Jacob deGrom, Cooperstown, and the Abstraction of Greatness

Jerome Miron-Imagn Images

I’m a big believer in the value of WAR as a statistic. Like any summary stat, WAR is notably imperfect, with its nods to pragmatism, compromises made on philosophical grounds, and the necessary inclusion of many components that are just damn difficult to quantify even if we have a basis to think they’re important. Still, like all good models, even if WAR isn’t right, it can be useful. It gives us a broad estimate of a player’s overall contribution to winning baseball games, and almost certainly provides a far better conception of which individual actions lead to wins than generally existed, say, 50 years ago. But when we’re talking about whether a player is a Hall of Famer, a more malleable concept than what wins the most games, is WAR the right measure to look at? When I think about this question, four people instantly come to mind: Jacob deGrom, Miguel Cabrera, Jack Morris, and Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart.

Since FanGraphs is a website dedicated to baseball, we’ll start by talking about Mozart. Even people who don’t really listen to classical music, and thus couldn’t tell Gustav Mahler from Rick Mahler, would almost certainly count Mozart among the greatest composers of all time. Why? Well, the first part is obvious: because of his body of work as a whole. But what aspects of that work make him great? I’d submit that it’s the quality of his best compositions, rather than the massive volume of work he produced, that pushes him ahead of his peers.

Mozart is a legend because of his greatest works, such as his last three symphonies, his late 1780s/early 1790s run of operas, and the latter half of his piano concertos — and I could go on! But he also wrote a lot of stuff that just isn’t that good. He was a musical prodigy, but almost all of his early work is interesting because he was very young when he wrote it, not because of its own merits. Composers have always had to pay the bills, and Mozart wrote a huge amount of what was more or less intended to be pleasant background music, no more compelling than the peppy ukulele and xylophone music that seemed to be in every Kickstarter video in 2017. If the hundreds of examples of such work were to simply blink out of existence because someone got a hold of the Infinity Gauntlet, it would change nothing about Mozart’s greatness. Those compositions had value to Mozart in that they enabled him to write the good stuff that is worth remembering, but he’s great because of his peak.

That brings me to Miguel Cabrera. Pretty much every baseball fan was excited to see him reach the undeniably cool career milestones of 3,000 hits and 500 home runs, including me. Cabrera was an all-time great, but I’d argue that his greatness had almost nothing to do with getting 3,000 hits or 500 homers. Indeed, much of what made Cabrera special was accomplished before the 2017 season, a point at which he had yet to reach either milestone. Cabrera was basically just as amazing with “only” 2,000 hits and 400 homers, and the final runs to the 3,000 and 500 marks were a slog, coming when he wasn’t even an average major leaguer anymore.

The same thing applies to Jack Morris, albeit in reverse. He had a long, long career, and almost made the Hall of Fame via the BBWAA ballot, ultimately being inducted by the Eras Committee. But aside from his spectacular performance in Game 7 of the 1991 World Series, Morris was never really a pitcher who dominated opposing teams; he finished with a 3.90 career ERA in an era when a 4.10 ERA would have been league average. Using Baseball Reference’s WAR (you’ll see why in a minute), Morris ranks 149th all-time among pitchers. But using wins above average, or WAA (FanGraphs doesn’t publish WAA, hence the use of Baseball Reference, and Baseball Reference WAR), he ranks just 398th, behind pitchers such as Jarrod Washburn, Danny Duffy, and Mike Clevinger. Paul Skenes already has more career WAA than Morris. WAR exists because we all accept that average players are pretty valuable to teams, and even below-average players can help push a team toward their ultimate goal. In an exercise such as determining who gets to punch his ticket to Cooperstown, however, I don’t think that mediocrity has much value. Washing your hands after going to the bathroom or touching raw chicken is basic hygiene, but I don’t think it should count toward your Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine.

Naturally, I was going to get to deGrom, since his name is in the title of this piece. One reason I find his Hall of Fame case interesting is that it will tell us a lot about how our thinking on what makes a great pitcher has evolved. I wrote about this last year, in a different context. deGrom is nearing 100 wins (he currently has 96), and given his age (he’ll turn 38 in June) and long injury history, he isn’t likely to finish that far above the century mark. And I suspect that there will be some voters who won’t vote for him because of that.

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However, imagine that rather than being injured, deGrom was instead just a not-very-good pitcher for 1,000 to 1,500 additional innings. To get a composite for this, I took every starting pitcher since 1980 with between 1,000 and 1,500 innings pitched and an ERA- between 105 and 115, meaning that the group is consistently below average, but safely above replacement level. That gave me 51 pitchers, who averaged a 69-79 record in 211 starts over 1,233 2/3 innings, with an ERA of 4.59 and an ERA- of 109 (ERA+ of 92). Using ZiPS to project the rest of deGrom’s career, let’s look at where the computer expects the right-hander to finish, and how things would look if we grafted those not-very-good numbers onto his:

ZiPS Projection – Jacob deGrom
Player W L ERA G GS IP H ER HR BB SO ERA+ WAR
deGrom, Projected 122 86 2.82 319 319 1930.7 1514 604 205 447 2248 152 51.8
deGrom, with Grafted Mediocrity 181 165 3.51 531 531 3164.3 2821 1233 356 882 3073 122 64.3

The win-loss record isn’t impressive, but I strongly suspect that the second line — 64 WAR, approaching 200 wins, and more than 3,000 strikeouts — taken together with deGrom’s highlights would get more Hall of Fame support, both from voters and the general public. That baffles me, however; it’s sort of like looking at deGrom’s impressive contributions and thinking “OK, that’s great, but I think he’d have a better case if he had pitched some more like Jeremy Bonderman or Phil Hughes for a time.”

I am already on record as saying that when I consider awards votes, I tend to place a greater emphasis on being better than average than I do being better than replacement level. But we don’t really have a JAWS equivalent that attempts to weigh peak and career excellence relative to average performance rather than replacement level performance. One important reason that JAWS has had an effect on Hall of Fame voting and our perception of players and their Hall of Fame suitability is that the data both exists and is easy to find. So let’s construct just such a number, and see what it tells us about players that is different from JAWS.

As I mentioned, FanGraphs doesn’t have an easy-to-use WAA measure available, so for our purposes here, I’m making a rough measure of 2.0 WAR per 200 innings pitched or 650 plate appearances. Using FanGraphs WAR since 1901 — I want to avoid the messiness of 19th-century baseball for this exercise — I ran JAWS for every player. I then calculated an AltJAWS, using my constructed FanGraphs WAA.

Below are the top 50 hitters and pitchers by both JAWS and AltJAWS, and how they compare. I’ll note in advance since I’m starting with 1901, poor Cy Young takes a bit of a hit here:

Top 50 Pitchers, JAWS (FG WAR)
# Player WAR7 WAR JAWS AltJAWS Rank Diff
1 Roger Clemens 60.69 133.69 97.19 1 0
2 Walter Johnson 59.06 116.42 87.74 5 -3
3 Randy Johnson 64.25 110.45 87.35 2 1
4 Greg Maddux 53.45 116.66 85.06 3 1
5 Bert Blyleven 52.12 102.91 77.52 6 -1
6 Nolan Ryan Jr. 45.67 106.75 76.21 10 -4
7 Grover Alexander 52.49 95.74 74.11 20 -13
8 Steve Carlton 51.08 96.45 73.76 14 -6
9 Gaylord Perry 46.33 100.06 73.20 18 -9
10 Christy Mathewson 53.67 90.14 71.90 17 -7
11 Tom Seaver 51.34 92.37 71.86 13 -2
12 Pedro Martinez 56.16 84.44 70.30 4 8
13 Lefty Grove 49.35 87.37 68.36 11 2
14 Bob Gibson 51.59 82.26 66.92 15 -1
15 Justin Verlander 47.60 84.32 65.96 9 6
16 Fergie Jenkins 51.07 80.07 65.57 23 -7
17 Curt Schilling 49.87 79.83 64.85 8 9
18 Clayton Kershaw 48.02 79.05 63.54 7 11
19 Kevin Brown 49.31 76.55 62.93 12 7
20 Don Sutton 38.91 85.50 62.20 34 -14
21 Mike Mussina 41.58 81.22 61.40 19 2
22 John Smoltz 41.84 79.48 60.66 21 1
23 Phil Niekro 42.23 78.09 60.16 55 -32
24 Robin Roberts 44.04 74.64 59.34 42 -18
25 Max Scherzer 44.02 73.52 58.77 16 9
26 Tommy John 33.72 79.36 56.54 44 -18
27 Roy Halladay 47.30 65.39 56.35 22 5
28 Warren Spahn 38.10 74.46 56.28 77 -49
29 Cy Young 49.07 62.67 55.87 32 -3
30 Jim Bunning 44.28 66.92 55.60 36 -6
31 Jim Kaat 38.64 70.90 54.77 57 -26
32 Hal Newhouser 47.28 59.68 53.48 26 6
33 CC Sabathia 40.01 66.52 53.27 31 2
34 Mickey Lolich 41.02 64.58 52.80 46 -12
35 Rick Reuschel 36.95 68.22 52.58 37 -2
36 Zack Greinke 38.36 66.64 52.50 28 8
37 Juan Marichal 43.81 61.16 52.48 45 -8
38 Andy Pettitte 36.44 68.16 52.30 27 11
39 Eddie Plank 36.34 67.83 52.08 85 -46
40 Sandy Koufax 49.00 54.54 51.77 25 15
41 Bob Feller 41.97 61.42 51.70 61 -20
42 Dazzy Vance 43.22 60.14 51.68 33 9
43 Rube Waddell 47.50 54.69 51.10 35 8
44 Tom Glavine 33.26 66.73 49.99 76 -32
45 Dwight Gooden 43.26 56.72 49.99 29 16
46 Don Drysdale 40.55 59.35 49.95 54 -8
47 Bob Friend 38.31 61.14 49.72 58 -11
48 Eppa Rixey 34.50 64.75 49.62 111 -63
49 Chris Sale 40.96 57.59 49.27 24 25
50 Jerry Koosman 34.52 62.62 48.57 65 -15

