Carlos Correa Looks Historically Great

Carlos Correa placed second last week on the trade-value list that Dave Cameron puts together every season. That placement seemed to surprise some, given that Correa is having a very good, but not great season. Correa’s 120 wRC+ is hardly spectacular, even if that number increases to 150 if you start with the latter part of May. He has improved over the last few months, but even with that improvement, the placement might seem high. What definitely seemed high was Correa’s ZiPS projections over the next five years, starting at 7.9 WAR next season and totaling more than 40 wins from ages 22 to 26. Cameron, too, was surprised, and in the comments, his explanation caught my eye:

I was shocked by the Correa forecast myself, and asked Dan to double check that there wasn’t an error in the code or something, given how bullish it is on Correa’s future. But Dan said the system just loves Correa, as the history of guys who can hit like this at 20/21 in the big leagues is almost universally fantastic. The age really is the key thing to keep in mind here; it’s easy to forget how big of a leap guys can make early on, and at 21, there’s still a lot of room for growth.

Carlos Correa is currently in the midst of his age-21 season, and he’s accumulated 820 career plate appearances. Over the last 100 years, only 59 players have received at least 800 plate appearances before the end of their age-21 season and then eventually made their way to a Hall of Fame ballot. One finds that — without regard for how they played or for how long — an astonishing 36% (21) of those players eventually made in the Hall Of Fame. If you move the bar up to 1,000 plate appearances, 21 of 44 players are in the Hall of Fame. Of more recent players, it looks like that trend might continue. Edgar Renteria, Starlin Castro, and Elvis Andrus probably will not make the Hall of Fame and Justin Upton and Jason Heyward have a ways to go, while Alex Rodriguez, Ivan Rodriguez, Miguel Cabrera, Adrian Beltre, and Andruw Jones all have at least decent statistical cases.

I’ll keep going…

Of the 22 players to record at least 800 plate appearances (again, Correa has 820 now) and 6.0 WAR (Correa’s current WAR) before the end of their age-21 season, 77% (17) are in the Hall of Fame. Only Cesar Cedeno (50 career WAR), Vada Pinson (47 career WAR), Tony Conigliaro (12 career WAR, but a terrible eye injury hurt his career), Buddy Lewis (26 career WAR), and Butch Wynegar (27 career WAR) failed to make the Hall among that group. The current/recently retired players are Alex Rodriguez, Andruw Jones, Adrian Beltre, Giancarlo Stanton, Mike Trout, Bryce Harper, Manny Machado, and Jason Heyward. Of the 13 retired players with more than 800 plate appearances and a 127 wRC+ (Correa is at 127), 11 are in the Hall of Fame, with the aforementioned Conigliaro as well as Bob Horner (837 PA) not making the cut.

Just a little bit more…

The only shortstops in the last 100 years to accumulate at least 800 plate appearances and 6.0 WAR through the age-21 season are Alex Rodriguez (1523, 12.9), Arky Vaughan (1210, 10.3), and Travis Jackson (1436, 7.2). Rodriguez (128 wRC+), Vaughan (131), and Correa (127) are the only shortstops with at least 800 plate appearances at the end of their age-21 season and at least a 110 wRC+.

All of this is to say, yes, Carlos Correa certainly seems to be historically good, having produced an early career reminiscent of some of the best players of all time. Here is where the projections might seem a bit optimistic, however. Consider the table below, which features the 10-best age-22 through age-26 seasons ever.

Best Age-22 to Age-26 Seasons in Last 100 Years
Name Team WAR
Mickey Mantle Yankees 48.2
Babe Ruth – – – 43.2
Rogers Hornsby Cardinals 43.0
Jimmie Foxx Athletics 42.1
Joe DiMaggio Yankees 40.8
Alex Rodriguez – – – 39.9
Lou Gehrig Yankees 39.6
Albert Pujols Cardinals 38.6
Arky Vaughan Pirates 37.6
Hank Aaron Braves 36.5

Correa’s projections place comfortably within that top 10 (a couple more seven-win seasons from Mike Trout would do the same). Projecting anyone as a top-10 all-time player seems improbable. So let’s dig a bit deeper and get some specifics.

