LINK: Ryan Spilborghs Talks PEDs
There are a lot of opinions about the use of performance enhancing drugs in Major League Baseball. The BioGenesis reports have put those opinions back front and center, and if you want sensationalized outrage, you don’t have to look very far to find it. That’s why I’m linking to this piece in the Denver Post by former Rockies outfielder Ryan Spilborghs.
In the piece, Spilborghs explains his views on why PED usage occurs, offers some suggestions on what he thinks might be done to help offset the perceived need for chemical assistance, and even ponders whether the league should just legalize and regulate steroid usage themselves in order to level the playing field. I’m not going to say I agree with everything he writes, but they’re thoughts worth reading, especially if you spend time reading this instead of some revisionist history about how this generation is ruining the history of a pure game.
My personal struggle is that I never took any PEDs, that I’m now hanging onto my career at 33 years old in a foreign country and wonder, “What if I had, what would be different?”
I had several factors for not wanting to take any PED’S to begin with:
1. I’m terrified of needles, (ask anyone who has ever taken my blood or my wife, she will run me over with the best of them).
2. I have always believed I was a better player than everyone else, and I like to work.
3. I had never suffered any major injury (Never a sense of despair of career coming short due to injury).
4. I always assumed I would make enough money to be happy, never a goal to be rich, simply a byproduct (still absolutely true even with a family).
5. I always wanted at the end of the day to be able to look myself and my family in the eye and say, “I did it right”.Those were the factors stopping me, but those factors haven’t stopped other guys, and when I say “that I wonder what if,” I say it because in my MLB career, I had a “comp” (in the MLB arbitration process players are compared against each other in similar age, position, and stats to help determine salary, so a comp is your comparable) that has gone to have a very productive and financially rewarding career. I know I may not have been as good as this player from the beginning, but regardless, some of his decisions have helped to make him a better player, and you can’t argue that taking PEDs doesn’t help a player when there is no way to figure out if he didn’t take it if his career would be the same, and or vice versa. Maybe if I took something it would have made me a better player, maybe I would have gotten more contracts, and maybe I’d be still playing in the big leagues right now. Or maybe I’m embarrassing my family and my name having myself involved in a scandal.
Luckily I don’t know that answer, and I never want to find out. I choose my path and will take it to the bitter end, but I always ask this question to my friends within baseball, “at what cost are you willing to make you and your family rich?”
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
RYAN SPIELBERG IS ON PEDS??!!?
Guys, I think he meant this jokingly…
Actually pretty insightful stuff.
I feel for Spilborghs, and I’m glad he talked about his experience. His rationales for _not_ using are right on, and I respect that he held to those and kept his self-respect. And yet, as we see, other guys passed him by, including others with fewer scruples, to the point where he may have gotten a few less opportunities to play than others. Keeping your self-respect sometimes means giving up something that a person would really like to have; it’s not an easy choice . . . .
To me, Spilborghs is what sport, and hence what baseball, is really about: you do the best you legitimately can at what you love, and try not to let the money and the ego-distortion eat you up. It’s a game, and you play it right within the rules as they are set out. I don’t care what his career numbers are, I respect Ryan Spilborghs as a winner because he chose to play honest sport. I couldn’t care less about the numbers of juiced Bulk Bogan’s whose ‘sport’ involves the equivalent of fixed professional ‘wrestling’ and carpetbags full of cash; I change the channel whenever I see their faces.
Great stuff, thanks.
PED’s are so prevent because they work. Nelson Cruz was always referred to as a “AAAA” guy until about 2008. He experienced a drastic spike in his minor league numbers and became a 5 Win player. Who knows how good Ryan Braun would be without them. I personally think he took them in college too.
I’m glad you “personally think he took them in college.” Even if you are acknowledging it isn’t a fact, do you have ANY reason to believe this?
Obviously its not fair to assume a player took PEDs just because he started playing better but you can’t blame people for thinking this way. Blame the league for allowing it to go on for so long without doing anything.
Bartolo Colon took PEDs in 2012 and (given that he is subject to extra drug testing now and isn’t as stupid as Manny Ramirez) presumably isn’t taking PEDs in 2013. However, he’s pitching slightly better so far this year.
