Career Retrospective: Joe Nathan
Joe Nathan has had Tommy John surgery before. Joe Nathan will need to have Tommy John surgery again. He has proclaimed that he intends to come try to return, but the odds are against that — 41-year-old major league pitchers are in short supply (there are just two this season). Whether he does or doesn’t make it all the way back, any subsequent seasons are unlikely to add much to his statistical ledger. And an impressive ledger it is.
A sixth-round pick in the 1995 draft, Nathan has been one of the few players left in the game who saw action back in the 90s, as he debuted for the Giants back in April of 1999. He was a starter back then, though he wasn’t particularly good. He only struck out three more batters than he walked in those 14 debut season starts. He would get another crack at starting the next season, but in his 15 starts in 2000 he struck out four fewer batters than he walked, and that was the end of that chapter.
Well, sort of. He would be a starter for the bulk of the next two seasons, at age 26 and 27, but he would do so in the minor leagues. His 2001 was an unmitigated disaster — he struck out 54 against 70 walks in Double-A and Triple-A — he walked more guys than he struck out at both levels. He was better in 2002 — 117 Ks against 74 walks, all at Triple-A Fresno — but he allowed 20 homers, had a 1.647 WHIP and 5.60 ERA. Better, but not good. He would come back up to San Fran in September for four scoreless relief appearances, and never looked back.
When I remember the A.J. Pierzynski trade, I generally think of him as being dealt for three guys who had a lot of promise but hadn’t really accomplished anything quite yet. And in the case of Boof Bonser and Francisco Liriano that is certainly true — neither would debut in the majors for another couple of seasons. Nathan, on the other hand, was pretty good in relief in 2003. Not so good that you could say the Twins saw his breakout coming, but he was pretty good. His 1.38 WPA ranked 43rd among relievers, and his +17 shutdowns minus meltdowns mark tied for 23rd-best.
Fast forward 12 seasons, and Nathan currently finds himself seventh all-time in saves. That’s going to lead to a lot of talk about Nathan as a Hall of Famer. Let’s take a look at that top 15 in saves.
| Statistical Comparison, Top 15 Career Saves Leaders |
|---|
| Pitcher | SV | IP | K% | BB% | K-BB% | HR/9 | ERA- | FIP- | ERA | FIP | SD | MD | SD-MD | WPA | RE24 | WAR |
| Mariano Rivera | 652 | 1233.2 | 23.3% | 5.5% | 17.8% | 0.46 | 46 | 60 | 2.06 | 2.67 | 584 | 121 | 463 | 57.8 | 367.2 | 39.3 |
| Trevor Hoffman | 601 | 1089.1 | 25.8% | 7.0% | 18.8% | 0.83 | 71 | 72 | 2.87 | 3.08 | 518 | 138 | 380 | 33.0 | 181.6 | 26.3 |
| Joe Nathan | 377 | 754.2 | 28.9% | 8.1% | 20.8% | 0.72 | 59 | 68 | 2.52 | 2.86 | 346 | 69 | 277 | 30.2 | 169.6 | 19.4 |
| Billy Wagner | 422 | 903.0 | 33.2% | 8.3% | 24.9% | 0.82 | 54 | 63 | 2.31 | 2.73 | 389 | 100 | 289 | 28.8 | 201.3 | 24.1 |
| Jonathan Papelbon | 328 | 617.2 | 28.8% | 6.0% | 22.8% | 0.66 | 56 | 63 | 2.35 | 2.59 | 303 | 62 | 241 | 28.1 | 138.1 | 18.7 |
| Lee Smith | 478 | 1252.1 | 23.4% | 9.1% | 14.3% | 0.63 | 75 | 75 | 2.98 | 2.93 | 478 | 188 | 290 | 24.4 | 172.6 | 25.0 |
| Francisco Rodriguez | 349 | 840.1 | 29.2% | 10.1% | 19.1% | 0.84 | 66 | 77 | 2.73 | 3.19 | 384 | 97 | 287 | 22.9 | 139.8 | 15.7 |
| Troy Percival | 358 | 707.2 | 26.8% | 10.5% | 16.3% | 1.08 | 69 | 85 | 3.18 | 3.87 | 362 | 89 | 273 | 21.8 | 116.4 | 11.3 |
| John Wetteland | 330 | 683.0 | 26.1% | 7.9% | 18.2% | 0.83 | 60 | 71 | 2.62 | 3.12 | 275 | 84 | 191 | 21.3 | 123.1 | 15.4 |
| Randy Myers | 347 | 814.1 | 24.2% | 10.3% | 13.9% | 0.71 | 80 | 81 | 3.17 | 3.26 | 342 | 118 | 224 | 19.7 | 106.9 | 13.7 |
