Explaining My NL Cy Young Ballot

Congratulations to Jake Arrieta, who was just named the National League Cy Young Award winner, edging out Clayton Kershaw and Zack Greinke in one of the best Cy Young races in baseball history. Gerrit Cole and Max Scherzer rounded out the top five in the voting, just released over at BBWAA.com.

Back in mid-August, I was informed that I had been chosen to vote on the Cy Young Award in the National League this year; it would be my first time getting to vote on the pitcher awards after being an MVP and Manager of the Year voter last year. As a voter, I feel an obligation to the players to try and acquire as much information as I can in order to make the most educated decision possible, and so I spent the next six weeks working my way through various ideas and philosophies about how to evaluate a pitcher’s performance.

About a week after receiving the ballot, I wrote a piece exploring the idea of using a pitcher’s hitting performance as a variable in deciding the Cy Young Award, and I asked a lot of people in the game whom I respect about their views on that issue. A month later, I worked through some of my thoughts on how to best separate out a catcher’s value from his pitchers’ results, and then the next day, I looked at some other factors mentioned by the commenters, including the potential value of consistency.

In writing those pieces, I wanted to lay some groundwork for how I was attempting to put this puzzle together, because I knew that when the time came to actually show my ballot, no one was going to read a 5,000 word treatise on the complexity of evaluating pitchers with the tools we currently have available. But given the abundance of worthy candidates this year, even that kind of article probably wouldn’t provide enough room to lay out the case for each of the pitchers who had deserving years. In my view, there were three guys who all had seasons that would be easy choices for a Cy Young Award in a normal year, and picking between them was basically an impossible task.

While I eventually had to settle on a 1-5 order, a more realistic assessment of my view is that I turned in ballot with #1A, #1B, #1C, #4, and #5. As I write this, I don’t actually know who is going to win, and I’m not going to feel the wrong guy won no matter how the top three end up being ordered. You can make a strong case for any of them, and the gaps between them are so slight that I don’t think we should be arguing with significant conviction that there is a right answer. There are three deserving Cy Young winners in the National League this year, and I only wish there was some mechanism in place where I could have voted for a tie.

But, at the end of the day, we were asked to split hairs and determine an order. So, now that the voting has been revealed, here is a look at how I filled out my ballot, with some brief overviews of the reasoning behind those decisions. And by brief overview, I mean there are another 2,500 words to this post, but I left out some discussion of things I looked at that ended up not having a huge impact on my decision, such as quality of opposition, park factor adjustments beyond what is already calculated, and which umpires they pitched to, among other things. I’ve tried to lay out my thoughts as coherently as possible while also keeping this post on the shorter side of War and Peace. With that said, on to the ballot itself.

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With Apologies To: Gerrit Cole, Pittsburgh

One of the best young pitchers in baseball, Cole turned into a dominating #1 starter this year, and when I began the process, I assumed I’d have him somewhere on my ballot. In the end, though, he fell just short, coming in at the sixth spot on a ballot with only five openings. While his numbers were excellent, a few small flaws in his resume conspired to push him just outside the top five.

1. He allowed 11 runs that were categorized as unearned

While Cole’s 2.60 ERA is certainly sparkly, rating fifth overall in the NL, his 3.07 runs allowed per nine innings (RA9) actually ranks ninth. In my view, the distinction of an earned run versus an unearned run is not meaningful, and wiping some runs allowed off of his record in an attempt to account for defensive performance behind him while ignoring all of the plays that defenders have an impact on is not a worthwhile endeavor. I think we should indeed attempt to untangle the pitcher/defender responsibility balance in looking at run prevention, but the earned runs/unearned runs dichotomy just isn’t helpful.

2. He was a poor batter, hitting .150/.177/.150 in 71 plate appearances.

In the end, I decided that this award was position-specific, not skill-specific, and that the intent was to honor the best pitcher of the year, not the guy who pitched the best. It might seem like semantics, but a pitcher’s job is more than just throwing the ball to the plate. Everyone agrees that a pitcher’s defensive skills are also part of his performance, since it contributes directly to preventing the opponents from scoring, so at the very minimum, we’re really evaluating a pitcher’s pitching and fielding.

But in the National League, pitchers also have to hit; it’s part of their job. It’s not a big part of the job, and most of them aren’t very good at it, but it is something they are required to do when they take the mound, and I chose to include offensive production as a minor variable in my decision making. Relative to the other candidates for the five spots on my ballot, Cole performed poorly at the plate, and gave his team fewer chances to win while he was on the mound because of it.

These are minor nitpicks in an otherwise excellent season, and if the ballot ran six names deep, I would have happily placed Cole in that final spot. But given how good the field was this year, these flaws were just enough to keep him out of my top five.

#5: Madison Bumgarner, San Francisco Giants

Reiterating that last point a bit, if I had voted solely based on pitching performance, Bumgarner probably wouldn’t have made the cut. He was seventh in the NL among qualified starters in FIP-based WAR, RA9-based WAR, and a 50/50 mix of the two, putting him in the close-but-not-quite group in terms of run prevention. But NL pitchers don’t just pitch and field, they also hit, and no NL pitcher hits quite like Madison Bumgarner.

With a .247/.275/.468 slash line, Bumgarner’s performance at the plate resulted in roughly 11 more runs scored for his team than you’d expect from an average pitcher. If Bumgarner were an average-hitting pitcher but we knocked 11 runs allowed off his total, he’d have had a 2.56 RA9, good for fourth best in the NL. From my perspective, Bumgarner’s offense on days he pitches is just as relevant to the discussion as his pitching performance, since his job is to help his team win, and scoring runs helps your team win just as much as preventing runs from scoring.

Bumgarner combined a very good pitching season with best-in-class offense, and the combination of the two was enough to slot him in at at the final spot on my ballot. He was actually quite close to finishing fourth, in fact, and I’d have no quarrel with anyone who wanted to place him at the top of the second tier of pitchers in the NL this year.

#4: Max Scherzer, Washington Nationals

It speaks to the remarkable crop of candidates this year that one of the best pitchers in baseball could have the best year of his career — including throwing two no-hitters, and nearly a third, with two of them almost ending as perfect games — and not even really be in the mix for the top of the ballot. That’s just insane.

By almost any measure you want to use, Scherzer was better this year than he was in 2013, when he won the AL Cy Young Award. That year, he threw 214 innings and allowed 73 runs; this year he threw 228 innings and allowed 74 runs. His K%-BB% was 27%, the 10th-highest single-season mark for a pitcher in baseball history. Yeah, he gave up a few more home runs, but this was peak-Scherzer, a completely dominating season from a legitimate ace.

But this year, that just gets you a nice participation trophy. Max Scherzer couldn’t have done much more, realistically, but he just picked the wrong year to have the best season of his career.

#3: Zack Greinke, Los Angeles Dodgers

And now we get to the meaty arguments. I know a lot of people think Zack Greinke should be #1, and I expect to take some flak for having him here. I’ll reiterate what I said earlier about seeing almost no difference between any of the pitchers in the top three, so this isn’t any kind of firm stance against Greinke being a worthy candidate, but in working through the process, I also came to the conclusion that I was less comfortable with the arguments for him than I was for the other two choices.

