Mariano Rivera and Age: Which Side Is Losing?

If you’re a baseball fan — and if you’re not, why are you reading this? — you’ve undoubtedly been bombarded these past few days with stories about Mariano Rivera. I swear, every time I log onto Twitter, I see another five articles taking a stab at answering the same question: Is Mo declining? He’s been hit around three times this week, allowing four runs in only 1.2 innings pitched, and he’s both blown a save and lost a game. Judging from the media attention these struggles have been given, it sounds as though Mo should just hang up his spikes now and call it quits.

But of course, that’s absolute rot. In the battle between Mo and age, it looks like even Father Time can’t catch up with his cutter.

For the past five seasons, people have been overreacting to every blown save by Mariano, assuming that, this time, his struggles are signs that age is finally catching up to him. But guess what? So far, he’s still as dominant as ever. His 2.40 ERA is slightly high for him, but there are still only five closers in the majors that have a lower ERA than him this season. His strikeouts are up from last year (7.8 K/9) while his walks are down (1.0 BB/9), and he’s still allowing home runs at a rate well below league average. His 2.81 SIERA is better than he produced last season, and suggests he’s going to be just fine going forward. He may not be quite as dominant as he was in his early 30s, but hey, who is? That doesn’t mean he isn’t still great.

I’d get tired of this yearly drama regarding Mo, except it actually serves an important function: it reminds us just how amazing Mariano is. At 589 saves — only 12 behind Trevor Hoffman’s record 601 saves — he has already locked up the title of Best Closer of All-Time, and he’s still going strong. But at 41 years old, is Mariano the best old closer in history as well?

Turns out, it’s debatable. Here’s the saves leaderboard for all pitchers 40 years old or older:

Remember, Mariano’s age-40 season was just last year, so these results are from less than two seasons of work. Hoffman pitched until he was 42 and Eckersley lasted until he was 43, and as Mo is showing little sign of slowing down, he will likely finish with more saves and a much better ERA+ than both of them.

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But Hoyt Wilhelm? He might be untouchable, even for the great Mariano. Wilhelm was a starter early in his career, but then switched to the bullpen as he got older in order to extend his career. He pitched until he was 49 years old and, up until he was 45, he regularly threw 90 innings or more a year. Like Mariano, he was a one-tricky pony, relying heavily on his knuckleball for his success.

When Mariano finally retires, my guess is the only category Wilhelm still outpaces him in his Innings Pitched. There are various theories on why Mo has struggled of late — the leading hypothesis is that it’s location related — but there are no signs right now that his struggles are anything more serious than a passing funk. All pitchers go through periods in time where their location isn’t as sharp as they’d like, so I’m firmly of the opinion that all Mo needs in order to straighten things out is time. He’ll come out of this just fine, and continue on his way toward being the most dominant closer — and old closer — the game has ever seen.

At what point will time finally catch up with Mo? How old does he have to get before entropy sucks him down like everyone else? I don’t know, but I’m hoping it’s never.





Piper was the editor-in-chief of DRaysBay and the keeper of the FanGraphs Library.

69 Comments
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TheGrandslamwichMember since 2020
15 years ago

Yep, it’s just the New York media over-reacting to a small sample size. I’m willing to bet that Rivera will still be Rivera before the season ends.

siggian
15 years ago

As Blue Jay fan, I agree, unfortunately.

ServiteLegend
15 years ago
Reply to  siggian

Ha ha..

The difference in the standings between the Blue Jays and the Yankees is greater than 10 games. Mariano doesn’t provide 10+ WAR for the Yankees, so even without him, the Blue Jays would still not be viable contenders for the AL East or AL Wild Card.

And the Blue Jays traded Marc Rzepczynski: he went to my high school!! But the team I hate the most is the Phiilles because of their treatment of Ben Francisco. Play him more!!

DavidB
15 years ago
Reply to  siggian

Servite,

Mo is a quality player on a stacked team in a stacked division. It would be more fun to be a blue jay fan if age caught up with him sooner or later. Don’t be an ass.

j6takish
15 years ago

What promoted you to explode on that guy and make fun of his team like that? You are the reason everyone hate Yankee fans

ServiteLegend
15 years ago
Reply to  j6takish

The point was that the Yankees were so talented that they would likely be ahead of the Blue Jays, even if Rivera was replaced by a mediocre middle-reliever. Rivera might be a reason why they are in a close race for the AL East with the Red Sox, but the Yankees will make the post-season without him.

ServiteLegend
15 years ago
Reply to  j6takish

Long Live Ben Francisco, Dan Klein, Marc Rzepczynski!!

JohnnyComeLately
15 years ago
Reply to  j6takish

Your point has nothing to do with either siggian’s comment or the article. Unlike your Marc Rzepczynski comment. Totally relevant. Thanks for that.

BenFrancisco's butt on the Phillies Bench
15 years ago
Reply to  j6takish

46 thumbs down? Wow, even that guy who made inane comments about non-baseball gambling in the A-Rod poker post had fewer thumbs down!

—

Long Live Servite!!!

BenFrancisco's butt on the Phillies Bench
15 years ago
Reply to  j6takish

Thanks guys for the 55 thumbs down!! 🙂

I’m proud of myself!

