Cooperstown Notebook: The 2025 Progress Report, Part II

Denis Poroy-Imagn Images

It’s been a big season for Manny Machado — a revival, as I termed it in June. After being hampered by tennis elbow in 2022 and ’23, then limited to DH duty in early ’24 while recovering from surgery to repair the extensor tendon in that troublesome right elbow, he’s played in all 132 games for the Padres, who ended the weekend tied for first place in the NL West with the Dodgers.

Along the way, Machado has collected some milestones. He clubbed his 350th home run, a two-run shot off the Giants’ Robbie Ray, on June 5, and he collected his 2,000th hit, an infield single off the Diamondbacks’ Zac Gallen, on July 7, the day after his 33rd birthday. By industry convention, based on a player’s age on June 30 of that season, Machado became just the 12th player to reach both milestones in his age-32 season or earlier, joining Hall of Famers Henry Aaron, Jimmie Foxx, Lou Gehrig, Ken Griffey Jr., Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Mel Ott, and Frank Robinson, future Hall of Famers Miguel Cabrera and Albert Pujols, and cautionary tale Alex Rodriguez. That makes him an apt choice to lead off this installment of my annual Hall of Fame progress series; I checked on pitchers and catchers last week, and will cover outfielders and unicorns next week.

For this exercise, I’ll be referencing bWAR for season and career totals, my JAWS metric, and the ZiPS rest-of-season projections, since one goal here is to provide perspective on where these players will stand at the end of the season, having banked a full complement of WAR instead of just 100-some games worth; these future candidates are already dealing with suppressed WAR totals from the 60-game 2020 season, though that hardly makes them the first to experience such scheduling limitations and career interruptions due to wars and strikes. I’m not predicting that every player here will eventually wind up enshrined or even suggesting that all will be worthy; in some cases I’m particularly pessimistic, but these are the top active candidates.

One aspect of these players’ progress that I’ll refer back to is something I discovered a couple years back: roughly three-quarters of the position players who have reached a 40-WAR peak score (best seven seasons, a.k.a. WAR7) have eventually been enshrined, making it a useful mid-career indicator. Inevitably some of the focus throughout this exercise is on the math required to improve those peak scores. There’s far more to these players’ cases, and to appreciating their skills and accomplishments, than that math, but I can’t shoehorn everything into this format.

Here again is the table related to those 40.0-WAR peaks (32.0 for catchers):

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The 40+ Peak Club
Position 40+ Peak HOF 40+ Not Elig Pct HOF
C 16 11 1 73.3%
1B 22 14 4 77.8%
2B 18 12 3 80.0%
SS 22 15 1 71.4%
3B 21 12 5 75.0%
LF 12 9 1 81.8%
CF 18 10 1 58.8%
RF 21 14 3 77.8%
Total 150 97 19 74.0%
Source: Baseball-Reference
Peak = player’s best seven seasons using bWAR. Not Elig = includes active or recently retired players as well as those previously on the permanently ineligible list but not yet voted upon as candidates (i.e., Joe Jackson and Pete Rose).

Machado passed the 40-WAR peak mark in 2022, before I figured out the power of this indicator. Here’s where he stands:

Manny Machado, 3B
Category Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Current 61.6 42.6 52.1
2025: 4.0 | ROS: 0.8 Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Projected End 2025 62.4 43.3 52.9
HOF Standard 3B 68.9 43.4 56.1

As of mid-June, Machado had a 31% chance of reaching 3,000 hits according to ZiPS — not as high as Freddie Freeman (61%) or Jose Altuve (41%) at the time, but certainly impressive. His bat has cooled off a bit since, but entering Monday’s action, he’s hitting .292/.354/.480 (134 wRC+) and is up to 2,047 hits and 363 homers. His 4.0 WAR is already higher than his 2023 and ’24 marks, and is just an eyelash away from ranking as his seventh-best season. Matching his 0.8-WAR rest-of-season projection would push him past the recently inducted Dick Allen for 18th in JAWS among third basemen, and place him 0.1 WAR away from the seven-year peak standard at the position.

Machado is a polarizing player who’s done plenty to cast himself as the heel throughout his career. Many have called him dirty, though for what it’s worth, Dustin Pedroia exonerated him for the takeout slide that turned the Red Sox second baseman’s career. He’s still capable of finding controversy — witness the ball he threw into the Dodgers’ dugout during last year’s Division Series, shortly after Fernando Tatis Jr. was hit by a pitch — but he’s also added some energy to the Padres’ rivalry with the Dodgers, helping to elevate it into one of the game’s best. He remains an exciting player at the plate and in the field, and it’s more apparent than ever he’s going to wind up a Hall of Famer.

For the rest of this installment, I’ll move around the horn. All statistics are through August 24.

First Base

Paul Goldschmidt, 1B
Category Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Current 64.0 45.0 54.5
2025: 1.5 | ROS: 0.4 Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Projected End 2025 64.4 45.0 54.7
HOF Standard 1B 65.0 42.0 53.5

Though he’s been unable to maintain the pace he set early this season, Paul Goldschmidt has rebounded from his subpar finale in St. Louis, one that included an agonizingly slow start and an appearance on my Replacement-Level Killers list. His bat perked up in the second half of 2024, and if his final season with the Cardinals did nothing else, it pushed him past the 2,000-hit and 350-homer marks as well as the JAWS standard at first base.

After landing a one-year, $12.5 million pillow contract with the Yankees, the 37-year-old Goldschmidt hit .338/.394/.495 (148 wRC+) through the end of May, a line that reflected his tradeoff between power (just six homers to that point) and contact (a 15.1% strikeout rate, 11.4 points below last season). Since then, however, Goldschmidt has skidded to a .227/.276/.357 (74 wRC+) line, and overall, he’s got a drastic platoon split, with a 217 wRC+ in 132 PA against lefties and a 70 wRC+ in 323 PA against righties. He’ll have to shore up that split, and produce at a higher level than he’s done lately, if he’s to remain an everyday option. While his career totals (now 2,174 hits and 372 homers) could probably use more padding for some voters’ tastes, he’s a seven-time All-Star, four-time Gold Glove winner and former MVP who ranks among the top 15 first basemen in career, peak, and JAWS.

Freddie Freeman, 1B
Category Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Current 63.4 39.5 51.4
2025: 2.7 | ROS: 0.8 Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Projected End 2025 64.2 39.5 51.9
HOF Standard 1B 65.0 42.0 53.5

Like Goldschmidt, Freeman was unable to maintain a ridiculously hot start (.374/.440/.638, 194 wRC+ through May, in his case), but as noted above, while he was red-hot, Dan Szymborski forecast him as having a 61% chance of reaching 3,000 hits (he’s the active leader with 2,401) and a 36% chance of reaching 500 homers (he has 361). Dan’s ZiPS for Freeman also included a median projection for 80.9 career WAR, which would supplant Jeff Bagwell for sixth all-time among first basemen and rank second among those from the integration era, behind only Pujols.

