Kyle Schwarber and Hefty Leadoff Hitters
Yesterday, Chicago Cubs manager Joe Maddon made some headlines by claiming he was considering making Kyle Schwarber his leadoff hitter this season. Mostly, that this was a big headline reflects the fact that this is one of the slowest times in the baseball calendar — players have been at camp for awhile now, yet games are just beginning, and in many cases the best players haven’t suited up yet. It’s a slow time. Still, it’s an interesting idea. The first thought that came to my mind was, would Kyle Schwarber be the heaviest leadoff hitter of all-time?
In this case, “all-time” is going to be defined as 1973 to the present, because we don’t have play-by-play data, and therefore don’t know who were the leadoff hitters, for the time before then. Still though, that’s 44 years of baseball history. Pretty decent sample size to work from.
Let’s take a look. How often do guys hit leadoff, anyway? We say leadoff hitter, but these days anyway (and probably in most days) teams have multiple leadoff hitters. The gulf was actually pretty wide last season. On the low side, you have the Rangers at 40 games for their most frequent hitter (Shin-Soo Choo) and 43 for the Blue Jays (Devon Travis) to 148 for the Tigers (148) and 147 for the Diamondbacks (Jean Segura). After the Blue Jays, there’s a jump up to 66 games. So, we’ll round up to 50, since most teams had a leadoff hitter who started as the leadoff hitter at least that frequently.
Schwarber’s listed weight is 235. Since 1973, there have been just eight player seasons where a player of that weight or higher batted leadoff. However, it’s here where we need to realize the limitations of our weight data. You’ll see why quickly:
| Name | Leadoff G | season | Height | Height 2 | Weight |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Marlon Byrd | 79 | 2003 | 6’0″ | 72″ | 245 |
| Barry Bonds | 77 | 1986 | 6’2″ | 74″ | 240 |
| Barry Bonds | 122 | 1987 | 6’2″ | 74″ | 240 |
| Barry Bonds | 131 | 1988 | 6’2″ | 74″ | 240 |
| Barry Bonds | 110 | 1989 | 6’2″ | 74″ | 240 |
| Lenny Harris | 82 | 1990 | 5’10” | 70″ | 235 |
| Mike Trout | 138 | 2012 | 6’1″ | 73″ | 235 |
| Jason Heyward | 94 | 2014 | 6’4″ | 76″ | 235 |
| Corey Hart | 56 | 2007 | 6’6″ | 78″ | 230 |
| Corey Hart | 63 | 2011 | 6’6″ | 78″ | 230 |
The weights we have listed are a player’s last listed weight. For most players, this isn’t a huge deal. Most players don’t have long enough major league careers to have dramatic weight fluctuations. Among those who do have long careers, we can guesstimate that probably half of them maintain a fairly consistent weight. But there are certainly those who don’t. Barry Bonds is one of those who didn’t. It’s unlikely that the Bonds of 1986-1989 weighed 240 lbs., but because that’s the last listed weight for Bonds, it’s how he shows up in our database. That would leave Marlon Byrd, Lenny Harris, Mike Trout, Jason Heyward and Corey Hart as leadoff hitters who weighed at least 230 lbs. Heyward and Hart and Schwarber don’t exactly have the same body type though, so let’s also sort by BMI.