Carlos Correa still has half a season left before he finishes up his age-21 season. If he meets his projections, his career line so far will look like this:

Carlos Correa Projected Career Stats Thru 2016
thru Age 21 (with Proj) PA HR SB ISO BA OBP SLG wRC+ WAR
Carlos Correa 1101 47 30 .212 .270 .349 .482 124 7.9

We can handle this a couple different ways. First, let’s just take offense and take a pretty wide sweep. I looked for players within 25% of Correa’s PA total and within 18 points (15%) of his 124 wRC+ who have finished their age-26 season. I found the following players:

Carlos Correa wRC+ Comps Through Age-21
PA HR AVG OBP SLG wRC+ Off Def WAR
Eddie Mathews 1274 72 .274 .366 .541 142 69.4 -0.3 11.2
Frank Robinson 1345 67 .307 .378 .543 141 68.5 12.7 12.4
Arky Vaughan 1210 13 .316 .382 .448 131 46.9 18.3 10.3
Bob Horner 874 56 .295 .332 .547 130 29.8 -13.5 4.8
Orlando Cepeda 1291 52 .315 .349 .517 127 43.6 -24.4 6.5
Hank Aaron 1174 40 .299 .347 .499 127 39.7 -5.2 7.1
Miguel Cabrera 1031 45 .285 .352 .497 121 25.2 -27.3 3.2
Rickey Henderson 1120 10 .292 .392 .376 120 38.4 -7.5 7.1
Johnny Bench 1292 42 .275 .323 .444 114 16.6 24.1 9.5
Terry Puhl 912 3 .292 .355 .377 113 16.6 -4.7 4.4
Justin Upton 1157 43.0 .272 .350 .485 111 25.6 -13.4 5.0
Rick Manning 1141 9 .289 .342 .377 110 10.5 -2.1 4.8
Ron Santo 1037 32 .271 .343 .453 110 11.0 -14.0 3.2
Roberto Alomar 1313 16 .282 .338 .378 108 15.7 16.1 7.7
Jim Fregosi 867 12 .286 .330 .412 108 7.9 7.6 4.3
Boog Powell 1002 40 .252 .317 .433 107 7.0 -16.7 2.0
AVERAGE 1128 35 .288 .350 .458 120 29.5 -3.1 6.5
Carlos Correa (thru 2016) 1101 47 .270 .349 .482 124 36.1 3.0 7.9

Correa is a step above these guys on both offense and defense. Let’s see how they did from ages 22 to 26.

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Carlos Correa wRC+ Comps Age-22 Through Age-26
PA HR AVG OBP SLG wRC+ Off Def WAR
Arky Vaughan 3152 52 .339 .442 .499 158 235.4 55.5 37.6
Hank Aaron 3356 179 .325 .377 .582 158 241.4 4.2 36.5
Rickey Henderson 3022 65 .296 .408 .443 144 200.4 34.6 34.7
Johnny Bench 3295 170 .267 .347 .499 133 127.0 82.1 34.1
Eddie Mathews 3183 181 .278 .389 .541 150 202.2 31.2 34.0
Ron Santo 3428 135 .286 .366 .489 134 128.7 42.9 31.3
Frank Robinson 3148 174 .309 .395 .584 153 213.4 -17.6 31.0
Jim Fregosi 3314 64 .268 .338 .402 119 71.4 73.2 26.1
Miguel Cabrera 3410 164 .319 .392 .555 143 170.3 -40.8 24.0
Orlando Cepeda 3143 170 .307 .356 .545 145 169.1 -64.8 22.4
Roberto Alomar 3174 48 .305 .378 .437 123 107.7 -6.5 21.2
Justin Upton 3157 121 .275 .355 .473 125 106.1 -33.4 18.0
Boog Powell 2738 125 .261 .355 .463 136 108.5 -45.3 15.5
Terry Puhl 2754 40 .277 .342 .393 113 41.6 9.2 14.6
Bob Horner 1971 105 .275 .346 .503 132 68.7 -23.3 11.7
Rick Manning 2490 18 .249 .314 .322 77 -63.0 0.7 1.9
AVERAGE 3046 113 .290 .369 .483 134 133.1 6.4 24.7

We see an average of a five-win season. One-third of the players averaged a seven-win season, and nearly half posted a wRC+ in excess of 140 over a five-year period. That’s good, but still not commensurate with the sort of performance being projected by ZiPS.

But what if we didn’t think Correa’s plate appearances were truly reflective of his talent level? As a rebuilding club — one unlikely to fight for every last marginal victory — it’s certainly possible the Astros, at least before their surprise run last season, were cognizant of potential super-two status. If we relax the plate-appearance constraint by just a little and give Correa 200 extra PA, and then zero in on his wRC+ of 124, only putting players within 10 points in his comps, here is how those players performed from ages 22 to 26.

