Do Early Decline Players Share Any Traits?

Last year, two of the most notable free agent signings of the winter were inexplicably terrible. Carl Crawford went from being an All-Star to a replacement level scrub, while Adam Dunn went from productive slugger to the worst hitter in baseball – well, almost – Orlando Cabrera just barely edged him out. Obviously, Crawford and Dunn are about as different as any two players in baseball, as Crawford is a speed-based gap hitter who produces a lot of value with his glove, while Dunn is a walks-and-homers guy who rightfully spent the year as a DH.

Neither player had shown any real sign that their skills were regressing, and while Dunn’s struggles could have just been a guy with old-player-skills getting old early, Crawford was 29 and in his athletic prime. It’s possible that either or both could bounce back and resume their previous levels of production, but their struggles got me wondering about whether there are certain player types that are more prone to this kind of out-of-nowhere collapse of production.

In order to look at this a little closer, I polled our FanGraphs staff looking for guys who were quality players for multiple years and then just turned into a pumpkin overnight. Because I was looking for guys whose decline wasn’t easily explainable, we’re omitting players who had significant injuries or were too far on the wrong side of 30 – this isn’t so much a question about aging curves or the effects of a body breaking down as it is a question of whether players who derive value from a certain type of performance are more likely to just see that value dry up overnight. We’re also only looking at position players, because pitchers are their own complicated story with a totally different mix of problems.

Here’s the list of guys that we came up with last night – it’s not a comprehensive list, and I’m hopeful you guys will add more names to the pile, but it’s a decent start.

Name PA HR SB wOBA wRC+ Fld WAR
Andruw Jones 8395 420 152 0.354 112 276.7 71.7
Edgardo Alfonzo 6108 146 53 0.345 108 32.5 33
George Bell 6592 265 67 0.342 111 -13 24.4
Alvin Davis 5010 160 7 0.365 124 -20 24.2
Richard Hidalgo 3929 171 48 0.355 110 66.8 23.7
Chone Figgins 5090 33 333 0.326 99 -1.9 22.8
Alex Rios 4695 118 162 0.330 98 56.9 20.7
Marcus Giles 3340 76 70 0.344 107 14.5 19.9
Carlos Baerga 5895 134 59 0.331 100 -35.2 19.1
Austin Kearns 3973 117 31 0.338 103 47.2 18.7
Chris Sabo 3714 116 120 0.343 111 -7 18.4
Ruben Sierra 8782 306 142 0.331 102 -59.5 18
Derek Bell 5068 134 170 0.335 103 -16 14.6
Ben Grieve 3743 118 24 0.356 114 -72.1 7.5

Here’s that same set of players, only with their strengths broken down by category rather than results.

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Name BB% K% ISO BABIP
Andruw Jones 10.3% 20.0% 0.232 0.275
Edgardo Alfonzo 9.8% 10.1% 0.140 0.296
George Bell 5.0% 11.7% 0.191 0.278
Alvin Davis 13.7% 11.1% 0.170 0.288
Richard Hidalgo 9.1% 18.8% 0.221 0.292
Chone Figgins 10.0% 15.1% 0.087 0.329
Alex Rios 6.3% 16.1% 0.159 0.306
Marcus Giles 9.5% 15.7% 0.152 0.313
Carlos Baerga 4.9% 9.8% 0.131 0.302
Austin Kearns 11.3% 21.3% 0.163 0.304
Chris Sabo 7.4% 12.4% 0.178 0.279
Ruben Sierra 6.9% 14.1% 0.182 0.279
Derek Bell 7.4% 18.8% 0.145 0.319
Ben Grieve 12.4% 20.9% 0.173 0.320

This is only 14 guys, but let’s see if there are any obvious similarities among the group of guys who stood out to the FG crew.

In terms of plate discipline, it’s a pretty big mixed bag. This group runs the gamut from aggressive hackers (Sierra, Rios, both Bells) to work-the-count artists (Davis, Grieve, Kearns), while also including guys who made a ton of contact (Baerga, Alfonzo) and guys who swung and missed a lot (Jones, Hidalgo). There doesn’t seem to be any discernable similarities among these guys in terms of their approach at the plate.

