Jarred Kelenic Keeps Coming Up Empty
In the days leading up to the trade deadline, Jarred Kelenic earned himself a mention in Jay Jaffe’s corner outfield replacement-level killers, a series that analyzes the players who are dragging down contending teams. The idea is to identify positions of need for potential trades to come, but Kelenic’s struggles in the majors weren’t going to force the team to make a deal. Instead, as Jay put it, “this should probably be a sink-or-swim situation unless he’s totally overwhelmed.”
Kelenic has already been in the spotlight because of the Mariners gaming his service time; his performance since his promotion has put him back in it. He got the call on May 13, but simply didn’t hit: In his first 23 games over a total of 92 plate appearances, he slashed .096/.185/.193. He collected just eight hits total and had come up empty in his last 44 plate appearances when the Mariners optioned him back to Triple-A in early June.
After a successful stint at Tacoma — a 137 wRC+ — Kelenic was brought back to Seattle. This time around, the results have been a bit better, but they’re still ugly overall, as he’s gone from a 10 wRC+ in that first stint to a .181/.263/.315 line and 65 wRC+ since his second promotion. Through Tuesday’s action, he’s up to a 45 wRC+ and -1.1 WAR in 64 games:
| ML Stint | PA | AVG | OBP | SLG | BB% | K% | wOBA | wRC+ |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| First | 92 | .096 | .185 | .193 | 8.7% | 28.3% | .177 | 10 |
| Second | 167 | .181 | .263 | .315 | 9.6% | 30.5% | .258 | 65 |
Even with the improved numbers since his return from Triple-A, Kelenic is still running the 11th-lowest wRC+ among qualified hitters in that time. He’s still not hitting well. But while there may not be one answer for why he is struggling, I believe that there’s a huge plate discipline problem that isn’t entirely captured in the walk and strikeout rates alone.
In today’s game, it is possible, though admittedly difficult, to succeed with a strikeout rate approaching 30%, but to compensate, you need to hit for power. There are 10 qualified hitters with a strikeout rate north of 30% and who have an ISO better than league-average, with seven of them boasting a mark at least 30% better. Kelenic has a .121 ISO so far, which ranks almost 30% below average (71 ISO+). His .131 xISO doesn’t suggest that he’s been unlucky in this regard, either. He just hasn’t made high-quality contact. (It is worth noting that he has at least average power, earning a 60 for raw and a 50 for in-game in our preseason Mariners prospect list.)
Without the power, the strikeout rate sticks out like a sore thumb, and there aren’t enough walks to compensate. That’s not the end of the story, though. For Kelenic, it’s less about the top-line numbers and more about the process. The difference between his in- and out-of-zone swing rates isn’t good, but it isn’t egregious either. His contact rates are all below-average, but not quite Patrick Wisdom levels. But there is a huge underlying problem, one that ties together the lack of the power and the plethora of strikeouts: When Kelenic swings, he does no damage. He’s one of the worst hitters in baseball when he swings. If the pitcher gets him to swing, they’ve won.
In fairness to Kelenic, when pitchers get hitters to swing, they generally win; hitters have been worth about 2.5 runs below-average per 100 swings. That makes intuitive sense when you think about it. While hitters can only do the most damage when swinging, they also make so many outs, whether in the field or with a strikeout, that pitchers benefit when a hitter chooses to take a hack. The potential reward of a swing is certainly quite high, but the cost is much higher.
Kelenic takes this to an extreme. When he swings, there’s almost no reward: He has been worth -6.3 runs per 100 swings this season, the third-worst mark in baseball among hitters with at least 300 hacks. Being able to succeed while swinging is one of the most important factors in terms of total production. There’s a very high correlation — an R² of 0.714 — between the value generated when hitters swing and their seasonal wOBA:

This isn’t some groundbreaking study: Hitters who do more damage when they swing will have higher wOBAs. But what we see here is something slightly beyond what we see in wOBA. Since wOBA is dependent only on the plate appearance-ending pitches, this shows us something more about the process. If you’re not doing damage when you swing, you’re going to struggle to be a productive big league player. That’s what’s happening with Kelenic.
I compared this to the explanatory power of takes on wOBA. The correlation between take run value per 100 pitches and wOBA was much lower, with an R2 of 0.178. Again, this makes sense, as there’s only one positive outcome that can result from taking a pitch: a walk. And while each incremental ball in an at-bat increases the average hitter’s wOBA, it’s the final pitch — the one on which the hitter swings in all situations except walks and looking strikeouts — that creates the outcome. Better hitters are inherently better because when they choose to swing, they do the most damage.
