2016 Trade Value: #31 to #40
Over the last few days, we’ve started off the Trade Value series with the introduction, the honorable mentions, and the first 10 names of the series. I strongly encourage you to read all of the linked articles for an explanation of the question we’re trying to answer, and some context for who we’ve already discussed.
As we move to the second group, you’ll note that this tier is heavy on prospects and guys without a substantial big-league track record. These guys are always controversial, as some people value history over potential, but there’s no question teams are becoming more and more protective of their top young minor leaguers, especially the ones who can come up and make an impact on the big-league team. That is mostly what sets this group of prospects apart from the ones who didn’t quite make the cut: these guys have present value, and could mostly play in the big leagues today. The ability to impact a team in the second half of the year, as well as turn into a franchise cornerstone with more development, is what makes them so valuable to major-league clubs.
Also, thanks to Sean Dolinar, we’ve significantly upgraded the way we’re presenting the information here. On the individual player tables, the Guaranteed Dollars and Team Control WAR — which are provided by Dan Szymborski’s ZIPS projections — rows give you an idea of what kind of production and costs a team could expect going forward, though to be clear, we’re not counting the rest of 2016 in those numbers; they’re just included for reference of what a player’s future status looks like. And as a reminder, we’re not ranking players based on those projections, as teams aren’t going to just make trades based on the ZIPS forecasts. That said, they’re a useful tool to provide some context about what a player might do for the next few years.
On to the second part of the series.
| Five-Year WAR | +16.7 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2021 |
| Previous Rank | – |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2017 | 23 | +3.3 | Pre-Arb |
| 2018 | 24 | +3.5 | Arb1 |
| 2019 | 25 | +3.3 | Arb2 |
| 2020 | 26 | +3.3 | Arb3 |
| 2021 | 27 | +3.3 | Arb4 |
McCullers is about as high-risk, high-reward as a big leaguer gets, as he’s putting up one of the best combinations of strikeout and ground-ball rates in MLB, and doing it as a 22-year-old with high-end stuff. He’s also battled command problems at every stop of his professional career, and he started the year on the disabled list with a sore right shoulder. And while the data hasn’t come to any firm conclusions about the causation of pitch selection and injury rates, his extraordinarily high breaking-ball usage is a red flag for some teams. But right now, McCullers looks healthy, and has shown he is capable of pitching like an ace despite his youth. With the current shortage of available arms on the market, McCullers’ ability to be a difference maker both now and for the future would make him a highly coveted asset.
| Five-Year WAR | +17.9 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | TBD |
| Previous Rank | – |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2017 | 22 | +2.9 | Pre-Arb |
| 2018 | 23 | +3.5 | Pre-Arb |
| 2019 | 24 | +3.6 | Pre-Arb |
| 2020 | 25 | +3.8 | Arb1 |
| 2021 | 26 | +4.1 | Arb2 |
Quick note: Because we don’t know when teams are going to call up their prospects, we have to guess at when they’ll be arbitration eligible, but have put TBD in the control years row to reflect that uncertainty.
As far as prospects go, Crawford is a relatively safe bet, a terrific defensive shortstop who controls the strike zone. While no player is risk-free, it seems pretty likely that Crawford will have a big-league career, with the development of his power determining whether he becomes a decent regular or a high-end star. People optimistic about his development point out that Francisco Lindor was seen similarly a couple of years back, and he’s going to rank very highly in this year’s series, since developing power has made him one of the game’s best overall players. So there’s a pretty high floor and some real upside with Crawford, which makes him a valuable commodity even without reaching the big leagues.
| Five-Year WAR | +14.9 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | TBD |
| Previous Rank | – |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2017 | 22 | +2.2 | Pre-Arb |
| 2018 | 23 | +2.7 | Pre-Arb |
| 2019 | 24 | +3.2 | Pre-Arb |
| 2020 | 25 | +3.4 | Arb1 |
| 2021 | 26 | +3.4 | Arb2 |
On most prospect lists, Benintendi ranks behind Crawford, and behind a few of the players who didn’t make our Top 50 here, so I expect this placement will be met with some pushback. But prospect ranking is primarily an attempt to take the long view, forecasting a player’s eventual career, while we’re more concerned with what teams would value today, and the ability for Benintendi to help the big-league club in 2016 pushes him ahead of some other terrific prospects for our purposes. ZIPS and Steamer both think Benintendi would be something like an average big leaguer if promoted tomorrow, and his high-contact/gap-power game could help him develop into a very good player within a short period of time. Long term, he might not have quite as much upside as other prospects, but his ability to impact a contender down the stretch would make him a highly coveted asset if the Red Sox were willing to give him up. Instead, I’d expect Boston will simply keep him for themselves, and he’ll end the year as their starting left fielder.
| Five-Year WAR | +16.2 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | TBD |
| Previous Rank | – |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2017 | 23 | +2.7 | Pre-Arb |
| 2018 | 24 | +3.1 | Pre-Arb |
| 2019 | 25 | +3.4 | Pre-Arb |
| 2020 | 26 | +3.5 | Arb1 |
| 2021 | 27 | +3.5 | Arb2 |
Bregman is, in many ways, the infield version of Benintendi. He might not have as much upside as some other prospects, especially ones who are more likely to play shortstop in the big leagues, but Bregman could help any team in baseball tomorrow, and he probably won’t be a minor leaguer for much longer. What position he’ll eventually play in the majors is yet to be determined, but few question his offensive abilities, and even if he ends up settling in as a third baseman, he looks like a good player without needing much further development. If it weren’t for Luis Valbuena’s strong first half, Bregman would likely already be the Astros’ third baseman, and even with Valbuena playing well, Bregman is forcing his way into the picture. Expect him to be up soon, and for the Astros to rebuff any suitors trying to extract him from their organization.
| Five-Year WAR | +15.4 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2022 |
| Previous Rank | – |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2017 | 20 | +2.5 | Pre-Arb |
| 2018 | 21 | +2.9 | Pre-Arb |
| 2019 | 22 | +3.1 | Pre-Arb |
| 2020 | 23 | +3.5 | Arb1 |
| 2021 | 24 | +3.4 | Arb2 |
The full list of 19-year-olds who could strike out 27% of the batters they faced in the majors probably starts and ends with the Dodgers’ young lefty. Urias is a pretty special pitching prospect, and while age matters less for pitchers than it does for hitters, his polish at this point of his development is a very good sign for the future. If inning workloads weren’t an issue, Urias would rank higher still, but with enough innings saved for him to pitch out of the bullpen in the second half of the year, he retains some present value in addition to his long-term upside. For a team that wanted to build around young pitching, Urias would likely be one of the most sought after players in the game, as he’s proving why the Dodgers were unwilling to move him over the last few years.
| Team Control WAR Total | +11.0 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2019 |
| Previous Rank | #13 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2017 | 26 | +3.7 | Arb1 |
| 2018 | 27 | +3.8 | Arb2 |
| 2019 | 28 | +3.5 | Arb3 |
The most difficult players to place on this list every year are pitchers dealing with minor injuries, and Cole is perhaps the best example of that this year. Last year, in the midst of his breakout season, he was knocking on the door to the top 10, but this year, he’s now made two trips to the disabled list — including the one that has him sidelined currently — while posting the lowest strikeout and ground-ball rates of his career. But a triceps injury isn’t as scary as an elbow or shoulder injury, and unless the Pirates are covering for a larger problem, it’s perfectly reasonable to think Cole will be back on the mound and pitching like a front-line starter in the not too distant future. A contender with a healthy appetite for risk could probably make a case for Cole being in front of a bunch of guys still to come, and perhaps I’m overreacting his 2016 first half, but there’s certainly some real risk in giving up elite young talents for a presently injured pitcher who is performing worse than he ever has before. I could see an argument for Cole still being in the top 25 just like I could see an argument for him not being on the list at all, so he ends up here instead.
