Epidemiologist Zachary Binney on What’s Gone Wrong with MLB’s COVID Response—and Whether it Can Be Fixed
With every passing day and new positive COVID-19 test, the 2020 MLB season looks shakier and shakier. Already, the league has seen team-wide outbreaks among the Marlins and the Cardinals, forcing both squads to quarantine for days and creating huge holes in the already compressed schedule. Those absences have had a domino effect on the rest of baseball, resulting in other teams that are otherwise COVID-free being forced to put their seasons on hold or rejigger their schedules on the fly. Running through it all is a seeming reluctance on the part of MLB to shut things down or exercise control even as the problem escalates, as well as reports that players aren’t sticking closely enough to the health and safety protocols governing the sport’s return.
The situations in Miami and St. Louis have wreaked havoc on major league baseball, and it’s an open question as to whether the season can survive another team going down — or, at this point, whether it’s safe to play baseball in the middle of a pandemic. So what could Rob Manfred and the league have done differently, and what can they be doing now to try to solve the problem? On Monday, I reached out to Dr. Zachary Binney, an epidemiologist at Oxford College of Emory University, to get his thoughts on what’s gone wrong in MLB, and if it’s possible — or even wise — for baseball to continue in 2020.
This interview has been condensed and edited for clarity and length.
Jon Tayler: So what’s the situation as it currently exists?
Zachary Binney: We’ve seen two massive outbreaks on two different teams, the Marlins and the Cardinals, that are not related. The question that MLB is facing right now is whether this is going to keep happening, or is there something you can do to change it?
I got asked this morning, what would you be advising Rob Manfred right now? My answer is that I’d tell him to take a deep breath, look in the mirror, and ask and answer honestly, are things going to change? Is there something we can do to avoid the Marlins and the Cardinals happening over and over and over again? And I think that really depends on the exact circumstances around these outbreaks. One is a fluke, two is a pattern, right? You can’t just say this is only the Marlins, everybody else is being good. That excuse is out the window.
So how did this outbreak happen? Did it happen from what epidemiologists call a point-source exposure, meaning there was some risky behavior from a large number of players or staff, like they went out to a bar or a nightclub and everybody got exposed there, and then there was spread in the clubhouse? Or was there one case introduced that then spread around the clubhouse? If that’s the case, was that because MLB’s protocols were insufficient, or because they weren’t being followed? Were guys not wearing masks? Were they spending too much time indoors in large groups and not distancing?
What I think you see MLB trying to say is, the players were not adhering to our protocols. And that’s a very convenient story. This is exactly what you’d expect MLB to say to save its season. If it’s risky player behavior, that’s something you can fix. If it’s the protocols themselves, that’s harder.
Tayler: Do you think the protocols are sufficient to keep people safe?
Binney: I don’t know, because I don’t know how well they were being adhered to or not. I still don’t feel like we have a strong handle on that from a reliable source, and that ties in directly to my answer. How effective would they be under perfect adherence? I don’t know how much perfect adherence we had. If we did, my answer would be they don’t work. If people were just ignoring the protocols entirely, then my answer would be quite possibly. But we just don’t know.
Tayler: When Juan Soto tested positive, one of the things I noticed was that MLB was using the CDC guidance for close contact as within six feet for 15 or more minutes, which struck me as a loophole in MLB’s favor — that close contact was so strictly defined.
Binney: I have some very serious questions about MLB’s contact tracing procedures. Not just their definitions, but the fact that they conducted contact tracing on the four Marlins who tested positive, and that somehow did not lead them to suspend the entire organization. You’re telling me you didn’t identify a whole heck of a lot more people who would have to sit out after having four positives? I don’t even know if they’re accurately doing the six-foot/15-minute measurement. The NFL is using proximity monitors to help automate that, which I think is actually very interesting, and I applaud them for their innovation on that front. I don’t know what MLB is using. My guess would be asking.
MLB has infection control prevention coordinators, who were supposed to be in charge, according to the protocol, of making sure the protocol was adhered to. Now they’re saying they need compliance officers, which I guess is someone who will be in the traveling party. Whose duties are you adding that on top of? So I’m dubious about how successful that’s going to be. He’s the guy who has to be the buzzkill. That’s a really hard job. What you really need more broadly is a cultural alliance where everybody feels like they’re in it together, in it for each other against the virus. That’s going to be your best bet.
Tayler: Based on how the country at large is working, where some people are taking the virus seriously and some people aren’t, even with the best protocols, how likely was it going to be to work if you didn’t get 100% buy-in from all the involved people?
Binney: Well, no single intervention works 100%. You want to layer interventions on top of one another that are all partially successful in the hopes that you get something that approaches 100%. The more adherence, the better, but something doesn’t have to be 100% to be successful.