| Name | Leadoff G | Season | Height | Height 2 | Weight | BMI |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Lenny Harris | 82 | 1990 | 5’10” | 70″ | 235 | 33.7 |
| Marlon Byrd | 79 | 2003 | 6’0″ | 72″ | 245 | 33.2 |
| Kirby Puckett | 128 | 1984 | 5’8″ | 68″ | 210 | 31.9 |
| Kirby Puckett | 160 | 1985 | 5’8″ | 68″ | 210 | 31.9 |
| Kirby Puckett | 128 | 1986 | 5’8″ | 68″ | 210 | 31.9 |
| Brett Lawrie | 62 | 2012 | 5’11” | 71″ | 225 | 31.4 |
| Ronnie Belliard | 92 | 2000 | 5’9″ | 69″ | 211 | 31.2 |
| Ronnie Belliard | 82 | 2003 | 5’9″ | 69″ | 211 | 31.2 |
| Ronnie Belliard | 53 | 2004 | 5’9″ | 69″ | 211 | 31.2 |
| Mike Trout | 138 | 2012 | 6’1″ | 73″ | 235 | 31.0 |
BMI = (Weight in Pounds / (Height in inches x Height in inches)) x 703
Schwarber’s BMI, for his listed height (6’0″) and weight (235), is 31.9. I realize that BMI isn’t the best measure, but since we don’t have a database of player waist measurements, it’s the best we can do. And as we can see, few have had a higher BMI than Schwarber — just Harris and Byrd. Schwarber is right there with Kirby Puckett. So, we can say pretty concretely that Schwarber would be a historical outlier. But just for the sake of completeness, let’s look at this from a career perspective:
| Name | Ld PA | H | H2 | Weight | BMI | Name | Ld PA | H | H2 | Weight | BMI |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Adam Dunn | 73 | 6’6″ | 78″ | 285 | 32.9 | Lenny Harris | 822 | 5’10” | 70″ | 235 | 33.7 |
| Elijah Dukes | 84 | 6’1″ | 73″ | 248 | 32.7 | Marlon Byrd | 673 | 6’0″ | 72″ | 245 | 33.2 |
| Marlon Byrd | 673 | 6’0″ | 72″ | 245 | 33.2 | Juan Uribe | 280 | 6’0″ | 72″ | 245 | 33.2 |
| Juan Uribe | 280 | 6’0″ | 72″ | 245 | 33.2 | Alberto Callaspo | 93 | 5’9″ | 69″ | 225 | 33.2 |
| Barry Bonds | 2069 | 6’2″ | 74″ | 240 | 30.8 | Adam Dunn | 73 | 6’6″ | 78″ | 285 | 32.9 |
| Josh Hamilton | 122 | 6’4″ | 76″ | 240 | 29.2 | Elijah Dukes | 84 | 6’1″ | 73″ | 248 | 32.7 |
| Lenny Harris | 822 | 5’10” | 70″ | 235 | 33.7 | Travis Snider | 134 | 6’0″ | 72″ | 235 | 31.9 |
| Travis Snider | 134 | 6’0″ | 72″ | 235 | 31.9 | Brett Lawrie | 318 | 5’11” | 71″ | 225 | 31.4 |
| Mike Trout | 733 | 6’1″ | 73″ | 235 | 31.0 | Adrian Beltre | 108 | 5’11” | 71″ | 225 | 31.4 |
| Yasiel Puig | 204 | 6’3″ | 75″ | 235 | 29.4 | Mike Trout | 733 | 6’1″ | 73″ | 235 | 31.0 |
| Jason Heyward | 588 | 6’4″ | 76″ | 235 | 28.6 |
BMI = (Weight in Pounds / (Height in inches x Height in inches)) x 703
Here we’ve lowered the bar to 50 career PA as a leadoff hitter, so as to catch some players that we didn’t see before, and we do see some new faces. But the result is the same. If Scwarber was to get a decent amount of time at the leadoff spot, he’d be right up there with Harris and Byrd, and would certainly still be an outlier.
One player you don’t see on these lists is a player Maddon mentioned as a comparison in that news story — Brian Downing. On the one hand, you can see why Maddon used the 5’10”, 170 lb. Downing as an example. His career Spd was 3.1, and in 2015, Schwarber’s Spd was 4.7. On the other hand, as a 24-year-old, Downing stole 13 bases, an then at 25, he stole seven more. For his career, Downing stole 50 bases, and was green lit to run 94 times. From age 21-23, Schwarber only stole nine bases, so I’m not sure that they’ll be on the same footing.
Of course, if Schwarber hits the way he’s capable of, no one is going to care. OBP is life. Life is OBP. I do want to look at one more table before we go though, inspired by one of the new names we see on that third table above.
