Giants Acquire Rafael Devers in Unexpected Blockbuster

Dale Zanine-Imagn Images

Look, I’ll just get right to it:

That’s the kind of blockbuster you don’t see every day. Rafael Devers is the best healthy Red Sox hitter. The Sox are above .500 and in the thick of the AL playoff hunt. They’re desperate for offense – though they came into the year with more hitters than spots, injuries to Alex Bregman, Triston Casas, Wilyer Abreu, and Masataka Yoshida have left them scrambling for depth. Abraham Toro has been batting high in the order of late. Romy Gonzalez is their backup DH. And they just traded their starting DH – hitting .271/.400/494, good for 14 home runs and a 145 wRC+ – for salary relief? We’re going to need a deeper dive.

Let’s start with the return. The Sox sent Devers and his entire contract – 10 years and $313.5 million at time of signing, with about $250 million and 8.5 years left on it today – to the Giants. In exchange, they got a wide mixture of players. There’s a major leaguer, Jordan Hicks. There’s a recently graduated prospect, Kyle Harrison. There’s a well-regarded hitting prospect, James Tibbs III. There’s another, further away prospect, pitcher Jose Bello. Finally, there’s that sweet, sweet financial flexibility, something the Sox are no stranger to.

If you look at baseball completely in the abstract, with bean-counting surplus value as your only guiding light for evaluating a trade, this one looks reasonable enough. Devers is under contract for a lot of years at a lot of dollars per year, and projection systems consistently think that he’ll generate low WAR totals for his salary in the back half of his deal. Harrison was a top 25 prospect not so long ago. Tibbs was a first round draft pick last year. Bello is an interesting lottery ticket. Hicks – okay, Hicks might have been a salary offset. But the point is, it’s likely that if all you care about is WAR accrued per dollar spent, the Sox come out ahead on this deal for most reasonable models of surplus value.

I don’t think those models make a ton of sense here, though. The Red Sox are trying to make the playoffs. You know what their team could use more than a 22-year-old in High-A and a former top pitching prospect with a 4.50 career ERA? They could use a slugging DH with the perfect swing for Fenway. If their wildest dreams came true, maybe he’d be 28 and under team control for a long time so that they didn’t have to try desperately to find a replacement soon.

Guys like Devers don’t grow on trees. Want an example of what I mean? There are no players on either the Red Sox or Giants projected for a better batting line the rest of the season. In 2024? You guessed it: No player on either the Red Sox or Giants produced a higher wRC+ than Devers. There are better hitters than Devers, but there aren’t many. Building a baseball team is a game of marshaling scarce resources, and one of the scarcest of all is a truly impactful hitter.

It’s possible that Tibbs, who for my money is the best player the Sox got back in this deal, will end up being an impactful hitter, though obviously he doesn’t project to turn out as well as Devers has. A 2024 first round pick out of Florida State, Tibbs struggled in his brief pro debut but looks at home this year. He’s evaluated as a 45-FV prospect, displaying an impressive command of the strike zone and hitting the ball hard. Here’s a more detailed scouting report courtesy of Eric Longenhagen:

Tibbs was a consistent three-year performer at Florida State, where he hit .338/.462/.685 throughout his career. He had a power leap as a junior, doubling his career home run total with 28 draft-year bombs; he also improved his K-to-BB ratio, with 58 walks and 37 strikeouts in 320 PA. He had one of the 2024 draft’s higher floors as a lefty bat with a stable blend of contact and power. A really putrid post-draft summer cast a pall upon his profile until Tibbs was able to right the ship in 2025; he was sent back to Eugene and was hitting .245/.377/.480 with 12 homers in 56 games prior to the Rafael Devers trade.

Tibbs’ lightning quick hands allow him to snatch inner-half pitches to his pull side and generate oppo contact on pitches that travel deeper in the zone. For how compact he is, Tibbs is quite strong and uses the ground well to help him generate power. He is of medium build at a relatively maxed-out 6-feet tall and doesn’t produce monster peak exit velos (his max exits are roughly average), but he consistently hits the ball hard and in the air, which speaks to the verve in his hitting hands. He crushes in the middle of the plate, but looks much less comfortable facing lefties, and has had some trouble covering the up-and-away portion of the zone because his hips tend to bail toward first base as he unwinds.

He also needs to improve on defense. Some of this might be that the turf in Eugene creates a fast track of sorts for batted balls, but Tibbs has played some routine singles into triples this year because the baseball gets behind him, and he sometimes looks uncomfortable at the catch point on fly balls. He has a good arm and should be developed in right field, but he has some work to do out there if he’s going to be an average defender. Tibbs is a good hitter and prospect whose reasonable outcomes are that of a righty-mashing platoon outfielder who may need to be subbed out against lefties or for a defensive replacement. If he can improve in even one of those areas, then he’ll project more like an everyday player. He’s tracking to debut sometimes in late 2027 or 2028.

Next on my personal list of impact likelihood would be Harrison, who debuted in 2023 as San Francisco’s top prospect and has been bouncing between the big leagues, Triple-A, and the IL ever since. He hasn’t locked down a spot because he hasn’t landed on a successful second pitch to pair with his solid fastball. He throws the fastball a ton, a slurvy breaking ball next-most, and mixes in an inconsistent but interestingly-shaped changeup. He looked electric as a reliever but hasn’t clicked yet as a starter.

Boston seems to agree that Harrison isn’t immediately ready for the majors; he was in the San Francisco rotation at the time of the trade (slated to start Sunday’s game!), but the Red Sox optioned him to Triple-A after acquiring him. That means the only player who will join Boston’s playoff-hopeful roster is Hicks, whose conversion from reliever to starter hasn’t really taken. As a reliever, he lived in triple digits and snapped off a hellacious slider underneath the heat. As a starter, his fastball played down and he didn’t quite have enough secondaries to balance it out. I expect the Sox to plug him into the back of the bullpen when he returns from the IL, where he’s been since June 1 thanks to an inflamed toe. In truth, the biggest reason Hicks is in this deal is probably salary; he’s due $32 million through 2027. He could still be a true asset in the bullpen, though; at his peak, he was absolutely dominant.

The Sox shopped in quantity more so than quality here; they also got Bello, a 2023 international signee who looked sharp in the DSL last year. Here’s Longenhagen on Bello:

Bello had a dominant second DSL season in 2024 and was pitching in the Giants’ Complex League rotation in Arizona for the first part of 2025 when he was traded to Boston as part of the package for Devers. He has an east/west starter’s mix with very advanced command and three potentially average pitches. The best of these is Bello’s upper-70s slider, which he uses most of all, often as a way to get ahead of hitters. His fastball lives in the 88-92 mph range most of the time and has sink/tail action that is vulnerable to damage when Bello doesn’t locate it. Mostly, he does though. For his age, he’s a fairly precise craftsman who knows how to start his sinker above the zone and drop it in the top for looking strikes. Bello repeats his release and is a coordinated athlete, but he’s not really an explosive one. He isn’t all that athletically projectable and isn’t a lock to throw harder as he matures. He’s going to command his stuff (and maybe add a cutter) en route to a backend starter role, which is still years away.

And if, like me, you’re a visual learner, here he is pitching in 2025:

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As you can see from the timelines of the players we’re talking about here, none of these guys are likely to make a huge impact on the 2025 Red Sox. That’s what I don’t get about this trade. We’re talking about a team that, at least on the surface, is trying to compete both now and in the future. They have one of the best farm systems in baseball, with both top-end talent and depth. They consolidated some of that value over the offseason by trading for Garrett Crochet, but they still entered the season with a lot of prospects but not enough locked-in contributors. Would Trevor Story rebound? Lucas Giolito? Casas?

Now, the Red Sox still have a great farm system. They replenished some of their depth from this trade. They also have financial flexibility, that vaunted commodity that led them to trade Mookie Betts before the 2020 season. Last time, they used that money to sign… well, to sign Rafael Devers. If they’re lucky, perhaps one of their mega-prospects (Roman Anthony, Marcelo Mayer, and Kristian Campbell) will be as good as Devers in the final accounting. But even then, for how long? Campbell is locked up through 2034, but the other two aren’t, and if they end up as good as Devers, they’ll command big contracts too.

I’m being harsh here, because the dollars do matter – Devers’ deal is long enough, and his defensive value is shaky enough, that the last few years of it will probably sting. Look at trades and free agent contracts in recent years, though, and you can see that a dry “X WAR for Y dollars” accounting of the situation doesn’t correctly capture teams’ behavior and incentives. Teams overpay the model for superstars, because you can’t build a team out of surplus value. It’s great to have 26 2-WAR players making the league minimum, but that’s not a playoff team even if it’s a best-financial-value world-beater. In fact, you can think of those cost-controlled players as allowing teams to splurge on stars. If you’re filling out most of your roster in a cost-effective manner, you can go all out with dollars to squeeze as much WAR as possible into the superstar spots. The good news is, every team gets to draft or sign amateurs, so the cost-controlled surplus value spigot is self-replenishing. The superstar spigot, on the other hand, flows only rarely.

That’s the thinking in San Francisco. They spent the 2022-23 and 2023-24 offseasons trying to shoot the moon; they reportedly offered Aaron Judge and Shohei Ohtani roughly equivalent contracts to the ones they signed with their current teams. When those two spurned their advances, they made some secondary signings, Matt Chapman, Willy Adames, Jung Hoo Lee, and Justin Verlander prominent among them. They didn’t succeed in assembling a dominant offense, though, and they also had payroll room – after all, they cleared a ton of money that they didn’t spend. They came into the year with the 14th-largest payroll in baseball, less than a team of their stature should be spending in my opinion. Now they’ve added another locked-in roster spot, a star of the game who elevates their lineup.

Specifically, Devers is going to elevate their lineup by replacing the biggest black hole on the roster, first base. Giants first basemen have an aggregate 82 wRC+ this year, 25th in baseball. Now, Devers famously isn’t going to play first base this year (more on that below) and third base is occupied, but I think he’ll likely consider a position change in the offseason, and in the immediate future, the Giants can simply shift DH Wilmer Flores (112 wRC+, much better) to first.

Dan Szymborski produced two ZiPS projections for me. First, Devers in San Francisco as a first baseman:

ZiPS Projection – Rafael Devers (1B)
Year BA OBP SLG AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB OPS+ WAR
RoS 2025 .285 .379 .509 316 52 90 21 1 16 60 45 80 2 150 2.9
2026 .272 .365 .493 562 90 153 36 2 28 93 77 139 3 141 4.3
2027 .265 .359 .473 548 86 145 34 1 26 89 76 134 3 134 3.7
2028 .261 .357 .462 528 81 138 32 1 24 83 74 129 2 131 3.3
2029 .257 .352 .451 506 76 130 30 1 22 76 70 124 2 126 2.8
2030 .249 .345 .430 477 69 119 27 1 19 68 65 119 2 119 2.2
2031 .245 .341 .416 440 61 108 25 1 16 60 59 112 1 114 1.7
2032 .243 .338 .410 395 53 96 22 1 14 52 53 102 1 112 1.4
2033 .241 .333 .404 349 46 84 19 1 12 45 46 91 1 109 1.0

Second, as a full-time DH:

ZiPS Projection – Rafael Devers (DH)
Year BA OBP SLG AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB OPS+ WAR
RoS 2025 .285 .379 .509 316 52 90 21 1 16 60 45 80 2 150 3.0
2026 .270 .364 .486 562 90 152 36 2 27 93 78 139 3 139 4.0
2027 .264 .358 .466 549 86 145 34 1 25 88 76 134 3 132 3.4
2028 .259 .356 .455 528 81 137 32 1 23 82 74 129 2 128 3.0
2029 .255 .350 .444 505 75 129 30 1 21 75 70 124 2 124 2.5
2030 .250 .345 .426 476 68 119 28 1 18 68 65 119 2 118 2.1
2031 .247 .343 .418 438 62 108 25 1 16 59 60 112 1 115 1.7
2032 .244 .338 .405 390 52 95 22 1 13 51 52 101 1 110 1.3
2033 .240 .333 .398 334 44 80 18 1 11 42 44 87 1 107 0.9

There are marginal differences around positional adjustments and the DH hitting penalty, but the gist is that ZiPS – and common sense – expect Devers to be one of the better hitters in the game for the next four to five years, gradually trending downwards as he ages. The last four years of his deal make it so that – as Jeff Passan put it – “every model in baseball has (the contract) as underwater.” The front half of it, on the other hand? Clearly a good deal.

There are two big questions about this deal, and they’re very different ones. The first concerns the off-field drama that took place between Devers and the front office earlier this year. When the Sox signed Bregman, they asked Devers to play DH instead of his long-time position of third base. He hemmed and hawed and complained about it before eventually complying. Then, when Casas went down with a season-ending injury, GM Craig Breslow asked Devers to learn first base to ease the positional logjam. Devers declined, setting off another wave of consternation.

I wasn’t in the room for these discussions. I don’t know who was unreasonable and who got misrepresented in public. But I’ll say this: When you somehow turn a complete nothing – our so-so defender needs to move to a less demanding defensive position – into a conflict big enough that it leads to you trading your franchise cornerstone, in the midst of a playoff chase, for future considerations, you’ve clearly done a poor job in communication and crisis management. I still don’t understand how the Red Sox keep getting themselves in positions where they look at their best players and decide they need to get rid of them, but if someone tries to convince you that the 2025 Red Sox got better with this trade, I think laughing is an appropriate response. That’s not what’s going on here. Regardless of who was right, regardless of whether Devers was being stubborn or Breslow unreasonable, the front office already failed. They failed when they let some sideshow, the difference between Devers at first base and Devers at DH, end in trading him. The goal of baseball is to build a great team and win the World Series. You don’t have to point blame to one or the other to say that things went off the rails when what started as a positional tiff ends with you trading one of your best players for salary relief.

The second big question is one I’ve been answering in parts throughout this article: Should you look to dollars-per-WAR calculations and surplus value and say that this trade is a home run for the Red Sox, or should you look at each team’s playoff odds in 2025 and say the Giants fleeced them? I land somewhere in the middle, but closer to the second viewpoint. Yes, Devers’ deal will be “underwater” from a surplus value standpoint when it’s all said and done. No, that doesn’t change how good he’s likely to be in the next few years. No, signing a big contract doesn’t preclude teams from signing other players or putting a winning club on the field. People have been alternately calling the contracts of Bryce Harper, Manny Machado, and Mookie Betts “overpays” off and on for nearly a decade now, and their teams just continue to be excellent. Those teams also continue to be extremely happy to employ their stars – the Padres even gave Machado another “overpay” of an extension.

Apply some premium to the difference between a good player and a star, and I think this trade ends up right around value neutral, maybe a small win for the Red Sox. But that ignores the position that each team is in. The Giants will get a ton of value from Devers in 2025 alone; they’re in playoff position but need more offense to feel good about their chances. Meanwhile, the Red Sox are half a game out of the last Wild Card spot. I like their odds quite a bit less now that they’re replacing Devers’ bat with that of Romy Gonzalez or David Hamilton.

It’s all well and good to build a nice farm system and always prioritize flexibility, the bottom line, a self-sustaining machine that will devour the baseball world and spit out championship teams on league-minimum salaries. But what about this year? Jarren Duran is 29 and getting more expensive. Bregman is already 31, and he can opt out of his deal after this year if he wants – and depending on how the injury shakes out, I expect he will, given his stellar start. The Sox swung a blockbuster for Crochet this offseason, and he’s currently healthy, never a guarantee with pitchers in general and Crochet in particular. One sixth of the team control years of Anthony and Mayer will come this year (or perhaps slightly less, depending on Super 2 status). This is a strange season to be punting; the Sox have a ton of good players who might not be around all that long, and they just traded their best current hitter away instead of sticking with the current team.

I hated it when the Red Sox made a similar move in trading away Betts. I hate when the Orioles hedge instead of adding, playing for the future as the present slips away. I hate that the Red Sox seem not to care about making the playoffs – they haven’t been since 2021, and yet they’re not showing much urgency to get back. That’s what really bothers me about this trade. It’s not the silly back and forth between Devers and the front office. It’s not the chorus of number crunchers asserting that Devers is a bad value. It’s not the commodification of baseball contracts and players – though to be fair, it’s partially that. My main complaint is that teams are too willing to ignore the present even when it makes very little sense to do so. So good work, Giants, for finding a superstar who fits with your team’s current window and will immediately improve your outlook for the next handful of years. And bad work, Red Sox, for twisting yourself into a position where you trade a franchise cornerstone while you’re above .500 and scrambling for playoff relevance. Sometimes it doesn’t need to be more complicated than that.

The description of Kyle Harrison in this story has been updated to correct a previous oversight.





Ben is a writer at FanGraphs. He can be found on Bluesky @benclemens.

413 Comments
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slz
1 year ago

I recall a few weeks ago people being skeptical when it was suggested FSG was creating a problem with Devers because they wanted out of his contract – even though they have done this multiple times before with both the Red Sox and Liverpool

It turns out those of us suggesting this was contrived were wrong too! We expected it would play out sometime in the offseason

David Klein
1 year ago
Reply to  slz

The Fenway group might be getting ready to sell the Penguins back to Mario.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  slz

Maybe this is true, but it’s also true that Bregman is a much better 3B defender than Devers, while his bat is tailor-made for Fenway. Devers is lousy at 3B and needed to be moved off there anyway, it was just a question of when to have that conversation.

jdbolickMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

Devers is lousy at 3B and needed to be moved off there anyway, 

Devers is no worse now as a defender than he was when he came up, and he’s been worth 27.5 fWAR over those eight years. If he had declined, then I would be more understanding of their decision making. Instead, they replaced him with a player who will opt-out after this season and put someone else into the lineup who is an even worse defender at a more important defensive position.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  jdbolick

Right, he’s going to opt out of $40M per right after missing three months with an injury to the same place he was injured earlier in his career (/eyeroll).

EDIT: Devers was a below-average defensive 3B when he came up, and he still is now. Saying he’s no worse than when he came up is irrelevant to my point.

Last edited 1 year ago by drewsylvania
jdbolickMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

Devers was a below-average defensive 3B when he came up, and he still is now. Saying he’s no worse than when he came up is irrelevant to my point.

