Kris Bryant’s One Offensive Question Mark

Pretty often, we get accused of overvaluing young players and prospects. The line of thinking is that we don’t properly appreciate the chances of a player flaming out and failing to accomplish anything of consequence. Yet, I don’t think we’ve ever been accused of overvaluing Kris Bryant. Around Bryant, there’s developed a consensus. Kiley ranked him first among Cubs prospects, obviously. Keith Law ranked him first in baseball. ZiPS is in love with Bryant, projecting a .364 wOBA. And Steamer, too, projects a .364 wOBA, exceeding its projections for Adrian Beltre and Robinson Cano. The No. 1 ZiPS comp is Evan Longoria. Bryant has yet to play in the major leagues, but already he’s considered a huge reason why the 2015 Cubs ought to contend for a playoff spot. He probably won’t be on the team out of camp, but he should be locked in before Memorial Day.

What I don’t intend to do is try to convince you that Bryant is going to bust. I don’t think Bryant is going to bust. He is uncommonly good, and uncommonly powerful, with power to all fields that comes out of a shorter swing than you’d expect. Yet there is one thing about Bryant worth considering as hype continues to build. He’s not a perfect prospect; there’s no such thing as a perfect prospect. Every prospect has a flaw, and Bryant’s is enough to raise the eyebrows. Think of it this way: if Bryant were to disappoint, why might that be? It seems we could already have a sign.

In a way we’ve already been through this with George Springer. Not that the Springer story is complete, and not that Springer is an identical sort of hitter to Bryant, but the issue’s the same. When people talk about Bryant, they generally do acknowledge the strikeouts. The strikeouts, quite clearly, haven’t prevented Bryant from putting up minor-league numbers that break leaderboard pages. What’s so interesting is what’s right underneath the strikeouts. You probably don’t know just how often Kris Bryant has swung at a pitch and missed.

Or, contact rate, if you flip it around. Contact rate tends to hover in the high-70s. That’s how it is in the majors. That’s how it is in Triple-A. That’s how it is in Double-A. You expect power hitters, generally, to swing and miss a little more often than usual, but Bryant last year took things toward an extreme.

In Double-A, Bryant batted just shy of 300 times. He posted a contact rate a hair under 69%, according to Minor League Central. Among players for whom we have data, this was the sixth-lowest contact rate at the level. Bryant, of course, obliterated the baseball when he hit it, and he managed to draw his walks, but his contact rate was lower than, say, Rymer Liriano’s. Joey Gallo showed up at 58%, and that blows Bryant out of the water, but if we get that Gallo is a boom-or-bust unknown, Bryant isn’t that different. Gallo would be sort of a caricature of the profile.

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Anyway, forget Double-A. In Triple-A, Bryant also batted just shy of 300 times. He posted a contact rate a hair under 65%, according to the same site. Among players for whom we have data, this was the fourth-lowest contact rate at the level. Somewhat incredibly, fewer than two percentage points separated Bryant and Javier Baez. Fewer than two percentage points separated Bryant and Brett Jackson. Bryant made contact less often than Domingo Santana; Bryant made contact less often than Carlos Peguero. Bryant, understand, has a more refined approach. He’s not a hacker, like Peguero is. But the misses are there when he swings. And not just a little more than average — a lot more than average. In between doubles and dingers, Bryant has been a swing-and-miss machine.

It hasn’t cost him. Bryant owns a four-digit minor-league OPS. Yet the goal isn’t to get Bryant to destroy the ball in the minors — you wonder about how the contact will translate to the very highest level of competition. This is where George Springer is relevant. Springer, in Triple-A, also made about 65% contact. In the majors as a rookie, 61%. Springer also posted a 127 wRC+ because he was able to maximize the contact he did make, but usually you don’t bet on a guy hitting more than twice as many homers as doubles and triples. And, Springer hasn’t yet even played a full season. We don’t actually know what he is.

Bryant’s Triple-A contact rate ranks 25th-lowest since 2008. I already noted Springer and Baez. Brandon Hicks has also been in the same territory. Somewhat distressingly, you also see Mike Olt’s name, not that Olt has ever drawn as much praise as Bryant has. In case I need to keep issuing reminders, Bryant is a better prospect than Olt ever was, but Olt was thought of as a good prospect once upon a time, and contact problems have contributed to his being a disappointment.

If you look in the majors, since 2002, 23 players have batted at least 1,000 times while posting contact rates no higher than 70%. Of those, only four players come in below 65% — Russell Branyan, Wily Mo Pena, Kelly Shoppach, and Mark Reynolds. Only two other players in the group have made contact with fewer than two-thirds of their swings. This whole pool has averaged a 108 wRC+. The superstars are Jim Thome and Giancarlo Stanton. The lesser stars include Richie Sexson, Jack Cust, Ryan Howard, and later-career Sammy Sosa. Thome could be the ultimate Bryant upside, handedness be damned, but Thome maxed out the rest of his offensive profile. If Bryant is going to keep swinging and missing, then if he wants to be highly productive, he needs to get as much as possible out of his eye and his power.

It helps tremendously that Bryant is powerful to all fields. It helps that, even though he hits a ton of fly balls, he only very seldom pops the ball up. Bryant makes a poor amount of contact, but with great and borderline unparalleled quality of contact, and this is the same conversation we’ve had about Springer. Yet given Bryant’s age, it’s possible he won’t keep whiffing. Though it’s unusual to go from being a swing-and-miss hitter to being a contact hitter, Bryant doesn’t necessarily have to whiff as much as Chris Davis. This is the fun comp: as a rookie in his early 20s, Mike Schmidt struck out 31% of the time. The rest of his career, he struck out just 18% of the time. Aramis Ramirez figured contact out, although he was terribly rushed. Rookie Fred McGriff struck out 29% of the time; non-rookie Fred McGriff struck out 18% of the time.