Top 50 Pitchers, AltJAWS (FG WAR)
# Player WAA7 WAA AltJAWS JAWS Rank Diff
1 Roger Clemens 42.80 84.56 63.68 1 0
2 Randy Johnson 46.92 69.14 58.03 3 1
3 Greg Maddux 36.90 66.60 51.75 4 1
4 Pedro Martinez 42.05 56.20 49.13 12 8
5 Walter Johnson 34.54 57.31 45.92 2 -3
6 Bert Blyleven 31.75 53.25 42.50 5 -1
7 Clayton Kershaw 33.26 50.53 41.89 18 11
8 Curt Schilling 33.72 47.24 40.48 17 9
9 Justin Verlander 31.94 48.65 40.30 15 6
10 Nolan Ryan Jr. 27.14 52.92 40.03 6 -4
11 Lefty Grove 29.94 47.98 38.96 13 2
12 Kevin Brown 32.45 44.01 38.23 19 7
13 Tom Seaver 31.78 44.57 38.17 11 -2
14 Steve Carlton 31.83 44.31 38.07 8 -6
15 Bob Gibson 31.68 43.44 37.56 14 -1
16 Max Scherzer 29.41 43.92 36.67 25 9
17 Christy Mathewson 30.56 42.70 36.63 10 -7
18 Gaylord Perry 25.20 46.60 35.90 9 -9
19 Mike Mussina 26.09 45.64 35.86 21 2
20 Grover Alexander 27.63 43.85 35.74 7 -13
21 John Smoltz 26.55 44.80 35.68 22 1
22 Roy Halladay 30.45 37.92 34.18 27 5
23 Fergie Jenkins 29.83 35.06 32.45 16 -7
24 Chris Sale 27.36 36.78 32.07 49 25
25 Sandy Koufax 30.94 31.32 31.13 40 15
26 Hal Newhouser 27.65 29.78 28.72 32 6
27 Andy Pettitte 22.02 35.03 28.52 38 11
28 Zack Greinke 23.40 32.77 28.08 36 8
29 Dwight Gooden 27.32 28.74 28.03 45 16
30 Jacob deGrom 24.90 31.04 27.97 88 58
31 CC Sabathia 24.11 30.78 27.44 33 2
32 Cy Young 25.21 29.56 27.39 29 -3
33 Dazzy Vance 24.25 30.50 27.37 42 9
34 Don Sutton 21.70 32.72 27.21 20 -14
35 Rube Waddell 25.97 28.11 27.04 43 8
36 Jim Bunning 24.59 29.33 26.96 30 -6
37 Rick Reuschel 21.10 32.76 26.93 35 -2
38 Roy Oswalt 23.50 30.19 26.85 63 25
39 Cliff Lee 26.63 26.69 26.66 66 27
40 Bret Saberhagen 22.17 29.64 25.90 55 15
41 Felix Hernandez 24.80 26.76 25.78 53 12
42 Robin Roberts 21.98 27.78 24.88 24 -18
43 Sam McDowell 26.03 23.63 24.83 57 14
44 Tommy John 17.10 32.29 24.70 26 -18
45 Juan Marichal 23.28 26.10 24.69 37 -8
46 Mickey Lolich 20.72 28.23 24.48 34 -12
47 Johan Santana 22.78 25.35 24.06 90 43
48 David Cone 21.01 27.03 24.02 56 8
49 Gerrit Cole 21.64 26.38 24.01 95 46
50 Javier Vazquez 22.30 25.31 23.80 62 12

Top 50 Hitters, JAWS (FG WAR)
# Player WAR7 WAR JAWS AltJAWS Rank Diff
1 Babe Ruth 89.28 163.30 126.29 1 0
2 Barry Bonds 77.18 164.45 120.81 2 0
3 Willie Mays 70.55 149.80 110.17 3 0
4 Ty Cobb 69.17 149.08 109.12 4 0
5 Rogers Hornsby 75.46 129.14 102.30 5 0
6 Ted Williams 72.42 129.77 101.09 6 0
7 Hank Aaron 56.41 136.31 96.36 11 -4
8 Tristram Speaker 61.36 130.20 95.78 9 -1
9 Stan Musial 64.25 126.37 95.31 10 -1
10 Honus Wagner 68.57 120.29 94.43 7 3
11 Lou Gehrig 69.68 115.92 92.80 8 3
12 Eddie Collins Sr. 62.74 120.14 91.44 13 -1
13 Alex Rodriguez 64.46 113.55 89.01 14 -1
14 Mickey Mantle 65.46 112.29 88.87 12 2
15 Mike Schmidt 59.07 106.52 82.79 15 0
16 Mel Ott 54.40 110.12 82.26 17 -1
17 Jimmie Foxx 61.82 101.40 81.61 16 1
18 Rickey Henderson 56.22 106.34 81.28 20 -2
19 Joe Morgan 58.50 98.83 78.66 19 0
20 Frank Robinson 50.77 103.96 77.37 22 -2
21 Eddie Mathews 55.26 96.11 75.68 21 0
22 Mike Trout 63.50 87.16 75.33 18 4
23 Albert Pujols 57.91 89.89 73.90 26 -3
24 Carl Yastrzemski 51.74 94.83 73.28 29 -5
25 Cal Ripken Jr. 53.18 92.51 72.84 27 -2
26 Wade Boggs 56.14 88.34 72.24 25 1
27 Nap Lajoie 57.98 84.45 71.21 23 4
28 Joe DiMaggio 54.36 82.65 68.50 24 4
29 Al Kaline 46.68 88.94 67.81 30 -1
30 George Brett 50.75 84.62 67.68 32 -2
31 Chipper Jones Jr. 46.78 84.62 65.70 34 -3
32 Ken Griffey Jr. 52.85 77.71 65.28 37 -5
33 Jeff Bagwell 49.48 80.21 64.85 31 2
34 Charlie Gehringer 49.36 78.62 63.99 38 -4
35 Roberto Clemente 47.11 80.64 63.87 35 0
36 Adrian Beltre 43.86 83.51 63.69 47 -11
37 Brooks Robinson 45.05 80.16 62.61 51 -14
38 Ron Santo 52.74 70.94 61.84 40 -2
39 Pete Rose 43.38 80.16 61.77 114 -75
40 Arky Vaughan 50.20 72.38 61.29 33 7
41 Johnny Bench 47.36 74.82 61.09 36 5
42 Frankie Frisch 46.90 74.76 60.83 45 -3
43 Paul Waner 44.42 74.82 59.62 66 -23
44 Frank Thomas 46.80 72.06 59.43 56 -12
45 Aaron Judge 56.50 61.56 59.03 28 17
46 Reggie Jackson 43.87 72.75 58.31 75 -29
47 Rod Carew 44.25 72.32 58.29 70 -23
48 Luke Appling 43.56 72.58 58.07 69 -21
49 Gary Carter 46.27 69.40 57.83 52 -3
50 Al Simmons 45.99 69.41 57.70 59 -9

