Let’s Talk About That Weird Sonny Gray Trade Rumor
After the worst year of his career, including spending time on the DL with shoulder issues, Sonny Gray looks healthy again, posting his best fielding-independent numbers since his rookie year. And with the A’s looking like sellers, Gray is expected to get moved in the next month or so. And according to Susan Slusser, it might be sooner than that, with the Astros reportedly the most aggressive buyer at the moment.
Sonny Gray, who will start Tuesday against the Astros, probably will be dealt in the next six weeks and one of the more realistic landing spots for the A’s ace is….Houston.
Industry sources have mentioned the Astros in connection with Gray for weeks, there is zero doubting Houston’s interest, and the A’s front office has had no qualms dealing within the division. Especially with Houston, a frequent trade partner, including two years ago at the deadline when Oakland sent Scott Kazmir to the Astros. Astros general manager Jeff Luhnow just so happens to be in town for this series.
All that makes sense. The Astros have been looking for a rotation upgrade, especially a controllable guy that they can use to extend their window for the next several years. The Astros also have plenty of pieces to spare, so they’re an attractive trade partner for Oakland, especially since they don’t care about the in-division aspect of things. So that all makes sense.
But then, there’s the last line of Slusser’s piece.
However, there are numerous other clubs with interest, including one National League team that even has toyed with the idea of using Gray as a closer.
Wait, what?
Sonny Gray appeared in relief in the first two outings of his career, back in July of 2013, pitching the sixth and seventh inning in both of those outings. When he re-joined the team in August, he was inserted into the rotation, and has been a starter ever since. So why would a team trade for a high-quality starter who has never pitched high-leverage relief innings and convert him to a new role in the middle of a pennant race? That would be weird.
But, there are some potential scenarios where it could maybe sort of make some sense, kinda.
1. You don’t like any of the closers on the market. David Robertson is the most available closer out there, and is having a strong bounce back year after last year’s relative struggles, but he’s a 32-year-old who throws a lot of breaking balls and has developed a little bit of a home run problem in recent years, plus is due about $20 million through the end of the 2018 season. Jim Johnson is 34 and was terrible the last time the Braves traded him to a contender. If you’re not a fan of either of those two options, you may be inclined to explore non-traditional ways of finding a closer.
2. You think the price on starters and relievers has gotten too similar. Last year, the Cubs paid through the nose to rent Aroldis Chapman for the second half of the year, while the Indians also gave up a significant package to get Andrew Miller. If the teams selling relievers are pegging their prices to those two deals, perhaps a contender could see more value in acquiring a starter instead, using them in relief for the rest of this season and then having a controllable starter for years beyond 2017.
3. You want a multi-inning closer, not a one-inning guy, and think Gray could easily adopt to pitching the last few innings of tight games. If you’re confident in your postseason rotation, but want an Andrew Miller type reliever for October, perhaps Gray is a better bet to fill that role in the postseason than any of the available relievers.
Now, I don’t know that those scenarios actually exist in MLB right now, but we’re not privy to the asking prices for Robertson/Johnson, or even the non-closers like Brad Hand or Justin Wilson. It’s possible that a team exploring the reliever market in June could have gotten the impression that scenario #2 could be true, and is just kicking the tires on Gray to make sure they have their bases covered in case they want to zig when the market is zagging.
Which which NL team would really do this? In reality, there are only five clear buyers in the NL: the Dodgers, Cubs, Nationals, Rockies, and Diamondbacks. It wouldn’t make sense for one of the bubble teams like St. Louis or New York to try this, and if the Brewers were going to acquire Sonny Gray, it would be to displace one of their starters, not Corey Knebel. So it would have to be one of the five teams listed above.
We can probably rule out the Cubs. With Wade Davis, they’re pretty set in the ninth inning, and they have a clear need for another starting pitcher, so there is no reason for them to trade for Gray and then use him to fortify the bullpen instead of the rotation.
We can probably rule out the Rockies. Greg Holland is one of the main reasons they’ve been winning this year, and it’s hard to imagine that they’d acquire Gray to create a bullpen controversy when their bullpen has already been excellent.
For similar reasons, you’d think we could rule out the Dodgers, who have Kenley Jansen shutting the door in the ninth inning. But the Dodgers are also the team who does enough unusual things to try and get an edge that I wouldn’t entirely rule them out, and they could see Gray as a way to stabilize the relief corps in front of Jansen. That wouldn’t match up with Slusser reporting that the team wanted to use him as their closer, but maybe in this instance, closer was just short-hand for high leverage reliever? I don’t know. This feels like a stretch.
That leaves the Nationals and Diamondbacks. The Nationals are the easy guess, since they have the most glaring need for a closer in baseball, but Dusty Baker has made it pretty clear that he wants an established ninth-inning guy, a “proven closer”. While the Nationals front office might be inclined to try something unusual with Gray in the ninth inning, I don’t know that Baker would be all that on board with converting a starter to reliever mid-season and handing him the ninth inning for the first time in his life, and he almost certainly wouldn’t use Gray in the multi-inning role. I think the Nationals are more likely to acquire a traditional reliever and use him like a traditional reliever.