Freeman’s late-2024 cooldown and this year’s lesser campaign did cost him a chance to improve his peak score; at 39.5, he’s a little light in that department, trailing not only Goldschmidt but also Todd Helton (46.6), Joey Votto (46.5), and Cabrera (44.8). He’s made up for it with a Steady Freddiness that includes nine All-Star selections, an MVP award, and four other top-five finishes in the voting, a collection of accomplishments that has given him a 135 to 109 edge on Goldschmidt in terms of their Bill James Hall of Fame Monitor scores; Votto has just 89 points there. Last year’s World Series MVP-winning performance, which not only helped the Dodgers to a championship but channeled the hobbled Kirk Gibson even before we knew about the fractured rib, is probably worth an extra bump as well. Did I mention that with his .302/.375/.501 line, Freeman’s in the race for his first batting title? His current mark would rank as only his sixth-best full-season mark, but it’s good enough to lead the NL for the moment.

Also noteworthy: Keep an eye on the first baseman who replaced Freeman in Atlanta. At 31, Matt Olson is no spring chicken, but thanks to his combination of power, plate discipline and elite defense, he’s at 38.1 career WAR/34.1 peak/36.1 JAWS, and his current 4.2 WAR is one of his seven-best seasons; he’s got three between 3.3 and 4.0 that he could still improve upon to approach a 40-WAR peak before too long.

Second Base

Jose Altuve, 2B
Category Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Current 53.7 40.2 47.0
2025: 0.8 | ROS: 0.4 Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Projected End 2025 54.1 40.2 47.2
HOF Standard 2B 69.5 44.4 57.0

Altuve’s move to left field has been a disaster in terms of defense (-10 DRS in just 362 innings), and it’s limited him to just 0.8 WAR despite a solid season at the plate (.276/.339/.456, 119 wRC+). Even so, it’s been a good season for him in terms of counting stats, as he’s up to 2,367 hits and 251 homers (he’s surpassed 20 for the seventh time).

Most importantly, since I checked in last summer, Altuve inched over the 40-WAR peak mark, though I believe that happened when Baseball Reference published its preseason WAR update, affecting park factors and DRS data, because last season wasn’t one of his seven best. Nonetheless, he’s now surpassed Pedroia and Ian Kinsler in the JAWS rankings, and is up to 19th; of the next five second basemen above him in the rankings, four are Hall of Famers, namely Billy Herman (47.8 JAWS), Joe Gordon (50.2), Craig Biggio (53.7) and Roberto Alomar (55.0). As noted last year, the further we get from the Astros’ sign-stealing scandal, the less it seems likely to affect his Hall chances, particularly given reports that he rejected the help provided by the trash can signaling system. Between that and the lack of contemporary second basemen who could gain entry, I like his chances even if he winds up being — wait for it — short in JAWS.

Marcus Semien, 2B
Category Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Current 49.2 40.6 44.9
2025: 3.3 | ROS: 0.1 Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Projected End 2025 49.3 40.6 44.9
HOF Standard 2B 69.5 44.4 57.0

Marcus Semien surpassed the 40-WAR peak mark last year, which may come as a surprise unless you’ve been paying attention, since his three All-Star appearances and lone Gold Glove make for modest totals. He’s been shortchanged in both departments, particularly as his 54 DRS since moving to second base in 2020 ranks second in the majors; unfortunately, he plays in the same league as Andrés Giménez, who leads with 65 DRS and has taken home the last three AL Gold Gloves himself.

Semien got a comparatively late start for Hall purposes, playing just 85 games with 1.4 WAR before his age-24 season in 2015. Nonetheless, he’s put himself on the radar by combining impressive power (a high of 45 homers in 2021, and 78 across ’22-24), excellent defense, and durability (he played 159 or more games five times from 2019–24). He’s banked three seasons of at least 7.0 WAR, which is tied for third among active position players. Matt Chapman and Aaron Judge have as many, with only Mookie Betts (four), and Mike Trout (seven) ahead of them; if you count Shohei Ohtani’s pitching WAR, he’s got four seasons of at least 9.0, but that’s not a fair comparison. Since the start of 2019, only Judge (45.6), Juan Soto (38.0), and Betts (37.9) have higher WAR numbers among position players. Semien is now up to 23rd among second basemen in JAWS, just below Jeff Kent (45.6), Kinsler (46.1) and Pedroia (46.4).

Alas, after digging his way out from a miserably slow start, the 34-year-old Semien — now hitting .230/.305/.364 (88 wRC+) — may be done for the season, as he’s landed on the IL with a fractured third metatarsal and a Lisfranc sprain in his left foot. The timeline on his return is four to six weeks; the regular season ends in five weeks, and the Rangers (66-67) are currently 5 1/2 games out of the third AL Wild Card spot, so there may not be reason for him to suit up again.

Shortstop

Francisco Lindor, SS
Category Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Current 53.9 41.3 47.6
2025: 4.1 | ROS: 1.1 Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Projected End 2025 55.0 41.5 48.3
HOF Standard SS 67.7 43.2 55.4

From a JAWS standpoint, Francisco Lindor has left his shortstop cohort in the dust. Two years ago, in my mid-2023 roundup, Lindor’s 38.0 JAWS trailed Carlos Correa (39.2), though he still had the edge on Semien (36.2, and at that point still classified as a shortstop), Xander Bogaerts (34.7), Trea Turner (30.0). Lindor totaled 6.1 WAR that year (fifth in the NL) while clubbing 31 homers and stealing 31 bases (his first 30-30 season). He followed that up — and finally seemed to win a place in the hearts of Mets fans — with 6.9 WAR last year (third in the NL) as well as 33 homers, the last of which helped the Mets clinch a Wild Card berth. He then added a grand slam off the Phillies’ Carlos Estévez that provided all the Mets’ scoring in the Division Series clincher, and came up big in the team’s two NLCS victories against the Dodgers.

On the heels of his second-place finish in the NL MVP voting, Lindor was finally elected to start the All-Star Game this year, his fifth career appearance but his first since 2019, when he was still with Cleveland. Like the rest of the Mets, he’s had his ups and downs this season while hitting .265/.334/.461 (124 wRC+), but with 25 homers and 23 steals, he’s got another shot at 30-30, and he projects to nudge his peak score — which passed 40.0 last year — up a bit. He’s now 19th in JAWS among shortstops, 11 spots ahead of Correa; it’ll take a couple seasons for him to make more headway, as the next two shortstops in the rankings are Jack Glasscock (51.5 JAWS) and Joe Cronin (54.3). Lindor is still just 31 and is well shy of 2,000 hits (he has 1,630), but if he stays at shortstop, he’s got a very good shot at surpassing Cal Ripken Jr.’s record 345 homers at the position; he’s got 265 (271 total). More than ever, it seems clear that Cooperstown is in his future.

Carlos Correa, SS
Category Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Current 45.5 38.4 41.9
2025: 1.2 | ROS: 0.6 Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Projected End 2025 46.1 38.4 42.3
HOF Standard SS 67.7 43.2 55.4

Plantar fasciitis and other injuries have slowed Correa’s progress. After posting a strong 5.3 WAR in 2022, his first season with the Twins, he totaled just 5.1 in 304 games over the next 2 2/3 seasons before his shocking trade back to the Astros, who have shifted him to third base. So far, he’s taken to the move, hitting .349/.407/.494 with 1.1 WAR in just 21 games, compared to 0.1 in his final 93 games with the Twins.