As mentioned, Kelenic has been worth -6.3 runs per 100 swings. His +1.9 runs per 100 takes ranks slightly better but still isn’t sterling; it’s in the 22nd percentile. That latter figure is probably not as much of a concern as the former. If he starts hitting the cover off of the ball, he’ll likely walk more as pitchers begin to nibble. The walks will be more frequent, and thus the takes will be more valuable.
Still, it’s not that his quality of contact is that bad; he has a .342 xwOBA, which is worse than the major league average (.363) but not as bad as his overall numbers would suggest. But if you look at his expected wOBA per swing rather than by batted ball, it becomes clear why he’s struggled so much this season. Kelenic ranks in the 32nd percentile in xwOBA on contact but in the 11th percentile in xwOBA on swings.

Unsurprisingly, there’s a strong relationship between these two metrics. What’s important here is the residual; as you can see, Kelenic has a better xwOBA on contact than would be expected given his xwOBA on swings. His residual ranks in the 84th percentile, suggesting once again that poor swing decisions are the culprit dragging down his overall numbers. That’s not to say that better discipline will fix all of his problems. I’m still concerned by his quality of contact, given that it, too, is below league-average. But when you combine that with even worse plate discipline, you get yourself a really tough start to your big league career.
It’s still very likely that Kelenic will be a successful big league player; concluding otherwise based on 259 plate appearances at the start of his career is silly. But given the major bumps he’s run into so far, it might be time to ask what changes need to be made to tap fully into the superstar prospect status. A good start would be by doing more damage when he swings, something that could begin by simply taking more productive swings in general.
Devan Fink is a Contributor at FanGraphs. You can follow him on Twitter @DevanFink.
I think he’s still going to be really good, but I’m also really surprised how poor his defensive grades look. Is it still small sample size? I know defense can be hard to quantify, but he’s grading really bad in both CF and RF, and that’s…alarming? Is this among one of the biggest rookie flops in recent memory? At least for a highly touted one?
For what its worth, Statcast has him as an average defender and even plus in CF.
https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/jarred-kelenic-672284?stats=statcast-r-fielding-mlb
Keep in mind that Statcast does not do a great job with the outfield. In the past it didn’t even include throwing and it still might not. And if you look at what is really dragging Kelenic down in UZR it’s his arm.
Statcast is awesome in the infield but for the outfield it’s more directly comparable to range.
I wonder if the AAA West (previously PCL) numbers shouldn’t be looked at a little skeptically. Kieboom, Adell, Kelenic…three examples don’t necessarily prove anything, but maybe the berserk numbers from the west aren’t truly reflective of capability. All three have serious, serious strikeout issues that did not show up in the minors.
I guess you could include Cal Raleigh in this group as well, so far.
Do they have humidors over there?
Jo Adell has shown real improvement and signs of life this year. The PCL numbers are absolutely silly and probably can either be dismissed or heavily heavily weighted in projections but 2021 Jo Adell looks like a major leaguer—and possibly on a path toward a really good one—while 2020 Adell looked like Kelenic does now.
Sorry, could you point to where Jo Adell has looked like a major leaguer? I get that he’s better than last year but the numbers I’m seeing don’t exactly paint a picture of a guy on the path to really good. He seems to hit the ball softly if he hits it at all. Maybe there’s something that needs to be seen but the numbers don’t paint quite as rosy a picture.
Wasn’t the PCL always considered a pro-offense league? Vegas was definitely always a launching pad, and as I recall ABQ was a big offense park too. Lots of hot, dry ballparks at high elevation.
This is true. And while I’ve only loosely followed it myself, I believe that reports are saying it’s gotten even worse the last few years with ball changes. The sentiment now, at least, is closer to the league as a whole being a launchpad as opposed to merely hitter-friendly.
I would say Adell was always high risk based on contact issues in and before AAA. He still has time to turn it around. but it shouldn’t be surprising if he doesn’t. Kelenic’s issue is just weird as he hasn’t had contact issues or power issues before, and then to struggle as long as he has. Kyle Tucker and Bregman had rough starts in majors as well, but that was only the 1st 70-100 plate appearances.
His defensive numbers in CF, per Clay Davenport, were terrible. If anything his performance in CF has been better than expected…it’s in left field that he’s been really bad.