By process of elimination, that would leave the Diamondbacks. It’s pretty rational to not trust Fernando Rodney, despite the fact that he already has 20 saves. While Archie Bradley has been excellent in relief work this year, they might prefer to keep his multi-inning flexibility for earlier in the game. With Zack Godley stabilizing the back of the rotation, they could theoretically believe that Gray would help them more in October as a multi-inning closer than as a starter who might only throw once in a five game series.
So if anyone is kicking this idea around, I’m betting it’s Arizona. But in the end, I still think the idea is too weird to actually come to fruition. If the Astros are serious about acquiring Gray to upgrade their rotation, I have a hard time seeing a team like the Diamondbacks outbidding them to experiment with Gray in relief. While the value gap between starters and relievers is shrinking, I don’t think we’re yet at the point where it would make sense for a team to pay the deadline premium for a quality starter, and then ask him to do something he’s never really done before in his career in the midst of a playoff push.
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
I bet it’s the Cubs- the rest of their bullpen is very shaky and they only have Davis for this year.
But the rest of their bullpen isn’t all that shaky. Uehara and Edwards have been unhittable, and Strop, Duensing, and Montgomery have all been solid. Even with the horrible HR/FB rates from Rondon and Grimm, which have to regress at some point, the Cubs have still had one of the top 5 bullpens in the NL.
Strop pitching in the clutch…..ewwww. He reminds me of Farnsworth. Nasty stuff but awful when it counts. Also Monty is now the rotation, and hopefully stay there even after Hendricks returns from the DL.
Russell and Billy McKinney to the A’s, Gray and another pitcher coming back.
Billy McKinney is Yankees property. Tough for the Cubs to make that trade.
Nice of the Yankees to give us McKinney back for nothing. Now that Gleyber is out for the year maybe Cashman can return him to us too.
lol. good one, even if McKinney is gone.
The cubs jumped to mind for me, too. Not that I agree with it, but I could see the needs lining up just enough for it to be plausible.
Maddon is clearly willing to push his top bullpen guys in the playoffs, so the idea of acquiring a multi-inning guy fits there. He has also shown he might bury certain relievers in his bullpen in the playoffs if he loses trust – maybe he does not want to use Rondon or Strop in the playoffs like last year and so they’re thinking they need to add some guys?
Maddon and the front office there are pretty progressive about trying new things.
And Lackey and Arrieta are free agents so there would be a natural rotation fit after this season.
I’d still just use the freakin guy in the rotation, but that seems to line up a little.
Agreed. If the Cubs are getting Gray, they are sticking him in the rotation which is the team’s biggest need.
Montgomery, Uehara, and Edwards are outstanding. By “rest of their bullpen”, do you mean 2 guys?
“It wouldn’t make sense for one of the bubble teams like St. Louis or New York to try this.”
Actually, it would make a lot of sense for St. Louis to try this (and soon), even if they’re ultimately sellers at the deadline. The Cards’ bullpen is a disaster, and Gray would provide much-needed stability, whether it’s closing or bridging the gap to Rosenthal and Oh, or some combination of the two assuming they trade Oh in a few weeks. He’s also controllable for three more years and could return to the rotation at any point.
Might be better to try Wacha in the pen before giving up the farm for Gray (assuming Luke Weaver is healthy and takes Wacha’s spot)
It doesn’t make sense because of the acquisition cost vs return for a bubble team vs a for sure(as much as that can be a thing in baseball) team. If the cardinals outbid the astros this season to try gray out as a closer and then fail to make the playoffs they are losing the front end playoff value. Adding the player’s talents might make sense, but beating the market to acquire him when you aren’t in the best position to use his value isn’t an efficient use of assets.
Or this is simply posturing in negotiations for an actual relief pitcher, since the market for those has gone crazy: “lower your price or we’ll go get a cheaper starter and just make him a closer”.
I don’t think anyone is stupid enough to believe that David Robertson or Kelvin Herrera will get traded for more than Sonny Gray.
If you take what Chapman and/or Miller were traded for last year, and subtracted 25% because of the difference in value between them and Robertson or Herrera (arguable in some cases, since even though Chapman is clearly better than Herrera, Chapman was a rental), you still probably end up with a package that the A’s take for Gray in a heartbeat.
This is still a guy who was cruddy and injured last year, and has been inconsistent this year, and whom the As are probably excited to trade away while he’s suddenly rebuilt some value and before he gets even more expensive in arbitration this offseason. We’re not talking Yu Darvish here.
