Jesus Montero Provides a Reminder
While the Mariners won’t officially confirm the news until later today, Jesus Montero is currently on waivers, free to any team who wants to pay the $20,000 waiver fee and is willing to put Montero on their roster. This is quite the downfall for a guy who, not that long ago, was drawing comparisons to some of the best hitters in baseball.
“In terms of hitting ability, Montero can be a Manny Ramirez or a Miguel Cabrera,” [New York Yankees general manager Brian] Cashman told ESPN New York’s Ian O’Connor. “As a catcher, he’s got a cannon for an arm. As far as everything and what I want him to be, I want him to be Jorge Posada.”
Cashman added, “He has a chance to bat third or fourth. He has the potential to be a beast in the middle of our lineup.”
And before you start thinking that Cashman was simply participating in the Yankee-prospect hype machine, this is what he said about him after he traded him to Seattle for Michael Pineda.
In a tweet Friday night, Bergen Record columnist Bob Klapisch quoted Yankees general manager Brian Cashman saying, “To me, Montero is Mike Piazza. He’s Miguel Cabrera.”
To this point in his career, Montero has 865 plate appearances and a 92 wRC+, which puts him in the Orlando-to-Asdrubal tier of Cabreras, rather than the Miguel tier for which Cashman hoped. A guy who hits like a shortstop but can’t run or play the field isn’t much of a big leaguer, which is why the Mariners are willing to give Montero away to anyone who wants him. And why Montero serves as a reminder about how little certainty we should have when it comes to forecasting the future performance of hitters.
Many words have been written about the variability of pitching prospects. For a while, statheads even took pride in an acronym suggesting that pitching prospects were a myth, a collection of hopes and dreams that most often resulted in injury and disappointment. But while prospects who hit come with fewer health issues, it’s also quite difficult to identify great hitters before they establish themselves as such in the big leagues. That Montero was identified as one such potentially great hitter and didn’t pan out isn’t a rebuke of the entire attempt to scout hitting talent, but a look at the list of the best hitters in baseball should serve as a reminder about just how challenging it is to see offensive greatness in a young player.
Heading into 2016, Bryce Harper is probably the best hitter alive, and certainly, scouts have seen him coming for a long time; he was on the cover of Sports Illustrated as a 15-year-old. But after that, it gets a bit murky.
Mike Trout was certainly highly regarded, and was taken in the first round of the 2009 draft, but he famously went 25th overall; there are lots of stories about teams who had him very high on their draft boards, but it’s fair to say that no one saw this coming. Trout has become the Mickey Mantle of his generation, vastly exceeding what anyone thought he would be. And yet, even the fact that he was a first-round pick makes him somewhat rare among the game’s best hitters.
Giancarlo Stanton, the game’s most prodigious power hitter? A second-round pick in 2007. Joey Votto, who has the 15th-best wRC+ in baseball history? Second-round pick. Paul Goldschmidt? Eighth round, and never appeared on Baseball America’s list of the top 100 prospects as he climbed the minor league ladder.
These are the best hitters of their time, but they weren’t seen as elite talents coming into professional baseball. And plenty of the other best hitters in the game weren’t even considered to be high-end players by the time they reached the big leagues. Jose Bautista, Edwin Encarnacion, Anthony Rizzo, Chris Davis, and Josh Donaldson all passed through multiple organizations, traded because their original clubs weren’t sure what they had on their hands. David Ortiz, of course, was famously cut by the Twins before going to Boston and becoming a franchise icon, and before that, the Mariners traded him to Minnesota for Dave Hollins.
And of course, there are guys like J.D. Martinez, guys who came out of nowhere to turn into offensive monsters. David Peralta also fits that mold, as a converted pitcher who had to lobby for a job while playing in independent ball, and now looks like one of the best right fielders in the game. Matt Carpenter was basically an organization guy when the Cardinals drafted him, then they turned him into an interesting role player to get him to the big leagues, and now he’s a legitimate All-Star with serious power.
Yes, there are guys who were projected as great hitters who have lived up to the billing. Scouts saw Miguel Cabrera as a teenager and identified him as a monster at the plate, and he’s lived up to it. Buster Posey and Manny Machado were high draft picks who have become superstars, and Carlos Correa and Kris Bryant look like they’ll follow in their footsteps. This isn’t all dart-throwing.
But projecting offensive performance from teenagers is just really difficult. Power can be seen, and the lack of power can usually be ascertained with a higher degree of certainty, even with guys like Carpenter or Mookie Betts hanging around as reminders that nothing is written in stone. But the stuff that makes great hitters that isn’t hitting the ball really far; that stuff is really, really difficult to see in advance.
And that stuff was essentially the basis for the rosy projections for Jesus Montero, because he didn’t do anything else at a big league level. He couldn’t run or field, but he was identified as a potential superstar because a lot of very good evaluators were convinced that he had special offensive skills. And you know what? We don’t even know that they were wrong. Maybe Montero really does have those skills, but simply didn’t put in the requisite work in order to develop them properly. Maybe the systemic failures of hitting prospects coming through Seattle damaged Montero’s development, and resulted in something less than what he would have been elsewhere. Maybe he’s still going to become what he was projected to be, and we’re just seeing the beginnings of the next Edwin Encarnacion.
