Are Forecasts Too Pessimistic About the Blue Jays’ Rotation?

Paul Sporer and I were responsible for providing the starting-rotation installments of last week’s positional power rankings, posts which you can access here and here. One of the interesting things I took from the exercise was the absence of the Toronto Blue Jays from the top 15 of those rankings.

Blue Jays starters led the American League in ERA (3.64) last season. If you prefer more advanced measures, the Blue Jays’ rotation led the AL with 15.3 WAR and finished second in FIP (4.07) to Cleveland. This season, all of Toronto’s starting pitchers of significance return save for R.A. Dickey.

But despite finishing as the AL’s most productive rotation last season and despite losing arguably its weakest link in Dickey, the Jays’ rotation appeared in last week’s positional rankings as just the eighth-best staff in the AL and the 16th-best such group in the game. FanGraphs projections have the Blue Jays staff ranked behind the Red Sox and the Yankees in the AL East, and if that holds, it could be damaging to Toronto’s postseason aspirations.

Our 2017 forecasts for the Blue Jays’ likely starting pitchers…

Name IP K/9 BB/9 HR/9 BABIP LOB% ERA FIP WAR
Aaron Sanchez   205.0 7.9 3.2 0.9 .302 73.7 % 3.69 3.86 3.4
J.A. Happ 181.0 7.8 2.8 1.2 .303 72.5 % 4.11 4.15 2.6
Marcus Stroman 169.0 7.5 2.4 0.9 .313 71.3 % 3.85 3.64 3.2
Marco Estrada 167.0 7.0 2.9 1.4 .277 71.6 % 4.31 4.62 1.9
Francisco Liriano 149.0 9.6 4.1 1.2 .310 74.3 % 4.11 4.22 1.8
Casey Lawrence 37.0 5.1 2.4 1.5 .312 67.9 % 5.20 5.04 0.2
Mat Latos 38.0 6.6 3.0 1.3 .309 70.2 % 4.77 4.69 0.3
Mike Bolsinger 9.0 8.5 3.5 1.3 .317 71.7 % 4.51 4.36 0.1
Conner Greene 9.0 5.8 4.6 1.4 .311 67.6 % 5.77 5.63 0.0
Ryan Borucki 9.0 5.8 3.8 1.6 .310 68.3 % 5.59 5.54 0.0
Total 973.0 7.7 3.0 1.1 .302 72.3 % 4.11 4.18 13.4

So what’s going on here?

The salient issue appears to be some disagreement between the fielding-independent and earned-run metrics. The majority of the Blue Jays’ top starters outpitched their FIP marks last year. Indeed, Aaron Sanchez (3.00 ERA, 3.55 FIP), J.A. Happ (3.18, 3.96), and Marco Estrada (3.48 ERA, 4.15 FIP) all beat their FIPs by a half-run or better. Among returning starting options, only Marcus Stroman appears to have suffered from some misfortune (4.37 ERA, 3.71 FIP) last season.

Another issue is depth: only Happ and Sanchez project to throw more than a 169 innings. Casey Lawrence (projected 5.20 ERA) and Mat Latos (projected 4.77 ERA), meanwhile, are projected as the top depth options on FanGraphs’ depth chart.

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But I do wonder if our projections here are being too tough on the Blue Jays. Projection systems are imperfect, of course. By definition, they’re working with incomplete information.

The forecasts don’t seem to believe much in Happ’s ability to repeat his magic from the last two seasons. And on the surface, Happ isn’t missing many more bats than he did in his previous tour with the Blue Jays in 2013 and 2014. Happ generated a 20.5% strikeout rate last season, a 19.8% rate in 2014, and a 18.5% rate in 2013. Happ’s 2016 walk rate is in line with his 2014 figure. The biggest difference is seen in his BABIP, which projections perhaps figure is largely out of his control. It’s why his ERA is forecast to jump by a full run. Maybe the projections will be proven to be accurate, but there’s also something to be said of Happ’s fastball secret, which Eno Sarris explored last year. Happ traded in curveballs and changeups for more four- and two-seam fastballs, and Sarris found his two fastballs have the greatest vertical-movement differential in the game.