Carlos Correa Targeted wRC+ Comps Age-22 Through Age-26
Name PA HR AVG OBP SLG wRC+ Off Def WAR
Alex Rodriguez 3449 234 .307 .386 .599 150 233.8 58.7 39.9
Arky Vaughan 3152 52 .339 .442 .499 158 235.4 55.5 37.6
Hank Aaron 3356 179 .325 .377 .582 158 241.4 4.2 36.5
Rickey Henderson 3022 65 .296 .408 .443 144 200.4 34.6 34.7
Johnny Bench 3295 170 .267 .347 .499 133 127.0 82.1 34.1
Vada Pinson 3433 106 .304 .347 .485 126 110.6 16.0 25.7
Miguel Cabrera 3410 164 .319 .392 .555 143 170.3 -40.8 24.0
Orlando Cepeda 3143 170 .307 .356 .545 145 169.1 -64.8 22.4
AVERAGE 3283 143 .308 .382 .526 145 186.0 18.2 31.9
AVG/YR 657 29 .308 .382 .526 145 37.2 3.6 6.4

That’s an average wRC+ of 145 over five seasons. Using this set of criteria, we get the average up above six wins, but we are still a win and a half short of those ZiPS projections. Assume even slightly above-average defense, however, and you get to seven wins pretty easily. But we still seem short. Of course, when projecting five years out, the next year is the most important, followed by the year after that. If you’re looking at potential overall outcomes, it might be best to look at a list like the above. When making projections, however, using a relatively standard aging curve is probably best.

Now look at that chart above and let’s see who most resembles Correa. The only two shortstops on that list also happened to top that list. And as Correa relative to Alex Rodriguez, they appear to be incredibly similar players by rate stats as of right now.

Best Shortstops Through Age 21
Position ISO BABIP BA OBP SLG wRC+
Carlos Correa SS .217 .314 .271 .350 .488 127
Alex Rodriguez SS .220 .349 .314 .366 .534 128

By rate stats, Correa is just a bit of BABIP behind, and given the era, they are virtually even. At 22 years old, Alex Rodriguez, put up a 7.9 WAR, precisely what Correa is projected to do in ZiPS. Of course, it isn’t quite that easy and projections consider a wide range of factors and players including minor leagues, but when the seemingly best-fit comparable puts up a 7.9 WAR at age 22, it’s hard to ignore the coincidence.

Those projections for Correa might seem a bit crazy, but next year’s projection really doesn’t seem that far off even when considering broader comps and factoring in position. When a great season is the base at age 22, it’s only natural for the subsequent seasons to fall in line. With the large number of seemingly great shortstops coming through, it is natural to group them together, but with his age and accomplishments, Correa might be in a class by himself.





Craig Edwards can be found on twitter @craigjedwards.

33 Comments
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free-range turducken
10 years ago

Another Craig Edwards ZiPS puff piece!

mike sixelMember since 2016
10 years ago

Good stuff. Puts the projections in some context.

Brian ReinhartMember since 2016
10 years ago

I…wow. This is truly impressive stuff. brb, picking my jaw up off the floor.

And speaking of Texas-based greats, this article underlines just how great Adrian Beltre has been, and for how long. There were a couple of years where Beltre had a reputation for inconsistency, but he was an above-average player at age 20 and is still an above-average player at age 37. An incredible career.

OddBall Herrera
10 years ago
Reply to  Brian Reinhart

The other one is Andruw Jones – his talent level crashed so thoroughly in the last couple of years of his career that it’s easy to forget that he was a truly remarkable player.

phpope
10 years ago
Reply to  Brian Reinhart

Those Seattle years were frustrating. And right as he looked to have figured it out in his last season with the Dodgers. I’ll always wonder how much greater his career might look if Frank McCourt hadn’t bought the Dodgers and started stripping the club for parts.

Mahoney
10 years ago
Reply to  phpope

Safeco turned Beltre into Joe Randa over the prime of his career:

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphsw.aspx?players=639,623

Even with that, he still has over 77 career WAR at age 37….and counting.