| Team Control WAR Total | +12.7 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2020 |
| Previous Rank | – |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2017 | 27 | +3.3 | Arb1 |
| 2018 | 28 | +3.4 | Arb2 |
| 2019 | 29 | +3.1 | Arb3 |
| 2020 | 30 | +2.9 | Arb4 |
Speaking of difficult-to-place pitchers, the wide range of opinions on Salazar is nearly unmatched among players on the list. On the one hand, he’s developed into one of the best pitchers in baseball on a per-innings basis; on the other hand, he’s still regularly getting lifted for pitch-count reasons in the sixth inning, and he’s missed starts with elbow soreness enough times — including the fact that he won’t pitch in the All-Star Game tonight because of what is being called minor elbow discomfort — that many of the game think it’s inevitable that his repaired UCL is going to give out sooner than later. But, of course, predicting injuries is a fool’s errand, and Salazar remains adamant that he’s making his first start out of the break, a start in which he very well could again look like one of the best pitchers on the planet. So, as with Cole, I don’t really know what to do with Salazar: he’s a quality starter making no money with four years of team control remaining after this season, but he’s also seen as something of a ticking time-bomb, so how much future value he’ll have remains in question. Like Cole, he ends up in the middle of the list, but without a strong conviction for his placement; one could reasonably move him up or down by a good amount.
| Five-Year WAR | +19.7 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2022 |
| Previous Rank | – |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2017 | 22 | +3.6 | Pre-Arb |
| 2018 | 23 | +4.0 | Pre-Arb |
| 2019 | 24 | +4.0 | Arb1 |
| 2020 | 25 | +4.0 | Arb2 |
| 2021 | 26 | +4.1 | Arb3 |
If we had done this list a couple of months ago, when Mazara was barnstorming the American League right after getting called up, he might very well have ranked in the top 25, but AL pitchers seem to have found some ways to pitch Texas’ young outfielder, and he’s cooled off quickly after his hot start. But it’s also important to keep in mind that he’s just 21 and is holding his own in the majors, which is a pretty good indicator of a guy with some real big-league abilities. The power isn’t fully developed yet, but with good contact skills and a swing that scouts project for long-term power, there’s plenty of offensive upside here. And like several of the prospects already mentioned, Mazara gets a boost for being able to contribute now, as well, as he’s not just a future-value prospect. There’s risk here, as there is any time you’re projecting power development, but Mazara has enough current and future value to be in high demand if the Rangers made him available.
| Five-Year WAR | +13.6 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2021 |
| Previous Rank | – |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2017 | 24 | +2.8 | Pre-Arb |
| 2018 | 25 | +2.9 | Pre-Arb |
| 2019 | 26 | +2.8 | Arb1 |
| 2020 | 27 | +2.6 | Arb2 |
| 2021 | 28 | +2.5 | Arb3 |
One guy you don’t need to project power development for? Miguel Sano. The Twins’ young slugger was miscast as an outfielder because of the team’s logjam at 1B/DH, but there are few young hitters in the game around whom teams would like to build their lineups before Sano. With top-shelf power and the willingness to take a walk, Sano looks like the heir apparent to Chris Davis’ three-true-outcomes throne. The strikeouts and the lack of defensive value might make him a less valuable player than some players with better all-around skills, but Sano’s power is unquestioned, and teams still pay a premium for sluggers who can hit the ball a long way. And Sano can unquestionably do that.
| Five-Year WAR | +19.7 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2021 |
| Previous Rank | #32 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2017 | 23 | +4.0 | Pre-Arb |
| 2018 | 24 | +4.1 | Arb1 |
| 2019 | 25 | +3.9 | Arb2 |
| 2020 | 26 | +3.9 | Arb3 |
| 2021 | 27 | +3.8 | Arb4 |
While Russell’s continuing contact problems make his development into a superstar unlikely, he continues to provide real value to the Cubs by playing a quality shortstop and holding his own offensively, showing enough power to offset some of the strikeouts, and drawing enough walks to keep his on base percentage at a respectable level. As a 22-year-old, there’s still plenty of room for Russell to develop, and as you can see from the ZIPS projections, there’s even reason to think he might take a big step forward as soon as next year. As a quality shortstop with some remaining upside, Russell remains a highly valuable piece of the Cubs’ future, though his swing-and-miss issues might cause him to top out as a good player rather than a great one.
| Rk | Pv | Player | Age | 2017 | 2018 | 2019 | 2020 | 2021 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 31 | 32 | Addison Russell | 22 | +4.0 Pre-Arb |
+4.1 Arb1 |
+3.9 Arb2 |
+3.9 Arb3 |
+3.8 Arb4 |
| 32 | – | Miguel Sano | 23 | +2.8 Pre-Arb |
+2.9 Pre-Arb |
+2.8 Arb1 |
+2.6 Arb2 |
+2.5 Arb3 |
| 33 | – | Nomar Mazara | 21 | +3.6 Pre-Arb |
+4.0 Pre-Arb |
+4.0 Arb1 |
+4.0 Arb2 |
+4.1 Arb3 |
| 34 | – | Danny Salazar | 26 | +3.3 Arb1 |
+3.4 Arb2 |
+3.1 Arb3 |
+2.9 Arb4 |
|
| 35 | 13 | Gerrit Cole | 25 | +3.7 Arb1 |
+3.8 Arb2 |
+3.5 Arb3 |
||
| 36 | – | Julio Urias | 19 | +2.5 Pre-Arb |
+2.9 Pre-Arb |
+3.1 Pre-Arb |
+3.5 Arb1 |
+3.4 Arb2 |
| 37 | – | Alex Bregman | 22 | +2.7 Pre-Arb |
+3.1 Pre-Arb |
+3.4 Pre-Arb |
+3.5 Arb1 |
+3.5 Arb2 |
| 38 | – | Andrew Benintendi | 21 | +2.2 Pre-Arb |
+2.7 Pre-Arb |
+3.2 Pre-Arb |
+3.4 Arb1 |
+3.4 Arb2 |
| 39 | – | J.P. Crawford | 21 | +2.9 Pre-Arb |
+3.5 Pre-Arb |
+3.6 Pre-Arb |
+3.8 Arb1 |
+4.1 Arb2 |
| 40 | – | Lance McCullers | 22 | +3.3 Pre-Arb |
+3.5 Arb1 |
+3.3 Arb2 |
+3.3 Arb3 |
+3.3 Arb4 |
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
Salazar must have been hard to place. So put him at #31 with Russell
I was pretty confused by this comment until I read the one below it.
hmm is there a reason that salazar has 31 by it, maybe in a former iteration of the list? but yah fyi dave
Thanks for the catch; that has been fixed. Yes, Salazar was a little higher previously, but moved down a few spots due to his elbow.
