Let’s Find the Dodgers a Second Baseman
For the better part of the off-season, the Dodgers and Twins have reportedly been trying to strike a fair deal for Brian Dozier. The Twins second baseman is a highly valuable player, but with only two years left of team control, he’s probably a better fit for a contender than a rebuilder, and right now, the Twins are still in the latter category. But, for whatever reason, the two sides seem to value Dozier differently, and as of last week, it appears that both teams have decided there isn’t a fit, at least not right now.
Sources: #Twins, #Dodgers at impasse on Dozier. No momentum toward deal. 1/2
— Ken Rosenthal (@Ken_Rosenthal) January 10, 2017
Impasse on Dozier does not preclude future talks, but #Twins had wanted to give Dozier heightened peace of mind on status with club. 2/2
— Ken Rosenthal (@Ken_Rosenthal) January 10, 2017
So, with Dozier potentially off the table, let’s see if we can find the Dodgers another second baseman.
Various rumors throughout the winter have suggested that Ian Kinsler might be the Dodgers fallback plan if they can’t land Dozier, but I continue to fail to see why the Tigers would make him available. While they seemingly floated a trial balloon at the start of the winter that they might make some veterans-for-young-player deals, the entire extent of Detriot’s off-season so far has been shipping Cameron Maybin to Anaheim and claiming Daniel Stumpf off waivers from Kansas City. They still have almost exactly the same roster they ended last season with, and unless they have some weird February blockbusters in store, there’s no real reason for the Tigers to trade Kinsler now.
With no moves towards getting younger, the Tigers should just keep the gang together and try to win again in 2017. The fact that Kinsler has a no-trade clause and has reportedly demanded an extension to consider waiving it also makes him a poor fit for the Dodgers, so despite the speculation around a deal between LA and Detroit, I just don’t really see a trade to be made here. So let’s look at the other 28 teams and see if we can find a deal.
Obviously, guys like Jose Altuve and Dustin Pedroia are out, as their teams are quite happy with their options at second base and are going to try to win with what they have. Most of the good second baseman in baseball are on contending teams, and contenders generally aren’t in the business of dealing away quality big leaguers. The teams that are selling off talent are pretty weak at the position, and so while I’m sure Rick Hahn would love to get some of the Dodgers young talent, it’s hard to see Andrew Friedman being all that excited about Brett Lawrie.
So, with most of the good teams and basically all of the bad teams as poor fits, we’re left looking for trade partners who might have enough depth at the position to be motivated to make a move, or looking for another case like the Twins where there’s a solid player on a shorter contract where there’d be motivation to exchange present value for future value. And in that range, I think I can see three potential options for the Dodgers.
This isn’t an original idea or anything; Logan Forsythe’s name has been mentioned as the other Dozier alternative in rumors for a good chunk of the winter, and there are enough similarities there to suggest that if LA was interested in one, they should be interested in the other. Like Dozier, Forsythe is a late bloomer who has taken a big step forward by figuring out how to hit for power, and if you just look at their numbers since Forsythe’s big 2015 breakout, they look pretty similar.
| Name | BB% | K% | ISO | BABIP | wRC+ |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Brian Dozier | 9% | 21% | 0.243 | 0.270 | 117 |
| Logan Forsythe | 9% | 20% | 0.171 | 0.319 | 119 |
Dozier hits more home runs, but Forsythe hits more line drives, so the difference in ISO is mostly offset by the difference in BABIP. Dozier’s track record of performing at this level is longer, and he’s got advantages in both baserunning and defensive value, but it’s easy to see why Forsythe would be a reasonable alternative for LA now that they seem to be unable to land Dozier. When you toss in the fact that Forsythe is signed to a very similar contract to Dozier, there are a lot of similarities between the two options.
That said, I’m not sure I see a strong reason for the Rays to make a deal here. While they did just move Drew Smyly and his two years of remaining club control for longer-term pieces in Mallex Smith and a low-level teenage prospect, the Rays were dealing from a source of depth in their rotation, and that isn’t really the case at second base. Nick Franklin’s weaknesses on defense at against lefties make him a platoon guy at best, and given that Steamer is projecting just a 90 wRC+, even that is a generous assessment; he fits best a bench piece. The Rays traded Smyly because they had too many pitchers, but they don’t have too many second baseman.
And while they lost 94 games a year ago, so you could talk yourself into thinking they should trade any short-term value pieces they have, they were a .500 team by BaseRuns, and the Rays are more likely to see themselves as a fringe contender than a team that needs to blow it up. I could potentially see a Forsythe deal working if the Dodgers were floating some pieces that could help Tampa Bay maintain the status quo and give them some long-term value, but Forsythe isn’t good enough to extract Jose De Leon, and I’m not sure the Rays really need more pithing depth.