My point is that it is hard to know to what extent PEDs work by reasoning from anecdotal evidence. We don’t have the data we need to make good estimates regarding to what extent PEDs work.
Colon would irrelevant like when he went to Chicago and Boston if it weren’t for his rampant PED use and stem cells that rejuvinated his career. It sure wasn’t the hard work and dedication to get back in shape.
Very insightful comment.
But where’s the smoking gun!
Alas; here’s a picture of Ryan Braun storming the field in 2004 wearing San Francisco #20, seen here chest bumping Bonds after a home run, presumably not long after the two had, maybe, engaged in a romantic date culminating in,
maybedefinitelyprobably, the injection of HGH into each others’ buttocks:http://imgur.com/zo82WLs
That’s all the evidence I need
He took them in utero! BURN THE WITCH!!!!1
Wonder who the comp is that he’s speaking about.
I wonder too… In his baseball reference page:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/spilbry01.shtml
his #4 of his age 28 most similar is Michael Morse….
Comps in this situation are not baseball-ref player comps, but rather similar players used in arbitration cases to find the appropriate salary for a player. Mr. Spilborghs was eligible for arbitration after the 2009 season, at which point Mr. Morse had not yet ever gone through the process, meaning he would not be the comp. The comp player would be a player with similar stats, age, position who went through the arbitration process / avoided arb in a recent year like 2007 – 2008 in this case.
From what I understand, the arbitration comps are pretty unscientific, with a focus on BA and counting stats at the expense of defense and underlying performance indicators (e.g. BABIP) except in extreme circumstances. So the comp would probably be someone like David DeJesus.
Exactly. Very unscientific. Like wins and losses still get used for pitchers… I just wanted to be sure players’ names like Michael Morse don’t get thrown around for the wrong reasons in something like this.
Thanks leeroy
I was thinking Jose Bautista as the comp, but then I saw that Ryan S. was a much better hitter as a 27 and 28-year-old than Bautista was at the same age. Hmph.
When I read that and looked at his numbers I thought of Melky.
I thought the exact same thing
Melky would be my guess.
I think this new round is more complicated then any so far, because of the playoff implications involved. As an A’s fan I am not super worried about this, since Colon presumably already served his suspension he would be fine if this is related too the same incident. Also with Anderson returning soon Gray’s call-up, and the overall depth of the organization they will be fine.
I think the implications of the suspensions on the playoff race, and the decision by MLB too move forward with this now, make this much more punitive too the teams, then this is supposed too be. Some teams could lose players that they don’t have internal replacements for. This scenario then either costs the team production, or it causes them to spend talent to acquire a replacement. I think the nature of suspending this many players all at once will adversely affect playoff races in far too meaningful of a way, without the teams being involved in the infraction.
I believe that if the effect of the suspensions is too punish the player for breaking the rules, that it would be a lot fairer too the team’s if these suspensions stacked, and were served at the beginning of the following season. The player could lose service time value for the remainder of the season. This would allow the teams too plan in the offseason around the suspension.
I think dropping the suspensions when they are adds too much luck, based on who is involved from which teams, too a playoff scenario, in an adverse way too the league. This season is very interesting right now, and very exiting, I would hate too see that crumble because of this happening when it is.
I’ll be honest, I’m ok with teams taking the hit here because it incentivizes GMs to avoid steroid guys. Not an easy task (knowing who is using) I’m sure and not really a totally fair one either, but still, it encourages teams to want a clean game too.
As I said, from my own perspective I am not that worried. I think that if the player lost; service time for the remainder of the season (after appeal failure), earnings for the remainder of the season, Arb. consideration for stats from the remainder, and all of the above during the suspension, then it would do more then anything else to make this fair too teams, and making the financial ramifications for being caught much higher. I think that Spill had it right. The bottom line is money, and the worse the financial ramifications, less players will feel it’s worth the risk.
Heh, from the title, it sounds like Ryan Spilborghs was on PEDs. And I was gonna be like “chalk one up to the ‘they don’t necessarily help’ column.”
