Braves Planning a Move to Suburbs
Well, this is a bit of a surprise. This morning, the Braves have announced that they’re going to move to a new ballpark in 2017 following the expiration of their lease with Turner Field. Citing traffic problems and the fact that Turner Field would require “about $150 million in infrastructure work, including replacement of seats, upgrading lighting and plumbing, etc., to remain viable”, the Braves are instead just going to relocate out of a 20 year old stadium in search of something shinier and newer.
Also, importantly, the location for the new stadium is in Cobb County, which is adjacent to Fulton County, where Turner Field is located. Without the threat of potentially losing the revenues that come from having the Braves stay where they are, Fulton County is very unlikely to kick in public money to make the kinds of upgrades the Braves would like to see. Cobb County is almost certainly going to pay a significant chunk of the cost of this proposed new stadium, so now the Braves have some real leverage to get more public funding, either from Cobb County or Fulton County.
The terms of the project and who pays for what haven’t yet been released — though the Atlanta Journal Constitution is reporting that the stadium includes $450 million in public financing, nearly 2/3 of the cost of the project — so it’s impossible to make specific statements about this particular deal, but in general, publicly funded stadiums are a terrible deal for the taxpayers, and the people of Cobb County and Fulton County are likely to be the real losers of today’s announcement. For some more in depth reading on why these deals are so bad for the public, here’s one of the many papers that have been written and tackle the topic.
The Impact of Stadium and Professional Sports on Metropolitan Area Development
There’s plenty of others, and Neil DeMause has chronicled much of the information at his blog Field of Schemes, even writing a book by the same title about how many cities have been fleeced in pursuit of stadium revenues. I’d highly encourage you to check out his take on this subject and other stadium ventures, especially if you have voting rights in the state of Georgia.
An announcement isn’t the same thing as an inevitable result. My guess is that this stadium is going to face many political and legal challenges, and I don’t think anyone will be too surprised if the Braves end up staying in Turner Field, just with some extra upgrades that they didn’t have to pay for. Wendy Thurm will be on top of this story for us, so expect to read a lot more about this in the days and weeks to follow. Meanwhile, Cobb County officials, re-evaluate your priorities. Helping extort taxpayers isn’t what you got elected to do.
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
The team will be paying 200M and the team has secured 450M in private money. It is a 100% done deal. No public funding or voting needed.
source please
From an ajc political reporter: https://twitter.com/bluestein/status/399915738690904064
http://www.ajc.com/news/sports/baseball/braves-plan-to-build-new-stadium-in-cobb/nbpNQ/
[Schiller said there is not a signed agreement, but he and Plant said they are 100 percent confident at this point that the stadium will be built.
“Yes, 100 percent,” Schiller said.]
The deal to move the Atlanta Braves to Cobb County involves $450 million in financing by the county and another $200 million put up front by the baseball team that first moved to Atlanta in 1965, we’re told.
…and will be built in partnership with Cobb County.
Cobb County is not a private entity.
Andrew, Cobb county is arranging PRIVATE financing….not public financing. There is a difference.
https://twitter.com/RussellSauve/status/399935568957546497
Cobb County is NOT financing the stadium per one of the Cobb County Commissioners. The Braves FO would not be “100% confident” if there were any public financing involved.
CJ, your links don’t support your assertion… The Bluestein tweet does use the word “private,” but the article published in his paper does not. It only references “$450 million in financing by the county,” and comments: “The key question is whether the financing arranged by Cobb County will hold — and what kind of financing it is.” Doesn’t sound very definitive.
The other article you link to says “Braves officials also declined to provide specifics regarding the public funding” (emphasis mine).
Trent Phloog, believe what you want but the Braves FO is saying that it is “100%” done and the Cobb County commissioner was quoted as saying that there is no public financing.
Posted my initial reply before I saw that last tweet, but I don’t think I’d hang my hat on a report from “tambourine enthusiast and trumpet player” Russell Sauve. Maybe wait for an actual reporter to check facts.
If there’s one thing for which all baseball front offices are known, it’s never lying when they say anything is “100%”
CJ, I am going to need a little more evidence than the assurances of politicians and their prospective corporate welfare clients to overturn the null hypothesis that public/tax payer money will be used to finance the stadium. (I am positive the Brave’s ownership will not pay for the corresponding infrastructure improvements.)