I am probably in the minority here, but I think there should be a minimum MLB experience level for players to be on the list. I think one season of service time should be the minimum. Otherwise, a prospect ranking to a certain degree.
I mean if the list is supposed to be purely trade value, if a prospect has more value than an mlb player then you should illustrate that int he list.
The internet is a big place, feel free to produce your own list that essentially says that players with less than a year of service time have no trade value.
Yes, I suspect you’re in the minority. The list ranks players by trade value. Prospects get traded, and there’s a lot of evidence that they’re valued very highly, as they should be, since a prospect that succeeds is the most valuable asset a team can have, due to the league’s salary escalation setup and the lack of impact talent in free agency. The best young, below market MLB players will dominate the top end of the list but it shouldn’t surprise you that the top prospects in baseball have a place among the top 50.
But this whole experiment is trade value, not a talent ranking (otherwise Kershaw wouldn’t have been an honorable mention). Teams don’t assess value with the requirement that the player has one year of service time. Assets are assets.
Yes, but GMs are also not in the position to assess future value in a vacuum. There is a component of win now that must be factored in for this value series to reflect real life. I maintain that future value should be scaled to be worth less than current value (or short term), because that is often a driving principle of trades. If that were not the case, no GM would ever deal a good prospect.
I’m pretty sure that is exactly what this piece attempts to do, whether or not you agree with the precise methodology. That’s why the author explicitly boosted Benintendi and Bregman, noting that both wouldn’t rank as high on prospect lists, but their entire future value would likely offer more immediate trade return due to their likely ability to perform in the majors immediately.
Lol
It must be fun having to write here when the boss is such a loopy clown. Urias and Cole aren’t in the same conversation.
Not that it needs to be said, but you don’t seem to understand the word “value”, then.
Go on, preening sycophant. Tell me how the value NOW of a proven topline starter is barely above that of someone who hasn’t yet proven they can get major league hitters out. Just because the guy runs the website doesn’t mean he isn’t up his own ass.
I’ll wait…
Urias struck out 27% of the batters he faced, so, I mean that’s a lot of major league hitters he got out right there. He also happens to be 19 with several more years of cheaper team control than Cole, but yeah…
As DC says IN THIS VERY THREAD, he is ranking by “present value”. Back to school with you.
Present value =/= present performance.
I think the rest of your user name got cut off, Guy Who Knows How to Be a D!ck
LOL wonder who the one down vote on this is!
¡Benintendi top 40 value!
A universal top 10 prospect who’s considered major league ready right now having top 40 trade value is somehow surprising to you?
you talking about swihart?
Damaso10 months 24 days ago
holy heck that is a ton of words spent talkkng about a 25yr old failure with a one week hot streak. couldn’t even wait a few weeks before splooging. never change, boston media.
and what is it with every good defensive boston kid (bradley, Iglesias, vazquez, etc.) being instantly awarded Super Elite Defense status before ever proving anything? just bizarre.
and then people are surprised when the red sox never live up to the hype.
Man was I prescient on that defensive overrating or what?
Vazquez the latest victim.
It’s cool that you moved on from having obnoxious meltdowns about Bogaerts and JBJ to completely different players without missing a beat lol
i am happy for red sox fans that a couple of these kids are starting to pan out (though with huge question marks still on those 2). but that doesn’t change what happened to swihart rodriguez owens johnson castillo vazquez marrero middlebrooks kelly ranaudo delarosa webster barnes workman etc etc etc etc etc
What evidence is there that this attrition rate is abnormal? From about 2003 to 2011, the Red Sox turned an incredible amount of their prospects into good players. Was the media biased AGAINST them back then?
If your whole gimmick is that everyone else can’t see that guys like JBJ suck because they are biased (towards a team that you are clearly obsessively mad about) then it’s on you not to be hilariously wrong so often.
I am happy that a couple of guys drafted in the last decade have finally started to break through from your perennially elite system.
And yes, that is an abnormal rate of attrition for top 25 and top 50 and top 100 ranked prospects.
M. Betts.
Bogaerts, Rizzo, Reddick…
Several of the guys you tagged as busts were also never super-highly ranked prospects. Cherry-picking every guy who failed to be a big MLB contributor is an exercise in intellectual dishonesty.
Yea, besides 2012, how many years has the Red Sox system failed to produce a top prospect that went on to be an all star? 2005? Maybe one of those years at the turn of the decade, I can’t remember how they were clustered. Decade of futility!
E- also the inclusion of a 24 year old and 23 year old, both of whom have been above replacement level, as failed prospects. Incredible.
i am pretty sure that everyone i named there was a top 100 prospect at some point. most in the top 50.
and i forgot cecchini too.
Toronto Blue Jays top 50 prospects since 2010:
Kyle Drabek, Brett Wallace, Travis d’Arnaud, Brett Lawrie, Anthony Gose, Dalton Pompey, Aaron Sanchez, Daniel Norris.
weird.. most of these guys suck. Someone should make 1,000,000,000 fangraphs comments about that.
Damaso, I was fairly sure that several of these guys weren’t top 100 prospects and it was not true that “most” were top 50, so I used Baseball America’s rankings (because they are not blocked by a paywall, so anyone else can look) to check. If I messed up any of these, let’s blame that on this being done quickly. Here were the top ranks I found for the guys you mentioned:
Swihart – 17th
Eduardo Rodriguez – 59th
Henry Owens – 40th
Brian Johnson – 82nd
Christian Vazquez – never made top 100
Deven Marrero – never made top 100
Will Middlebrooks – 51st
Casey Kelly – 24th (pre TJ)
De La Rosa (not drafted by Boston) – 90th
Webster – 49th (not drafted by Boston, sandwiched by two 80+ rankings)
Barnes – 40th
Ranaudo – never made top 100
Workman – never made top 100
Cecchini – 74th
So you managed to name fourteen prospects, four of which never cracked the top 100, two of which weren’t drafted by Boston and were essentially throw-ins in a salary dump (Webster & DLR).
Only four of them cracked the BA top 50 (so not “most”), and Kelly’s ranking was before a TJ surgery. This doesn’t look like a massively overhyped group of prospects, this looks like a large quantity of grade-B prospects who were ranked appropriately at the time and who failed to pan out. Swihart’s likely a bust, Kelly had TJ. This seems like normal farm system churn, and not the product of some hype machine delusion you’ve dreamed up.
Benintendi clearly has considerable trade value. He’s hit well immediately in the minors and plays a position with defensive value. He’s been ranked highly in midseason lists by by BA, BP, KLaw, etc, Even if he is a bust later, _at the moment_ he possesses trade value, as teams would be willing to give something up to have six cost-controlled (and non-guaranteed) years of Benintendi.
“Actually, that attrition rate is quite normal.” – Jack Zduriencik
Besides Pedroia, Papelbon, Lester, Ellsbury, Hanley Ramirez, Mookie Betts, Bogaerts, Anthony Rizzo, and Josh Reddick, when has any Sox prospect ever done anything? Don’t you know other teams are churning out multiple hall-of-famers from their minor leagues every year?
You forgot Youkilis, Freddy Sanchez, Buchholz, Justin Masterson, Brandon Moss, Jed Lowrie, I mean, even Kelly Shoppach ended up with 8 career WAR.