Boston thought Devers was so valuable despite his defense that they gave him $313.5 million. Again, he has not declined offensively or defensively. The back end of that contract will be painful, but right now he is as good as he has ever been, and has been by far the most productive hitter for the Red Sox this season.

slz
1 year ago
Reply to  jdbolick

I dont even think the backend will be all that painful. 30M when he’s 35-36 will be like 20M right now, which theyve been paying to Trevor Story and Yoshida to be worthless for multiple years now

frankenspock
1 year ago
Reply to  slz

Yes, this. In 2032, Devers salary might read like what the Dodgers are currently overpaying Michael Conforto. You wince at it a little bit but it’s not a glaring black hole in your accounting. And you’ll probably still get a little production out of it, even if it does decline to 1-2 WAR per year.

That’s a nice sum to not have to worry about first base (or DH) for the next eight years. People need to understand better that constructing a good baseball roster is mostly about finding guys who are productive at every position for as long as you can. Devers was an automatic lineup card addition for the Sox and would have remained so for a decade before they needed to think about finding somebody else.

stkahlaMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

Where exactly are you getting that Bregman is going to miss 3 months??? More like 2, it would require a setback for him to miss 3.

Brock244
1 year ago
Reply to  jdbolick

To be fair, the savings from Devers probably go towards a Bregman extension.

So in theory, Devers vs. Bregman, Harrison, Thibs, Hicks (who I still think can be a solid SP, but maybe is just a reliever).

Then again, they could have signed both Devers and Bregman. But once that relationship soured, they probably preferred a healthier environment for the Anthony, Campbell, Mayer, etc core to establish themselves into

Last edited 1 year ago by Brock244
jdbolickMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  Brock244

To be fair, the savings from Devers probably go towards a Bregman extension.

It could, but Bregman is three years older, more injury-prone, and has been significantly less productive at the plate than Devers over the last five seasons. It’s also worth remembering that Boston is essentially eating the remaining $33 million on Hicks’ contract.

they probably preferred a healthier environment for the Anthony, Campbell, Mayer, etc core to establish themselves into

The problem is that most of Boston’s young hitters are outfielders, which is realistically where Campbell should be as well.

Brock244
1 year ago
Reply to  jdbolick

Devers and Bregman are pretty similar caliber players at this point. Devers more bat value, Bregman more glove, but both ~4 WAR players.

While Bregman is older, he also will be substantially cheaper. I didnt agree with moving Devers off 3B originally, but part of the plan was to improve defense + add a RH bat to balance out the lineup.

Assuming Devers wasn’t going back to 3B, this does in theory open up DH so they can fit all their OFers . Now can play Anthony, Abreu, Rafaela, and Duran together while rotating them at OF/DH

So to be fair Bregman over Devers does have defensive/versitility upside even if losing bat value

Last edited 1 year ago by Brock244
soddingjunkmailMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  Brock244

While Bregman is older, he also will be substantially cheaper

This would be a much stronger argument if Bregman were under team control beyond this year. Presumably other teams will also be interested in a substantially cheaper 4 WAR 3B too.

RobotBoy
1 year ago
Reply to  jdbolick

Mayer has only played infield, mostly at SS. Yes, Campbell played CF – but he also played a lot of SS and 2nd. Scouts think he’ll end up just fine at 2nd. I think it’s fair to question the trade but unlike this writer, I don’t think the Red Sox saw themselves as all-in for the playoffs this year. And if they do keep this current run going, they can add talent before the deadline. As a fan, I really appreciated how Devers came through in some very big moments, but as a DH, he was overpaid. If he really wouldn’t play first, then it does seem like a good move.

playing 3rd for bostonMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  RobotBoy

>I don’t think the Red Sox saw themselves as all-in for the playoffs this year.

And they shouldn’t. This team might well squeeze into a WC, but no way are they making a deep playoff run with that roster.

PhilMember since 2016
1 year ago

Why couldn’t they make a deep playoff run? The 2023 D’backs had a negative run differential and made the World Series.

dodgerbleu
1 year ago

The whole point of expanding the number of playoff spots is that anything can happen if you get into the playoffs. The Marlins have never won their division. They only made the playoffs as a wildcard team twice in their first 30 seasons.They won the World Series both years. We’re literally just a year removed from a Rangers-Diamondbacks matchup where both teams were wildcard teams, the Diamondbacks were only an 84 regular season win team.

Teams know this. They also know they receive playoff revenue. Texas got an extra $39M, not counting gate or merch revenue. AZ got an extra $26M.

And of course there is the, you know, fans to consider. The same ones who are rightfully still pissed about Mookie being dealt and after adding Crochet and Bregman, were under the impression the mini rebuild was over.

And who says they need to go all in? With Devers in the lineup and Crochet on the mound, they’re favored in almost any matchup, with any team. Dobbins looks like a good enough #3. They only needed to get another 2 or 3, they’d love a Seth Lugo but on paper, even a notch below him would make them competitive in any playoff series. Surely they could at least spend the prospect capital to add Jose Soriano or Kikuchi, or Fedde or Sugano. They certainly have a chance now, but if this trade had added, instead of subtracted, their chances would be much better.

frankenspock
1 year ago

Why not? They’re top ten in both batting and pitching team WAR. Far worse teams have won the World Series.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  RobotBoy

Gonna need a citation on scouts thinking Campbell will end up “just fine” at 2B.

If Campbell ends up as effective at 2B as Devers is at 3B, that will be a massive win for the Sox.

jdbolickMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  RobotBoy

Yes, Campbell played CF – but he also played a lot of SS and 2nd. Scouts think he’ll end up just fine at 2nd

That is absolutely not true. Campbell fell to the fourth round precisely because he was known to be terrible defensively at Georgia Tech. He reinforced that in the minor leagues, which is why he went from playing 85% of his innings at second base in his first professional season to just 36% of his innings at second base in 2024. Boston was trying to find him a position.

Go look at the top 100 prospects preseason article. I told people back then when they were so excited about him that Campbell that he was not a Major League caliber second baseman. The Red Sox threw him out there because they like his bat and just hoped for the best, but realistically, he is an outfielder or DH.

Campbell has accumulated -13 DRS in just two and a half months, which equals the absolute worst mark that Devers has ever put up at third base over an entire season.

SpudMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  jdbolick

Box score scouting, I’ve noticed they pinch run Hamilton for Campbell almost every night. Are they doing that to get Hamilton defense in late in the game? I thought Campbell was a steals threat but they’d rather Hamilton get picked off..

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  RobotBoy

I think Mayer has made a very strong case for him to be the starting shortstop when Bregman comes back.

I think Campbell is going to get the rest of the year to figure out second base, and if he doesn’t show serious improvement by the end of the year he’s going to first. Assuming that Blaze Jordan doesn’t outhit him.

Someone needs to create a rolling OAA graph.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  jdbolick

Campbell isn’t good in the OF either. I haven’t seen that he is better there than 2B.

jreyn24Member since 2025
1 year ago
Reply to  jdbolick

It’s also worth remembering that Boston is essentially eating the remaining $33 million on Hicks’ contract.

That’s not necessarily all dead money. Let’s hold judgement until we’re sure he’s not the high-leverage bullpen weapon he once was.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  jreyn24

Even in the bullpen, he was more fun than good.

jdbolickMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  jreyn24

Hicks has been bad for a while now. He was dominant years ago when he threw 100+, but at 97 he’s not effective, especially since his slider isn’t missing bats as much as it used to.

compucles
1 year ago
Reply to  jdbolick

Even in his prime, Hicks was never truly dominant with his lack of control.

bigpizzamanMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  jdbolick

2023: 3.22 FIP (reliever)
2024: 4.37 FIP (starter)
2025: 3.58 FIP (mostly starter)

Bad for a while now? Sorry, not seeing it

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  bigpizzaman

Thank goodness this isn’t 2005, and we now have far better DIPS stats than FIPz

bigpizzamanMember since 2019
1 year ago

Oh sorry, I’ll use xERA

2018: 3.60 xERA (reliever)
2019: 2.39 xERA (reliever, only 28 IP)
2020: 0 IP
2021: 3.32 xERA (reliever, only 10 IP)
2022: 3.91 xERA (50/50 reliever and starter)
2023: 3.30 xERA (reliever)
2024: 4.91 xERA (starter)
2025: 3.86 xERA (mostly starter)

ZIPS ROS: 4.04 ERA, 3.92 FIP (as a starter)

Still not seeing it

Last edited 1 year ago by bigpizzaman
nathanjMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  jreyn24

Had a similar thought. Maybe Red Sox said they’d take Hicks if the Giants added Tibbs III.

cs3
1 year ago
Reply to  jreyn24

Have you seen this guys pitch lately?

frankenspock
1 year ago
Reply to  jdbolick

Bregman has been more productive than Devers this year, though. If there’s a choice between the two I’d go with Devers every time, however, and just find somebody cheaper to play competent third base.Maybe re-enter the Arenado talks.

96mncMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Brock244

Hicks can’t stay healthy as a SP.

MoMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  Brock244

Uh, I disagree. The savings from Devers will probably go to reclamation project starting pitchers without a QO. Why choose between Buehler or Giolito when they could re-sign both!

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  Mo

We’ll see if either guy is worth re-signing, both have shown a ton of variance.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Mo

#FinancialFlexibility

slz
1 year ago
Reply to  jdbolick

Kristian Campbell is a worse 2B than Devers has ever been at 3B!

playing 3rd for bostonMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  slz

Kid’s early in his first major league season, cut him some slack. He’s young enough, and athletic enough, to still improve a lot. With Devers, by now you know what you are (not) getting.

jdbolickMember since 2016
1 year ago

Campbell fell to the fourth round of the 2023 draft because everyone knew that he wasn’t good enough defensively to play the infield in the Major Leagues. He has -13 DRS after two and a half months, which equals the worst total Devers has ever put up over a full season.

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  slz

There is no denying that Campbell’s play a 2nd has been well below major league quality this year to a point that it challenges the worst second base defense I have ever seen. When Bregman returns the Red Sox would be wise to give Mayer a good look at 2nd.

MoMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  bosoxforlife

I would rather see Mayer get a good look at SS.

Campbell is athletic enough that he should be able to handle 2B. I think the issue has been the sox moving him around too much so he hasn’t gotten enough reps at any one position. Last year he played SS, 2B, and CF about evenly, and he also started games at RF, LF, and 3B.

This year, he has started at LF, CF, and 2B, and spent 2 weeks working out at 1B.

Maybe he’ll always be a bad defender, but the Sox should allow him the space to just learn 1 position and see how that goes.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  Mo

The thing I worry about with Campbell at 2B is that he’s 6’3″. Bending is probably fairly difficult for him. In theory he should be much better as an OF but he still looks terrible. Maybe he’d improve with reps But, of course, they need Campbell to play 2B.

slz
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

I just cant see him making it at 2B. In the 3 game series I saw him play there his hands were horrific – like, there are HS players at your random school down the street with better hands

jdbolickMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  Mo

Campbell is athletic enough that he should be able to handle 2B.

Some of the most athletic players in baseball are outfielders who look hopeless in the infield. Campbell has great straight line speed, but he doesn’t bend well and he lacks lateral agility. He’s not fluid in receiving the ball or quickly transitioning to a throw. He is not an infielder at major league level.

 Last year he played SS, 2B, and CF about evenly, and he also started games at RF, LF, and 3B.

As I said, Boston was trying to find a position that he could play adequately. They have so much talent in the outfield that they were desperate for him to stay on the infield even if scouts already knew that he couldn’t.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  jdbolick

The missing piece here is that the Red Sox had a different front office that was under huge pressure to keep one of their homegrown stars after screwing up the last couple. They were willing to do and say all kinds of stuff to keep him.

Even if his defensive numbers were consistently worse after the extension (which is probably true but maybe not , would have to look it up to be sure) and would have changed some people’s minds it was pretty clear where this was all going. I recall a fairly unambiguous about how the Red Sox viewed Devers as a 1B / DH long term which makes me wonder why they made all those promises to him!

None of what I wrote absolves the current Red Sox management of seriously screwing this up, BTW. This group screwed this one up as bad as you can.

dodgerbleu
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I don’t understand this point being made. Put aside the Cora comments or the recency of the contract, I mean at a more fundamental level, I can’t recall this being a thing before, this conversation ever taking place when a new GM is signed.

And that’s what this was, it wasn’t a different front office. It was one guy, and Bloom wasn’t the top baseball decision maker in the front office, he reported to the President and CEO, Sam Kennedy, who is still there, and still President and CEO. All other front office members are still there. Alex Cora and all board members and owners above them are still there – Kennedy reports to John Henry and Thomas Werner, the Owner and Chairmen respectively – though it’s fair to keep them out of the day-to-day.

And Alex Cora fills out the lineup card, and was obviously part of the loop with the agreement to keep him at 3B. He HAD to be. Alex Cora is still there.

Calling it a new front office is a mischaracterization. There was complete continuity besides Breslow, and Breslow had 10 months to tell Devers he wasn’t going to honor Blooms obligation, if that’s even a thing, which I don’t think it is. It’s a new GM, and no one has ever claimed any other GM had the authority to supersede agreements made by the organization. Perhaps it has been negotiated, – I know Elias had some staff provisions in his agreement – but even if this were a new front office, which it’s not, it’s not SOP that a new front office doesn’t have to honor any prior commitments or previous obligations.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  dodgerbleu

I guarantee you this happens a lot. New regimes want changes–always.

dodgerbleu
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

Front office changes? It might be common, but I doubt it, and I know it’s not always. No one wants something, always. I know Elias did – he was kind of a package deal with Sig Mejda – they were in STL and Houston together – and Sig was his #2.

Besides comments about wanting to learn the organization, and not recalling someone coming in and cleaning house in the front office, the reason I doubt a front-office regime is common is because ambitious holdovers have an opportunity to be promoted by staying, and don’t if they follow the GM. They’re often on different contract years, and even if they do follow hop teams together, eventually most outgrow that. Andrew Freidman left the Rays in 2014 to sign with LA, and recruited Farhan Zaidi pretty hard to leave Oakland. But it took the GM role to entice him, Friedman was president of baseball operations, and that’s already pseudo inventing a role to accommodate another top front office executive.There are only so many good ones available, and they tend to be find the organization that can fit their upward career path.

It takes someone like Elias or Friedman to have the juice to get ownership to hand over the keys, and to entice someone to leave their current organization and go be blocked by the front office star who is hiring them. Elias should know, he outgrew Lunhow after hopping teams with him. And while there are probably other examples, Lunhow and Elias leaving St. Louis are the first high profile example of a package deal I can remember.

MoMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  dodgerbleu

I don’t think anyone knows how much stock to put into the 3B agreement between Devers and Bloom. Clearly Devers thought he would be playing 3B at least a few more years.

I think the bigger problem was the consistent messaging over the winter that ‘Devers is our third baseman’ while they were actively looking for a replacement third baseman. The player-team communication was broken.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  dodgerbleu

It’s not the same front office. For one there’s an entirely new person setting the direction of the baseball operations (Sam Kennedy does not have POBO powers, otherwise they wouldn’t have been able to hire the guys they did). They do a bunch of things differently, and there’s been some turnover in the staff as well.

I think the question of “is it the same front office or not” is a distraction. Even if everyone stayed in the same spots, the Red Sox FO would be well within its rights to move Rafael Devers off third base. It wasn’t written down anywhere, and the right to determine who plays where isn’t up to any one player. And logically makes a lot of sense that a new GM would look at the promises the last one made and say, hey, this doesn’t make any sense!

But it’s also undeniably true that the Red Sox screwed this up, and that’s the more important issue. This was covered really well in Davy’s article on this (and the comments section on it). Just because you can tell your employees to do whatever doesn’t mean it’s a good idea, especially an employee who has a ton of job protections. That’s true in any industry. Enough people doing work-to-rule will cause most organizations to crumble, as work relies on some sort of understanding between employees and management to smooth over the stuff that hasn’t been written down. Because you can’t write everything down.

Manco
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

It’s not the same front office. For one there’s an entirely new person setting the direction of the baseball operations (Sam Kennedy does not have POBO powers, otherwise they wouldn’t have been able to hire the guys they did)

Sadtrombone, it’s called plausible deniability. The CBO gets to “run” the show but he is responsible for everything that happens. A glorified patsy. Disposable. Why else do the Red Sox CBO get fired after 3-4 years and the ownership and Kennedy remain the same?

It is a classical setup for corporate organizations. However it doesn’t change the real truth of the matter. The truth the ownership is the one paying, they have final say. In the end the ownership saved over $200M and got out of the luxury tax threshold. And Breslow takes the fan hate. Rinse repeat just like they did with Bloom, with Dombrowski, with Cherington. Devers shouldn’t have ever believe any words that come out of these peoples mouths when they don’t control their own fate, and that is his fault.

I think the question of “is it the same front office or not” is a distraction. Even if everyone stayed in the same spots, the Red Sox FO would be well within its rights to move Rafael Devers off third base. It wasn’t written down anywhere, and the right to determine who plays where isn’t up to any one player.

Yeah sure but that’s if you want to be tyrannical. It’s a great recipe for friction. It clearly worked wonders festering the split. Oh yeah that’s right it was Kennedy who were pushing to sign Bregman…

dodgerbleu
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I agree it’s irrelevant, but your point is being made that it was Bloom’s agreement, by a front office that is no longer there, and who were willing to do and say whatever it took to keep Devers, agreements that are now null and void under Breslow and the “new front office”, scare quotes because we’re not going to agree on that point.

No organization, in any industry, hires a new CEO and calls it a new Executive Management Team without replacing any of the existing members or adding any positions. I’ve been on an Executive Management Team during 3 CEO replacements as we were marketing companies to sell them.

Sure, things change under a new CEO, but operations remain largely the same… I don’t agree with the spirit of ‘it wasn’t in writing so it doesn’t count’, because that both legally and ethically untrue, and logically any employee that was made assurances would not just hope, but expect that those assurances remained, especially if the manager confirmed they did. Any employee would be well within their rights to insist that they remain, and any organization would be well within their rights to depart ways.But just about any employee with the amount of publicly available evidence would be able to bring, and win, a wrongful termination case afterwards.

But whether or not the agreement counts is also beside the point.

And a new front office isn’t the point either, it’s germane to the point, but I didn’t deny the new CEO, I said calling it a new front office was a mischaracterization. And it is, that’s not an opinion, it just is. Breslow isn’t there to micromanage his Front Office staff. They’re likely the only people that report directly to him, but he still let’s them operate their way. He could mandate things, require new analytics, new ways of scouting, add or subtract positions, add to or remove from budgets, etc. The closest he’d get to operations is something like new requirements in hiring or background checks, or new metrics to judge employee/department success, but it’s still the leaders of those units executing it – again, even they don’t get stuck in the grind of operational tasks very often, if at all.