But as Montero sits on waivers, available to anyone for basically nothing, it’s useful to remember just how difficult it is to identify great hitters at a young age. While many talk about the uncertainty surrounding defensive metrics, we should be far more skeptical of overly-certain claims about a young player’s future offense than we should be about whether a big leaguer saved 10 or 20 runs with his glove in a given year. When it comes to young hitters, we still don’t know a lot. No one does, because so much of what makes a great hitter isn’t easily observed in short bursts.
For bat-only prospects like Montero — guys who have to hit in order to have value at the big league level — we should remember that the spread of outcomes is always going to be remarkably high. Accurately projecting the future path of a young hitter is remarkably difficult, and we just don’t know as much about hitting as we do about the other things that a player can do to impact a team on the field. That doesn’t mean Montero wasn’t a real prospect, or that guys like A.J. Reed aren’t also highly valuable assets within an organization, but Montero is a reminder of how far we all still have to go before we can be confident in saying that any prospect has can’t-miss offensive ability. Often, they do indeed miss.
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
$20,000 can buy a lot of ice cream sandwiches.
I still can not believe that Cashman would put that much pressure on a kid and expect him to become me.
It’s unfair to expect any player to fill Posada’s shoes. His reign atop the FanGraphs search bar is a generational occurrence.
Also, remember that Posada started out as a second baseman. There were no Posada expectations from the original Posada. He didn’t start hitting for the Posada-level power until the majors either.
woosh…
Remember when Pineda got hurt and people thought Seattle won that trade?
I know a Yankees fan that as of last year was still upset about the trade.
Glad you mentioned Goldschmidt, because he’s the bizarro-world Montero.
Goldschmidt wasn’t in great shape and wasn’t much of a defensive player out of college, which is why he wasn’t a huge prospect.
But he worked his ass off to get himself in shape and to become a great defensive player.
Montero has never even attempted to do either of those things. I saw him in person a couple of weeks ago, and he looks like a manatee stuffed into a baseball uniform.
Yeah, there are fat guys who are major league regulars, but if you’re fat and you’re not succeeding… don’t you at least try to lose weight? If you care about being a Major Leaguer, don’t you try?
FWIW, Montero actually has lost a lot of weight since his nadir. If you take a look at him in photos now he’s clearly in better shape.
Round is a shape.
Sandoval is awful and puts no effort into getting into better shape. Hell, he even made it a point this Spring to make sure everyone knew he didn’t even weigh himself all Winter.
How much of Montero’s bust is due to work ethic or interest in baseball? I know both were openly questioned in the Mariner’s organization, famously by the helmet sundae incident
In response to this and dirtbag just above, Ruben Amaro is vigorously shaking his head up-and-down. Maybe this was Ruben’s blind spot, not recognizing that hard work takes you up to your talent ceiling, but no further? So in further prognosticating veterans, it really is no longer that significant? Then Ruben wound up betting on hard-working veterans just as steroids were being heavily washed out of the game?
Giving 100% will take you right to your talent ceiling, you’re right. That’s why we always looked for guys that gave 110%.
I’m really glad to see this post. I’ve been thinking for a few months now that the “hitters are safer than pitchers” mantra was entirely because pitchers break. They are just so much more easily projectable, and the bust rate for healthy pitchers is tiny compared to hitters.
I asked about it a couple times in chats, but mostly the view I heard was that pitcher risk still amounted to more lost value than hitter volatility. Glad to see we’re starting to think about it the other way.
The real question then, for me, is whether or not we adjust our views on rebuilds. The Cubs obviously have an incredible team, but it’s not because all their young hitters developed like we thought they would. We could call Castro, Baez, Soler, and Alcantara all underwhelming, and maybe even call all four busts at the end of 2016. Meanwhile, the Cubs are dominant because of great moves in free agency, a couple rising prospects, and a rotation and bullpen that are excellent. The prospects have been important, but not like we thought they would.
Compare this with the Mets. Thor and Harvey have exceeded lofty expectations and deGrom has been well above any expectations. Wheeler has been only league average, which is somewhat underwhelming, but he’s far from a bust. Given that a second TJS is still mostly uncommon and TJS heals well, and three of the four have already had TJS, I think there’s good reason to believe the pitchers will be healthy.
Is it still industry consensus that it’s better to build around hitters, knowing that half or more will bust/meh, or is building up a huge stable of pitchers and hoping for a surprise or two starting to be viewed with more merit?
It’s not that uncommon, and by far the best predictor of future injury risk is past injury history. The thing about pitching is that it’s more easily replaceable in the sense that you don’t have discrete differences between being at the top of a rotation and being at the bottom. If a shortstop gets hurt, you can’t replace him with your backup first baseman. So an organization that builds for depth at pitching like the Mets have will be better able to weather the inevitable injury attrition. But pitchers are still inherently much more of a health risk than batters.