Great players, players with Hall-of-Fame arguments, have begun their careers with contact problems. A contact problem at 22 doesn’t have to be a contact problem at 28. Bryant is a fantastic prospect, and he should become a really helpful everyday player. You just never want to take anything for granted, and Bryant will be entering the majors from a position where he hasn’t made a ton of contact in the minor leagues. That’s an issue until it isn’t one. It isn’t a make-or-break issue. It isn’t an argument to bump Bryant down any prospect lists. This just happens to be the flaw. In Triple-A, Kris Bryant whiffed almost as often as Javier Baez did. That’s not the player the Cubs want Bryant to be.





Jeff made Lookout Landing a thing, but he does not still write there about the Mariners. He does write here, sometimes about the Mariners, but usually not.

126 Comments
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Fast Eddie
11 years ago

I would rather have great contact with misses than weak contact with none.

witesoxfan
11 years ago
Reply to  Fast Eddie

You mean you aren’t a fan of Jeff Keppinger?

As a fan, you just hope he improves his contact skills, but it’s not impossible to be a difference maker that strikes out 27-30% of the time.

Rational Fan
11 years ago
Reply to  witesoxfan

But it’s impossible to be an elite MLB baseball player if you strike out 30% of the time. You can still be productive, don’t get me wrong, but you can’t have a 30% k-rate and be one of the games elite players… and if you are, your reign near the top won’t last very long.

Giancarlo Stanton
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

Calm down.

Rational Fan
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

Stanton had a K-Rate of 30% as a rookie, and he was far from an elite player then. He has steadily dropped his rate each of the past three seasons, and amazingly enough he has become more and more dominant as he has done so. Stanton was also much less polished when he came up – Bryant is a somewhat finished product, while Stanton had a ton of room to grow given his age, and actual baseball reps.

2013 Chris Davis
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

You tellin me I’m not elite?

Rational Fan
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

“and if you are, your reign near the top won’t last very long.”

BipMember since 2016
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

I mean what are you really telling us?

“It’s hard to be an elite player with a 30% rate”

Holy sh- what? No way.

Giancarlo Stanton is a fun example because while you’re hand-waving him away, he actually provides a good example of exactly why you’re wrong. Part of Bryant’s projection involves the very significant chance that he – like more good big leaguers – improves his plate discipline as he gains more experience. While other skills decline with age, this is the one skill that actually tends to improve with age. And it’s the one skill Bryant doesn’t really have.

He has hit like Barry Bonds in the minors. You can understand why he maybe hasn’t put a lot of focus into his approach. If he gets exposed in the bigs, wouldn’t that lead to a refocusing of his efforts? For all we know, a simple change in a approach is all he needs – something he’s never had to do up until this point.

BipMember since 2016
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

Sigh. 30% K rate.

Brandon
11 years ago
Reply to  Fast Eddie

Andrelton Simmons

Rational Fan
11 years ago

The contact rate is a big red flag, and the main reason that I think people ranking him ahead of Lord Byron and Urias are mistaken – I would take those two over Bryant everyday of the week.

I actually think Bryant has a higher probability of busting than other top 10 prospects because of his contact rate. Javy Baez had similar contact struggles and he his learning curve at the big leagues is proving to be quite big.

If people think the Cubs will contend, partly because of a minor league bat with no proven track record then all I can say is wtf.

Steven
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

In what publications are you seeing Urias ranked ahead of Correa?

Cool Lester Smooth
11 years ago
Reply to  Steven

Uh, he’s a 17 year old pitcher who has never seen a lineup more than twice!

Why wouldn’t you take him over an SS with power, speed, contact and patience who should be able to stick at the position?!

Rational Fan
11 years ago

He’s a 17 year old who has dominated players that are 2-3 years older than him on average – his first year, he dominated players 3-4 years older than him. Not only that, but last year he played in one of the most hitter friendly leagues in all of the MiLB. His numbers last year are similar to a pitcher dominating the PCL – although, obviously, the PCL is a higher level. The Cal league is one of the most hitter friendly environments in all of professional baseball.

Cool Lester Smooth
11 years ago

You forgot “and has never completed 6 innings in a professional baseball game, or cracked 100 IP in a season.”

I love Urias, love him, but there are still too many questions to take him over a guy like Correa, in my opinion.

Although a major part of that is because I think Correa’s the best prospect in baseball.

Matthew
11 years ago

Cool Lester, Urias could very well pitch in the majors in 2015. He is ready.

Cool Lester Smooth
11 years ago

Ready to face a lineup three times through? He hasn’t done that yet, so let’s pump the breaks on his being ready for the MLB.

mutant beast
11 years ago

scariest thought about Urias is his size. 5’11” 175 lbs. Guys that small who throw 95plus dont tend to last long in MLB. Think someone like Ron Guidry or Roy Oswalt, both of whom lasted around 10 years as big leaguers.

a eskpert
11 years ago

I think the Dodgers would be thrilled if they got Roy Oswalt of Urias.

Cool Lester Smooth
11 years ago

Yeah, Guidry and Oswalt are prototypical “Hall of Very Good” pitchers.

That’s like an ideal outcome.

Rational Fan
11 years ago

Urias doesn’t consistently throw 95.

Pedro was tiny, he seemed to do OK

Urias is a lefty. Which is a pretty big difference.

Anyone that thinks all the Dodgers are hoping for is Roy Oswalt, who was very good but not great, is badly mistaken. The Dodgers have made it clear they won’t trade Urias – period.

Steven
11 years ago

Okay, now I see that Rational Fan is a troll. Nobody is stupid enough to believe the Dodgers are expecting Urias to be better than a career 49.8 WAR pitcher.

Hamlet
11 years ago

This poster comes out of the woodwork on every Chicago-related piece to share great wisdom with the world. S/he always tires her/imself out eventually.