Last year’s 3.7 WAR (in just 86 games) was Correa’s seventh-best season. He’s not yet to the 40-WAR peak score but still has some low-hanging fruit, with two of his seven best seasons below 4.0 WAR and a third one below 5.0. As he nears his 31st birthday (September 22), he’s still young enough to rebound according to the calendar, but one does wonder about the condition of his wheels.

Corey Seager, SS
Category Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Current 42.3 35.3 38.8
2025: 5.5 | ROS: 0.9 Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Projected End 2025 43.2 36.2 39.7
HOF Standard SS 67.7 43.2 55.4

When I checked in last July, Corey Seager’s 32.9 JAWS was a whisker behind Turner (33.0) and well behind Bogaerts (37.2), but he’s been the most productive of the three since. Though he lost nearly all of last September to a sports hernia and played just 123 games, he finished with 5.0 WAR and reached the 30-homer plateau for the third time. He’s at 5.5 WAR now — already his second-highest total — in just 99 games, having made two trips to the injured list for a recurrent right hamstring strain. He’s currently hitting .269/.369/.473 (132 wRC+) with 19 homers and a career-high 14 DRS, which stands in marked contrast to his 3 FRV; he’s got a career gap of 19 runs between the two systems (14 DRS, -5 FRV). Beyond the advanced stats, his five All-Star appearances are already the equal of Lindor and more than Correa (who has three). Seager also has two top-three MVP finishes and is the only two-time World Series MVP besides Reggie Jackson. He’s got Hall-caliber talent; the question is whether he can stay on the field.

Also noteworthy: Bogaerts is back at shortstop after a partial-season detour to second; his defense has gotten mixed marks from the metrics (6 FRV, -3 DRS), which has often been the case. His real problem is that at 32, his bat doesn’t seem special anymore; his .262/.330/.390 (104 wRC+) line marks his second straight season with a slugging percentage below .400. He hasn’t had a 5-WAR season since 2022, has totaled just 3.2 WAR since the start of ’24, and has a 42.0/34.3/38.2 line.

On the other hand, the 32-year-old Turner is on the rebound after totaling just 6.5 WAR over the past two seasons. Defense (a combined -26 DRS, though just -6 FRV) dragged him down, but this year he’s in the midst of an uptick (1 DRS, 11 FRV) while hitting .300/.354/.449 (123 wRC+) with 14 homers and 32 steals. His 4.5 WAR ranks ninth in the NL and is his fourth-best season, but with just two seasons of at least 5.0 WAR, his 40.9/31.9/36.4 line ranks 46th among shortstops. Color me skeptical about his chances. Also, if you’re wondering about Betts, he’s still classified as a right fielder and will be in the next installment.

Third Base

Nolan Arenado, 3B
Category Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Current 57.6 44.2 50.9
2025: 1.1 | ROS: 0.4 Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Projected End 2025 58.0 44.2 51.1
HOF Standard 3B 68.9 43.4 56.1

At 34 years old, Nolan Arenado seems to be falling apart before our very eyes. Currently sidelined by a right shoulder strain that will likely keep him out into early September, he’s hitting just .235/.294/.366 with 10 homers and an 83 wRC+, the lowest full-season mark of his career (he had a 76 wRC+ in 48 games in 2020). He was more productive last year (.272/.325/.394, 102 wRC+), but he rarely hits the ball hard anymore; since the start of last season, he’s got a meager 3.5% barrel rate and 31.9% hard-hit rate as well as an 86.5-mph average exit velocity.

Fortunately, most of Arenado’s heavy lifting is done. Despite injuries and the pandemic-shortened 2020 season, he averaged 16 DRS from 2013–22 while bringing home 10 consecutive Gold Gloves. Thanks in large part to that defense, his 44.2 WAR peak score ranks 13th at the position, ahead of the standard as well as his contemporaries (for the moment). He’s still above average (5 DRS) at the hot corner, which gives his value a much-needed floor; I’m not optimistic he can get the 10 WAR he needs to reach the third base standard, but I do think his hardware and homers (he’s at 351) will be enough to get him elected.

José Ramírez, 3B
Category Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Current 56.7 43.6 50.1
2025: 4.8 | ROS: 1.1 Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Projected End 2025 57.8 44.8 51.3
HOF Standard 3B 68.9 43.4 56.1

José Ramírez is the Little Engine That Could. At 32, he’s got seven All-Star selections and five top-five finishes in the AL MVP voting, and he passed the 40-WAR peak threshold two years ago. Since my last roundup, he matched his career high in homers (39), set a new high in stolen bases (41), and added 5.4 points of JAWS; with that, he’s climbed five spots in the third base rankings, from 26th to 21st, and he’s still chugging along.

Ramírez is hitting .288/.362/.512 (135 wRC+) with 26 homers and 36 steals, giving him a strong chance at his third 30-30 season. His 4.8 WAR has already matched last year’s total and is (again) his seventh-best season. If he matches his rest-of-season projection, he’ll have the 12th-highest peak score at the position, leapfrogging not only Machado and Arenado but also Hall of Famers Edgar Martinez and Scott Rolen. With 1,637 hits and 281 homers, his counting stats don’t yet look Hall-caliber, but make no mistake, this guy is on his way.

Also noteworthy: If not for the right quad strain that knocked him out of action for seven weeks, Alex Bregman might have finally banked his third season of at least 5.0 WAR; he had seasons of 7.6 and 8.9 in 2018 and ’19, but with 4.0 WAR so far and 0.7 projected for the rest of the season, he may land in the 4.0–4.9 range for the fifth time. The 31-year-old Bregman has just three All-Star appearances and one Gold Glove, but with a 43.6/38.3/40.9 line, he’s not far off from that 40-WAR peak… Matt Chapman has five Gold Gloves and three 7-WAR seasons, but just one All-Star selection. He’s 32 but remains an exceptional defender, and has a lot of room to improve his 41.1/36.7/38.9 line.





Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.

126 Comments
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Jorge Soler vs Train (UNEXPECTED)
11 months ago

Does Jorge Soler have a chance?

tjcook87Member since 2020
11 months ago

I mean, he’s got a better chance than I do, let’s put it that way.

RyanPMember since 2016
11 months ago

In a ‘Dumb and Dumber’ sense, yes.

PressXToJason
11 months ago

If he has Mike Trout’s 20s in his 30s, sure.

bookbookMember since 2024
11 months ago
Reply to  PressXToJason

If he’s Edgar Martinez’ 30s in his 30s, sure.

nategreat
11 months ago

Probably for the Braves, 2021 World Series mvp!

loria_estefan
11 months ago

I’d bet on the train, personally

tjcook87Member since 2020
11 months ago

Adopting Semien and Chapman as my fringe cases. I doubt that either will reach the kind of counting stats needed, but it’s fun to pull for them to keep it together at peak levels just long enough to have a shot. Love watching both players on the field.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
11 months ago
Reply to  tjcook87

Chapman could end up deserving on merit but have no real chance based on voting patterns.

cashgod27Member since 2024
11 months ago

Speaking of Andrés Giménez, he is actually sixth in bWAR through age-25 among second basemen since integration, but his lackluster season has him only 13th through age-26, and his skill set is not one I see aging especially gracefully. Still interesting, in my opinion

David Klein
11 months ago
Reply to  cashgod27

Also he’s been hurt this year and his 2022 offensive season is the ultimate outlier season

Left of Centerfield
11 months ago
Reply to  cashgod27

Obviously, it’s hard to predict how someone will age. With Gimenez, I look at someone like Ozzie Smith. Granted, a different position but I think people forget how bad a hitter Smith was early in his career.