And I’ve seen a new CEO add to the executive team, replace a CEO, add a new CMO at the behest of pissing off a long time VP of Marketing, and add a new CSCO, but I’ve never seen a CEO add staff members below the executive team level – that’s what the executives are for. So I think it’s unlikely that Breslow required any specific people to be hired, or so much as sat in on a single interview if these people did make changes to their staff, even if the directive to do so came from Breslow.

Also I’m not sure what you mean about Sam Kennedy and not being able to hire who they did. Sam Kennedy is responsible for Breslow, in much the same way that Breslow is responsible for the front office executives. From their site, Kennedy: “He oversees all aspects of the club’s operations”, and the press conference addressing the Devers trade was held by Breslow and Kennedy. A press conference where Breslow had to answer whether it was mandated to him by Kennedy. A press conference where Kennedy said:

“In the end, I think it’s pretty clear that we couldn’t find alignment with Raffy, is the truth,” Kennedy said. “We all worked at it over the last several months, going back to the offseason. … We worked at it, we had a different vision for him going forward than he had, and we couldn’t get there. We couldn’t find alignment, and we reached that inflection point and made the decision to make a big move.”

Not only that, but Breslow wasn’t on board with signing Bregman. It was pushed through by Cora and Kennedy, which almost makes it sound like Breslow got thrown under the bus unfairly here. Here nor there, Kennedy is the person at the top, he involved, Breslow is under him, and Kennedy was there in that same role when Bloom was CBO.

That aside, it doesn’t matter, I understand the hierarchy, whether we agree or not doesn’t change much. What I didn’t understand, and was trying to, was the point you made:

The missing piece here is that the Red Sox had a different front office that was under huge pressure to keep one of their homegrown stars after screwing up the last couple. They were willing to do and say all kinds of stuff to keep him.

I think it’s a distraction too, and of course it’s within the Red Sox rights, but it was very specifically the point you made. And my whole question was why does that matter, even if it were true? So whether I agree or concede if it’s true or accurate, the question would remain. Why does THAT matter?

In all honestly, I think I’m further away from understand that point than I was when I first asked it haha. From your last response, it now sounds like we might actually agree, but I’m not sure. Either way, my question has changed, based on Kennedy’s involvement in signing Bregman, which is the moment that any preexisting agreement with Devers became, as Kennedy put, the “inflection point.”

Now my question would be more along the lines of why are we letting the Red Sox pin this on Breslow, it’s an institutional failure, not a Bloom, Breslow, OR Devers failure. Ofc course there is too much information to know everything, but reading that Breslow wasn’t behind Bregman, it sure paints Kennedy and Cora in a questionable light, and I didn’t know I could think less of Cora. And indeed, an earlier today seems to confirm and further explore the institutional failure rather than assigning any individual blame – not hyperlinks so both the article title and URL are visible, since they don’t match:

“The Red Sox front office is fractured, according to report after Rafael Devers trade”

https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/red-sox-front-office-disconnect-craig-breslow-devers-trade/

sgshawMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  dodgerbleu

That article is just pure nonsense. One scout got pissed off because his job got cut. A single disgruntled employee.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  sgshaw

Maybe read the article, mate?

It was one of the scouts who survived the cut, and retained his supervisory position, who said “Thanks, Bres, you fucking stiff.”

Clearly, those consultants were money well-spent by a true culture builder!

Last edited 1 year ago by Cool Lester Smooth
slz
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I think most teams are realistic about most (though not all) of their players’ futures but the players and their agents are not, so you kind of have to play the game of telling the guy what he wants to hear when he’s 26 and then have the conversation when he’s in his 30s about moving off the position. Juan Soto comes to mind as a recent example. David Stearns said he thought he was average in RF after signing him. I dont think David Stearns actually believes that

But the Sox decided to have that conversation at 28 and Devers decided that was enough of a breach to not play along with the game.

Masticating Monkey
1 year ago
Reply to  slz

Hey, that Florian Wirtz transfer doesn’t pay for itself. Gotta find that $150 million somewhere!

Sonny LMember since 2017
1 year ago

I don’t know who that is and I refuse to learn

PhilMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  Sonny L

Is that an Arrested Development reference?

The one is was going to make (and this is incredibly specific) was if someone was hyping up a young Detroit Tigers pitcher, I was going to reply with “I don’t care for Jobe.”

Obviously, I feel mean saying that now he’s injured. Good luck with your recovery, Jackson!

baycommuterMember since 2016
1 year ago

PL needs to do what MLB does in Japan and allow Liverpool to play a regular-season game in Fenway at the start of the season.

edges64Member since 2021
1 year ago

“The combination of a low arm slot and his four-seamer’s movement means that his fastball plays down from its raw velocity.”

I’m sorry, but this is simply not true for Harrison. There’s a reason he uses that pitch 65% of the time and still gets 30% whiffs

edges64Member since 2021
1 year ago
Reply to  Ben Clemens

Gotcha gotcha, I understand this article being a bit more time-sensitive

David Klein
1 year ago

I swear when I got the alert from mlb trade rumors that Devers had been traded to the Giants the thought in my head was I guess there’s another Rafael Devers in baseball? Then I figured I should clean my glasses that’s how shocked I was. This is the second biggest shock trade at least given the timing since the Luka trade in the nba being number one.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago

I dunno. Multiple FG writers said Devers’ contract was untradeable.

But I agree that in order for this year’s team to make the playoffs, they are going to need the kids to step up. This might include Harrison, because pitching injuries seem to happen all the time to all staffs. They had a bunch of guys get hurt or fall apart or both, all season. It can be argued that the SP depth they just acquired was necessary for a playoff run *this* year.

Offense hasn’t been the issue with the 2025 Red Sox–pitching has. They’ve scored the second-most runs in the AL, and given up the fourth-most runs.

And Devers, frankly, came off as a selfish diva when he whined about having to DH and then threw everyone else but himself under the bus after he was asked to play 1B.

I likened this to Nomar for Cabrera and Mientkiewicz a couple hours ago, and I still think it isn’t a horrible comp.

jdbolickMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

They’ve scored the second-most runs in the AL

Devers leads the team with 46 runs and 57 RBI. The next highest is Jarren Duran with 38 in both.

And Devers, frankly, came off as a selfish diva when he whined about having to DH and then threw everyone else but himself under the bus after he was asked to play 1B.

Devers was repeatedly lied to by the front office and the manager regarding the team’s intentions. If they had been honest with him from the beginning then maybe this outcome could have been avoided.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  jdbolick

1) Runs and RBI are team-dependent stats. Wilmer Flores has been an RBI god this year, yet no one is calling him Rafael Devers.
2) Show me how he was lied to. Bloom told him he’d keep the 3B job, but the new front office said no. That’s not lying about anything, not repeatedly, not nothing.

PhilMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

The Red Sox did say publically when they signed Bregman that Devers was still their 3B, and Bregman would play 2B.

I think it was fairly obvious that Devers would be better at 1st, or as a DH – but the management don’t seem very adept at dealing with a guy who is stubborn (probably not unique in that regard), and completely flubbed the communication.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  Phil

Cora did, but I don’t recall the FO saying it. Though it has the feeling of “we want to break the news to Devers ourselves and not through the media”.

dodgerbleu
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

Here are batting runs on Boston this year:

  1. 16.7 – Devers
  2. 13.2 – Bregman
  3. 6.3 – Narvaez
  4. 5.8 – Rob Refsnyder
  5. 4.0 – Romy Gonzalez

The last two are short-side platoon players. The Sox lineup is absolute catshit without Devers.

And Cora is the manager, the one who fills out the lineup card, and would be considered by many a more authoritative statement. And the Sox are the ones that signed Bregman and sent Devers on his way to deal with the media without changing that position, you buffoon. They made sure the media broke to him. And then blamed it on the last GM, even though everyone else, including Cora, was also there, and Cora had just recently confirmed nothing changed.

But let’s crucify Devers for going with nothing is changing because to him, 18-months after he signed a 10-year extension to play 3B for the Red Sox, weeks after his manager confirmed it, he thought that was still the case. What a piece of crap he is.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  dodgerbleu

Your words, not mine.

He has every right to be upset. The situation changed. But he handled it publicly in a petulant diva way. There’s no escaping that.

dodgerbleu
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

No, they weren’t your words. The semantics argument is harder to pull off when your words are just above. But ok, I confess, you did not actually crucify him on a cross, it was a metaphor. But not one you can pretend not to understand the meaning of, or claim was libel or lies or anything.

I was describing your descriptions that you packaged in-between his untradeable contract and the Red Sox were just trying to talk to him directly, (but then he forgot I guess) and didn’t think I’d need to quote them. I digress, you win. Rather than crucify, I should’ve said let’s go stream baseless insults about him on the internet, paint him as unreasonable and absolve the organization of any wrong doing or even mismanagement, and criticize him for being one of the best 5 3B in baseball, and tell fairy tales about the Red Sox offense without him.

Right, he’s going to opt out of $40M per right after missing three months with an injury to the same place he was injured earlier in his career (/eyeroll).

EDIT: Devers was a below-average defensive 3B when he came up, and he still is now. Saying he’s no worse than when he came up is irrelevant to my point.

Offense hasn’t been the issue with the 2025 Red Sox–pitching has. They’ve scored the second-most runs in the AL, and given up the fourth-most runs.

And Devers, frankly, came off as a selfish diva when he whined about having to DH and then threw everyone else but himself under the bus after he was asked to play 1B.

2) Show me how he was lied to. Bloom told him he’d keep the 3B job, but the new front office said no. That’s not lying about anything, not repeatedly, not nothing.

bigpizzamanMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  dodgerbleu

C: Narvaez (above avg bat)
1B: Toro/Romy (above avg)
2B: Campbell/Mayer (remains to be seen but let’s say below avg)
Story (below avg)
Bregman (above avg)
Abreu/Anthony/Refsnyder (above avg)
Rafaela/Duran (avg)
Duran/Anthony/Refsnyder (above avg)
Yoshida/Refsnyder/Abreu/Anthony/Campbell (above avg)

Doesn’t look like catshit to me…and they have $30m to throw around, lots of prospects to trade with, and Jhostnyxon Garcia with a 150 WRC+ at AAA. They’ll be fine.

formerly matt wMember since 2025
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

Part of the FO’s job is to tell Cora not to say that, if they don’t want to stick to it.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago

I go back and forth on this. Cora shouldn’t tell the media BEFORE telling the player. Ever. And Cora is interviewed every day. So it might have been a case of “we know we’re going to have him move to DH but we haven’t had the chance to craft a proper response yet.”

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

As a leader, he needs to be in constant communication with Devers about this

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago

Sure, but things happen. You know how businesses work. This certainly could have been handled better, but I don’t see it as the team poison-pilling Devers prior to the start of the season. I mean, why would they tank his value?

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

I don’t think it’s a poison pill situation so much as incompetence from everyone involved.

Larry bringing Dombrowski in before he retired really papered over how poorly the Sox have been run under Kennedy’s stewardship.

jdbolickMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

1) Runs and RBI are team-dependent stats.

You’re the one who brought up runs scored, so I pointed out that Devers has been more responsible for that this season than anyone else.

2) Show me how he was lied to. 

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/the-red-sox-are-pulling-the-wrong-levers-with-rafael-devers/

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  jdbolick

You’re making my point for me. The link says, as I wrote, that it was the prior FO who made the promise.

Not sure why this is hard.

dodgerbleu
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

Every executive in Boston is the same except Bloom, who had no personal guarantee, it was organizational commitment. This isn’t Jamie Foxx following Al Pacino to a new franchise in Any Given Sunday, name even ONE other example where an MLB star was only at his position because the GM promised him.

Just one.

Then consider Cora, and every other executive that was part of the front office that he agreed with, and had 10-months since Bloom left to tell him if anything changed, were all still there, and in fact last time they did comment, said nothing changed.

Not sure why this is hard.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  dodgerbleu

With Bloom at the very top of the FO hierarchy.

Not sure why you’re ignoring that. Actually I am, because it doesn’t fit your narrative.

dodgerbleu
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

Because he’s not.. Do you read? Sam Kennedy was the President and CEO of the Red Sox. Sam Kennedy is still the President and CEO of the Red Sox.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  dodgerbleu

sadtrombone already addressed this.

Go read that, if you’re looking for someone to “read”.

Or, better yet, learn how to assemble a quality argument and communicate it, and do so without being an immature jackass.

dodgerbleu
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

He did, but not correctly. But I am not addressing him, he isn’t the that said I was ignoring the guy at the top of the FO hierarchy, and that I was ignoring it because it didn’t fit my narrative.

My other reply to you is in moderation, but if you can manage Google, you can do it. It’s not your org chart, it’s not mine, it’s Boston’s. As such, we should look at theirs, so it had Kennedy’s page from the official Red Sox site stating he is responsible for the entire front office. It’s in the Front Office Directory, the only page you’ll find on him, and says:

In addition to leading the Red Sox front office and his expanded involvement with Major League Baseball, Kennedy oversees Fenway Sports Management (FSM) and serves as Chief Executive for the global sports marketing firm.

It had an article from Spring Training that said it was Kennedy and Cora who pushed for Bregman, and Breslow was against it. Just Google the article name, it’s titled “Red Sox pursuing free agent Alex Bregman, but internal divide exists”

And the link from the official MLB site, with the press conference to address the media on the Devers trade, where the only executives were Breslow and Kennedy. Where Breslow was asked off the bat if Kennedy mandated the Devers trade. Where Kennedy confirmed he was involved the whole time and he was the one that determined they weren’t in alignment. It’s titled “Kennedy, Breslow discuss ‘inflection point’ leading to Devers trade”
“Inflection point” was Kennedy’s quote:

“In the end, I think it’s pretty clear that we couldn’t find alignment with Raffy,” said Red Sox president/CEO Sam Kennedy. “We all worked at it over the last several months, going back to the offseason, starting with Alex Cora and Craig and the staff, and then up to me, and all the way up to John Henry.

“We worked at it. We had a different vision for him going forward than he had and we couldn’t get there. We couldn’t find alignment, and we reached that inflection point and made the decision to make a big move.”

So I am the one ignoring the top of the FO hierarchy? Because it fit’s MY narrative?

Yikes brow. Fairy tales are cool, we need variance and different types of stimulation in our lives. But you don’t want to get stuck in one. Come back to us.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  dodgerbleu

Hey now – apparently Craig “Ya Fuckin’ Stiff” Breslow brought in consultants last season to fire a shitload of FO folks…I mean, to “transition to a more efficient organizational structure.”

AlbyMember since 2017
1 year ago
Reply to  jdbolick

He wasn’t lied to from the beginning. He was promised something by an executive who isn’t around anymore.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  Alby

Exactly. This is yet another case of media incitement against the FO, and Sox fans lining up as the usual sheeple instead of using their critical-thinking skills.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

Right.

Because the folks who leaked that Terry Francona was abusing painkillers before they replaced him with Bobby Valentine has earned any benefit of the doubt when it comes to situations like this 😂.

The only reason Breslow got the job is because no one else would take an interview from FSG.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago

They definitely deserve to be questioned. 100%. Who is saying they don’t?

bceagles182
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

The “sheeple” are the dorks who are carrying water for John Henry’s propaganda machine (NESN, the Boston Globe) while the team hemorrhages salary to increase profits.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  bceagles182

They get paid to push propaganda and profit. I get it. Every MLB team is owned by people who value profit far above honesty.

I wouldn’t call Globe Partners and NESN “sheeple” so much as paid to make for FSG, in whatever way FSG believes needs to happen. The sheeple are the people who refuse to see the nuances involved on all sides.

EDIT: I mean, we can and should question the FO’s narratives. The response from Devers was still petulance.

Last edited 1 year ago by drewsylvania
Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

There’s some petulance, sure…but there’s also a consistent pattern of disrespect throughout Kennedy’s tenure as CEO.

Definitely more Werner than Lucchino, himself.

dodgerbleu
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

Have you every signed an employment contract? Or even a services contract? Any contract?

I promise you his contract is executed between him and the Boston Red Sox, a subsidiary of Fenway Sports Group Holdings, LLC, with offices located at 2 Brookline Ave, Boston, MA 02215.

I promise you that Craig Breslow nor Chaim Bloom would do nothing more than be an authorized signatory for the team, if they’re even the ones who sign it, as literally any front office representative can sign it, on behalf of the club. Just like every other contract, for every other player, on every other team.

I promise you that MLB-MLBPA would not let an individual be a guarantor of any obligation in that contract.

I promise there isn’t a single portion of that contract that is transferable or that expires upon Chaim Bloom and the Red Sox separating.

You’re going off the deep end listening to crappy team propaganda, siding with the billionaire deflecting all accountability onto a player that was legally and logically correct, and we’re the sheeple.

This timeline just keeps getting dumber.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  dodgerbleu

And you’re contributing to it by building garbage in your head and pretending it’s what I think.

dodgerbleu
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

Move your goalpost all you want, but you won’t stop crying about how nothing counts because Bloom is no longer there, and discrediting any complaints Devers had… Because Bloom is no longer there.

That is not how agreements work. You’ve never provided a single supporting fact, or even supporting argument, otherwise, yet you’re hysterical all over every article he’s in, bashing him.

But ok, I’m making it all up, hallucinating those replies from you that aren’t really there.

Great debate, you win, just keep twisting and changing your position every time it’s challenged and you don’t want to change the fairy tale in your head.

I know, I know, you don’t even need to say it.

bUt BlOoM! yEaH rIgHt!

Sick burn, sick burn. I give up, there is no overcoming your well thought out and rapidly evolving point that’s based on actual facts and you don’t run from backing up because you totally mean it and you’re not just trying to crap on someone to chase comment upvotes that hold not value in any way whatsoever. Only bitter, deranged, hateful, dishonest little trolls do that.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  dodgerbleu

You’re an intellectual lightweight and everything you wrote proves it.

What did you even mean when you brought up contracts? You never even made that point, nor did you respond to it when I guessed that you meant the Devers-stays-at-third communication.

Instead, you’ve climbed your pile of garbage and chosen to deflect through unwarranted bile.

I mean, in what universe is pointing out that there is nothing in Devers’ contract that says he must stay a 3B “moving the goalposts”?