And what about the Special Purpose Local Option Sales Tax, SPLOST, passed by Cobb County voters in 2011, I cannot wait for the economic impact studies; NO municipality has ever used such tactics to finance a stadium.
CJ, the commissioner has since confirmed public money will be used. It appears he kept his office and constituents in the dark.
Trent, I made multiple phone calls to the commissioner’s office to get those facts as they stood at that time. Have you done anything to move the conversation forward except take digs about my hobbies in your snark?
Intersection of 285/75?
Sounds like a disaster, right? And how do they expect suburbanites south of ATL to show up for games? I’d imagine there will have to be some MARTA expansion to go along with this. So many questions, it just doesn’t make sense to me right now.
So you’re saying the Barves will get the financing, THE RIGHT WAY?!
Only issue I see is getting to the games. Turner had the issue of no public transportation. MARTA was close, but you still had to take a bus from a rail station.
In Cobb, MARTA is non-existent. What’s the solution….
My guess is that there is some sort of deal to build a rapid transit stop to the new stadium.
It would have to be some sort of a split between CCT and MARTA as both areas have their own publicly funded transit systems.
Yes, I think that is what will happen. The Braves want to leave Turner Field because of the traffic problems and lack of rapid transit so I think this issue will be addressed with the new stadium.
There’d better be. Traffic at the intersection of 75/285 is a disaster at rush hour already, arguably the worst in the metro area at that time of day. Braves traffic will only make it worse.
I would never bet on Cobb County ever approving any sort of real mass transit. They’ve rejected MARTA at every possible opportunity. This is the epicenter of the Tea Party, of course.
Its also based on racism. I wont repeat anything. But its been made pretty clear that certain people in Cobb dont want others to have access to their county via public transit.
Goddamnit really? I’m a huge braves fan living in missouri and I was wanting to see the new stadium. Is Cobb country really a haven for the cousin fucking bigoted tea party pieces of shit?
It was Newt Gingrich’s district.
Antonio, you don’t make yourself look better by talking about others in such a way, in fact, it makes you look like a really terrible person.
Always get a laugh seeing the “tolerant” lefties throw a tantrum and start the name calling.
Oh yeh, it’s absolutely racist. Fear of “others” has long been the driving force behind the suburban opposition to transit.
Yeah, from what I’ve seen and heard around Atlanta none of the suburbs want MARTA because it’ll bring “those people” and thus crime into their neighborhoods. The people they hire to clean their houses and look after their kids just have to be able to afford cars, or make three transfers on the bus.
It’s not so much what’s wrong with the Ted as it is what’s wrong with everything else around it. If you’ve ever been to a Braves game you’d know that it’s basically an island with nothing surrounding it. The City of Atlanta just signed off to partially fund a huge new stadium for the Falcons, but they were never able to get MARTA to run directly to the Ted, nor did they do much to develop the area around the stadium. It also helps that they’re moving closer to a majority of the fanbase in the northern suburbs.
Very true. The area around Turner Field has zero going on, and zero investment in anything to leverage proximity to the stadium.
The only benefit is the ease in justifying great post-game fireworks shows, since there’s no concern about noise or safety issues in that area.
Rahm Emanuel is currently treating Chicagoans to this same sort of behavior over a threat of a move to Rosemont for the Cubs. This while 50 CPS schools were shut down and, just a few weeks later, a $55M publicly-funded gift to private university DePaul — in a bid to build a new stadium for a basketball team a region couldn’t care less about. Despicable.
Professional sports teams belong in cities so the poor, harried masses have access to them. *Especially* once they’ve ever received an ounce of public money. My $.02.
The situation here in Chicago is completely different. Wrigley has landmark status which means any changes to the structure require city approval. The Cubs also have a contract with the rooftop owners where they receive a portion of the rooftop revenue for access to the views. If the Cubs hinder the current views they will be in breach of contract and the rooftop owners can then seek compensation through the legal system. The $500 million renovation project has already been approved by the city. Apparently the Cubs are trying to get the rooftop owners to waive their right to any sort of compensation which is ridiculous since we are talking about a few million dollars holding up a $500 million dollar multi-year project.