Rational Fan
11 years ago

Hamlet, I’ll post one of the league ID’s from RealTime fantasy – one of the $1999.95 leagues. I played in 5 last year, and luckily won 3 with my ignorance and lack of knowledge. The year before I somehow overcame my ignorance and stupidity and was in contention for the grand prize at the NFBC.

If you’re interested, I will be finalizing registrations near the end of this month and you’re more than welcome to join me and embarrass me with your superior knowledge of the game.

The Dodgers would take Oswalt – I never said otherwise, but I think their expectations for Urias are HOF level. Even at his young age. He could flame out tomorrow, sure, but I wouldn’t bet on it.

Rational Fan
11 years ago

Also hilarious that both guys have never gotten out of A+, but yet one is much more advanced and easily the better choice.

Correa is apparently a finished product – at A ball. Urias has a long way to go… at the same level. You can’t make this shit up.

BipMember since 2016
11 years ago

I’m a Dodger fan, and I’m lolling at the idea that Roy Oswalt is even Urias’s 90th percentile projection. The Dodgers are holding onto him because they can afford to, not because he’s the lefty version of Pedro.

Rational Fan
11 years ago
Reply to  Steven

None, I just personally think Urias belongs in the top 2 prospects in baseball. Have you ever seen a 16 year old dominate A-Ball, and then dominate A+ as a 17 year old?

If I were a GM, I wouldn’t trade Urias for Correa, and I usually always chose the position player over the pitcher. Urias is a special, special talent though.

MARK LIU
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

Lol. Your crazy. Of course you trade Urias for Correa. Urias may not even project as an ace.

Rational Fan
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

Says who? So Correa can be projected to be an elite MLB SS after just 62 games at A+, but Urias can be projected to be an elite starter with similar service time? That makes no sense.

Urias, if anything, is further along given his age.

jdbolickMember since 2024
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

Urias is maxed out physically and his advanced approach means that he might be as good now as he’s ever going to be.

Rational Fan
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

Yes, because 17 year olds are frequently maxed out.

So every scout that has him as a top 10 prospect in baseball already at 17 years old (there are many), thinks he’s hit his ceiling and will get no better. Because that frequently happens to 17 year old baseball players… yeesh.

I have no clue how someone can type “maxed out physically” when talking about a 17 year old kid.

TR
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

Urias is maxed out physically? What are you even talking about

Woop it up!
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

Go look at Baez’s minor league BABIPs. They are barely above avg. In fact, I don’t even know what the minor league avg BABIP is, so he could in fact be below avg. The dude makes avg to poor contact when he isn’t hitting homeruns. Now look at Bryant’s minor league BABIPs (with his 7 plate appearances at Cubs (R) ignored): .449, .404, .400, .440, .367. That is insane. He hits the ball hard to all fields and with scary trajectories.

The learning curve for Bryant won’t be nearly as steep as Baez’s. His learning curve is probably already flat even. Oh, and also, Baez doesn’t know how to take a walk. Bryant meanwhile is elite at taking walks (what a strange way to describe that skill).

I am of the opinion that Bryant can post a 350 BABIP. If he does that he’ll hit at least .250 even with a 33% k rate. Add the walks and the power and you’ve got an elite bat.

Kyle
11 years ago
Reply to  Woop it up!

Bryant doesn’t have a ton of minor-league sample. Those huge BABIPs are a lot more likely to mean “massive luckbox” than “always makes amazing contact.” Or at least a mix of the two.

Woop it up!
11 years ago
Reply to  Kyle

Yea no turd it is a mix of the two. Everyone, everywhere has a mix of the two. If some guy has a mix of the two but still gets BABIPs of .449, .404, .400, .440, and .367, even in the minors, can you really just cavalierly say he just had more luck mixed in than the avg guy and that he’ll come down to league avg? You should look at more minor league player pages. Yea sure you’ll see high BABIP pretty regularly, but not that consistently high. Not 400+ or above year after year. Now, I don’t think Bryant will put up .400 BABIPa in the majors. No way, I think he’ll come down. But all you guys bringing him down to .300 are just doctrinaire robots. I think, more likely than not, that Bryant will have an elite BABIP. Maybe not right this year, but certainly eventually.

Also, on this topic, I think I read something somewhere, maybe by Carson, that minor league BABIP success correlates pretty heavily with major league offensive success. Anyone remember that?

pithy gm
11 years ago
Reply to  Kyle

who says you need to regress his babip skill to 0.300. regress it to .340 (higher than the lifetime BABIPs of the named comparables of Thome, Stanton, Sexson, Howard, and Cust) and you’re talking about a 60ish point drop.

That doesn’t occur in a vacuum, right?

mutant beast
11 years ago
Reply to  Kyle

for one year, maybe. Bryants had a far above average Babip throughout his minor league career. He wouldnt be getting all these props if he werent consistently hitting the ball hard when he puts it i play. Does anyone talk about Joey Gallo in the same light as Bryant, outside of his power?

Corey
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

I’m not sure what the contact rate shows, but the K rate is at least as worrisome for Buxton as it is for Bryant, A+ K% was barely behind Bryant’s AA K%. I don’t think any of the mainline prospect rankings do this, but I would discount for level, given the similarity of Bryant and Buxton’s baseline plate discipline numbers, no doubt I’d take Bryant because Bryant is in AAA, Buxton’s still got to prove himself above A+, Bryant also walks twice as often as Buxton for what that’s worth.

PPP
11 years ago
Reply to  Corey

This is Fangraphs: we don’t use small sample sizes of 30 games and disregard larger sample sizes.

Buxton’s career K%: 20.2.
Bryant’s career K%: 26.6.

PPP
11 years ago
Reply to  Corey

Also, you’re disregarding Buxton’s very significant advantage on defense and on the base paths. Offensively, everyone agrees with you that Bryant will be a better hitter and quite possibly a much better hitter.