In the end, the case for Greinke essentially comes down to this: run prevention is entirely, or almost entirely, the function of the pitcher’s performance. If you believe that statement, then Greinke is your Cy Young winner. I don’t believe that statement. I think run prevention is a function of pitching and defense, with a bulk of the work being done by the guy on the mound, but the infielders and outfielders having a legitimate impact on the results as well. The trick has always been how to divide up the credit between pitcher and fielders, and the reality is we still don’t know how to do that effectively.

But we do have some tools that at least help point us in the right direction, and we’ve identified things that a pitcher can do to induce weak contact and allow fewer hits on balls in play than others. They can pitch up in the zone, generating a lot of infield flies and balls that land in the outfielders gloves; Chris Young and Jered Weaver are primary examples of this. Or they can just allow weak contact in general, allowing few hard-hit balls, so that their defenders have more time to make plays; this is a more rare skillset, but it does exist to some degree.

In 2015, Greinke didn’t really do either of those things, though, at least as far as we could tell. He posted a 48% ground ball rate and a 9% infield fly rate, so he doesn’t fit the Young/Weaver mold at all. And while Statcast didn’t record batted ball velocity or distance for every play in 2015, on the ones for which it did record data, Greinke’s 87.8 mph average exit velocity ranked just 39th among starters; his competitors for this award ranked #1 and #2, by the way. Tony Blengino, who has been working with this kind of data for years while serving as an executive with the Mariners, broke down the batted ball metrics in more detail and found Greinke’s numbers were not consistent with the idea that he caused his .229 BABIP through dominant pitching.

It’s certainly possible that, at some point, we’ll figure out that Zack Greinke did indeed pitch in such a way that his .229 BABIP was almost entirely a result of his pitching and wasn’t also influenced by some good performances from his supporting cast. And certainly, some of that batted ball prevention was the result of Greinke’s impeccable command, throwing pitches in hard-to-hit locations; he had a better year than FIP gives him credit for. But I don’t think we can reliably conclude that a pitcher has as much control over an out via a ball in play as they do via a strikeout, and so I’m not comfortable simply using metrics that equate all kinds of outs when attempting to isolate a pitcher’s contribution to run prevention.

In the end, the number that probably most convinced me to make Greinke #1C was actually not a number from his 2015 performance, but instead the .305 BABIP he’d allowed over his career up until this season. If Greinke had a longer track record of generating weak contact or showed some recent trend towards hit prevention, I’d have been more comfortable skewing towards his run prevention numbers. However, Greinke has actually been more hittable than average throughout his career, and it’s actually the other two guys in the race who have shown that they can give up fewer hits than FIP expects. And since they also performed better in the numbers that we’re more confident are capturing pitcher performance, Greinke ended up in third place on my ballot.

He had an amazing year, and again, I don’t see a significant separation between the top three spots on this ballot. I have no problem with anyone casting a vote for Greinke at the top of their ballot, and I’ll be happy for him if he wins. For me, though, I just don’t see quite enough evidence that he should get credit for the full amount of his hit prevention to move him past two other pitchers who also had remarkable seasons. And given that he missed a start down the stretch, putting him at only 32 games pitched instead of 33, that tiny sliver of a difference is enough to slide him to third on my ballot.

#2: Clayton Kershaw, Los Angeles Dodgers

Last year, I voted for Kershaw for National League MVP, and he had a better year this year than he did in 2014. In fact, I came very close to putting Kershaw at the top of this ballot, flip-flopping him between #1 and #2 a bunch of times before sending in my final answer on the last day of the regular season. The resume is remarkable, and while strikeout rates are at an all-time high, racking up 301 Ks in 233 innings is still amazing. Remember how we noted that Scherzer’s K%-BB% was 10th-best all-time? Kershaw’s was fourth, behind 1999 Pedro Martinez, 2000 Pedro Martinez, and 2001 Randy Johnson, three of the greatest pitching seasons in the history of the game.

And it’s not like Kershaw struggled when hitters actually did put the bat on the ball. As he does every year, Kershaw held batters to a lower-than-average .282 BABIP, which is actually a little higher than his career average. So how did a pitcher with a 1.99 FIP and a lower-than-average BABIP allow a 2.13 ERA?

Timing. With the bases empty, Kershaw allowed a .282 BABIP. With men on base, it actually dropped to .278, so he didn’t choke when pitching under pressure, or struggle out of the stretch. But with runners in scoring position, his BABIP spiked to .341, which gets us right back to the previous discussion with regard to Greinke and how much weight you put on batted ball results. It’s definitely possible that Kershaw threw some really crappy pitches to the 147 batters he faced with RISP, and that .341 BABIP is the result of him simply pitching his worst when the stakes were the highest, but again, there isn’t actually a lot of evidence for that.

His walk, strikeout, and home run numbers are actually better with RISP than with the bases empty or runners on; he posted a 1.37 FIP in RISP situations this year. He also generated his highest infield fly rate with RISP (11%) and his lowest HR/FB rate (6%), which is why the Hard Contact rates tracked by Baseball Info Solutions have his Hard% lower in RISP situations (19%) than with the bases empty (27%) or runners on (20%). From Statcast, we know that the average exit velocity off of Kershaw this year (on balls tracked by Statcast) was 84.9 mph, tied for the lowest mark in baseball. And hitters have never been able to make good contact off Kershaw, which is why he’s outperformed his FIP by 20 points in his career up through 2015.

I asked friends with teams who have access to the raw Statcast feeds if their internal measures suggested that Kershaw gave up harder contact in RISP situations; they said no. And interestingly, the majority of them said that their internal WAR measures all had Kershaw as the league’s best pitcher this year. If there’s a smoking gun out there that shows that Kershaw’s .341 BABIP in RISP situations was the result of poor pitching, I couldn’t find it, and so I’m not terribly inclined to put much weight on the fact that teams got a good amount of hits off of him in high leverage situations.

So in the end, it was basically a coin flip, and Kershaw ended up in the #2 spot. He could have easily been #1. Maybe he should have been. I have more conviction that he belongs among the top two here than I do about where he belongs within that duo, and again, I really would have liked to be able to vote for a tie. But I couldn’t, and so in the final tally, the hair splitting of minutiae put him second.

#1: Jake Arrieta, Chicago Cubs

If Kershaw is the FIP candidate, and Greinke is the ERA candidate, then Arrieta is the compromise between the two. By runs allowed, he’s half a win behind Greinke. By FIP, he’s a win behind Kerhaw. If you just average the two together, Arrieta comes out on top ever so slightly, though the difference isn’t meaningful.

But I think it’s instructive to recognize that Arrieta does have a history of inducing weak contact. In nearly 800 career innings, his BABIP is .272, and he matched Kershaw’s 84.9 mph average exit velocity, supporting the idea that his .246 BABIP this year might not have been as heavily influenced by his defenders as Greinke’s .229 mark. By BIS’s hard-hit measure, Arrieta was #1 in all of MLB, and he was #3 in generating contact they labeled as Soft, again ahead of the other two viable Cy Young choices.