JJWattsArmBrace
10 years ago

But here is the REALLY crazy part: If you go back and check the Shortstop Hitter Contact Quality Report, written in late June, Correa was actually underperforming his expected wRC+ by 10 points! With a little less bad luck, we quite literally might be looking at the best start of any shortstop ever.

mattMember since 2023
10 years ago

Carlos Correa is terrific, but I’m having a hard time seeing him over Lindor. At some point Lindor’s offensive numbers in minors have to mean very little, he’s an amazing defensive SS that is a really good hitter already. Correa looks to me to be a future good defensive 3B

Mahoney
10 years ago
Reply to  matt

So lets say over the next two years Correa slips to being a good defensive 3B and doesn’t improve on offense, except to add enough power to offset his lost defensive value.

This version of Correa, which fails to improve his value between ages 21 and 23, still ends up looking a lot like the rookie version of Kris Bryant. Not a bad place to be at such a young age.

EltnegMember since 2020
10 years ago

This is a really good piece, but my mind still keeps rejecting those projections like they’re an optical illusion I can’t wrap my brain around. Something people mentioned in the comments of the Trade Rankings piece was the gap between him and Seager. Does a six-month age gap really make that big of a difference when they were drafted in the same year?

phpope
10 years ago
Reply to  Eltneg

On the field? Probably not. In paper statistical projections that rely on an arbitrary date to determine future value? Apparently.

Given that Seager is basically outpacing Correa across the statistical board, it seems ZIPS projections are either overly optimistic for Correa or undervaluing Seager based only on the six month age difference.

Concerned Reader John
10 years ago
Reply to  Eltneg

There’s more to it than a six-month age gap. Correa has a an additional 300 PAs in the majors, which sounds insignificant until you realize that gap is 59% of Seager’s PAs in the majors. Also important, Correa had a better track record in the minors – Seager was great in 2014, but unremarkable in 2015.
One last thing that could cut either way, the projection systems are skeptical of Seager’s ability to maintain a BABIP of .351. It’s possible he could have a Votto-like BABIP, but the sample size isn’t large enough to say so definitively.

phpope
10 years ago

Yeah, the BABIP is the number that stands out as probably unsustainable at that high of a level, although I wouldn’t be surprised to see it end up above average. given his early contact rates. But yes, small sample size. Although Correa’s is not that much larger – as you note, despite a high percentage, it’s really only half a season extra. Small sample sizes all around, I think.

Not sure there’s that much difference in their minor-league track records, but even if so, I’ll hold my hands up and admit I have no idea how to project of minor league stats. Odd fact, both Seager and Correa underperformed at AAA level compared to their ML numbers.

Either way, I hope both of them can stay at SS; add in the other kids at that position, and we could be treated to some fantastic play over the next decade.

nenrightMember since 2020
10 years ago

Correa had a better track record in the minors? Not sure i buy that. At least, it’s not that big of a gap. Correa had a better 2015 season when you include AA stats.

2014: Correa had a 144 wRC+ at A+ level. Seager had a 163 wRC+ across two levels

2013: Correa had a 147 wRC+ at A level, Seager had a 155 wRC+ at A level and a 54 wRC+ at A+ level(a .179BABIP will do that to you)

I don’t see their minors track records as being all that different. Sure, seager had more stretches where he was below average as a hitter, but most of those are due to bad BABIPs. Correa’s best season was better than Seager’s best, but both were insane(226 wRC+ for Correa, 196 wRC+ for Seager, and both happened at AA interestingly enough)

Concerned Reader John
10 years ago
Reply to  nenright

Probably splitting hairs, but after turning 18 Correa never had a season where his OBP dipped below .400 – incredibly impressive for a player his age and level. Seager’s main advantage was staying on the field, which is not nothing, but also not really going to effect ZiPs projections (though the tables are misleading b/c Correa had over 400 PAs for the Astros).

Seager PA AVG OBP SLG
19 R-A-A+ 2013 505 0.255 0.343 0.446
20 R-A+-AA 2014 625 0.339 0.400 0.582
21 AA-AAA 2015 550 0.293 0.350 0.487

Correa
18 A 2013 450 0.320 0.405 0.467
19 A+ 2014 249 0.325 0.416 0.510
20 AA-AAA 2015 246 0.335 0.413 0.600

Apologies, this table was entirely legible when I hit ‘Post Comment’

patagent
10 years ago

Correa will finish the season as a 22 y/o (DOB 9/22/1994). Corey Seager also started this season as a 21 y/o SS but turned 22 y/o half a year earlier (DOB 4/27/1994). According to ZIPS, both will finish the season with 800+ career PA and ~7.5 career WAR but Seager will have ~300 less PA’s. I can see Correa being a better player at their peaks (Correa looks more athletic) but any difference in projections between Correa (+41.5 projected WAR from ’17-’21) and Seager (+35.4 projected WAR from ’17-’21) is probably within the margin for error.