The first thing you want to have is few cases in your community. That’s the first line of defense, because even if you’re engaging in risky behavior, the risk that you become sick is lower. Now you want to have everybody trying to avoid risky situations like bars and nightclubs and house parties. Most people — but not all — are going to adhere to that. And then you want to be wearing masks, and you want to enforce that and have people re-enforcing that regularly, especially when you’re indoors. Hopefully you can have near 100% with that. You want to be distancing in the clubhouse and dugout. Hopefully adherence is going to be decent for that.
So you layer all of these things on top of one another, and even if there’s somebody who doesn’t do any of those things, then you’re hoping that the frequent testing, if the turnaround is fast enough, will catch them when they get sick before they can do any damage to anybody else. But I’m starting to wonder if testing every other day with a 48-hour turnaround is enough, especially if people are spending a lot of time in clubhouses and maybe not wearing masks as much as they should on some teams.
By the way, I think adherence is going to be not distributed evenly between the teams, because I think there’s also a cultural element. Adherence is non-linear. It’s a lot easier to find a community with 50% mask usage or 95% mask usage than it is 75%. If there’s this pervading idea that we’re all in this together and we’re gonna be careful, that’s going to drag things higher to 100% versus if you’re lax about it, which could drive adherence down.
Tayler: Leaving aside how much of this is Marlins players going out to a bar or Cardinals players going to a casino [John Mozeliak has said the team’s contact tracing suggests the outbreak originated in St. Louis], was there any real hope from the outset that teams based in states where cases were either on the rise or where mask usage is not common would be able to get through this regardless of the protocols?
Binney: I was always afraid that you would see MLB’s protocols fail for teams in areas with more virus. I thought there was a higher risk of this happening to the Marlins or the Astros or the Rangers or the Diamondbacks than the Yankees or the Mets or the Red Sox or the Phillies. I think it’s a numbers game. But there’s also an element of luck and randomness here. Somebody has to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, or the test maybe is done on the wrong day.
In terms of ways that MLB could maybe improve things, I would say if you can do more frequent testing or get the results back faster, that would help because it would cut down the amount of time that people bring the infection in from the community, and then to try to reinforce the importance of limiting indoor time in the clubhouse and of distancing when you’re in the dugout and of wearing masks all the time when you’re not on the field.
Tayler: I’m curious, if you’ve been watching, if you’ve seen a difference or any additional seriousness on the part of teams and players and the league with doing all of that.
Binney: I haven’t been watching super-closely, but it’s a really tempting narrative that we can just fix this with better behavior. And it may be true. But we need to be aware that that’s something that MLB and many MLB fans are going to want to be the case. We need more details on the investigation being done by MLB as to how the disease got in and spread, which would give us more or less confidence in how much that will work. Any steps you can take to be more careful are excellent, and I encourage them.
One thing I will say is that there’s a lot of focus on high fives, and I get it, but that’s not something I’m that worried about, because that’s very quick passing contact. If I had to guess, I think we have a lot more reason to be worried about guys sitting in the dugout talking with each other, and more to the point, what happens inside in the clubhouse and at team hotels, where guys are spending extended periods of time together. I think that’s where most of the spread is happening.
Tayler: I wanted to go back to contact tracing, that there was an element of how they had defined it and conducted it that you didn’t feel great about.
Binney: According to ESPN’s Jeff Passan, the Marlins tried to use contact tracing as an excuse for playing against the Phillies last Sunday. That really disgusted me, because you should’ve taken a step back and said, “We have four cases, we need to think that there’s an outbreak, we should not be playing this game until we have a stronger sense of whether there is one or isn’t.” Contact tracing works best if you have one case and you want to identify people you needed to immediately quarantine. That doesn’t seem to be what the use was with the Marlins. It was [perverse] to be like, if we didn’t identify anyone in contact tracing, they must be fine. And that is really not how you should be thinking about it. It’s a piece of a broader puzzle. That made me pretty angry.
The other thing I’m worried about is that we’re getting reports on the investigation into what happened in Miami and St. Louis, and the team doing the investigating is the same MLB department that’s handling things like sign stealing. That’s not an outbreak investigation. I hope they have some actual epidemiological expertise in the groups that are doing the investigating and that those people are being listened to and that they have a very strong hand in writing up the report and the recommendations for MLB.
Tayler: Based on what you know, do you think that MLB is listening to the people with expertise in this area and following the recommendations?
Binney: Rob Manfred is not speaking like an epidemiologist. Beyond that, I really don’t want to speculate, because I don’t know. I know they’ve engaged epidemiologists as experts, Dr. Ali Khan at the University of Nebraska most notably. But we really haven’t heard anything from him in months. So it’s hard to judge how many public health and epidemiology experts they may be listening to. But even what we would recommend in an ideal world is not necessarily what MLB is going to do. We may recommend a bubble, and they may say, that’s just impossible.