These measures are definitely imperfect, and we may eventually look back and realize that the absence of launch angle or vector information makes these comparisons faulty. But right now, it’s what we have, and what we have suggests that Arrieta does have some hit-prevention skill, and should be given more credit for that than just looking at FIP would indicate.

So for Arrieta, I weighted his run prevention a bit heavier than I did with Greinke, which (along with working depeer into games and throwing more innings) was enough to make him the run prevention candidate on my ballot. And so, with all of the numbers so close, I barely edged over to the guy who allowed a lower number of runners to cross the plate. With Kershaw, I can see why assigning those runs to him might not be a correct evaluation of his performance, but with Arrieta, I don’t have to make that leap: he was amazing at retiring batters on his own and he stranded runners once they got into scoring position.

There is no wrong answer here. Greinke or Kershaw are also excellent choices, as is Arrieta. I went Arrieta-Kershaw-Greinke, but had ballots with every other possible combination you could imagine, and almost turned in several of them. No matter who won, I’m comfortable that I did everything I could to try and find a separator. I couldn’t, really, and I’m not sure one exists. This was just a year where three guys deserve the trophy.





Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.

157 Comments
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JJ
10 years ago

I get the feeling Kershaw is approaching that same place Bonds or Pujols were at with the MVP award (or LBJ or Jordan in the NBA) where people are almost just looking for excuses not to give him the award. I mean the guy leads in WAR by a good amount, leads in FIP by a lot, leads in xFIP by even more than that, leads in K/9 and K% by a LOT, is 5th or 6th in BB/9 and BB% which means he is 2nd only to Scherzer in K/BB. He is even 8th in HR/9. He leads the league in IP. He’s 2nd in WHIP and OPS against. He even controls the running game and is 6th in CS%. He’s 3rd in QS% if that;s your thing.

Greinke and Arrieta can hang with him in some of these but not in all of them and rankings don’t necessarily do it justice because he leads by a LOT in several of these categories. There simply is not a good statistical argument against Kershaw.

Old School
10 years ago
Reply to  JJ

Congratulations to Jake Arrieta on an outstanding season.

NL Cy Young is well deserved.

Jake Arrieta
10 years ago
Reply to  Old School

Thank you.

Damaso
10 years ago
Reply to  Jake Arrieta

Does anybody know if ISIS takes donations? I’d love to give them my noisy coworker.

LISTEN TO WHAT I HAVE TO SAY
10 years ago
Reply to  JJ

I RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE.

Eminem
10 years ago
Reply to  JJ

Greinke and Arrieta has a humongous lead in ERA, ERA+ and bWAR. That simply cannot get overlooked.

The stats you mentioned, as convincing as they are, takes a back seat when it comes to voting. Run prevention remains as the focus for most voters. Even some supposedly sabermetric guys like Brian Kenny said he prefered run prevention instead of peripherals.

In my opinion, it comes down to a balance of traditional run prevention and fielding independent pitching, because I think it’s rather stupid to ignore all balls in play, a very big part of the game, and act like they never happened. For this reason, Arrieta would be my pick, as he’s excellent in both run prevention and peripherals.

BipMember since 2016
10 years ago
Reply to  Eminem

Kershaw beats Arrieta in basically every controllable measure that impacts run prevention… just not actual run prevention.

Eminem
10 years ago
Reply to  Bip

I’m talking about what actually happened, not what should have happened. Despite many on this site thinks, the end result still matters in the past tense. They may not be “repeatable”, but that’s what happened, otherwise we wouldn’t rank teams be W-L records but by BaseRuns instead.

BTW Arrieta did have a better exit velocity, better GB%, and a better LOB%. And yes, LOB% does matter in the past tense.

BipMember since 2016
10 years ago
Reply to  Bip

Does whether or not Dexter Fowler makes a great play on a ball hit towards him matter when it comes to Cy Young voting? Should it?

Eminem
10 years ago
Reply to  Bip

It’s not like Dexter Fowler is any better than Joc Pederson.

Pirates Hurdles
10 years ago
Reply to  Bip

Umm, FIP is also talking about what DID happen.

ivdown
10 years ago
Reply to  Bip

Sorry guys who think FIP measures “didn’t happen”, I guess all of the home run, strikeout, walk, or HBP at bats really never happened.

Since when did runs allowed because the only thing that “happened”? This is such a weird and faulty argument from people.

pitnick
10 years ago
Reply to  Bip

Ivdown, the components of FIP certainly happened, but when you throw those numbers into a stew and scale it to look like ERA, you’re suggesting what might have happened with league average fielders, luck and timing. FIP components happened. FIP did not.

ivdown
10 years ago
Reply to  Bip

Still faulty. Getting it to look like ERA takes some work, but even without that the formula is the same for everyone, and the idea is sound, so it only favors the pitchers who are better at doing things that are in their control, not the pitchers that aren’t.

And honestly, after all of the data we have seen, can people really say FIP doesn’t work at showing how good or bad a pitcher is? There are very few cases where it doesn’t do a good job. It’s ceratinly better than ERA based stats where it can make Doug Fister in 2014 look better than Stephen Strasburg in 2014, when in reality Strasburg was really much better than Fister, yet Fister had a much better ERA.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2014&month=0&season1=2014&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=10131,9425

Eminem
10 years ago
Reply to  Eminem

@Pirates Hurdles:

You think I don’t know that? Yes, it is about what actually happened, except FIP basically turns a blind eye to all balls in play, which I simply cannot agree with.

Jason G
10 years ago
Reply to  JJ

I couldn’t agree more. Unfortunately, I don’t think most voters are like Dave and put this high level analysis into their decision. At the end of the day, the guys with 22 and 20 wins won the 2 Cy Young awards.

TRN
10 years ago
Reply to  Jason G

Well, what’s Cy Young most famous for? Even Dave here hints at the importance of winning games when he discusses a pitcher’s offensive contribution.

jdbolickMember since 2024
10 years ago
Reply to  JJ

Well said. I expected Arrieta to win even though there’s really no legitimate argument that he should have. Kershaw had the far more dominant season, but if you are one of the people who weights ERA heavily, then Greinke beats Arrieta there.

NastyNate82
10 years ago
Reply to  JJ

While I agree with your overall premise, that writers are going to look for reasons to recognize another pitcher while Kershaw gets stiffed. That doesn’t really apply this year, though, because the competition was so close. Bears watching going forward though, if he continues at this rate without winning many CYA.
Small quibble I think you picked an odd example in Bonds. He won 7 MVP’s, meaning he got no shortage of awards for his play. Better examples are guys like Ted Williams (won two, should have won at least three more) Willie Mays (won two, should have won three or four more) and Mantle (who won three, probably should have won a couple more). We often rag on voters now for down-ballot stuff, which really just tells me we’re looking for stuff to complain about. If we had the internet when they were handing out MVP’s to all those questionable candidates 50-75 years ago, the world would be ablaze.

pitnick
10 years ago
Reply to  JJ

What specifically is wrong with the statistical arguments laid about Dave above, or Tony in his article a while back?

JS7
10 years ago

It really is quite something to go into a debate where 99.99% of people say it is ridiculously close and proclaim that you know the correct order and wonder aloud why everyone doesn’t just agree with you.