How about power? Besides Jones and Hidalgo, there aren’t a lot of sluggers on this list. If we expanded the age range we were willing to look at and pushed it into the early 30s, we’d pick up the likes of Mo Vaughn, but then we’d be dealing with the issue of the aging curve for heavy players. Since we’re trying to highlight guys whose collapses are a bit more mysterious, I’m not sure oversized sluggers fit into the type of player we’re looking for, so they’re probably a little underrepresented on the list. Still, even without a lot of extreme power hitters, the list is mostly comprised of guys who could drive the ball. The only guy on the list who really had no power whatsoever is Chone Figgins.

With BABIP, we’re not looking at a core skill as much as we are trying to see if this group of players had disproportionately depended on getting hits to fall in to pump up their early career value. Again, Figgins looks to be the outlier here, as the group is mostly comprised of guys whose career BABIPs were pretty close to league average. This doesn’t seem to be a case of guys just getting lucky early in their careers and seeing a regression-based decline later.

Position? The sample is tiny, but perhaps its somewhat interesting that there are several stocky second baseman on the list. Alfonzo, Baerga, and Giles were all offensive middle infielders who weren’t fantastic athletes and produced their value by being good hitters relative to a bunch of peers who were selected for their glovework. Historically, we’ve seen that second baseman don’t age particularly well, so perhaps there’s something to this kind of body type that lends itself to an early peak? There’s not enough here to draw any kind of conclusion, but at least we finally found a similarity between a few of the players on the list.

Beyond that, there’s a bunch of outfielders, but they aren’t all that similar. Jones, Rios, and Hidalgo were athletic center fielders, while Sierra, Kearns, Grieve, and the Bells were corner outfielders who weren’t exactly known for their defense. A few of them had old-player skills, but most of them did not, and there’s a lot of different body types among the outfielders on the list.

The guys who don’t really have any reasonable comparables among the 14 are Figgins, Alvin Davis, and Chris Sabo. Figgins was a patient slap hitter whose ability to find holes and draw walks dried up. Davis was a first baseman with great control of the strike zone whose power dried up after age 29. Sabo was a pretty-good-at-everything guy who saw his BABIP tumble and his K% jump almost simultaneously, though he never became totally useless.

Overall, besides the offensive second baseman thing (which was somewhat already known through aging curve studies), I don’t see many similar players on this list. This isn’t any kind of definitive research, and perhaps with a larger variety of examples we’ll be able to identify similar traits in other subsets of players, but overall, I don’t see a lot of evidence that guys with one particular skillset offer production that is at risk to just dry up overnight more so than any other. There’s an inherent variability in all types of players, and whether it’s speedster or slugger, there’s a chance that a previously productive player could just lose his usefulness without any real warning.





Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.

109 Comments
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vivalajeter
14 years ago

I suspect Roberto Alomar was too old to be included. He fell off a cliff the second he landed in NY.

Rudegar
14 years ago
Reply to  Dave Cameron

Dale Murphy, and speaking of Braves this makes Dan Uggla’s extension pretty scary (not that pretty much everyone didn’t already acknowledge the strong chance he’s worth far less than he’ll be paid the last year or three of that deal).

JimNYC
14 years ago
Reply to  vivalajeter

Some other ones that stick out to my mind:

Hal Trosky, Cal Ripken Jr., Herman Long, Charlie Keller, Ripper Collins, Chuck Klein, Riggs Stephenson, Pete Reiser, Sherry Magee, Bob Fothergill, George Pinkney.

Reiser at least is sorta-kinda excused by the war and injuries, although every Brooklyn Dodger fan has always sworn he was as good as DiMaggio.

kick me in the GO NATS
14 years ago
Reply to  JimNYC

I do not think Cal Ripken Jr lost his skills in his 20s.

tdotsports1
14 years ago
Reply to  JimNYC

How about Kenny F’n Powers? His fastball decline was legendary!