Top 50 Hitters, AltJAWS (FG WAR)
# Player WAA7 WAA AltJAWS JAWS Rank Diff
1 Babe Ruth 74.83 131.88 103.36 1 0
2 Barry Bonds 63.79 125.66 94.73 2 0
3 Willie Mays 56.16 111.21 83.69 3 0
4 Ty Cobb 55.30 108.86 82.08 4 0
5 Rogers Hornsby 61.14 99.99 80.56 5 0
6 Ted Williams 58.65 99.64 79.14 6 0
7 Honus Wagner 55.72 90.62 73.17 10 3
8 Lou Gehrig 54.55 86.20 70.37 11 3
9 Tristram Speaker 47.28 93.31 70.30 8 -1
10 Stan Musial 49.36 87.25 68.31 9 -1
11 Hank Aaron 41.95 93.42 67.68 7 -4
12 Mickey Mantle 51.58 81.80 66.69 14 2
13 Eddie Collins Sr. 48.32 83.11 65.71 12 -1
14 Alex Rodriguez 49.20 75.99 62.60 13 -1
15 Mike Schmidt 45.25 75.56 60.40 15 0
16 Jimmie Foxx 47.80 71.65 59.72 17 1
17 Mel Ott 40.06 75.24 57.65 16 -1
18 Mike Trout 49.25 65.00 57.12 22 4
19 Joe Morgan 44.65 63.97 54.31 19 0
20 Rickey Henderson 42.50 65.27 53.89 18 -2
21 Eddie Mathews 41.13 65.03 53.08 21 0
22 Frank Robinson 36.74 67.83 52.29 20 -2
23 Nap Lajoie 44.88 59.04 51.96 27 4
24 Joe DiMaggio 40.77 59.04 49.91 28 4
25 Wade Boggs 41.05 55.29 48.17 26 1
26 Albert Pujols 43.36 49.76 46.56 23 -3
27 Cal Ripken Jr. 37.82 52.87 45.34 25 -2
28 Aaron Judge 43.13 46.17 44.65 45 17
29 Carl Yastrzemski 37.14 51.78 44.46 24 -5
30 Al Kaline 33.26 53.26 43.26 29 -1
31 Jeff Bagwell 35.23 51.19 43.21 33 2
32 George Brett 36.78 48.85 42.81 30 -2
33 Arky Vaughan 36.21 48.62 42.42 40 7
34 Chipper Jones Jr. 32.63 51.96 42.30 31 -3
35 Roberto Clemente 33.80 49.22 41.51 35 0
36 Johnny Bench 34.02 48.14 41.08 41 5
37 Ken Griffey Jr. 38.97 42.93 40.95 32 -5
38 Charlie Gehringer 34.53 47.12 40.82 34 -4
39 Joe Jackson 37.53 42.93 40.23 62 23
40 Ron Santo 37.92 42.02 39.97 38 -2
41 Johnny Mize 33.22 45.45 39.34 51 10
42 Hank Greenberg 36.28 41.88 39.08 65 23
43 Lou Boudreau 35.40 42.76 39.08 55 12
44 Jackie Robinson 35.22 41.61 38.41 78 34
45 Frankie Frisch 32.94 43.68 38.31 42 -3
46 Oscar Charleston 34.06 42.52 38.29 140 94
47 Adrian Beltre 30.25 46.19 38.22 36 -11
48 Buster Posey 35.16 40.60 37.88 92 44
49 Willie Wells 33.10 42.57 37.84 136 87
50 Scott Rolen 31.23 43.66 37.45 52 2

The natural result of using wins above average is to place a greater emphasis on a player’s peak years, so the guys who get big bumps in altJAWS include Sandy Koufax (40 to 25), Johan Santana (90 to 47), Aaron Judge (45 to 28), and Buster Posey (92 to 48).

Now, is this solution better than what we already have? I can’t really answer that question, as the meaning of the Hall of Fame, even with statistics playing a large part, remains a philosophical exercise. Voters obviously consider more than a player’s statistics, advanced or otherwise. But I do think that Jacob deGrom is a great pitcher who deserves to be in the Hall of Fame, even if he falls short of the innings and win totals we’re used to. You might not be sold. And it’s OK if we disagree.





Dan Szymborski is a senior writer for FanGraphs and the developer of the ZiPS projection system. He was a writer for ESPN.com from 2010-2018, a regular guest on a number of radio shows and podcasts, and a voting BBWAA member. He also maintains a terrible Twitter account at @DSzymborski.

126 Comments
Oldest
Newest Most Voted
mountmMember since 2020
5 months ago

Great article Dan and I am largely in agreement that WAA is the metric of choice when it comes to evaluating Hall of Fame worthiness. If an easy-to-use WAA measure were available on the site I would use it A LOT (David Appelman are you listening?)

I’m a little confused by the Diffs in the second table, they don’t seem to match the values for pitchers in the first table the way that hitters do. Did something get mangled in site rendering or am I just misunderstanding?

sadtromboneMember since 2020
5 months ago
Reply to  mountm

I strongly agree with this:

If an easy-to-use WAA measure were available on the site I would use it A LOT (David Appelman are you listening?)

This is absolutely the sort of thing FG should have easily available.

shandykoufaxMember since 2024
5 months ago
Reply to  mountm

It’s a difficult stat to calculate, at least if you aren’t from Cleveland:

https://www.sportico.com/business/media/2025/cleveland-cavaliers-the-diff-graphic-meaning-1234829141/

beastmodeeMember since 2026
5 months ago
Reply to  mountm

just add Off+Def in your head and divide by 10, that’s basically it

scottsjunk1981Member since 2021
5 months ago
Reply to  beastmodee

I think that double counts the positional adjustment.

SertoriusMember since 2023
5 months ago
Reply to  scottsjunk1981

No, Off and Def don’t work like oWAR and dWAR on B-Ref. Def has a positional adjustment and Off does not.

hurricanexyzMember since 2016
5 months ago
Reply to  beastmodee

Yeah for position players it’s not that hard. The problem is pitchers. I haven’t come up with a better solution than “subtract 2 per 200 IP”

JimMember since 2016
5 months ago

I have listened to Mozart since Christmas of 1977, when the German sister of my wife sent us an album that changed my life. Now all is listen to is classical music, mostly including Handel, Bach, and Telemann. I have listened to everything Mozart wrote and I love it all, even the early stuff (try cassation k63 or k99, which were written when he was 13 — if you want to listen, google Mozart k63 or k99). I am so impressed, Dan, that you listen to Wolfgang.

Brian ReinhartMember since 2016
5 months ago
Reply to  Dan Szymborski

Wowza. I only have six Ma Vlasts and feel so outclassed. (Kubelik Boston and Czech, Flor, Ancerl studio and live, Kuchar).

You need Ancerl studio; what do I need?

Last edited 5 months ago by Brian Reinhart
Brian ReinhartMember since 2016
5 months ago

Perfect background music to read this article: Mozart’s 12 variations in E flat on the song “Je suis Lindor” (I Am Lindor) for solo keyboard, age 22, K. 354

Brian ReinhartMember since 2016
5 months ago
Reply to  Brian Reinhart

Update: changed my mind, the name is funny but the musical piece is so much longer than the article. Didn’t realize I was gonna be sitting with middling Mozart for 18 whole minutes

sadtromboneMember since 2020
5 months ago

Now, is this solution better than what we already have? I can’t really answer that question

I can answer it. The answer is yes.

I have been trying to think of some way to deal with compilers and this is it.

There might be another way to do it by weighting WAR7 higher. But this has the advantage of keeping all of the same logic as JAWS except ensuring that greatness is what gets counted.

Ostensibly RidiculousMember since 2020
5 months ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

But it does then punish players who linger beyond their great years, like Pujols. (I still prefer it, though).

Doug LampertMember since 2016
5 months ago

Don’t count years with negative WAA at all. Playing MLB should not be penalized, but playing it better than average is what should be rewarded.

hurricanexyzMember since 2016
5 months ago
Reply to  Doug Lampert

Yeah, I’ve sometimes thought that like, “WAA high-water-mark” is my favorite single Hall of Fame metric

sadtromboneMember since 2020
5 months ago

Yeah, that’s a problem. I think I’d just only count seasons where they had 2 or more WAR.

Ostensibly RidiculousMember since 2020
5 months ago

This was covered in the comments below. I think removing any below average seasons is a good answer

Joey CaltrainMember since 2019
5 months ago

I strongly prefer WAA when looking at hall of fame cases as well. One suggestion I’ve also wanted to play around with would be to only add up a player’s positive WAA and exclude their below-average years from the analysis entirely. Otherwise, I think we risk penalizing the Miguel Cabreras and Albert Pujolses of the world for compiling, which isn’t really what we want either.

Left of Centerfield
5 months ago
Reply to  Joey Caltrain

I was writing a comment about that as well. If the idea is that only greatness matters, then negative seasons shouldn’t factor into the analysis.

jamesnewburgMember since 2024
5 months ago
Reply to  Joey Caltrain

Was also scrolling down to write the same comment!

sandwiches4everMember since 2019
5 months ago
Reply to  Joey Caltrain

I thought about this a little bit, and I’m unsure about zeroing out negative WAA (which I can’t read without hearing Wario in my head) entirely. I like it from a process standpoint of simplicity.