On paper, you can see a potential fit here, but it’s harder to find a real reason for the Rays to trade their only good second baseman to LA for what the Dodgers would likely offer. It’s an option, probably, but maybe not the best one.
With Texas, it feels like we’ve been talking about potential middle-infielder trades for the last five years, and yet, Jurickson Profar is still a Ranger. With Elvis Andrus and Rougned Odor locking up the middle infield playing time, Profar is in a bit of an awkward spot. If he’s ever going to live up to his potential, he needs to play, but the Rangers only real path to regular playing time for him is at first base or desiginated hitter, and he doesn’t have the kind of offensive abilities that justify at-bats at those spots on a contender. The Rangers will almost certainly be signing someone from the current free agent market to take over at least one of those jobs, and given that they should be trying to capitalize on Yu Darvish’s walk year, it’s hard to imagine that they’ll really leave many 1B/DH at-bats for Profar.
So, Profar probably needs a change of scenery, but we’ve been saying that for years, and the numerous injuries have sapped a lot of his value. Thanks to his DL time, he’s already arbitration eligible, so while he’s still young-ish, the Rangers would only be selling three years of control, so there isn’t even that much long-term value to offset the risk that goes along with the fact that he has had so many injuries and hasn’t yet shown he can hit big league pitching. There’s still upside here, but Texas would almost certainly have to sell low on what it was thought he could be in order to move him now, and if they still believe in his talent, it might be tough to move a 24-year-old for pennies on the dollar.
That said, the Rangers still have a significant need on the pitching side of things, and the Dodgers have a bunch of extra arms who could serve as useful pieces for the Rangers. Guys like De Leon aren’t going to be on the table, but perhaps a guy like Ross Stripling — who could start or relieve, depending on how the Tyson Ross experiment works out — might get the Rangers interested. Whether Profar is a big enough upgrade over the other interesting-but-unproven options LA already has — both ZIPS and Steamer love Chris Taylor, for instance — might be the biggest roadblock to a deal, but if the Dodgers decide they want to take a shot on lower-cost upside instead of paying the post-breakout premium, then I could see a fit between the two sides.
This isn’t going to happen, because it’s pretty rare to see the two best teams in one league make a trade that makes the other better, but there isn’t a team in baseball with a better blocked second baseman than the Cubs. The Cubs were able to get Javier Baez into the line-up in the postseason because Kyle Schwarber was hurt (and then they got the DH in the World Series), but the team’s commitment to turning Schwarber into a core piece as their regular left fielder is going to make it difficult for Baez to play regularly in Chicago any time soon, since they still have Ben Zobrist around for another three years.
Sure, having depth is nice, and there will be some playing time for Baez in Chicago between off-days for Schwarber and Zobrist, plus he can spell Addison Russell at shortstop, but for a 24-year-old with his upside, a utility infielder role is a bit of a waste. The Cubs could afford to utilize him in that role last year, because they basically didn’t have any other holes on the team, but the 2017 Cubs probably aren’t going to be quite as good as the 2016 Cubs, and they may very well be better off if they turned Baez into a starting pitcher.
Right now, their #5 starter is Mike Montgomery, who has only ever pitched well in the Majors in relief; his .329/.269 wOBA allowed split between the rotation and the bullpen is a pretty good argument for his maximum value coming in relief, particularly with the team already short on left-handed bullpen arms. Their #6 starter, should Montgomery fail or any of their big four get hurt, is, uhh, Aaron Brooks, I guess? The guy you got for Chris Coghlan, who missed almost all of 2016 due to a hip injury, probably shouldn’t be pitching significant innings in your title-defense season.
All of that to say that the Cubs need another starting pitcher, and since the Dodgers seem willing to move De Leon for a second base upgrade, there’s a fit here. De Leon would be perfect for the Cubs, as they’ve talked openly about their desire to acquire young controllable starting pitching, and his skillset and minor league track record make him a Chicago kind of pitcher. As a guy who could step into the rotation in 2017 and fill a hole, but also could be a core member of their pitching staff after Arrieta and Lackey leave, De Leon offers the blend of short-term and long-term value that the Cubs covet.
Now, given his health question marks, I don’t know that a De Leon for Baez deal works straight up; Baez certainly has his own risks, but as a guy with power and elite defensive skills, his floor is a lot higher. In order to make a deal work, I’m guessing the Dodgers would have to potentially add on to De Leon a bit, and they refused to do that in order to land Dozier, a better player who would help them more in 2017.