Will
14 years ago
Reply to  JimNYC

Yeah, Ripken doesn’t fit the mold at all. He was a consistent 5-8 WAR player from ages 22-31, then a lock for 4-5 WAR in his age 32-36 seasons, and 2 WAR from 37-40. If anything, he should be a model for a gradual age decline, as it was remarkably stable (with the exception of his remarkable 1991 MVP season).

Chones Figgins MVP
14 years ago

I’ll be back Dave!

Bill James has predicted that I will double my HR total in 2012.

Figlet for MVP.

vivalajeter
14 years ago

He also predicted that Johan Santana will post the best K/9 and FIP of his Mets career next year. Somehow I doubt Uncle Bill will be accurate with that projection.

Bookbook
14 years ago

Are there a disproportionate number of folks who recently changed homefield and/or teams (Crawford, Dunn, Werth, Figgins, etc)?

Maybe Free Agents should think harder about the unquantifiable risk of messing with what’s working for them?

JayT
14 years ago
Reply to  Bookbook

If this is true, maybe more then anything it just goes to show why the player’s team didn’t make a bigger effort to resign their player.

Bi-ggi-o! Bi-ggi-o!
14 years ago
Reply to  Bookbook

Just to piggy-back on this idea, would it be worth it to look at drastic swings in home team market size between free agent signings? We’ve all heard the saying “it takes a certain type of player to play in blank (usually New York or Chicago or something).” Off the top of my head, I can only think of Crawford falling into this category here. I think this entire topic was interesting to bring up.

Luke
14 years ago
Reply to  Bookbook

Yeah, the only thing I see in common for some of the more recent guys on the list is a team change. The verdict is still out, however, on whether they (Werth, Figgins, Dunn, Crawford) will ever snap out of their declines.

TK
14 years ago

Is it more surprising that Ruben Sierra played below replacement level after age 26 or that he managed to stick around for another FOURTEEN big league seasons?

Jason
14 years ago

I recommend looking at data from all available players. Identify your players who “fell off a cliff” at a young age quantitatively. You should compare them to each other and to the players that managed to avoid falling of the cliff (these will serve as controls).

By starting with an extremely biased sampling strategy and such a small sample of players you are setting your study up to not find much of interest. ….or worse, to find a spurious result.

Jeff Cirillo
14 years ago

I would like to be included.

Hank Blalock
14 years ago
Reply to  Jeff Cirillo

What about me?

Jack Nugent
14 years ago
Reply to  Hank Blalock

Adam Dunn was 31 this year. Milton Bradley was 31 his one year with the Cubs, although he was still a few ticks above average offensively that year (105 RC+). He did put up 158, 155, and 119 RC+ the 3 years prior, but his offensive track record might not have been as consistent as some of the players mentioned in this post.

Jeff Cirillo
14 years ago
Reply to  Hank Blalock

Hank, you and some other guys on that list are bushers compared to me. I had a six year stretch where my slash line looked like 315/385/455 and unlike you I had a good glove at 3rd. Let’s get real if we are going to do a study!

Phantom Stranger
14 years ago

My guess is that intrinsic components of those players’ hitting talents fundamentally changed somewhere along the line and they couldn’t adjust to keep their production up. I bet scouts that followed these players would be able to tell what happened. Once your skills (bat speed, contact ability, etc.) diminish just enough to introduce holes that pitchers can exploit, you can quickly find yourself out of a job.

Greg H
14 years ago

You are basically saying that some players are not adaptive. For every George Brett, there are many Morgan Ensbergs. It still doesn’t begin to answer why. Why are some hitters able to make adjustments when their bat speed slows and pitchers change the way they get them out?

Jon L.
14 years ago

You’ve also got injuries to contend with. Age and injury can limit a player’s mobility and adaptability, and there may be nothing in his swing one year that indicates the physical limitation that will afflict him the next. I’m not saying we shouldn’t seek; I’m just saying we may not find.

VB
14 years ago

Does Aaron hill fit into the Stocky Second Basemen/Fell off a cliff mold?

And how much could this be due to conditioning? I know its very player specific, but with such a small sample size, I would say that some of these players might have stopped “trying” as hard as they once did, and lost it.

grady
14 years ago
Reply to  VB

Hill is probably a combination of early decline and “never really as good as advertised”.