I’m not sure how to compile his wRC+, but through age 26, Smith had a 66 OPS+. (compared to 98 for Gimenez). Yet Smith ended his career with an 87 OPS+.

Another is Omar Vizquel who was at 70 through age 26 and ended with 82.

So there are light-hitting, defensive-first middle infielders who hit better as they age. Though I’m sure they’re the exception, not the rule.

Paul BoisvertMember since 2021
11 months ago

Hi, LoC,
It’s easy to compile Ozzie’s RC+ thru age 26. Go to his player dashboard at Fangraphs, and as the instructions above his stats say, hold shift and then click on the start year, and then do it again on the end year, of any consecutive span of years. His totals and rates for that span then appear in a new, temporary row under those years. His WRC+ thru age 26 is 69, supporting your point that Gimenez has so far been a better hitter than Ozzie was at the same age.

But Gimenez has been regressing as a hitter for 4 years, and Ozzie Smiths occur about once every 4000 players. Gimenez has essentially zero chance of making (or even deserving) the HOF. He has until now been a quite good player overall, in fact playing at an average WAR/PA rate around 15% above typical minimum HOF levels, but that rate will continue to diminish over time, and fairly quickly once he hits 30, if not sooner. I’d be surprised if he even got 35 WAR (avg. of fWar and bWar).

Left of Centerfield
11 months ago
Reply to  Paul Boisvert

Thanks, I appreciate the info!

As for Gimenez, I agree that his chance of making the hall is small. But people would have said the same about Smith at the same age. In fact, Gimenez is ahead of Smith through age 26 (19.7 bWAR vs 10.9). Yes a long shot but better than 0.

Last edited 11 months ago by Left of Centerfield
Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
11 months ago

The Wizard was a league average hitter from 27-37, after a 69 wRC+ from 23-26, in no small part because he walked twice as much as he struck out.

Gimenez has a tough road to hoe.

stkahlaMember since 2019
11 months ago

Hmmm I wonder what was going on in 2018 and 19 that might explain why Bregman had his best seasons by 2+ war.
Also in your bit about Turner after his slash line it says he has a 12 WRC+, I believe it should be 123 WRC+

Greg SimonsMember since 2016
11 months ago
Reply to  stkahla

Please tell us what you think was going on in 2018 and ’19.

JuuuustAnotherBaseballFanMember since 2018
11 months ago
Reply to  Greg Simons

I think he meant to refer to the 2017 season as well. Trash cans. Buzzers. That kind of stuff.

twobetrayals
11 months ago
Reply to  stkahla

If you think that raises any flags, look at the 2018 Red Sox roster and how all their top hitters had mysteriously peak seasons.

PressXToJason
11 months ago
Reply to  twobetrayals

Literally 3 of their regulars had their best seasons that year, and they were Mookie and JD Martinez – who already had MVP level offensive seasons before that year and bWARs within 20%, and Mookie had multiple after that, because he was like 25 and peaking like a normal athlete – and Benintendi, a 23 year old who, with his frame, was always going to be at his athletic peak before his late 20s. Actually not an outsized amount of peak seasons for a team loaded with guys in their mid-20s. Two of their top 6, and half of their top 8, 10, and 12 players in terms of bWAR were pitchers. It’s not like Brock Holt or Mitch Moreland became a 4-win player. They had *just* five 2-win hitters, and all of them did it multiple times after that.

Compare that to the 2017 Astros, who had no pitchers in their top 6 in bWAR, and whose top 12 is littered with guys who were sub-0.5 bWAR within a couple years and/or out of MLB within 5 years. Reddick, Gurriel, Marisnick, Gonzalez are the obvious regulars who benefitted, guys around or over 30 having unprecedented peaks. Springer hasn’t had a single season worth 2/3s of his average HOU season since. Altuve has had 2 seasons that have been half as valuable since. Bregman and Correa are the only ones who have even somewhat regularly approached 2016-2019 performance since, and, well, they were in their early 20s, so their normal peak was ahead of them.

Brock244
11 months ago
Reply to  twobetrayals

That’s not really true..

Bogaerts and Devers were better after that season. JBJ was better before 18. JD Martinez had an equally good 2017.

Mookie is really the only guy w a career year and he had many other MVP caliber seasons before and after 18

68FCMember since 2020
11 months ago
Reply to  stkahla

We all know what you are getting at, but the actual answer is the juiced ball and the Crawford boxes. His batted ball data all has stayed very consistent over his career. He was just uniquely positioned to benefit from the ball carrying a few more feet as an extreme pull flyball hitter in a park with a short LF porch.

OddBall Herrera
11 months ago
Reply to  68FC

Yeah, that’s the problem with the “trash can banging” thing. In the era where MLB messes with the baseball every year, there’s more than one signal you have to worry about for stats. So, yeah, he put up a career high .ISO in 2019. EVERYONE put up a career high .ISO in 2019. And it was the guys who aren’t necessarily statcast darlings, like Bregman, who benefited the most.

mattMember since 2023
11 months ago
Reply to  stkahla

So i guess your theory is the cheating only greatly effected 1 player? Look at how correa/altuve continued to rake. What made bregman so special?

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
11 months ago
Reply to  matt

I mean, Gonzalez, Marisnick, and Reddick say hello.

Lanidrac
11 months ago
Reply to  stkahla

Probably the same thing that boosted the offenses of other players like Christian Yelich and Matt Chapman those two years.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
11 months ago

I do think the 75 run gap between Lindor’s FRV(+2015 UZR) and DRS is worth noting.

I figure universal adoption of FRV is inevitable, particularly since the split data is granular enough to allow a truly defense-adjusted version of a run prevention-based pitching WAR.

(It won’t be great for Correa, either)

Last edited 11 months ago by Cool Lester Smooth
Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
11 months ago

Maybe for current evaluation but for HoF purposes one might want apples to apples comparisons

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
11 months ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

Apples to apples went out the window when they started using DRS instead of TZ.

FRV isn’t UZR – Savant’s dataset is just objectively better than BIS’s…and for the exact use cases that BRef needs for their WAR.

Smiling PolitelyMember since 2018
11 months ago

an article analyzing the past/current/future state of defensive analytics might be fun!

sadtromboneMember since 2020
11 months ago

I don’t think you can really make an argument for someone based on their DRS, which means that JAWS is going to have a really hard time going forward.