Mike from Illinois
10 years ago
Reply to  JS7

Jake Arrieta: 0.86 ERA over his final 20 starts, the lowest ERA by a pitcher over final 20 starts since ER became official

Eric the Snail
10 years ago

Too bad the rest of his starts still count.

Bob
10 years ago
Reply to  Eric the Snail

Apparently, not.

Harold Reynolds
10 years ago
Reply to  Eric the Snail

Nonsense. Everyone knows the games count for more the later you get in the season.

N8*k
10 years ago

Thank you Dave for not talking about weighing Arrieta’s 2nd half stats more heavily. I don’t see any logic to why 2nd half stats are more important.

Dennet
10 years ago

Dave,

One other potential consideration that I know has been studied before (excuse my lack of the link) is the value of pitching deep into games for the next day’s game. It would be interesting to know if the collective bullpens of the Dodgers or Cubs produced better results on average following a Greinke/Kershaw/Arrieta start. If the manager can deploy better relievers for longer periods of time because they appeared less on average in Kershaw and Arrieta starts, that might be a notch in their favor (or a notch against Greinke).

Just a thought.

Warriors
10 years ago
Reply to  Dennet

With such a small sample of inherited runners, I think you’d need to look at the specific situations where inherited runners were allowed to score rather than expect 29% of runners to score just because it’s the league average.

I went through the game logs and here’s a summary. IR = Inherited Runner

Arrieta – Left 8 IR spread across 6 games. Left with RISP and <2 outs one time accounting for one of his two IR scored.

Greinke – 8 inherited runners across 5 games. Left with RISP <2 outs twice accounting for his one IR scored.

Kershaw – 9 inherited runners across 5 games. RISP <2 outs three times accounting for four of his six IR scored.

As you can see, Arrieta left one game in "serious" trouble, Greinke left two in trouble, and Kershaw left three. Greinke never left a game with a runner on third, Arrieta left one game with a runner on third (who then scored), and Kershaw left two games with runners on third (only one scored).

It's not accurate to assume that the bullpen screwed Kershaw over that much more than the other guys when in reality, he left the bullpen with far more difficult situations. Kershaw also left a game with bases loaded and 2 outs with Tulowitzki at the plate and Baez got him to strikeout, so it could have been ever worse for him.

WHOOSH
10 years ago
Reply to  Warriors

But Bennet was not discussing runners.

His point was the relievers pitching fewer innings.

rustydudeMember since 2021
10 years ago

What happened? The Cubs and Astros could be counted on being bottom dwellers. Now they have players winning Cy Youngs and RoY awards.

Brian
10 years ago
Reply to  rustydude

I heard someone say the last time a team won 3 of the major end-of-the-year MLB awards was 1991 (the Braves, with Glavine winning Cy, Pendleton MVP, and Bobby Cox Mngr). Anyone know if that’s accurate? Are there any other teams that have done it? (There must be.) Congrats to the Cubs, though – that’s a lot of hardware for one year.

Anthony
10 years ago
Reply to  Brian

Think it’s false: Lou Piniella took home ALMotY in 2001, and Ichiro won MVP and RotY.

Brian
10 years ago
Reply to  Anthony

Good one! Thanks for the correction.

The 1983 White Sox also had the Cy (LaMarr Hoyt), Rookie (Ron Kittle), and Mngr of the Year (LaRussa). All 3 of them, of course, eventually made the Hall of Fame.

Brian
10 years ago
Reply to  Anthony

Also, the 1993 White Sox had MOY Gene Lamont, Cy Young Jack McDowell, and MVP Frank Thomas.

ThomasP
10 years ago
Reply to  Brian

Manager-of-the-Year is not a major award, anymore than Comeback-Player-of-the-Year is a major award.

Matt Williams
10 years ago
Reply to  ThomasP

Bullshit!

Old School
10 years ago

Okay?! Jake Arrieta is the best pitcher in the universe. He was the Ace of the 2015 BaseRuns champion Chicago Cubs. For you to call him “probably okay” is an embarassment to this website, Dave. He is amazing, not “probably okay”

Steve
10 years ago
Reply to  Old School

uh, what are you quoting

Bob
10 years ago
Reply to  Old School

Sure was amazing against the Mets.

Fro
10 years ago
Reply to  Bob

Post-season doesn’t count in these awards as we all know.

Bob
10 years ago
Reply to  Fro

Doesn’t mean it wasn’t fun to watch.

The Pale Knight
10 years ago
Reply to  Bob

Not nearly as funny as watching dufus yell at his manager “no way you are taking me out of the game” then choking it away.

John
10 years ago

Nah, I think nothing will ever quite beat never having a lead at any point during a best-of-seven series whilst being the heavy favourite.

PC Principal
10 years ago
Reply to  Old School

I agree. Jake Arrieta is stunning and brave.

Randy Marsh
10 years ago
Reply to  PC Principal

I’m PC too, Bro! Did someone say he wasn’t absolutely beautiful and an inspiriation? I’ll have some refreshments and checked your privilege.

BigChief
10 years ago
Reply to  PC Principal

If only PC Principal was around for NotGraphs

Dave's Article on Cy Young voting
10 years ago
Reply to  Old School

Where did I say Arrieta was “probably OK?” I don’t see it anywhere inside my content.

Phillies113
10 years ago

Considering how soon this was posted after the announcement, I’m just going to choose to believe you wrote all this just now.

As for the actual article, it’s really hard to disagree with any of your points. Arrieta is a solid choice, and either Kershaws or Greinke were solid choices as well. Although I disagree with including batting in the evaluation of a best pitcher award. Ultimately though, I don’t think that changes much, so it’s a minor point.

Nice job, Dave. And congrats to Arrieta (and Keuchel)!

cornflake5000
10 years ago
Reply to  Phillies113

He mentioned in his chat that it was half of it was already done done and waiting to be published and he was going to write the rest after the chat and then post it once the award was announced.

Slats
10 years ago

Could you imagine 3 years ago Arrieta and Keuchel winning?

Baseball!

%
10 years ago

In which pitcher offense is praised for the ballot-filler candidates, then completely ignored for Greinke.

pitnick
10 years ago
Reply to  %

Was it ignored or was he trying to not make this thing 10,000 words long?

%
10 years ago
Reply to  pitnick

“Greinke, however, was an excellent hitter for a pitcher, slashing .224/.232/.343 with a 55 wRC+, good for 3rd best among his peers.”

That would have been too hard to add? And if he’s considering it and omitting it from a piece entitled “Explaining my Cy Young Ballot,” I’d say that’s awfully disingenuous of him.

Dusty Baker
10 years ago

I believe that’s an overly simplistic way of dealing with the issue, because Greinke’s got a good lead over Arrieta (and Kershaw) in RA9, and Kershaw’s got a great lead over Arrieta (and Greinke) in FIP and xFIP. Splitting the difference isn’t giving any of the pitchers enough credit. Yesterday I went through and compared all 3 pitchers with several different categories, and the race truly is the greatest Cy Young race I’ve ever seen.