Jason Grimsley made that case rather well.
Mitchell Report name Nook Logan had a career SLG of .346, including 2 HRs in 957 PAs, and a wRC+ of 75.
.078 ISO. Take that Joey Gathright!
They probably worked great for Jason Grimsley.
His major league carer spanned from 1989-2006, missing 1997 and 1998 in the minors and with a shoulder injury. He started using in the minors in 1998.
He made it back to the majors in 1999. His salaries for the year 2002 through 2006 were 7.7 million. He may have had to give up 800k of that in his last year (not sure how that played out. Per wiki he made 1 million pre drug use, 9 million post.
His xfip from 2002-2006 was 4.08. He ranked 85th out of 252 qualified relievers in WAR in that time.
From 1999 to 2006 he ranked 81st of 368 qualified relievers in war.
He pitched for world series champions and earned full shares in playoff money for 1999 and 2000, his first 2 years back after starting drug use in 1998. His era, admittedly a poor measure, was a full run lower post drug use. He was nearly 39 when he asked for his release.
I bet Jason Grimsley is glad he did them and I bet they helped him. A lot.
Actually not sure he started in 1998. He reportedly admitted to an IRS agent (per the agent’s affidavit) to having used PEDs in the minors in 1998. Doesn’t say that’s when he started.
Not much that’s insightful in there, just one player’s perspective. Who doesn’t have a medical background, nor anything in sports history overall. (could any season be shorter than ‘track and field’, in which ‘roids were rampant?) No reason to like it other than ‘it agrees with me’. Ok, granted it’s the King of Reasons.
I can’t disagree more. I tried and it hurt.
So by your criteria in order for a professional ball player to present an insightful opinion he either needs to possess medical expertise or be very well-versed in sports history, particularly PED usage. Who ya got in mind?
Doc Medich. Or that guy Burt Lancaster played in Field of Dreams.
this is outstanding
I’m pretty smart and well spoken.
As long as it’s “not about the past.”
Is it a SABER union rule that you have to be dovish on steroids? Only guy I can think of who ever took the ‘BOO!’ side of the steroid issue was Will Carroll, and given his specialized milieu I’m not entirely sure he even counts. Do they ostracize you at the banquets if you say “steroid users deserved punishment”?
(A) Help me understand anywhere in Dave’s comments that stated or even implied that steroid users didn’t merit some punishment?
(B) Regardless of what you think about point “A”, I think one of the main points of Spilborgh’s thoughtful response was that the decision to use is not as easy or clear-cut as Joe Sportsfan would like to believe. It’s really easy to sit back and say, “Steroids user = BAD! All my childhood heroes = good, perfect angels!” Life is rarely that black-and-white.
Not only do you need to be dovish, you have to buy into the notion that PEDs don’t even enhance performance. That all these PED users from the East German Women’s swim team to Ben Johnson to Marion Jones to Lance Armstrong have all been wasting their time and putting their own careers, reputations and health into jeopardy over placebos that have no actual effect. It’s part of the SABR Analyst’s Creed.
You have a great list of successes. How about failures? How about where steroids caused injuries or made someone’s technique irrepairably worse (like Barry Bonds on the Base paths)? These cases do exist, but not being omniscient, we cannot have such knowledge of those as we do of the aforementioned Bonds, Mcgwire, Johnson, GDR swim team, etc. For example, while steroids aid muscle growth, they don’t nessecarily help the right muscles to grow, or develop the right fast twitch fibres valuable in sports like Track, short swim distances, and Baseball.
Nice straw man argument. Who, amongst the SABRE community is advocating the use of PED’s? To be “dovish” would mean these writers/analysts would prefer to look the other way as players needle up. I haven’t heard one of these people trash the CBA for its provisions for testing against PED’s and meting out punishment for violations. There are some fans who are so obsessed with this issue that if all analysts don’t rush to soap boxes on the street and scream like crazy people upon hearing an initial accusation, then they’re accused as appeasers.