Nick
14 years ago
Reply to  grady

Hill lost a season to concussion (thank you David Eckstien.)

j6takish
14 years ago

How do you explain players who can play at a high level for seemingly forever, i.e Kenny Loggins? Especially about old guys with “old player” skills, Jim Thome is 41 and is still hitting moonshots and walking at an above average rate

vivalajeter
14 years ago
Reply to  j6takish

Not sure if you wrote ‘Loggins’ instead of ‘Lofton’ on purpose, but that made me laugh.

Jon L.
14 years ago
Reply to  vivalajeter

He’s been watching too much Yacht Rock.

jkafka
14 years ago
Reply to  j6takish

You mean Kenny Lofton?

j6takish
14 years ago
Reply to  jkafka

I did not do it on purpose haha. Whoops

Greg H
14 years ago
Reply to  j6takish

Well, Jim Thome is a special hitter, a one-of-a-kind. That’s like pondering why more pitchers don’t throw like Pedro Martinez.

Ian R.
14 years ago
Reply to  Greg H

This is true, but it’s interesting that most players with Thome’s skill set just don’t last that long. Even some of the really good ones. Adam Dunn has been a very similar hitter to Thome, for instance, and he just fell off a cliff. Same thing happened to Richie Sexson a few years ago.

Choo
14 years ago
Reply to  Greg H

Jim Thome is pretty unique. Due to his colossal size, it’s easy to forget that he broke in as a 3B and played the position exclusively during his first six seasons in the major leagues. Thome was no Adrian Beltre with the glove, but like Edgar Martinez he was better than most people give him credit for – arguably better than Pedro Guerrero, Bobby Bonilla, Howard Johnson, Dean Palmer, Mike Blowers, Sean Berry, and a number of other guys who played 3B regularly around that time.

Picture Adam Dunn or Mo Vaughn playing 3B for six years.

LexDiamonds
14 years ago
Reply to  j6takish

I’m almost certain you mean Kenny Lofton, as Loggins’ live rendition of “Danger Zone” really fell off a cliff once he found out the movie wasn’t real.

matt w
14 years ago
Reply to  LexDiamonds

Watch what you say.

Kenny Loggins can…

READ MINDS

matt w
14 years ago
Reply to  LexDiamonds

(Could Fangraphs’s formatting for links embedded in comments be any more annoying? There’s one on “READ MINDS.”)

Boomer
14 years ago
Reply to  j6takish

Messina was carrying part of the burden early on, lessening the wear and tear. Plus, he knows how to navigate the Danger Zone.

schlomsd
14 years ago

Since 6 of the players (Jones, Alfonzo, Bell, Hidalgo, Baerga, and Sierra) are foreign, I’m wondering if their listed age is wrong. If you add a couple of years to their age their collapses aren’t as surprising.

Greg H
14 years ago
Reply to  schlomsd

Congratulations on being the first to post a racist/xenophobic comment.

Brandon Warne
14 years ago
Reply to  Greg H

Is this where we’re at as a society? Someone can’t make a random observation without it being labeled as such?

Some world we’re living in, you guys.

schlomsd
14 years ago
Reply to  Greg H

Congratulations on being the first to post a stupid comment.

vivalajeter
14 years ago
Reply to  Greg H

Greg, players from Latin America are more likely to have false birth certificates. Off the top of my head, I can’t recall a single story about an American player that was found to be older than his birth certificate. That’s not racism, it’s just a fact.

IvanGrushenko
14 years ago
Reply to  schlomsd

Last 3+ WAR year by listed age:

Jones – 30 (Does Curacao not have reliable birth certificates?)
Hidalgo – 28 (Venezuela)
Alfonzo – 30 (Venezuela)
Bell – 29 (Dominican Republic)
Baerga – 23 (Puerto Rico — I don’t see why this should be unreliable)
Sierra – 26 (Puerto Rico)

You may have something with Hidalgo, Alfonzo and Bell but Puerto Rico should have reliable ages and I’d expect Curacao to as well.

schlomsd
14 years ago
Reply to  IvanGrushenko

I always thought that Baerga and Sierra were Dominican.

schlomsd
14 years ago
Reply to  IvanGrushenko

If you look at Andruw Jones’ career it wouldn’t be a shock if his age was off by a couple of years – at least that makes his collapse at age 30 more reasonable.