The thing I think people need to consider is, yes, Greinke and then Arrieta have big leads in ERA, but WHY do they? They all have a HR/9 from 0.42-0.59, a fairly small difference. They all have between 6.1-6.4 H/9. They all have from 1.56-2.00 BB/9. They all have between a .508-.533 OPS allowed. With all of these things so similar, why does Kershaw have an ERA so much higher than Greinke and Arrieta? Is it because he’s been a worse pitcher this year? Well judging by all of the above numbers, plus the more than 2 K/9 more than Greinke and Arrieta, that doesn’t look to be the case.

Could it be that while Kershaw has allowed 5 home runs with runners on base, Greinke and Arrieta have only allowed 4? Could it be that relievers are allowing more runners to score for Kershaw than Greinke or Arrieta? That one I don’t know for sure, but I believe 6 of 9 inherited runners have scored for Kershaw from the bullpen. Could it be that despite incredibly similar batted ball statistics, Greinke and Arrieta are just BETTER this season at not allowing runs? Or could it be simply good luck for the first two and bad luck for Kershaw? Just a few things off the top of my head are:
– opening day Uribe didn’t hurry on a slow grounded from Derek Norris and Norris beat it out, causing a run to score.
– A cold day in Colorado, De La Rosa hit what should have been an inning ending chopper up the middle, but the ground was frozen and the ball goes over Kershaw’s head and scores 2 runs.
– Early in the season the Giants had a game with 4 or 5 infield singles against Kershaw.

Of course stuff like this can happen to any pitcher at any time, but that really just underscores my point that it all has happened to Kershaw in 2015. As a Dodger fan I’ve watched Greinke as much as I’ve watched Kershaw, and I’m blanking on any big, memorable moments like this for him. I’d be interested to hear from any Cubs fans or anyone else if he’s had any unlucky moments like this in 2015.

All of this said, it is obviously still an incredibly close race, and anyone who wins will be deserving at this point. But I think simply by splitting down the middle and giving it to any of the pitchers on that logic is faulty.

Dayton Moore
10 years ago
Reply to  Dusty Baker

What are these advanced statistics you speak of Dusty?

Stick to batting average and RBI’s!

I once posted as Ruben Amaro Jr.
10 years ago
Reply to  Dayton Moore

I don’t think that’s really him.

Barack Obama
10 years ago

Hi everyone!

Jesus H. Christ
10 years ago

Hi all!

atoms
10 years ago

BOOOOO. As a Dodger fan, this kinda feels like a rip-off. 2 guys pitched well enough to get the award, and neither did. Yeah, Arrieta was a deserving candidate too, so it’s not exactly bogus that he got it, but Kershaw is the best pitcher in baseball, dammit.

Doyers suck
10 years ago
Reply to  atoms

Q: What is the difference between a Dodgers fan and a baby?
A: The baby will stop whining after awhile.

Bob
10 years ago
Reply to  Doyers suck

…Good one.

atoms
10 years ago
Reply to  Doyers suck

The announcement was made literally just 20 minutes ago, so if this isn’t the right time to have a reaction, then……. I guess nobody should say anything ever.

Or maybe you should just not say anything ever.

Brian
10 years ago
Reply to  atoms

I think you have a right to bummed. I also think it’s best to take these awards lightly, especially considering Arrieta is a perfectly decent choice.

atoms
10 years ago
Reply to  atoms

Oh yeah, I’m not gonna be crying in my beer tonight over this or anything, it’s just more of an “Aw man, that sucks!”

BipMember since 2016
10 years ago
Reply to  Doyers suck

Fangraphs readership upvoted this comment?

Uh oh, what’s going on here

ivdown
10 years ago
Reply to  Doyers suck

People actually upvoted a guy with that terrible of a name and that awful of a joke? Jeez.

Attack Dog
10 years ago
Reply to  atoms

Dodgers fans 2 weeks ago: You can’t go wrong with any of the three. There’s no wrong choice in this race.

Dodgers fans now: What a joke!! Greinke got robbed!

atoms
10 years ago
Reply to  Attack Dog

All 3 were deserving, but it sucks as a fan that neither of the 2 guys I root for were the deserving guy that was selected. Can you not wrap your brain around that for some reason?

Old School
10 years ago
Reply to  atoms

You are wrong. Jake Arrieta is the best pitcher in the universe and was the only one deserving.

Bob
10 years ago
Reply to  atoms

Arrieta being the best pitcher in the universe is statistically improbable

Steve
10 years ago
Reply to  atoms

I think any statistical evaluation of that depends on your inputs to the Drake equation

GpOppo
10 years ago
Reply to  atoms

Behind Grenkie 🙂

Joe Maddon
10 years ago

Congratulations to Jake Arrieta on winning his first Clayton Kershaw Award.

The FoilsMember since 2017
10 years ago

“I averaged bWAR and fWAR and spat out the results.” -Dave Cameron bot

Blink 182
10 years ago
Reply to  The Foils

Q. What number blink does a Dave Cameron bot reach by the end of its first year?

ivdown
10 years ago
Reply to  The Foils

I’ve gotta say, it was pretty upsetting to see Dave Cameron fall victim to fence sitting and not go with the choice that his own damn website shows to be better than everyone by far.

There was no wrong choice between the top 3, but there was a more correct choice.

pitnick
10 years ago
Reply to  ivdown

fWAR for pitchers was a neat invention, but it’s well past its sell-by date. I’d be horrified if Cameron’s process was just to look at the table.

James
10 years ago

So just curious, what is the purpose of the pitcher if it isn’t run prevention?

The FoilsMember since 2017
10 years ago
Reply to  James

The purpose of the pitcher is also to win ballgames, so do you think wins are the only relevant stat?

James
10 years ago
Reply to  The Foils

And what is the pitcher’s role in winning ballgames?

Steve
10 years ago
Reply to  James

throwing pitches that minimize the amount of walks and balls that are likely to be hits/XBHs

Anthony
10 years ago
Reply to  James

Making the pitch and fielding anything near him. Last I checked, he didn’t turn the 6-4-3 double play or make the diving catch in the gap. He pitches. Pitchers and defenses prevent runs. Pitchers, defenses and offenses win games. This isn’t rocket science.

James
10 years ago
Reply to  James

Easy there, partner. You’re getting worked up over nothing. I like Steve’s answer better. Let’s use Anthony’s argument here for a batter:

What is the role for Batter Fred?

“Batter Fred’s ultimate role is to get his team runs.”

But using Anthony’s reasoning, we need to take out the other 8 players in the lineup because Batter Fred can only control what Batter Fred does. Therefore, the best offensive player this year was Chris Davis because he hit the most HR’s (47). I guess we can call that Runner Independent Hitting? So if your be-all end-all pitching stat is FIP (since that’s what a pitcher controls), then you also have to believe that Chris Davis was the best offensive player this season.

Also using Anthony’s reasoning,

James
10 years ago
Reply to  James

Meh, I’ll just stop there for now. Don’t want to underwhelm anyone with my lack of rocket science.

%
10 years ago
Reply to  James

Runner Independent Hitting. I like it.

BipMember since 2016
10 years ago
Reply to  James

Jadama, you actually started out with excellent reasoning there, and just kind of diverted it.