But I do think if someone spends 5-7 years between, say, average and replacement, and then puts up three Judgian seasons, it does drag down their overall “greatness” — to me, at least. I’d maybe want to cap the floor at replacement value.

mountmMember since 2020
5 months ago
Reply to  Joey Caltrain
sadtromboneMember since 2020
5 months ago
Reply to  Joey Caltrain

Yeah I would just exclude any year where they put up less than 2 WAR. I don’t think you should be able to get into the Hall of Fame based on stats padding at the end of their careers, but I also don’t think guys become any less worthy because they hang around too long.

millvillemeltdownMember since 2026
5 months ago
Reply to  Joey Caltrain

just pausing to say, *fantastic* username.

nicklocarnoMember since 2025
5 months ago

Love this. I value JAWS, but find that where I consistently disagree with it is on outliers… in both directions. I’d’ve voted for Johan Santana (and suspect he’d be in already if his best-pitchet-on-the-planet years had happened in New York, and his above-average-but-injured years in MN), but I would have also given strong consideration to someone like Bartolo Colon, who was good enough to cross the “you must be this tall” line, but whose career is remarkable because he pitched for basically ever.

Left of Centerfield
5 months ago
Reply to  nicklocarno

While I wouldn’t have voted for Colon, I agree with the genearl idea of your comment. Most things in life aren’t either/or. They’re both/and. So maybe two separate JAWS, one based on WAR and one based one WAA to give a fuller pitcure of what someone has done in their career.

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
5 months ago
Reply to  nicklocarno

It’s kind of like theoretical physics, where there is one set of rules for the subatomic universe and another set of rules for the macroscopic, and no one has yet figured out quite how to marry the two together.

There is a place for accumulators who are consistently good for just so, so long, and there is a place for those who burn brightly but burn out. You just can’t use the same metric for both of them.

Last edited 5 months ago by HappyFunBall
Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
5 months ago
Reply to  HappyFunBall

At the same time…JAWS does a really good job of finding that balance.

Set the threshold at 47.5 (Koufax’s total), and you get Wood, TJ, Hudson, Hershiser, Santana, Appier, Stieb, Saberhagen, Cone, and El Tiante in…while Pettitte and Buehrle just miss the cut.

Sheffield and Bobby Bonds make it in RF.

Jim Wynn, Willie Davis, and Edmonds make it in CF.

Torre, Olerud, and Hernandez get in at 1B.

The three Bs and Nettles all crack 50 JAWS at 3B, getting there in very different ways.

je5Member since 2025
5 months ago

will always upvote and acknowledge Edmonds for HoF. truly insane that hes not in.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
5 months ago
Reply to  nicklocarno

Johan cracks 48 JAWS, in fairness – with Finley/Appier/Hamels/Hershiser/Hudson/Tommy John.

They’re in a collection of “Awesome peak” types between Wilbur Wood and Brett Saberhagen.

That’s a full level up from the Guidry through Gooden HoVG cluster, where Felix and Oswalt sit and DeGrom currently resides.

(Pettitte and Buehrle are in a no man’s land between the two groups).

Last edited 5 months ago by Cool Lester Smooth
Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
5 months ago

Big fan of WAA for HoF conversations…but I also do have a 45 JAWS threshold when it comes to being “good enough long enough.”

Or maybe it should be a 40 WAR7 threshold, for peak types?

Last edited 5 months ago by Cool Lester Smooth
watertexas8445
5 months ago

I am already on record as saying that when I consider awards votes, I tend to place a greater emphasis on being better than average than I do being better than replacement level. 

Why doesn’t this apply to your Rookie of the Year votes? I’m thinking of your 2024 NL Rookie of the Year vote in which you voted Jackson Merrill and his 2.5 rWAA over Paul Skenes and his 4.7 rWAA.

Anyway, enjoyed the article, it definitely got me thinking.

watertexas8445
5 months ago
Reply to  Dan Szymborski

In the end, I had to make the choice based more on non-statistical grounds.

Is how you described your ballot that year. And even if you add a win to Merrill to account for FRV vs DRS, he was still well short of Skenes using rWAA. Going all the way to using your fWAA formula (which docks Skenes even more) it would be Skenes 3.0 Merrill 3.5 (I think), far closer than the 4.7 to 2.5 rWAA edge that Skenes had.

Using generalities, I think it’s fair to say that Skenes had a partial year of elite pitching and Merrill had a full year of very good outfield play that on a WAR basis ended up being about equal, but on a WAA basis had Skenes above Merrill. This seems to be a very similar parallel that you are using to argue for deGrom, that the elite stretches should count for more.

So I’m curious, do you extend the “elite performance counts for more” line of thinking to single season awards, or are you just confining it to career HOF cases?

watertexas8445
5 months ago
Reply to  Dan Szymborski

Okay so averaging the two WAAs gives Skenes 3.82 Merrill 3.01, seems like a pretty big difference to me. (Averaging the two WARs gives Skenes a 5.1 to 4.85 edge fwiw.)

If you are saying that you think the characterization of the two players having about equal WAR, with Skenes ahead in WAA is wrong, then we’ll have to agree to disagree. The specific players involved wasn’t the crux of my question, I just thought that that specific ballot demonstrated my point well.

Say for the sake of argument that you had two players, Saul Pkenes and Mackson Jerrill. Pkenes and Jerrill have identical fWAR and bWAR but Pkenes has a full 1.0 edge on Jerrill in both fWAA and bWAA. In your opinion, should Pkenes get the vote for MVP/ROY/etc., or is this line of thinking restricted to evaluating HOF cases?

(For full transparency I strongly believe that Skenes should have won ROY and WAA is a big reason why.)

mountmMember since 2020
5 months ago
Reply to  watertexas8445

I agree with you in the hypothetical case but Dan in the practical case. Taking the average of BRef and FG data in the Skenes vs. Merrill debate is the sabermetric equivalent of cutting the baby in half.

Merrill had a higher fWAR and fWAA than Skenes in 2024. If your personal philosophy of WAR is closer to being aligned with FanGraphs’ numbers than BRef’s, it’s not controversial to vote for Merrill.

Last edited 5 months ago by Michael Mountain
Left of Centerfield
5 months ago

deGrom is obviously a weird case that tends to “break the models”. But I do wonder about the negative impact of paying someone $30M+ per year and having them pitch under 100 innings a year. Granted, the Mets and Rangers can afford that cost. But they had to replace him with a far lesser pitcher. I know that’s hard to factor in to a numerical evaluation, but I don’t think we should just ignore that his injuries had a negative impact on his teams.

Also, I’m not sure how Dan calculated WAA. It sounds like he did it on a career basis rather than an individual season basis. Which might work better. Looking at Baseball Reference, WAA seems to break down for short seasons. For example, in 2022, pitching 64 innings, deGrom accumulated 1.5 WAR and 1.0 WAA. Yes, he was amazing in those 64 innings. But he didn’t accumulate much WAR for the season so rewarding his with postive WAA seems a bit strange to me. (again, given that he had to be replaced with a worse pitcher).

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
5 months ago

Yep – DeGrom hasn’t even cracked 40 WAR7 yet, because he’s less a “burned bright” guy than a “never available” one.

He’s only cracked 5 rWAR three times…and 5 fWAR twice (with two 4.9 fWAR seasons).

mountmMember since 2020
5 months ago

That is actually kind of the entire point of WAA? It captures how much dominance a player exerted over the rest of the league collectively.

When measured in a single season it lets you quickly see whether a guy was “good” (above average) or “bad” (below average) without having to think about how much playing time they got. Like the 1.5 WAR, we’re trained to think “2 WAR is average so deGrom must have been bad” but you have to cross-reference that with the IP total to reason yourself into thinking “wait he was actually really good when he was on the mound.”

If you just look at his WAA for the season, you see immediately that he was better than a league average player would have been expected to perform given the same workload. It’s not a gaudy total like you would expect if he had been more available, but it still informs you that “this is a good pitcher”.

Last edited 5 months ago by Michael Mountain
Left of Centerfield
5 months ago
Reply to  mountm

But I don’t need WAA to tell me if a pitcher was good or not. I already know that from deGrom’s ERA (3.08) and FIP(2.13).

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
5 months ago
Reply to  mountm

There’s no question of his being a good pitcher…but there’s a meaningful difference between short career guys and those who miss 10-15 starts a year.

It’s not about tacking on 5-7 years of Hughes-level performances.

It’s about his team getting an extra 10 starts a year from a Hughes type, rather than some AAAA kid.

If you have a choice between a starter giving you 100 innings at a 1.08 ERA or 200 innings at a 2.70 ERA…do you even have to think about it?

