey is, I was totally prepared for him to be left off of this list due to the size of his contract alone. Of all the players currently named, he has the largest financial commitment by a significant margin.
$107M over 5 years (next largest is Kluber at $58.5M for 3 years/2 options)
$21.4M AAV (next largest is Sale at $12.7M).
But catcher is such a difficult position to fill. With his track record of high production, there’s really no argument for anyone other than Posey right now as the best in baseball. He has 8.6 WAR since the beginning of 2015 when the next highest C only has 4.6.
And if the ZiPs projection can be considered the best estimate projection, he’ll be a first ballot hall-of-famer at the end of his current contract. I’m sure the Giants are planning on Buster walking off into the sunset/Cooperstown in orange & black.
As a catcher, it would probably be slightly less surprising if he fell off a cliff than the same scenario for a guy like Trout (ghost of Joe Mauer), but other than that, Posey is basically the Platonic Ideal of a catcher. I’m sitting here trying to convince other Dodger fans “Grandal is pretty good for a guy hitting .200” but Posey reminds us that there is a higher level we can hope for and never have.
Who would people say are trade value “snubs”, as in the most valuable assets who didn’t make the list, the honorable mentions list, or the fell-off-the-list-list?
I’d say Matt Duffy (2020, 1 pre-arb 3 arb), Kyle Hendricks (2020, 1 pre-arb 3 arb) and Jung Ho Kang (2019, $11.3M) all have value that puts them around the fringe of the list.
There aren’t many. I can only come up with Hendricks, Schoop, Panik, Keuchel, and Lucroy (I think he’ll bring in a nice haul when he’s moved this month even with 1.5 years left on his contract) and maybe Schwarber (discussed a bunch), Carlos Rodon, and Maikel Franco. Also a bunch of prospects.
Kershaw, Strasburg
Dave, love the series. Wondering if you could shed light on the trade value of Jonathan Schoop. To me (O’s fan, sure) he seems like a really valuable asset.
At 24 years old now, he only hits Arb-1 next year and can’t be a free agent until 2020. He plays up-the-middle defense at an average (according to UZR and DEF) or above average level (“eye test,” Buck’s opinion, etc.) level. His WRC+ and OPS+ overall and ROS projections are average, but held down by an atrocious 2013 when he was in the big leagues at age 22. Last year his WRC+ was 112, and so far this year it’s 122 with great power for second base.
So he’s young and cheap, offers 3.5 years of control, plays average or better defense at an important position, and has a good bat trending in the right direction with plus power (which teams overpay for) as his main offensive calling card. Not saying he’s perfect – far from it – but what am I missing that drives his value so far below the top ~75 trade value players in the game? Can it really be the bad rookie year and the freak injury that he has (more than) recovered from?
Check Dave’s chat thread, which was mainly answers to questions about the Trade Value lists. Someone asked him about Schoop and he answered.
Oh cool, didn’t realize. Thanks!
if anthony rizzo and kris bryant aren’t one and two, then two very really good players must be 1 and 2
Are you implying that if Rizzo and Bryant aren’t one and two, then two very really good players must NOT be 1 and 2?
inadvertently yes, but i meant to write “two other very really good players must be 1 and 2”
wait.. what?
Trout.
no denying trout is the best player, but rizzo is going to be making $54M from 2017 through 2021, trout will have made $138.42M in that span and be in free angency already (barring an extension, which considering the money involved, would prolly compromise his trade value even more).
Trout is only signed for one year less and is still two year younger than Rizzo. Rizzo is a great player but he has never even had a 6 WAR season. Trout’s worst season was an 8 win season. That level of production truly is unmatched.
Trout probably loses his top spot in 2018 when he starts making 34MM a season. Hard to believe but even at 5/148 Trout is a massive bargain.
Donaldson, Manchado, Harper and Bryant are the only players playing well enough to unseat Trout. Donaldson, Manchado and Harper all have their value limited due to their contractual situations. Bryant is the only serious contender for the top spot aside from Trout. Bet Trout and Bryant are 1 and 2.
i mean 34M a year could be a bargain for a player like trout, but considering that very few other teams could carry that load on their roster and still afford to field a winning team, i think it makes him a bit less tradeable. machado will be a free agent years before rizzo, and be more expensive, donaldson has even less years of control and is much older. it would make more sense to trade for a MVP type bat like rizzo, and still afford another premium player than put all yours eggs into one basket. but what do i know, if the angels have taught us one thing, is that committing your payroll to two players is guaranteed to field you a winning team.
i just checked, nvm they’re terrible..