Yes, we do want to take out the other 8 players, because yes, Davis cannot control what they do. However, instead of throwing away anything but homers, you need to assign value to the other things the hitter does at the plate. Since we don’t want to make this value dependent on a particular player’s teammates, we assign historical run values – in other words, how much a double is worth based on its average change in run expectancy. Essentially, it’s like filling in the lineup with an average team so we are comparing all hitters on the same scale.

The point about only counting home runs is taken, but anticipated, if you read Dave’s actual post. FIP is not perfect, as there is more to pitching that how many walk, strikeouts, and homers a pitcher allows. However, the alternative to FIP is not to just look at runs and pretend there is no element of defense and luck in it.

James
10 years ago
Reply to  James

Thank you Bip. I think I diverted because I myself can’t wrap my head around counting only home runs (just like I can’t count ONLY FIP), so it was hard for me to proceed and I just used circular reasoning. I was trying to equate FIP to batters (RIH-silly I know), and show Anthony that it can be rather limiting to rely on only one metric/stat. You actually helped me with that…

Because once we start introducing “how much a double is worth based on its average change in run expectancy” then we would start talking about a metric such as wRC+. Since doubles don’t count toward FIP, doubles wouldn’t count toward RIH. Therefore RIH is limiting. Therefore FIP is limiting (I know you said it’s not perfect).

J.D. Martin
10 years ago
Reply to  James

Hitters have a lot more control over their balls in play than a pitcher does, so they receive more credit

BipMember since 2016
10 years ago
Reply to  James

I have my own issues with FIP, as well as the insistence that it is not predictive, and that xFIP is what is predictive, and various other things. But, in any case, FIP, at the very least, generally does a better job of telling you how good a pitcher is than RA does in samples of approximately one year. As the sample gets bigger, the RA method gets more reliable.

Now, of course the Cy Young is not about who the best pitcher is, but rather who performed the best over the previous season. There, FIP is a little more dicey, but like I say earlier, that fact does not make RA/9 a more reliable method.

James
10 years ago
Reply to  James

I think my main problem with FIP is that it devalues the art of actually pitching a 7, 8, 9 inning game and rewards the strike out pitcher/thrower too much.

I know that my “problem” isn’t going to overcome the power of math, but I just hope that as fans we can still enjoy watching a pitcher work a lineup without having overpowering stuff. At certain times they are TRYING to induce weak contact (for a double play) as opposed to going for two strike outs like their K-master counterparts.

James
10 years ago
Reply to  James

By the way I’m not doggin on FIP. I use it all the time for fantasy and for pretending that I’m Jon Daniels. I just think the CY should be awarded to the person who had the best year. And to ME the best year goes to, among other things (innings pitched is big for me), who prevented the most runs, therefore putting their team in position to win the most games. I think most baseball PLAYERS would agree with that. So I don’t care about predictive metrics when giving out awards. Predict = Future

But Dave straight up said that he doesn’t think it’s the pitcher’s function to prevent runs. So if he and I were to debate, we would go nowhere because we don’t share the same view of what the pitcher’s purpose is.

Jmerts
10 years ago

I always personally found Greinke to be a little fortunate to have finished with a sub-2 ERA compared to Arrieta, mostly because his K rate isn’t dominant like both Arrieta and Kershaw’s, and his batted ball stats pale in comparison to both guys (besides soft/hard hit %.) This had to have been a two-horse race between Kershaw and Arrieta IMO because, when you throw defense out the window, they really were two of the best starting pitchers in the league this year – or at least the NL.

P.S. I know this should be saved for RotoGraphs, but I’m giving myself a sabermetric-al pat on the back for drafting both Arrieta and Keuchel in fantasy. I knew they’d be awesome while being underrated as hell, but I didn’t expect this.

Hank
10 years ago

In the end, I decided that this award was position-specific, not skill-specific, and that the intent was to honor the best pitcher of the year, not the guy who pitched the best.

So when this standard is applied to the top 3, how do things shake out? I see no mention of offense among the top 3, which seems rather odd. Was this considered and just omitted from the article or did you just change the standard for the down ballot vote?

In a race as close as you portray it seems worth a mention. Greinke had a significant WAR contribution from both offense and baserunning (0.7WAR). Arrieta at 0.2, Kershaw at 0

Peter R
10 years ago
Reply to  Hank

Guessing, since it’s Dave, that he created a formula to determine it for him and he picked and weighted the key metrics he determined important. I am guessing that the same formula was used for all the positions on the ballot so hitting was included for all and will low weighting. Based on my reading of his article, the offense only was important to the rankings at the end of the ballot.

Andy
10 years ago

“I only wish there was some mechanism in place where I could have voted for a tie.”

Well, let’s get on with it. In the comments to your article on this conundrum before the season ended, I suggested some things that could be done to make ties more likely in years when it really did seem that two or more of the candidates were equally deserving.

a) finer grain votes (instead of 5, 3, 1 or whatever it is, 10.0, 9.9, 9.8, etc
b) permit giving two or more players the same number of points
c) call very close final points tallies equal within statistical error.

Just think, instead of the suspense of not knowing which of three pitchers would win this year, we could have had seven possible outcomes.

Jason
10 years ago
Reply to  Andy

Really enjoy this idea because along with making the votes maybe more accurate in a case like this year NL Cy Young it would also be interesting to look at from a historical perspective. Kershaw finished a fairly distant 3rd here but with what you are proposing it could more accurately show how close this race really was and how great they all really were.

Scott M
10 years ago
Reply to  Jason

Agreed. On the ballot, you could still have 5 spaces, but leave it to the voter as to how to fill them. For example, this year Dave could have voted:
1. Arrieta
1. Kershaw
1. Greinke
4. Scherzer
5. Bumgarner

I don’t think I’d like to see the “finer grain votes” that Andy suggested, but I do like the idea of being able vote for ties.

Noah BaronMember since 2016
10 years ago

Statistically, Kershaw was by far the best pitcher. I’m disappointed that you voted for Arrieta over Kershaw, even though Arrieta had a fantastic season.

TRN
10 years ago
Reply to  Noah Baron

What is the term for Wins, HR rates and ERA again?

Otter
10 years ago

I have no issue with anyone voting for Arrieta, but I don’t agree with Dave’s “split the difference” reasoning.

Enos Jheri Curl
10 years ago

Hitting stats for Pitchers?

“C’mon Dave, give me a break”

David Lee Roth
10 years ago

Hey, hey, hey, hey, one break coming up!

bawfuls
10 years ago

Camron has been a huge proponent of FIP-based WAR for years, and yet here when he has an opportunity to put that philosophy into action, he goes with…. and average of ERA and FIP based WAR instead.

brian
10 years ago
Reply to  bawfuls

Cameron has written several times at the years that he prefers FIP based WAR to RA9 WAR, but that he knows neither are perfect and the real answer is at some as of yet unknown point in between.

Bawfuls
10 years ago
Reply to  brian

Preferring FIP-WAR to RA9-WAR while acknowledging that the real answer is some point in between is great. But it also implies one thinks that “some point in between” should be closer to the FIP end than the RA9 end, thus a simple average doesn’t make sense.

brian
10 years ago
Reply to  bawfuls

That said. I would have voted for Kershaw myself. That could just be my belief that he’s the best pitcher in the world talking an not an analysis of who really was the best pitcher this specific season.