Said Happ:

“They are drastically different pitches, and it’s just all about feel,” he explained. “I’m trying to get that good pressure on the four-seamer and spin it for some good backspin, keep my hand on top of the ball. The sinker is a little bit different. To me it almost feels like it’s coming off just one of the fingers and the pressure is different.”

There’s reason to believe Happ’s success isn’t a total fluke and the projections are missing something.

There’s reason to believe Sanchez is going to exceed his forecasts, too, after making dramatic strides in 2016. He’s also reportedly learning a changeup from Estrada. Sanchez is far from a finished product, and he’s dripping with unrealized potential. While our projections see more of the same, some analysts see breakout potential.

Humans and computer forecasters seem to agree that we should expect more from Stroman, and his World Baseball Classic performance only increases optimism.

Estrada is an outlier with an 88 mph fastball, one who has dramatically defied expectations the last two seasons and can perhaps do so again thanks to his excellent change and high-spin, “cue-ball” fastball as he characterized the pitch in conversation with Mike Petriello. The pitch averaged 2,413 rpm last season, a higher-than-average mark that allows him to pitch up in the zone.

And we are perhaps also overlooking the Blue Jays in large part because of the annual wild card that is Liriano. The high-variance lefty was acquired in a deadline trade last summer, an addition that was thought to mostly be a salary dump by the Pirates. But Liriano pitched well following his move from the NL to the AL, and interestingly, Pirates general manager Neal Huntington thought that might happen when executing the deal.

Early last season, former FanGraphs staffer August Fagerstrom, now working in the front office of the [redacted], wrote about how to beat Liriano. The NL apparently caught on to Liriano’s approach, which is dependent upon chase pitches more than any other major-league starter.

From a post-deadline piece I wrote last year while on the Pirates beat:

Opponents are swinging at career-low rates of Liriano’s pitches (41.1 percent) and of his pitches outside the strike zone (27.9 percent), nearly a 5-percent drop from last season.

“This was not a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ on Francisco Liriano. This was risk tolerance: What was the upside? What was the downside? What did we feel the probabilities were?” Huntington said. “And what were our a alternatives with the money we’ve created by moving him?

“There is a very good chance Francisco Liriano gets back to the American League where hitters are unfamiliar with him, in a new environment, with new scouting reports and does very well with Toronto.”

He was also reunited with catcher Russell Martin, who has noted in the past that hitters know the Liriano slider is coming but still can’t get themselves to lay off of it. For instance, in the 2013 NL Wild Card game, when Martin caught Liriano, Liriano threw 44 sliders against the Reds in a dominant outing. But that was also Liriano’s first season in the NL.

While having the data is one thing, seeing is another. And perhaps the NL had finally had enough looks at Liriano by 2016 to figure him out. In the AL, Liriano is back to a place where he hasn’t pitched a full season since 2012. Liriano is forecast to a produce a 4.11 ERA, but he is perhaps a decent bet to beat that number if there is indeed something to Liriano benefiting from new league and in reuniting with Martin.

The Blue Jays can’t really afford to have the projections be right, not in a competitive AL East and Wild Card race. The Blue Jays cannot afford to have the AL’s 16th-ranking staff, not with what is a talented but aging core of position players. But the good news for the Jays is there are reasons to be skeptical of their projection.





A Cleveland native, FanGraphs writer Travis Sawchik is the author of the New York Times bestselling book, Big Data Baseball. He also contributes to The Athletic Cleveland, and has written for the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, among other outlets. Follow him on Twitter @Travis_Sawchik.

19 Comments
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Jamie Griffith
9 years ago

Must agree with everything you said. Jays staff does fly a bit under the radar since people are scared off by the tough AL East. Only concern for me is lack of SP depth. Last season they got very lucky not losing any of their starters for any significant time(Estrada mostly pitched through an injured back).