Sam
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

He’ll fit right in. The Cubs figure to set all sorts of records for strikeouts this year. Its like they only scouted players with huge strikeout numbers.

mutant beast
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

Cubs were actually a .500 team after June 1st, even w/o Bryant and with Baez and Alcantars massive K rates. Without Jon Lester or Fowler either. Bryant will be an improvement over Luis Valbuenna, a little leaguer is an improvement over Darwin Barney, and Jorge Soler on one leg is better than Nate Scheiholz. The Cubs might not be a playoff team, but they likely will improve, just based on whats been seen so far, even without Kris Bryant, Jon Lester or Dexter Fowler, all of whom are better than what they had last year.

DatdudeJD
11 years ago

Can we get Bryant’s in-zone swing percentage and wife rate and his out-of-zone swing percentage and whiff rate? If Bryant is consistently whiffing on pitches in the zone, and he has a good eye and good plate discipline of lay off pitches out of the zone, it would appear that he just swings as hard as he can to do as much damage as possible on pitches in the zone.

The problem with this approach, as noted, is the wide range of players he could become. Stanton would obviously be great outcome, but I would think Cubs fans would be pretty disappointed if they ended up with a player similar to Mark Reynolds.

DatdudeJD
11 years ago
Reply to  DatdudeJD

* whiff rate

I’m sure Bryant’s “wife” rate is respectable.

ScoKo
11 years ago

How does Bryant and Springer’s o-swing % compare? Having trouble finding this data. Fact that Springer only swings at (and misses) good pitches both justifies his massive damage per contact, and bodes well in terms of improvement in contact going forward. Is Bryant similar in this regard? If part of his contact problems are due to chasing then I am a little less bullish on him than Springer.

Cool Lester Smooth
11 years ago
Reply to  ScoKo

As a 22 year old, he had a better BB/K than Springer.

It’s also worth noting that he put up a .472 wOBA (192 wRC+) splitting the year evenly between AA and AAA, while Springer put up a .397 wOBA (135 wRC+) spending 3/4 of his PA in the Hi-A California League.

Springer isn’t particularly close to being in Bryant’s league as an offensive prospect.

Rational Fan
11 years ago

This is deceiving. In his final full season before joining the big leagues he had a wRC+ of 175.

Their numbers at AAA were/are very similar:

Springer: 175 wRC+, .311/.425/.626 (24%k, 15%bb) (Springer stole 22 bases too, and played ++ defense)

Kris Bryant: 164 wRC+, .295/.418/.619 (29%k, 15%bb)

Your hand picking based on age, when the relevant year is the year before the promotion. By all accounts, Bryant doesn’t look “more read” than Springer and their MiLB success isn’t that different at all.

Wilhelm
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

No one in this thread mentioned Bryant being “more read”; nor at any point was defense or baserunning mentioned. You’re comparing a 22-yo in his first full season of pro ball with a 23/24-yo in his second/third.

Rational Fan
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

Why is it his second/third? It was Springer’s second full season, and once again… we are discussing where they were the season before their call up. If anything, and this may just be my opinion, I think it’s better that Springer struggled before getting to the Big Leagues somewhere (his first stint at AA wasn’t great, although a small sample). Bryant has yet to really struggle, and to me that’s a concern because it’s inevitable that he will struggle in the big leagues at some point – regardless of how good he is.

I brought Springer’s fielding and base running to attention because Springer can contribute elsewhere so there isn’t quite as much pressure on him to be an elite hitter right away. Bryant, by all accounts, is an average to below average fielder with limited speed so the pressure will be on him to hit right away.

Buns
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

Bryant won a PCL gold glove. That’s one positive account.

Cool Lester Smooth
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

You don’t understand what the relevant year is when discussing the caliber of a prospect.

Springer’s 2013 is completely irrelevant to any comparison of the two offensively. If you are referencing it to compare the two offensively, you are wrong.

You can’t statistically compare a 22 year old college draftee in his first full season to a 23 year old college draftee in his second season. Period. There’s no room for differing opinions on this. There is only a correct usage of stats, and an incorrect usage of stats.

ScoKo
11 years ago

If Bryant K issues are partly because he swings at pitches outside of the zone I see him as more vulnerable than Springer. Springer does not need to learn the strike zone, he knows it. I see Bryant takes his walks, but I would like to see if he also chases or not.

And what Rational Fan said.

Cool Lester Smooth
11 years ago
Reply to  ScoKo

What Rational Fan said is objectively incorrect when discussing the offensive caliber of a prospect.

So there’s that.

Eliassen Sports Bureau
11 years ago

Totally disagree with that last statement Smoove. I think Springer is a good comp actually. Both GS and KB have /contact issues, both played college, both crushed milb pitching. and both have huge unsustainable BABIPs. They will both struggle to ever sniff .265+ averages. Bryant will be a career .240 hitter.

Woop it up!
11 years ago

You say “huge huge unsustainable BABIPs”, but what exactly do you mean when you say “unsustainable”? Do you mean that those numbers themselves are not repeatable, but that there is still the very real possibility of an exceptionally high BABIP? Or do you mean that BABIP (or in better words “quality of contact”) will cease to be a strength of Bryant and Springer in the major leagues? For example, do you contend that Bryant, who posted BABIPs above .400 on a repeated basis, will drop down to league avg at .300 once he reaches the majors? Or do you think, “hey .400 is impossible, but he’ll still kick ass with a .340-360 BABIP”?

Because that needs to be clarified. If Bryant gets an elite BABIP, and hits lots of homeruns (which dramatically adjust avg and obp after k rate, bb rate, and babip are considered), he’ll quite likely sniff .265 at some point. Probably even eat .265 and shit it out and then have second helpings.