Obviously if DRS sees someone as the greatest shortstop of their generation, and you can lop off a third of that value and they’re still a Hall of Famer, that’s a good thing. We did use total zone for a while. But DRS gives out so many outlier numbers you can’t really take it literally. It’s usually directionally correct but it is way, way too aggressive with positive and negative attributions to build a big case around it.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
11 months ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Brett Lawrie: Generational 3B!

And yeah, you could make an argument for DRS against UZR…but FRV is just better.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
11 months ago

UZR’s problem was that it no longer worked when teams started shifting so heavily. But DRS’s problem is so fundamental, which is that it is trying to measure who gets credit at a level that is so far beyond what it can actually measure.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
11 months ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

At this point, I have to wonder whether it’s pride or if they’re locked into a contract with BIS, haha

Greg SimonsMember since 2016
11 months ago

“he’s got” = “he has”

Jorge FabregasMember since 2016
11 months ago
Reply to  Greg Simons

the whole world in his hands

GB
11 months ago

Goldschmidt hits number is incorrect. Looks like a typo on the order of the digits

Last edited 11 months ago by GB
jacksonv123
11 months ago

Would love to see a Goldy Dbacks reunion. Perfect platoon partner for Pavin Smith and let him retire a Snake.

AnonMember since 2025
11 months ago

Just pulled up Chapman’s player page at b-ref. He has a loooong way to go on counting stats. He has 976 hits, 548 RBI, 640 runs, and 198 HR and is already in his age-32 season. Going to be extremely difficult to make it with such low career totals.

tjcook87Member since 2020
11 months ago
Reply to  Anon

Ya, it’s such a big hill to climb, no matter the WAR total, he’s just not racking up big hit totals. If he gets to 1500, I’ll be impressed, but that’s likely way too low for serious consideration.

(To be clear, I want him to get to that point where he’s in consideration. Rooting for him.)

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
11 months ago
Reply to  Anon

He could end up in Longoria, Groh, Boyer no man’s land if he stays really good

darren
11 months ago
Reply to  Anon

He reminds me of Donaldson. Late start, in Oakland, really good value stats. Donaldson had a chance to make a good HOF case based on advanced stats that would have looked awful by traditional numbers, but he couldn’t quite stay great long enough. Chapman has a chance to do something similar.

MarkZMember since 2016
11 months ago
Reply to  darren

Donaldson and Chapman both also have some baggage.

tjcook87Member since 2020
11 months ago
Reply to  MarkZ

What’s Chapman’s baggage? (Matt, to be clear – if you’re referring to Aroldis, then yes, absolutely, but that’s also a different conversation)

Dmjn53
11 months ago
Reply to  MarkZ

What baggage?

DDMember since 2020
11 months ago

Where’s Bryce Harper in the 1B section? Or is he an outfielder for these purposes?

JustinPBGMember since 2018
11 months ago
Reply to  DD

I think because most of his WAR is OF

tjcook87Member since 2020
11 months ago
Reply to  DD

I believe he was an outfielder last year, as most of his career value to this date has been accumulated there.

tjcook87Member since 2020
11 months ago
Reply to  tjcook87

(*last year – in last year’s notebook/update, not on the field)

carterMember since 2020
11 months ago

I know you mentioned it, but there is a pretty big difference in WAR on bWAR and fWar for some of these guys. Olson much lower here, Altuve much higher, etc

carterMember since 2020
11 months ago
Reply to  carter

2.5 war difference on Seager as well

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
11 months ago
Reply to  carter

5 WAR for Lindor

MikeSMember since 2020
11 months ago

So many of these guys are going to get in compared to the pitchers because player usage hasn’t changed very much. We haven’t even done outfielders yet. This is what I mean when I say I don’t want it to become the “Hall of Great Hitters with the Occasional Pitcher.”

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
11 months ago
Reply to  MikeS

And occasional fielder but that’s what it was for a century. Actually hall of .300 hitters.

Last edited 11 months ago by Ivan_Grushenko
AlbyMember since 2025
11 months ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

All the dead-ball era pitchers used to balance it out.

John DiFool2
11 months ago
Reply to  MikeS

But the ability of players over 35 to remain active has taken a definite hit, and as a result the traditional counting stats of today’s top candidates will look relatively meager as compared to many players already in the Hall. Combined with the shortened 2020 season, the voters will have to adjust their standards or we’ll get another big backlog like we did a decade ago. At the very least the gap between public and private voters will likely only get bigger.

Lanidrac
11 months ago
Reply to  John DiFool2

If the best hitters are having trouble staying active past 35, that’s still mostly their own faults. It just means fewer hitters from this era will be deserving of the Hall, not that the standards should change. It still won’t be much of a drop on a percentage basis.

avogadrothemoleMember since 2020
11 months ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Isn’t that the same argument as “Scherzer socks because he does not throw 300 innings” and “Palmer sucked because he did not throw 400” and “everyone socks because Old Hoss Radbourne threw 600?”

Baseball has become (comparatively to decades prior) extremely ageist. If teams are increasingly uninterested in giving 35+ players a chance because they expect a cliff that has not yet arrived or (at least as importantly) decide they can get 75% of the production for 10% (or less) the dollars….how do we hold the players responsible for that compared to bygone eras?

Dmjn53
11 months ago

I don’t know if it’s a case of team not giving them a chance as much as it is that the athleticism and bat speed required to play is significantly higher than it was in past eras, and there’s no greenies to pop or a new cream to try.

Like this year players 35 and older have combined for 6731 PA but only 10.4 WAR, 6.5 of which belongs to Springer and Freeman. It’s just hard to argue that players that old belong at this level

johnsandiegoMember since 2024
11 months ago

Goldschmidt does not have 2,700+ hits. He’s sitting at 2,100

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
11 months ago
Reply to  johnsandiego

Then he should get up and get 600 more

tjcook87Member since 2020
11 months ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

“You! Strawberry! Hit a home run!”

snakestl
11 months ago

“Seager also has two top-three MVP finishes and is the only two-time World Series MVP besides Reggie Jackson.“

Sandy Koufax 1963, 1965
Bob Gibson 1964, 1967

notstarboard
11 months ago

Pedroia did not remotely exonerate Machado; he didn’t even mention him and said he was “at peace”. There is a difference between Pedroia having class / wanting to move on and Pedroia thinking Machado’s slide was clean and fine.

The fact remains that Machado ended a HoF-track player’s career and likely kept him out of the HoF with a dirty slide. That is far from the only incident on his record. I put him in the same category as the steroid users; if you think the HoF is for the best players no matter what, sure, he’s on track to be in; if you think respect for the game is part of the equation, there’s a strong argument against him no matter what he does from here on out.

Last edited 11 months ago by notstarboard
Mitchell MooreMember since 2020
11 months ago
Reply to  notstarboard

For Boston fanboys/Pedroia’s posse there may be “a strong argument against him,” but not for the rational.

carterMember since 2020
11 months ago
Reply to  notstarboard

People can change, though. I do think there will be voters who do not vote for him for the reasons you mentioned however

AlbyMember since 2025
11 months ago
Reply to  carter

He won’t be a unanimous selection, let’s put it that way. If enough people remember he might even have to wait a year.

darren
11 months ago
Reply to  notstarboard

Although I disagree that Machado’s HOF case will be at all affected by this, I do agree that it’s not exactly clear whether Pedroia has exonerated him. He seemed to be talking about how he felt about the event more than how he felt about Machado. Machado’s reputation as a dirty player seems to have faded a bit over the past few years.