You’re just making up sht, and doing so while flying off the handle because apparently you can’t keep up.

Thanks for outing yourself as someone not worth having a discussion with. If only it had happened sooner.

Go back to Truth Social, or something.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  dodgerbleu

Yes, I have. You’re bolstering my point, not yours. If it were written into Devers’ contract that he would stay at 3B for (x amount of time), I guarantee his agent goes to the media and says the Red Sox are in breach of contract.

No one has even hinted at this. Not Devers himself, no one. So the clause likely does not exist.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  dodgerbleu

If you want specific language in a contract, you put it in. If you want a verbal to be legally binding, you have it witnessed.

Duh.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

And if you want to attract and retain top talent, it helps to not have your word be notoriously dogshit.

It’s expensive to not be viewed as trustworthy, in both absolute terms and hidden ones, like not being able to get a meeting with James Click or Sam Fuld and having to settle for the Cubs’ #4 guy.

dodgerbleu
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

This is not legally, ethically, or logically true. All verbal contracts in the US are binding, so long as something was offered, accepted, and considered.

But I’ll let your other rants marinate. Arguing with a fool proves there are two..

Last edited 1 year ago by dodgerbleu
AlbyMember since 2017
1 year ago
Reply to  Alby

Go ahead and downvote it, that doesn’t change the facts. This happens at real-world jobs all the time: You’re promised something by a manager who gets sacked. The next manager up is under no obligation to keep the last guy’s promises.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Alby

Another thing that happens at “real-world jobs” is that noted clown-show organizations are unable to attract and retain talented leaders, which is how you end up with Cora and Breslow in their current positions.

They’re basically the New York Giants at this point…but at least tickets will be cheap when I’m over in August!

Brock244
1 year ago

That’s a bit over the top. The redsox front office is very smart and data based. Even cutting edge at some things.

They’re at worst an average FO, but could easily make the case for a good one. Now, PR stuff….

Last edited 1 year ago by Brock244
Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Brock244

The Red Sox front office went through a cull last year after Breslow hired “Sportsology Group” to fire a bunch of people.

PC1970Member since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  Alby

While true, a well run organization would clearly communicate that fact to the employee & tell them that they may change the person’s role.

It’s pretty clear that Boston never did that.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

Did the writers suggest Devers was untradeable? Maybe so but I think my recollection is that it had negative trade value, and I think this deal probably puts it in slight negative territory based on eating Hicks’s deal.

MoMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I don’t recall anyone suggesting Devers was untradeable. Players with big contracts get traded all the time.

formerly matt wMember since 2025
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I remember the specific argument being that Sox fans were mad that Bryce Harper made the back end of the trade value series instead of Devers. Guess it depends on what you’d think Harper would bring back.

jdbolickMember since 2016
1 year ago

Called it:

Nah, he gone. You don’t come back from this type of broken relationship. Devers is hitting his way onto a different team next season.

The Red Sox handled this about as badly as possible and caused a messy divorce that never needed to happen.

opifijiklMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  jdbolick

Agreed 100%. That makes it sting so much worse than it just being a clever way to get out of a contract or way to rebalance a roster.

AlbyMember since 2017
1 year ago

the Red Sox keep getting themselves in positions where they look at their best players and decide they need to get rid of them.

Well put. I used to think Mets fans had the worst case of a good team with dysfunctional management, but it’s gotten to be a close call.

MichaelMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Alby

The mets? In 2025?

David Klein
1 year ago
Reply to  Michael

Yeah I don’t get it the Wilpons have been gone since late 2020 and Cohen finally got Stearns in 2023.

PhilMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  David Klein

I don’t think it is necessarily a comment on the current Mets. The Mets had some very good teams under the Wilpons – they made the World Series in 2015. But reputations can be very hard to shift – the Mets do seem to be well run at the moment, but I think if one of their stars breaks their toe going to the bathroom at night, a lot of people would go, even if for a moment LOLMets – but when it happens to stars on other teams it’s just one of those things.

AlbyMember since 2017
1 year ago
Reply to  Michael

No, over their recent history going back to the Wilpons.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Alby

The Red Sox have been a drama factory for probably a hundred years if not more. This episode was entirely avoidable but it sure seems like it’s got ample company in team history.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

TBF this isn’t *entirely* on Red Sox ownership, Boston fans are hard to please and has a number of bad actors (see Adam Jones incident). And the media has a lot of drama-seeking columnists, but Yawkey and the people he hired were racist and he and his family owned the Red Sox for most of the 20th century. I remember reading an interview with Duquette somewhere about his experiences making the Red Sox into an organization that was less likely to lose lawsuits, it was pretty wild.

hopbittersMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I believe it was December 1919 when things started to go downhill in the drama department.

PhilMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  hopbitters

But it was a boom time for the musical department! (As the legend goes)

MoMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  hopbitters

in the drama department.

Is this a reference Harry Frazee’s Broadway endeavors? Love it!

Ryan
1 year ago

How does Devers have a better ROS projection at DH than he does at 1B with same at bats and ops+? Zips expects him to be so bad at 1B that his defensive value would be greater not on the field at all?

AlbyMember since 2017
1 year ago
Reply to  Ryan

That’s not exactly hard to envision. There are guys you don’t want playing the field if you can help it but have to because of roster construction. Nick Castellanos springs to mind.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Alby

Of course, Devers is a -5 3B, and his biggest issue was throwing.

96mncMember since 2020
1 year ago

Devers should actually be a + 1B with time and work. He’s got the hands for it. I don’t expect that to happen this year but 2026 and forward.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  96mnc

Agreed.

jmb2171Member since 2018
1 year ago
Reply to  Ryan

And then that flips in the following years where his value is, as expected, higher at 1B. Does ZIPS factor in a learning curve where Devers would use the offseason to learn 1B? That seems unlikely, but would explain your observation.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  Ryan

I believe that ZIPS values a DH similarly to an average 1B in terms of defensive value. It basically considers the lack of defense and the DH penalty to offset.

MichaelMember since 2020
1 year ago

Ben clemens you sly dog! I thought i’d be waiting til 10 AM for the FG breakdown

Adam SMember since 2016
1 year ago

Thanks for the write up, though I think you glossed over the most important aspect of the trade which is how good of a hitter Devers really is and thus how tolerable or bad the front end of the contract is.

His wRC+ are 124, 134, and 145 the past 2.5 years. FGDC project 128 for the rest of the year with ZiPS being a bit higher than Steamer.
I know OPS+ isn’t quite the same thing as RC+ but Devers being 50% above average RoS and 40% above next year seems like quite a leap. Is there something about the ballparks that makes him likely to be better in Oracle Park than Fenway? The difference between 30% better than average and 50% better is huge. At 30% above average at DH, the contract is an overpay already this year and just slightly above water next year if he plays 1B.

I don’t like the idea of trading good players, much less your best hitter, if you’re trying to compete. But if Devers is only 2 WAR RoS and is a distraction in the club house, that’s a small loss. And Hicks as a dominant setup guy mitigates that a bit.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  Adam S

With Kyle Harrison also ready to contribute and a 55 prospect.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

The Red Sox disagree that Harrison is ready to contribute…and I highly doubt that he would be a 55 if he was ranked today – his Three-Year ZiPS projection is for 4 WAR total.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago

I imagine the Red Sox think they can improve Kyle Harrison by having him lean on his secondaries more, since that’s what they have many of their pitchers do. But it’s not like it’s totally clear his breaking ball and changeup deserve more time, his statcast page is very mixed on which of his pitches are better. Maybe they can teach him a slightly different breaking ball? But otherwise he’s a #4 or #5 starter.

96mncMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Nailed it. His biggest issue is fastball command and he relies far too much on it considering how scattershot it is. Boston will have him throw his secondaries more to mitigate the importance of his FB command.

RobertMember since 2017
1 year ago
Reply to  96mnc

I think Eno was writing up how, given his arm slot and spin proclivities, he’s going to find it really challenging to develop secondaries that are any good so this will be interesting

96mncMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Robert

In a vacuum the CU and CB don’t jump as great pitches by something like Stuff+. And he probably needs to rework the CB into a sweeper or something. But pared with his FB velo and arm angle there’s enough there for him to be a good MLB 3/4 with better sequencing.

slz
1 year ago
Reply to  Robert

Maybe they plan to move the arm slot

soddingjunkmailMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Maybe they can teach him a slightly different breaking ball? But otherwise he’s a #4 or #5 starter.

This is one of the things that perplexes me about the move. If you’re a team with vast financial resources, why are you trading for lower end talent? I can understand if KC or Cleveland were doing it, they’re looking to fill out a roster and can’t pay market rates for back end starters. Boston absolutely can, so why not use your trade capital to bring in high upside talent that’s further away?

96mncMember since 2020
1 year ago

I suspect no one else offered a better package. Hopefully we’ll hear the truth soon.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago

Where do they disagree? They have five starters who already belong. Having someone be ready is different from actually calling them up (see: Roman Anthony).

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

The non-Crochet members of the Red Sox rotation have combined for 1.7 fWAR and 0.9 RA9-WAR in 289 IP.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago

This isn’t any kind of flex.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

Who’s “flexing,” haha?

The Red Sox, at this moment, absolutely don’t have anyone blocking Harrison.

They clearly don’t think he’s fit for purpose right now.

MoMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  Adam S

Hicks has been a dominant setup guy in the past, but he was always inconsistent. I think there’s a good chance he does not revert back to being a dominant set up guy.

96mncMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Mo

I disagree here. With the sequencing knowledge he’s learned as a SP he should be an absolute dominant multi inning RP now that he won’t have to pace himself as a SP. He’s a far different pitcher sitting 99/100 than he is 96/97.

MoMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  96mnc

He’s a far different pitcher sitting 99/100 than he is 96/97.

This is certainly true, but can he still get to 99/100? And if he does, will he also go back to walking 5 guys/9 innings?

96mncMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Mo

Absolutely on the velo. I’ve seen him do it quite a bit this year. He just can’t maintain it start to start. If you check out his velocity game logs you’ll see quite a few games where he averaged 99 on his sinker. Going in chronological order and rounding:
98
98
96
99
97
94
96
99
97
And that’s as a SP trying to pace himself. Usually he starts out higher and then tapers off as the start goes on.

These last 4 are as a RP:
99
97
97
99

As for the control, I’d expect it to be in the 3 per 9 area, maybe a little better.

compucles
1 year ago
Reply to  96mnc

His career low BB/9% rate is 3.5. Usually, it’s been significantly higher. Why do you expect his command to suddenly be so much better now?

96mncMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  compucles

Working exclusively out of the bullpen (hopefully) going forward with the knowledge he’s gained as a SP should equate to him pounding the zone more frequently.

compucles
1 year ago
Reply to  96mnc

Maybe sequencing knowledge would help, but that still doesn’t fix his biggest issue: his command or lack thereof.

John DiFool2
1 year ago
Reply to  Adam S

This totally ignores his huge jump in plate discipline this year, and how DHing will likely reduce his injury frequency-twice in 3 years now he was beat up during the 2nd halves and fell off significantly.

compucles
1 year ago
Reply to  Adam S

2 wins in what is expected to be a tightly contested wild card race is actually quite a lot.

Mark BradleyMember since 2022
1 year ago

As a Giants fan, Im psyched about this deal. Devers is in the same 25-28 age range as Lee, Ramos, and Adames. Chapman is 32 but seems in better shape than any of them. I hope Verlander can be a decent 5th starter after he gets off the IL this week. Looking forward to going to Oracke this weekend to watch the Devers and the Giants take on the Red Sox. I’ll worry about 2030 if it comes.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Mark Bradley

I agree with you. This is an absolutely perfect deal for the Giants due to the timelines, especially since they didn’t give up any big time prospects for him.

96mncMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Mark Bradley

This move was brilliant by SF. They can’t get elite hitters to take their $ in FA and frankly most FAs aren’t worth the money anyway.

JuuuustAnotherBaseballFanMember since 2018
1 year ago
Reply to  Mark Bradley

I don’t see how any Giants fan isn’t excited given the trinkets that they gave up. Good job, SF. Clean up another team’s mistakes and have a fun run towards the playoffs.

puddleMember since 2017
1 year ago
Reply to  Mark Bradley

I often think one’s initial gut reaction is actually a pretty good indicator of how good/fair a deal or trade is. As a Dodgers fan, my initial reaction was that I hoped the guy who broke the news had his account hacked.

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
1 year ago

I’m somehow feeling like both sides lost this trade, just one more than the other. The Red Sox, well, this is clearly a self-inflicted disaster in all kinds of ways — just to add one that wasn’t mentioned here, the timing. Why did this have to happen now, in mid-June? There’s really no baseball-based explanation for that; it’s what makes it clear that this was driven by the spiraling series of mistakes in managing their relationship with Devers, not a rational plan to make the team better now or in the future. The Giants, too, though, seem like they’re making a pretty big long-term mistake taking on this contract — for a guy who’s currently just as blocked in SF, at any position he’ll play willingly, as he was in Boston. (And for longer!) At least, I don’t envy Bob Melvin the “so, where do you want to play?” conversations he’s about to have.

Brock244
1 year ago

If Eldridge is the guy at 1b, does Devers DH long term? Chapman pretty clearly has 3B.

I think one aspect of this trade that is being glossed over is that a DH that is not an Ohtani/Soto level hitter should not be making ~300mil.

Before this season, Devers was a ~130 wRC+ hitter. His 2022-2024 looks very similar to Wilson Contreras both in terms of results and under the hood metrics. As a 3B, that’s a star. But as a DH? That’s like a ~2.5 WAR player. Is he closer to a 130 wRC+ bat he’s been for career or a 150 wRC+ he’s been this years ?

Last edited 1 year ago by Brock244
slz
1 year ago
Reply to  Brock244

There are not actually as many consistently 130+ wrc bats as you think there are. And not many of them are available. The Giants have tried, and failed, to acquire a number of them. I just checked the leaderboard 2021-2025 min 1500 ABs and the number of guys who check that box is 27. Devers is 17th. The first Giant is Chapman at 72

This offseason their options wouldve been Pete Alonso, for similar lux tax AAV, going into his age 31 season or Kyle Schwarber, entering his age 33. I have no reason to believe either want to play in SF

Willson Contreras is 33 this season

Rafael Devers is 28

Brock244
1 year ago
Reply to  slz

Yeah I understand the need based aspect of it, I don’t think it’s a bad deal for the Giants

Was simply pointing out that people were glossing over that fact that this contract is probably negative in terms of value (believe that’s what Passan said as well). It’s not remotely close to trading Mookie, or a team trading a star in his rookie deal. I think this is being glossed over by Devers hot start, but also the whole point of the contract was that Devers was going to play 3B to give enough defensive value to be a star. W/o that defensive value, he has to maintain a 150 wRC+ or better to be worth the contract

O'KieboomerMember since 2021
1 year ago
Reply to  Brock244

It’s not remotely close to trading Mookie; it’s absolutely worth mentioning in the context of Mookie/Bogaerts of trading away or letting walk rather than paying putative faces of the franchise who were drafted and developed by them. It’s also doing it midseason in playoff contention because your front office burned the bridge in a way as hamfisted as possible.

It’s not just the economics but also the expectations of the Red Sox and the SFG, hence why the latter have been pilloried each of the past offseasons for not spending more despite wanting to. Now it’s the Sox turn (again) to receive the shame, and I don’t think they’ll get off the hook for this for anything less than a WS win. The fanbase is too pampered with titles to accept merely a deep playoff run, anything short of a trophy will raise the question of “what if we still had Devers’ bat?”

96mncMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Brock244

Devers will be a better 1B than Eldridge once he learns the position. Eldridge should be the DH.

Masticating Monkey
1 year ago

I’ll disagree on the Giants’ end. They’ve been desperately trying to get big bats for their lineup, inevitably missing on the top end guys (and I wouldn’t bet on them convincing Kyle Tucker to come to San Francisco), and now, with a lot of pieces coming together (free agent additions at CF, 3B, and SS, plus young guys buttressing that in LF, C, and SP), the team’s big weakness has been at the plate—and it seemed inevitable that would continue going on forward.

So what can you do? Make a deal like this! It’s not the kind of deal that would make sense for a lot of teams, but with a team like the Giants, who had payroll space and a need for just what Devers can offer, why not get him if you can at a reasonable cost?

PhilMember since 2016
1 year ago

I think this deal really makes a lot of sense for the Giants – they have got money to burn, but getting people to take their money has been quite difficult. They’re in playoff contention – in a tough division – and have made their team better this season (and for the next . I don’t think there is a bat you could have traded for who is better than Devers and also available now.

Long term, yeah, it will be ugly when Devers is 35 – but for now, the Giants are better.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  Phil

If only gets ugly when he’s 35, then this is a great deal. The fear is that it gets ugly at 32-33.

Groundout
1 year ago

Agreed. A lot of these takes on Devers’ contract are just splitting hairs. It’s not our money!

San Francisco still probably needs/wants another 2-3 players that it will need to spend $100M+ to sign, and how much Devers is owed should only really matters to a Giants fan insofar as it affects their ability to go out and get them — and it probably isn’t going to matter at all.

The Brewers, for instance, could have made this deal with similar 2025 effects, but they would’ve been done for several years after doing so.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  Groundout

It’s not our money but it’s money that if spent in one place will not be spent in another.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

Exactly – they never would have been able to afford Story and Yoshida if they’d kept Betts!

Same goes for Giolito and Buehler if they’d kept Bogaerts!

96mncMember since 2020
1 year ago

It made sense for SF and it also would have made sense for COL PIT and a number of other small market teams that can’t develop or attract elite hitting talent. Especially Pit if they were serious about actually winning while Skenes is on their roster.

PhilMember since 2016
1 year ago

Actually, I think Bob Melvin’s job here isn’t too bad here. Something along the lines of “hey, we’re absolutely delighted to have you on board, we’re all absolutely stoked. We want you to play DH or 1B long term – we get it if you just want to continue DH’ing for this season, and we’ll discuss a plan to get you comfortable playing 1st soon. Again, we’re so excited that you’re here.”