Mike
14 years ago
Reply to  IvanGrushenko

What Venezuelan players have been discovered to be older than claimed? I can think of a number of Dominican players, but off the top of my head no Venezuelans…

Bill but not Ted
14 years ago
Reply to  schlomsd

Not saying anyone is a racist, but I would suggest the fact that there are more “foreign”players is more likely an unintentional bias in selecting the list then a correlation between foreign players and early decliners.

Greg H
14 years ago

I didn’t call anyone a racist. I stated that a person made a racist or xenophobic comment. There’s a vast difference between someone who makes a statement that assigns characteristics to a person solely because of the class he belongs to, and someone who is going to put on a hood and burn crosses. I was criticizing the person’s reasoning, not his character.

I admit that my comment was snarky and could have been stated with more elan. For that, I apologize.

But the comment included no evidence to support that the six foreign players mentioned actually lied about their age. The “evidence” was simply prejudice: Some foreign born players have been caught lying about their age; therefore, six random people born outside of the U.S. are likely to have lied about their age. If that isn’t a racist or xenophobic comment, then I don’t know what is. It’s making a distinction based solely on ethnicity or alienage. It certainly isn’t an example of analytical thinking or deductive reasoning based on facts.

indyralph
14 years ago

The original comment also never stated anywhere that anyone “lied” about anything. You’ve inferred that word where it was not used and then criticized them for it.

Greg H
14 years ago

Indyralph,

Do you mean that one who claims to be younger than his actual age in order to receive a benefit is not lying? What would you call it? An honest mistake?

Drew
14 years ago

That’s who I would have came up with off the top of my head, too. Do some research.

Ben_Eis
14 years ago

Dave,

How about adding Shae Hillenbrand to your sample size?

His PA’s (3816) fit into the group and his wRC+ (95) & wOBA (.326) place him in the same category as Chone Figgins. He would have the lowest HR total (108) & WAR (5.1) among the group, but I believe he fits because he didn’t leave MLB because of injury in ’08.

Hope this can help with your hypothesis!

Brandon Warne
14 years ago
Reply to  Ben_Eis

Didn’t Hillenbrand have a really, really poor attitude?

Jason Bay
14 years ago

The bizarro Carl Crawford

fly eli
14 years ago

david wright? too soon?

Will
14 years ago
Reply to  fly eli

Yes, too soon. Much of his decline is defense-related. 2007-08 his UZR averaged +5.7. Between 2009-10, his UZR averaged -10.5. That alone explains almost 2 WAR of difference each season Take defense out, and his stats aren’t too far out of line with the rest of his career.

His 2011 season was injury plagued and shouldn’t be indicative of his future level of play.

Holy Ghost
14 years ago

It might be as simple as hitters not being able to make adjustments as the league and pitchers adjust to their strengths/weaknesses.

Scouting at the major league level is very thorough. After a year or so in the big leagues, a hitter’s strengths and weaknesses are usually well documented by opposing teams. For most hitters, longevity at the major league level requires adjusting hitting-styles or batting-stances after the first few years.

For some hitters, an adjustment in hitting-style or battin-stance might significantly improve their offensive production(ie Curtis Granderson).

JayT
14 years ago
Reply to  Holy Ghost

That wouldn’t explain a guy like Crawford though. You can’t tell me that moving from Tampa to Boston somehow made him more scouted.

mister_rob
14 years ago

some off the top of my head

Shannon Stewart (close comparable to crawford skill wise)
Kal Daniels (really good for 5 years and then completely useless
Jose Cruz Jr
Glenn Davis (great in his 20’s, horrible in his 30’s)

Brandon Warne
14 years ago
Reply to  mister_rob

Stewart’s wheels went out on him, I think.

Jon L.
14 years ago
Reply to  mister_rob

I thought Kal Daniels had knee problems. Cruz Jr. always had big holes in that swing.