Tayler: I was going to ask about that. People have been bringing up what the NBA, WNBA, NHL, NWSL and MLS have done with bubbles, and for a lot of logistical reasons, that was never going to happen with MLB, and the players and owners themselves shot it down anyway. But is a bubble the only safe way to do sports in this country right now?
Binney: If you look at the landscape, you would conclude that bubble plans have a much better chance of working, and it’s maybe the only way to bring professional sports back in the U.S. safely. I can’t say that conclusively, but that’s what the data seems to be suggesting. The MLS bubble, for example, was very successful, but they did have outbreaks in Dallas and Nashville that started when teams were in their home markets and players and staff were living at home. That’s the other thing to remember. The virus can get in even if you’re doing everything right. The more under control the virus can be, the better chance you’re going to have of surviving that numbers game.
If we’re able to bring pro sports back in the U.S., it’s going to be more difficult, more expensive, and more dangerous than in other countries as a result of our weak response to the virus. When MLB was designing their plan, I bet you they were hoping things would look a heck of a lot better now than they do. And that’s understandable. But flexibility has to be part of any plan right now. If you’re creating a plan that’s contingent on us having decent control of the virus and we don’t, then maybe you have to revisit that plan and say that’s not going to work right now — we either need a tougher plan or we need to not come back. You can’t just plow ahead because it’s the plan you have.
Tayler: One of the things that came under early criticism is that the league didn’t have a number of positive tests or hard line in mind at which point they would stop play. Do you think this is something the league should have had in place to begin with?
Binney: Yes. It was a failure. I understand why leagues don’t want to draw red lines, and especially publicly. The problem is that then you have to make a decision when you’re panicked and under pressure, and that’s when you make bad choices, especially when the people who have to make that decision are the ones with a lot of money on the line, because then it’s just human nature to push things further than they probably should be.
If you don’t have an independent authority like a local or state public health department or outside board that’s unilaterally empowered to shut down the team or league, then you’re leaving yourself open to making mistakes like this, and that’s what MLB did. And who knows what red lines they drew behind the scenes, but from what we can see publicly, they seemed completely unprepared and flabbergasted that you had an outbreak like this when it was totally foreseeable, and there should have been a plan in place for what to do and how long to suspend a team. That should’ve been in place weeks ago. The fact that it apparently wasn’t is truly disturbing. They were suspending one game at a time. That really just told me that Rob Manfred was not taking this seriously.
To try to make MLB’s case for them, maybe they’d say, we really don’t want to overly punish a team, we want to keep them out the minimum amount of time that we can — a day here, two days there, waiting to see what develops. And I understand that, but then you also have situations like Mike Moustakas and Joey Votto on the Reds. Moustakas was out for like a week because he had symptoms but never tested positive, and Votto self-reported symptoms, tested negative and was back 24 hours later. So are you being cautious or are you being aggressive? And you don’t get a consistent message from MLB on that. That’s causing a lot of confusion and frustration and a worry that they’re just making it up as they go along.
Tayler: Derek Jeter was asked [on Monday] by reporters about the rumor that Marlins players were the ones who decided to play against the Phillies, and his response was that it was a decision made by the team and the league, which to me is almost worse than the players alone deciding to do it.
Binney: The Philadelphia Inquirer report was interesting, but I couldn’t imagine that they would have left the decision in the hands of players. They clearly weren’t prepared. They certainly didn’t act like [they were]. And it was really inexcusable to play that game. I wrote on June 30 that if you have three or four cases in a short span, you’d want to suspend a team. I figured that out. MLB had a lot more, smarter people working for them. Why didn’t they? To play on with that many cases is… I struggle to imagine what led to that decision.
Tayler: So if you could’ve started this process over from scratch for MLB, what, if anything, would you have done differently to try to prevent this from happening?
Binney: If this were the plan that I’d built, I would’ve recognized that it was built on the assumption that the country would look like it did in May or June, and that if things change dramatically, maybe we wouldn’t be able to do it.
If that weren’t an option, I would’ve worked with the players to try to negotiate some kind of bubble. Not in a single spot, and just generally speaking, bubbles are not ideal. It’s easy for me to sit here and be like “Create a bubble.” Well, I’m not the player going away from a family for months at a time. That’s not psychologically or emotionally pleasant. But it may be the only way you can do it safely. So maybe figure out something like smaller bubbles, home bubbles, where you rent out a couple of hotels in each market and that’s where the players and the staff stay, and they go between there, the training facility and the ballpark and don’t have contact with anyone in the community outside of that little network, and then when you travel to another city, you’re going bubble to bubble. And you have really strict regulations with actual punishments in place, negotiated with the union, for anyone who’s caught breaking protocol or leaving the bubble.