Like the Sox or not, there are few, if any, franchises that have seen a minor league system consistently produce above average to excellent major leaguers at the same pace over the last 15 years. So accusing Cameron of a blind spot by thinking their prospects now might eventually become successful big leaguers is just foolish, or worse, deliberately ignorant.
Yorue the worst
No yo ure
When was Swihart considered “major league ready right now”?
Answer: never
He wasn’t ready for the majors when he was promoted due to emergency, and by the time he adjusted to the majors and succeeded at the level (for multiple months last season to end the year) he was no longer a “prospect”.
Try again though!
If you’re tired of Damaso’s endless complaining about Dave Cameron’s (alleged) pro-Boston bias, installing BanGraphs simply mutes his comments: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/bangraphs/jbklgbooodaeiefiamgacpccjbfelpaj?hl=en-US
Updates made yesterday to now also mute the guy whining about Cameron’s ranking of Joc Peterson last year and generally being hostile toward other commenters.
stop stealing my downvotes.
I’m so confused as to why you’re here. Every time there’s a Cameron article you respond with some inane, tired complaint. If you disagree automatically with his opinion, why bother reading?
I think Cameron is amazing and revolutionary, but has blind spots that have hurt his predictions.
If it bugs you to hear disagreements, why read the comments?
There’s plenty of thoughtful disagreement here (along with some drivel). You’re not contributing to it.
Hmm. I’d say I support my arguments more than most.
“Hmm. I’d say I support my arguments more than most.”
That might be true, in that you can “support” a claim such as “Clinton would be a better president than Trump” by saying “Clinton has blond hair”.
Just because you say things in a support format doesn’t mean they actually support your claims.
Apparently the filter doesn’t work.
Well played, I should take my own advice.
YOur’e the weust
Finally, a way to censor opinions I don’t agree with on the internet
Your the wrost
Continuing my Kyle Schwarber discussion/obsession of yesterday, I’m now a little confused. I first figured “well, this ends the discussion – there’s no way he’s higher than Mazara or Russell” but then I saw Sano’s write-up and now I’m not so sure. Schwarbs has a better bat than Sano, and “teams still pay a premium for sluggers who can hit the ball a long way.” C’mon, Dave, tell me my guy is coming tomorrow!! (I can’t believe that I’m actually rooting for a list like this)
Schwarber isn’t on the list. For one, he’s injured, so he has zero present value, which matters. And I don’t think the industry agrees with you on the comparison of their offensive values. Schwarber simply isn’t as valuable as Cubs fans have been led to believe.
I’m tempted to give you a thumbs-down for crushing my dreams, but I’ll just go and be sad now.
What level do you believe he’ll produce to? Where do your concerns lie? Are you discounting the possibility that he plays catcher in the future? I’m curious, because Schwarber is the one guy I know I’m simply not rational about. I see him as a future high walk rate, acceptable OBP, 30+ HR, below average but not horrendous LF who gets 30-50 starts a year behind the dish, and to me that’s extremely valuable.
First of all, he blew up his knee, and you can’t assume a guy would come back from that with the ability to play catcher, especially when he was a big bodied fringe defensive catcher already.
And he’s not proven at all in the OF and may end up a glorified version of Vogelbach defensively, plus we haven’t established the extent to which his large platoon splits from 2015 are a legitimate worry.
I get the excitement about the guy to some extent, but Sano has demonstrated at least minimum proficiency at 3B, a more premium position than LF, does not have the question of platoon problems, and is approaching a season more of ABs thatb establish his baseline. Plus he has two working knees.
Frankly, if I were the Cubs and people were willing to pay for Schwarber as a future middle of the order Catcher, I would sell immediately, but I would be shocked if that were the case
Someone thought Jesus Montero could Catch, so I guess anything is possible.
What’s the big difference between Sano and Schwarber? They seem more similar than dissimilar.
One has a torn ACL? One can play the field (albeit not well)?
Fair point sir.
I am not a Cubs’ fan, but would be delighted if my hometown club could acquire him on the basis that he is not one of the top 60 properties in baseball. I don’t think that he is going to be a catcher, but I do think that he is going to be one of the best hitters in the game and better than Sano. This may be a minority opinion among people in the game.
Ok, but note that Sano has been significantly better thus far.
O_O
This time last year, Schwarber didn’t make the list and I’m not sure that he significantly improved his trade value, so I’d vote for missing the list.
Well, I’d argue he raised his trade value a lot between the publishing of this list last year and the end of the season, and the injury to start this season basically undid that progress, to be precise.
Same verdict, different path.
Does he? In half the games played, Schwarber has a .360 wOBA compared to Sano’s .375 wOBA. Maybe I am just higher an Sano’s potential than you are, but I think Sano is going to be a guy who hits 40+ home runs a few times while putting up a good amount of walks to go along with them. I see Schwarber as a similar hitter, but on a lower scale.
On the other hand, Schwarber hasn’t looked nearly as inept in the outfield, and potentially still has huge positional upside if he can make it work behind the plate.
Ummm. no one thinks he can play catcher. And he tore his ACL and UCL while fielding….you think he comes back from that and is an average OF defender?
Well it’s simply not true that no one thinks he can play catcher. It may be a popular opinion, but a pair of guys I think we all respect (Maddon and Epstein) don’t share that opinion.
“Many pitchers and coaches were impressed with Schwarber’s improvement behind the plate. Schwarber’s season-ending diagnosis came on the day he was scheduled to catch Jason Hammel.
The plan was for Schwarber to catch most of Hammel’s starts and move behind the plate as part of double-switches when he wasn’t playing left field.”
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/ct-cubs-schwarber-out-for-year-spt-20160408-story.html
“Asked whether Schwarber’s injury would keep him from playing catcher again, Epstein said: “It all depends how the surgery goes and how well the rehab goes. If everything goes the way we want it to go with the surgery and the rehab and he comes out the other side with full range of motion, there’s a chance it won’t impact him at all going forward.”
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/15165331/kyle-schwarber-chicago-cubs-season-torn-acl
No one thinks Schwarber can play catcher except Schwarber, Epstein and Maddon. Three fairly significant exceptions to the accepted “consensus”.
I was under the impression (I don’t watch many Cubs games) that Schwarber wasn’t going to stay at catcher and that he was pretty awful in the outfield. Are you saying that has changed? I’m actually asking.
He had a few high profile blunders in the outfield in the playoffs, but too much was made of them. He’s below average out there but not horrendous. I understand the guy doesn’t have the most visually appealing build for an outfielder, but he was an all-state linebacker in Ohio, one of the 5 premier CFB recruiting states in the country. His athleticism is definitely underrated, and it’s mostly due to his body type.
As for his catching… yeah, it wasn’t good when he played there last year. Epstein has said, even since the injury, that Schwarber will continue to be used at catcher in the future however. So while it IS unlikely he ever sticks there, it’s not out of the realm of possibility that he figures it out back there yet.
It’s not surprising that the people who will benefit the most from Schwarber having perceived defensive value say it. Most independent observers dont believe it. I’ll take the objective viewpoints over the ones with an interest in maintaining value. Again, he has a torn ACL and UCL. And he was never considered an average fielder…
Before he tore up his knee, I thought that Schwarber had a chance to play a decent amount of games per season at catcher. That is no longer the case. He’s going to be a LF until such a time as he can’t play that either and gets traded to the A.L. Meanwhile his Z-Contact% is worse than Sano’s and he has less power.