Twitchy
9 years ago

Liriano’s success wasn’t just Martin or changing leagues. The Jays fixed his mechanics, which led to him having better control. He got more first pitch strikes, he totally changed up his pitch sequences making him less predictable, and was generally more effective. He got more swinging strikes, but that had more to do with him being ahead in the count more often forcing hitters to swing at his other stuff and being less predictable with his pitch mix, as opposed to just changing leagues.

Also with Estrada, because IFFB aren’t included in FIP, projections like Steamer will underrate him. ZIPS is a better projection of Estrada, but your depth charts average the two, which are separated by a full run.

The Jays lack of depth is a significant issue. But as I said in the other thread I do believe that Estrada (to a significant degree) and Liriano are being underrated by the projections. It’s understandable why, but it’s worth pointing out. I’d be surprised if the Jays aren’t one of the best rotations in the AL next season, if they’re healthy.

Jamie Griffith
9 years ago
Reply to  Twitchy

Estrada had the 8th best opponents wOBA and 4th best opponents batting average from the start of 2015 to July 22nd 2016 (when news broke about his herniated disk and he missed some time). His health will be paramount to their rotations success in 2017

Jamie Griffith
9 years ago
Reply to  Jamie Griffith

*3rd not 4th actually

jianadaren
9 years ago
Reply to  Twitchy

Does Steamer not project IFFBs? Because IFFBs are included in fWAR, though not in FIP.

Garyth
9 years ago

Even taking the Blue Jays rotation projection at face value, Dave Cameron’s summary post has the Jays as the first wild card team by WAR. I think health can certainly make up a lot of the almost 2-WAR gap between last year’s performance and this year’s projection. Any reason for optimism is always good for the team’s chances, but I think it is a bit of a stretch to say the Jays can’t afford this projection to be right.

southie
9 years ago
Reply to  Travis Sawchik

Maybe I’m in minority but I’d be hella surprised if any of their aging core is actually worse in 2017. Tulo, Martin, Pearce, Morales and Joey Bats should all be slightly better imo

Los
9 years ago

While I obviously agree that the projections aren’t perfect, I generally trust them a lot more than intuition.

With that being said the ERA/FIP divide seems to be one of the fundamental areas where ZiPS and Steamer disagree as ZiPS seems to “believe” a bit more in the ERA/FIP divide of these players (and laggards like Pineda) than Steamer. If you believe in ZiPS, the Blue Jays will perform better (though their FWAR will not really change) and if you believe Steamer, the Blue Jays are somewhere in the middle.

Los
9 years ago
Reply to  Los

Two more things, the Blue Jays were remarkably healthy all season only having two use anyone other that their 5th starter (Dickey then Liriano) twice last year. If they repeat that, they will perform better than 16th. It also seems that the projections for team SP are a bit inflated in the aggregate. If you look at the projections for the best ranked team vs the actual performance last year of the best ranked team all the way to the worst team, the projections beat the actual performance by an average of 2.5 wins (about 1.5 wins for the first half and 3.5 wins for the second half). If there was a place to bet on the under for projected pitcher WAR, I would be all over that bet.

Rank Actual Projection Difference
1 18.3 20 1.7
2 18.1 18.6 0.5
3 17.3 18.4 1.1
4 16.4 17.7 1.3
5 15.3 17.1 1.8
6 15 17.1 2.1
7 13.8 16.4 2.6
8 13.8 15.1 1.3
9 13.3 14.6 1.3
10 12.9 14.1 1.2
11 12.6 13.9 1.3
12 12.5 13.9 1.4
13 12.1 13.8 1.7
14 12.1 13.6 1.5
15 11.9 13.4 1.5
16 11.7 13.4 1.7
17 10.4 13.4 3
18 9.5 12.9 3.4
19 9 12.6 3.6
20 8.5 12 3.5
21 7.9 11.3 3.4
22 7.9 11.1 3.2
23 7.2 11 3.8
24 7.1 10.9 3.8
25 6.4 10.4 4
26 6 10.3 4.3
27 5.6 10.3 4.7
28 5.6 8.6 3
29 4.7 7.7 3
30 3.1 7.5 4.4
Total 326 401.1 75.1

BipMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  Los

Two more things, the Blue Jays were remarkably healthy all season only having two use anyone other that their 5th starter (Dickey then Liriano) twice last year. If they repeat that, they will perform better than 16th.