3cardmontyMember since 2025
5 months ago

I did have to think about it. 100 IP at 1.08 plus 100 IP at 5.00 is 200 IP of 3.04, not much different from 2.70. Had to put it into the calculator because it was by no means obvious to me. In fact I still don’t know which one you think is obviously better.

Last edited 5 months ago by 3cardmonty
Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
5 months ago
Reply to  3cardmonty

Dear God, I’m embarrassed for you.

I’d suggest reading the article.

Then reading the comment to which I replied.

Then reading what I wrote.

Then reconsidering the life choices that led to your weird little rant about an imaginary pitcher with a 5.00 ERA.

But, given the self-awareness and basic reading comprehension and you’ve evidenced here…I’m expecting a year of you replying to my every comment in a desperate attempt to PROVE that 4.52 and 5.00 are the same number.

I’m so sorry.

Last edited 5 months ago by Cool Lester Smooth
3cardmontyMember since 2025
5 months ago

Thank you for the kind reply. It appeared to me you were suggesting that 200 2.70 IP and 100 1.08 IP paired with 100 replacement level IP led to obviously different outcomes from a team perspective. Apparently that was not the case, but try as I might to rack my troglodytic brain I can come up with no other interpretation for your comment, let alone a justification for your hostility.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
5 months ago
Reply to  3cardmonty

Understanding the basic context of a discussion is always important before trying to hop in with a “Well AKSHULLY.”

No one, at any point, mentioned “replacement level.”

Only thing worse than would-be pedants who can’t be arsed to read is when they proceed to play the victim, haha.

Last edited 5 months ago by Cool Lester Smooth
3cardmontyMember since 2025
5 months ago

You mentioned the effect of a AAAA player making 10 starts a year. That is a reference to replacement level.

Left of Centerfield
5 months ago

I want to add one thing to my original comment. While there’s value in Dan’s way of thinking, some of his comparisons are strange.

Most of us don’t think Jack Morris should be in the Hall of Fame. As for Miguel Cabrera, he was an easy Hall of Famer BEFORE he went into decline. A 13 year peak with 69.1 bWAR (minimum of 2.7 per year). Plus all the accolades – All Star Appearances, multiple MVPs, triple crown. No one’s voting for Cabrera for Hall of Fame because of what he did after that. Nor do they need to.

Even if you look at guys who got hurt a lot like deGrom (Trout, Griffey), they were easy HOFers before they started getting hurt.

And while WAA has value, it also has a low threshhold (2.0 WAR). I personally like to look at what I consider HOF seasons. For that, I use a threshhold of 4.0 WAR. deGrom has a total of 4 HOF seasons via Baseball Reference and 5 via Fangraphs. Setting aside the “bad HOF selections”, I think you’ll find that the vast majority of HOFer have more than that. Even a guy like Felix Hernandez has 7 via Baseball Reference and 6 via Fangraphs.

JameyMember since 2020
5 months ago

Dan, check the Diff column. It looks very wrong in the AltJaws table for pitchers.

GBrettHOF99Member since 2024
5 months ago

This is an interesting perspective – but availability is a tangible asset and completely discounting a player’s ability to contribute on the field is not something that I am willing to do. Jacob deGrom’s lack of availability has derailed numerous teams that have paid him to actually pitch while he sat in the dugout/or was in extended spring training/a rehab room

It is not like deGrom was forced into an early retirement like Sandy Koufax/Gale Sayers due to injuries – or had a significantly late start to his career due to events outside of his control like Jackie Robinson.

I don’t think deGrom could pitch to 48 years old at the level of Jeremy Bonderman/Phil Hughes and it would greatly impress me if he could!

Even considering this, Gale Sayers/Sandy Koufax are clearly outliers and I personally give more love to Walter Payton/Clayton Kershaw. To each his own on this. I am not saying that my perspective is the right answer here.

I think WAA is a good tool if we are looking for another perspective for guys with great peaks, but WAA seems somewhat flawed to me on the surface if we are trying to use it to ascertain the greatest pitcher since 1901. WAA shows Kevin Brown as #12 and above Steve Carlton, Bob Gibson, and Tom Seaver. Kevin Brown was a fine pitcher, but at no point was a Kevin Brown start appointment television or did I think that I was seeing one of the greatest pitchers of all time when watching him on the bump.

FrancoeursteinMember since 2025
5 months ago
Reply to  GBrettHOF99

To be fair Kevin Brown was damn good at his peak. He had a sub 3.00 FIP from 1996-2003 in the middle of the steroid era.

sandwiches4everMember since 2019
5 months ago
Reply to  GBrettHOF99

Your argument about Kevin Brown — the “appointment television” comment — I think hits on an interesting part of pitcher “greatness”. A pitcher who bullies hitters with a high K% will tend to feel “greater” (with some exceptions). Kevin Brown was spectacular, but he didn’t necessarily feel that way.

I don’t think that’s something to completely disregard — I think heuristically as baseball fans, that feel will gravitate towards players who put the best results — but that shouldn’t be the only (or a primary, even) metric.

I call it the “Bobby” argument after three massively underrated players: Bobbys Abreu, Bonds, and Grich. Just because a guy doesn’t feel like a HOFer doesn’t mean he doesn’t deserve to be one.

Veeck as in BeckMember since 2024
5 months ago

> I call it the “Bobby” argument after three massively underrated players: Bobbys Abreu, Bonds, and Grich. Just because a guy doesn’t feel like a HOFer doesn’t mean he doesn’t deserve to be one.

I agree, and the converse is true as well – sometimes the fact a player felt like a HOFer but the numbers don’t bear it out deserves extra consideration. Like if Javy Baez had ended up with 40-45 JAWS he would be underwhelming statistically, but one of the most uniquely electric and charismatic players in baseball for say 5-7 years. The “fame” part matters – charisma, magnetism, the one your kids watch all the highlight videos of and beg to go to the ballpark whenever his team is in town – that matters.

For that matter, staying power matters to me too – if you play 5-10 years of average or replacement level baseball, that gives 5-10 more years of games for young fans to say they saw so and so play. Like Jordan playing past his prime with the Wizards – that gave another 5 years or whatever of people to say they saw him. I would not put a premium on this by any means, but appreciate that JAWS captures an element of “he kept showed up to the ballpark”.

Ostensibly RidiculousMember since 2020
5 months ago

Great comment

schneidlerMember since 2016
5 months ago
Reply to  GBrettHOF99

Oh wow, yeah I totally disagree about the Kevin Brown thing. I’m a fan of a team that never employed Kevin Brown, so I think I’m a neutral voice and for a while there I felt like if he was starting the game, his team had an enormous advantage, like Randy Johnson or Curt Schilling at the time.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
5 months ago
Reply to  schneidler

He was the first player to get a contract of $100M or more, led the NL in ERA twice, and pitched a no-hitter. He’d be in easily if he hadn’t been a known steroid user.

krusherkovalev55Member since 2026
5 months ago
Reply to  schneidler

I wasn’t a big baseball fan growing up given my royals were atrocious for the first 20 plus years of my life but I was 7 years old in 1998 and watched sports center and the sports illustrated channel version of it like five times a day and I’m ashamed to admit I don’t recall ever knowing who Kevin Brown was. I remember most of the stars of the time I thought but I have zero recollection of this guy who was apparently amazing judging by his stats. Nothing rings a bell for me even after looking him up though. I have read fangraphs daily for a decade and don’t recall ever seeing his name even mentioned until now lol

A Salty ScientistMember since 2024
5 months ago
Reply to  schneidler

Agreed. I distinctly remember him outdueling Randy Johnson in the playoffs with a 16K masterpiece.

dtpollittMember since 2016
5 months ago

I thought this was a really nice article, thank you.

kuri3460Member since 2025
5 months ago

This is a really interesting line of thought, and it’s something Hall of Fame voters are going to have to wrestle with if the Hall wants to stay relevant over the next few decades.

When the Hall opened in the 1930s, the whole idea of “greatness” was shaped as much by folklore as by anything objective. Early voters had limited footage of Babe Ruth, Cy Young, and Honus Wagner, and didn’t have Baseball-Reference or FanGraphs.

What they did have were newspaper clippings, radio calls, and a lot of half‑mythologized memories. Stats existed, but the context around them was totally different.

Back then, there were half the number of teams, the talent pool was smaller (no blacks, few foreign players), so the gap between the best players and the average ones was so wide that the true elites routinely put up numbers that seem astronomical. That’s why milestones like 3,000 hits, 500 home runs, or 250–300 wins became such sacred benchmarks – they were almost baked into the careers of the era’s top players.

Fast‑forward to the last 25-30 years, and everything has changed. Technology, analytics, medical care, nutrition, training – you name it, it’s gotten dramatically better. Add in the global talent pool, and the overall baseline of who reaches the majors is just way higher. The difference between stars and role players isn’t nearly as steep as it was a century ago.