But nah, I think he was probably the best this season too.

So close though it’s dumb to argue with any of the three. They’re all fine choices.

ivdown
10 years ago
Reply to  bawfuls

Very disappointing to see.

Dan
10 years ago

“In the end, the number that probably most convinced me to make Greinke #1C was actually not a number from his 2015 performance, but instead the .305 BABIP he’d allowed over his career up until this season.”

The reasoning behind this doesn’t sit right with me. If the question is whether Grienke’s run prevention this year was representative of his true talent, then his career BABIP seems important. But if the question is who has the most true talent, then Kershaw would win going away and Scherzer is probably second.

How much of Grienke’s BABIP suppression ability should we expect to explain the observed number in one year? While the data we have for strength of contact seems worth looking at, I agree with you that the numbers we have for this don’t seem very definitive yet. Even beyond the data, what if Grienke’s BABIP was low this year because he allowed contact that went right at fielders, making for easy plays? I don’t know if that’s a repeatable skill, but does that even matter for Cy Young voting?

None of this is to say the ordering should necessarily be any different, or that I know the answers to these questions. I’m just trying to understand the logical assumptions.

Ian R.
10 years ago
Reply to  Dan

I think Dave’s argument goes something like this:

* Arrieta has a history of limiting hits on contact.
* Therefore, Arrieta’s low BABIP was likely at least in part due to skill on Arrieta’s part.
* Greinke has a history of being fairly hittable.
* Therefore, Greinke’s low BABIP was likely due mostly to luck and/or his teammates’ defense.

Thus, Arrieta gets some credit for his low BABIP, while Greinke does not. It’s not a question of true talent so much as trying to figure out how much to chalk up to luck and how much to chalk up to the pitcher’s own skill.

Not saying I agree with this argument, but it seems like a valid line of reasoning.

Dan
10 years ago
Reply to  Ian R.

I agree it’s a valid line of reasoning, but I don’t think it is applied consistently. How much of Arrieta’s career low walk rate or career high ground ball rate is attributable to luck? Probably not as much as Grienke’s BABIP, but probably more than zero. Awards tend to be given on the basis of results and not skill, though I don’t have a problem with either as long as one is clear about the choice.

Whether Grienke’s 2015 BABIP is attributable to his own results or his fielders’ is a legitimate question, I’m just not sure we can answer it by looking at Grienke’s underlying skill.

Forrest Gumption
10 years ago

Why couldn’t we have given Cy Young awards to all 3? When we are splitting hairs and deciding whose A+ seasons are better than other A+ seasons, it’s just asinine and stupid to even bother doing so.

Yeah yeah I know everyone’s going to go “slippery slope” on this – but I’m saying we could easily make a cutoff: if anyone gets more than 3 1st place votes then they should win an MVP or Cy Young award. Why make them so exclusive to one player when oftentimes more than one player deserves it?

Andy
10 years ago

‘the majority of them said that their internal WAR measures all had Kershaw as the league’s best pitcher this year.”

And yet Kershaw didn’t even make the top three for all voters. One had him fourth, and another fifth.

Depressing.

Andy
10 years ago
Reply to  Andy

Sorry, this was not meant to be a reply to your post, F. Gumpt.

Though in that regard, see my post further upthread.

Ebenezer
10 years ago
Reply to  Andy

Manny Navarro, of the Miami Herald voted Kershaw fourth.

Hal McCoy of Dayton Daily News/FoxSportsOhio, voted Kershaw fifth.

Chet Ritchie
10 years ago
Reply to  Ebenezer

Clearly those two folks should no longer be allowed to vote. They need to explain themselves.

BipMember since 2016
10 years ago
Reply to  Ebenezer

From what I can tell, Navarro doesn’t even seem to cover baseball primarily. And McCoy seemed to just sort the leaderboard by wins and vote that way.

Jordan
10 years ago

I have now come to a point that I no longer enjoy reading Dave Cameron material, I often find myself disagreeing with most of what he says. I find him to be arrogant and beyond reproach, as if everything he says is gold and we as minions just living on his planet should accept his writing without question.

Andy
10 years ago
Reply to  Jordan

Did we read the same thing? I’ve rarely read an article in which an author expressed more doubts about his view, and was clearer about all the ambiguities involved.

Jordan
10 years ago
Reply to  Andy

Perhaps this was the wrong article to express this opinion in the comments section, as for the article I don’t disagree with his ballot in anyway, I don’t think you could go wrong with any of the 3, but look at some of the reasoning.
“In the end, the number that probably most convinced me to make Greinke #1C was actually not a number from his 2015 performance, but instead the .305 BABIP he’d allowed over his career up until this season.”
Hitting stats for pitchers? What? Who give a crap about that?
“Split the difference” reasoning is just lazy.
Truth be told where I notice this arrogance and the seaming expectation that we just take everything he says without question is mostly in his chats, it’s as though he has no interest in actually doing the chat and is just going through the motions. Guess its has just left a bad taste in my mouth with him.

BipMember since 2016
10 years ago
Reply to  Jordan

thats his BABIP allowed, not as a batter

Jordan
10 years ago
Reply to  Jordan

Yes Bip i’m aware of that, I didn’t pick each point apart because someone else already has, I just listed them…….Read it again and notice that I listed the gripes not responded to each one.

TRN
10 years ago
Reply to  Jordan

Back at his USS Mariner days he once belittled the Cubs for signing Ryan Dempster (originally). I remember posting about him having previously been an All-Star and that he had some talent, and was uniformly mocked by Dave’s Internet sycophants, some of whom you’ll still find here. In the ensuing years, Dave has been able to become a little less of a ‘pure analyst’ and a little more open to ideas other than his own. 10 years ago he would have mailed in his ballot with the FIP scores next to each pitchers’ name and been done with that task, so for that, I commend him.

Back to the original topic, though, I have often wondered about scoring environments and the synergistic effects that can be attained, and how they would be applied to a discussion like this. Wrigley Field in the summer months (typically) is a homer haven. Chavez Ravine, has long been renown for it’s ability to kill fly balls at night. I actually think the weather was pretty friendly to Cubs home pitchers this year, but I wonder when looking at park factors, if an extra step shouldn’t be taken. A start in Wrigley on April 17th, can be vastly different than a start on July 27th. Then, what happens if you throw in one of the (dying) breed of hitter’s umpires to a July 27th game at Wrigley. Say Kershaw is better than his opponent that day, but gives up 3 HR’s in a 7-4 victory, yet his tougher pitching condition in the end of the year wash is the same as when a cold-front blew in 2 days later and Arrieta gives up 2 hits over 8 innings, fearlessly challenging hitters to blast fly balls into an 20 MPH breeze, with an umpire who is giving him 5 inches at the top of the zone.

Do things like that all wash out over the course of the season? I don’t know. I suspect not.

"I just don't like drama" (yeah, you do)
10 years ago
Reply to  Jordan

I have yet to read a “Cameron is arrogant” comment that exhibits any sense of humility or any reasonable, reasoned points.
Coincidence?
Of course not.

Stating ones opinion strongly and clearly is not arrogant. That you have a problem with someone who clearly and strongly expresses an opinion different from yours, and resort to name-calling and other casual dismissals says far more about you, than it does about whoever the other person might be.