But during his time in LA, Andrew Friedman has regularly chosen to acquire guys with more control even if they aren’t quite as good right now, and giving up what the Twins wanted for Dozier to acquire Baez instead would fit right into that trend. Maybe they send Taylor back as part of the deal to give the Cubs a replacement utility infielder, for instance. The Dodgers have the depth of useful role players that should be able to combine with De Leon to make a fair offer for Baez.
Like I said, it’s not happening. I’m sure the Cubs and Dodgers would prefer to not make each other better, and sending this kind of upside young player to the team most directly in your path back to the World Series is a scary proposition. But in reality, there’s no better fit out there. The Cubs have one too many good middle infielders, and are short on starting pitching. The Dodgers have been emphasizing defense since Friedman got to town, and are also looking for right-handed power, which Baez certainly has. De Leon is much more valuable to the Cubs than the Dodgers, and swapping Baez is probably the best way for Chicago to get the young arm they need.
The fact that they’re potential playoff foes probably makes a deal unlikely, but if the two sides can get over that hurdle, a Baez for De Leon (and stuff) deal makes more sense than anything else out there.
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
How about the Reds with DatDudeBP blocking Peraza/Herrera? Oh right…..
This would maybe work if Phillips were not old and a below-average starting second baseman. .
Well they went with Utley, so they obviously aren’t ruling out players for those reasons.
The Rays should be able to create a league average or better 2B out of Tim Beckham/Nick Franklin/Daniel Robertson/Brad Miller/Matt Duffy/Willy Adames. That might be a small step backward from Forsythe, but it would free up $15M.
I think Dozier has something like $40-50M in surplus value and I’d put Forsythe around half that amount. I’d like to see the Dodgers move Yusniel Diaz and Brock Stewart for Forsythe, and I’d hope the Rays would think that enough. Under the presumption that the Dodgers have already paid the signing bonus on Diaz he becomes a medium upside/no risk acquisition that doesn’t need to be on the 40 man, a roster that is particularly clogged for the Rays. Stewart gives the team another backend arm that could see time as a multi-inning reliever, spot starter, longman, or used in higher leverage if they deem him capable. The best part is that his two remaining options mean that the team can send him up and down unlike virtually all of their current relief options.
I have no idea if the Dodgers deem this too much, but if you’re not willing to move your best prospects for a fairly good player on a good deal, and you’re not willing to move your medium prospects for a slightly lesser player on the same deal, then what are you going to do to improve the team?
In Friedman We Trust.
Love the idea of Baez for DeLeon+. Would Friedman and Epstein have the guts to pull it off? If any two front offices would pull the trigger and make it happen, because it logically makes sense, I would think those two would. Maybe Kike Hernandez as the second piece?
As a Cubs fan, maybe Urias, but I kinda like the idea of watching Baez and Russell partner up for the next decade or so. (although the offense concerns me)
Too bad for you neither Baez or Russel have more then half a decade of control remaining.
That’s the issue you find with his statement?
I take it, that’s a bit rich? Didn’t think it was that out of line… They turned down Baez for Pomeranz last summer, and Espinoza is better prospect than DeLeon.
Urias was 36th on Dave’s trade value list this year, Baez wasn’t on it, and that was before Urias finished the year strong in the MLB rotation. He has the team’s 3rd-best pitcher WAR projection. In other words, The Cubs would have to throw in something besides Baez to get Urias.
Yeah, like Kris Bryant. There’s just no way the Dodgers move Urias anytime soon.
I’d take De Leon over Espinoza any day of the week, even with the injury concerns. You need to remember that, despite his ceiling, Espinoza is VERY far from the majors. And he’s a pitcher. He has a lot of development and a lot of mileage to pile on that 19 year old arm before he’s ready. And remember, he still ran a 4+ ERA in single-A this year. And he’s a pitcher.
Proximity to the majors is always the most heavily weighted term in the “how valuable is this pitching prospect” equation. It’s not the only term, but it’s the most weighted one.
Alright, I was wrong… but -51 wrong? That’s a bit of a strong reaction. I wasn’t trying to make an ass clown statement…
You caused a stampede I guess lol.
Are you making Kris Bryant available?
What about the Rockies? Trading within the division has the same caveat at the Cubs above, but other than that, they seem like a good fit.