Luke
14 years ago

What ever happened to Rusty Greer?

JayT
14 years ago
Reply to  Luke

His back gave out on him.

fly eli
14 years ago

Wasn’t Andruw Jones legendary for poor offseason training? Always coming to camp w/ extra weight, etc.? Like Dunn’s reputation.

Bill but not Ted
14 years ago
Reply to  fly eli

FG is certainly not the right venue, but there could possibly be common genetic predispositons that affect their personalities; therefore, work ethic and drive.

gnomez
14 years ago

Has anyone else taken a look at the Bizarro Hidalgo’s career?
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs.aspx?playerid=561&position=OF&page=8&type=full

Then from descending WAR,
7.5; 6.3; 3.1; 2.1; 1.6; 1.5; 0.8; 0.4; 0.3

One of MLB’s great mysteries…

Luke
14 years ago

Scott Brosius?

Luke
14 years ago

Did Carl Everett get too old to qualify?

Klatz
14 years ago

Would you rule out psychological issue, ie Rick Ankiel, Hong-Chih Kuo?

Other names: AJ Burnett, and perhaps Ichiro Suzuki if his 2012 season is like 2011.

Bill but not Ted
14 years ago
Reply to  Klatz

I agree but psychological issues are a very grey area. I remember Mark Wholers was theorized to have an issue because he just seemingly developed an inability to throw strikes “strikeitis”. But I believe it was later determined to be physical.

Holy Smokes!
14 years ago

Andruw Jones has 71.7 career WAR?!

I know a huge portion of that is from fielding, but still!… !!!

Adam
14 years ago
Reply to  Holy Smokes!

That’s the first thing I thought. Then I wondered if he would be the most significant crater case who is HOF worthy per WAR.

test
14 years ago
Reply to  Adam

Jones cratered, and has since recovered to be a reasonable player again. His bat is basically the same as it ever was (by some measures better, but his platoon advantages are stronger due to his role), and his glove is still good for a corner OF spot.

If Jones hadn’t cratered so badly and inexplicably, he’d be a strong pickup as a starter. The last two years he has 3 WAR in about a full season worth of playing time. The Yankees and Rangers were lucky to have him as a part-timer.

test
14 years ago
Reply to  Adam

And White Sox…he’s been getting around…

Hurtlocker
14 years ago

Why do some people have gray hair or need reading glassess while still in their 20’s?? Everyone ages differently, I would suspect if you had medical data, like vision, reflexes or muscle mass measurements it may be much more clear why these guys peaked early. Sometimes small injuries lead to changes in gait that affect other large muscle groups. Not exactly a blown out knee but it can affect timeing and baseball is all about timeing.

delv
14 years ago

To add:
1) Brad Hawpe at 31
2) Mark Teixeira has lost about 40 wOBA points and is just now 31.
3) Richie Sexson at 31/32
4) Chuck Knoblauch at 31, though I think we know what caused this one

Phils_Goodman
14 years ago
Reply to  delv

Richie Sexson is a good one.

NBarnes
14 years ago
Reply to  Phils_Goodman

Richie Sexson dislocated his shoulder. He managed to come back and have a good year or two afterwards, but I don’t know that he’s a ‘clean’ case for this sort of thing.

Though his drop off the cliff was pretty dramatic, I’ll give you that, and he did get back to very good after the injury but before the cliff dive.

Brandon Warne
14 years ago
Reply to  delv

I noted Hawpe in our staff discussion. Good picks here.

Jeff
14 years ago

You said “stocky second basemen” and I immediately thought of Dan Uggla. Would his drop off last year qualify him for this list?

Phils_Goodman
14 years ago
Reply to  Jeff

I would characterize that as more of a first half disaster. We’ll see this year.

vivalajeter
14 years ago
Reply to  Jeff

I think it’s too early to tell with Dan Uggla, because it was just a few months of horrible play. My understanding is that the list is more about people that fell off a cliff and never recovered. If Uggla sucks for the next couple years, I think he’d be a good candidate.