That is something I considered a reason to be *less* optimistic, because my thinking it is unlikely to happen again. You can see that as a potential cause for unsustainably good performance last year.

exxroxMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  Bip

I understand and agree that you have to regress for injury, BUT I think that having a fully healthy staff last year indicates less chance for injury this year. Nothing predicts future injury like past injury, so having guys who were durable last year should be a positive indication.

jjezioraMember since 2022
9 years ago

They need SRF to keep climbing and throwing strikes so they have another start ready for mid season. They had all time luck with SP injuries last year, so they can’t count on using basically 5 starters in rotation for a whole season like they did last year.

Twitchy
9 years ago
Reply to  jjeziora

Overall they were pretty lucky, though Estrada missed some time on the D/L, and he was ineffective during July/August because of his back injury. He pitched through it and didn’t miss much time, which was a plus, but there was a significant drop in effectiveness.

Damaso
9 years ago

I see a few issues. None of this is to say the projections are wrong, and tbh I worry about the sustainability of some of their numbers, but I do think these are real issues with the projections:

1. in each of the last 2 seasons, the current jays SP have posted collective ra9wars 3.4 and 4 wins better than their fwars. This would seem to indicate something more than fluke. And if it continues anywhere close to that level this year, projecting them to beat their fwar by that much again would project them in the top 5.

2. and indeed the projections include some of that, and project their ra9war this year to be 1 win better than their fwar. That alone would have them in the top-10 of the SP rankings here given how close the bunching is in the middle there.

3. Depth charts give Estrada a .277babip projection. His career babip is .256. over the last 4yrs its .239 (worst year was .262). .227 over the last 2. I get that it’s impossible for the projections NOT to regress that babip like that but imo there’s a pretty good chance that he continue posting the babips he has, given his unique pitches and pitch mix and their track record.

4. I guess I just don’t get why Stroman is projected for only 169ip. Stroman is a very efficient pitcher, and averages 6.4ip per start on moderate pitch counts. He’s only had one injury in his career, and it was a knee injury, not an arm injury. I’m not sure he actually has any more injury risk than any other pitcher. He could just as easily be projected for a good 35 more ip and it wouldn’t make anyone bat an eyelash. That would be worth about 0.7 extra war.

5. Also another little thing that would move the needle – the #6SP option that projects by far the best (Bolsinger), is projected for by far the least innings. Not sure why. For the record, Bolsinger has been the most impressive of the extra SP this spring, and is the one that likely makes the team (in the pen) and gets the first shot at the #6SP spot. Projecting him as the main eater of the extra SP innings could add another 0.3war or so.

Damaso
9 years ago
Reply to  Damaso

i.e. Even ignoring the fwar/ra9war discrepancy (and Estrada in particular), and just looking at playing time allocations, we could easily re-jig them to look like this:

Stroman 205ip, 3.9
Sanchez 205ip, 3.4
Happ 181ip, 2.6
Estrada 167ip, 1.9
Liriano 149ip, 1.8
Bolsinger 45ip, 0.5
Latos 38ip, 0.3
Lawrence 9ip 0.0
Green 9ip 0.0

Which would put them at ~14.4war, and in 10th place in the ranking.

Without even taking into account whether the rotation has real overall fip-beating ability or not. Just by projecting Stroman as healthy (and having his usual ip/gs) and Bolsinger as the primary #6SP.

1grm
9 years ago
Reply to  Damaso

Also, their pool of replacement starters (excluding bolsinger) wont all have 5ish era true talent by mid-season. There are likely to be players breaking out in the minors (whether being unproven prospects or rebounding veterans) that could be expected to run era/fip closer to league average by the time some of their starts are needed.

Los
9 years ago
Reply to  1grm

League average starters do not grow on trees in the minors. That’s why Mike Leake has an $80mm contract.