LeMahieu still has a few years of team control and hits well from the right side. He doesn’t have the power, but his wRC+ was only 4 points behind Dozier last year. And adding another young starter in De Leon is exactly what the Rockies need, now and forever. Plus, they could slide Ian Desmond into 2B to fill his spot and extract some actual value from him, and then sign a real first baseman!
The possibility of making the Desmond signing look marginally better would probably be enough to keep the Rockies away from this deal though…
“The possibility of making the Desmond signing look marginally better would probably be enough to keep the Rockies away from this deal though…”
Well played sir
What ive been suggesting since the desmond signing. They also have brendan rodgers to fill in eventually. I think it’s the inter division thing that will be the reason it won’t happen.
De Leon would be an absolute home run machine at Coors Field.
What do your front office sources actually say about ‘not trading with REAL! competitors’ (share same division/city/super-high-projections)? Do they cite political stuff (‘the local press will kill us’ ‘what if HE! then beats us in the playoffs’)? Is it something only whispered about (‘of COURSE we’d trade with anybody coughcoughcough’)? Just overcompetitiveness (the odds of any 2 teams meeting in the post-season have to be well under 50%)? From a ‘just win, baby!’ standpoint, it just makes no sense, so I’m real curious as to what the front office people you know actually say about it.
As nice as it is to get ‘thumbed up’ here, I was actually hoping for a real answer from Dave. Or any of the Fangraphs people who talk to actual front office people. What do the decisionmakers themselves say about (avoiding) such trades?
I don’t ever talk to front office people, but I see two separate considerations here.
Not making big trades with teams in the same city or division is primarily about the business side of PR, marketing, and keeping the fan base happy to buy tickets. The White Sox reportedly told the Cubs categorically that they wouldn’t trade them Sale – http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/White-Sox-Have-Message-for-Cubs-Regarding-Sale-Trade-403602336.html . That sort of decision has the feel of coming from ownership (or team business leadership) for marketing reasons. It’s tough enough to sell tickets through a rebuild without a constant reminder that a player is thriving across town or with a division rival. And notice that’s the way these tend to be reported: it’s the team sending away the star that won’t trade. The team offering the package of prospects to get a an established star would be happy to deal with a crosstown team or division rival.
I suspect that deals like a Cubs-Dodgers trade are rare for a different reason. These deals rarely happen because contenders place a similar “temporal value” on wins. A lot of baseball trades boil down to a “current wins vs. future wins” trade-off, especially when impact players are involved. Both the Cubs and Dodgers logically place a high value on any player who will contribute wins over the next 1-2 seasons, so they’re not a natural fit for this type of trade. It probably also doesn’t help when both contenders are high revenue teams, as in this case, and therefore also view payroll commitments similarly. And precious few baseball players are truly unique assets on the trade market. Maybe the two contenders can fashion a logical trade that would improve both teams, but they can still usually get “more for their money” elsewhere by trading with a non-contender that will be more excited about prospects who aren’t yet ready in 2017 or that has more incentive to cut payroll because it doesn’t place much value on 1 or 2 incremental 2017 wins.
Thank you for your thoughts, Dave T. And they certainly sound sound. But I’d still like to know what actual team management people have to say about it, understanding it’d be off the record. And plenty of Fangraphs people do talk to front office people.
Ian Happ for De Leon is more plausible if still unlikely. Baez won’t be making a permanent trip out west. Urias won’t be heading east.
reunion with Dee Gordon via trade? or maybe a Ryan Schimpf or Cory Spangenberg from the Padres…
If the Rangers truly believe in Profar, perhaps it would make sense to trade Odor instead – who has reportedly already turned down extension offers. That obviously would make LAD’s left handedness issue bigger, but just a thought. Maybe include A. Gonzalez (thinking his value is pretty neutral if not negative) and make it a big package of prospects.
Really thought Forsythe for Barnes plus other prospects might’ve made some sense earlier in the winter since the Rays have been trying to upgrade behind the plate like forever. Obviously that “plus others” would have to be pretty enticing bc Barnes has pretty much stalled in LA and Forsythe has plenty of value. But the Dodgers system is still pretty deep.
Barnes hasn’t gotten a shot yet, and he is supposed to get it this year, so he hasn’t “stalled.”
Caesar Hernandez to the Dodgers, Javier Baez to the Phillies, Hector Neris to the Cubs along with Jose De leon.
I can type while dreaming.
Caesar = King
Caesar Hernandez = King Hernandez = Felix Hernandez
So what do the Mariners get back for trading Felix Hernandez to the Dodgers?
Joe the Lion? (Spanish isn’t one of my strong points – Serb)
Assuming that 35 year old Zobrist remains an everyday 2B for the next 3 years seems a bit optimistic.