What could you do now to salvage it? Maybe pick up the frequency of testing and the turnaround time, but do we as a nation have the capacity for that right now? The answer is an emphatic no. What are you supposed to do now? Hope that this was players and staff engaging in risky behavior and that you can modify that, and that people can take a lesson and this will be a wakeup call.
Tayler: In your mind, no matter what protocols are in place, do you think it’s possible for MLB to play this season with the way things are in this country without outbreaks continuing to happen?
Binney: I don’t know. I really don’t know. I lean no, but I still don’t have a good enough understanding of what happened on the Marlins and the Cardinals. Without a lot more detail on that, it’s hard for me to judge how likely that is to happen again. If it was a behavioral issue, maybe that’s something that can be corrected. If it’s more an issue with the protocols themselves, then I foresee it continuing to happen.
From Jared Diamond of the Wall Street Journal, who apparently actually does reporting, as opposed to baseless speculation:
Derek Jeter debunks the (completely absurd) idea that the Marlins decided to play their July 26 game against the Phillies. All the relevant league officials — including the Covid-19 joint committee — knew about the Marlins’ positives. Those in power decided to proceed.
First, not everyone has a WSJ subscription, so thanks for the relevant quote from Jeter that backs up your point.
Second, the Marlins did decide to play July 26. However, yes, the league did have the final say, So your comment was half-truthful.
They link to and address this story. And this is, quite literally, an interview with an epidemiologist. What is your complaint even about?
Diamond a fine reporter, and Jeter certainly said what he reported. That being said – I’ll put a lot more stock in the findings of the MLB investigation then I will in Jeter’s statement. How in depth was the team investigation?
I disagree with Binney’s belief that the sign stealing investigators are a poor choice here. They aren’t doing contact tracing. All they are doing is investigating whether or not the team engaged in excessively risky behavior. The investigators in question seemed well qualified for this task.
Risky public health behavior, you mean as defined by epidemiologists? Seems like having one on staff would be a good idea.
I really struggle with how this will work come playoffs. You might have to bubble the playoff teams or something. You can probably struggle through an uneven season full of covid breakouts, if MLB for some reason really wants to, but once the weather starts cooling, the clock starts ticking. And if the ALCS or NLCS or whatever is all of the sudden privy to a team with a full blown covid breakout, what then? You can’t really rejigger the playoff schedule, and this will clearly still be around then.
Yeah, couldn’t agree more. The precise regular season schedule really doesn’t matter all that much, as long as teams play some number of games. Come the postseason, MLB won’t have the luxury of shifting the schedule around every few days. As it has been from the start, MLB is just inviting disaster with seemingly everything they do.
All teams won’t play the same number of regular season games, and that’s fine. There’s no way the Marlins will get to 60 games, and while they probably won’t be playoff factors, the Phillies and Cardinals might be, and they won’t get to 60 either. And while the situation is obviously very, very far from ideal, what do you think MLB has done to “invite disaster?”
Yes, a bubble would have reduced the potential exposure, but players vetoed that, and they were well within their rights to veto it. I would have voted no on a bubble if I were a player. Every single person who works in baseball, from the commissioners office down to the person who handles hotel arrangements on road trips is trying to make the best of a very bad situation that goes way beyond baseball. A team forfeiting a playoff series because of an outbreak or losing a playoff spot to a team with a better winning percentage that played five or six fewer games would be tough, but it’s not like these things happened because of ignorance or laziness.
If a team has an outbreak in the playoffs, they’ll have to forfeit the series. That would really suck, and it’s obviously unprecedented, but there’s no way around it. Zachary Binney’s last answer in the article is the key to the whole thing – if the two outbreaks we’ve seen were due to mistakes in adhering to the protocols, that can be corrected. If the protocols themselves are insufficient, then it will probably keep happening.
I think we’ll see playoffs, if they happen, in a something approximating a bubble. There are enough domed and warm weather stadiums to make this happen.
Let’s be real, I’m not even sure how they’re going to successfully handle it now. But when an outbreak wipes out half the lineup of a team just before a playoff series, there’s going to be a serious reckoning.
Running through it all is a seeming reluctance on the part of MLB to shut things down or exercise control even as the problem escalates, as well as reports that players aren’t sticking closely enough to the health and safety protocols governing the sport’s return.
You could replace “MLB” with “the Federal government and many States” and “players” with “citizens” and that sentence still works.
True.
“If we’re able to bring pro sports back in the U.S., it’s going to be more difficult, more expensive, and more dangerous than in other countries as a result of our weak response to the virus. ”
If half or a third of the citizens trust their gut or their Facebook feed more than their government and the scientists, there’s not much that can be done outside of communities closing themselves off to outsiders. Even when there’s a vaccine, some like Michael Porter will undoubtedly refuse to take it.