Rizzo is not a bad player, he just is not in the same class as Trout, Bryant and (performance wise not contract wise) Harper.
i am not disputing that at all. but rizzo is currently on pace to be at least 2/3rds the WAR of Trout, at 26 years old. and in five years he will cost $20M less than Trout, which means a team could pay Rizzo to get around 6 WAR, this year he’s on pace for almost 7-8 depending on fWAR or rWAR, and still be able to afford a $20M player who could put the value in those $34M above what Trout will be worth, or at least match it and have two positions be solidified instead of one. TROUT IS THE BEST PLAYER. I am not arguing against that. when building a team remember that there are 25 positions to fill, not just 1. being able to allocate funds across the roster is valuable.
Plenty of teams will be caring 30 + million dollar players soon. Kershaw, Grenkie and Price will soon be joined by Stanton, Cabrera, Trout, Harper, Manchado and Donaldson. By the time Trout is making 34 MM a season others will have topped that figure significantly.
and those teams too will have less financial room to allocate their payroll to solidify other positions or make a trade for a player. nice.
Teams are not backing away from big money contracts. Even the build from within Red Sox and Cubs handed out big free agent deals over the last 2 off seasons.
also true, and i can’t speak for the red sox cause i don’t pay attention to them, but acquiring both Jon Lester and Heyward required them leaving money on the table to sign with the Cubs. there’s a threshold to what the Cubs FO will pay on one position. and it’s not $30M, yet.
Bryant will probably be $30M. The cubs will also have a much higher payroll cap after their upcoming tv deal.
i think i may just be explaining my reasoning horribly. Rizzo will cost $14.5M when Trout will cost $34M. there are going to be teams like the rays, brewers, pirates, etc, who would never be able to afford to trade for Trout unless the Angels eat a very significant portion of the money. the fact that more teams are priced out of Trout means that by definition he has less tradeability. however those teams could conceivably still afford Rizzo (of course Rizzo would never be traded) and the options for teams that could afford to trade him are more. sure, ANY team would love to trade for Trout, but realistically that is no longer financially feasible to a lot of teams, probably the majority of teams. that’s not the case for Rizzo. and his value is still significant to entice almost all teams.
I get what you’re saying and your argument has merit, however, keep in mind that this exercise is not simply a straight-forward WAR/$ calculation. In cases like Rizzo vs. Trout, it may be helpful to imagine the two teams discussing a trade involving those two players. I believe the Cubs would jump at the offer while the Angels would refuse it. Do you disagree?
i think if pujols is included the angels take it. the cubs have a plethora of players that could play first base, they have a question mark in center field however. so this solves every cubs need on offense. the angels simply cant entertain this offer because they are valueless anywhere else. other than trout, they have two players who have cleared the 1.0 WAR threshold at this point. and pujol’s is clogging a spot for Rizzo. and while Rizzo can play first, since he’s below average defensively, to maximize his value, you place him in DH, at which point he closes the WAR gap with Trout even more. that, with a huge boost in payroll space, i think the Angels highly consider this. sorry, but a straight up one-for-one only makes sense for one team and trades aren’t structured that way. my whole argument is that this exercise does not, or should not, imply it is working in a vacuum and thus it is not necessarily a ranking of who’s best.
By saying the Angels would only accept if a massive salary dump was included, you’re admitting that Trout has more trade value than Rizzo.
Rizzo is an above average first baseman defensively. His negative defensive value is due to the defensive adjustment applied to all first baseman, but he currently ranks fifth best at the position.
i’m saying that trout is more valuable to the cubs than rizzo, but that is because the cubs have a specific need at that position and a surplus of options at rizzo’s position. the cubs could certainly make the trade because it helps them more than keeping rizzo would AND the cubs have the payroll capacity to make the trade. if the cubs had a player even half the value of trout already at center, however, i dont think the cubs make that trade. and also seeing as how their savings on rizzo can now be passed on to help keep likes of bryant, russell, schwarber around, i don’t think the cubs make that trade now. and i realized my mistake on the ‘below average’ position after it was too late to correct it, seeing however as the angels are 28th in defensive value at first, that would also be an improvement.