At this point, a full 10% of Schwarber’s career plate appearances came in the 2015 postseason and excluding them is nonsensical. With those appearances against (significantly) above average pitching included, his wOBA rises to a tidy .378.
And Schwarber’s potential for providing defensive value easily exceeds Sano’s.
So you’re saying that Boston would, or at least should say, “no” to a Benintendi for Kershaw swap? I’d put the chances of them turning down that offer at ~1%.
If you think the Red Sox would trade Benintendi for a half season of Clayton Kershaw, you simply don’t understand how teams value players.
Kershaw is under contract through 2018 after which he has two player options.
Read the honorable mentions piece.
As I noted yesterday when discussing Kershaw’s value, he has the right to void his contract after any season in which he’s traded. That makes him a rental to any team acquiring him, so his trade value is significantly diminished relative to his actual value. In practicality, this option means he’s so much more valuable to the Dodgers than he is to any other team that it’s basically impossible for there to be a deal in which it makes sense for LAD to trade Kershaw.
Just read that. Certainly a value-killer. Still, I don’t like how prospect-heavy the list seems so far. Let’s say Boston were to call Seattle regarding Kyle Seager, who I’m guessing isn’t on this list. I don’t think it would be far-fetched for Seattle to ask for Benintendi as part of the deal.
In fact, as a Mariners fan I’d be disappointed in DiPoto if he swapped Seager for Benintendi straight up.
I don’t think you’ll be saying that when Seager is making $19 million per year for his age 30-33 seasons.
That seems like decent value. Given his skill set I’d be surprised if he wasn’t still a league-average player by then.
19.5 MM a year for a 3.5-4.5 WAR position player (5.5-4.3 MM per win) is going to seem like a bargain in 2019/2020. Seager has quite a bit of trade value, especially since he is on pace for a career best offensive season.
I was sad that the elder Seager didn’t get #41-50 or the honorable mentions, but there’s no way teams will value him–at age 28–as though the first half of 2016 is his established offensive level. At $19 million per year, a 3.5 WAR 3rd baseman is a good contract for his employers, but not one that provides piles of surplus value. Combine that with the downside risk (players age, serious injuries occur to older hitters more often than we like to think)…
Besides, his value for Boston (in this example) would be what he can do to help them now, not what he’ll be doing in five years. If 5-7 year production was the deciding factor then no player over age 25 would ever get traded.
…but then consider what Beane got for Donaldson.
As a Mariners season ticket holder, I’d make that trade in a heartbeat and call up Benintendi to play LF. Makes the team worse this year and better each of the next few years.
You really don’t think Dombrowski would consider that? Dombrowski has a history of trading for veterans, and Kershaw would instantly make them the best team in the AL. Also, they would then potentially be in the pole position to bid for the best pitcher alive at the end of the season (which they would surely be in on).
Surely it is the Dodgers who would have no business considering that trade.
You think there is value in having the pole position in a competition which is really going to be about how much money you’re offering? The trade is for a half season of Kershaw. And, he’s injured right now.
This idea that trading for a player who will be a FA gives you a better chance to sign him seems really faulty. Players want the best contract in the best environment. It matters little who has employed them for the last 3 months.
There’s some value in giving a player the opportunity to experience your city, culture, etc. before they make their decision — assuming your city, culture, etc. are attractive and you have the money to approach, match, or exceed the money that other teams would likely offer.
So, a trade to Boston would likely hurt their chances in resigning him? (I kid – Boston’s a fine city once you get past the bigots and elitists)
I think there is value there for some teams and not others. For example, players who have played for the Yankees generally want to stay Yankees. A few months playing for the Phillies gave the Phillies the upper hand in the Cliff Lee sweepstakes. Boston is a bit polarizing in this respect, but if I am Dombrowski and I am confident in my organization, I think having Kershaw win a WS in that great baseball environment would give them the upper hand.
This is just stupid. You are assuming Boston will win the WS? what if they come close and Kershaw pitches poorly, wouldnt that make it less likely (in the way you view the world) that he signs with them? There are very very very few players that decide where they will play based on the aesthetics. And, if we’re choosing aesthetics, i’m sure LA > Boston.
I’m not assuming anything other than that familiarity with an organization is an advantage (or disadvantage) when negotiating long term employment. There are countless examples of players choosing to stay with an organization they know rather than going elsewhere.
If there is an advantage or a disadvantage then there isnt an actual advantage….there are WAY more examples of players choosing the organization that they didnt just play a half season with
“If there is an advantage or a disadvantage then there isnt an actual advantage.”
…hard to argue with that.
it’s what you wrote: “I’m not assuming anything other than that familiarity with an organization is an advantage (or disadvantage)” which is exactly my point. if it can be an advantage or a disadvantage and there’s little way of telling in advance then it isnt an advantage…and should really stop being discusses as if it is one.
There are, of course, ways for an organization to know in advance if players are likely to enjoy playing for them. Teams know if their players are generally happy or not. Everyone in baseball knows which teams are desired employers for the players and which aren’t. Also, if you are a team that has a player presently on your roster that you want to resign in the future, it is entirely in your control how you treat them leading into those negotiations. This is not some black box.
The Dodgers would consider that trade if they had a losing record and if he was truly on the last year of his contract, but as it stands they are in contention, and they have him for either two or four more years after this one. That is why they would not consider it, from a baseball perspective.
It’s not really half a season of Kershaw. At the very least it’s half a season and the possibility that he will not opt out. Even if he does opt-out, you’d think that Boston would have the inside edge on resigning him (especially if they do well in the playoffs).
I personally would be shocked if Boston wouldn’t at least consider it. LA, on the other hand, wouldn’t think about it for a second.
Why in god’s name would Boston have the inside track? Kershaw would absolutely opt out and head back to the west coast b/c he likes it there or sign with the team offering him the most money. Neither of those gives Boston the “inside track”
On the ‘possibility he will not opt out:’
If he has TJS, then there’d be some pretty strong reason to believe he wouldn’t opt out.
But: let’s imagine he’s traded tomorrow to Boston, and that he just fills out his RoS projection, ending the year with ~9 WAR in 2016. So then he’s posed with the possibility of hitting FA at Age 29, averaging 8 WAR over his last 3 years before FA. Kershaw is guaranteed $140M after 2016 on his current contract.
Most useful comp is David Price. He hit FA at 30, averaging 4-6 WAR over his last 3 years before FA, depending on whether you use RA9 or FIP. He got 7/210 with an opt-out, and Cameron’s thrown out the idea that’s equivalent of 7/240. It’s certainly not lower than 7/210, in other words. Kershaw would get *substantially* more than that.
So barring TJS, the chances of Kershaw opting out are *about* zero. It’s the difference of $100M, conservatively.
The A’s traded Addison Russell+ for Shark not too long ago. Pretty sure a half season of the best pitcher on the planet would net significantly more.
A year and half of Samardzija, and Jason Hammel went to the A’s as well.
A half year of Kershaw (+5 WAR) is worth just as much as those two could produce in two combined seasons.
Samardzjia was under contract for the following year, he wasnt a rental. Meaning the A’s not only got more out of him but they could also recoup some of the value they gave up by flipping him next year instead of losing him to free agency at the end of the year.
A trade universally lauded as not a good one for the A’s, in which they also got an above average pitcher? A trade in which the A’s would totally take a do-over and the Cubs would not? that’s your evidence?