Maybe he should lean into the Nick Johnson approach and just never ever swing.
1) It is increasingly hard to accuse the Mariners of service time manipulation. Kelenic had exceedingly little upper-minors experience, and is not currently demonstrating a capable hit tool at the big league level. Perhaps the agita about service time manipulation meant he got promoted sooner than he was ready.
2) If I’m reading it correctly, Devan is arguing that Kelenic neither chooses when to swing judiciously, nor does he make good contact when he does hit the ball. Which leaves open the question of what exactly he does well? But I’m more interested in – is this just a majors problem, where he’s having trouble adjusting? Or did he exhibit these same flaws in the minors but was able to overcome them somehow, and at the majors those flaws have been exploited? Without looking at the data, it has to be the former, right? You don’t put together a 137 wRC+ if you don’t hit the ball well when you make contact and also don’t make good contact. So why is Kelenic’s performance in the majors so much worse?
You can say that they manipulated his service time and he flopped at the same time. They’re not mutually exclusive statements. They can retrospectively say “guess he wasn’t ready” and be correct, but the fact that he was “working on his defense” or whatever the excuse was until early May is still evidence that there was likely some intent of manipulation, especially in lieu of those ownership comments over the winter.
The evidence don’t support this. This argument would be convincing if Kelenic had languished in the upper minors for a significant time. The fact is, he had played only 20 games in AA prior to this season. It sucks that 2020 was a lost year, but playing scrimmage games clearly isn’t the same as real competition. There was never any evidence that Kelenic was wasting time in the minors to manipulate his service time before this year. It was never a situation like Kris Bryant. Kelenic‘s struggles this year just add credence to the obvious: a promotion this year was pretty aggressive, and far from manipulation.
This whole narrative needs to go away. Kevin Mather is an idiot, but his comments on this issue were taken out of context. The M’s filled their taxi squad last year with prospects, not guys who were likely to be promoted. Instead of filling the roster with MLB-ready guys to supplement the big league roster, they used it for player development. When Mather said players on that taxi squad weren’t going to be promoted, it was because that was never the plan. Those guys just were not ready.
“He’ll be in left field in April.”
Why the wait? More flyballs and cage time at the alternate site? At the same location the kid has basically lived for how long?
Nope, nothing to see here…
Previous post was hilarious. I was here when 99% of everyone was bitching about Kelenik and service time… he gets called up and demonstrates absolutely clear as day that he was not at all ready to help a team in a pennant trace… then not only does anyone say “I was just wrong”, they double down haha. Hilarious.
I don’t blame the M’s for throwing the kid out there and giving it a shot, but Its laughable to suggest they didn’t do it early enough. LOL
It’s not exclusive to Kelenic. Anyone who had the gall to question the Lindor signing was downvoted into oblivion.
One would think that among the baseball websites, Fangraph readers would have a bit more ability to see through popular narratives and cut against the grain.
Its more laughable that people believe the Mariners didnt play a service time game after nobody can explain why the Mariners had a date set for him to be called up. Why is this difficult?
I fail to see how not calling up a player with 90 odd at bats in AA is playing a service time manipulation game. This is a rebuild year for the Mariners. They said as much. They want to see their young players. They said as much. Kelenic is part of the plan for this year, but there is no way he was kicking down the door and forcing a promotion.
The Mariners president said on record that they will be holding him back for service time considerations. Why is this being debated?
Not what he said. His words verbatim:
On the minor league side, Jarred Kelenic, we’ve been talking about him for a year and a half now. He’ll be in left field in April. He’s a 21-year-old player who, um, is quite confident. We offered him a long-term deal, six-year deal for substantial money with options to go farther. After pondering it for several days and talking to the union, he’s turned us down and in his words, he’s going to bet on himself. He thinks after six years, he’ll be such a star player that the 7th, 8th, 9th year options will be under value. He might be right, he might be right, we offered and he turned us down.
Q: I’m a little confused about the Kelenic kid. My recollection is that he’s a top prospect we have out there, and I’m a little confused about your statements about them earlier. It sounded like you wasn’t happy with [the] contract opportunity long term. Is he in the system, is he going to be in the system, or is, is he actually gone, or going?