Martha
11 years ago

Can you tell me tomorrow’s winning lotto numbers while you’re at it thanks in advance

Rational Fan
11 years ago

BABIP’s over .300 are certainly attainable – especially by power hitters, and speed players – but Bryant was over .400. His MiLB BABIP is north of .400, and that simply isn’t sustainable. Expecting a BABIP of 360 is insane – Frank Thomas, who is one of the greatest right handed hitters in the history of the game – had a career BABIP of .304. During his peak, he had two years over 340 (341, and 344) but the rest of them he sat around 320-330. If you’re a great power hitter, I think .330 is about your peak.

Woop it up!
11 years ago

Why does .330 have to be the peak for a power hitter? What is a power hitter? Can a power hitter be a rectangle but not a square? Was Frank Thomas one of the best hitters of all time because of BABIP? Do you need BABIP to be one of the best hitters of all time? Why did you bring him up? Giancarlo Stanton, one of the best right handed hitters in today’s game has BABIPs of .353, .313, .344, .314, and .330. Is he a power hitter that strikes out and walks a lot? What about Jose Abreu who just put up a .356 BABIP? What about the high BABIPs of Chris Davis before the shift and bad luck killed him last year? Mike Napoli meanwhile has gone .321, .367, .273, .344 in the last four seasons.

By the way, Giancarlo maxed out at BABIPs of .351 and .350 in the minors. Admittedly, he was younger than Bryant at those levels, but also we’re talking about like 50 points in batting avg balls in play.

Bryant has crazy ability.

Eliassen Sports Bureau
11 years ago

Bryant would need BABIPs of 340 and higher to hit .265 in MLB, as he has 70+ points between his BABIP and avg routinely! just like Springer. Springer’s BABIP was .290 in the bigs last year, he hit .230. Guys like Edwin or Pujols don’t need crazy high BABIPs to be successful, but Springer and Bryant do, more volatile skills/batting profiles. Bryant would need insanely high BABIPs in MLB to ever hit for avg. Think .360+. Two (qualified) guys accomplished that last year, Marte and Altuve. Bryant won’t be a bust, but in the end he will be closer to Pedro Alvarez than Goldschmidt in the stat sheets.

Cool Lester Smooth
11 years ago

He’s not a good comp, because Bryant did far better against more advanced pitching with less experience.

He had a better K/BB between AA and AAA than Springer did in Lancaster for God’s sake, when they had the exact same amount of experience. We’re never going to get a proper reference point for how he would have done in AA and AAA at age 23, because he’s so much better than Springer offensively that the only reason he didn’t get called up last year, in his first full season, is that the Cubs wanted to save money and get a higher draft pick.

Player A is a 23 year old with a 176 wRC+ between AA and AAA, who put up a 135 wRC+ in Hi-A at age 22.

Player B is a 22 year old with a 192 wRC+ between AA and AAA

If you think Player A is a comparable hitter to Player B, scouting reports aside, your opinion is wrong.

Rational Fan
11 years ago

So you think a power hitter who is slow footed can average a babip over 330 for an extended period of time (5+ years?) Ok, good luck with that. I used Frank Thomas because his LD rates were excellent, and had an excellent babip over a 6 year period

BipMember since 2016
11 years ago

So you think a power hitter who is slow footed can average a babip over 330 for an extended period of time (5+ years?)

Miguel Cabrera, BABIP from 2010-2014: .346
Joey Votto: .359
There are more examples.

So yes.

Jd89
11 years ago

Great article. Could someone please tell me where I can dp find swinging strike rate stats or contact percentage for minor league players??

TR
11 years ago

Using stats from Minor League Central, Bryant has elite O-Swing% (would be far and away best among qualified MLB hitters from 2014), and elite called strike rates. He knows the zone, he just has issues inside the zone.

TR
11 years ago
Reply to  Jeff Sullivan

The same data sets you used to write this article?

Jonah Pemstein
11 years ago
Reply to  TR

There’s a difference between contact/no-contact (very clear-cut) and in-zone/out-of-zone (very unreliable in the minors, where there’s no uniform or public pitch tracking).

Irrational Fan Complaining And No One Here Takes Me Seriously So Serrious Frowny Face :*(
11 years ago
Reply to  Jeff Sullivan

Isn’t that what your article is based on?

jdbolickMember since 2024
11 years ago
Reply to  TR

TR, the strike zone criteria used by MLC is somewhat different from that you see here on FanGraphs for major league batters, so their O-Swing% will be lower and Z-Swing% will be higher. Bryant’s 14.4% O-Swing% in AAA was pretty high, ranking 315th worst out of 378 AAA batters with at least 200 plate appearances.

jdbolickMember since 2024
11 years ago

From October 7, 2014 at 2:01 pm

For whatever it’s worth, Kris Bryant had the fifth worst O-Contact% of any AAA batter with at least 200 plate appearances, and he was one of the worst in AA as well. That’s not necessarily a bad thing given that you’d rather miss contact than make poor contact with less than two strikes, but he’ll need to compensate with a low O-Swing% in the major leagues. Of greater concern is that Bryant was almost as bad in Z-Contact%, ranking 22nd worst out of 378 AAA batters.

Since I don’t want to completely rain on the parade I will note that Kris was one of the best (22nd) in AAA at avoiding infield fly-balls, which is hugely beneficial. That gives him an overall statistical profile reminiscent of Ryan Howard, although with slightly weaker contact skills.

BaseballGuy
11 years ago

I realize it doesn’t exist, but I’d love to see Bryant’s wRC+ by pitch type. First thing that goes through my mind for a kid who whiffs a lot but makes only solid contact when he hits the ball is … he’s a fastball hitter or a guess hitter (or both). He basically can’t hit off-speed pitches unless he’s sitting on it. Could be completely untrue, but circumstantially, that’s what I would guess. And if true, that would be bad news for the Cubs. Guess hitters can do fine in MLB, but they’re not generally stars.