YazInLeft8
14 years ago

Did the idea for this article stem from yesterday’s argument with a commenter about how speed doesn’t affect a player’s deterioration? (or rather, that speedsters don’t fall apart any faster than, say, a home run hitter).

Justin C
14 years ago

How many on this list were tied to PEDs?

Barkey Walker
14 years ago

Do predictions of falling off a cliff count? (Mauer? A Rod?)

Trevor
14 years ago

Adam Lind? Huge drop at age 26

Pat W
14 years ago

Instead of looking at their stats per se, how about something sociological? Almost all of these guys hit the league at a relatively young age (18-24); maybe the stress of playing so many games per year without having reached full physical maturity is part of the answer.

Ian R.
14 years ago
Reply to  Pat W

Of course, that could also just be because so many of these guys peaked sooner than most. Early peak, early drop off (sometimes).

Jon L.
14 years ago
Reply to  Pat W

Or psychological burn-out, like Bjorn Borg.

gus
14 years ago

Bret Boone and Milton Bradley seem appropriate, and I guess you can’t look at Ichiro because he’s on the backside of 30, but Ichiro almost seems valid because he’s been so good through his 30s.

jpg
14 years ago

Don’t have the numbers in front of me but Preston Wilson and Howard Johnson come to mind

jpg
14 years ago

There are a few guys on this list that fell off the cliff for reasons reasons that aren’t at all mysterious to me.

Alfonso had back issues and basically lost all of his power. He was also, as others above alluded to, a guy that many felt was a few years older than what his birth certificate stated.

Baerga and Jones were guys who were notorious for having a less than stellar work ethic. Baerga basically ate and partied his way to replacement level. Same with Hidalgo who went from being an athletic CF to a fat lumbering corner OF.

Giles was a guy that was linked to PEDs. He was a bit prospect drafted in like the 50th round or so, he was listed at 5’8 but was probably more like 5’5 and out of nowhere blast 37 jacks in his first full year of Class-A ball.

My memory might be off, but does Grieve even belong on this list? Again, as Roger Clemens famously said, maybe I’m misremembering, but didn’t Grieve have a huge rookie year and then was basically a bust from that point forward? Am I confusing him with someone else?

philosofool
14 years ago

This is a small point, but I wish you wouldn’t use ISO in stuff like this. It’s ball in play stuff and varies a lot once you take out the home runs. This is a little nit picky, but I think it matters.

Indeed, now that I think about it, how many of these guys were gap power guys who suddenly became slap hitters?

CJ
14 years ago

I recall some discussion in the past that third baseman seem more prone to early declines. Morgan Ensberg, Fernando Tatis, Garrett Atkins, Jorge Cantu, Kelly Gruber, and Joe Crede are examples of slugging third baseman who hit a lot of HRs for a few years and then went into a precipitous decline around age 29-30. One can wonder if certain types of players are forced into the third base mold (perhaps because they aren’t good enough hitters to play first base, but not fast enough to play the middle infield) and are more prone to rapid decline. This also leads me to question whether David Wright might fall in the same group.

Bill James wrote an article about three years ago about Garrett Atkins which was based on the premise that a major deterioration in a player’s BB/K ratio usually leads to the falling off a cliff outcome. He showed that the change in BB/K ratio foretells a rapid decline, even if the player’s production isn’t immediately affected by the change. His article was remarkably predictive of Atkins’ future career path.

Dr. Chaleeko
14 years ago

Here’s some guys who came to mind for me. I’m not sure which of them were affected by injuries, but they all showed a precipitous decline in OPS+ before age 30:
L. Moseby
W. upshaw
J. Burroughs
J. Leonard
K. Maas
M. Pagliarulo
J. Rudi
L. Boudreau
B. higginson
T. Kubek
P. Blair
B. north
Greg Walker
B. Melton
D. McAuliffe
R. Rolfe
B. Horner
S. lezcano
Floyd Robinson
G. Jeffries
F. Lindstrom
G. Templeton

Bookbook
14 years ago

I’ve heard arguments that a 3b is likely to rely more on fast twitch muscles than other fielders (reasons why some good defensive SS-like A-Rod- turn out to be poor defensive 3bs) Maybe those types of muscle reactions don’t age as well?