Indeed. Leadership matters, and we’re all suffering from a dearth of it
It is what it is guys. Other countries do not have to deal with this problem, because other countries do not have the same type of people we have in this country who simply won’t listen no matter what. So, to me, our sports will be like this for a while. If you saw the NFL’s announcement today they are taking it incredibly serious. They are fining people for stuff, and making people wear tracking devices/requiring masks. With that said, if you think the MLB is a shitshow, wait till you see what they try to pull off. Baseball is inherently low risk for on the field activities. NFL is literally the opposite.
No population is close to herd immunity. The case load in the northeast went way down because we shut things down. Almost everyone wears a mask and we had done a good job of social distancing. However, people have become complacent and cases are beginning to spike here in NJ.
Herd immunity is a looong way off.
If ever, but also, why choose the path that kills the MOST people possible? Can’t we agree that fewer deaths = good? Or is that really beyond common agreement 🙁
The GOP was literally arguing for old people to sacrifice themselves to save the economy, two months ago.
Not that that’d even work.
But that was their argument.
This is a horribly twisted rendition of “data” that has been repeated too many times by too many people, has caused unnecessary death and suffering, and requires almost no effort to point out everything that’s flawed about it…though really, why are you advocating “don’t listen to ‘THE SCIENCE’ on FAN’GRAPHS’?
Please do at least some cursory research before talking about things you are clearly not fully informed on. Nobody anywhere is close to herd immunity. At the current death rate, by most estimates we’d likely be looking at north of a million covid deaths before we approach herd immunity in this country alone. Also, deaths are a trailing indicator, so we won’t know the consequences (in terms of # of deaths, at least) of states reopening when they do for many months. Eduardo Rodriguez (who I’m sure would have fallen into your category of “people in fairly good health under 55”) is out for at least this season, possibly longer, due to health complications resulting from covid infection. The sentiments you are expressing in your post are dangerous (and incorrect) and it’s reasoning like yours that has put the US in the situation it is in, and has directly led to thousands of otherwise preventable deaths.
Herd immunity is what describes different outcomes to mass protests in cities that already went through their first wave (NYC, Chicago, DC, Boston) and those that didn’t (LA, Miami, Houston, Phoenix). There are reasons the thresholds are far lower than the 60% originally inspected such as inoculating super-spreaders first, that people change their behavior even without a lockdown (such as Sweden did) so the R0 goes down, etc.
I’m the only commenter here who actually provides data on deaths or hospitalizations per population, afaik. I already provided on the other thread that in CA, 0% of those infected under 17 have died and 0.07% of those in the 18-34 age group have died.
So tell me how you define HIT, what NY’s seroprevalence is, and how much better a comprehensive lockdown for months upon months (which is what I assume you want) is than a re-opening with indoor spaces closed. Show your math. Lockdowns have been very costly — $billions in riot damage, suicides, murders exploding 24% in the US’ 50 largest cities.
This isn’t the 14th century. Stop hiding under your bed. You have the internet, you can look at data. (Though I’d see why you wouldn’t want to if you’re grunting “Blue State good, Red State Bad” or “Lockdowns Until Vaccine!” The data isn’t flattering to those points of view.)
“a comprehensive lockdown for months upon months (which is what I assume you want)”
Can you find somebody who wants your multi-month blanket lockdown and ride into the sunset to grind your axes? Who here has stated that?
I see people talking about leadership to create changed behavior, prioritized testing, all the non-lockdown strategies that successful countries have used. And then on top of that when it’s necessary, yes, restricting the highest risk and least critical activities like indoor bars, so that critical facilities like schools can be open without scarring teachers’ lungs.
In just two comments, you asserted that COVID isn’t dangerous to people under 55, that protesters were responsible for increased cases but reopening restaurants was not, and that herd immunity has been achieved in multiple large metro areas. It’s not clear whether you’re just trolling or you sincerely believe what you’re writing but either way, nobody is responding because you’ve asserted so many wrong or factually inconsistent things it’s impossible to keep up.
…you’ve asserted so many wrong or factually inconsistent things it’s impossible to keep up.
He’s auditioning for Kayleigh McEnany’s job.
“A Fresno County child between the ages of 12 and 17 became the first young person in California to die from complications related to COVID-19, health officials said Friday.”
Who’s paying your salary? Conclusion-Jumpers Anonymous?
Excellent point in comparing “good” vs bad states using the mortality rates per million.
The nursing home fiasco in the northeast is unacceptable. I had to go to an emergency room in Broward county In FL on Friday. It was at 25 % capacity. This is supposed to be the epicenter.
Perhaps the solution for the playoffs is to have 3 bubbles. One for each region.