| John Franco | 424 | 1245.2 | 18.4% | 9.3% | 9.1% | 0.59 | 73 | 86 | 2.89 | 3.45 | 463 | 196 | 267 | 18.0 | 96.0 | 16.0 |
| Dennis Eckersley | 390 | 807.1 | 24.7% | 3.9% | 20.8% | 0.88 | 69 | 67 | 2.85 | 2.77 | 323 | 107 | 216 | 15.7 | 128.0 | 20.6 |
| Jeff Reardon | 367 | 1132.1 | 18.6% | 7.6% | 11.0% | 0.87 | 82 | 92 | 3.16 | 3.49 | 382 | 179 | 203 | 13.7 | 85.2 | 9.7 |
| Francisco Cordero | 329 | 824.2 | 22.4% | 10.6% | 11.8% | 0.70 | 75 | 82 | 3.38 | 3.63 | 328 | 117 | 211 | 11.2 | 87.4 | 12.9 |
| Rollie Fingers | 339 | 1553.1 | 19.3% | 7.0% | 12.3% | 0.64 | 82 | 79 | 2.84 | 2.86 | 320 | 142 | 178 | 10.7 | 112.6 | 26.5 |
Looking at this table, the thing that sticks out the most is just how much Nathan made of his opportunity. He has comparatively few innings pitched, and yet finds himself in the top five in RE24 and the top three in WPA. He doesn’t quite get to the top five in WAR, but then WAR isn’t necessarily the best tool for judging relievers anyway. As a result of his lack of time relative to the others, he has the second-fewest meltdowns, and Jonathan Papelbon will probably slide past Nathan eventually. As a result, he ranks sixth in shutdowns minus meltdowns. Nathan has given up his share of home runs and walks, but he also struck out more batters than most of his closer ilk.
And it’s not just compared to other closers that Nathan’s rate stats look good. Among the 344 relief pitchers who have tossed at least 500 relief innings (since 1916, which is the first season for which we have K% and BB%), Nathan’s 20.8% K-BB% is tied for third with Dennis Eckersley, and the two of them are just two of six who are at 20 percent or higher.
What sticks out even more is how he stacks up in terms of WPA. Among all relief pitchers, he ranks fourth — behind just Mariano Rivera, Trevor Hoffman and Rich Gossage. Now, Gossage pitched for two seasons before the first season we have WPA data for (1974), but given his cumulative -0.3 WAR and 5.48 ERA from those two seasons, they probably wouldn’t have added a lot to his WPA total. When you factor in starting pitchers, whom WPA isn’t always kind to, Nathan drops back to 15th. Still pretty damn good. Either way, being in the same class with Rivera (sure-fire Hall of Famer), Hoffman (probable Hall of Famer) and Gossage (actual Hall of Famer) is going to look good on Nathan’s resume.
What won’t look good, of course, is his postseason work. Nathan pitched 10 postseason innings, seeing action with each of the four teams for whom he has pitched, and allowed nine runs. He has struck out 12 and walked eight, and has allowed more home runs (two) than he has saved postseason games (one). Both of those homers got Nathan charged with a blown save, but while the first one was in the sixth inning in 2003 when Nathan was still a pup and could be hand waived, the second one is a little harder to justify:
(Note all the cheering for Alex Rodriguez. He even got a curtain call.)
The Twins would hold the lead for a solitary half-inning after Nathan allowed this homer. This series would mark the third straight time the Yankees had beaten the Twins in the postseason, and they would make it four in a row the following season, though Nathan would sit that out, as he was recovering from his first Tommy John surgery. If not for this homer, you could kind of squint at his postseason line and discount some of it for being early career, but in 2009 (and in 2012, when he didn’t help matters in the Wild Card game) he was pretty damn good. Of course, you could also make the case that Nathan was hurt even then, and that the 2009 series should be discounted as well, but that’s kind of a tough sell. Of course, it’s also just 10 innings, and we shouldn’t put too much stock in it. But it would have been helpful to his case if they were 10 good innings, at least.