phpope
10 years ago

Using ARod as the best comp is a touch disingenuous, since you’re including his age 18/19 seasons. Excise those and compare only his and Correa’s age 20/21 seasons and the gap between the two is significant. Something closer to:

ISO BABIP BA OBP SLG wRC+
Correa .217 .314 .271 .350 .488 127
Arod .235 .355 .330 .380 .565 140

OddBall Herrera
10 years ago
Reply to  phpope

Yeah, I think the ISO is the big difference long run – I would expect Correa to settle in with a little less power, and a lot fewer centaur portraits

phpope
10 years ago

Let’s hope not, most importantly on the later difference.

John Elway
10 years ago
Reply to  phpope

If there’s any possibility of that centaur correlation, corral Correa until he comes back to his senses.

Just neighing.

mr. N
10 years ago

the great Arky Vaughan…so good yet so forgotten

patagent
10 years ago

One reason ZIPS might favor Correa over Seager is BABIP. Correa owns a career .306 BABIP while Seager has .351. I do think Seager has better bat to ball skills given his 1 career IFFB (Correa has 13). But over time, I expect Seager’s BABIP to go down while Correa’s might go up a tick.

Satoshi9227
10 years ago

Mike Trout looks at that age 22-26 WAR chart with his 45 WAR through ages 20-24 and laughs and laughs.

nbb7
10 years ago
Reply to  Satoshi9227

Then Trout looks at the team he’s on and weeps and weeps

Unique New York
10 years ago
Reply to  nbb7

Trout is a pleasure to watch. Living on the East Coast, I do whatever I can to watch him play when the Angels aren’t at home. The Angels owe it to their fans to try and put a better product on the field with Trout. Even an average team with Trout could be a perennial Wild Card or playoff contender.

Unique New York
10 years ago

I want to wait until we use the term “historically great”. From some of the number crunching, it appears that Correa can reach his very lofty WAR projections. However, this is a lot of “what if”. I’m skeptical that Correa is really that great of a generational talent. His numbers just don’t jump off the page the same way that Alex Rodriguez did when he was a youngster. I do, however, appreciate the analysis of why Correa’s projections are so high in the coming years due to his potential learning/production curve. I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens.

P.S. Did anyone else think it was comical that Bryce Harper was named the #85 best player of all time in the ESPN MLB rank? I certainly did and found it to be a slap in the face of other greats who have had a) longer successful careers and b) more than one season where they were “really good” or “great”.

fredfotch
10 years ago

Yes #85 is a joke, even by ESPN standards. His number 2 most similar player through age 22 is Tony Conigliaro, which should serve as a cautionary tale of counting your eggs before they hatch.

LHPSU
10 years ago
Reply to  fredfotch

You can’t project beanballs.

Brian ReinhartMember since 2016
10 years ago

Where did Trout rank?

Fun fact: by WAR, Mike Trout is already the #370 best player ever, just 0.2 WAR behind Jake Peavy (!).

Mahoney
10 years ago
Reply to  Brian Reinhart

Trout has also leaped over Tim Salmon for the #3 best player by WAR in Angels’ history:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/ANA/

Mahoney
10 years ago
Reply to  Brian Reinhart

Trout has also leaped over Tim Salmon for #3 all-time in Angels history:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/ANA/

Brian ReinhartMember since 2016
10 years ago

Holy shit. According to Mike Trout’s ZiPS projections for the rest of 2016 and in the trade value list, Trout will enter free agency as one of the 40 best hitters of all time.

dl80Member since 2020
10 years ago

Wow. Puts the lofty projections (and the great start) into context.

One thing I noticed when playing with the leaderboards, is if you tweak it to be 600 PA by the end of age 21, since 1945, almost every player above Correa in WAR (he’s already 25th and will probably end up 14th) is an all-time great.

Interestingly, the only non-HOFers are guys who had really great careers but petered out at exactly at age 30: Cedeno, Vada Pinson, Butch Wynegar + Tony C.

Is there a concern that guys who come up at 18, 19, 20 are more likely to be done gaining value by age 30?

Even the ones who are HOFers (or should be) often petered out right at age 30 in terms of value contributed: Griffey, Andruw Jones, Mazeroski, Cepeda.