Buford
11 years ago

Kris Bryant vs. Javier Baez
2014 Triple A stats per Minor League Central (290 PA minimum):
(minorleaguecentral.com)

Z Swing %:
Bryant-77.1% (18th highest in PCL)
Baez-72.5% (61st highest in PCL)

Z Contact %:
Bryant-74% ( 9th lowest in PCL)
Baez-73.5% ( 7th lowest in PCL)

O Swing %:
Bryant-14.4% (10th highest in PCL)
Baez-19.1% (2nd highest in PCL)

O Contact %:
Bryant-12.8% (3rd lowest in PCL)
Baez-12.9% (4th lowest in PCL)

Irrational Fan Complaining And No One Here Takes Me Seriously So Serrious Frowny Face :*(
11 years ago
Reply to  Buford

How are those numbers right? The best O-swing in the majors last year was 19%

Rational Fan
11 years ago

Man, how will I ever sleep tonight with this devastating name mockery.

Buford
11 years ago

Those are the percentages the website displayed. FWIW, the previous 2 years also showed very low O Swing %’s – very few players over 20%.

jdbolickMember since 2024
11 years ago

Few minor league parks have pitchf/x, so the outside and inside strike zone designations are different from the major league variety.

Doug Gray
11 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

And the ones that do have it aren’t using it for public consumption. The AA/AAA parks all have gameday, but it’s not using the Pitch F/X cameras to track balls/strikes. There is someone guessing where that ball went in the zone and marking it on the computer. It’s very, very unreliable data in terms of location tracking.

Matthew
11 years ago

Bryant is better, but if you want a what could go wrong, don’t look at Springer, look at Jon Singleton. He was flying through the minors with a .400 OBP and 30 HR power because jumping to the majors and striking out 37% of the time with a 65% contact rate.

Cracking Chang
11 years ago

There is only one perfect prospect:

thy name is MOOKIE…all kneel and honer Lord Betts

Eliassen Sports Bureau
11 years ago
Reply to  Cracking Chang

Truth

Mantis Toboggan
11 years ago
Reply to  Cracking Chang

He’s not technically a prospect anymore, but I would have to agree Betts is about as close as you can get. All he seems to be missing is star prospect “pedigree” (he was a 5th round pick)…

JayT
11 years ago

That and star-level power. His minor league iso is around a good but not great .150.

A perfect prospect would be someone like Alex Rodriguez, who showed power, speed, hitting ability, and defence as an 18 and 19 year old in AAA. Mookie, who I think will be a fantastic player, is far from that.

jim fetterolf
11 years ago

The question might be, what is he whiffing on? Power hitters with a quick trigger trying to get out front with maximum bat speed tend to get fooled by off-speed stuff. If he can’t handle off-speed, Wil Myers might be a comp for him. Myers’ challenges in that regard were apparent at lower levels, then he came up and got the usual rookie diet of heat and matched David Lough’s fW in ’13, then got booked in ’14. Should be interesting. With all fields power Bryant should be able to stay back when needed.

Jason
11 years ago

I remember when Mike Trout led the AL in K’s all the way back in 2014 and was considered a total bust that season and for the rest of his career up until this point. With all that talent and production early in his career, the strikeout problem has limited him to only one MVP award thus far. It’s a really sad state of affairs. He’ll likely never get another contract as rich as the one he just signed, either. What a waste. Damn you, strikeouts!

Rational Fan
11 years ago
Reply to  Jason

Yet his k rate was only 26%. That 4% makes a big difference.

Arte Moreno
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

I see. That’s why my boy was better than players with a 22% K rate.

Jason
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

Bryant’s K rate last season was 27.3 percent. His BABIP was .400+. He also stole 15 bases. Trout’s K rate last season was 26.1 percent. His BABIP was .349 and he stole 16 bases.

Obviously, Trout is doing this in the major leagues as opposed to MiLB. But you are constantly giving off the impression that you’ve never seen KB play and are just playing a numbers game that doesn’t really make sense. The kid is a monster. The pictures from when he was at USD make him look like Jack and the Beanstalk as compared to his teammates. He has easy power to all fields, amazing plate coverage and a good eye. He’s also a diligent worker and a capable 3B glove. He augments his skillset by also being a smart player and base runner.

KB had 594 MiLB PAs last season; 86 ended in BBs. Of the remaining 508, 43 of them ended over the fence. That’s 11.8 percent of his official ABs. He also had 35 other XBHs. I can’t tell you how many balls I thought were HRs that hit off the RF wall at Principal Park last season, but it was quite a few.

He ran out of gas at the end of last season (by far the longest of his professional career) to “only” finish with a RC+ of 164 in AAA. This was significant because every other stop saw him finish with a RC+ of 200+. By comparison, McCuthen led the league with a 168 RC+ last season and Trout was second at 167. Ruth is the all-time leader at 197.

Obviously, he will have to make his adjustments at the MLB level, as does every player hoping to make a name for himself in the Bigs, but there is no reason to think he won’t be able to do this. And considering he’s a 3B, and Luis Valbuena was 7th among all qualified 3B last season in OPS at .776 (Luis Valbuena!), his performance can be only 3/4 of what it was in the minors in 2014 and he’ll still already be a top 10 3B in his rookie season in 2015.

Rational Fan
11 years ago
Reply to  Jason

Are we really even inferring a comparison between Trout and Bryant’s speed? My goodness.

Last year was Trout’s worst year, and it can be attributed to the fact that he had such a spike in his K-Rate. His career average is 22% – Bryant’s MiLB K-Rate is north of 26%.

Why are you comparing AAA numbers to MLB numbers? Please stop. I will say it again, the Kris Bryant hype is way overblown.

BipMember since 2016
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

You’ll have to explain that one. Does the impact of K’s increase exponentially? Is the jump from 26% to 30% worse than the jump from 22% to 26%?

A guy with elite power and elite batted ball authority who can take a walk can maintain a much higher strikeout rate than a player without those skills and still be productive. This much should be self evident. A player with Bryant’s skill set, just mathematically, can add more value on offense with a 26% K rate than Ben Revere can with a 13% K rate.