Glad to hear Hospitals aren’t keeping Covid patients in ER beds. Wonder what this article was talking about? https://www.sun-sentinel.com/coronavirus/fl-ne-broward-hospitals-getting-overflow-20200728-akz7k5wmubb2billpnofsqtqdy-story.html
I will repeat…THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT ANY TRANSFERRED HOSPITAL PATIENT EVER INFECTED ANYONE IN A NURSING HOME, NONE. There is a lot of evidence that they couldn’t have been infectious by that time. Try to keep up. The science has been clear on this for more than three months.
There are differences in mortality rates for the NE vs. the rest of the country. That’s a fair comment. But no one knows why. We do know that mortality rates, like case rates, correlate very strongly with population density.
I’ll give you a strong start: The Northeast got his first and early with the BoWash megalopolis being one of most densely population regions of the planet. Information wasn’t present and we (the North East) served as the experiment group for the rest of the US. If we weren’t the worst in mortality rate, something would be horribly wrong with response in other regions considering the timing of all the regional spikes.
When you’ve decided to compare metro areas that are exposed to the virus before any of us even knew it was in the United States and the test was botched to places that are just now experiencing their first wave, you’re making the rest of us wonder if you don’t understand what’s going on or you are picking your conclusion and finding the data to support it.
Lol, have you found verification for how NBA Owners are more transparent than MLB Owners yet? Or that the BoSox traded Betts because they want to run a $75M payroll from here on out? Or how options are more beneficial to the issuer than the holder?
Or are you just here making up nonsense again with your Lockdown Forever friends? Really, you shouldn’t be talking about this Red/Blue nonsense unless you have the data to support it. Of course, you’re not really a data guy, as evidenced by your comments, so…
You made five assertions about things I have said, none of which were accurate characterizations, and then called me “not really a data guy” (ha ha ha) so I think that’s all we need to know. At least for today, your goal appears to be finding factoids that support your predetermined conclusion and trying to win an argument online. There’s no real reason to respond to that.
Surely Shalesh is a bot programmed to troll people. None of what he’s posting makes any sense, but it does contain certain buzzwords and concepts semi-relevant to the discussion to make it seem like it’s a response, when in reality it’s just verbal diarrhea. It’s a lot like many of the bots you see frequently on Twitter and other social media.
Great, more insults. If there’s anyone who has actually looked at Coronavirus data or read some papers on HIT that would like to challenge anything I’ve said above, I’d love to hear their point-of-view. I already know CNN’s, so I don’t need more parrots repeating that. But this is the same crowd that believes in the MLB’s “Hidden Revenues” conspiracy theory, so I won’t hold my breath.
I’m a scientist and have read hundreds of papers. I’ve already exploded some of the myths you’re peddling, such as the fake nursing home scandal, and that opening up states like FL and TX didn’t result in a surge in cases and deaths.
Wow, you’re just making s–t up. Az with 3035 deaths in a population of 7,279,000 = 2398 per million. I’m sure your Fla numbers are wrong also. Why would you want to lie about this stuff?
LOL, do you even math bro? 3035/7.28 = 528. Jeez, NY would have killed everybody by your math. (Luckily, they spared those not in nursing homes.)
I was told there would be no math.
Um, we don’t have herd immunity.
Since June 15:
FL : 420,004 cases, 4461 deaths
NY: 40,601 cases, 1253 deaths
TX: 381,096 cases, 5644 deaths
NJ: 17,034 cases, 1335 deaths
By the way, there is not a shred of evidence that any transferred hospital patient ever infected anyone in a nursing home. There is considerable evidence that C19 patients don’t remain infectious for much more than a week after symptoms emerge, so it’s highly unlikely any transferred patient could have infected anyone. For all states that have reported nursing home deaths, the correlation between number of deaths inside NH with deaths outside of them is close to 0.90. IOW, what causes NH deaths is the spread of virus outside of them, increasing the probability that staff members, who come and go everyday, will bring the virus in. There is also a very high correlation across the U.S. between population density and cases. It’s not a coincidence that NJ, RI, MA and CT have the highest PD in the U.S., and that NYC has by far the highest for any city.
You better tell ProPublica then (Don’t understand the cult forming around having to say Cuomo did a good job. He didn’t.):
https://www.propublica.org/article/fire-through-dry-grass-andrew-cuomo-saw-covid-19-threat-to-nursing-homes-then-he-risked-adding-to-it
“A nursing home in Troy, New York, followed the governor’s order to accept patients being treated for COVID-19. Six weeks later, 18 residents were dead of the disease.”
“Moreover, the nursing home could not test any such prospective residents — those treated for COVID-19 or those hospitalized for other reasons — to see if they were newly infected or perhaps still contagious despite their treatment. It was all laid out in a formal order, effective March 25. New York was the only state in the nation that barred testing of those being placed or returning to nursing homes.