The Ricketts have bungled and misjudged almost everything since becoming owners of the Cubs and some are speculating that their financial situation is worse than previously thought. They misjudged the political landscape of Chicago. CHICAGO of all places. They misjudged the fan reaction to terrible baseball, for every 100k drop in attendance the team loses $7 million in revenue. Also, their annual debt payments of $20 million to $40 million appears to have really hindered their plans.
The peripheral details are different, sure, but the motivation is the same. Really rich folks looking to get really rich-er on the backs of the public which is largely poor with the help of politicians who they’ve helped to elect by financing campaigns which convinced said poor public that their interests would be served. This describes America, largely — not just Chicago.
Name the last billionaire who *lost* money when gambling on a purchase of a MLB team. Even grossly incompetent owners like McCourt just have to stall and, they’ll inevitably be right place, right time at varying degrees depending upon their market: http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2013/06/15/how-frank-mccourt-made-2-billion-from-the-los-angeles-dodgers-and-team-remains-saddles-with-debt/
How is that happening here? There isn’t really any public money involved in the new Braves stadium, at least not something that involves raising taxes. Cobb acquired private financing 400 million of the park, plus the team is kicking in 200 million. So….absolutely ZERO like the Chicago situation.
@Wil
how does a county taking out a loan *not* constitute public financing? Because they’re not paying it immediately it’s not costing the public — the taxpayers of Cobb County — anything?
Wil, how does a county/local government “acquire” private financing?
Retirenutting: Correct. They also aren’t using taxation or bond measures to raise the money. I mean, you’re right it is “public financing” but not in the traditional sense that you’re going to levy the public to pay for it. The loan will be repaid with the rent made on the stadium from the Braves and other entities.
Andrew: Not sure if you’re serious or riffing on my usage of acquire? Because the answer is by applying for it? Governments county and local have the ability to obtain credit just like any other entity.
Wil, how will Cobb County service that debt?
I was riffing the usage but not sardonically, I have nothing against the Braves or their organization, they are only doing what is the current best practice in financing stadium construction, dispersed costs concentrated benefits, public financing.
Think of the implications of a completely/largely privately financed stadium, it sets a terrible precedent for the MLB and other leagues. The leagues and their respective owners could be deprived of a huge source of value, tax payer financed facilities.
They do already have that precedent in San Francisco.
Good article on the topic, btw: http://www.chicagonow.com/chicago-muckrakers/2013/10/depaul-gets-an-arena-but-what-does-the-community-gain/
Yeah, that “good read” leaves some important facts out. For one, DePaul will use the new stadium for about 1/3 of the year leaving it open for the city to host concerts or shows. McCormick Place is the largest convention center in North America. Secondly, most of the public money going to the stadium is from the Metropolitan Pier and Exposition Authority which is a separate entity than the city of Chicago. This means the money has nothing to do with the CPS and can’t be used by the CPS. It can only be used for Navy Pier and McCormick Place development. Also naming rights and advertising will bring in additional revenue.
It should be noted that the biggest problem with the CPS is the teachers union and terrible parents/guardians.
It’s Tax Increment Finance money: http://www.cityofchicago.org/city/en/depts/dcd/provdrs/tif.html
You’re dismissing the question of exactly why the city would allocate $55M in TIF — public funds — to a convention center when the city’s general infrastructure, depending upon neighborhood, of course, resembles that of a struggling developing nation.
I don’t know your personal situation but, if you happen to be one of those who has the personal means to enjoy Chicago’s protected zones of affluence — you work in the loop, you live in the suburbs, you visit protected pockets of activity like Wrigleyville, perhaps sometimes come to the theater district to see a show, whatever — your views absolutely make sense because they’re justification for your own very damaging world-view and lifestyle and, we’ve known for a very long time, that happiness is really just the avoidance of pain and pursuit of pleasure — so guilty feelings really must be mitigated.
CPS problems are most assuredly not all caused by the teacher’s union but by the fact that we’re diverting public funds, again, to Charter schools which “teach” by investing 300X more funds than their public counterparts in “technology-learning” … which studies tell us benefits no one but the business community those Charter schools and their trickle-down progenitors serve.