The question I have is whether you are saying what you seem to be saying. Is there a threshold after which strikeouts cause a sort of avalanche effect, where it drags everything down with it? Is a 26% minor league K rate some harbinger that the player is doomed for 40% major league K rates? Because if not, then you can easily be proven wrong, mathematically. Mathematically, a guy with a 10+% BB rate, elite HR/FB rate, and elite BABIP is still a productive hitter even at a 30% K rate.

mutant beast
11 years ago
Reply to  Jason

Hmm-Babe Ruth and Reggie Jackson each Kd more than 2000 times in there MLB careers. Im sure any of us would like them on our teams.

Rational Fan
11 years ago
Reply to  mutant beast

What? Babe Ruth’s career K-Rate is 12.5%.

Reggie Jackson’s career K-Rate was 22.5%.

People seem to not understand…. Bryant projects to K nearly 29% of the time.

Jason
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

You keep marginalizing or stretching the numbers to make them fit your narrative. Steamer projects Bryant’s K rate at 28.4 percent. But that’s obviously just a guess, as he has zero MLB ABs so far. Offense is down across all of MLB. Power is in short supply, especially right-handed power. Quality 3B are also in short supply.

My reason for putting in the SB numbers is you seem to say that Bryant is a lumbering oaf on the bases, but this is simply not the case. He’s not fast because he’s so big, but he’s still young and can run. He’s also a smart base runner who is able to pick his spots well.

Trout’s Steamer projections are basically a statistical average of his first few seasons. (23.5 percent K rate) But that’s not the player he is anymore. He basically looks like a linebacker now. He doesn’t run unless it’s early in the game or a SB would be a huge factor in tying the game late. His defense has correlated this drop in speed, as his numbers in CF have fallen precipitously since his rookie year. He’s still fast, obviously, but he’s not the burner he was in 2012.

Trout struck out in 21.8 percent of his ABs in 2012 and put up a RC+ of 167. Then he struck out in 26.1 percent of his ABs in 2014 and put up a RC+ of 167. Your dire concerns over a 4 percent difference in K rate for a guy with light-tower power who is expected to provide average defense at a premium position is severely overblown.

Rational Fan
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

3rd base was one of baseball’s deepest positions last year.

Seager
Frazier
Beltre
Donaldson
Santana
Carpenter
Sandoval
Longo
Arenado
Wright

That’s 10, and it’s not even counting the young guys coming up like Castellanos, Harrison (if you wanna call him a 3rd baseman), Moose and Lawrie.

3rd base is one of the deepest positions around baseball right now.

Rational Fan
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

Also, where does it say Bryant is an average defender at 3rd? I have read countless pieces stating his inevitable move to the OF. That doesn’t sound like a league average 3rd baseman to me.

Jason
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

Do you play fantasy baseball at all? 3B was a black hole last season. Instead of just naming guys you think are good because you’ve heard of them, why don’t you actually look up the numbers of that “amazing” list of 3B you rattled off there?

Only 10 PA-qualified 3B last year accumulated more than 3 WAR in 2014. Only eight 3B last year put up a .760 OPS or better last season. (One of them was Luis Valbuena.) Wright finished sub-.700. Santana played 26 games at 3B. Castellanos put up a -0.5 WAR season in 2014. Lawrie’s OBP was .301 in 2014 and he’s a huge injury risk. Moose hit .212 last year and put up a RC+ of 76. Kung Fu Panda finished with a .739 OPS and 3 WAR, your consummate average starter at a position. And the Red Sox gave him $95M despite his weight issues and the fact that he’s approaching 30.

Bryant was voted the PCL’s best defender at 3B last season. I’ve seen him play. He’s got soft hands and a lot of range diving at balls just because he’s so long and lanky. He also has a strong arm. The concerns about him moving off 3B are because he’s SO BIG that he will likely outgrow the position at some point. But when he’s still young, he should be able to handle it. But he’ll likely move to the OF as he ages, the same way Trout has already been moved to LF as his linebacker-ish physique became more pronounced.

Cool Lester Smooth
11 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

To be fair, Jason, the Sox gave him that much because they decided to change things up and be idiots who pay for past performance, not because he’s worth anywhere near that much money.

Eliassen Sports Bureau
11 years ago
Reply to  mutant beast

Dude Babe Ruth, really? Guy played over 2500 games and 21 years of ball, of course he struck out 2000 times…

Joe
11 years ago

Unless he becomes Gary Scott 2.0, he’s the best third baseman the Cubs have produced since Ron Santo. He can strike out, he can play passable defense…it’s all okay. The power he has is going to be a beautiful thing to watch on the North Side.

As a Cubs fan, it’s hard to be rational about Kris Bryant. We see the numbers, we know the promise…and yet, there are flaws to work out. Lots of prospects strike out early in their career, especially prospects with elite power. He’s not different than other prospects except that he has power to all fields and is not completely a “boom or bust” hitter.

All of this is a long way of saying I’m glad he’s on my team and not anyone else’s. Give us Bryant, even with his flaws, and keep the rest.

Dovif
11 years ago
Reply to  Joe

There are lots of prospect with k flaws early in their career. Most of thosr we are talking 20-25% k rate Baez and Bryant are outliers.
Facts are talented sp in aaa is rare these days most top prospects skips aaa or spend very little time there. Most aaa sps are a teams 8-9 best starting option.

Using a Cubs example. Bryant and Baez might do a lot of damage with aaa sp like wood or Jackson, but if they had 30% k rate agant sp who do not belong in ml. What will it look like when they fact Lester and arrieta everyday. Can they ever be above mediocre at 40% k rate, or can they get better? Neither of Bryant or Baez had improve their k rate between minor levels

mutant beast
11 years ago
Reply to  Joe

Bryant and Soler to me are there 2 best prospects, I havent seen enough of Russell to make much of the “eye test”. I saw Soler play about 10 games last Sept, the kid looks legit. Hit Hrs(and I mean bombs) off quality pitchers like Mat Latos and Pat Neshek. 22 rbi in less than 100Abs. Maybe he might not end up a star, but he certainly created a good first impression.