I also don’t think Pedroia’s opinion matters much here. Anyone can watch the play and determine for themselves if it was dirty.

carterMember since 2020
11 months ago
Reply to  darren

I am not saying it will make him not get in, but you don’t think 1 or 2 ppl would hold a vote for him for that reason? Hell not everyone voted for Ichiro

sadtromboneMember since 2020
11 months ago

Pretty sure Lindor, Freeman, and Ramirez are in. Even if you think they’re not there yet they are not remotely close to being done.

AlbyMember since 2025
11 months ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Knock wood.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
11 months ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Yep – if they don’t get the counting numbers, it’ll be for a “what could have been” reason that makes up for it.

PC1970Member since 2024
11 months ago

Yeah, they’ll get the Kirby Puckett treatment.

Which is ironic cuz Puckett is borderline AT BEST (& that’s not taking into account his off field issues, which came out after he got in), but, really he got in because he got this weird eye issue that ended his career suddenly..

TKDCMember since 2016
11 months ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Yeah, I agree and I think Altuve is too as long as he doesn’t get punished for trash cans. Arenado and Goldschmidt are both on their last legs and kinda look like long-wait-but-in guys to me.

That would be six infielders in a ~6 year age group, that could also potentially have only a single starting pitcher (Kershaw), though I’d assume at least 1-2 of Sale/Cole/deGrom makes it.

ETA: forgot about Machado who “dirty player” aside will get in.

Last edited 11 months ago by TKDC
sadtromboneMember since 2020
11 months ago
Reply to  TKDC

I think there is a very good chance that Altuve will get in but hoo boy he does not look anything like he did a couple years ago. Not even really a year ago. And he’s been really bad in left field, enough that if he doesn’t improve a lot next year they might play Yordan Alvarez more in left field than they want.

But his counting numbers are going to look great because he is going to get paid $25M a year for the next four years, so as long as he’s above replacement level they’re not going to cut him.

I think Goldschmidt is more likely to get in than not because Votto is seen as a lock, while they have similar cases in terms of WAR. But Votto was a better hitter so Goldschmidt might have a harder time making a case.

I don’t think Arenado makes it.

RobertMember since 2017
11 months ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I think both Votto and Goldy should get in. Goldy has some pretty good base running and first base defense at peak to go with his hitting

TKDCMember since 2016
11 months ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I think the Astros decide to let him be bad at second instead for a couple years, and/or he’s a DH. But this feels like a bit extreme in tone for a guy running his hitting line.

carterMember since 2020
11 months ago
Reply to  TKDC

I mean 120 wrc vs career 129. Sure he had a peak 164 and 154 season, and he isn’t *that* anymore, but lots of people would take 25 home runs and 280/340/460 for a “decline”. Doesn’t help that it’s in LF obviously but he’s running a low babip which is about 30 points off of career norms, and still has 2.0 war with horrible defense. He should go back to 2nd, don’t really understand the move to left in the first place.

It is a bit telling that Alvarez first game back he is in left and Altuve is the DH.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
11 months ago
Reply to  TKDC

I know he has beaten his Statcast data regularly, perhaps every year since we had it (it was either that or close) but he is in Andres Gimenez / Isiah Kiner-Falefa territory in hard hit rate. That’s probably a better judge of where he is at than average EV (where he has always been bad and is terrible right now) but it seems pretty clear that the arrow is trending down. I think that in two years he won’t be good enough to start for a team with World Series aspirations.

TKDCMember since 2016
11 months ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

In two years he’ll still be a 9x all star with an mvp, three batting titles and a key part of two WS titles. A nice, higher hit total would be great but he doesn’t need it. A few more years to pad his career counting totals is just moving him from maybe-has-to-wait to easy first ballot.

Lanidrac
11 months ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

If Andruw Jones deserves to get in, then so does does Arenado, while the latter can still pad his counting stats.

Lanidrac
11 months ago
Reply to  TKDC

Goldschmidt could retire tomorrow and get in sooner rather than later, and Arenado isn’t far from that position himself.

darren
11 months ago

The Rangers look like geniuses for assembling the Semien/Seager middle infield. Since 2022:

Semien: 17.2 fWAR, 20.8 bWAR
Seager: 18.9 fWAR, 21.4 bWAR

I know, I know, they paid $500 mil for them but both of those contracts are looking really good. Semien’s basically already earned his $175 mil. Seager–in the midst of a 6-WAR year–only needs 15-20 more WAR to be worth his.

As big contracts go, these are a couple of the best.

grandbranyanMember since 2017
11 months ago
Reply to  darren

I guess they got a World Series out of it so can’t complain too much, but an overall 302 W – 317 L record since 2022 speaks to how badly they’ve fumbled their other twenty plus active roster spots over the majority of that time frame.

Next best Rangers since 2022 have been Eovaldi (12.1 rWAR), Nathaniel Lowe (8.7 WAR) and Adolis (8.4 WAR).

Guess Langford (6.4 WAR) gives something to look forward to, Heim (6.3 WAR) has been a perfectly cromulent backstop, and deGrom (6.1 rWAR) has delivered when healthy.

With Seager/Semien at the top accounting for so much of the team’s WAR though it might be one of the more Stars & Scrubsy set ups over the last four years.

RobertMember since 2017
11 months ago
Reply to  grandbranyan

It gives them a nice floor and the pitching has looked good, but good lord the lineup has not worked as planned

Jason BMember since 2017
11 months ago
Reply to  Robert

That lineup looked like world-beaters not that long ago, but then Jung, Carter, Garcia, and Heim have all regressed and suddenly that fearsome lineup is decidedly less so.

gottaIch116Member since 2020
11 months ago

Surprised ohtani is not included in the blurb about players with at least three 7 win seasons under the Marcus Seimen section. According to fwar he should have 5 such seasons including the current one. Is his bwar lower?

gottaIch116Member since 2020
11 months ago
Reply to  gottaIch116

My bad. The list is only of active position players.

I suck at reading.

Last edited 11 months ago by gottaIch116
TKDCMember since 2016
11 months ago
Reply to  gottaIch116

More specifically, Ohtani seems like the one and only “unicorn” that was mentioned for the next entry.

RyanMember since 2024
11 months ago

I don’t think Altuve belongs in the HOF or has much of a chance. None of his top 5 similarity scores accumulated much or anything past their age 35 seasons. Cano was a significantly better player with lots of fun comparisons, but he had 2470 hits through his age 35 season and then only added another 169 in his career. The two on the top 10 who did get there with productive post 35 careers were Biggio and Brett. Brett was a significantly better player with a career 143 OPS+ and season 149 OPS+.