KM: He’s in our minor league system…In 2019, we promoted him to AA. He is a very good player. And quite frankly we think he’s going to be a superstar. We control his major league career for six years. And after six years, he’ll be a free agent. We would like him to get a few more at-bats in the minor leagues. Probably AAA Tacoma for a month, and then he will likely be in left field at T-Mobile {ark for the next six or seven years, and then he’ll be a free agent…He won’t commit beyond his free agent years. I wouldn’t say he’s unhappy, he appreciates the offer, he just refused to sign it. He thinks he’s going to be that good. And he thinks he will be a very well-paid player after six years, and I think he might be right. Hopefully with us, but we’ll see where we end up…he’s not unhappy, I guess I would say he’s unhappy that he hasn’t played at T-Mobile Park, but he thought he should have been in left field at T-Mobile Park, three years ago. I mean, he does not lack confidence.
“He will be in left field in April.”
You must have missed this sentence. Why would they have a set date?
“Kelenic neither chooses when to swing judiciously, nor does he make good contact when he does hit the ball. Which leaves open the question of what exactly he does well?”
those two things are likely related, though- he doesn’t make frequent or hard contact when he swings *because* he doesn’t know how to identify pitches he should be swinging at. although that doesn’t make the problems any easier to fix.
JC, if we’ve learned anything we’ve learned dominant narratives (owners always suck) don’t need data. Especially when ownership says dopey things….
Are there any success stories for players that look so lost at the plate in their first 200 PA’s? Using the FG stats page, filtering to rookies in the last 100 years and excluding pitchers, Kelenic is in the 9th percentile in wRC+.
Brandon Inge and Mark Belanger are in the 1st percentile, and they accumulated 14.5 and 34.5 fWAR, with a 81 and 71 wRC+ (respectively).
Matt Williams is a profile to aspire to in this regard; he had a 50 wRC+ in his first 200 PA’s, and he ended his career with 44.8 fWAR and a wRC+ of 110.
Ben Zobrist had a 27 wRC+ over his first 303 PA. He was the best player in the AL two years later. (44 over his first 198 PA)
This is not a comp whatsoever but it does happen
Buxton?
I looked at split seasons and caught a couple of guys who did poorly after getting cups of coffee; Jackie Bradley Jr. followed up 107 PA at 68 wRC+ with 423 at 46 wRC+, right where Kelenic is. Then he had two good seasons with the bat. But Kelenic’s defense is probably not up with Bradley’s.
Brandon Phillips had 36 good PA with 106 wRC+ and then 393 PA with 46 wRC+, and he didn’t really stick in the majors for the next two years, then had a decent career with the bat.
So basically where JBJ is at now.
Inge and Belanger (especially) aren’t great comps because they provided a ton of value from great defense at key positions…heck if Belanger could only have matched Inge’s 81 wRC+ he might have snuck into Cooperstown.
Looking only at OFs, both Kevin Bass (wRC+ 45) and Joe Rudi (wRC+ 42) had good careers after starting off worse than Kelenic. Interestingly enough, there’s also Jo Adell, who has posted a career wRC+ of 42 so far (he’s still rookie eligible), but has done a bit better at all levels in 2021 than last year.
Javier Baez is one. He was written off after his first horrible half of a season. Actually, as TON of great players (Trout and Arod for instance) struggle when they first arrive in the big leagues
Are you thinking of some other Javier Baez, besides the one who is terrible?
Yes. I’m thinking of the JB that totaled 13 WAR from 2018-2019. Isn’t that good? He’s given about 5+ years of league average offense at SS, with lots of value in other areas. He’s a good player.
check out the woba column next
.325? Career and this year. Says the same thing I said, doesn’t it? “league average offense”. For a player, not for a SS.
He wasn’t nearly as bad, but Jose Ramirez struggled badly for two years before a gradual breakout to become a superstar. His issue was a lack of power, though, as he’s always exhibited great plate discipline.
Any particular reason for xwOBA per swings? Doesn’t that just give you xwOBAcon plus swinging strikeouts?
Yeah I wasn’t sure what that could possibly mean when most swings don’t result in results
For some reason, those numbers remind me of Brinson.
And other highly touted prospects who rushed to the majors and thudded so badly it took years to get even to mediocrity.
Makes me wonder if a sports psychologist might be of help.
The last man any player wants to be comped to
There is a real good argument that Brinson was rushed. He played a full-half year of rookie ball, a full year in A ball, parts of two years in A+, parts of two seasons in AA, and parts of two seasons in AAA. Basically, a full season at each spot. He had a lot of minor league seasoning, he just hasn’t hit… until recently.