I don’t think he’s even the starting baseman this year… he and Baez are in a time share… I see Baez, Zobrist, and Schwarber getting about 500 PA each, with Bryant still moving around and Jay and Almora and possibly Heyward rotating in CF. I think Rizzo & Russell are the only guys set in stone at their positions, although Contreras probably won’t see much time in LF this year.
The defending champs are probably more likely to trade their starting second baseman, cleanup hitter, and World Series MVP than they are to trade Javier Baez.
Zobrist is owed $44M over the next three years. How much is he likely to bring back in a trade?
Zobrist’s trade value is pretty much an academic question, because he has a full no-trade clause for the first 3 years of his 4 year contract.
The longer it drags out, the greater the Dodgers benefit. They don’t need an upgrade at 2B until the playoffs and don’t have many competitors chasing the position. Come trade deadline time, the Twins/Rays will have their last chance to get significant value for Dozier/Forsythe. In the short-term, it might be worth taking a small gamble on Stephen Drew to pair with Hernandez/Taylor.
It’s never worth taking a gamble with Stephen Drew. Just say no.
Market demand can change a lot in a half season. Only need one injury to bring competition for either of these players. The Twins and Rays are not risking much by waiting (one high-floor prospect with a questionable durability).On the other hand, the Dodgers have invested a lot of money to be a contender. I can’t see why the Dodgers would settle for less at 2B over a second prospect ranked 6-10.
It reflects badly on the Dodgers that they don’t have an internal solution to this problem at second base. They should’ve planned better.
Who would have thought that their strategy of cornering the market on Cuban second basemen a few years back would have come up 100% empty?
Willie Calhoun is a guy.
I was a little puzzled when the Dodgers traded Kendrick. He had one year left on a 2/$20 million deal. I figured if they pulled a deal for another 2B they would keep Kendrick in the fold until a deal was done. At $10 mil he’s a little overpaid for his current skill set, but he was an in house solution for a year who is a capable defender at three other positions besides 2B. LA looks a little silly right now moving him for organizational depth.
What about Jonathan Villar? De Leon for Villar could work.
At this point, I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Dodgers turn to Utley again. The man put up a solid 2 WAR for them, and the Dodgers seemed to favor him over the perennially solid Howie Kendrick from the start of the year. They could look to milk one more year out of him to buy time to find a longer term answer.
I hadn’t even thought of this before writing this post, but the team’s current hole at second base calls into question the wisdom of trading Howie Kendrick so early this offseason. If I remember correctly, Kendrick did request a trade, but I also feel like (based on nothing more than my inference) if the Dodgers had assured him he would be their starting second baseman, he would have been happy to stay. While he had a bit of a down year last year, he has a long history of being an above average regular and it’s not hard to envision him rebounding if given regular ABs. Certainly would have given the Dodgers a higher floor than their current crew does.
I think they consider both Kendrick and Utley guys who are not good enough to be starters at this point. I think they still fully expect to get someone better than either one. There has been talk of resigning Utley for a backup role in addition to that.
As a Cubs fan, De Leon is my dream acquisition. I wonder if there’s a way that the Cubs could become the middleman in a Dozier trade? Perhaps a larger package of prospects from the Cubs would entice the Twins more than De Leon alone, enabling Dozier to the Dodgers while getting the Cubs De Leon without losing Baez.
First, as we learned with the Schwarber injury last year, depth is important. Besides, I’ve already done the math. With everyone healthy, there is a very plausible way to get 145 starts to the following eight: Bryant, Rizzo, Schwarber, Russell, Zobrist, Contreras, Baez, and Heyward.
Contreras becomes the primary catcher and maybe makes a handful of starts in LF. Heyward gets maybe 25 starts in CF. Zobrist and Bryant get starts in the OF and 1B. And Baez will be the SS in the 15-20 games that Russell sits. And all 10 AL road games, Schwarbs is your DH.
is it really still “flexibility” if Joe has to stick to a fixed positional rotation with tight quotas?
I agreed with you that “Forsythe isn’t good enough to extract Jose De Leon” but I guess we were wrong. Great get for the Rays, good win now move for the Dodgers.
“I could potentially see a Forsythe deal working if the Dodgers were floating some pieces that could help Tampa Bay maintain the status quo and give them some long-term value, but Forsythe isn’t good enough to extract Jose De Leon…”
Looks like the Dodgers got desperate enough to make it happen. Probably they didn’t want to see De Leon on a rival NL playoff roster either. I appreciate the way this article laid out the possibilities!