| Name | Leadoff PA | Height | Height 2 | Weight | BMI | Career K% |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Lenny Harris | 822 | 5’10” | 70″ | 235 | 33.7 | 7.9% |
| Marlon Byrd | 673 | 6’0″ | 72″ | 245 | 33.2 | 20.2% |
| Juan Uribe | 280 | 6’0″ | 72″ | 245 | 33.2 | 18.2% |
| Alberto Callaspo | 93 | 5’9″ | 69″ | 225 | 33.2 | 9.2% |
| Adam Dunn | 73 | 6’6″ | 78″ | 285 | 32.9 | 28.6% |
| Elijah Dukes | 84 | 6’1″ | 73″ | 248 | 32.7 | 20.3% |
| Travis Snider | 134 | 6’0″ | 72″ | 235 | 31.9 | 25.0% |
| Brett Lawrie | 318 | 5’11” | 71″ | 225 | 31.4 | 20.1% |
| Adrian Beltre | 108 | 5’11” | 71″ | 225 | 31.4 | 14.1% |
| Mike Trout | 733 | 6’1″ | 73″ | 235 | 31.0 | 22.0% |
BMI = (Weight in Pounds / (Height in inches x Height in inches)) x 703
Look at the K%’s here. Is Schwarber the new Adam Dunn? Back in June 2003, when Dunn was also probably a little thinner (though he was always a pretty big boy), he started a block of 12 games in the leadoff spot. He did OK — for that block of games, he hit .163/.357/.442, with 11 walks (19.6% BB%) against 15 strikeouts (26.8% K%). If you look at his splits as a leadoff hitter, you’ll see he did significantly better than that, but that takes into account a few random games following this 12-game block. After June 16, the final date in the block, Dunn never got a real chance to hit leadoff again. You can understand why. Dunn did fine, but it’s not like he tore the cover off the ball.
Will Schwarber hold the leadoff job for longer than that? Only time will tell. Certainly, from a wOBA perspective, he’s projected to be one of the four best hitters in the Cubs’ lineup. But so is Ben Zobrist, one of the other players mentioned in the article as a candidate to hit leadoff. Before long, I would think that Zobrist would take the reins, if he doesn’t from day one. Dexter Fowler hit leadoff most frequently for the Cubs last season, but after him, it was Zobrist, who led off 20 games. Zobrist also hit leadoff for Maddon in Tampa Bay on a not infrequent basis — his high-water mark in fact came in their last year in Tampa together, when Zobrist led off in 47 games.
Kyle Schwarber is projected to have a good season, and certainly he should post an OBP worthy of hitting leadoff. But given his weight (and high strikeout percentage), he would be a historic outlier. It’s the sort of thing that would certainly work, but it’s probably closer to the sort of logic that allows you to bring in your closer with a five-run lead. It’s a little too cute, especially when there are better players suited for the task. Given Zobrist’s higher projected OBP and lower projected SLG, it probably makes more sense for Zobrist to leadoff, and for Schwarber to hit cleanup after Bryant and Anthony Rizzo bat in the two- and three-hole.
Paul Swydan used to be the managing editor of The Hardball Times, a writer and editor for FanGraphs and a writer for Boston.com and The Boston Globe. Now, he owns The Silver Unicorn Bookstore, an independent bookstore in Acton, Mass. Follow him on Twitter @Swydan. Follow the store @SilUnicornActon.
Hey Paul, there’s a pretty decent article on BleedCubbieBlue (I know) from a contributor that actually makes a very solid argument for Willson Contreras as the team’s lead-off guy. You should check it out.
http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2017/2/24/14719274/yo-joe-willson-should-leadoff-not-kyle
Thanks for the plug. The only leadoff body type comps I could come up with (and Paul does much more thorough job than I did) are Carlos Santana and Russell Martin.
Santana was the most frequent leadoff hitter for the 2016 Indians, and while the media guide says he’s 5-11 210, I just don’t believe it, but don’t have any evidence that says otherwise. Martin led off a lot for mid 2000s Dodgers and is listed as 5-10 205. Anyway you cut it I couldn’t find a current or recent player who is as husky as Schwarber.
One final note that I found during my research that I wasn’t expecting–Schwarber’s 2015 BsR score of 2.4 was identical to that of Jaiver Baez’s 2016 BsR score!
Not much to add to this but does everyone remember in MVP Baseball 2005 that Adam Dunn actually had the speed icon by him! He was a decent base stealer in that game.
YES!!! My friend and I drafted players, and I remember having Dunn in RF and Erstad at 1B because he was the only 1B who had the speed icon.
Elijiah Dukes and Ronnie Belliard must have missed the memo that all ballplayer weights have to end in 0 or 5.
Speaking as an old fart, I assure you, Brian Downing was not any faster a leadoff man than Schwarber would be.
He probably ran OK as a younger guy, but by the time the Angels started using him as a leadoff hitter in his 30s, he’d been a full-time catcher for years, and it showed. Those 2-3 steals a year probably came from Mauch calling hit-and-run plays.