Barkey Walker
14 years ago
Reply to  Bookbook

baseball relies on fast twitch muscles. For sprinters even the 200 m is almost all fast twitch–that is a run from the plate to the fence and back again.

Andy
14 years ago

Nate McLouth comes to mind as well.

DL80
14 years ago

Travis Hafner? Quite a few Indians or former Indians fell apart suddenly: Hafner, Baerga, Sexson, Kearns. Probably just a coincidence, I’m thinking.

Mr Punch
14 years ago

I like Pat W’s suggestion about age – several of these guys, including Sierra and Grieve, were outstandingly good very young. Seems to me that physical changes apart from speed could make a difference; Mike Greenwell lost much of his power early due to a hand injury, for instance, and there’s a vision thing called accommodation, the ability to (among other things) follow objects moving toward you, which usually goes significantly at about 40 but can vary. It’s important te bear in mind that we’re talking about a few years of difference – a large proportion of the best RHH, in particular, have been in sharp decline by 35.

David F
14 years ago

George Bell was my favorite player when I was growing up, and I distinctly remember him playing through a torn ACL. (If anyone has any footage, they’d see him playing with a huge brace and obviously favoring the knee.) He refused to have surgery for whatever reason, and that was the end of his career. I bring this up because if you aren’t including players whose demise was caused by injury, then you should take him out of the equation.

Unclearnie
14 years ago

I thought that Figgin’s drop off was caused by Seattle asking him to do something he had not done before. He was the leadoff hitter for Anaheim but he was moved to 2nd in the order (behind Ichiro) in Seattle. Different approach/requirements to hitting in that spot. Additionally, he was playing 3rd for the Angels but moved to 2nd by the Mariners (although he had played a lot of 2nd, Short and Left previously).

Risk Management
14 years ago

How about Alfonso Soriano?

David S
14 years ago

Many of these players had a big drop off after changing teams!!!!

!!!!!!!
14 years ago
Reply to  David S

!!!!!!!!!!

Husker
14 years ago

This article has an interesting idea, but I suspect (obviously can’t prove) that everyone’s “reason” for falling off at a relatively young age is different–some undoubtedly just chance.

Eric R
14 years ago

I ran a query looking at the players with the biggest disparity between their WAR rates through age 28 vs 29-33. I made a cut-off of atleast 100 replacement runs through age 28 and atleast 20 29-33. Only included players who debuted 1969 onward… Here are the ‘leaders’

Dave Parker -4.6 fWAR per 20 replacement runs
Eric Chavez -4.2
Mark Kotsay -3.4
Nomar Garciaparra -3.3
Edgardo Alfonzo -3.3
Chuck Knoblauch -3.2
Richard Hidalgo -3.1
Willie Wilson -2.9
Andruw Jones -2.9
Cesar Cedeno -2.8
Alvin Davis -2.7
Darrell Evans -2.6
Darryl Strawberry -2.6
Matt Williams -2.6
Don Mattingly -2.5
Marquis Grissom -2.3
Rondell White -2.3
Dave Cash -2.3
Jason Thompson -2.2
Andre Dawson -2.1
Fred Lynn -2.1
Garry Maddox -2.0
Tony Fernandez -2.0

Juancho
14 years ago
Reply to  Eric R

Three of those guys probably declined partly to drug use: Parker, Wilson, and Strawberry.

Antonio Bananas
14 years ago

I think Andruw Jones was a combination of playing center for a long time and taking a beating along with not conditioning himself well. After he had that monster year where he hit like 50 HR, he tried to become a slugger. Dropped off a cliff, and has since come back to be very serviceable.

I think Jones is a hall of famer if he plays well the rest of his career. He has a lot of WAR (saber) and a lot of hardware (10 gold gloves?) and could get to 500 career HR. So both saber and traditional values are borderline HOF.

What’s the decline rule? How sharp does it half to be? Players generally get worse after their age 27 season anyways, so why is it a surprise they play worse at 30 than at 26?

When looking at a pitcher’s sharp decline, I think we should use pitches thrown instead of age. Kazmir’s arm is about 5 years older than he is.