Very recently?
After 1000 career ABs he’s still at .242/.285/.423 which is an improvement over his career numbers of .199/.250/.327 but the way he’s going he’s going to hit arbitration before he hits replacement value.
(You’d think he’s a Cleveland of prospect. And they specialize in producing 4th and fifth OF.)
Agreed. He still sucks.
very very recently – Brinson has a 114 wRC+ since the All-Star break, so there’s that.
But since he’s going to hit arbitration in 2022, it’ll be a close race.
I do find that the narrative here has been a little disingenuous in that people both argue that the Mariners were inappropriately messing with his service time, and acknowledge that Kelenic is clearly not ready to produce in the majors even months later. I understand that this comes from that doofus exec with the Mariners actually acknowledging that they were doing it, but it’s hard to really pillory them for it when the guy is putting up a low double digit wRC.
*Brodie van Wagenen cackles*
Even if Kelenic turns out to be a bust it was a bad process and taking on the vast majority of Cano’s contract with five years left on it was insanity and cost them being able to extend Wheeler. Oh and they also didn’t need a second baseman.
All true, but they didn’t trade for a 2B, they traded for a closer and took the 2B. Still a disaster, but it really should be called the Díaz-Kelenic trade, not the Cano-Kelenic deal.
Kevin Mather is a moron, but the following statement tells the story; “He will be up in April”. This is the Mariners admitting that they’re wating until the end of April and why is that? Because they believe he’ll benefit from a few more weeks at the alternate site? Doesn’t pass the sniff test fellas…
It does. Its easier to argue that he should have been called up in June or July. This is why fans should stay out of it 1) We dont know anything, generally and.. more importantly 2) When we are wrong, we still argue that we were right.
It cannot be argued logically that he should have been called up sooner. Would you have preferred a season in which Kelenik played 162 games, while hitting .142 with 200 Ks? haha
All this because people who dont know anything, think a kid they don’t know, should get imaginary money that he may never get . . . over every other concern. Why in LORDS NAME would the Seattle Mariners want to have this poopy season count as one of his six, rather than one when he is 28 or 29?
Very myopic thinking to fixate on “justice” or whatever you think thaty would be. Comical, honestly.
But no one (including the mariners) knew he would struggle this badly. That’s not why they didn’t call him up. If it was, he still needed more time.
They may have. Its called a calculated risk. I think that the fact the M’s were actually playing games that mattered has contributed to the risk he would do poorly, and his struggles. Absent the service time “issue” it would have been easy to justify him playing much more games in the minors. Its hard to know exactly what baseball people there thought he was ready to step in and help.
Ive never been a huge fan and thought he was rushed. He looks like a baseball star based on appearance, we are human and judgement calls often come down to this crap. I still dont get why folks think the mariners didnt hold him back for service time, when they had a date set for his arrival before spring training 🙂
Thank you. Him being bad doesnt excuse the Mariners from holding him back for service time reasons. Why is this difficult? People just like to argue here, youll always be rewarded with a few thumbs from familiers.
It does, and also they do not need an “excuse”. Did the Mariners make the rules? No. In fact, they may have been influenced to call him up sooner than they would have liked to, and again… sooner then he deserved to.
Then please explain this: “He will be in left field in April”.
Good luck pal!
Its a reasonable compromise. The M’s clearly were RIGHT in valuing team control over a player who is NOT HELPING THEM. Why would they want to shave off a prime year of control of a player who may be really good in 5-6 years, for a year of a player who helps them lose games in 2021? They literally could have a good argument for holding him back until April of 2022. Not even joking.
They gave him a shot, because they had a chance at the wild card, but there is no argument that he would have helped them win games earlier in the year, when he didn’t help them after he was called up.
Why should the M’s have to hide something that is the plainly obvious choice to make?
1) Silly point, but nonetheless accurate: He didn’t say THIS April. Could be next April. He also didn’t say WHEN in April. He also didn’t say WHERE. Maybe he meant LF in AAA.
2) Better point: you do realize he and/or the organization may have intended to have him called up in April (maybe at the very beginning even) but, god forbid, changed their minds?
Mather’s comments are evidence of nothing, except a desire to have Kelenic on the 26-man in the near future, possibly April.
his max ev is pretty decent. it’s just that he’s not barreling up the ball frequently when he does make contact. yea, seems like a case of just being bad.