Biggio represents Altuve’s only realistic path in my opinion. He was in a higher offensive period so Altuve’s adjusted metrics are better but they had similar slash lines through age 35: Biggio .291/.381/.436/.818 in 1955 games to Altuve’s .304/.361/.467/.828 in 1948 (and counting) games. Altuve’s much higher batting average has him further ahead in hits: 2367 to 2149. Biggio’s age 35 season was much better than Altuve’s and it turned out to be his last above average season.

He’s signed for 4 more years and will need that many to get 600 more hits. With .8 bWAR this year he’s arguably not playable on merit but I think all 30 clubs would give him another chance next season. But without a rebound, I don’t see how the Astros can roster him for the 5 or 6 seasons it could take for him to limp across that line.

jtsnowdayMember since 2022
11 months ago
Reply to  Ryan

Cano’s post-age 35 career has a bit of an asterisk though, or really two: while he wasn’t good in 2019, his age 36 season, with a 94 wRC+ in 423 PA, Cano had a nice year in COVID-shortened 2020 (142 wRC+ in 182 PA), then was suspended for all of 2021. So really he didn’t fall off a cliff performance-wise until his age 39 season.

RyanMember since 2024
11 months ago
Reply to  jtsnowday

But Cano had over 100 more hits than Altuve to that point and he looked like an absolute lock for 3,000.

I don’t think Cano’s ped fueled 2020 resurgence is a point in Altuve’s favor. If we ignore the peds and the short season and give Cano 100 more hits on the year he still would have been at 2764 and would have needed at least 2 more seasons to cross the line.

The currently posted 3 year ZIPs has Altuve at 125 and 106 hits for the next two seasons which is probably low given this season. If he gets 30 more this year and then 150 and 130 over the next two that’s still 2680 heading into his age 38 season. When Pujols was done but still playing, he got 333 hits from ages 38 through 41 while putting up -.3 WAR and basically ruining the Angles and Trout’s prime.

I don’t know why I’m getting downvotes but any bet on Altuve getting 3k hits almost certainly involves the Astros taking a multi year competitive hit or cutting him and having him chase the record on a team like the Rockies or Pirates.

TKDCMember since 2016
11 months ago
Reply to  Ryan

Cano would also be pretty much a lock for the HOF if it weren’t for steroids.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
11 months ago
Reply to  TKDC

Yep – I honestly think he still had a shot after the first time, which he played off fairly well.

But after the second? Nada.

carterMember since 2020
11 months ago
Reply to  Ryan

Why do we assume he is going to be so bad? If you use fangraphs he’s been worth 2 war. I don’t think he’s gonna set the world on fire, but 120wrc he had going into yesterday.

RyanMember since 2024
11 months ago
Reply to  carter

Because almost no one with his profile produces after 35. Biggio is about the only case.

His number one comp is Ryne Sandberg. He retired at 35, came back had a good season at 36, a poor one at 37 then retired. Michael Young is number 2 and he retired after a bad 3rd bad season at 36. Joe Torre retired after a bad season at 36. Hanley Ramirez retired at 35. Ray Durham retired at 36. Biggio was productive through 40 and made it to 41. Cano had a crappy season at 36, cheated in 37 and then was awful. Kinsler was ok at 36 then bad at 37 and retired. Mauer was effective at 35 then retired. George Brett had a bad 36, great 37 and then hung around for 3 more ok seasons. He would represent another viable path but I can’t emphasize enough how much better of hitter he was so his decline gave him a lot more room to make a roster.

In the other overall similarity scores Utley had a good 35 and that was it. Brandon Phillips had an ok 36 and retired at 37. Bobby Doerr retired after 33 but that was in 1951 so I’m not sure that’s a great comp. V Mart had a great 35, a horrendous 36, ok 37 and very bad 38 and 39 before retiring.

He’s in this article because he’s clearly on a borderline HOF trajectory and many of the names listed above are in the hall and deserve to be there. But most of them had already punched their ticket at 35 while Altuve, in my opinion, still needs to do a significant amount to get there. There are enough cases of guys who put up 600 hits after 35 but as far as I can see, only Biggio looks remotely like Altuve’s profile.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
11 months ago
Reply to  Ryan

And Altuve didn’t spend nearly as much time training with Ken Caminiti and Jeff Bagwell as Biggio did, so I wouldn’t expect the same longevity.

David Klein
11 months ago
Reply to  jtsnowday

Also consider that mlb didn’t test for performance enhancers in 2020 and then he got popped in the offseason when they started testing again.

David Klein
11 months ago
Reply to  David Klein

I’m talking about Cano should have been more clear on my end.

TKDCMember since 2016
11 months ago
Reply to  Ryan

In addition to your noted difference in environment, Altuve also has an MVP and a World Series. He’s obviously a lock at 3,000 hits but what’s the most hits for someone not in the Hall of Fame? If you think the days of Baines and Parker making the Hall of Fame are over, please provide a reason.

So he will likely deserve inclusion unless you’re a stick in the mud…errr small hall guy, but whether he deserves it or not he will make it, unless the narrative around trash cans somehow swings back real bad.

RyanMember since 2024
11 months ago
Reply to  TKDC

On paper he has an MVP and World Series but in a HOF perspective he doesn’t have either.

I’m a big hall guy, but MLB’s own investigation concluded that he and his team were cheating for all of 2017 and part of 2018. I would personally bet a bunch of money he was still wearing a wire in 2019 with the whole ‘bad tattoo’ thing. If a person wants to ignore that incident and stick just with the 2017/18 you’ll still need to acknowledge that many voters aren’t going recognize a tainted MVP and WS as career accolades.

If he were squeaky clean and ends up with 60 WAR and 2800 hits he’d be a slam dunk in my book. But he cheated for a long a time and faced zero on field consequences for it and then still didn’t put together a slam dunk HOF career. I’d rather have have all the 80 WAR (and obviously 100+) steroid guys in than a 60 WAR cheater.

TKDCMember since 2016
11 months ago
Reply to  Ryan

He’s likable. He can just say he’s trying to get to the bottom of this David Ortiz style and he’ll get in.

The Hall is this close to voting in Beltran, who was the ringleader of the trash cans. I think you’re severely miscalculating the impact.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
11 months ago
Reply to  TKDC

Eh – Beltran introduced cracking the signs from replays.

Cora was on the coaching staff…and Cora brought the monitor into the dugout.

Separately:

There’s a 10 JAWS gap between Beltran and Altuve.

The former was an all-quadrants, no-doubt first ballot type absent the cheating – on top of 70 rWAR/57 JAWS, he had 400+ HR, 2700 hits, and a decade of great CF defense…and was an absolute monster in the postseason.

Last edited 11 months ago by Cool Lester Smooth
TKDCMember since 2016
11 months ago

Yeah, Beltran definitely had a better career by the numbers/metrics but really that is beside the point. Bonds, Clemens, and Arod were all obviously inner-circle HOF talents and never sniffed the 75%.

Ortiz and a few other guys that had less-than-credible ties to steroids, that were not nearly the legendary players that those three were, have made it.

These types of character things tend to be fairly binary. So, if Beltran makes it then it seems unlikely that any voters, outside of the usual look-at-me types, will firmly punish Altuve for it.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
11 months ago
Reply to  TKDC

I definitely think it’ll be interesting – after all, Bonds/Clemens and now A-Rod got a much longer leash than Palmeiro.