Paul
10 years ago

Nice post – great to see a baseball writer providing a sophisticated and coherent argument as to why he made his decisions… You clearly agonised over the decision however as a UK based fan of the sport I never really got the whole CY Young thing… none of it seems to me to actually be very important. But thanks for another thoughtful post Dave.

Peter
10 years ago
Reply to  Paul

As an American, I’ve never understood the whole a-loo-minium thing.

John
10 years ago

I wonder if schezer having 2 perfect games and a no hitter would’ve changed the voting order

Goat Fondler
10 years ago
Reply to  John

absolutely. I wouldn’t be surprised if he won if that were the case

Franco
10 years ago

I’m still dumbfounded that Daniel Murphy took these guys deep 4 times in a week. Baseball is an odd sport.

Peter
10 years ago
Reply to  Franco

And in four years it will be the only story he tells at his new sports bar.

Roger
10 years ago
Reply to  Peter

I approve of recategorizing sports bars (along with car dealerships) as the pro-athlete memento mori, the inescapable reminder that all things pass away with time. Et in Arcadia buffalo wings.

Larry Bernandez
10 years ago

I think Greinke really deserved to win. I know that his FIP wasn’t nearly as good as his ERA, but I don’t think that should matter. He pitched to his own team’s strengths and as a result, he avoided giving up too many runs. Why punish him for having a good defense?

BipMember since 2016
10 years ago

“He pitched to his own team’s strengths and as a result, he avoided giving up too many runs.”

Did he though? Dodgers team BABIP was much higher than Greinke’s overall. And, assuming Arrieta didn’t have the option to pitch to his team’s strength in the same way, why would he be penalized for that?

TRN
10 years ago

Even naively you realize that Kershaw also pitched for the Dodgers, right? Why was letting the batters hit the ball a strength for Greinke and a weakness for Kershaw? Luck.

BipMember since 2016
10 years ago

Your paragraph on Kershaw actually further convinced me that he should have won, though I still agree that there is not a large enough separation between any of the to feel that way with any detectable passion.

Chet Ritchie
10 years ago

Dave Cameron, nearly all of your comments fall on deaf ears after your silly notion of there being little difference between ERA/Runs Allowed. The dichotomy, in MHO, is vast. As a pitcher, I should not be penalized for shit defense. So my D gives up 3 errors and then one guy actually gets a hit and you want to blame the runs on me. Moronic.

BipMember since 2016
10 years ago
Reply to  Chet Ritchie

You have not even attempted to understand the point being made.

The difference between earned and unearned runs is not the difference between runs allowed by the pitcher and by the defense.
The difference between earned and unearned runs is some dude’s arbitrary judgement call.

If you are not penalizing a guy for allowing a run on an error, why would you credit him for having an amazing shortstop who makes an amazing play most other shortstops don’t make?

Goat Fondler
10 years ago

Why did you mention hitting and defense for Cole and Bumgarner but not for Greinke, Kershaw, or Arrieta? Considering hitting and defense would give Greinke a slight boost.

Rusty
10 years ago

Admit it, you just voted for the guy with the most wins.

OneearMember since 2018
10 years ago
Reply to  Rusty

lol

That Guy
10 years ago
Reply to  Rusty

Haha, I would have gained a new level of respect for Cameron had he trolled us with a wins argument here.

imachainsaw
10 years ago

3 months from now everybody will be okay with the results because three months from now everyone will again be able to look at the season objectively and realize that the stats themselves, but also the context surrounding the player make for a great story and ultimately a very impressive season worthy of long lasting recognition. too bad that everyone here feels that their opinion is infallible and the world is owed their two cents in any case.

imatree
10 years ago
Reply to  imachainsaw

It was decent of you to share yours.

ThomasP
10 years ago

Basically, every voter came in with a preconceived notion on who was the winner, and then cherry-picked his/her stats to validate that preconceived noted. That includes Dave! There really was no wrong choice among the top three.

imachainsaw
10 years ago
Reply to  ThomasP

voters and commenters alike, and i am very willing to bet the house that many of these commenters who are throwing a fit over their pitcher not winning, were saying a month ago that they would be okay with any result. this was an exceptional year where there wasn’t a clear cut winner like in recent years, and there were legitimately three historically noteworthy candidates. and instead of basking in the fact that we were all privileged to witness this, some have chosen to expend their energy in whining.

imachainsaw
10 years ago
Reply to  imachainsaw

i mean the margins in differentiating the pitchers were razor thin, but some people act like there’s a galaxy of separation. and alas, we have what many amateur baseball analytic conversations have come down to which is making mountains out of molehills.

tz
10 years ago

My top three would have looked like this:

Rock: Greinke

Paper: Arrieta

Scissors: Kershaw

Dynamite
10 years ago
Reply to  tz

I defeat rock and paper, but since scissors defeats me, I vote for Kershaw.

Doug Lampert
10 years ago
Reply to  Dynamite

A game with you in it degenerates to Rock, Dynamite, Scissors.

Dynamite dominates paper and eliminates it from the reasonable choices.

To make it stable you need to also add an additional element that losses to rock and paper, but beats dynamite and scissors.

Only Glove, No Love
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug Lampert

Bartolo eats dynamite and scissors. Will he work?

Shirtless Bartolo Colon
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug Lampert

I also ate a power drill and 10% of the internet too.

Joe
10 years ago

Dave’s column here might be seen not as some kind of perfect explanation but rather as a very lucid attempt to turn months worth of thoughts and feelings into a relatively small amount of clear language. It’s not a perfect job – but how could it be? Think of the number of permutations he had to do here.

Ultimately a lot of the comments here boil down to “I like/don’t like the conclusion DC came to therefore DC is great/sux.” I’m no apologist but the man just expended an amazing amount of energy trying to come up with the best answer he could – and if it’s different from the answer [you] came up with, it shouldn’t impact the way [you] feel about him as a person. Come on, Internet! We’re losing the plot here. Let’s remember (didn’t we used to know?) how to disagree.

dbminn
10 years ago

Great article, Dave

sopcod
10 years ago

I wonder if all the voters put this much effort, thought and analysis into their ballots.

OneearMember since 2018
10 years ago

I applaud Dave’s attempt to make this an objective exercise. Too bad it’s not possible.

Mark
10 years ago

The irony to me is that I came in to the article fairly agnostic about who should win, but thought Dave’s paragraph on Kershaw more persuasive than his paragraph on Arrieta. Maybe the reasoning on Kershaw played to my inclinations, though.

Still, this is what we want: an informed writer taking his vote seriously and showing his work. That’s real progress.

Jeff Sullivan Salmon Feast
10 years ago

Cy or no Cy, Clayton still justifies a Jeff Sullivan Salmon Feast!

Dosotre
10 years ago

Dave, saw your interview on MLB and couldn’t figure out why Brian Kenny couldn’t accept your assertion that the truth lies somewhere in the middle between run prevention and FIP. This is objective: since ERA- and FIP- are set on the same scale, figure their harmonic mean which gives a value relative to league avg for elite performance in both categories. You get:
Arrieta 51.4
Kershaw 54.4
Greinke 54.6