Was going to post much the same thing. Downing was one of the 1st guys to openly embrace weightlifting and went from a normal sized guy in his younger days with the Sox in the 70’s to a fairly muscle-bound guy later in his career with the Angels and Rangers in the 80’s. As you noted, that’s when he actually started to hit leadoff – twice he was over 100 games at leadoff and another 3 times over 50. He’s actually probably a pretty good comp for Schwarber as far as athleticism.
BTW, Downing’s ht/wt here on Fangraphs is 5’10” and 194, not 170. That’s a BMI of 27.8, still short of the guys listed.
Not much to add to these comments about Downing, except that I’m surprised he wasn’t over 200 lbs. by the time he became a leadoff hitter.
Not sure if he ever led off but I keep thinking of Matt Stairs as a comp for Schwarber – Stairs being a prodigious offensive talent with a bad body/defensively challenged profile that got him buried in another era.
2003 Marlon Byrd wasn’t exactly 2016 Marlon Byrd, either.
Ditto for 1990 Lenny Harris vs. 2005 Lenny Harris.
BondsGraphs
One thing can be said about hefty lead-off hitters:
They can turn a single into a double…cheeseburger that is.
Maddon probably got the idea because the Indians did this pretty much the whole of 2016 with Carlos Santana, tbh.
they were already talking/testing it in spring training last year.
If only the rest of us could get by on our listed weights.
Bartolo Colon needs to hit leadoff just for the heck of it.
I never knew the Tigers had a leadoff batter whose name was a number.
That’s a typo.
(148) should be (148 III), as he was grandson of the dead-ball-era player.
Does this configuration make more sense if they plan to play Schwarber in LF and substitute for him defensively? How many extra plate appearances would they get for Schwarber that way, vs. batting him fourth?
I came here to see if Shirtless Bartolo Colon was going to make an argument to bat leadoff, I leave disappointed.
I’m a Brave, but I’m not that brave.
The stolen bases comparison for a basis for comparing speed seems to go against common understanding that speed is more than just that, also not mentioning that Schwarber’s “21-23” age seasons consists of not even 1 entire seasons. Rest of the article is alright, that part just seemed like spin.
I’m with Zobrist. He had a .386 OBP last year, more walks than strikeouts, and hasn’t fully torn his ACL and LCL in the last 12 months. Is there a downside that I’m missing?
Zobrist was the obvious pick, but Maddon has stated he likes the contract-oriented bat in the middle of the lineup.
he likes zobrist behind rizzo as good hitting switch hitter in late game situations (bullpen matchups). he believes Schwarbs behind Bryant and Rizzo he would get loogy’d alot in late games and pitched around alot other times.
I’ve never used it, but I thought Project Retrosheet had play-by-play data going back much farther 1973. Anyone use it? I just checked and found some play by play data from the 1930s, though I don’t know how easy it is to use.
Yes play-by-play data (lineups) is certainly available on retrosheet earlier than 1973. I don’t know where he got that from.
2002 Jeremy Giambi…
Bbref lists him @6’0″ 185, but the A’s team site has him at 216… with all the roids, could be closer to Schwarber zone
You mentioned that Zobrist has hit leadoff before, but not how he did there. Career splits:
— Batting leadoff (155 games): .330 OBP, .706 OPS.
— Batting anywhere else: .362 OBP, .803 OPS.
I don’t claim that those numbers tell how Zobrist would hit in the leadoff role this year. Good hitters should hit wherever they go. But he didn’t hit well there in 20 starts last year, or in 47 starts there in 2014, or in 26 starts there in 2010. And Maddon saw all of that first-hand.
So I don’t see Joe asking a 36-year-old with average speed to fill a role he’s never filled well, just because Schwarber doesn’t fit the leadoff body type.
If there’s one thing known by everyone here, it’s that the leadoff spot has been the most often miscast role in major league history. Too much Luis Aparicio, not enough Brian Downing. So the fact that Schwarber doesn’t look the part worries me not a bit. After all, he doesn’t look like a #2 hitter, either, but he’s done that job quite well.
Given that players typically hit better with men on base, I would guess that most hitters fare worse in the leadoff spot (especially in the NL). Whether the gap is relatively larger for Zobrist, I’m not sure.
Jason Kendall with the 2005 A’s.
I’m surprised Edgar didn’t make the 50 PA list. He was painfully slow, but a true master of OBP. (And a smart base runner).