I think Devers will be fine – as long as the Giants are consistent with their messaging to him, both internal and external.

jdbolickMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  Phil

Yeah, I imagine that Devers will be fine with moving to first base, just not in the middle of the season.

titio1300
1 year ago
Reply to  jdbolick

Potentially for the Giants but I think it’s worth saying that this deal doesn’t happen if the Sox thought he would for them. As a Sox fan I’m biased but Devers has been an absolute crybaby about all this positional stuff.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  titio1300

I think you’ll be surprised by how quickly being treated with respect will resolve Devers’ issues with playing 1B.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago

This comment looks very astute now.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Hard to imagine how he wasn’t similarly inspired by someone as eloquent as Breslow:

“Sportsology is not the decision-making group. They are not evaluating people, we are evaluating people. They’re helping us create the frameworks that allow us to do that and certain benchmarks against which we want to evaluate and how to calibrate the information that’s coming in. But the evaluations are being done by us.”

^Explaining the process that led to their “reorg” which involved firing the guy who found Crawford and Anthony…and convinced Anthony to sign.

PhilMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  titio1300

I have no idea how big a “crybaby” Devers has been – his job is to play baseball really well, and he’s kept up his end of the bargain.

The management haven’t managed this situation well at all – the mixed public messaging doesn’t give me a lot of faith that their private messaging would be any better.

So, yes, maybe Devers should have handled this better… but its also the management’s job to make sure you don’t get to the point where you trade the guy who your team gave an 11 year contract to a few years ago, while he’s got a 148wRC+, and you’re 1/2 a game out of the Wild Card.

jdbolickMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  titio1300

As a Sox fan I’m biased but Devers has been an absolute crybaby about all this positional stuff.

Did you actually play baseball at a competitive level? Learning a new position during the season is incredibly difficult and incredibly rare. For superstar players, it’s almost unheard of. Now add in that Boston repeatedly lied to Devers about what they wanted him to play and all of his grievances with the team are completely understandable.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  jdbolick

Devers is taking grounders at 1B tonight.

MoMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  Phil

I agree – I think Devers will be fine. He didn’t have any history of being difficult before 2025. I think he just doesn’t like Craig Breslow.

dangledangleMember since 2024
1 year ago

Vlad Jr just got $500m.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  dangledangle

I would not want him for $500 mil. Or $400 mil.

PC1970Member since 2024
1 year ago

The other thing is while Devers salary may or may not be an overpay, it really only matters if the Giants use it as a restraint in signing other players.

Now, at some point every team has constraints/limits, but, if SF is 14th in payroll & is comfortable going up to top 5, I don’t see how this is necessarily a bad deal, getting a much needed hitter while the team is good..& really giving little of value from the current team.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  PC1970

This is the key–for a team like the Reds or Brewers, you can make a real argument they should have traded for Devers and assumed this deal. But it would have constrained their ability to do things down the line.

For a team like the Giants, they’re so far away from their upper payroll limit it barely matters. They’re under the luxury tax and this is somewhere in between the #5 and #10 team in terms of resources, in the tier just below the Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox, and Cubs, and on par with a team like the Phillies.

They can do stuff like this without it being a huge drag on their payroll, but only if the ownership doesn’t cry poor. And they probably won’t based on their history.

slz
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Right, and there’s already a blueprint with Devers for aggravating him into making a trade if their ownership decides they dont want to pay him anymore. You’ll probably have to do a little worse than taking back 2.5 years of Jordan Hicks if you pull out of this deal when he’s 32 or 33, but again, 30M for a player like him is not that big of a problem especially with another 5 years of inflation. The Cardinals couldve easily gotten out of Nolan Arenado’s deal now if they wanted to, theyve just chosen not to

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  slz

I don’t know, there are downsides to aggravating your star. And without that there wasn’t much market for him. He only had five teams on his no-trade list and there are warning signs all over the place for him. And the Cardinals wanted salary relief and I suspect they didn’t want to eat enough of his contract to make it happen.

He had 3 years and $74M left on his deal. Obviously way too much, they probably would have had to eat 2/3rds of that. Or take back the equivalent in bad contracts. That might not have been enough savings for them.

Although they might have had a hard time finding a deal anyway. He only had four teams on his approved list aside from the Astros (who he then blocked for some reason, so let’s rule them out). That leaves the Yankees, Dodgers, Padres, and Red Sox.

Red Sox weren’t an option because they signed Bregman. Padres weren’t an option because of Machado, and while Bogaerts isn’t a great defender at shortstop he almost certainly is better than Arenado would be learning how to play it.

The Yankees and Dodgers are both over the tax line and the Dodgers don’t care about infield defense, which is what Arenado provides.

That leaves the Yankees, and LeMahieu has 10 and 5 rights so they can’t send them back as salary ballast.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  PC1970

Yep – the Giants should be over the moon to get Devers for money and a couple flyers.

Especially when they get to dump Jordan Hicks’ deal as well.

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
1 year ago
Reply to  PC1970

Yes, I can see how this argument is persuasive right now — if you think the Giants are suffering from the same kind of “take my money!!!” problem as, like, the Blue Jays were when they threw that pile at Vlad Jr., then this deal makes sense even if Devers isn’t a great fit and/or you don’t see him as a superstar DH. I just think we’ve all seen enough examples where it looked like ownership wasn’t going to cry poverty, only to turn around and use the expensive back end of a deal to cry poverty five years later, to be a little skeptical that this is how it’ll go.

Mark BradleyMember since 2022
1 year ago

It’s Buster Posey who will be having the conversation, and hes a straight shooter, which Devers should appreciate. He wanted to stay at DH in Boston, and that’s where he’ll be in SF. I don’t even think they’ll put him at 3B temporarily, as that would be setting him up to fail and they have two excellent 3B, one who is day-to-day. .

Adam SMember since 2016
1 year ago

I’m with you. I think in two years, fans of both teams are going to hate this trade. Sox fans will still be mad they gave up Devers, while no one they got back has much impact and Hicks is overpaid. Meanwhile Giants fans will wish they had Harrison as a 4th starter and will be upset the team is saddled with a huge contract for 6.5 more years for a good not great player.

PhilMember since 2016
1 year ago

I did like that ZIPs doesn’t projection him for 30 homers in any full season with the Giants. What chance does ZIPs give that he has one opening day as the left fielder?

Last edited 1 year ago by Phil
David Klein
1 year ago
Reply to  Phil

Pretty crazy that no Giants player has hit 30 homers since Bonds 21 years ago.

Mark BradleyMember since 2022
1 year ago
Reply to  David Klein

Bonds had no problem hitting HR in that park (even while some other PED guys did). They’ve moved the fences in a bit since then and Devers is their most powerful LH bat since Bonds and also hits a lot of opposite field HR… no green monster in SFcbut shorter distance and lower wall thsn to RF. So, I think he can do well in SF compared to the other hitters who get robbed there.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Mark Bradley

Devers is one of those weird talents where I don’t know that his batted ball profile is going to be helped or hurt by the stadium much. He hit basically everywhere, including Seattle. And it’s weird because he’s not *actually* the best hitter but he doesn’t rely on any one thing. He hits bombs, sprays the ball to all fields, and takes walks without striking out too much. If a stadium takes something away from him, he gains something else.

TommyfastballMember since 2016
1 year ago

Ben, you say the Sox will be replacing Devers with Romy, but clearly this opens playing time for Roman Anthony to stay when Abreu comes back. I’m guessing that’s pretty obvious and you were kind of selling your point? Romy Gonzales stinks.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  Tommyfastball

And Hamilton.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  Tommyfastball

I think Story might get DFA’d. It’s not clear that he’s any better than Mayer’s rookie projection and I don’t think he’d be a utility player at this point in his career.

nahMember since 2018
1 year ago

This would be more of a fair trade if the Giants hadn’t included any players, instead they sent 4 players all with upside to the Red Sox.

The trade is all downside for the Giants. Since he cannot run or field any position, for Devers to move the needle at all, he has to be one of the best 5 or 10 hitters in baseball after moving from one of the parks that benefits LHBs the most to the one that punishes them the most. Their flexibility, both roster-wise and financially, is now crippled well into the future.

This is the kind of move you’d expect a completely unqualified, inexperienced executive to make. The Giants have felt like they are being run by a fan for the last 6 months. The funny thing is, Posey shouldn’t be making panicky impulsive moves for one dimensional players. He has plenty of job security!

Last edited 1 year ago by nah
Roger McDowell Hot Foot
1 year ago
Reply to  nah

I just read in the SF Standard article that they asked Posey if he was nervous about making big trades because of things in Giants history like dealing away Zack Wheeler for a rental of Carlos Beltran. Posey replied “I love the Wheeler trade!” along with something about bold moves and believing in your guys.

MultiphasicMember since 2024
1 year ago

Yeah most Giants fans think the problem with the Wheeler trade wasn’t giving up Wheeler, it was letting Beltran walk. (Although it turned out to be not THAT much of a problem.) Devers is certainly not walking any time soon.

Masticating Monkey
1 year ago
Reply to  nah

All downside? You don’t think the Giants could desperately use somebody with a 130 or 140 wRC+ in their lineup? They’re trying to eke their way into the playoffs yet just had a stretch of like two weeks without scoring more than four runs. Good luck with that! A hitter like Devers is going to help this specific team immensely.

Also, the park effects for LHH are not that different between Boston and San Francisco; for home runs, we’re talking 22nd versus 26th in the league, according to Savant. Doubles are the main difference, and I’m sure it won’t be as easy for Devers to hit at Oracle, but he’s good enough that it shouldn’t crush him.

These attacks on Posey are really weird! I’ve had my doubts about certain things myself (but mostly little stuff that he’ll probably have to learn from, like not having enough position player depth or relying on someone like Encarnacion) and I was someone who liked Zaidi, but looking at this Giants team right now, it feels about as good as it possibly could be right now considering all the circumstances.

nahMember since 2018
1 year ago

I dont know what we’re seeing differently on the Savant page. The park effects are vastly different between SF and BOS for LHBs for everything except 1Bs. Devers gets no 3B bonus because he cannot run.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  nah

This is a case where the park effects aren’t likely to mess with Devers’ production, as he hits bombs to all fields. Very, very few park-aided or -hindered homers.

nahMember since 2018
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

I do not understand why Devers would be an exception to the park effects that affect everyone else.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  nah

Because power is power.

70+ power plays anywhere.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  nah

And you have to see how the ball consistently jumps off Devers’ bat. It’s uncanny. He very, very rarely makes poor contact. Either he hits it at a high EV (and in the air), or he strikes out.

nahMember since 2018
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

The same exact contact has different outcomes in BOS and SF. This is what the park factors measure.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  nah

That’s very explicitly not what park factors measure.

They do not account for the difference between hitting a weak fly balls down the LF line in Wrigley and hitting the same thing Minute Maid.

They focus on outcomes.

MultiphasicMember since 2024
1 year ago

Yeah, Zaidi was a wizard at maintaining a steady reservoir of surplus value, which worked spectacularly once and then resulted in several years of tepid teams anchored by a transient star.

Adam SMember since 2016
1 year ago

I think “all downside” in the sense that Devers isn’t going to improve his base running or fielding value so the only way to get upside is if he hits better than expected. He’s already a top 20 hitter and he’s at the point where players start to decline, though that’s factored in.

Essentially, what’s the case the Devers is better than expected? He plays above average 1B and sustains 40% above average batting line through 2027?

nahMember since 2018
1 year ago
Reply to  Adam S

This is indeed what I meant. Thanks for being more eloquent than I. The chances of his offense declining immediately are much larger than the chances of any meaningful improvement in his running or fielding. His current 2025 offensive performance is out of line with his track record. The expectation that he has a 130 wRC+ going forward seems pretty optimistic.

Mark BradleyMember since 2022
1 year ago
Reply to  nah

Park effects affect everyone who hits there. What you want is a guy with enough power so they affect him LESS than other hitters. Then you still come out ahead even if his numbers are lower than they would have been in Boston (because none of the other hitters on the home or visiting team are playing in Boston either).

Last edited 1 year ago by Mark Bradley
drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  nah

I like the trade as a Sox fan, but the Giants did fine.

MoMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

As a sox fan, I would happily trade Breslow for Posey.

CC AFCMember since 2016
1 year ago

There’s some whiff here of the Marlins getting out of Giancarlo’s contract at the right time. Dever’s contact rate and bat speed have both backed up the last three years in a row. I’d be concerned about how that’s gonna play out long term.

But as a Yankees fan, I will wholly approve of the Sox giving up every single time. Way to go, lads. Good luck signing an elite free agent this offseason after the way they treated Devers, too.

playing 3rd for bostonMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  CC AFC

Just got swept by those same Red Sox and still running your mouth. Never change, Yankee fans. 😀

CC AFCMember since 2016
1 year ago

Still in first, still attempting to win

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  CC AFC

I think it’s more similar to the Red Sox trading away Adrian Gonzalez a year and a half after signing him long-term. Gonzalez was still a very good player and all things being equal, you’d be fine keeping him and letting play out that contract. But due to other factors and a slight decline from Gonzalez, it made sense to include him in the deal.

sadhulkMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  CC AFC

I thought about Stanton as well but the difference is the Marlins may actually be hamstrung by a bad contract while the Red Sox won their last World Series paying $60 million to Pablo Sandoval, Hanley Ramirez, and Rusney Castillo

Michael K Woods
1 year ago

No fan wants to hear this, but franchises are forever. Championships are for 12 months and fans are for only the length of the competitive window (attendance drops when outside the window). Therefore, choices that bank surplus value while also not moving you out of the competitive window are sweet. The Red Sox are competing. They signed Bregman and traded for Crochet. If you look at the standings, they are good enough to still draw a solid attendance. ➝ pointing ↑ on the franchise

O'KieboomerMember since 2021
1 year ago

Franchises are forever? Tell that to the fans in Oakland, Montreal, soon to be St. Petersburg…no sir, flags fly forever, it’s the pernicious owners that are temporary (although often not temporary enough)

MyBloodyBallantineMember since 2020
1 year ago

Was this written by ChatGPT?

compucles
1 year ago

But this move pretty much HAS moved the Red Sox out of their competitive window for at least 2025 and maybe longer. I suppose they still have a chance, but their playoff odds this year just took a huge nosedive.

Last edited 1 year ago by compucles
HubKidMember since 2020
1 year ago

The Red Sox may have screwy timing but not Ben- awesome timeliness here! I do see this as more win win; the relationship seems like it was toast, and bad clubhouse chemistry seemed like a quite plausible component behind the mediocre May results the Red Sox had. Maybe slightly less plausible after sweeping the Yankees!

sadhulkMember since 2020
1 year ago

You know who Tibbs kind of sounds like to me is Alex Verdugo

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  sadhulk

Him becoming an average corner OF would be great.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

What does that have to do with Alex Verdugo?

sgshawMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  sadhulk

Verdugo is a better fielder, but has much less power. Other than that, they’re identical.

DCE
1 year ago

There is a lot of concern from Boston’s side about how bad this was for the Red Sox playoff hopes, is anyone able to confirm what the impact on the FG playoff odds actually was?

Am I imagining it, or did their odds only drop from 32% to it’s current 30.8%?

One minor quibble – I wouldn’t assume that the DH spot belongs to Refsnyder and Hamilton now. Sox have a surplus of position players (4 playable everyday outfielders and Bregman, Story and Mayer for 2 infield spots) not to mention Yoshida with his projected ROS 125 wRC+. I’d guess the most likely option will be Yoshida

Last edited 1 year ago by DCE
darren
1 year ago
Reply to  DCE

Why would they use Yoshida, Anthony, or Abreu at DH when they could use Hamilton? 🙂

96mncMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  DCE

Yoshida isn’t worth the money but he’ll be fine as a SS platoon DH.

JuuuustAnotherBaseballFanMember since 2018
1 year ago
Reply to  96mnc

… yaaaaay …

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  96mnc

Long side. But he doesn’t really fit on the roster unless someone has to be sent down.

Broken BatMember since 2020
1 year ago

Totally agree, for 2025, the RedSox took a step back from potentially winning division. They still however remain a potential WC team. They also IMO, are setting up one more upcoming trade. Duran, as rumored seems like the most likely. Regardless of that, the Sox basically become the favorites to reunite Bregman with Kyle Tucker a FA next year and beyond. This trade makes sense for both teams. The Giants are going for it here in 2025. The SFG clubhouse has got to on the ceiling. I get why this trade is tied to past; Mookie.it shouldn’t be. This was done for yes a similar, but way different reason. Devers forget he is an employee. RedSox still figure to be in WC hunt, and SFG now has batting order depth better than Dodgers who also have SP issues.

CC AFCMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  Broken Bat

How? How are the Sox the favorites for a guy like Tucker? How are they gonna convince someone like him to go there when they jerked around Devers position then traded him a quarter of the way into his contract? Not to mention they traded their best player in the middle of a playoff race? This is a horrible look for trying to sign a superstar. He’s definitely going to demand a no trade in the deal

PC1970Member since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  CC AFC

Agreed.

In fact, my gut says they will likely end up overpaying Bregman after he opts out of his contract this offseason, partly to save face.

Last edited 1 year ago by PC1970
drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  PC1970

Bregman has a lot more value at Fenway or Minute Maid than he does anywhere else, and I think he knows it.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Broken Bat

I am pretty sure that the last thing this team will do is try and sign another left handed corner outfielder. And I really don’t see why they would trade Duran to do it.

I know they were in on Juan Soto but that was almost certainly a one-off because of his age.

I wouldn’t be surprised if they were in on JP Crawford or Nathaniel Lowe (if he has a walk year like 2024) in a couple of years, but that’s a totally different class of free agent.

Jewish PacheMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I hear what you’re saying about reasons to not sign Tucker, but they HAVE to spend the Devers money. What other avenues do they have to spend only money and acquire a premium bat?

Short term could bring Schwarber back, I guess. I still believe they’ll be in on Tucker for lack of other options, but I agree with where you end up: ultimately they won’t be the ones to sign him

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Jewish Pache

Do they? They’re over the tax line this year, and aside from Bregman (who, if he comes back, probably will not require a higher AAV) they won’t have any huge holes. They’re not going to be in on another outfielder unless they trade multiple ones they have already. I don’t think they’re giving a huge contract to Alonso or Bichette, and they just got out of having a permanent DH when they traded Devers so I’m not sure Schwarber is on tap.

The one area I could see them investing a lot in his pitching. I could see them going after Michael King or Dylan Cease, and they will definitely be in on some short term deals like they did with Giolito and Buehler–maybe Zac Gallen / Zach Eflin or trading to bring back Eduardo Rodriguez.

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Did you really say Eduardo Rodriguez or did your speaking app misunderstand?

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  bosoxforlife

Why not? Did he burn bridges on the way out? I don’t remember that.