In the weeks that followed the March 25 order, COVID-19 tore through New York state’s nursing facilities, killing more than 6,000 people — about 6% of its more than 100,000 nursing home residents. In all, as many as 4,500 COVID-19 infected patients were sent to nursing homes across the state, according to a count conducted by The Associated Press.”
On April 3, Diamond Hill was ordered to re-admit 1 Covid Patient. “By June, 18 of Diamond Hill’s residents had died from the virus and 58 had been infected. At least 50 of the facility’s more than 100 workers had also been sickened with COVID-19.”
“New Jersey lost 12% of its more than 43,000 residents.”
“In Florida, where such transfers were barred, just 1.6% of 73,000 nursing home residents died of the virus. California, after initially moving toward a policy like New York’s, quickly revised it. So far, it has lost 2% of its 103,000 nursing home residents.”
“Steve McLaughlin, the county executive where Diamond Hill is located, viewed the state’s directive as madness and chose to defy it. …The 320-bed facility, Van Rensselaer Manor, has not seen a single COVID-19 death.”
If MLB and MLBPA (to a lesser extent) had their act together from the start they could have agreed on a 100+ game schedule where teams only play 4 games a week (Thu-Sun) followed by three days off for testing and isolation. Such a plan would could have stretched all summer and given us more games overall with more opportunities to make up games due to weather/outbreaks if necessary. Depending on how things went in the country it could have added games later in the season. This also would have prevented teams from travelling and then finding out they had positive tests.
It’s all a hoax! Masks don’t work! In fact they make it worse! We gotta restart the economy! Kids can’t even get it! The death rate is lower than the flu! Listen to Trump on this one!
– An idiot
Thank you for this article.
Our worst government ever. If you’re mad about the damage the virus has caused to literally everything good in this country, fight back against the anti-science GOP.
Haha says the party denying the 67,000 pediatricians saying kids need to be back in school or the multiple studies showing almost no transmission from student to teachers in other countries, The death rate of under 18 being 0.0 pct per the CDC, having extremely strict restrictions and then not only not condemning but supporting 35 MILLION protestors on the streets in a PANDEMIC in which the exponential growth from that is off the charts, the refusal to look at dozens of doctors, a Yale epidemiologist, multiple hospitals and other countries using HCQ AS A PREVENTATIIVE successfully despite having no other better option, strongly pushing for cloth masks despite 40 years of failed studies on it and ZERO double blinded studies showing works, wanting keep everyone locked down despite death rates for under 50 LESS THAN THE FLU. Let’s not forget to mention the death rates being considerably worse due to the 5 or so incompetent governors putting our most vulnerable back into nursing homes, a decision by a politician that’s as bad as many this century.
I’m a lifelong democrat who has left then now loony left over last few months. They are clearly promoting chaos and racial divide and refuse to look at any science. Actually embarrassing how they have used a pandemic to push propaganda. Instead it’s all based on constant fear which sadly works with low information citizens. So stop with the so called science crap as they have proven time and time again during this that science is the LAST thing they are using to make any decisions. Disagree with me all you want but you can’t argue actual facts. Instead the left has made decisions on emotions. Most at this site know it’s data and facts that matter. Quit watching CNN!!
What did you like about the Democrat’s platform in 2019 that changed so drastically? Why were you a Democrat? Who did you leave them for? Why do you feel this new party better reflects your overall ideals?
You are very far from “data and facts” when it comes to your comment on masks. Different viruses are transmitted at different efficiencies based on many different biological factors. The question is not does it “work” or not. It’s how much does it reduce transmission. Masks most assuredly affect dispersion of aerosols. Exactly how much they influence transmission of Covid-19 is the question that will take time to figure out.
I just can’t understand this whole “masks don’t work angle”.
In order to combat the virus we need some sort of shared reality, and an agreed-upon plan. We don’t have that. We aren’t a totalitarian state, where behavior can be enforced from above with the threat of serious penalty. And we aren’t one in which there’s a culture of either conformity or communitarianism. So we blunder along, making big mistakes. What’s happening in baseball is a mirror of what’s happening in the outside world.
Interesting quote from an economist: “Our beliefs have a for-itself element; they constitute our identity and are more than just instruments to help us get ahead. I don’t consider this irrational, but rather essential to being human. We are what we believe in. ” https://www.3quarksdaily.com/3quarksdaily/2020/07/how-we-choose-during-a-pandemic-an-interview-with-richard-robb.html
But you could say the same of the EU, and they have done a far better job.
To an extent, yes, although the Europeans are far more willing to accept technocratic expertise (except for the recent rise in populism). A number of European countries went all-in. We can’t get all-in here without someone punching out a grocery-store clerk for asking a customer to wear a mask. There’s no political will in this country to work together, even when lives are at stake.