It’s not hard to imagine Jacob deGrom dropping into the ’60s and mowing hitters down the way Gibson or Koufax did. And in the other direction, if you dropped Gibson or Koufax into 2026, they’d still be great—but they’d be on pitch counts, throw far fewer innings, and be doing the same cautious dance with the injured list that every modern ace does.

If the Hall of Fame wants to stay meaningful, it’s going to need to rethink how it defines greatness.

MentholMember since 2014
5 months ago

Really interesting article, thanks. But I am in the minority who appreciate Mozart less than others do, while still recognizing his obvious genius. I just don’t find his music that rewarding; to me (and I recognize I am really in the minority here) he was like a guy who can rip through a Rubik’s cube in seconds, but without deep inspiration beyond his incredible facility with the math and physics of music.

I realize his WAR was astronomical in his prime. His short career does hurt him, though he was precocious and blitzed through AA and AAA composing to get to the majors at a very young age.

I also think his value takes a hit for other reasons. He was often injured, primarily with various infections and of course the kidney problems that ultimately led to his early demise. And there are other issues that analytics can’t really measure. He was a clubhouse cancer; his ego was off the charts and I don’t think he was really a team guy despite being a generally warm person. If there were BarcaLoungers in the 18th century, he would have had one in the clubhouse.

I would have voted for him to be in the Hall, but I wouldn’t have been passionate about it.

Last edited 5 months ago by Menthol
formerly matt wMember since 2025
5 months ago
Reply to  Menthol

So who is J.S. Bach, the guy with the most output where it’s all top drawer too? Maybe Ty Cobb if you ignore the clubhouse factors, or Cy Young to match his (lack of) personality.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
5 months ago

Hank Aaron.

Hank Aaron’s career totals are nuts (complimentary)

g4Member since 2020
5 months ago

Harrumph!!, I say, to a 50 spot drop for Warren Spahn.

Cool article, ample food for thought.

I don’t relish seeing what using WAA would do to Sweet Lou Whitaker’s ranking — if negative, I would disagree with the premise that being solidly above average (but sub-great) for 15 out of 16 consecutive seasons only carries modest value. Every GM would kill for Whitaker’s level of reliability, in hindsight.

The WAA argument is more compelling on the pitching side. Sutton, Niekro, Roberts and Glavine always did feel like lower-tier Hall types to me. Although knowing what we know now about how how maximizing stuff results in injury and sunk seasons, WAA may also be underestimating how valuable these steady compilers were to their teams.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
5 months ago
Reply to  g4

Mentioned this above, but DeGrom’s 2014 plus 14 quality starts is called “Prime Max Scherzer” (13-22).

Every GM, every manager, every player, and every fan would take prime Max Scherzer over Prime DeGrom…because those 14 starts where he doesn’t have “It” but still guts through are 14 starts where you don’t have a 6th (or 7th or 8th!) starter out there.

Ostensibly RidiculousMember since 2020
5 months ago

But from a fan perspective…
It’s a beautiful day in early September. You are able to attend one of two games that are playing at the same time – both feature elite teams playing elite teams with playoff implications. One game features prime Scherzer. The other game features prime DeGrom.
Who do you want to see?
(And how tough a decision is it?)

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
5 months ago
Reply to  g4

(Separately, the final leaderboards are undermined a bit by their use of a model which argues that we need to exclude Zack Greinke’s defense in order to accurately evaluate Zack Greinke’s value…especially when we know that pitcher BABIP is stable over a sufficient sample.)

formerly matt wMember since 2025
5 months ago
Reply to  g4

I’m going to bet that Whitaker doesn’t get hit too hard on AltJAWS. Let’s see…

Total career fWAA = 37.4
seven year peak fWAA = 25.1
AltJAWS = 31.2

Well, that lands between Reggie Jackson (37.7 total, 30.3 peak, 34.0 AltJaws, 75th) and Pete Rose (31.4 total, 27.4 peak, 29.4 AltJaws, 114th overall). And since I don’t have the spreadsheets nor do I want to try to make them, I don’t know whether Sweet Lou has dropped from fJAWS to AltJAWS… I would figure that any JAWS measure would ding him because he has steady excellent production rather than a big peak, but I think even though he didn’t have a hugely long career he gets dinged on fWAA because he had a lot of PAs within his best seasons. Rose of course gets it in the neck on total fWAA for seven below average seasons, where I think Lou only had two (one of them his initial cup of coffee).

Chili Davis Eyes
5 months ago

Now I have something to point to when I’m arguing that Dwight Gooden belongs in the Hall of Fame. Thanks, Dan!

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
5 months ago

JAWS-wise, Doc’s equidistant between Guidry and Hershiser!

dsouthworth1Member since 2017
5 months ago

Don’t forget the Mozart string quintets!!

g4Member since 2020
5 months ago

Incidentally, the precipitousness of the cliff Miguel Cabrera fell off between age 33 and age 34 is truly frightening. More than isolated evil, the persistent frailty of the human back makes me question the altruism of God’s plan.

Yer Main GuyMember since 2024
5 months ago

Thanks! I think about WAA in the shower a lot. I can’t be the only one.

Never liked measuring peak with WAR7! Some guys have a longer peak or a bimodal peak. I would advocate just updating JAWS to replace WAR7 with WAA where seasons of WAA<0 are removed.

Philip ChristyMember since 2026
5 months ago
Reply to  Yer Main Guy

Lol I also think about WAA in the shower

Ryan DCMember since 2016
5 months ago
Reply to  Yer Main Guy

A bimodal peak wouldn’t affect WAR7 because the 7 seasons can be (and often are) non-consecutive.

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
5 months ago

Mozart muddies the waters here a little just because his own HoF career path was so atypical in so many ways at once — you have the “youngest player in the league” part, then the “compiler” credentials, and then on top of that the peak performance that really cements the case as an inner-circle guy.

It’s interesting to consider who are the de Groms of art: you have to look for a really abbreviated body of work that’s almost all first-rate, the “all killer, no filler” oeuvres. In music I think it might be Erik Satie? (Also matches as a late bloomer). The de Grom of poetry is pretty clearly T.S. Eliot.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
5 months ago

DeGrom is a bit like Bizet. Not a one hit wonder, but a relatively short career due to health and his biggest hit is spectacular.

I would comp Mozart to Mickey Mantle. Incredible front-loaded career where his brilliance was widely recognized and the standard that we judge contemporary players against today.

Although if you *really* want a too-close-to-home comp for Mozart you could go with Doc Gooden or Fernando Valenzuela.

MentholMember since 2014
5 months ago

Maybe Basquiat … ?

DavidMember since 2020
5 months ago
Reply to  Menthol

I was coming to say this!

formerly matt wMember since 2025
5 months ago

So the de Grom of painting would be Vermeer?

jtsnowdayMember since 2022
5 months ago

Which Jacob de Grom season is the equivalent of Old Possum’s Book of Practical Cats?

scottsjunk1981Member since 2021
5 months ago

I think switching to WAA from WAR has a lot to recommend it, but I don’t see the motivation for then averaging peak and career totals. Is someone who produces 2 WAA every year for 15 years a worse HOF candidate than someone who has a 5 year peak of 8 WAR seasons, and then washes out? Being that much better than average for that long is a form of excellence, even if that player was never in MVP/CY conversations.

In fact, my understanding was that the whole idea behind JAWS was that it was a corrective against compilers having inflated career totals. Unless I’m missing something, switching to WAA would remove Jaffe’s rationale for the structure.

SertoriusMember since 2023
5 months ago

I like this a lot but I think I might go even further. I view the Hall of Fame as the Hall of “Memorable”. Using WAA helps shows that someone with one 3 WAR season is much more memorable than someone with three 1 WAR seasons. But even more, I feel one 10 WAR season is much more memorable than five 4 WAR seasons (and certainly five 2 WAR seasons).

How do we capture that? Nothing as clean as JAWS or WAA, which is a big argument for them. It would have to be something like a 1/p score for a season where p is the percent of player-seasons with a higher WAR.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
5 months ago
Reply to  Sertorius

I think if I was going to come up with a measure that captures my own Hall of Fame thoughts it would be something like an average of WAR10, WAR5, and WAR2 (maybe WAR3). These capture career (WAR10), peak (WAR5), and transcendence (WAR2) while ignoring all those forgettable years where Ichiro and Pujols were a shell of their past selves.

Right now we have something a bit like career and peak, although I kind of think 7 years is too many for peak and taking the whole career leads to some weird stuff with compilers. (10 seasons also aligns nicely with the 10 season minimum requirement.) But we don’t have anything that captures transcendence, and it is one of the reasons why guys like Dick Allen took so long to get in.