When he was a closer, there were few better than Joe Nathan. In fact, you could say just one — Mariano Rivera. From 2004 (when Nathan began closing) to 2013 (the end of Rivera’s career), only Rivera saved more games or had a better WPA.
If you’re a fan of sabermetrics, Joe Nathan’s Hall of Fame candidacy likely comes down to how you want to frame the discussion. If you look at his 19.4 career WAR and deem that too low and shut it down right there, well you probably won’t be alone. And probably aren’t wrong. But if you look at some other metrics, like WPA, and K-BB%, and take a look at how he compared to his peers in his era, a case begins to form. It might not be any better than the cases that Lee Smith or Jeff Reardon or a half dozen other guys could make, but there’s a case to be made nonetheless. And the fact that there is a case to be made just goes to show how great of a career Nathan had.
Paul Swydan used to be the managing editor of The Hardball Times, a writer and editor for FanGraphs and a writer for Boston.com and The Boston Globe. Now, he owns The Silver Unicorn Bookstore, an independent bookstore in Acton, Mass. Follow him on Twitter @Swydan. Follow the store @SilUnicornActon.
I don’t see a case. I think above all other positions, relievers need to be the absolute best and have a modicum of postseason success, especially if they’re one inning guys. Rivera had that in spades. Nathan doesn’t. He was a great reliever for a few years, but that’s just nowhere close to enough for a reliever.
Last I checked, and it had been a few years, Nathan had the best career ERA+ as a closer. So, drop SP years most closers have and just look at their closer years.
He fell behind Mo River at least.
Mo Rivera, too. Mo River was just a solid under the radar guy.
ERA- is a better stat than ERA+, and (min. 500 IP since 1920) it has Nathan 10th all-time (67) behind Mariano Rivera (49), Billy Wagner (54), Jonathan Papelbon (56), Tom Henke (64), Francisco Rodriguez (66), and Huston Street (66) as better among relievers.
“no fan” is talking about their stats as a reliever only. Nathan had 160 pretty bad innings as a starter.
With starter innings taken out (I think – not entirely sure how the FG leaderboards do it, and B-R doesn’t have ERA+ in splits) Nathan is 4th (59) behind Papelbon (56) Wagner (54) and Rivera (46).
Thanks for this, i love that fangraphs does a sabr minded look at retiring/declining veterans careers. Keep these coming.
Nathan definitely has a case, it really comes down to how closers are valued. I don’t think he has enough.
1.He will probably drop out of the top 10 in saves within 10 years.
2.His 35 saves last year make his totals look better but he was horrible.
3.He a top 5 closer, but for only 8 years.
4.Lack of postseason record
For me to strongly consider him I would of needed to see a couple more dominant years or 5 more solid years.
How many guys are a top 5 closer for 8 years? Personally I don’t care a of the hit or Nathan at all, but this comment make littl sense. there is a lot of turnover with relief pitching.
8 years as a top closer is impressive and among the slim minority. That is not going to get you in the HOF. He needed tgo pitch longer.
Postseason success is also likely binary (along with WAR) when it comes to closers. Clearly this is a bias which exists for all players – but it seems to exist MORE for closers. Of the 4 true closers in the HoF, 3 of them were on powerhouses of their time (Fingers, Gossage, Eck) and all 3 performed as well or better in the postseason. Only Sutter doesn’t fit this narrative, though Sutter doesn’t fit many HoF narratives in 2015.
And statheads and grit-n-grinders alike can see why this is the case. Advanced stays junkies are foremost in suggesting that the true value of a closer is to provide short bursts of maximum effectiveness in the highest leverage situations. It is accepted that the value of a closer diminishes on a worse team (less wins = less leverage.) By extension, the playoffs are much HIGHER leverage than the 162 games preceding them.
Therefore, can we truly consider a closer elite or HoF-worthy if he wasn’t consistently on great teams? Probably, but some might disagree. Further, can we truly consider a closer elite or HoF-worthy if he wasn’t as good or better in the playoffs? I personally think not. But it is a matter of framing the question, much like WAR for closers…
I think it’s crucial for relievers to have that postseason success because all they have is those little 70 inning spurts in the regular season. That is not enough to make a huge difference.