Hell, Piazza, Biggio and Bagwell even made it!

Last edited 11 months ago by Cool Lester Smooth
jaysfan39Member
11 months ago
Reply to  Ryan

I think he has a chance at 3000 but would certainly need some things to break right in order to get there but I don’t think he needs 3000 hits to make the HOF and is fairly likely to get there at some point.

His rankings as a 2nd baseman since integration

FWAR 10th
HRs 11th
Runs 16th
RBIs 16th
WRC+ 4th
Hits 11th
Doubles 6th

By the time he retires even with more decline over the next few seasons he will likely rank top 10 to top 5 in almost every offensive category for 2nd baseman since 1947.

Add to that 9 all star games, MVP votes in 8 seasons, top 5 in MVP 3 times, 7 silver sluggers, 1 MVP award, some postseason heroics and likely to play his whole career for one team which generally seems to get a bump in votes from some voters.

I also think the fact he is so much smaller than average modern baseball player will work in his favor because it gives him another layer of story to go with a career full of accomplishments.

I would be very surprised if he isn’t a hall of famer very soon after he is eligible although I could see it taking a year or two depending on how voters want to punish him for the sign stealing stuff.

OddBall Herrera
11 months ago

A few guys here on slam dunk trajectories, like Machado, but there are a few who are solidly in line for what I call the Jack Morris Rule: If people will use your election as an argument to try to bootstrap other guys who would otherwise face long odds, you shouldn’t be elected.

Ex: Semien and Altuve, and I would argue Correa and Seager for health reasons, seem to be on a trajectory where we’d have to lower the bar, perhaps significantly, to get them in.

Dmjn53
11 months ago

Yea I’m with you. I really like Semien as a player and am generally bigger Hall, but we’re talking about a very different bar if these guys are getting in

MattStats5Member since 2024
11 months ago

Absolutely love your work, Jay. THANK YOU!

mattMember since 2023
11 months ago

Machado hasn’t been in any serious trouble with SD, basically doc admitted that he leaked the machado throw to dugout to get media talking about something else. He had 1 kind of famous argument with tatis when he thought he was slacking. If you are mad he doesn’t run out groundballs he has a .5% chance of beating out that’s on you.

He’s been among the most durable players in baseball, consistently plays through pain, the idea he doesn’t love the game/winning is just dumb. He just goes at it in a slightly different way.

Last 2 times he signed deals people said he got his money so he’ll stop trying and that hasn’t happened. He’s also constantly talked about as the leader of the Padres and is loved in lockerroom, he’s grown up.

Last edited 11 months ago by matt
slz
11 months ago

Goldschmidt feels like he’s right on the line for me. Dangerous territory since he is looking pretty done in terms of providing value and the only compiling stat on the horizon is 400 HRs, which is probably going to require a couple years of replacement production to reach at this point

Freeman is in. Machado is in unless he shreds his leg or something this year. Altuve feels in, although he probably needs Houston to leave him at 2B another couple years. Lindor just needs to hang in there a couple more seasons. The Ripken HR record will get a lot of press in a couple years even though it’s kind of a fake record since ARod would have crushed it playing for any other team

Semien doesnt feel like he makes the cut and the clock is going to run out him. Seager and Correa do but they need to stay healthy and that is never a good proposition for MIFs. I think Seagar is likelier to make it but he needs to follow Correa’s path to a corner

I think Arenado should have more work to do but it’s probably true that he will get the necessary boost over the line if he is borderline, which is looking likely. Even with his bat deteriorating he should get to 2000 hits and, maybe, 400 HRs? It does feel like he has been passed by JRam, who is showing no signs of slowing down and may age like Beltre.

Trea Turner has a play time problem. He only got to 1500 hits this year and he seems like a guy who should be going for 3000. He also doesnt quite have the eye-popping SB numbers you would expect from a guy with his speed. He stole 57 bases in 63 games as a freshman in college then IIRC tweaked something that caused him to dial it back the next year and never really pushed for elite SB production after that, choosing to just put up league-leading or near it baserunning production every season without compiling the “oh my god Shohei Ohtani stole 59 bases!” type of individual accolade

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
11 months ago
Reply to  slz

Goldy’s at 55 JAWS – and even using FG’s fielding numbers keeps him at 60 rWAR/40 peak, safely over 50 JAWs.

Throw in an MVP and rule-of-cool stuff like his 30 SB season and I think he’s safe.

Dmjn53
11 months ago
Reply to  slz

Not specific to Goldschmidt, but it is objectively ridiculous that a player has better HOF chances if he plays 3 extra crappy seasons to reach an arbitrary round HR number then if he just never plays those crappy seasons at all

Last edited 11 months ago by Dmjn53
frankenspock
11 months ago

The hall of fame standard is an average of guys in the HoF, btw, not a line you must cross or you don’t get into the Hall. By this standard even sure-thing HoFers like Clayton Kershaw still fall a bit short in the peak WAR department.

Western Metal SupplyMember since 2021
11 months ago

Sorry but “Padres’ rivalry with the dodgers” c’mon, Jaffe…

JOHN MEARSMember since 2020
11 months ago

If Altuve gets in before Grich I’m going to throw up.

https://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2008/12/if_gordon_then.php

Yer Main GuyMember since 2024
11 months ago

Arenado, if he stopped now, is still only a little bit ahead (bWAR, and also oWAR and dWAR) of Robin Ventura, who got only 1.3 PCT on one measly ballot. He had a better peak though, so maybe this is a test of the war7 hypothesis.

maguroMember since 2016
11 months ago
Reply to  Yer Main Guy

Arenado has a fair amount of black ink from his Colorado days, which will help.

Lanidrac
11 months ago
Reply to  Yer Main Guy

His case is similar to Andruw Jones (but with more time left for career stat padding), who has been gaining steady support. Why would you keep out a Top 5 defensive 3B of all time who will also have over 2,000 hits and around 400 HRs when he’s done?

Lanidrac
11 months ago

Keep in mind that Arenado was playing hurt when his offense crashed in July. I’d expect his offense to revert back to being close to league average upon his return from the IL.

jazzrunner12Member since 2017
11 months ago

Giancarlo Stanton is on a renaissance tour the last couple months. If he can stay on the field over the next two years he might end up with 500 homers which would put him in the discussion.

Dmjn53
11 months ago
Reply to  jazzrunner12

He’ll be a fun successor to the “Is Nick Markakis a HOF if he gets 3000 hits?” Argument

The Duke
10 months ago

The Astros players are certainly polarizing. On the one hand the cheating, on the other hand the amazing dynastic run. Altuve has been at the center of both. If anyone should get a big post-season bump it is him.

So for me he’s basically a lock – just depends on how the cheating gets perceived

Goldy and Freeman are slam dunks. Machado easily bests Arenado. Nolan looks like he won’t make it now with his case being highly dependent on defense. He’s basically a weaker Scott Rolen. He looks a lot like Ken Boyer to me

How many 3B from the era will go? Machado, Arenado, bregman, Ramirez, Chapman . They all can’t go