You shouldn’t use trades in which one side overpaid as an example of the overall trade value of certain pieces.
Boston would never have dealt Russell+ for that package, by the way.
A “Kershaw trade” is mostly academic anyway, one because the Dodgers would never ever trade him unless Friedman wants to be run out of town, and second because his contract literally changes based on whether he is traded, meaning he is actually more valuable to keep than to trade, contractually.
Big thumbs up – was going to post the exact same thing. It’s fun to discuss but ultimately pointless because the top 5-10 players in the game almost never get traded, especially if they are still under 28 or so.
If the Dodgers were out of the playoff race couldn’t they basically loan out Kershaw for half a season, get a prospect in return as well as saving some salary, and Kershaw gets a vacation in Boston and the chance to win a ring. Win-win-win for everyone.
It’s not that I don’t agree with you, but I hope we don’t get this for every player on the list. That also might be because just the thought of trading Kershaw saddens me, lol.
Urias! The range I thought he would be in was around 25-35, so I am happy with 36 here. I’ve only gotten to see him once in person so far, but he has got some great great stuff. I can’t wait to see what he does out of the bullpen later this year.
Dude has a xFIP- of 91, which:
1. As a 19-year-old? Holy sh–
2. Guess the last Dodger lefty to come up and put up a 91 xFIP- for his first three seasons. You guessed it.
Based on the fact that he had about 3 blow up starts, that is incredibly impressive.
It’s 36 innings, not 3 seasons.
fact vs. fun fact
I think you had the right idea last year when prospects with no service time were mostly left off the list. It’s hard to imagine a team not biting your hand off if you offered them Matt Carpenter for Benintendi or Sal Perez for Bregman.
You really think Carpenter will have more value than Benintendi over the next 3-5 years? Beintendi is cheap and MLB ready. Ditto Bregman.
Trade value has a lot more to do with the present than the next 3-5 years, that differentiation was made in this very article. On the same note, Carpenter loses trade value because he is on the DL right now
I don’t understand the consensus certainty here that Benintendi is MLB ready right now.
I look at his player page and see 200 PA’s at AA where he’s posted a 130 wRC+ with a lack of weaknesses (13.8% K, 8.7% BB, .209 ISO). He can play centerfield and maybe steal some bases. I get being excited about his rapid progress and optimistic about his future, but I’m not seeing what screams “skip AAA and promote this guy right away”.
A look at his splits might help. After a short phase he’s absolutely crushing it the last 4 weeks.
OK, I set his game log to the latest month and see a 182 wRC+ over 121 PA’s. His BAPIP is somewhat high at .349, but not outrageous. (Of course the flip side of that is that he must have hit really poorly in those first 80 PA’s in AA.) That’s really good, albeit in a not terribly large sample, so I can get on board with the logic of moving him up to AAA for a new challenge. I’m just skeptical how much 120 PA’s of tearing up AA gives us any certainty that a player should be an “average major leaguer” today.
It was about 20 horrendous PA’s in AA that drags Benintendi’s numbers down. He went 2-20 to start in Portland. Since that time, he’s been on fire. It’s also not just the numbers, it’s how he’s achieving them. He’s fouling off pitches and hitting rockets after 10+ pitch AB’s. He’s waiting back on breaking balls in two strike counts, and shooting them to left field for base hits. He’s clearing out inside heat, crushing no doubters to RF. This latest hot streak is more in line with more than a year’s worth of outstanding production, and likely more predictive than a very brief bump in the road upon being promoted to AA.
With that said he didn’t look great in the futures game.
With that said, no one trades a first ballot HOF’er in the prime of their career. Except the Red Sox. Ahem.
The value part of this discussion seems to elude many fans. In these trades you propose, as well as the hypothetical Benintendi-for-Kershaw above, you are weighing skill too much and salary/controlled years too little. And I think the reason for that is because the benefits of having a cheap player for many years aren’t as easy to see as the benefits of having a hitter like Matt Carpenter.
Those cheap players can dramatically affect a team’s ability to sign FA in the offseason because it allows them to hedge their bets. Teams can use the money they are saving on those players to improve the team. Benitendi for Carpenter alone probably makes the talent level of the Cardinals worse, but Benintendi + newly acquired FA due to money saved makes the team better.
I would never in a million years deal away Benintendi or Bregman for those very desirable pieces.
What is partly being left out of the discussion here is that both prospects were older/closer to the majors when drafted, were just drafted a year ago, and have made rocket progress. Both show a feel for the game that is less about projectable skills or physical ability and more about “wow, these guys seem to have a special feel for playing the game of baseball”. Their instant impact and floors look so promising that the very real risk (one that exists for all prospects) that they don’t hit their ceilings isn’t as big a hit.
Most prospects, even high ones, have enough downside or flaws that you can question holding on to them when the right trade offer comes your way. Even Moncada in Boston has shown enough lack of polish that maybe, just maybe, he doesn’t end up good enough. But I lump these two guys in the same category as, for example, Mookie Betts a few seasons ago…they show you something else that makes it look like failure is almost certain to not happen.
Maybe I was mistaken on Bradley, unless Cameron is huuuuuuge on him. I expected him to rate the top 50, but I’m not so sure about top 30 when we’re taking guys like Bregman and Benintendi into account.
I’m torn, though, because I have to imagine he’d at least rate an honorable mention.
I’m guessing that he’ll be in the next batch, but I have no idea where I would rate him. It’s hard to believe that the guy who was atrocious in ’13-’14 could be so good in ’15-’16.
I’m a bit surprised to see Sano so high. Young, cheap, controllable power is obviously valuable but I thought he might take a bigger hit because he is essentially a DH.
I’m probably wrong but I wouldnt think teams would value that type of player as much.
Sano has actually been fine at 3B, albeit over a small sample. Presumably the Twins move Plouffe (since he can’t play anywhere else either) soon and let Sano become an All-Star at third.
Dave,
At this juncture I figure Andrew Miller has not made the list. Could you briefly discuss him and whether he is hard to value? Arguably the best reliever in the league signed to an absurdly team-friendly deal for a remaining 2.5 years. And the writers here have acknowledged time and again that WAR undervalues relievers for at least two reasons: they often outperform their FIP and the innings they pitch are often more important. Moreover, we have seen that teams (perhaps correctly, perhaps not) pay more than expected for high-performing relievers mid-season.
A reliever contract can be only so “team-friendly”, and I think that line is well short of “absurdly.”
I bet one of the top 5 relievers in the game, striking out more than a batter an inning, signed to an affordable contract ranks higher than #31.
@bip: That’s kind of semantics, but the market pays ~8mil per win right now, right? That’s about what Miller is owed per year. Is it crazy to say he’s a 4+ win player when we account for the adjustments for high-leverage + ace relief? And is a 3 win surplus per season not “absurd” value? I don’t know. I’d like to hear Dave’s thoughts though.
I mean, think about it, you’re looking at a list of guys who are being paid league minimum or close to it, under team control for longer, who project to be better than Miller by WAR. You can argue Miller is underrated by WAR but probably not enough to make him better than young, all-star level position players. You can argue those players are young and volatile, but probably no more volatile than a reliever. If I was making this list, I would probably briefly consider and then dismiss Miller, and really, almost any other player on a free agent contract as well.