Please please please stop talking about WPA. Let it die the death it deserves.
WPA doesn’t deserve to die when it comes to relievers; it is one of the few times that it actually helps frame the conversation more fully than not using it.
It’s a great start IMO. Right to the point. What was the cumulative effect of your pitching/hitting matchups on your teams odds of winning. Elegant and simple.
Pitchers aren’t responsible for the game state when they enter the game, and that can effect their WPA. WPA also falsely assumes that some runs are more important to a team’s victory (or defeat), where, in fact, a run that’s scored in the first inning makes the same contribution to the team’s winning or losing as a run scored in any later inning. It’s a junk stat – or at best a fun stat – and one that we’d do better to drop when evaluating players.
Not sure I agree with your ‘runs are fungible’ argument. One run in the 1st is worth less because the other team has eight more innings to nullify it by scoring a run. One run in the bottom of the ninth in a tie game is worth quite a bit.
I think where you’ve gone wrong is by saying ‘the run in the ninth counted just as much as the run in the first’ and leaving it at that. There is contextual value in runs and at bats, that’s the whole point of WPA.
Great article! The one bad blemish on Sabean’s GM record (though I’ve always suspected that it was Colletti who engineered the trade; he used to talk often about how great Sabean was, allowing his lieutenants to stretch their wings and do GM type duties beyond their area, like making trades. No other assistant has ever talked about anything like that, before or since, that I’ve heard).
Ironically, it is this mistake that helped lead to this golden period of success for the Giants.
AJP was such a rick that the Giants dumped him for nothing after one season. Had the Giants kept Nathan, Liriano, and Boof Bonsor, they would have never gotten players like Benitez or Jamey Wright.
Liriano would have added 3.7 WAR in 2006, while Wright 0.7. Meanwhile, Nathan had 3.1 WAR while Benitez had -0.4. That’s an extra 6.5 WAR. Which would have pushed them to 82-83 wins. They picked 10th that season and got Madison Bumgarner. Instead they would have picked 17 or 18, nobody even close to Bumgarner in that part of the draft, and while a divisive pick (one Giants fan threatened to throw himself down a flight of stairs if Madison was selected), he probably wouldn’t have lasted to that part of the draft.
And in 2007, Nathan vs. Benitez/Hennessey yields + 2.1 WAR, pushing the Giants to a tie for 9th worse record and out of the 5th pick, where they got Posey. Marlins most probably would have picked him with the 5th pick, and if not them, then Reds or White Sox, plus they would have been tied with two other teams for 9th, so they could have ended up with the 11th pick in the worse case. Posey was not going to last that far back into the draft, $12M bonus demand rumor or not.
On top of that, even with the loss of pitching WAR, assuming AJP would have been better than the replacements we got by a win. Another win would have been enough to push the Giants draft pick even further back than what I described above, and even less likely the Giants get either player. So the trade was a triple whammy, what we lost in Nathan, what we lost in his replacements, and what we lost by dumping AJP after one season, instead of getting something in following seasons.
So without the trade, the Giants most like would not have Posey or Bumgarner, and their replacements would not have been close as good as they were from 2010-2014, and thus most likely, the Giants would not have won the three World Championships and be in the strong lead for title of the Team of the 2010 Decade.
Sure, keep telling yourself that one worked out well for the Giants after all.
Seems strange for the site that touts relievers as just failed starters to make a HoF case for Nathan.
Good closer careerwise, but no to the HoF.
The thing that popped put at me from that chart was how good Billy Wagner was. I realized he was excellent, but in several categories he is second only to Rivera. I would not have guessed that.
Exactly, Sam – Billy Wagner was a really good reliever, and nobody thinks he’s going to be voted into the Hall. In the present climate of opinion, no reliever except Rivera will.
“… nobody thinks [Billy Wagner is] going to be voted into the Hall.”
You’re objectively wrong on that point. Even if he doesn’t have a great shot of making it, he absolutely has a chance.
From Tim Kurkjian, who has a much greater understanding of what Hall of Fame voters are thinking than most: “…Hoffman and Wagner might not make it in their first year on the ballot… Still, Hoffman and Wagner will be strongly considered for the Hall.”
Source: http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/12124000/sizing-2016-hall-fame-ballot
MD/(SD+MD) would be better than SD – MD, no?