Lie to yourself all you like.
also — you neglect to mention that DePaul was offered FREE USE of the UNITED CENTER. Home of the Chicago Bulls. Think about the recruiting possibilities and the avoidance of irresponsible use of TIF funds! They quietly turned that offer down.
@Retirenutting, I am a life long resident of the south side of Chicago, a tax payer and property owner in the city. My family has been here for nearly 100 years. I have extensive knowledge of the inner workings of the city. It is a corrupt and wasteful mess where nothing gets done without a kickback or bribe. But that is besides the point.
DePaul is not receiving TIF funds for the stadium. The MPEA is receiving the funds in order to increase revenue related to Navy Pier and McCormick place. The stadium is a small piece of the larger project that will include a multi-million dollar hotel and retail shops/restaurants. DePaul will be paying rent and not actually own the stadium. Yes, Wirtz and Reinsdorf offered DePaul free rent for the first 10 years probably out of fear of lost revenue. It might also have something to do with the $100 million entertainment and retail complex Wirtz and Reinsdorf would like to build near the United Center with the help of public funds.
Yes, by far the biggest issues with the CPS are the teachers union and indifferent parents/guardians. Chicago has either the 1st or 2nd highest public school teachers salary in the country depending on if you believe the CTU (teachers union) or CPS numbers. The issue isn’t a lack of funds but how the funds are spent. Throwing money at the problem, and when that doesn’t work throw more money at it has been a staple of Chicago politics for years.
But from a non-Georgian Braves fan perspective, selfishly, this is great news, right?
Only if you’re from Tennessee or something.
It’s much further from the Airport if you’re driving.
Not clear. The hope is that this would result in increased revenue for the team, but if the transit and driving situation is actually worse in the new location, which sounds like a distinct possibility, it may have the opposite effect. If the infrastructure is upgraded to facilitate convenient travel to the stadium, then it’s quite possible that attendance will increase significantly and boost the Braves out of the dead-middle revenue situation they currently find themselves in.
The Braves are locked into one of the worst TV deals in MLB until 2031, so they are losing out on billions of dollars that would otherwise come from the cable watching taxpayers.
The Braves would probably be welcome to return to Boston, but we won’t build them a stadium. Bad traffic, bad parking, bad transit to the park – you know, if people actually want to go to a ballgame, they’ll manage. I do believe, however, that transit/driving time plus the excessive length of games is making baseball less attractive, and that speeding up play would achieve significant savings on the capital side.
“if people actually want to go to a ballgame, they’ll manage.”
Sure, for hardcore fans most of the time. For casual fans, not so much. And casual fans collectively can bring in a lot of money for your team if going to the ballpark isn’t a huge hassle.
I always appreciate Wendy’s analysis. Thanks for sticking her on the case!
Ugh. Cobb County is actually the worst.
Maybe if Atlanta would abandon its idiotic restrictions on transit money…
That is–seemingly inexplicably–in the hands of the State. And the origins of that restriction are incredibly classist and racist. And the state has no interest in seeing transit succeed in the metro area.
The problem with publicly financed stadiums is that cities are generally asked to pay for them for the benefit of those that don’t live there. Suburbanites generally are free riders, as the cities and counties in which they live have to pay little to nothing of the cost of transporting them to the games, cleaning up after them when they leave, upgrading facilities so they come back, and, ultimately, paying the financing charges on the credit card the city used to build the thing in the first place. A team moving to where its fans actually are, and forcing the municipalities and counties in which they live to pay for the privilege, is, to me, a positive change.
It seems odd to think of the useful life of a building that substantial as being 20 years. The Falcons are saying the same thing about the Georgia Dome – obsolete after 20 years, and impossible to renovate. How have the Red Sox been able to make it in a 100 year old ballpark, when the Braves need a total replacement after 20?
There has been a truly crazy amount of money spent to keep the Red Sox in that 100 year old park… Far more than the $650 million or so being discussed for this new park. If you ever had the misfortune to go to a Red Sox game in the mid-90s or so, you’d know it was one of the worst pits imaginable before they started spending money on it (this time).
If you had gone to a Phillies game anytime in the 80s or 90s, you would have a idea how quickly a stadium can become obsolete. Of course, the Vet was pretty much an embarrassment the day it opened in 1971. The whole city cheered when they demolished that abomination.
Any Atlantans (Atlanteans?) feel the same about Turner Field?