And it would be especially important for pitchers. This whole thing about pitcher workloads being reduced and should we be reducing the requirements there is leading me to wonder why we haven’t inducted more starters in the Hall of Fame.

There’s a huge imbalance between hitters and pitchers in the Hall! Guys like Sam McDowell, Doc Gooden, Vida Blue, Cliff Lee, Ron Guidry, JR Richard, and others have transcendent seasons like DeGrom. Maybe the problem isn’t pitcher workloads, maybe its that we didn’t let enough guys in, and that if a guy puts up 15 fWAR or more in his two best pitching seasons (or 20 in their top 3) that they should get a huge bump. Having it be over two or three seasons would reduce the chances of guys like Ben Sheets or Mark Prior getting in on one transcendent year, but still reward guys for having them.

GreggMember since 2020
5 months ago

The narrative about deGrom’s lack of innings is always very simplistic – he just can’t stay healthy. The reality is slightly more complicated. Yes, he lost the majority of 4 consecutive seasons, partially because he kept coming down with elbow related injuries that weren’t enough to necessitate TJS. Ironically if his body broke more quickly, that 4 years shelved would likely have turned into 2. Outside of those 4 years, deGrom has actually be exceedingly durable.

The aspect that no one takes much time to talk about is that he broke into the majors at 26, partly because he wasn’t always a pitcher. If you subscribe to the “bullets left in the chamber” belief, deGrom’s “arm age” would be lower than someone who got into the majors earlier, say Clayton Kershaw, who is exactly 3 months older than deGrom.

Because of the arm age theory, I predict that deGrom will stay healthy the next few years and pitch into his early 40s and everyone will be dumbfounded each year he does it.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
5 months ago
Reply to  Gregg

2025 was the fifth time in DeGrom’s career that he’s made 25 starts.

GreggMember since 2020
5 months ago

It was also the fifth time he’s made 30 starts in a season.

Put another way, outside of the 4 year stretch I mentioned, deGrom has not missed more than 2 starts in a season except once (24 starts, 8 missed) in 2016.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
5 months ago
Reply to  Gregg

Here’s to DeGrom being pitching young, and solidifying his HoF case!

I genuinely do love greatness.

…but it’s more accurate to say he’s had a 3+COVID year stretch of being healthy and available across an 11+COVID year career.

Last edited 5 months ago by Cool Lester Smooth
TulkasMember since 2024
5 months ago

I think a good way of phrasing this same concept more simply is this: is Clayton Kershaw a hall of famer based on his peak quality alone? Because peak deGrom was just slightly better than Kershaw but really similar. I think most folks can get behind Kershaw being a HoF guy just on the quality of his best work, which should strengthen deGrom’s case.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
5 months ago
Reply to  Tulkas

DeGrom’s WAR7 is ten wins behind Kershaw’s, because DeGrom’s third best season wouldn’t be included in Kershaw’s total.

Hell, Kershaw’s WAR7 beats DeGrom’s career WAR.

No Pe
5 months ago

Is it helpful to think of it this way: There are not many players in Hall solely on long duration of mediocrity — because voters do care about greatness. But there are arguably too many folks on the outside who had superb peaks but short careers – and should they be in? I would put them in…

I could be favorably inclined toward “duration” if it is at a high but not MVP level… Like ten years of 5 WAR seasons but nothing in the MVP tier is another kind of “greatness”

Last edited 5 months ago by No Pe
Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
5 months ago
Reply to  No Pe

A Cole Hamels truther!

Join us!!!

Barney Coolio
5 months ago

Complilers: I, and a lot of other baseball fans, do daydream about a mythical compiler who reaches 3000 hits while being unspectacular, and reading the HOF debates about his career.

20 year career, ages 22-41, plays solid but unspectacular LF/RF/1b.

Lucks into a starting job at age 22 due to injured players on his team. Wins ROY due to weak competition. He leads Pittsburgh to a WS championship, and becomes “Mr. Pittsburgh.” Pittsburgh just keeps resigning him because he is willing to stay, the fans love him, and he is productive.

He does not play everyday like Cal Ripken Jr., but he is remarkably healthy, and starts about 156 games a year, and averages about a hit a game. He squeaks past 3000 hits in an unimpressive 110 game season at age 41, like Craig Biggio. Probably about 300 homers and 300 steals.

This might seem like a lot of factors coming together in one player, and it is. But why not? Is it so hard to imagine this happening? Just think of great players with 3000 hits, like Ripken or Jeter, but less good. Or good players who fell short of 3000 hits, but with more longevity like Nick Markakis or Johnny Damon.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
5 months ago
Reply to  Barney Coolio

Johnny Damon would be a fun case because if he had churned out a couple more years like 2010 and 2011 he’d have another 298 hits, putting him over 3000.

He also would also have about 48-49 fWAR, which is super borderline. And he would have done it while only making two all star teams and never once putting up an fWAR higher than 4.5.

I don’t think there’s another case quite like his in the last 30 something years. Baines and was super wrecked and played until he was 42, so it’s not like he quit early. Vizquel had plus defense.

Maybe Garret Anderson, who if he had put up league average batting lines in 2009-2010 like he did in 2007-2008 he’d only need 3 seasons to make it. He’d also probably have a career fWAR under 30.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
5 months ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Give Damon a 4 WAR baseline instead of 3.5 and he probably gets there…but then he’s in the Vladi range when it comes to career fWAR, and it’s a different convo.

Barney Coolio
5 months ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Johnny Damon was pretty ok in 2011 as a DH, ocasional 1b/of. I wish he had just went back to KC and asked for a team-friendly 2 year deal with maximum playing time. I am sure KC would have loved to do that.

Instead, Damon wanted to sign as a starter with a contender. At that point, he already had plenty of money, and 2 WS rings. I wish he had just said, “I need to put my head down, and crank out the 277 hits I need to reach 3000, at the age of 38 and 39.”

That was totally feasible. Instead, he signed with Cleveland after the season started, didn’t really get a spring training and was really bad in 2012. What could have been.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
5 months ago
Reply to  Barney Coolio

Issue is…time is undefeated.

Without that 4+ WAR baseline, you won’t stay rosterable long enough to hit those big round numbers.

Damon’s gotten the closest in recent memory from that archetype …but he was a 3.5 WAR guy who didn’t have the margin for decline to get those two more years as a regular.

ForrestMember since 2016
5 months ago

Imagine if De Grom pitched an additional 1000 to 1500 average innings? But he didn’t. A good comp is Frank Tanana who had a 4-year streak of 27.8 WAR and 18.3 WAA by the age of 23, while pitching 241 to 288 IP per season for bad Angels teams. Not quite as high a peak as De Grom but darn good. He then suffered arm problems but pitched as a junk baller for 16 additional seasons that were very average, ending his career with 57.1 WAR and 19.5 WAA in 4188 IP (35th all-time). Those additional average (but above replacement) years have real value in the real world of baseball. De Grom, like Tanana, had 4 great individual peak years but he simply doesn’t have a large enough body of work to be in the HOF.

Thatguy47
5 months ago
Reply to  Forrest

Degrom has like twice as much WAR & WAA as Tanana had in his peak.

tung_twista
5 months ago

One additional argument that I would make for deGrom is that he was the most dominant pitcher we have seen since Pedro at the turn of the century.
From 2018 to 2021, deGrom boasts ERA- 48 and FIP- 51.

Here is the complete list of individual pitching seasons with ERA- under 54 and FIP- under 57 since 1990. (excluding 2020)

2014 Clayton Kershaw ERA- 51 FIP- 49
2009 Zack Greinke ERA- 48 FIP- 54
2003 Pedro Martinez ERA- 48 FIP- 51
2002 Pedro Martinez ERA- 50 FIP- 54
2000 Pedro Martinez ERA- 35 FIP- 48
1999 Pedro Martinez ERA- 42 FIP- 31
1997 Roger Clemens ERA- 45 FIP- 50
1995 Randy Johnson ERA- 52 FIP- 45
1995 Greg Maddux ERA- 39 FIP- 52
1994 Greg Maddux ERA- 37 FIP- 54
1990 Roger Clemens ERA- 47 FIP- 55

For reference, best seasons by current and future 1st turn HoFers by ERA-/FIP-
2022 Justin Verlander ERA- 46 FIP- 63
2017 Max Scherzer ERA- 57 FIP- 66
2008 CC Sabathia ERA- 63 FIP- 68
1996 John Smoltz ERA- 69 FIP- 60 (as a starting pitcher)

The best pitcher in the world always exists.
But there are levels to it.
And for 3+ years, deGrom reached a stratosphere we have not witnessed for almost two decades.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
5 months ago
Reply to  tung_twista

He pitched 581 innings during that span.

Pedro had 47/52 across 1408 innings from ‘97-‘03…and 45/45 across 746 innings from ‘99-‘02.