As noted above, the market for relievers has turned a little nutty. To make a more general point than I did before, often when you see a trade rumor get floated in the press that seems a little nutty (recent examples: Richard Sherman getting traded in the offseason, today’s Porzingis rumors), there’s another reason behind it other than ‘this is what a team is actually trying to do’.
Unless there’s a surprise or he starts struggling, Gray will probably be the best starting pitcher on the trade block. Other pitchers who have been traded with multiple years of control as a top starting pitcher at the deadline are guys like Cole Hamels and Jeff Samardzija and they each got a real haul, on the same level as the trades for Chapman/Miller (David Price was considered better than all those guys). Gray is going to get a haul.
It has to be the Nationals. I think it’s been a solid year or even two since Rizzo and Bean have traded but they’ve been partners very often in the past, and the Nats need for a closer is so strong they’ve already begun converting SP prospects to relief. I could easily see the Nats trading for Gray to put him in the bullpen if only because the need is so strong.
But then why wouldn’t they just trade for a pitcher who is cheaper and is actually a reliever?
Because they want Gray for next year as a starter. And he costs less than Robertson in salary and they have some kind of weird cash issue (richest owner but worst TV deal = weird).
“Rizzo and Bean…but they’ve been partners very often in the past…”
Rizzo’s wife might have something to say about this…
They could also trade for Gray, keep him in the rotation, and put Joe I-can’t-get-LHB-out-if-you-spot-me-two-strikes Ross in the bullpen where he belongs.
Agree, I think the A’s take a couple prospects and Treinen to stretch out and flip in the offseason or next deadline if they can’t extend on the cheap. Good buy-low candidate.
Arizona might not be able to put together a competitive offer for Gray. Their top prospect is Anthony Banda, who was rankled #88 overall by Fangraphs in March. That kind of prospect rarely headlines a mid-summer deal for a pitcher with an ace reputation. Unless Arizona chips in some young talent off its MLB roster (Robbie Ray? Brandon Drury? Chris Owings?), I can’t see them getting Gray.
lol, Robbie Ray? He is worth way more than Sonny Gray is at this point. Not only does Robbie Ray have an extra year of team control, he’s also significantly better than Sonny Gray at this point.
Gray only has two years of control left, has an injury concern, and he’s not an “ace”. He’s pitched more like a #2/#3 that has benefited from a low career BABIP.
I’m not saying AZ should or will trade for Gray, but the cost of Gray isn’t nearly what you’re making it out to be.
You’re missing my point. I listed Ray as an example of a player who would be too valuable for AZ to trade for Gray. They don’t have any MiLB players who are valuable enough to get Gray and they don’t have any MLB players who are in the right value range to trade for Gray either.
This is exactly right. The D-Backs are never going to win a bidding war for Gray, unless some team is convinced Ketel Marte is going to be a star. Brandon Drury is a good 2nd baseman, but unless someone thinks he has untapped upside he doesn’t seem like an attractive piece either.
Until proven otherwise, I will continue to assume that any vague “National League team X is considering trading for Y player to alleviate their reliever problem” is about the Nationals.
I don’t see Gray being all that excited about this. Yes, some of the very best relievers have gotten big free agent deals, but he seemingly has a floor of middling starter, and those guys get as much as the very best closers. Mike Melancon got $62 million; Ian Kennedy got $70 million.
Agree. He also still has two more years of arbitration, which favors SPs over closers.
I really like points 2 and 3. I feel like because the asking price for relievers has been very steep, why not invest the same resources in a proven starter who could potentially also be an effective late reliever?
I would bet my Nationals are in on Gray-as-closer. Nats have a long & productive history of doing business with Oakland, and desperately need something resembling a bullpen, but then the point about Dusty Baker not being on board with a pretty radical solution is a really good one. Interesting idea, tho.
Wouldn’t it make more sense to acquire multiple bad starters and try to turn them into closers if you were going to do that? Ubaldo Jimenez is probably ~40% as likely to make a good closer as Gray is, and he should be free. There are other guys like that as well.
I could see that making sense given his problems in the last years but the A’s are a team that desperately tries to get starter value out of every guy since they can’t buy starters on the market. So I guess they keep him or hope someone pays starter value for him even though it might not work out in the end.
I mean if he gets sold as a closer they get a top100 and a good non ranked prospect (150 range or so) and that doesn’t help their rebuild that much.of course that is a very valuable package but realistically a top50 guy has grays performance as a ceiling (median outcome is probably lower) and the second guy is a bench player and then they are were they be before they traded him, still a high 70s win team in a good year.
Imo they hope he has a better year next season. That could bomb if he gets hurt again and they get nothing but with their limited resources and his favorable contract that is a risk they need to take, they need to get a big package with 2-3 top100 guys to really take a step forward.
If you want a long closer, why trade for Gray and convert him? Take your 3 or 4 guy, replace him with Gray, then that guy (the 3 or 4) becomes the long guy. Put Roark or Ross in that role and have a rotation of Scherzer/Strasburg/Gonzalez/Gray.