I like Turner Field. Nothing spectacular about it to make it shrine-worthy, but not a monstrosity on par with the Vet or Olympic Stadium in Montreal.
The surrounding area and transportation to/from the park are another issue. But not anything insurmountable, IMHO.
The problem isn’t the stadium, it’s the area. I like the stadium, I just don’t like that it’s in a garbage part of town with shit transportation and traffic.
My opinion is of course that of someone who grew up and still lives a couple hours north of Atlanta so it’s more convenient personally — I never like going into Atlanta in general. I imagine less convenient for fans in atlanta though. Not really sure what the split is in attendance from suburbs versus city.
To the last part of my comment — i saw a heatmap of braves ticketbuyers afterwards.
http://homeofthebraves.com/wp-content/uploads/heat-map.jpg
We visited Nationals Park this year. As soon as we arrived, we immediately realized how it trumped Turner. Turner is very standard when it comes to amenities. Toilets, smoking area, generic food (Burgers, nachos, chicken fingers, beer, soda, water).
Nationals Park had so much more to offer. Food was higher quality, lots of “standing” room type areas to view the game in unique areas of the park.
Turner just isnt set up that way.
I’m not disagreeing with you, but Nats Park is pretty average as far as MLB park experiences go. Thanks to the recession, there is pretty much nothing around it, and it’s not that well run. But the Metro is right there!
It is pretty hard to imagine anyone having strong Turner feelings either way. It’s just… meh. If you think of every somewhat generic aspect common to the Camden-era parks (Camden, Jacobs, Arlington, probably a couple of others that slip my mind), and put them all together in a rather unremarkable way that will excite no one, but also neither offend nor horrify anyone, the result is Turner Field. It’s the 90s version of the 70s cookie-cutters, all by itself.
They just don’t make things like they used to.
Makes sense. The Braves are under one of baseball’s worst TV contracts such tht they won’t be able to compete with the salary inflation that will go on yearly. It’s not like the team will suddenly lose the ability to scout and draft talent, but they won’t be able to pay their arbitration bills without more money. If they sell out this new stadium, like the Giants, they’ll be able to susatain a higher payroll (or at least keep up with inflation) otheriwse precluded by rising salaries.
I know the park is 20 years old but there are only three stadiums in the NL that are older than Turner Field: Wrigley,Dodgers Stadium and Coors Field.
Gee. Thanks Obama.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with Turner field once you are inside the park. The facility it clean, has been well maintained and watching games there is very pleasurable. In fact, I remark how nice it’s held up every season.
Problem is that Atlanta itself is broken, from both an infrastructure standpoint as well as a fan standpoint. Traffic is awful 7 days a week and the Braves can’t even sell out playoff games. A move to Cobb County won’t fix this and has the potential to be suicidal as anyone not living in Cobb County won’t be able to get to the games. Lot’s of fans that live in East or South Atlanta (or surrounding ‘burbs) would be shut out. I live near Emory and have no chance of getting to a game on time without leaving work 2 hours early during a week night. At least the old location was centrally located.
This is a selfish move on the part of the Braves. It will also be a huge hit to the local economy where Turner field is, which is already low-income. I really hope it’s just a negotiating ploy to get Fulton County to step up and subscribe to improving it’s local infrastructure and public transportation.
What if,in the 3 years they have to build this, they create the infrastructure around it to be more accessible?
Unfortunately a majority of the changes that would need occur are actually on the Dekalb/Fulton County side and changing how Atlantans can actually get through/across the city. I-285, a monolithic loop that circles the city is a parking lot 70% of the time as-is. I don’t see Cobb County having any part of the change needed.
Agreed.
If you could set up an express MARTA line to the stadium from downtown and key spokes around the Atlanta metro, you could improve access to the park, whether in its current location or Cobb County.
Anything short of this would leave the park inconventient to a huge part of the metro. To actually do this scale of a transportation build-out would be unprecedented for Greater Atlanta.
Maybe this is because I’ve spent so much time in neighbouring states driving to weekend games in Atlanta, or just some sample size function of the games to which I’ve been, but I’m not at all certain how much of an effect this will really have on attendance. It always seems as if at least three of every four license plates in the parking areas are, like mine, from out of state.