I can see it going either way. Limited team control and age are the biggest factors holding down Millers value. Not a single reliever made the list last year so you are probably right. Still I can see team giving up more for Miller than say Carlos Martinez.
I can’t, but at this point we’re too far in, Miller is not top-30.
I’ve come to the conclusion Miller wont make the list. Now I am wondering more generally if this list undervalues relievers as a whole.
It comes down to longevity. Its the same reason why teams dont give long term contracts to relievers (usually). They don’t last long.
Realisitcly what is the shelf life of a good reliever? 2-3 years? Maybe 4-5 on the really high end for the elite guys? Compare that to most of the guys on this list who will be solid contributors for the better part of a decade. Hell, most have 2-3 years before they can even file for arbitration. no reliever, no matter how good, can compete with that.
Relievers also tend to be older/have more service time because most have to fail as starters before they become relievers. Thats another knock against their value.
I would bet that Betances is the only Yankee to make this list.
Looking back no reliever made the list last year. Interesting fact when you consider what the Astros game up for Ken Giles or Boston gave up for Kimbrel. Relievers have more trade value than people like to admit.
Boston got a bit screwed on the Kimbrel deal. Every deal doesn’t set the market. The Shelby Miller trade doesn’t change what most people think that profile is worth.
It wasn’t so much that the team “got screwed” in the deal, but rather that it overpaid.
And why? Not because it “makes mistakes”, but rather because the team wanted to secure an elite bullpen upgrade early (and SD didn’t have to accommodate) and so had to give SD reason to act sooner, and also possibly because SD was pushing for other names that Boston didn’t want to give up and so rather than risk losing the deal the team overpaid with expendable guys (and every piece given up was expendable) to get it done.
It was apparently worth it for Boston to pay extra when it did. Given how the pitching contract market worked out, and given the Giles trade return, it would seem the team was actually smart to act when it did, even if it had to pay a bit of a premium.
Returning to the point then: so yes, that deal is not one that should be viewed as a trade value litmus test. Sometimes teams overpay willingly, but that doesn’t automatically raise the bar. Likewise, just because the Donaldson trade happened doesn’t mean you can start calling teams about their pre-FA contract stars and expect the teams to hand the stars over.
Or maybe the Astros and Red Sox made bad trades?
At some point they stop being bad trades and become the norm. How many bad trades does it take before it become the going rate? Chapmann is the only elite reliever who was recently traded for a lot less and there was a good reason for the discount. Donaldson and Frazier were recently traded for less than Giles and Kimbrel. Relievers have value and labeling every trade as a “bad deal” doesn’t make it any less true.
At some point they stop being bad trades and become the norm.
I dont follow that logic. They can be the norm and still be bad. Making a bunch of bad trades doesn’t somehow make them good.
I’m not saying relievers dont have value. They may even be undervalued. But its equally possible that some trades are just not as good as others.
It doesn’t make them good but it does make it the market rate. I’m not concerned with good vs bad trade here; I am think about what the market is willing to pay for player X.
I’m not concerned with good vs bad trade here; I am think about what the market is willing to pay for player X
i find that to be a strange way of looking at things. Especially on a site like Fangraphs because it seems to fly in face of everything that sabrmetrics, analytics etc etc stand for. Exploiting market inefficiencies and all that.
The whole statistical revolution came about because conventional wisdom (IE: the market) was wrong. What the market said was valuable really wasnt. For ~100 years a guy who drove in 120 RBI’s was considered to be the peak of value. Then a few guys came along and showed that no, it really wasnt.
So for someone to come along and say “I dont care about good or bad I just care about what the market value is” seems like a pretty strange statement. If you dont care about good or bad then how do you evaluate if what the market is saying is correct?
He’s a free agent after 2018.
Probably the only guys in that class that are going to make this list are Harper, Donaldson, Fernandez and Machado.
Also, reliever.
Yes, if McCutchen can’t make the list (even with his struggles), ain’t no reliever with 2.5 years of team control going to.
Miller didn’t get serious consideration. Betances got a mention from one of my friends in the game, and would command the most in return of the Yankees three relievers if they made him available, but he also wasn’t particularly close to making the list.
As far as Miller goes, his current trade value is likely in the same range as what Kimbrel’s was over the winter; the Red Sox traded for the right to pay Kimbrel $37 million over three years, Miller has ~$23M left over 2.5 years remaining, and both are in the conversation for best reliever in baseball. Kimbrel cost a little more per year, but is also younger and gets a small boost for being a capital-c Closer.
Kimbrel brought back two good-not-great prospects and some filler, and it was generally considered to be a fantastic deal for San Diego. Would you trade any of the guys on the list so far for the package of talent the Red Sox gave up for Kimbrel? I wouldn’t.
Miller’s a valuable player, and teams are adjusting upwards the prices they’re willing to pay for relievers, but they’re not giving up their very best young talents for a bullpen arm.
Astros gave up some pretty good young talent for Ken Giles. What about Carlos Martinez for Vincent Velasquez, Derek Fisher, Thomas Eshelman and Brett Oberholtzer? That would require some serious consideration.
I dont think any of those players were top 100 prospects. There are leget concerns about Velasquez. I’d imagine almost every team would prefer CMart than those four.
Velazquez by himself is coming close to matching Martinez present value when you consider he has 2 more years of team control than Martinez. Still hard to factor that into trade value since he was traded before the 2016 season when his value was obviously lower.
Thanks, Dave! The Kimbrel comparison is compelling. I take it you think the Giles trade is not a good comparison because of some combination of 1. More cost-controlled years and 2. Houston made a mistake that is unlikely to be repeated. (But, on the other hand, cant you argue that Miller and Betances are a LOT better than Giles was?)
In any event, thanks for your thoughts.
Manuel Margot was just ranked the #16 prospect in baseball by BaseballProspectus and is ranked about the same in future WAR by KATOH. Asuaje projects as a league average MI according to Longenhagen in a recent chat. Guerra has performed really poorly but was considered by some as the prize of the deal. I think you may be underrating the Kimbrel return when you say “two good-not-great prospects and some filler.” I think the Kimbrel and Giles’ trades may have actually produced two of the better returns of the last five years.
Andrew Miller has terrific ACTUAL trade value, as in “he might actually get traded, so expect a rather high actual return if it happens”.
Most of the guys on this list are only being valued hypothetically, and would never actually be available. The value they would offer if you tried to be a realistic package for them would be pretty hefty.
I don’t see how Benintendi can fit onto the roster with Ryan Kalish, Rusney Castillo and Ryan Westmoreland all in the midst of all-star caliber seasons
Westmoreland had to leave baseball due to a tragedy, so it’s not really fair to throw him in there
Huh? Kalish was never considered as good a prospect and had so many injuries.
Castillo is not really comparable because he was much older and you still don’t know how players from Cuba can adjust.
Finally Westmoreland… Shame on you!
Kalish had three neck/shoulder surgeries in about a years time. And still saw PT at the ML level. Westmoreland had a deeply unfortunate, and totally unforeseeable, health issue that ended his career. Get. A. Life. Troll.
I’m enjoying the trade value series as usual, Dave. The presentation is easy on the eyes too.
But is it possible to get a rolling full list at the bottom of each new article? I know it’s a minor squabble but it would be nice to make a quick reference instead of having two or more tabs open. Thanks!