He seems like a very reasonable buy-low candidate.

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

There is washed up and then there is WASHED UP!

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  bosoxforlife

His peripherals are fine. Maybe he’s done, his velocity is down, but he doesn’t look anywhere near as done as Buehler did this offseason. Maybe the D-Backs would even take Yoshida back (probably not).

MoMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  Broken Bat

Even if they trade Duran, the sox will still have 3 outfielders: Abreu, Rafaela, and Anthony.

If Bregman and Tucker reunite, it will probably be with a different team.

PhilMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  Broken Bat

Hang on, the Giants have a deeper line up than the Dodgers? I think the Giants have improved their line up with Devers, but the Dodgers is super deep – they can have Tommy Edman, 105wRC+ as their 8th hitter.

Though, wow, Patrick Bailey: a 46 wRC+, but worth nearly 1fWAR because of the superlative defence.

Now, the rotation in San Francisco is in a lot better shape at the moment. But Ohtani is pitching today, Snell and Glasnow are coming back soonish… so in a month the Dodgers rotation may look as deep as the line up. Or, Yamamoto continues his recent control struggles, May gets hurt in a freak accident involving a piece of chewing gum and a door handle, Snell and Glasnow’s return get delayed, Kershaw pitches like his first few starts (or like it’s the playoffs) and the Dodgers are trading for Aaron Civale.

Lanidrac
1 year ago
Reply to  Broken Bat

They really aren’t likely to stay in the Wild Card hunt without Devers.

jason shureMember since 2017
1 year ago

I often wonder one thing, and this case is an extreme example, and maybe y’all have insight. When a club is shopping a player, how much do they really shop, the way say a fantasy owner does? Unlike more straightforward players it seems like different counterparties might have very different takes on Devers and his contract, which would demand a lot of back and forth. Are there really dozens of other GM’s who chatted about this and kept it under their hats? Or are most teams automatically constrained by budget so they are off the table from the jump?

CC AFCMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  jason shure

If you’re the Dallas mavericks, you call one team and offer them a ludicrous deal!

sadhulkMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  jason shure

I think when it’s a smaller commitment they make a lot of calls but it’s a short list of teams that would be interested in taking on an expensive long term defensively limited player midseason. Outside of the Giants, I’d guess the Yankees, Mets, Cubs, Rangers, maybe the Phillies and Angels would give something up to acquire that contract.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago

Think about all of the rumors of teams that supposedly wanted a big bat this summer and was supposedly to open up their wallets for a $400M deal for Vlad Jr.

Were any of them in on this deal? The 20 something hitter who fits with your core over the next five years?

Aside from the Giants, they are definitely one of those teams.

I also think about the Mariners (who have been dying for offense forever) who were never going to be in on a big deal like this and have been so passive. It would have changed the whole situation there.

O'KieboomerMember since 2021
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

None of them were in, because Craig Breslow Nico Harrison’d.

https://x.com/JustBB_Media/status/1934413377519878583

Brock244
1 year ago
Reply to  O'Kieboomer

Idk how true that is, apparently like 5 teams were taking to them, but giants wanted him most

Last edited 1 year ago by Brock244
sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Brock244

Is this a case where they accepted a weaker package back so they could unload more money? That would be unfortunate, but it’s possible based on the fact that the Giants assumed the whole contract with only one bad contract going back the other way.

I know that they’re not trading them to the Yankees for obvious reasons, but aside from the Yankees and Red Sox (for whom Devers is definitely a perfect fit) I would put Devers as a perfect fit for the Mariners, Mets, Astros, Nationals, Twins, and Rangers. And that’s not including teams where he would be a phenomenal fit but where the team might have trouble with his salary (like the Reds or Brewers). But almost all of the teams I listed are freaked out about luxury tax stuff, except the Nationals.

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Nationals aren’t freaked out about the CBT, but they also don’t appear to be interested in spending generally at the moment

Shalesh
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Yes, Red Sox could have taken back Jung Hoo Lee or Wily Adames to offset half of Devers’ cost and gotten a much better return. As it stands, I’d rate the Red Sox as only gotten back an FV50 + FV45 (for Harrison) and 2 FV45’s for Hicks plus FV45 Tibbs and FV40 Bello. And that’s being generous on what Harrison and Hicks would return!

This is a steal for the Giants! 4-win players are rare animals. They should require multiple FV55’s to acquire. I agree that many more teams should have pushed for Devers at this price. Hell, even the bottom-feeder teams could have made this trade to “hold” him for a future trade and more than recoup the value and the salary costs during his holding period.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Shalesh

Jung Hoo Lee is playing great, he’s not going anywhere even though the long term on his contract is scary.

But if I was the Red Sox and the Giants wanted to send back Willy Adames in order to get more and better prospects I would have done that without even thinking twice. The Red Sox desperately need infielders, he is nowhere this bad of a hitter, and he’s one of the best clubhouse guys in MLB today.

And probably they could have gotten any two prospects not named Bryce Eldridge (and maybe even him too) or Josuar De Jesus Gonzalez. They probably could have gotten Carson Whisenhunt (who would be a great fit for him because the Red Sox love secondary pitches) and Joe Whitman if they wanted.

It also would have allayed the PR hit to get Adames on board because they have an immediate need for infielders.

Paulie BeddersMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Then the Giants have a huge hole at SS with nobody anywhere near in the minors. He can’t be this bad moving forward

Dave TMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Devers doesn’t fit well with Astros, who have Alvarez, Walker, and Paredes.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Dave T

Maybe?

Right now Alvarez is hurt and Walker is running a wRC+ of 81, I think they can figure it out.

Walker could very well be the “bad contract” going back, and IMO he would probably do well as well in Fenway as he would at Minute Maid or whatever they are calling it now.

Things will be complicated when Alvarez comes back (but not for a while, he just broke his hand) because they would need an offseason to get Devers ready to play first base and it hopefully would happen before then. So maybe it would be an issue, maybe not.

O'KieboomerMember since 2021
1 year ago
Reply to  Brock244

I really love that Posey made them do it now so he gets to play against the Sox next weekend.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago

In any case this is one of those fair deals in the abstract that, in context, is a terrible deal for the Red Sox and Great for the Giants. Devers can hit anywhere and will continue to do so over the term of most teams with good young cores. Yeah the deal is underwater overall but the deal makes sense for both a team like the Red Sox and Giants. It’s a shame for the Red Sox that they put themselves in this situation with bad management, and Buster Posey deserves a ton of credit for pulling the trigger on a deal that clearly scared other front offices.

Last edited 1 year ago by sadtrombone
sgshawMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

What exactly was the “bad management”? Was it asking Devers to help the team by taking grounders at 1b when Cases ruptured his achilles? Was that bad management or was that a player not putting the team first?

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  sgshaw

Oh man – guessing you justify their handling of Bogaerts by dint of the Padres contract, ignoring the three indefensible decisions leading to that situation?

opifijiklMember since 2024
1 year ago

I liked watching Devers play. Seems like a lot of the Laurila interviews with GM talk about how important it is at the GM level to have good interpersonal skills, and a lot of the work becomes dealing with people. Seems like Breslow needs to work on that.

OgbertMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  opifijikl

If the Netflix doc revealed anything, it’s Breslow being a sub-optimal manager of people.

JimmieFoxxalorianMember since 2020
1 year ago

I understand the trade and why it happened. But good golly do I not like this. I do not like this one bit. Being a Red Sox fan can be really hard sometimes

Old Washington Senators FanMember since 2020
1 year ago

Amen! The 4 other AL East teams are rejoicing….at least until the trade deadline – but, right now, this trade just makes it more likely the BoSox end the season not in the post-season, but in the cellar.

dangledangleMember since 2024
1 year ago

All the hemming about his contract doesn’t make sense with current landscape. Vlad Jr is such a a bad defender that he should be a full time DH but he got paid at the same age Devers was at signing. If Devers can play a competent 1st that’s a huge improvement.

KervinMember since 2020
1 year ago

I hate that the Red Sox seem not to care about making the playoffs – they haven’t been since 2021, and yet they’re not showing much urgency to get back

As a Red Sox fan, what stings for me (besides trading a fan favorite again) is that it seemed like they were showing urgency to get back to the playoffs before this! They signed Bregman and traded for Crochet!

opifijiklMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  Kervin

I think they were looking ahead at what free agents were available next year and thought this was the year to buy. Then again, they gave Bregman an opt out.

MoMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  Kervin

I agree 100%. For all the talk about the last place finishes, the Sox have been about a .500 team recently with some talent but significant holes as well. Those teams at least competed into September.

This is the first time I can remember the sox giving up in June.

JuuuustAnotherBaseballFanMember since 2018
1 year ago
Reply to  Kervin

I bet that was their original plan, to go for the playoffs, until they realized that they botched up the Devers relationship. Then the plans drastically changed and now they look like swindlers.

bs3330aMember since 2019
1 year ago

Unlike the the Mookie trade, I get this one, and yet I still think I hate it more, probably because of the Mookie trade. Talk about an ownership group and front office missing the forest for the trees, at least in terms of winning and providing entertainment.

Jewish PacheMember since 2020
1 year ago

Best summed up as a relatively fair deal in a vacuum (maybe even slight advantage Boston) but in practice, considering these are 2 major markets who should be jumping at the chance to pay a hitter this good and worry about the decline years later… especially considering SF’s inability to get superstars to take their money… this seems like a huge W for the Giants.

If the Red Sox go out and SPEND (Tucker? and trade an outfielder?) there’s plenty of room for this to be a nice move to get Devers off the books. But 1) his bat must actually be replaced and 2) They should obviously just pay Devers AND pay another bat. They’re the Red Sox!

darren
1 year ago

People have been alternately calling the contracts of Bryce Harper, Manny Machado, and Mookie Betts “overpays” off and on for nearly a decade now, and their teams just continue to be excellent. Those teams also continue to be extremely happy to employ their stars – the Padres even gave Machado another “overpay” of an extension.

….

I like their odds quite a bit less now that they’re replacing Devers’ bat with that of Romy Gonzalez or David Hamilton.

I mean, come on. First, who has ever called Betts’s contract an overpay? Second, these guys are sure-fire Hall of Famers. Harper is the worst of them and has two MVPs and 53 career WAR. If the Giants had made the same trade for any of those three guys, nobody would be questioning that they had completely fleeced the Red Sox. Devers is a lot closer to Bogaerts, Turner, or Seager, and even those are comps have some important differences.

And the idea that Gonzalez or especially Hamilton will somehow be replacing Devers in the lineup is ridiculous. It really hurts the credibility of the article.

dangledangleMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

The Red Sox literally said that the Betts contact was an overpay. And that people should believe them because they had won four recent world series and the Dodgers hadn’t (at the time of the extension). Aged like milk

Nasty Nate
1 year ago
Reply to  dangledangle

They literally did? When was this? A team commenting on an extension between some other team and a player would have been memorable news.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  dangledangle

They did not say that. They said that they made the trade to reset the cap. And they did not comment on the Dodgers contract because that would be tampering.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

The difference between Devers and Machado/Harper is that the latter two became plus regulars from when they were 19.

From ages 22-27, Devers put up 24.0 WAR in 3485 PA (4.5 WAR/650)

Harper put up 24.4 WAR in 3394 PA (4.7 WAR/650)

Machado put up 26.5 WAR in 3723 PA (4.6 WAR/650)

That is the caliber of player the Red Sox alienated then salary-dumped.

Last edited 1 year ago by Cool Lester Smooth
darren
1 year ago

Sounds like you’re arguing that Devers is the same caliber player as Harper and Machado. I disagree.

But that aside, the reason their teams are happy with Machado and Harper is that they have produced really well for several years into their contracts. To compare them, having already accomplished this, to Devers, is begging the question. (…I think, maybe I have the wrong fallacy here but I really wanted to try using that one.)

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

I mean, the WAR numbers are what they are – Devers is a true talent 130 wRC+ hitter with playable 3B defense, per Statcast and UZR – that’s really valuable, and comparable to a 125 wRC+ guy with great 3B defense and a 140 wRC+ guy with playable RF defense.

Brock244
1 year ago

Yeah but Devers isn’t playing 3B, he’s a DH, which is a lot less valuable

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Brock244

He’s on a 4-5 win pass as a DH right now, and nothing he’s doing is unsustainable.

I also think that being treated with respect will work wonders for his willingness to play 1B.

Brock244
1 year ago

He’s been a ~130 wRC+ bat his whole career, he’s currently at a ~150 wRC now, but how sustainable is that?

It is likely his bat gets back to ~130 esp with his declining contact rates and bat speed. He is chasing less and walking more, but has been back to career normal chase rates last month or so…

How much WAR is a 130 wRC+ DH? 2-3? That was always the issue w him moving off 3B because his bat is good, but not elite-elite, and now your getting into 2022-2024 Wilson Contreras territory (a very good player, but not a guy you want to give 300mil too)

Last edited 1 year ago by Brock244
darren
1 year ago

It sounds good the way you frame it. But what it adds up to is a a guy who projects to be a 4-WAR player and getting worse. That’s not so great.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

4 Win players are great…and he’s 28!

And he’s made real improvements in his underlying skills this year!

And he has the skillset to be a good defensive 1B!

And the Red Sox got jack shit for him.

It’s been damn funny watching the Sox since Larry was retired.

Brock244
1 year ago

His contact rates and bat speed have been in decline for 3 years… and he’s no longer getting s value from playing 3B… if anything there are warning signs under the hood

Last edited 1 year ago by Brock244
Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Brock244

His Barrel Rate has increased and his Whiff% has decreased in each of the last three years.

He’s also at the second highest SEAGER of his career, after 2023.

Brock244
1 year ago

3 year tend of declining contact rates and bat speed is not good. 76 contact % to 71 to 69 is not good. He also lost 2 mph on bat speed …. He is whiffing less because he is swinging less

It has been covered up by a surprise improvement in o swing % (leading to better walk rates) but that has dipped back to career norms over the last 3-4 weeks

If anything, he’s got more questions now despite the better performance this year

Last edited 1 year ago by Brock244
darren
1 year ago

We disagree on a lot of the other stuff, but I do agree he has the skill set to be a good defensive first basemen. I wish that was where they had moved him initially, with the idea that they would either move Casas to DH or rotate the two between the two positions.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

Especially because Casas is terrible defensively!

Like, they absolutely had the option to say “Raffi – I know we promised you 3B for a few more years, but Bregman’s too good to pass up at this price…and we think you’d be a great defensive 1B. Could you help us out?”

But that would have involved communication and leadership from an organization that has spent the last several years making an aggressive case for Larry Lucchino’s (long overdue) election to Cooperstown.

slz
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

I would rather have Devers on his current contract than Machado on his.

I would rate them as fairly similar hitters, with Machado as the better fielder. They have both have moody reputations

Harper is better and his contract was signed so long ago it’s not as onerous to cancel out his advanced age. But he’s also already moved to 1B, which is kind of splitting hairs with the negative 3B or DH/1B situation Devers is in

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  slz

You’re right about Machado’s deal being worse. He’s quite a bit older and the numbers suggest he’s lost quite a bit on defense.

MoMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

I think it remains to be seen where Devers at bats will go.

After Abreu comes back, he might play every day. Against lefties, Refsnyder plays DH, Toro at 3B, Gonzalez at 1B, and Campbell at 2B. Against righties, maybe Campbell at DH, Hamilton at 2B, Mayer at 3B, and Toro at 1B.

Actually, I don’t know what they’ll do…There seems to be lots of at bats for platoon players and rookies who are still developing.

TKDCMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

My thoughts as well. Heck, the second Machado deal seemed bad to me but I don’t feel like most agreed with that. There were a lot of criticisms of Harper’s potential contract, but that was when he was supposedly going to fly past $400 or $500 million, whereas I think most people thought the contract he ended up with was a little strange (clearly designed with breaking the total contract record in mind) but had upside for the Phillies. The Betts deal reaction was almost universally “why didn’t the Red Sox do that?”

darren
1 year ago

Are the ZIPS WAR projections for the rest of the season a typo? A .285/.379/.509 line in 360ish PA at DH doesn’t sound like it would be worth 3.0 WAR. On Raffy’s page, ZIPS DC has him at .268/.362/.499 in 373 PA for the rest of 2025, resulting in 2.0 WAR.

LesVegetables
1 year ago

Can’t believe anyone is even talking about the return on this trade. You don’t trade a guy owed $250 million because it improves your team. That isn’t at all how trades work.

This happened because Devers asked for this after the Red Sox lied to him in his contract negotiations. He gave up his one shot at free agency when he signed the extension – and the Sox lied to him. So he wanted out.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  LesVegetables

Hot nonsense.

LesVegetables
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

When Devers plays 1B for the Giants – and he will – don’t scratch your head and wonder why. The reason he wouldn’t play 1B for the Sox wasn’t because he didn’t want to, he was doing it out of spite while waiting for the Sox to move him.

Lanidrac
1 year ago
Reply to  LesVegetables

…or, you know, not wanting to learn a brand new position on the fly in the middle of the season.

He may play 1B for the Giants, but it won’t be until next season.

Last edited 1 year ago by Lanidrac
Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

He’s already taking grounders at 1B.

dodgerbleu
1 year ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

From the press conference introducing him:

“He told us, ‘I’ll play wherever you want me to play, I’ll hit wherever you want me to hit,’” said Melvin. “He’s going to DH today, hit in the three-spot. We’re going to work him in and get him some ground balls at first and make sure he’s comfortable before we put him over there. That’s pretty much the way we’re looking at it right now, a little bit of DH, a little bit of first.”

dodgerbleu
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

The Giants press conference introducing Devers to the Media is titled “Devers says he’ll play wherever Giants ask in introductory presser” on the official MLB website.
The very first quote in the article is:

“He told us, ‘I’ll play wherever you want me to play, I’ll hit wherever you want me to hit,’” said Melvin. “He’s going to DH today, hit in the three-spot. We’re going to work him in and get him some ground balls at first and make sure he’s comfortable before we put him over there. That’s pretty much the way we’re looking at it right now, a little bit of DH, a little bit of first.”

Give it a Google. Or keep getting worked up about your fairy tale. Either way. Facts. If you want hot nonsense, you could try to crowd source it by scrolling through the over 30 comments with a bunch of down votes, see what the crowd sees. Just a thought.

Lanidrac
1 year ago
Reply to  LesVegetables

That doesn’t mean the Red Sox had to listen to his trade request to make what was a contending team significantly worse.