There are people who see this as a black and white issue. They’re the ones to quickly blast others as appeasers, doves, etc, for not condemning athletes upon accusation. And then there are people who understand this is about due process – which automatically casts it as gray. Innocent until proven guilty. Jury by peers. A day in court. And the right to appeal.
Thankyou sir.
This isn’t the US court system you know.
Thank you, Richie. And Maguro also.
The groupthink among Fangraphs staff may not be as toxic and absolute as that of Baseball Prospectus, where all 32 writers recently declared that they would put Bonds and Clemens in the HOF (seriously, it was unanimous), but it’s pretty bad here.
I don’t think putting Bonds and Clemens in the Hall would make them unanimous on steroids in general. They both had fabulous careers well before any steroid suspicions even came up.
I liked this perspective because he alludes to direct knowledge of PED usage and it’s affects. Not many players even admit to knowledge of other players using.
I like Spilborghs’ take on the money aspect. Focus on that, tie the punishments to finances, and things will get cleaner. Not 100% clean, but cleaner.
For instance, I would like to see every single MLB contract have a clause in it that allows a team to tear up a contract if a player tests positive for PEDs. If the suspension is 50 games, then teams have that 50-game window to decide whether to keep the player or release the player with no further financial commitment.
In short, I agree with Spilborghs’ assessment that the game needs significantly larger disincentives in place so that players are less and less tempted to cheat because the cons so severely outweigh the pros. Poorly worded, I fear, but you get the point.
I agree with the notion that we have to hit them in the wallets to make the punishment harsh enough that the only people who will consider are those who think they won’t get caught (which are still some). I have thought about things like being sentenced to three years of getting only 1/3 of your money from your contract. So if you were slated to make $15M, now you get $5M.
My one problem here (ok, I have a few I’ve thought of, but I don’t want to make this long, so please don’t assume I’m stupid) is what to do with left over money. If you just let the team keep it, you’re gonna have Ruben Amaro Jr. slipping Ageless Male into Ryan Howard’s Gatorade in the clubhouse to get out of paying him. Even if the money goes to revenue sharing, then Jefrey Loria would do it while the Phillies are in Miami (and unlike Amaro, I’m not really kidding here). We need somewhere for the money to go that no one would have incentive to frame someone. Am I just being paranoid, or does this really not sound that hard for someone to do if they were a jerk?
I always thought a guy like Doug Mientkiewicz cheated to hand onto a job.
I cheated to a hand once
Be careful not to read this sentence too quickly. I thought that Mr Baseball knew Mientkiewicz far too well.
I do wish that people understood PEDs and what they do. I am a lifelong user and I am proud to say it. I am physically better for it and it is highly unlikely that I will have adverse effects from a long term perspective. In other words, I understand PEDs on a level that most do not.
It is absurd that anyone expects professional athletes to not use. I truly can’t understand why every man from any walk of life doesn’t. It simply makes you better in every possible way…. I digress.
I can tell you first hand and second hand that a significant majority of college athletes use and a sizable minority of HS athletes use. I know fathers who buy them en masse for their sons and their teammates. Literally commonplace. What I am getting at is that PED use is rampant, will always be rampant and eventually I hope that everyone just accepts it as the norm.
You sure you’re taking PEDs and not MDMA?
Just kidding, and I don’t mean to belittle someone who is opening up on a public forum. You certainly would know more about it than I do. It’s just that some of the phrases you used seemed a tad euphoric. You can’t understand why every man from any walk of life doesn’t use PEDs? It simply makes you better in every possible way? Just thought I’d substitute MDMA in there for PEDs since it reminded me of the early ’80s.
It sure sounds like MDMA to me
You’re pathetic.
And all I did was place a bet.
One of those things that as time goes on they will just take it off the history books because it sounds so ridiculous.
Ya I think Spilborghs just stinks as a player. He probably used ped’s and just stunk. These guys who doth protest too much are usually the ones are are the most guilty…even if he didn’t juice I highly doubt they would have done much for him. I love how these guys whine and complain about how bad they were and then try to convince people they couldn’t compete without ped’s. What a joker this Spilborghs character is.
Did you even read the article? He never admitted to taking PEDs. He was just giving his own perspective as an average league player.
did you even read my comment?