The whole premise that there is anything risky about playing baseball is ridiculous. I thought this was a numbers site. If you wanted to actually look at the players risks look at their Google location data for 60 days before the season restarted and their current exposure profile.
Let’s look at some general population numbers just to quantify things:
The fatality rate for the general US population 25-34 is 2.2 deaths per 100k population. (CDC- 7/29 numbers).
There are 750 players on the active rosters, let’s round that up to 1000 for roster turnover.
So the expected number of deaths applying the numbers from 5 months of covid to a 4 month season would be 0.022 deaths. So great they should keep the current precautions to minimize that risk of .022 deaths and more realistically to keep their players off the DL from contracting covid, and just keep playing until someone can show some actual numbers that indicate anything more than a trivial risk.
So if MLB wants to be concerned about something they should suspend any coach or team personal over 44 (35-44 has a fatality rate of 6 per 100k, 45-54 17/100k, 55-64 39/100k).
Go tell Eduardo Rodriguez he doesn’t have a COVID-induced heart condition.
Honestly, where did these bags of puke come from?
I’ve been here all along, Karen.
But really you are making my point for me, according to ESPN Rodriguez tested positive for covid before the start of camp.
How is playing baseball increasing his or any other player’s risk? It’s probably reducing risk by limiting their exposure below their private life non controlled lifestyle.
Show me any evidence at all playing baseball increases risk to the players or staff or the public by any measurable amount. And you certainly won’t see that evidence in the body of this post.
Please show me the numbers where I am wrong. Show me some science, or at least some stats.
You can leave any time if this site offends you.
Doesn’t offend me a bit. The writer offers his opinion, if he’s interviewing someone they offer their opinion, and the readers offer their opinion.
I can handle that, I’m just a little disappointed you are just offering your general disapproval, but nothing to back it up.
I generally won’t offer a contrary opinion unless I have at least some factual basis to offer to back it up.
People can’t argue with any of the facts. They just try and say you’re wrong or come up with some random s example that should never be used in making decisions. I go thru this daily and can’t believe people i respect intellectually throw all logic and reason out the window with this discussion and instead only use emotion. Can’t argue with that as makes no sense and not based in any reality
I don’t think anyone is disagreeing with your death estimate. I made one in a FG comment section a couple of weeks ago. For players, it’s very low, though the risk of long-term complications that could derail a player’s career might be quite a bit higher. It isn’t all about deaths.
But when you claim playing baseball doesn’t increase anyone’s risk of just contracting the virus? Baseball is a group endeavour, groups spread risk. It may not be riskier than what normal life was before the pandemic, but we don’t have normal lives any more, or shouldn’t if we want to reduce the spread of the virus. The kind of interactions that players normally have–sitting side by side in the dugout, spending time in locker rooms, riding together on airplanes and busses–is definitely risky. And to the extent that players live outside the team environment, they help spread the virus to others. Is all that really so hard to understand?
The question of whether baseball should be operating is mostly related to the broader question of “how safe is it to be doing stuff right now?” There is a school of thought that says that things are basically fine in most metro areas, and so life can mostly proceed as normal (life-as-semi-normal-scenario). There is also a school of thought that says that we are only a month or two away from disaster in many metro areas (life-as-pandemic-scenario).
Aside from the travel, which is a serious but solvable problem, (and the fans issue, which has already been solved), baseball is not an especially large risk because it involves so few people. And the protocols are much more extensive than many other businesses right now. So I think that the focus on MLB’s protocols are a bit misguided, as those protocols are fine in the context of the life-as-semi-normal-scenario. But these protocols are fine if you’re seeing community transmission at the current levels of New York (State), and not at all if you’re based in Miami.
If your goal is to prevent your players from testing positive during a season, that is unattainable unless you have a great bubble. If your goal is to prevent it from spreading within and across teams, a good testing program in the life-as-semi-normal scenario should work. But with this level of community transmission it’s just not going to work. Too many players and team employees are too exposed outside of work.
Don’t try and justify it. Many are so emotional now with politics they don’t care what the actual data says. Unbelievable how easy it is nowadays to fool people. I blame it on most don’t comprehend large numbers.
If this site keeps importing gaslighters, I quit.
Disagreeing with people in a civil manner on the internet is now “gaslighting”? When did we all become such delicate flowers?
I think a more legitimate complaint would be to wonder why half the comments are deleted without even an explanation of why. Presumably, it’s because the comments are considered not relevant to baseball, but of course irrelevance never stopped people from clogging up chats with talk of favorite foods, restaurants, music, etc.
I think FG needs to make a clear statement on what is allowed and what isn’t. If information about the pandemic isn’t allowed in comments to an article about the effect of the pandemic on baseball, then say so.