They could’ve said that they needed him to play for them now while they’re trying to make the playoffs, and then they’d see what they could do over the next offseason. The player has very little leverage in this kind of situation.

LesVegetables
1 year ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Well the fact that the Sox traded him because of his refusal to play 1B does mean that he had leverage.

jmb2171Member since 2018
1 year ago

One sixth of the team control years of Anthony and Mayer will come this year (or perhaps slightly less, depending on Super 2 status).

Just a minor detail–Super 2 won’t affect years of control and unless one of them wins ROY, they’ll still have 6 years of control after this one. It’s closer to 1/7 of team control years will come this year.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  jmb2171

Good point–it’s even considerably less than 1/7. They both will have been on the roster for about 2/3 of a season out of his 6 2/3 seasons of team control. That’s more like 1/10th of their team control.

dodgerbleu
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

In total service days, but in usable days, it’s about 1/7th of their effective control.

Since they have to round up or down to full seasons. That extra 1/3rd of a season they’re not gettng this year is only available in the event they are sent down for what would come close to a full year of service time, and then they would gain a full 8th year of control, not just the 1/3rd from this year. And I say “not getting this year” for lack of a better way to describe it, because if they used that 1/3, that 7th year isn’t available for them, so they aren’t losing it either..

Sonny LMember since 2017
1 year ago

The Red Sox upstairs baseball men (the ones in quarter zips and those ugly sneaker/shoes that aren’t fooling anyone) could have admitted they were wrong, then solved their 1B hole for 26 and beyond or they could have done this.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  Sonny L

Wait a minute here. Are quarter zips not cool?

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
1 year ago
Reply to  Sonny L

Don’t forget the business backpacks!

wingedbeater
1 year ago

There’s been a lot of “Boone or Cora” managerial discussion these last few days. I’m not sure how one assesses the value of a manager (they both seem roughly fine), but the fact that the Red Sox were able to so alienate their best player (a player that they’re already incredibly committed to, financially) that he had to be traded suggests that there’s something there that’s rotten management-wise.

Deacon DrakeMember since 2017
1 year ago

So the blue chip draft pick here comps closest to Dan Vogelbach?

When Devers was pouting at the beginning of the season, despite his rep, he didn’t have a market. Typically, the receiving team gets best value acquiring now as opposed at the deadline… no idea how long the negotiations were ongoing, but it seems Boston was desperate to unload him.

Definitely not the Juan Soto haul.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  Deacon Drake

A team that is desperate to unload someone doesn’t get four players back and pay none of his salary.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

They’re essentially eating $30m of it by taking Hicks in the deal.

darren
1 year ago

Hicks has no value? Take a look at what backend starters like Williams, Gibson, and Quintana got this past offseason.

Last edited 1 year ago by darren
Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

Hicks has put up -0.1 rWAR over the last two seasons.

darren
1 year ago

I wonder why you’re using rWAR? I mean we’re right here on Fangraphs, why not just use their version of WAR? Oh.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

Sure let’s use an FG version!

Hicks has put up 0.4 RA9-WAR over the last two years.

The Giants defense has prevented -1 Runs Above Average over that span, with Hicks on the mound.

That translates to 0.5 WAR, using a far more valid version of DIPS than a 20 year old model which pretends that pitching from the stretch and the windup are exactly the same, but a pop fly to LF and a pop fly to SS are completely different.

It’s not letting me link to Statcast, but feel free to hop on the OAA leaderboard and filter by pitcher to check for yourself.

Last edited 1 year ago by Cool Lester Smooth
darren
1 year ago

You seem happy to include fWAR in your other posts.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

lolol.

Please show me a comment from the past decade or so wherein I mention FIP-based WAR with anything other than abject disdain.

I do have a spreadsheet to manually adjust FG’s RA9-WAR based on individualized defensive support, but it’s quicker to use rWAR in a pinch, even as I prefer FRV to DRS.

Anyway – I hope you enjoyed Raffy’s announcement at this evening’s presser!

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

Negative trade value for sure. He’s a fun guy to have in the 7th inning spot in your bullpen but he’s got 3.4 career fWAR over 400 innings, he’s hurt (now, but also in general), and he’s owed $12.5M a year for the next two and a half years. Among relievers making real money, Hicks is not a Tanner Scott or Robert Suarez level-reliever, or (if we take 2024 as a guide, since 2025 many elite relievers are getting hit hard) he’s not in the same class as Jeff Hoffman or Raisel Iglesias. If you want to win in the playoffs, you don’t want Hicks to be any more than your third-best reliever.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I agree he has negative trade value. But the comment I responded to said taking him on was like eating $30 mil, implying he has no value as a player. He clearly has some value.

What do you think a setup man of his caliber gets on the open market? I’d guess something like 2/12, which translates into 2.5/15 for the time period he’s signed for. Maybe a little more, maybe a little less, but it’s not zero.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

Let me clarify what I meant, because I think there are two different things going on here.

His actual trade value is probably $25M-$30M underwater because he’s running a 6.47 ERA in a pitcher’s park and he’s hurt.

But I personally think that this whole starter experiment was a mistake from the beginning because he already failed once as a starter and he’s got serious injury concerns, and that if he goes back to the bullpen he’ll probably be more like his career FIP- of 86 as a reliever. Which isn’t lights out but is a top half reliever in baseball over that time period (62nd out of 166).

So I think that about $12M sounds good for someone like that over 2.5 years, and I would have gone higher if I didn’t think he was going to get hurt a lot. But I don’t think that’s his value around the league.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

From 2018-2023, Jordan Hicks put up 2.1 RA9-WAR.

His defense prevented 8 Runs Above Average with him on the mound, over that span.

So we’ve got 1.3 Defense-Adjusted WAR in 243 innings.

We’ve all seen this Joe Kelly colored picture before.

bigpizzamanMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

He has an xERA of 3.86 and a FIP of 3.58 this year. You’re cherry-picking with that “6.47 ERA in a pitcher’s park” when xERA already adjusts for park. He was a league avg starter last year and worth 1.1 WAR as a reliever the year before. ZIPS has him projected for a 3.92 FIP and 4.04 ERA right now (and as a starter). He’s hardly cooked and I expect a looot of teams would be in on him if he were a free agent. Maybe not at his current contract, but he wouldn’t get something all that far off

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Deacon Drake

Tibbs is way more athletic than Vogelbach, more because of Vogelbach than Tibbs. I’d say the closest comp to Tibbs is Seth Smith.

The version of Tibbs where everything works is like Brandon Lowe who plays 1B or the corner outfield instead of 2B. Or Wilyer Abreu, without the defense.

If he strikes out too much he’s probably more like Brandon Marsh or Marcus Thames.

Obviously there are scenarios where he ends up like Jarred Kelennic

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Brandon Marsh is a really good defender!

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago

Yeah okay, Brandon Marsh on offense.

Tibbs can be a league average defender in the corner outfield or first base with enough reps, I don’t think anyone is too worried about that. It’s whether he can to play everyday or if he’s going to be shoved off into a platoon role.

The comps that make sense are guys who (1) have patience and (2) hit the ball hard and in the air a fair amount without (3) elite max EVs. Someone who makes quality contact because they’re waiting for the right pitch to drive, even if they don’t have elite raw juice. And that doesn’t strike out, too, too much. That does describe Vogelbach and Seth Brown at the low end but it also describes Max Muncy and Brandon Lowe. Or if you’re thinking he can only do it against right handed pitching, then Wilyer Abreu, Michael Busch, and Seth Smith.

slz
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I’m pretty unimpressed with Tibbs. He’s repeating High A as a top half first rounder after a disastrous debut and doesnt project with much if any defensive value. Seems like great work by SF to extract value out of him before the rest of the league caught on to him. If he was a 3rd rounder last year no one considers him much of a prospect

Runaway ToasterMember since 2016
1 year ago

I know this is Fangraphs so we’re all about the wins and dollar analysis, but the thing that bugs me so much about this (and Mookie) is that people like to cheer for players!

There are dozens of Devers shirts/jerseys in line of sight at every Sox game I’ve attended. He’s a guy who came up on your team, you’ve watched for a while, and it’s fun to have that. Maybe I’m overly sentimental, but I’d rather win 90 with “our guys” than win 95 with some FA signings and rentals.

From a purely baseball standpoint, I like this move for the Red Sox. But from a fan perspective, I hate it.

darren
1 year ago

The timing is bizarre for sure. If they make this deal a week aqo, when the team was a few games below .500, it would have been a lot more palatable to the public.

MoMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

I wonder if the timing was related to Devers not running out a groundball last week when he might have beat the throw:

https://www.si.com/mlb/alex-cora-appeared-shocked-rafael-devers-decision-stop-running-to-first-red-sox-yankees

It wouldn’t surprise me if this was the last straw for the red sox.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  Mo

I immediately thought of that play too. Cora later said that Devers had been dealing with an injury recently, but that sounded a little fishy given Cora’s reaction to that play. I suspect that play was one of the last straws, one of the others being Devers publicly saying that Breslow needed to learn to do his job.

PhilMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  Mo

So… you’re saying that the final straw was Devers not moving to first quick enough for the Red Sox?

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
1 year ago

As one of the resident Red Sox superfans I am not flabbergasted by this trade. I do know for certain that the Red Sox had a surplus of players and had to make a move to open up the roster for Anthony and Mayer. On last week’s chat with Ben I floated the idea of sending either Rafaela or Abreu to Miami for Alcantara. It has been the conventional wisdom that one of these outfielders was the trade bait, however, Devers is a much bigger fish but the questions about his future value are real, very real. Fenway was perfect for his approach. His all field power played exactly to the dimensions of left field and The Green Monster. The stadium in SF is not suited for this. My mind keeps returning to the first week of the season in which Devers looked completely hopeless at the plate, unable to get the bat on anything. His resurgence took me by surprise as he appeared to be unable to catch up to any and all fastballs. But he did rebound and his absence from the lineup is obvious but the Red Sox aren’t going to only have 8 hitters in their lineup. There is now a place for Duran, Abreu, Rafaela and Anthony in the lineup almost every game and Refsnyder, who is just plain good, will get more AB’s. It will take some time to know whether this is a good deal but my gut says that paying over $30 million a year for a DH is a grotesque overpay and that alone sways me to being optimistic for the Red Sox side of the deal.

JuuuustAnotherBaseballFanMember since 2018
1 year ago
Reply to  bosoxforlife

It will take some time to know whether this is a good deal but my gut says that paying over $30 million a year for a DH is a grotesque overpay and that alone sways me to being optimistic for the Red Sox side of the deal.”

As another resident superfan, I am shocked you have come to this conclusion. Overpay? This is a large market team. It’s not our money so let them overpay all they want, just win games. Refsnyder? Rafaela? Please. Dumping 30+ homers out of the lineup doesn’t inspire much optimism to me, and definitely not for this year.

jdbolickMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  bosoxforlife

I do know for certain that the Red Sox had a surplus of players and had to make a move to open up the roster for Anthony and Mayer. 

Trading Devers doesn’t do that, though. To make long-term room for Anthony, the Red Sox need to move Duran or Abreu, presumably Duran.

 His all field power played exactly to the dimensions of left field and The Green Monster.

That sentence does not even begin to make sense. Fenway plays to extreme pull hitters. It’s actually bad for all field power due to the extreme dimensions in left center and especially right center.

It will take some time to know whether this is a good deal but my gut says that paying over $30 million a year for a DH is a grotesque overpay and that alone sways me to being optimistic for the Red Sox side of the deal.

Devers was worth 16.7 fWAR over the last four seasons.

bceagles182
1 year ago

FSG runs the team like a capitalist asset that is designed to generate profit for the owner. 3rd highest ticket prices in the majors and yet they’re consistently trading away stars to reduce costs. They know that they don’t need to win to draw because Fenway is a museum/tourist attraction.

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
1 year ago
Reply to  bceagles182

I get your point, but capitalism is not a differentiating condition between the 30 franchises in the major leagues. It’s not like the Braves are a 501(c)(3) and the Mariners are a state-owned enterprise. This is just bad management, not any kind of rational profit-seeking.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  bceagles182

Eh, it was insanely empty the day Bloom got fired.

markakis21
1 year ago

No, signing a big contract doesn’t preclude teams from signing other players or putting a winning club on the field. People have been alternately calling the contracts of Bryce HarperManny Machado, and Mookie Betts “overpays” off and on for nearly a decade now, and their teams just continue to be excellent. Those teams also continue to be extremely happy to employ their stars – the Padres even gave Machado another “overpay” of an extension.

But to be clear, the second Machado deal was a horrific, unforced overpay. This article starts off strong, making the arguments based on the inevitable scarcity of top-level talent.

But then it devolves into the usual owner/FO-bashing of “why doesn’t every team spend”, ignoring, once again, the scarcity of top talent to spend on.

Nasty Nate
1 year ago
Reply to  Ben Clemens

Are there any examples of teams that have the “pile of surplus value all stars” but are bad? Except for the real bottom-spending couple of teams, I think this type of team is a myth. If a team was getting great return on multiple efficient signings of $5-15m per year players, they would likely be good.

Nasty Nate
1 year ago
Reply to  Ben Clemens

OK, but the Giants would have been good if their mid-range non-star acquisitions had actually been “surplus value.” E.G. Belt (later deal), Cobb, Wood, Boyd, Haniger.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  Ben Clemens

The Rays are bad? They won 100, 86, 99, and 80 games over the past 4 years, and are in the top wild-card spot at 39-32 now. If that’s bad, what have the Devers-led Red Sox been the past few years?

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Nasty Nate

The 2023 Cardinals

Lanidrac
1 year ago

The 2023 Cardinals were bad because a number of their pitchers declined to where they no longer had surplus value such as Wainwright, Flaherty, Hudson, Woodford, Gallegos, Cabrera, and Pallante (although the latter has rebuilt his surplus value since then).

As for before the Goldschmidt and Arenado trades, they still finished with winning records and so wouldn’t be classified as bad teams.

Last edited 1 year ago by Lanidrac
Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Yes.

When your entire team consists of True Talent 2-3 WAR guys, you lose a lot of margin for error, when it comes to normal variation of performance.

OkraMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  Nasty Nate

I think the issue is that people frame it as a binary decision (hand out huge contracts vs only seek surplus value) when it’s not; and instead you need a blend of both. No one is winning the WS with no surplus value on the team; and superstars on huge contracts also make winning easier.

I think were people error is forgetting that every team has a budget; and a huge overpay means less to spend elsewhere. But spending is not bad and surplus value is not overrated.

Lanidrac
1 year ago
Reply to  Nasty Nate

Perhaps some teams hit hard by injuries like the Braves this year.

Last edited 1 year ago by Lanidrac
Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Ben Clemens

I saw a line here a year or two ago saying that the Cardinals’ problem is that, while Brendan Donovan’s a very good player, all their players are Brendan Donovan types, and that’s just not enough.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago

Which is weird to me, because if you fill a roster full of 2.5-win players, that’s enough, right?

Nasty Nate
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

Yeah, it’s a witty comment but a team full of Donovans would be good. Maybe Burleson would be a more apt example.

slz
1 year ago
Reply to  Nasty Nate

Brendan Donovan has ended up a little too good for that to really stick but if you have a team of Brendan Donovan’s where Brendan Donovan is a high end outcome and then you have average and low end outcomes of 2025 Lars Nootbaar, Burleson, Gorman, Saggese etc then yeah, it actually is a problem

Compare that to the team leading their division and PCA hitting a high end outcome is providing a lot more value than Donovan. They got Tucker, Seiya is still producing and then you have their Donovan’s in Happ/Swanson/Hoerner. They fixed the problem that the Cards still kind of havent

Lanidrac
1 year ago
Reply to  slz

Yet the Cardinals still have a winning record and were very close to a playoff spot before their bad week last week. They might very well wind up making the playoffs this year without a single 4 WAR player on the roster save for perhaps Donovan himself. However, almost the entire starting lineup and starting rotation has a reasonable chance to end up as 3+ WAR players (at least by bWAR for the pitchers).

formerly matt wMember since 2025
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

Was coming down here to make a silly comment about an aside, and this makes it almost on-topic: A team of 26 players that actually produced 2 WAR each would be a playoff team. With a productive catcher tandem, a few excellent platoons, and by far the best bullpen in history presumably soaking up a lot of innings behind openers and/or a six-man rotation, and solid production everywhere else. (But we know Ben meant a team of 2-WAR talents irrespective of playing time!)

Last edited 1 year ago by formerly matt w
darren
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

It’s probably enough but it’s really hard to be right about 9 guys being 2.5 WAR players in the lineup, and even harder to be right about 5 starters.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

Yeah a lineup filled with 115-125 wRC+ type players who can play almost any position would be awesome, that would be probably the third best lineup in MLB behind LAD and NYY. He has a career OBP of .367, that’s like the 2007 New York Yankees with Jeter, A-Rod, Posada, Bobby Abreu, Hideki Matsui, and Cano. The innings would never end.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Damon, Mientkiewicz and Giambi were all around .350, too!

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
1 year ago
Reply to  Ben Clemens

Is your position “throw out surplus value for stars” or is it “the $/WAR scale is more non-linear at the top end than people think”? I feel like the latter (which many people here agree on) encompasses this point without literally saying it doesn’t matter, at all, whether you pay a single player $300M or $700M or the entire GDP of France.

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
1 year ago
Reply to  Ben Clemens

I think this is basically where we all are, then! Nobody sane really thinks the superstars’ contracts can be evaluated on the same linear scale as the 1-2 WAR guys, or that the same contract for a given superstar would make sense for all 30 teams every year.

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
1 year ago

Putting a roster together is so much more than projected value or whether this star is the right fit. The Red Sox have found a top level catcher at the bargain basement rack. Who projected that? Abraham Toro and Romy Gonzalez have delivered in high leverage situations consistently, just like was predicted. Baseball is superior to other sports because the opportunity to surprise is not restricted to 5 players dominating playing time or a couple of so-called skill position players being the only players with a chance to score. There are 26 players and assembling the right mix is as much an art as a science.

lavarnway
1 year ago

Devers is a diva with an underwater contract. This is a lose-lose deal lol: Red Sox lost a great hitter and the Giants gained a DH with a bad contract. Good luck to them both!