I’m curious about Kevin Newman, aka that dot all the way on the bottom or maybe the left, I bet.
He’s not interesting because he’s a bad player on a nowhere team, but:
Among qualified batters his K% is lowest by a healthy margin, 7.6% to David Fletcher’s 9.0%.
Among qualified hitters his wRC+ is lowest by an even healthier margin, 50 to Elvis Andrus’s 63.
(If you drop the threshold to 200 PA Nick Madrigal’s K% is close to his and there are a few players with worse wRC+, obviously most players who hit that poorly don’t get 450 PA.)
What is Newman doing? Never walking, of course, but also obviously doing jack squat when he makes contact, which is most of the time.
Lol, Ben had an article a few months ago with a formula for “interesting” players, and made a crack about Newman being on the list of most “interesting” players based on his formula. It seemed that Newman was managing to be many std deviations off average on all the chosen categories, just in a bad direction.
Good to know he’s still consistent in carving out his brand.
Here it is! https://blogs.fangraphs.com/tyler-oneill-two-true-outcome-king/
It’s not even that all his deviations are bad–two out of seven are good (speed and K rate), and contact would be good if he did anything with his contact. Looking at the z-scores, he’s David Fletcher if David Fletcher never ever got a hit on a ball in play.
Here’s this, too:
https://blogs.fangraphs.com/unpacking-the-impact-of-foul-balls-on-strikeouts/
Newman is top ten in not whiffing when he swings and first by a lot in not fouling off when he swings. He just loves to hit the ball into play, at a fielder.
From BB-Ref, here are Newman’s sOPS+ splits this year on balls in play (sOPS+ is the player’s OPS+ as a % of the league’s OPS+ for that split):
Ground Balls: 68
Line Drives: 43
Fly Balls: -38 (that is indeed a negative sign).
And by direction:
Pull: 95
Middle: 6
Oppo: 5
If he could manage to foul off more of those two strike pitches he’s dumping into play, he’d be a much better hitter. But, his K rate would likely edge up to the point where we’d no longer have any reason to be talking about him.
he should spend the offseason hanging out with Tony Kemp, who does not hit the ball with much authority but works great ABs and seemingly has an excellent grasp of the strike zone
Dustin Ackley 2.0 (or DJ Peterson or John Mayberry or Alex Jackson or…). For whatever success the Mariners have developing pitchers, it hasn’t carried over to the position player side of things. You expect attrition among the pitchers, but this is a team that trades for “can’t miss” position prospects or takes “the best pure hitter in the draft” and turns them into… remember that guy? Unless they trade them away to develop elsewhere — Adam Jones, Brad Miller, Chris Taylor, etc. Some of them got promoted too early (Mike Zunino), some got picked for the wrong reasons (Jeff Clement) and some got hurt (Kyle Lewis) but over the past twenty years the one real position player success for the Mariners is Kyle Seager, and his success (like his draft pick) feels almost like a an accident. That the M’s haven’t been back to the playoffs over those same 20 years is likely not a coincidence.
I’d say that they have had success developing Crawford, who has solidified his spot as an everyday Gold Glove SS when he was less than certain to be that when he arrived. Much of the credit is given to Perry Hill who is a well thought of infield guru. Haniger had not done much in Arizona before he arrived. France was buried in SD and has been very productive at SEA. They plucked Nola out of nowhere and turned him into a desirable catcher/1B. Murphy was another castoff who became a 3+win player in 2019.
IMO you can’t castigate the Ms for not developing Ackley and fail to credit them with Seager’s success given they were drafted in the same year (drafting him was an accident??).
Sure, they have had a lot of misses, but let’s not forget the ones that turned out.
Joser is a long time salty M’s fan, know the handle from when Dave Cameron wrote at U.S.S. Mariner
Ya got me!
Crawford has the same wRC+ that he had with Philadelphia, so I’m not sure they’ve “developed” him at all.
Crawford had all of 225 AB with PHI. He went from a meh defensive player to a Gold Glove candidate. Development on the defensive side of the ball is valuable at SS.
As already partially pointed out, this is highly disingenuous. Not only has it been widely known that Crawford’s growth defensive defensively has greatly outweighed his offensive development, but it’s also disingenuous to draw his development timeline the way you arbitrarily chose to.
First 225 (two less-than-half seasons with PHI): 90
First 621 MLBPA (through first [mostly] full season): wRC+ of 88
Next 786 (as of FG data as of the time of this post): wRC+ of 95
Crawford has indeed gone through natural development as a hitter. He’s no world-banger as a hitter (and absolutely no one claimed as such), but he has indeed grown.