I noticed a lot of comments related to traffic. I’m relatively confident that there is no solution to the traffic problem. No matter where the stadium is located, traffic and accessibility is going to be among the worst in all of professional sports.
As a resident of Cobb County, I really can’t decide how I feel about this
They ran out of room to hang their NL East pennants at Turner Field.
This speaks to how poor mass transit is in some sunbelt cities compared to the older cities in the northeast and rustbelt. I live 50 miles west of Manhattan but could get to CitiField entirely by train. OTOH driving there is an absurd combo of traffic, distance, tolls, gas, and parking fees. I think Philadelphia got it right, easy access on the subway, but easy enough to drive to as well.
Key phrase being “older cities”. What was the population of New York when in 1890 when the subways and such started (2.5 million); Cook County Illinois (1.2 million). Atlanta??? Care to guess. A whopping 65,000. Yea. It’s shocking a transit system didn’t develop in these smaller southern cities before the automobile came along. Metro Atlanta didn’t get to 1 million until roughly 1970.
Yes, the irony is that the cities of the South were starved of capital while Jim Crow continued. There were no major league sports teams either. They fought the 1964 Civil Rights Act tooth and nail, but they’ve benefited from it greatly.
I always find it funny when the proposed solution to traffic is more sprawl. It’s like the team is applying a 1960’s solution to a 2013 problem.
The area *directly* around the stadium isn’t great, but there are many really cool neighborhoods just a couple minutes away (Grant Park, Cabbagetown, East Atlanta Village, Little 5, Inman Park, etc.). Most of those neighborhoods are, and have continually been, improving. Moreover, the Atlanta Beltline, one of the coolest urban renewal projects in the country, is steadily progressing and reinvigorating the city core. I wish the city, and the team, had found a way to be a part of that urban renewal instead of leaving the immediately adjacent area of the stadium in limbo.
This move to Cobb is a calculated risk. Many of the paying fans of the team are in that county, and the team is counting on even more of the Cobb community to support the team. But, it will certainly alienate fans from Fulton, Gwinnett, and DeKalb counties, as well as those fans from south of the city. Whereas the current stadium has mediocre-to-poor access to public transit, the new site has no access at all (aside from the limited, Cobb-specific, bus-only CCT, which does essentially nothing for fans from outside Cobb). Further, many of the Cobb fans will still have to fight traffic to make it to weekday games, as they will be coming from work in the city.
For anyone who thinks that this new stadium will come with new public transport from the city, just know that it is very unlikely on any large scale. Cobb has continually fought the expansion of MARTA into the county, in large part to keep the “undesirable” element of the city away from Cobb. It’s funny that so many Cobb-ians hate the things about Atlanta that actually make it a great city (e.g., grit, diversity, and actual culture), move as far from the center of the city as possible, and refuse to fund any transportation that would unite the areas; nevertheless, they almost uniformly say “Atlanta,” when you ask where they are from, and want to be the home of the Atlanta Braves. Some strange self-loathing complex I cannot understand.
I can only hope that the “mixed-use” entertainment area that the team builds around the new stadium actually develops into a community. My guess is that it will be the kind of sanitized tourist haven that doesn’t help define a city, but rather contributes to more urban sprawl and its attendant problems.
how exactly do you measure, “grit and culture?”
g&cWAR, obviously.
Ask David Eckstein.
No No, it’s Kirk Gibson as keeper of the grit. Brian McCann is his trusted understudy.
I read Cobb County was 56% white, so is the other 44% also white or else I’m confused as to how that doesn’t count as diversity? Maybe some other form of diversity? But most people mean race when they say that.
No link to the map of ticket sales or did I miss it?
http://homeofthebraves.com/overview/#prettyPhoto
It’s over on the right, just look for the red blob.
I think the decision went like something like this: We can have a stadium at the intersection of I-20 and 75/85, or a stadium at 75 and 285. The Cobb location is closer to the majority of ticket buyers, we’ll own the facility, attendance won’t drop, and Cobb County is stupid enough to give us money. See ya City of Atlanta.
This is great, it’s like a hybrid offspring of my two favorite internet time wasters/blood-pressure raisers, fangraphs and city-data
I do declare, I do declare! When the Ted goes down, they’ll do it THE RIGHT WAY!