JuuuustAnotherBaseballFanMember since 2018
1 year ago

This trade is so demoralizing for some of us who were cautiously optimistic that the Sox might put together a playoff run this year. Devers was the one true rock in the lineup over the past few seasons, and now I just don’t want to follow the team anymore this year. I feel like it was all just one big bait-and-switch. Going forward I bet it’s just going to be a bunch of propaganda about ‘wait until next year’ that, like previous last place finish years, will probably be a let down again.

Last edited 1 year ago by JuuuustAnotherBaseballFan
dodgerbleu
1 year ago

If a bunch of disheartened fans did indeed stop following them this year, they would be much less likely to bait-and-switch in the future.

But they probably think, like I do, that Red Sox fans are always going to be among the absolute most loyal in the game, and they can afford a few jerk moves like Mookie and this that a Pirates or Reds couldn’t get away with..

Which is some ‘thank you’ for the unwavering loyalty all these years!

MustBunique
1 year ago

Just called in to cancel my NESN360 sub, told them this trade is exactly why. Encourage you to do the same.

Mitchell MooreMember since 2020
1 year ago

What a narrative arc the Sox have written for themselves – from everybody’s darling on opening day to everybody’s punching bag before the All Star Game.

OkraMember since 2016
1 year ago

This is such a huge, fun, unexpected trade. My thoughts:

*It seems to be in vogue to trash the Red Sox for this deal, but it’s possible for two things to be true at once … that they did a comically horrible job managing a relationship with their best player and they came out ahead in this trade.

*Devers has the 10th lowest contact rate of all qualified hitters this year. It’s also the second consecutive year of a significant decrease. He can still make it work because he takes walks and has power, but he can’t afford to let his contact rate slip any further as he ages. Kind of a low margin for error (for these $) since he’ll provide nothing on defense or on the bases.

*Are the Red Sox truly ‘giving up’ this year? Everyone agreed they had too many position players before this trade. This allows Duran/Rafaela/Abreu/Anthony to all play and share OF/DH along with Yoshida DHing when he’s ready. And btw, Yoshida projects for 115 wRC+ ROS vs 130 for Devers. And that matches both of their career numbers. And don’t forget Kyle Harrison. He may never develop into his starter potential, but I have no doubts he can be a high impact late inning reliever this year. Teams pay a lot for good late inning arms like this at the deadline.

*Ben Clemons has commented that Devers wasn’t close to making the top 50 trade value list and industry sources didn’t like the contract. I’m thrilled to get 3 real prospects (including Harrison here) for him if I’m the Sox.

*Agree that pay for superstars is not linear (and consolidating WAR into 1 player is valuable), but everyone except the Dodgers has a budget. So overpaying a guy like Devers is less $ to spend elsewhere. Devers is just not one of the maybe two dozen guys in the league i’d be fine overpaying just to get him on my team.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  Okra

*Agree that pay for superstars is not linear (and consolidating WAR into 1 player is valuable), but everyone except the Dodgers has a budget. So overpaying a guy like Devers is less $ to spend elsewhere. Devers is just not one of the maybe two dozen guys in the league i’d be fine overpaying just to get him on my team.

It’s also true that, even if you consider Devers a superstar now, he will not be one for most of the rest of his contract. By the ZIPS projections above, for example, he’s going to be something like a star for 2025-2027, a good player for 2028-2029, and average or worse for the final four years.

JuuuustAnotherBaseballFanMember since 2018
1 year ago
Reply to  Okra

Unless Devers hits only 5 more homers the rest of the year and is injured often for the rest of his contract, I don’t see how the Sox come ahead in this deal. They’ll either need to spend all that money they have now gotten back on a new big bat that rivals Devers’ output, or Harrison will have to have a 5+ year career throwing sub-3 baseball at 6+ innings per outing. I don’t like the odds.

OkraMember since 2016
1 year ago

Devers projects for ~16 WAR the next 5 years (doesn’t project well after that). Lets say Harrison is a 1 WAR/yr reliever (that’s 5 WAR) and the two prospects net you another 3 WAR between them over the next 5 years. That’s 8 WAR right there and I think a very light and achievable scenario. You then have $250M to go find 8 WAR. That’s pretty easy. Not exactly what I would do – but could be something like resigning Bregman for 5/200 + a stud RP for 3/50. As long they spend the Devers savings it’s a net good deal (easily).

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  Okra

In that scenario you’re losing a bit of concentrated WAR in Devers and getting it back in 1-WAR or less players. So even though the WAR totals match up, it’s not looking great.

There are, however, plenty of other ways this works out well for Boston, even if Devers reaches the ~22 WAR he’s projected for above (I’m skeptical). Harrison turns into the cost-controlled mid-rotation started he’s currently projected as and that’s about 12 WAR over the next 5 years for $20 mil. Tibbs grows into a platoon outfielder, accumulating 6-8 WAR over 6 seasons for about $10 mil. Bello busts and Hicks contributes a a couple WAR as a reliever for his $30 mil.

That’s about 20 WAR for $60 mil, including some valuable contributors. The other $190 mil can go toward a larger contract for a key contributor.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

ZiPS projected Harrison for 9 WAR from 25-29 entering this season…and I doubt a quarter season getting smacked around in Oracle, followed by a demotion, has improved his outlook.

But hey, at least we’re giving the guy who turned Chris Sale and $17m into Vaughn Grissom the sweet, sweet gift of payroll flexibility!

Last edited 1 year ago by Cool Lester Smooth
Brock244
1 year ago
Reply to  Okra

To be fair, I think a lot of the outrage is more due to sentimental reasons over value-based ones.

A lot of Sox fans are understandably hurt their favorite player got traded while under long term control

That said, your correct in that from a pure data driven perspective the trade is not bad. Passan tweeted the baseball world sees the contract as negative value, and my guess is the giants were the only ones willing to take it on + send back value

It makes sense for the giants because they need a bat, but given that Breslow wanted to move Devers off 3B, I honestly wonder if they quietly wanted to trade him even before all the drama. Reality is this contract really only makes sense if he’s a 3B. A 130 wRC+ 3B is a lot diff than that bat at 1b/dh

Last edited 1 year ago by Brock244
dodgerbleu
1 year ago
Reply to  Okra

everyone except the Dodgers has a budget

Not the Mets, they’re the only team this year – maybe ever – looking at a real, true, honest to goodness loss, and not one claimed for a business unit while other units are running big profits.

The Diamondbacks and Padres are both spending a higher percentage of their total revenue on payroll this year than the Dodgers. The Diamondbacks by a lot. The Dodgers are bad because they have a lot more revenue to use. But they’re projected to be more profitable than 8 other teams this year. They don’t have a budget, but they do have stockholders, which also means they have to turn a profit, so the money is only theoretically unlimited in that they can spend more than they need to, but technically they have a ceiling at some point.

It’s what makes the Mets so unique in actually losing money, which in terms of a ceiling, they removed the entire roof. That and having new tax level named after you. The Cohen tax is the ultimate flex. Anyone frustrated by the Dodgers spending should be thankful that fate didn’t pair Friedman and Cohen, bc I don’t think we’re ready for what that could’ve looked like.

frankenspock
1 year ago

The apologists are already out in force on other sites. The Athletic clutched pearls today over the onerous weight of Devers contract, completely ignoring what Ben lays out above: if he’s good during the first half of his remaining years, the sunk cost won’t matter at all especially with salary inflation over the next half decade (even a Devers in decline may very well be worth his contract by the time the 2030s roll around.)

JuuuustAnotherBaseballFanMember since 2018
1 year ago
Reply to  frankenspock

It’s gross. People focusing on money when the owners are loaded. Giants want to win, contract be damned.

nahMember since 2018
1 year ago

There are on-field reasons not to like this trade. Somehow doesn’t give people pause that the best projection system available on this site has Devers as the 119th most valuable position player for the rest of the season. Strange that on a “sabermetric” site, the only skill people seem to care about is hitting skill, and even then, park factors are totally dismissed in his case.

Brock244
1 year ago
Reply to  frankenspock

it’s interesting how the narrative on these things change

~5 years ago, surplus value was all the rage. Being smart, and not overpaying was the move. Fans would rather get a solid player on a great contract than a star on a bloated one

Recently the hype is all about not being cheap, paying stars, and not caring about contracts

soddingjunkmailMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  Brock244

Honestly I think it’s both.

It’s a recognition that stars are such a scarce and difficult to acquire asset that you have to break the model for them and take the opportunities to acquire them when they arrive.

But for lesser players? Yeah, you need to let the Josh Naylor’s of the world go when they start to get expensive – if you’re not efficient in this tier their salaries will hamstring you.

Brock244
1 year ago

I get your point but like, are we sure Devers at ~300mil is better than Naylor at ~100mil?

I think the idea applies to the truly game-changing guys like Ohtani, Judge and Soto but gets a bit more complicated for guys like Devers, Bogaerts, Adames etc

Last edited 1 year ago by Brock244
HappyFunBallMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  Brock244

Depends what you do with the $200M difference.

sgshawMember since 2024
1 year ago

You missed the point entirely. Imagine this scenario.

FG to Ben: Eric is hurt and we need you to finish up the remaining Prospect reports. We’ll give you help, but we need you to take point on this.

Ben to FG: WTF? I can’t do this.

Ben to Twitter: FG needs to do its job and not expect me to do it for them.

FG to Ben: We’ve just sent you to ESPN for Kylie McDaniels assistant.

This is what happened to Devers.

PhilMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  sgshaw

That isn’t really what happened though.

FanGraphs signs Grant Brisbee. Dave Appleman writes a post titled “Ben will still write about 5 things he liked or didn’t like this week.”

One week later, Meg says on Effectively Wild that actually Grant is going to write about Jake Burger once a week in his “five things Grant found mildly diverting this week”. Ben is understandably annoyed about this, maybe says something he shouldn’t on twitter, but gets used to his new role. He’s told the type of articles he’ll write this year – and that he categorically won’t write any prospect articles. Dave and Meg assure him that this season, he won’t be writing any prospect lists. Ben gets to it, has a shocker of a first article, but then is producing quality articles – though his overall value to FanGraphs is a bit less, as Grant is producing the weekly fun round up. That aside, Ben is really knocking them out of the park.

Then Eric sees one LF prospect with 70 grade raw power but a 20 hit tool too many and is unavailable. Dave emails Ben to say “oh, yeah, actually we want you to write about prospects now. Don’t worry that you’ve never done that before, it’ll be fine. You can learn on the job.”

I think we’d all understand Ben being pretty pissed, and frustrated. Maybe he spouts off on Twitter – after all, FanGraphs have hired a guy to do the exact same job he’s been doing, then moved him to write different types of articles while also making promises in public that they repeatedly break. Maybe you’d still be going “c’mon, you’re a writer, write!” – but I’d also be questioning Dave and Meg for messing Ben around, and saying one thing while then doing another. Maybe Ben wasn’t always the most professional… but neither were Dave and Meg – and I’d expect the people with the fancy managerial job titles to actually behave with the competence and professionalism that their job title suggests.

Last edited 1 year ago by Phil
compucles
1 year ago

Actually, 26 2-WAR players would be a great team. Theoretically, they’d win 100 games, and even if you consider that to be too much compared to reality, it should still be a 90+ win playoff team.

The issue is that it’s also impossible for a real team, as a team’s bench players can’t possibly accrue that much WAR and all remain bench players, and if you promote them to starters, then the guys that get demoted in return should no longer get to 2 WAR. Even with a near-perfect set of platoons in use, the righties in those platoons wouldn’t get enough playing time for 2 WAR, or they wouldn’t be platooned all season in the first place. Most notably, an 8-man bullpen full of 2 WAR players would easily be the best bullpen in MLB history.

compucles
1 year ago

Jordan Hicks was never dominant. He was very good at times, but his lack of control has always held him back from reaching his potential.

Western Metal SupplyMember since 2021
1 year ago

Liverpool buying Florian Wirtz (130M) has forced Breslow to save money… lol

sgshawMember since 2024
1 year ago

It’s hard to know if you are serious, but RS fans love to blame Liverpool for taking all the money and LFC fans love to claim the reciprocal. The fact is that FSG expect all of its assets to run sustainably. They aren’t backed by some Sovereign Wealth Fund with unlimited resources.

Last edited 1 year ago by sgshaw
Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  sgshaw

The other fact is that Sam Kennedy has yet to make a successful hire in the 9 years since Larry was pushed out…I mean, “agreed to retire.”

Western Metal SupplyMember since 2021
1 year ago
Reply to  sgshaw

Was a joke. Lol… But Liverpool is definitely splashing the cash. Wirtz, Kerkez, Frimpong and Isaak possibly? They are expected to sell some current players to recoup transfer expenses though. They’ve never really spent above their means in the FSG era anyway.

Scott MelvinMember since 2022
1 year ago

Excellent read. Thank you

BradleyZimmernsBizarreHitsMember since 2025
1 year ago

The difference between present and future value is exactly why I actually think the Giants win. Yes, the deal will PROBABLY be underwater on the back end, but there’s no guarantees on anything. More importantly, they see a window, a core of players in their prime they’ve gone out and got to complement their young core (they’re 13th youngest in baseball still, might’ve dropped a couple swaps for swapping Harrison for Devers).

The present is that they have great playoff odds, are on the Dodgers’ heels, and had a glaring need they filled without hampering their present or long term future. This is a no brainer for any team that’s contending…which should include the Red Sox

carterMember since 2020
1 year ago

Deleted, misread

Last edited 1 year ago by carter
claxon2290Member since 2022
1 year ago

This is why Breslow no longer works for the Cubs.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  claxon2290

Ah, that’s not fair!

Breslow no longer works for the Cubs because there wasn’t a single qualified candidate willing to give Sam Kennedy the time of day.

shoewizardMember since 2016
1 year ago

I wonder why the value pages here at FG have pegged the $ per WAR at 8M every year since 2015. It hasn’t changed, or increased since 2015

Brock244
1 year ago

Drama aside, I wonder if the redsox were worried about Devers underlying performance

Devers contact rate last few years from 23-25:
76%, 71%, 69%

Zone contact:
79%, 75%, 72%

Bat speed: 73.4 mph, 72.5 mph, 71.7 mph

Now, he is having his best season likely due to discipline ( 30% o swing to 25% o swing)

So he has shown better plate discipline but also declining contact rates and bat speed. Should be interesting how he settles into, but im not sure I buy his hot start this year

Last edited 1 year ago by Brock244
OkraMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  Brock244

This. Everyone is so caught up in the interpersonal drama aspect of all this, but I would never give this 1B/DH profile a $250M contract. Which is essentially what SF just did.

Brock244
1 year ago
Reply to  Okra

It’s a fine contract for SF, however it’s not a contract that is going to make/break your franchise.

Many teams probably wouldn’t touch it. Some would. The redsox probably didn’t love it, and w the drama involved, probably felt fine moving on

AlbyMember since 2017
1 year ago

I think analyzing this as a baseball trade misses the point from Boston ownership’s end. From their perspective this is a simple alpha-male showdown, and they weren’t going to let Devers win. If they let him dictate where he plays it leads to a breakdown of authority and soon you have dogs and cats living together, etc.

I find it interesting that Devers told SF “Sure, I’ll play first base.” Makes me wonder if there wasn’t some kind of bad blood predating the Bregman signing and position shift.

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  Alby

I mean … If I’m Devers I’m going to agree to play 1B in SF whether I really want to or not, just to stick my thumb in BOS’s eye

dodgerbleu
1 year ago
Reply to  HappyFunBall

Links are getting moderated, but the Boston Globe was all over jamming that thumb in eyes all over the front office with their article earlier today: “Rafael Devers will play first base for the Giants, and other takeaways from his introductory press conference”
Even the official MLB site at least rubbed his thumb in their eye, if not jam. It’s called “Devers says he’ll play wherever Giants ask in introductory presser“, and the very first quote is:

“He told us, ‘I’ll play wherever you want me to play, I’ll hit wherever you want me to hit,’” said Melvin. “He’s going to DH today, hit in the three-spot. We’re going to work him in and get him some ground balls at first and make sure he’s comfortable before we put him over there. That’s pretty much the way we’re looking at it right now, a little bit of DH, a little bit of first.”

Still, something tells me the Boston Globe article was a more significant shot across the bow. Either way, that FO needs to get some safety goggles, because it’s thumb jamming season in Boston. I hope he’s still able to use his thumb to grip a bat after all the jamming going on lol.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Alby

Yes, Boston’s leadership team is a clown show, where the closest thing to a qualified adult in the room is a manager with a .504 winning percentage when his hitters don’t know which pitch is coming.

That was Davy’s point a month ago…and it definitely informs the breakdown on OverTheMonster, which essentially boils down to “I can’t blame Raffy for refusing to take any more shit from these morons.”

Last edited 1 year ago by Cool Lester Smooth
AlbyMember since 2017
1 year ago

I understand Raffy’s position, too, and I think he’s probably satisfied with this outcome. He gets his money and doesn’t have to deal with those people anymore.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Alby

Yeah, Cora’s sweaty WEEI about how he TOTALLY did his job and this was NOTHING like the Vazquez trade in terms of clubhouse reaction was pretty amusing.

Not only because passive-aggressively trashing people on the way out while refusing any accountability is par for the course for this leadership group, but because the team’s reaction to trading their best hitter for a bucket of balls while trying to climb back into the playoff race was “Ah, good for Raffy.”

Brock244
1 year ago

To be fair, a lot of players in the clubhouse didn’t seem to mind the trade…

A lot of comments about “being willing to play anywhere” going around by multiple players

I think that is an aspect of this trade that is being entirely missed

Last edited 1 year ago by Brock244
Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago

Aaaaaaaaaand Raffy’s taking grounders at 1B as we speak.

It’s almost like this entire thing was only ever a function of FSG’s comprehensive incompetence at every level of leadership.

Last edited 1 year ago by Cool Lester Smooth
docgooden85Member since 2018
1 year ago

Thanks to Sam “Who???” Kennedy and Craig “Word Salad” Breslow, I now understand the real issue here was: Alignment! Well that certainly changes my opinion, and I agree the Red Sox owners are definitely trying to win. I am not under duress…

raregokusMember since 2022
1 year ago

Several days late and definitely not the main point, but I find it a little strange that Eric doesn’t share the byline on some of these trade articles. I get that a lot of the time it’s just regurgitating from the prospect lists but he usually also provides a bunch of new useful info as well (eg updated report, roster fit implications, or insight into why a specific org might have gone after a specific guy). I’m sure it’s been talked about behind the scenes but his sections on these trades are always great and I hope the guy is getting his due.