Seager was only scouted by the M’s because he was on the same UNC team as Ackley; they took him two rounds later. Former M’s scouting director McNamara and his staff get credit for noticing Seager, sure, but they might not have picked up on him at all if he’d played at a different school. And as a senior on a great team from a big school, he was mostly a finished product when they got him… like Ackley was supposed to be.
Cmon, that’s a narrative created out of speculation that does not make sense. I for one assume that third round picks in the MLB draft are well known to every single team’s scouting department. The idea of “noticing” a player by luck who is a college senior only because you are scouting his teammate might make sense for a 10th round pick (or a HS player), but a third round pick? Not at all likely.
Also, how can you criticize Ms for not developing Ackley and in the same breath say they did not develop Seager, when they were both college products. Just seems like you are trying to criticize each result.
Ackley was a nearly finished product and — in spite of the assertions from many over the years — was actually successful to start out in the majors.
He hit in AA. He hit in AAA. In his first 376 MLBPA, he hit to the tune of a 117 wRC+.
Only then did he *COLLAPSE* as an MLB hitter. At which point, he went back to AAA and hit there again. Back the Majors and lost it. Slowly started looking like it just might come back to him (got back to a 98 wRC+ in 2014 — 3 years after his 117 wRC+ in 2011)… when he collapsed again in 2015, was traded to the Yankees, obliterated AAA again (312! wRC+ in 19 PA), teased Yankee fans that he might have fixed himself in 57 PA and then… was done
The facts around Ackley are that he was successful and then collapsed to tease his potential every now and then. He was a stellar defender up the middle with an above-average-for-corner bat *IN HIS ROOKIE SEASON*. Then he collapsed.
The common narrative that he was never any good at all is complete BS. The basic facts of his career stat line show it to be so. When people could be investigating why he collapsed after such resounding success, they instead either have to choose to deny that reality, be complicit with those who deny it or defend it.
He didn’t hit that well in AAA or AA.
A .283 career hitter in the minors looks exactly like a player who would hit .241 in the majors. His main strength was working walks, and he walked less in the majors because the pitchers are better.
I choose to deny your reality. I dont say that he was never any good. He had his moments, but he never tore up the minors, or majors. He was just not as talented as advertised.
I don’t think they “developed” any of those guys. They’re all guys who went through the minor leagues with other teams and were in the majors when they Mariners got them. Nice job scouting out players other teams were undervaluing, but the Mariners didn’t develop any of them.
Ackley was much better than this
Pros: He is only 22.
Cons: Everything in this article.
…
Even if he starts hitting, which at this point isn’t guaranteed, he’s looking more and more like a DH. To be this bad in the corner OF at age 21 is not a good sign for his future overall value, obviously. DH’s who don’t have an OPS+ of 120 or more are simply not valued very highly.
He’s going to really regret not signing that extension Seattle offered him, I’m afraid.
Kelenic has been playing CF. Given how unreliable defensive metrics are, I’d be surprised if he’s not at least a competent corner OF long term
I think Kelenic was rushed. Even after being sent down after his initial MLB stint, he still has very little experience in the upper minors. He still has only played 21 games at AA (in 2019) and 30 at AAA.
Agreed.
AAA numbers and advanced stats say the kid shouldnt be parked in AAA.
Yes, he looked good in his 143 plate appearances in AAA. That’s a far cry from advanced stats saying he should be in the majors.
This is a hindsight-only conclusion, though. The numbers he has put up in high-A, AA and AAA *ALL* indicate he was ready for each jump.
Not succeeding is not in of itself evidence that he wasn’t going to succeed.
You can potentially argue that he might need to go down again so that he can work things out. You can potentially argue that there are factors that couldn’t be observed (psychological or exploitable holes). To say he was “rushed” to me indicates that you simply don’t know what the term means in regards to prospects.
“Rushed” players are rushed when they are promoted even when they haven’t been successful yet. Mike Zunino was rushed. Everyone knew Zunino was being rushed at the time because he’d only received 57 PA in AA before jumping to AAA and was *NOT* successful in his >200 AAA PAs. Mariners fans all over the internet were either crying foul at GM Zduriencik that Zunino was being rushed or attempting to make some sense at the move because… he was clearly being rushed (aside, the most common idea I recall at the time was that his initial promotion “had to be” intended as very short because of the injury situation the M’s faced among their Catchers. This… ended up being untrue. Zunino was just simply being rushed).