Putting Pujols and his contract into a deal is not just some small throw-in. His remaining contract after this year is 5 years / $140 million for a player who may be barely above replacement level. Even in a relatively optimistic scenario, there’s at least $100 million of negative value in the rest of Pujols’ contract.
Also, Rizzo is not “below average” defensively at 1B. His career UZR/150 is 7.4. If you’re just looking at the “Def” column on his player page, you can’t use that to assess if a player is a good fielder for his position, because it includes both the player’s individual performance and position adjustment. Playing Rizzo at DH wouldn’t increase his WAR, but would in fact lower it.
yeah that was ridiculous wasn’t it. why would the cubs do that?
Seager ahead of Rizzo I think, obviously younger with more control, and arguably as good a player today.
true, but my reasoning is that Rizzo, who is putting up MVP offensive numbers and is still improving, is already under contract for the next 5 seasons at an extremely cheap rate. if seager, harper, machado, go year to year during their arbitration years, they will definetly be paid much more than rizzo. i’m not saying rizzo is the best, but i dont think any team would balk at the chance to obtain his bat at the salary he’s guaranteed.
i got so into the discussion i forgot this was supposed to be a joke.
We’ve reached the never going to be traded portion of the list.
kluber and sale could be traded
Anyone on the Marlins is a trade candidate, including Fernandez.
Good point. Fernandez is still cheap enough to stick around though. Marlins have a shot at the postseason too.
Yeah, so he’s not going to be traded now, which is the point. Kluber as well is definitely not going to be traded now. Sale is the only top-20 guy that has any real chance of being traded before the offseason.
I don’t see Sale being available. White Sox are clearly trying to make the post season. You can argue about how good a choice that is and how well they are going about it but they are clearly trying to contend in the short term. Given their strategy, it makes no sense for them to trade Sale now.
But he’s the only one with a chance. That’s all.
Sale to the Red Sox makes too much sense (depending on what the White Sox do in the next five/six months).
This is a fruitless exercise.
I experienced greater than 0 enjoyment from this exercise. It had a net positive effect on my life.
Where is Strasburg? I’d be shocked if he was ahead of Syndergaard, seeing as Noah is younger, cheaper and at least as good. But there’s no way Stras isn’t in the top 50 at all, is there? He’s not even an honorable mention. What am I missing?
Simple, Strasburg isn’t cheap. He has a 7 year / $175 million contract (maybe 10% or so less in NPV terms due to deferral of some salary) with player opt outs after years 3 and 4. He’s also right around the point where you worry about him blowing his elbow and needing another Tommy John surgery because of the time elapsed since his first one.
He’s also on pace for a 5+ win season as a 27 year old. He’s in his prime and is being paid $20M to be a $35-$40M value player. That is a shit ton of excess value. He has some injury risk, but so do most pitchers at this point. I would take Stras over most of the players in the 40-50 group. Amd even if you don’t think so, he at lleats deserves an honorable mention.
Strasburg has more than “some injury risk”. Read up on the history of how long guys usually pitch after TJ surgery before needing another one. Separate from that, Strasburg has been on the DL 3 times in the past season and a half – http://www.prosportstransactions.com/baseball/Search/SearchResults.php?Player=strasburg&Team=&BeginDate=&EndDate=&DLChkBx=yes&submit=Search
And if he hits 5 WAR this year, it will be the highest for a season in his career by half a run.
None of that is to say that he’s a bad player, or that it will necessarily turn out to be a bad contract. It’s saying that his extension was some discount to his free agent market value, but probably not a huge one. (In part that’s because of his injury risk.) Guys who are signed to long-term contracts at close to what they’d get as a free agent aren’t guys with huge trade value.
I think it would be useful to have the player’s age & DOB listed in their title bar. You mention it in many cases, but is still a bit difficult to infer this important information.