The list of 19 year olds to strike out 27% of batters faced starts with Bob Feller (27.2% over 62 IP in 1936) and Dwight Gooden (31.8% over 218 IP in 1984). Nice for Urias to be in rare company. In the 21st century, the key will be how the Dodgers handle his innings and growth.
Going to have to assume at this point in the list that Odubel Herrera didn’t make the list. I guess he has plenty of trade value, just not top 50?
Dave, as a Red Sox fan, I have to say, I think you’re rating prospects too high. I love Benintendi, but I think it’d be insane to take him over Pederson or McCullers or Odor. And I think Reyes and Giolito are WAY too high. Pitching prospect success rates are awful. I wouldn’t put any pitcher in the top 100 until they have already succeeded at the major league level
Does ANYONE doubt the Red Sox would deal Benintendi for Stanton??? (And I love Benintendi.)
Yes. Stanton has shown some real holes in his game and is set to make a fortune
Even if they did do it, that doesn’t make it a good trade though.
The reason Benintendi wouldn’t be traded for Stanton is because Benintendi’s low cost allows the Red Sox to sign a free agent who can provide something similar to what Stanton provides – namely, a power hitting RHH. The reverse is not true – Stanton does not allow the Red Sox to sign a player that provides what Benintendi provides, which is low salary relative to his production. That is not something you can buy with money.
I do. I’m not even 100% certain that the Red Sox would claim Stanton off waivers right now under his current deal. If Stanton was a free agent, would he get 12 years/319 million on the open market? Maybe? But are you going to trade a top 10 prospect for the rights to that? Hell no.
It’s not a best player list, it’s a trade value list. Despite prospects having very short track records, or even being completely unproven, those guys have a ton of value. Teams love contract control and upside.
I think Dave is using a best value/$ & control as his guide and I don’t think that is how team’s look at trades. There is a considerable discount to future vs present performance in trades. As you extend out a player forecast, the accuracy decreases (i.e we are much better at forecasting 2017 value vs 2019 value) and so that volatility discounts future value against present value and I don’t think that is being considered strongly enough in these rankings.
A prospect like Benintendi has value, but its not anywhere near a guy like Salazar who’s a young controllable guy who’s shown to be a top 2-3 starter in the MLB.
Salazar is not a top 2-3 starter.
Well he’s a top 2-3 starter on his own team, at least.
Yes – I meant #2-#3 starter, not top. My error.
Absolutely, you’re right that future value needs to be discounted vs present value (as I think the article states). You feel the discount rate represented here isn’t steep enough. You may be right. The article theoretically isn’t looking at what the discount rate ought to be, but what it actually is in the minds of the people who actually make the trades, and those who advise them. Since most of these guys don’t get traded, and those trades that do happen are confounded by many factors, it’s challenging to prove one way or another. “An objectively most valuable assets” type article (fully valuing defense, and properly discounting prospect risk, and power, and other adjustments) would be interesting, and should yield a different list.
In relative terms though, we’ve seen a lot more top prospects traded in a package for an established player than versus a trade where you see a bunch of established guys traded for one prospect.
But guys like McCullers, Pederson and Odor also have lots of team control and upside, but you also know they’ll produce for you, whereas with Benintendi or Crawford or Bregman you don’t and there’s a very good chance at least one of Giolito or Reyes will bust completely. I think these prospects are way too high even considering upside and team control
This is a misconception. Because we have major league data on McCullers, Pederson, and Odor we are more confident in the range of their likely projections going forward, but it is indeed possible that their performance will decline rather than be maintained or even improve. Furthermore, all of those players have significant warts. McCullers has the second worst BB% among pitchers with at least fifty innings this season. Pederson has a 27.9% K% at the major league level to go along with mediocre defense. Odor has a career OBP of .304 and is below average defensively while having already used up three years of team control.
It is hard to believe that a 5’10, 170lbs outfielder would be so highly rated and yet, having seen him in person, I have to agree with it. Benintendi has an uncanny ability to barrel pitches. I have zero doubt that their respective teams would trade Pederson, McCullers, or Odor for him. Alex Reyes didn’t belong on this list at all, but the other prospects are appropriately ranked.
I imagine Javier Baez won’t make the list, but I would take him over Russell if I was the acquiring team. Higher offensive upside, similar present value, with Baez being a much more well-rounded player today.
interesting interpretation of the data… I suspect you are in the minority on all of your statements above (except him not making the list.)
Baez is a tremendous base-runner, whereas Russell is just neutral or slightly additive as a base-runner. Russell is viewed as more reliable, particularly on defense, but the margin between them isn’t much. Baez has a better arm, Russell has better hands, both are plus infielders. Baez is a better hitter than Russell today and has more raw power and speed. Russell has a much more advanced approach than Baez, but the SLG for Baez makes up for his relative OBP deficiencies. It’s also worth noting that Baez has a lower K% than Russell does right now.
well, the data doesn’t support that Baez is a “tremendous” baserunner and normalized to 500 PAs their career BsRs are only about 1 run apart…
If you compare age-similar seasons, Russell is a similar batter (with better K and BB rates, lower power)
And the fielding is just not even close based on the metrics.
So….
whoa I guess Kevin Kiermaier will make top 30!
He was in the “didn’t make it” preface.
He already noted that teams don’t value defense in trades much.
So why is Addison Russel on the list? With a 90 wRC+, you better play good defense.
Dave answered it himself in the write-up:
“As a 22-year-old, there’s still plenty of room for Russell to develop, and as you can see from the ZIPS projections, there’s even reason to think he might take a big step forward as soon as next year.”
If teams thought that Russell won’t ever be more than a 90 wRC+ hitter, then he’s not at #31 on this list. (FWIW, Simmons has a career 83 wRC+.)
2016 Anagram Value: #40 to #31:
#40: LL Muscle Cancer
#39: Dwarf Crop J
#38: Brand New Diet Nine
#37: Rex Bagelman
#36: Our Jail Is U
#35: Gil Erector
#34: Zany Salad Ran
#33: Amazon Marra
#32: Mis Angelou
#31: Nerds Dial Souls
All Our Jail Is Belong to Yu
One of you guys should do a Brand New Diet Nine at spring training for all those guys who show up in the best shape of their lives.
Wow. #31 is dead on.
“Gil Erector”
Also a pretty good female porn name.
I just wish Fangraphs player pages would list how many years players had under team control. Unless I’m missing it, their contracts just look like one year contracts. I tried to see how many of the top 40 I could get (got started a day late) and found it tedious to look up and then go count years of service time. Maybe something to think about (the graphics in this article would be awesome on player pages).
Players with zero MLS right now will not be eligible for arbitration in 2020 unless rules are changed
Is this a ploy from the owners to keep salaries down, or a ploy from somebody else to encourage soccer as a first sport for our kids?
Yes they will. 2017, 2018, 2019 makes three years of service. If a player is called up between now and about 10 days into next season, they will accumulate all three years and be arb eligible. If they are called up before Super 2 deadline in 2017, they will be eligible for arb a year early – so still 2020. Unless the player is held down until around draft time next season, they will be arb eligible in 2020 (assuming they stick in the majors).
I get the idea of including top prospects that are near Major League ready, but why would they outrank someone like Stephen Piscotty, a former top prospect himself and now a budding young star with excellent numbers over nearly a full season in the Majors (2015 & 2016 combined)?