On a team like the cubs where they dont really have a speed guy does it matter if their leadoff hitter is fat and slow? Its not like they have any other options (maybe Heyward if he can turn things around)
“Too cute” was my immediate reaction the first time Maddon floated this idea. I don’t want to be a meathead about “clogging the bases” or anything, but it’s not as if they lack other hitters with good on-base skills. I can think of a couple times in the World Series alone where Bryant got on first and made something happen on the bases (that Schwarber would not have) when Rizzo put the ball in play. If you’re going to shake up the old school ideas about batting orders and you have three guys who you really believe in and who all get on base and hit for power, I don’t see why you wouldn’t still prefer the better runners hitting in front of the weaker ones. Whether you bat them 1-3 or 2-4, to my mind Bryant-Rizzo-Schwarber is the natural order for the three.
How do you know that Schwarber would not have made the same things happen? Schwarber is not slow — he swiped a bag in Game 7 — and Bryant is no speed demon.
So far in their careers, there’s no sign that Bryant is a significantly better baserunner. Schwarber has a better rate of extra bases advanced on teammates’ hits, a lower rate of outs made on the bases, and has scored in a higher percentage of his times on base. His sample’s too small to prove anything yet, but I see no problem at all with him leading off.
Bryant has been top 2 in BsR since he came up, so I think it’s a fairly safe assumption that Schwarber won’t be as valuable on the bases.
BsR totals are affected by Bryant’s more than 4-to-1 edge in playing time so far. But their rates aren’t far apart: Bryant 7.0 BsR per 150 games, Schwarber 5.0 per 150.
The projections on FG have Bryant stepping down below 3 BsR this year, with Schwarber around 0.5.
And using B-R’s figure for WAR Runs(baserunning+DP), Bryant’s at 2.5 per 150 games, and Schwarber at 2.1.
So I still see no conclusive proof that Bryant is a significantly more valuable baserunner than Schwarber.
“So I still see no conclusive proof that Bryant is a significantly more valuable baserunner than Schwarber.”
I think what your looking for is the first three paragraphs of your very own post:
BsR/150: Bryant >> Schwarber
FG projections: Bryant >>Schwarber
BR’s WAR runs: Bryant > Schwarber
Done!
It isn’t like the Cubs ran Fowler all that much at leadoff so I really don’t think speed is a concern for the Cubs. You really don’t want someone getting gunned down at 2nd with Bryant-Rizzo-Zobrist behind them and the Cubs don’t have any really legit speedsters anyway.
Schwarber can get on base and he is juuuust quick enough to go 1st to 3rd on well placed singles. In a perfect world Addison Russell would be the leadoff hitter but until he displays some sort of consistency, that isn’t going to happen. Contreras at leadoff is an intriguing idea, but still leaves you needing someone else to leadoff 2 times a week.
I’m sure Maddon will move all the pieces around for a few months until he settles on something.
One thing that hasn’t been covered much here (but has elsewhere) is that Schwarber is not a finished product. For one, he crushes righties and dies against lefties. We’d expect him to get better with more practice but do you want him to be working that out at the top of the order, or in the #3-#5 spot?
Another thing: Do you teach him to change his hitting approach to just get on base like a stereotypical leadoff hitter, or do you ask him to swing for the fences? Is that something hitters can just toggle on and off? Do you need more experience to do it? If you try too many different approaches with a young player, do they get stuck there or are they more versatile?
Does it matter which spot you’re in? Your job is always to try not to make an out, whether you’re batting leadoff or cleanup.
I don’t know the answer to this, but we know that batters do change their approach over time. So if someone is batting leadoff, do the coaches instruct them to bat any differently, and would that change their development?
One more thing and then I’ll stop: I was paging through the projections and Jason Heyward has the same projected OBP as Schwarber. And he’s done well batting first in the past there so if you think he’s right, then he’s the next most likely candidate behind Zobrist. But if you don’t think he’s right, how badly do you think the Cubs are kicking themselves right now for signing him instead of Fowler to a cheaper longer-term contract last offseason?
Great choice for a post, Paul! Reminded me of the alleged line from Art Howe while managing the Moneyball A’s: “I’m the only manager in the league who has to pinch run for his leadoff hitter!” The player in question: the svelte 6’0 185 lb Jeremy Giambi.