Kevin Orie
11 years ago
Reply to  Joe

“… he’s the best third baseman the Cubs have produced since Ron Santo.” Oh boy.

Kerry Wood
11 years ago
Reply to  Kevin Orie

You.

Hurtlocker
11 years ago

Would love to see the Cubs succeed. They have enough great prospects that they might be exciting to watch.

CRPerry13
11 years ago

I’ve thought the Springer/Bryant comp to be a good one for a while, for the reasons stated. However, I pose the question: Is Springer with 30- or 40-grade speed a great baseball player? Or merely a good one with launching pad power? Adam Dunn with lower OBP? Isn’t that pretty close to Russell Branyan?

Bryant won’t be able to sustain a BABIP as high as Springer, because speed to beat out bloopers and infield singles. Defensively, he doesn’t draw good reviews at third. Average, sure, maybe even “decent”, but not “good”.

I think Bryant’s going to be incredibly productive (just as I thought Russell Branyan would have been with his fare shake of PA’s), but I do think the hype train is a little off the rails at present.

berb
11 years ago
Reply to  CRPerry13

Bryant’s speed is rated as 50/45 by Kiley on Fangraphs. So, you’re only off by a lot there… If you watch video of him running, he’s not slow and isn’t even remotely the clomping, slow-footed giant you make him out to be.

You don’t have to exaggerate to make your argument.

BipMember since 2016
11 years ago
Reply to  CRPerry13

Speed is not nearly the most important input to BABIP. There are some really slow players on top of the BABIP leaderboards over large samples, like Votto and Cabrera.

nilbog44
11 years ago

I hope he isn’t the next Evan Longoria. I hope he’s better than that over-hyped “super star”

Garrett
11 years ago
Reply to  nilbog44

Sweet Lord, this is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever read on FanGraphs.

BipMember since 2016
11 years ago
Reply to  Garrett

i think fangraphs was created for the express purpose of admiring the Longoria contract

Free_AEC
11 years ago

Ryan Howard grouped with Jack Cust?

Best four HR seasons:

HOWARD

58
48
47
45

JACK CUST

33
26
25
13

Do you get paid for this gig? Are you the guy from San Diego who went on a 20 minute podcast rant about how stupid people from New Jersey are?

Four best HR seasons

JIM THOME (who Howard put out of work in Philly)

52
49
47
42

GIANCARLO STANTON

37
37
34
24

Howard clearly belongs in the superstar group.
_

JayT
11 years ago
Reply to  Free_AEC

Nobody ever denied Howard had 80-grade power. It was his lack of any other plus skill that kept him from being a superstar.

BipMember since 2016
11 years ago
Reply to  JayT

Also, when he was hitting all those homers, he was an elite player (though still somewhat overrated.) However, due some very exploitable flaws in his swing, he clearly is nowhere near being elite now.

Free_AEC
11 years ago
Reply to  Bip

JACK CUST and RICHIE SEXSON
are
no longer
in
MLB

FIGURE IT OUT

BipMember since 2016
11 years ago
Reply to  Bip

WHAT
are you
talking
ABOUT

?

Carson says
11 years ago
Reply to  Free_AEC

Good troll, bro.

Google Free_AEC felony fraud

Jojo
11 years ago

While this is about Bryant, as a Rangers fan this really highlights why we should really tap the brakes a bit on Gallo! If a 68% contact rate is concerning, 58% should be a terrifyingly pessimistic indicator!

CRPerry13
11 years ago
Reply to  Jojo

Gallo is frighteningly similar to Telvin Nash. Don’t know who he is? Neither do most people. Only difference between Nash and Gallo is position and age relative to level. I don’t think that’s enough to excuse his really scary contact profile.

mutant beast
11 years ago
Reply to  Jojo

Gallo right now is a LH Dave Kingman. Frightening comp.

mutant beast
11 years ago

Im going to ask one thing about Kris Bryant. How many pitches was he TAKING that were strikes before he got to 2 strikes? He sees a lot of pitches apparently, and will take borderline strikes. Can that account for his high % of swinging strikes?

inego montoya
11 years ago
Reply to  mutant beast

You use the word “swinging strikes.” I do not think it means what you think it means…

Cool Lester Smooth
11 years ago
Reply to  inego montoya

Actually, it does. If he’s behind in the count early on, because he’s taking strikes, he’ll be forced to expand his zone and swing at non-ideal pitches.

BipMember since 2016
11 years ago

Rational Fan

Like I said in the last comment thread about this: you strongly objected to the ZiPS projection that Bryant received this year. Unlike prospect rankings, which incorporate a lot of subjective assessment, ZiPS is an objective system that can be shown to be biased with objectively unassailable data. You claimed basically that high-K/low-contact hitting prospects are overrated as a group, including by ZiPS itself.

It’s clear no one here really buys what you’re selling. So let’s see some of that objective data. This is not the ESPN comments section. If you prove it, we’ll believe it. If all you do is offer your subjective prospect evaluation in contrast to the consensus evaluation like a contrarian, you’ll be treated like a contrarian.

Economics
11 years ago

Player A) .255/.342/.456 29 HR’s 126 wRC+
Player B) .256/.339/.500 29 HR’s 127 wRC+

Player A: Josh Donaldson’s All Star 2014 season
Player B: Kris Bryant 2015 season ZiPS projection

TigerTown'68'84
11 years ago
Reply to  Economics

Holy moly. This seems a bit out there.

Rick
11 years ago

Who doesn’t wish Bryant was on their team? I’m waiting?

TigerTown'68'84
11 years ago
Reply to  Rick

As a tigers fan I would kill for Bryant. Even for 1 legit top 100 prospect.