If *THAT* had been the situation with Kelenic, then yes, there is a very, very good argument that he was rushed. It would be such a good argument that it would almost certainly be the major argument and we’d all be crying foul at that he’s clearly being rushed. It wasn’t, though. Kelenic has been incredible in AAA — from Day 1 (2 HR on opening night in Tacoma). Yes, it has been over two short stints so far, but he’s been incredible by every noteworthy metric and didn’t show any of the holes that rushed players show.
That sounds logical, but its not the only criterion for being rushed. Hos numbers in A+ arent great (49 hits and 49Ks is a concern), and the amount of reps matter. He had 30 real good gajes in AAA, but I have seen a lot of great statistics in the PCL over the years, and nothing he did was “incredible, in my view.
I mean, if Kelenik was incredible, what would you call Jose Marmelejos (1.152 OPS)? Super duper incredible?
We wouldn’t care so much if he was successfully running. The thing is that he isn’t good at stealing bases. Looks like he may be in the bargain bin next draft.
“He will be in left field in April.”
Mariners had a date picked out already, interesting. I guess I am the onlyone on this thread questioning WHY they chose THAT DATE?
Evidently development IS linear and the Mariners knew that the best way for Kelenic to be succesful was a few more weeks of cage time at the alternate site. Evidently.
Caveat that people are now coincidentally forgetting:
Kelenic got banged up a bit at the end of Spring and just before these comments by Mather. While there is indeed a whole bunch of “hindsight is 20/20” going on for everyone, this element shouldn’t be completely thrown out.
That said, I am also in the camp that they were indeed doing the typical service-time manipulation shenanigans. I am, however, starting to go more on the side that it’s more typical and less in-our-faces.
Because focusing on a single statement with no other evidence, including performance data, is silly? Maybe stop posting the same point over and over and over again? Or keep doing it, but maybe move onto another fact, as this doesn’t appear to be the compelling catch all you think it is.
Dude was hurt (or have you overlooked that?) and clearly wasn’t ready. Mariners didn’t MANIPULATE time so much as play within the constraints of service time rules. Any additional time in the minors would’ve benefitted his development, as plainly demonstrated by how he’s performed at the big league level. I side with labor most all of the time, but the kid wasn’t ready. It’s an organizational waste for them to start that service time with abysmal production, and no one – not the fans, not Kelenic – would have benefitted from him having been promoted sooner.
He might single-handedly keep them out of the playoffs
Given the lack of other options to play CF at the moment… … hmm… No.
That’s just how bad the situation is without Kyle Lewis (man, I hope his knees are fine after this). Not only would other options (as CF) wouldn’t be 5 wins better (the gap the M’s have to close for the WC2 slot), there’s a small argument that they might be as bad or worse (Fraley in CF vLHP, Trammel in CF, or Kelenic in CF?).
haha. If only they had called him up sooner! He would have been an all star if he had opened the year with thye Mariners!
Kelenic is getting all the ink but Taylor Trammell is following almost the exact same script. The shine was off him before this season and he looked like he couldn’t play throughout April but when he got sent to Tacoma he went wild. Got called up again and swooned again. He began his latest trip to the minors with a 1 for 28 and it hasn’t gone very well since.
But… but… Kelenic was a “top prospect”! How is it possible he can’t hit major league pitching?
Can we still keep the narrative that the Mets were so terribly incompetent when they traded him?
I read somewhere (maybe here at fangraphs) recently that MLB scouts were complaining that the minor league quality of play this year is really lousy compared to previous years. Kelenic is far from the only highly touted rookie to be called up this year and really struggle. I wonder if the lack of minor league ball halted development in the minor leagues overall, including among top prospects, while the major league quality of play was essentially unchanged because they played last year. The result being that the top prospects like Kelenic who didn’t develop last year still destroyed minor league pitching, creating the illusion that they were ready when they in fact weren’t. After destroying substandard AAA pitching, these players came up to the majors and have simply been overwhelmed. In the long term this should even out, but in the short term it means that prospects lack the value we would normally expect of them. The Kelenics of the world therefore will either figure out how to adjust in MLB and figure it out with a longer development time in the majors, or they’re going to have an unusually high flop rate until 2020 basically gets aged out of the minor league development timeline.