Separately, Kershaw put up 51/54 over 816 innings from 2013-16.

Ostensibly RidiculousMember since 2020
5 months ago

If you add hypothetical innings to DeGrom, than you need to add hypothetical innings to everyone and re-evaluate

lavarnway
5 months ago

Interesting article, but like someone else said, there is great value in availability. deGrom can’t help the team from the bench. Sure, Morris never provided that elite value but he was on the mound for 25+ starts for 15 seasons in a row providing solid value. Don Sutton same way. Never won a Cy Young but you could pencil him in for 250 innings at better than league average every season.

marinmccoveysMember since 2026
5 months ago

Great piece, thanks Dan!

david k
5 months ago

DeGrom was a Mozart on the mound, a symphony of excellence, a maestro at carving up opposing hitters and making them look just plain bad. For several seasons in his prime, if I had a big game and could pick any MLB pitcher to start it, I would have been hard pressed to pick anyone else. He was supremely dominant, in practically any way you want to measure it. I think he was great enough for long enough to belong in the Hall, and this article puts things in perspective that if you water down DeGrom’s career with pedestrian numbers, rather than blanks when he was injured, he would have put up HoF numbers, and that just shows how dominant he actually was, that it would have taken a TON of water to water down his career to non-HOF.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
5 months ago
Reply to  david k

You’re not “watering down” DeGrom’s career with average numbers – you’re boosting his teams by giving them an legit MLB #4 during the games he missed, rather than AAAA types and bullpen games.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
5 months ago
Reply to  Dan Szymborski

I didn’t downvote you, to be clear!

That said – I believe a certain level of availability is an order qualifier for “greatness.”

As a Billy Wagner stalwart…I don’t think DeGrom has passed that threshold.

Yet.

david k
5 months ago
Reply to  Dan Szymborski

Dan, can’t argue with that!

david k
5 months ago

There’s at least a couple different ways to look at this. First thing first: what criteria should determine HoF inclusion? Obviously there’s no complete agreement on this. Is how valuable he is to his team’s ability to win overall more important than a moderate number of years of sheer dominance? This isn’t a MVP vote, where we are talking about “value” (and even that is in the eye of the beholder) but we are talking about the Hall of FAME Anyway, you are both right and wrong in your response to me. Yes, you ARE “watering down” his stats to show how, even if he put up those pedestrian numbers instead of zeros, he’d STILL have amazing overall stats, which is one of the main points of the article. It puts his greatness into a certain perspective that maybe some didn’t consider. And, yes, the fact that he wasn’t available to pitch when he’s hurt causes the team to have to insert other options that could possibly be worse than the pedestrian numbers that the article used to water down DeGrom’s stats. But since the Mets have mostly been relatively pitching-rich through most of DeGrom’s career with them, their 6th and 7th options were probably better than that of other teams. So, if you are going to use your argument in the SPECIFIC sense on HIS team’s ability to win, then this would have to be considered too. If you just want to talk about generalities, then sure, replacing him with 6th and 7th options reduces the team’s ability to win significantly. But I am not sure if that’s a top criterial for HoF or no HoF. That’s certainly a matter of opinion.

I am just disputing your categorically incorrect notion that you are “NOT watering down” his career, because that most definitely IS ONE aspect of the equation.

keenejMember since 2024
5 months ago

Let’s start with the Mozart comparison. He’s been brought up before when people want to throw career length out the window for…reasons. Mozart was clearly one of the world’s best composers, and a lot of famous works were made by him. He also (tragically) died young. I am not a music aficionado but the implication from what I can tell is that clearly sometimes you’re so great that even a lack of a body of work makes up for a dearth of material. Fair enough, I think there’s a kernel of a point here

Except sports aren’t like music. Sports are a series of events: they happen, and then never happen again. Music is something you can listen to repeatedly over and over again until the end of time. Therefore in music: the cream will rise to the top, so to speak, and in the human imagination 99% of music (even the music made by the best) is ignored. I would bet a vast majority of people, even today, could not name more than 10-15 Beatles songs.

No Mozart didn’t have as long a career as anyone else, but the percentage of total music that’s still listened to from his era is dominated by Mozart. The same is not true for sports. You can’t replay Doc Gooden’s 1985 over and over again. It happened, that’s it. if we just stocked the Hall of Fame with players who were very good for brief periods of time: the Hall of Fame would grow to a massive number of players, and the honor would become meaningless. That’s why career length has always been a part of the equation.

Career length is also not like slop music nobody listened to. It, in many ways, has value. No Jack Morris wasn’t as ‘great’ at his best as Jacob deGrom, but Jack Morris as a mediocre pitcher at 37 still helped the Blue Jays make (and win the World Series). That season had tangible value I can quantify. The same is not true of the random track that Paul McCartney released 30 years after The Beatles which nobody listened to or can remember.

I like WAR and WAA, I think they’re both incredibly useful statistics. However, they are also limited and only tell you so much. I do not believe that Chris Sale is the 24th best pitcher of all time. Not even close (I don’t think Don Sutton is the 34th best pitcher either, my bias is not just against modern pitchers). I prefer more holistic approaches which include WAR, WAA and JAWs but aren’t entirely dependent on it.

I also think the recent push to ‘redefine’ starting pitchers in the HOF has been a conclusion searching for a justification, not the other way around. People decided Felix is a HOFer and are now trying to justify it (it’s why Andy Pettitte is rising too: hard to justify Felix without justifying Andy). I dislike degrading standards, especially just to justify one inclusion.

As for Jacob deGrom: I have a very difficult time concluding a guy who has not yet reached 2,000 IP is really worthy of the HOF. Quantity is not everything, but quantity has quality of its own. deGrom has hurt his team as much by his absence as he has by his presence and that impacts the game too.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
5 months ago
Reply to  keenej

Well said, on all fronts.

david k
5 months ago
Reply to  keenej

Meh, this still doesn’t convince me that someone who was purely dominant for a very significant amount of time isn’t HoF worthy, but clearly we have different opinions on what HoF worthiness means. And I think BOTH opinions are valid.

3cardmontyMember since 2025
5 months ago

I think both measures have to be considered. I think longevity and durability may be underappreciated in HOF debates these days, and WAR captures those. WAA is good for capturing peak value.

A point in favor of modern “compilers” is that replacement level in the modern game is certainly higher than it was in earlier eras, especially before integration. If you fiddle with the replacement level dials to adjust for segregation, it changes the landscape in both eras quite a bit.

My problem with JAWS is actually an excessive focus on the average. I much prefer to focus on the HOF borderline, i.e., did the player have one of the top 281 careers of all time. With JAWS, a player like Bobby Abreu is who clearly above the borderline but below the average gets consigned to “ah he’s below the standard, it’s a morass, who cares.” So I would similarly object to shifting the focus of individual cases to emphasize the average exclusively.

All that said, I do think deGrom is a Hall of Famer, and I love any system in which Pete Rose suffers as much as he does here.

Baseball4ever
5 months ago

I dunno, maybe it’s merely a terminology difference, but I tend to think of it in terms of IMPACT, whereas you use the word PEAK, to me, those things are a tad different. Also, I still don’t think you can quite compare eras directly even with the new age metrics, precisely because it was such a vastly different mindset, game, and sport science and technology. Third, I think the one big name you forgot to mention, that would help you sort this out, is none other than the 12-year career of Sandy Koufax. The beauty of it is you can literally divide his career in half, the first six years being, for the lack of a better word – sucky, and the last 6, well, what do you call it? – the Babe Ruth of pitching (except the Babe also pitched quite spectacularly too, so…..?)

1st six years: W/L 36 – 40, 691.2 IP, with a 4.10 ERA, 6.8 total WAR, 1.1 WAR a season average!!!! mundane at best.

last six years: W/L 129 – 47, 1632.2 IP with a 2.19 ERA, 46.6 WAR, or almost 8 WAR per year.

Then of course, there is the zero all-star games the first 6 years to going 6 for 6 in all-star games to end his career. It is truly a night and day example, ripe for exploration of your idea.

However, in Jacob De Grom’s particular case, I still do not think he should be in the HOF.

david k
5 months ago
Reply to  Baseball4ever

Koufax came to my mind as well. But I drew the opposite conclusion than you did as a result. Funny how that works!

Thatguy47
5 months ago

Man f Degrom, real ones are on the Karl Spooner for HoF bandwagon.

Tom RhoadsMember since 2020
5 months ago

Coincidentally, as I began reading this, Mozart’s horn concerto #4 (K.495) was playing on my radio (Alan Civil / Acad. St Martin in the Fields / Marriner)

Eddie McKennaMember since 2020
5 months ago

Compilers are awesome. Especially today’s starting pitcher compilers. Cabrera’s is a different case.