Yes it’s still industry consensus, because a pitcher breaking means you get absolutely nothing out of him. You call Castro underwhelming, but the Cubs still got a lot of value out of him. And some out of both (very lowly paid) Baez last year and Soler the last two.
I think it’s a reasonable consideration but the Cubs as a counterexample doesn’t hold weight. Castro’s been a solid Major League contributor for several seasons and may still breakout further. He turned 26 last week; deGrom turned 26 a month after making his Major League debut. Soler just turned 24 in February, is already a better than average hitter over his “Major League career” so far, and has faced less than a full season’s worth of plate appearances. Baez is still 3 months younger than Syndergaard. There is a ton of time left before those three can be written off as busts, and Alcantará was never considered as good a prospect as those guys.
Remember the extensive debate about whether the Mariners f-ed up taking Smoak over Montero for Cliff Lee?
And now the Blue Jays have both.
Oh, and where’s Zymborski?? I don’t even much care about his chat, but when something that’s regularly there this time isn’t with no explanation at all, that’s not sound management practice. Or is this announced, and I’m the only one who misses said announcement?
I would love a seared/grilled salmon steak.
Coming up!
Or, it is Szimborska. Not a lot of concerns about his speech, but when something very common this time even without any explanation, is not good management practice. Or is familiar, and I was the only one who lacks speech.
Easy there big fella.
I’m impressed that Jeff was able to write a post on Jesus Montero, who while maybe not a career bust is certainly a Mariner’s bust and even write a few sentences about Cashman, and still not mention Pineda: http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=5372&position=P
I’m even more impressed he was able to do it using Dave’s name.
Jeff’s just cowardly that way is all.
I hope a team like the Phillies or Brewers claim him and give him some playing time to see what they have, I doubt Chris Carter or Ryan Howard are going to stand in the way. He has a ton of work ethic concerns but Seattle doesn’t exactly have the best reputation for developing hitters.
As dirtbag pointed out up above, when you look like “a manatee stuffed into a baseball uniform”, it’s visually obvious what you have. Boy oh boy I hope my Brewers don’t sign him.
No one should even touch him other than some independent minor league team. Can’t send a message to his would-be minor league teammates that it’s OK to be at least a little bit lazy so long as you got talent.
I don’t know that this is the kind of guy I would want my team taking a chance on, no matter how low-risk. Rather bet on guys that haven’t put it together yet but have some minor league success and a good work ethic. Montero doesn’t seem like he really cares to become a good hitter.
What is his deal though? The guy destroyed AAA pitching again in 2015. Confidence?
It doesn’t make sense to me that hes able to consistently crush minor league pitching. The regular at bats and not being looked at as the best hitter on the team?
Plenty of guys crush AAA pitching and don’t pan out. I guess that’s why we have the AAAA moniker. Maybe this is just another example that it’s not a linear difficulty path if you go from AAA to MLB. Pitching in MLB is really damn good.
It was genuine PCL-bashing. Heavily inflated BA/SLG in that environment. Still can’t hit a breaking ball, still struggles to take a walk.
Anyone with a half decent bender or slider just eats him alive.
… and he ends up in Toronto, because of course he does
They could use more defensively challenged players with right handed power, makes sense
Well they certainly might next year when they lose the defensively challenged players with right handed power to free agency
Easter seems like the best time to try a resurrection of Jesus, doesn’t it? I’ll see myself out.
The timing of Jesus’ disappearance and re-emergence is quite odd.
You just compare Montero to me?
Am I eating crazy beans in crazy town while wearing crazy pants, or could Montero be a more-than-normally interesting Encarnation-type as mentioned?
His BABIPs of .231, .231, and .267 don’t really make a ton of sense given his batted ball profiles, which are high on line drives (career 23.5%) with almost no pop ups (4.6% career, none since 2013, and a hard-hit rate of 41.3% last year in over 116 PAs.
Montero hasn’t consistently struggled against any pitch type, moderating his early struggles against breaking balls, while more recently struggling with changeups and in particular 2-seamers: hitting a ton of grounders. While his pitch type data isn’t strong, there doesn’t seem to be strong evidence that he is a classic AAAA player that can’t handle big league breaking balls (or any other particular MLB pitches).
There are some other red flags obviously- his O-swing rate is up without benefit, as is his swing rate generally including swinging strikes. Pitchers are throwing him a ton of first pitch strikes without any getting hit.
2012 & 2013 standout for a pretty extreme power drought (HR/FB rate around 10%, ISO around .120) otherwise absent from his career, and 2015 stands out as featuring his most extreme plate discipline problems- perhaps related to his O-swing rate. None of that is promising, but his career has featured a number of specific struggles that aren’t outstanding bets to continue.
A .250/.290/.440 hardly seems all that unlikely, with something like 5% BB, 20% K, .280 BABIP, .180 ISO, 35% FB, 15% HR/FB. That sort of performance would be similar to the ZIPs projection, and a little short of the fan projection, and that’s not a terrible baseline for a 26 year old who would seem to have at least a couple, albeit unlikely, of paths towards quality play: (1) improve to merely below average defensively; or (2) stop hitting so many grounder on 2-seamers.