Mike
15 years ago

I think time will tell if he’s done or not. Rivera has done this several times, pitch ineffectively for a couple of games in a row, and then suddenly go on a hot streak where no one has touched him for about a month.

Joe Girardi said it best (And I don’t get to say that very often), if this happened for about a month, there would be a cause for concern.

I do think Mo will retire though after next year if he does indeed pitch ineffectively from here on out.

I would still take him in the 9th over almost any other closer.

The one minor concern though is that August and Sept/Oct are the months throughout Rivera’s career in which he is at his worst. And those worst numbers still today would be amongst some of the best in the game. And when I said October it’s referring to the regular season October games, not the postseason.

Again, I think we just have to wait and see. If he is un-Mo like for awhile (Meaning for the rest of the month or so), there’s a definite cause for concern.

Cliff Lee's Changeup
15 years ago
Reply to  Mike

Did you just say that Mo is at his worst in October? Because that is wrong, just so very wrong. What is perhaps most amazing about Mo is that when the game is taken to the next level, The Post Season, he demonstrably ups his game, he is a superior pitcher during the post season in a way that no other player has ever been able to achieve. Guys like Jeter and Bernie, who played in the post season almost every year, their post season states eventually got to about their regular season stats because of regression to the mean, for Rivera, this is not true. He does not regress, he dominates, against better teams, in higher pressure situations, and he will do it for longer (more 2 innings saves). I don’t want to bother with states here, but I will if you ask.

Richie
15 years ago

He clearly said he was referring to October regular season games, absolutely “not the postseason”. Before you rag on somebody, at least re-read the post that you’re ragging on.

Al
15 years ago

How does he take his game to another level in the postseason? Is it by magic? Or does he just not try very hard during the regular season?

Jordan
15 years ago

I dunno how he does it – could be luck I suppose, as his BABIP and HR/FB are below his career averages and his strand rate is above his career average. But Mo has a .71 ERA in 140 postseason innings.

Tasintango
15 years ago

I’m a baseball fan, not a New York Yankee baseball fan, so I haven’t been following any of this. Rivera is Rivera until someone can prove to me that he’s fallen off a cliff. I don’t see that he has just yet.

Richie
15 years ago
Reply to  Tasintango

Father Time gets everyone. Given his peripherals, I don’t think he’s lost it, either. But when his peripherals go south, Mo won’t be far behind, never mind what he once used to be.

And if his lost velocity proves to be permanent rather than transient, I’d sell my Mo shares, if there were such things and I had any.

Mike R.
15 years ago
Reply to  Richie

Lost velocity? Without looking at the numbers, I’d bet he is throwing harder than in 2009 at the very least

Shaun Catron
15 years ago
Reply to  Richie

Mo’s effectiveness isn’t about his 2seamer velocity its about his cutter movement and location. When the cutter stops cutting is when Mariano starts his free fall. His cutter has been flat the past few games but I wouldn’t say its Father Time just yet, get back to me in October.

Richie
15 years ago
Reply to  Richie

Reports are his velocity is down from last year. Leastwise I’ve seen people post that his velocity is down from last year. I’m taking those posters at their word. Which you can certainly value or devalue as you deem fit.

Hurtlocker
15 years ago

Age catches up with every player, we know that. But when a guy like Rivera does what he does so well and so consistently for so long we want it to never end. Good luck to him and maybe he will pitch till he’s 50!!

Mike
15 years ago

To put it another way for me,

Is he finished? No.

Is it the beginning of the end? Yes.

juan pierre's mustache
15 years ago
Reply to  Mike

Is the phrase beginning of the end just about meaningless? Yes.

BenFrancisco's butt on the Philles Bench
15 years ago

Ha ha…

After the Allied Victory in the Battle of El Alamein, Churchill said it was not the “beginning of the end” but the End of the Beginning.

Mike
15 years ago

Haha, that’s true. It’s just stuck in my brain because it’s all I’ve been hearing the last few days on radio shows.

NBarnes
15 years ago
Reply to  Mike

As a Red Sox fan, I’ve hoped for the beginning of the end for Mo forever now. At this point, I’ll believe it when I see it.

Nathan
15 years ago

It’s a sad world where 1.2 IP is considered a big enough sample to say anything at all.

RC
15 years ago
Reply to  Nathan

IP isn’t really a sample size though. The sample size would be in BF.

You could face 100 batters in 1.2 IP if you were bad enough.

MikeS
15 years ago

This got em thinking. Will Rivera make the hall of fame? Should he? He sits at 38 WAR at age 41 and I have seen 50 WAR quoted regularly as a bare minimum to get in. Unlikely he picks up another 12 before retirement. He probably doesn’t come real close to 50 for his career. Still, he’s been the best player at his position for most of the last 15 years. A position where most players flame out in less than a third of that.

Does he deserve consideration for pitching in all those postseason games? Do people start to cut relievers some slack since it is hard for them to rack up WAR? Do the answers to these questions differ if he played his career somewhere else?

steve
15 years ago
Reply to  MikeS

he’ll make the hall of fame no question, lets be serious

delv
15 years ago
Reply to  MikeS

Since when are HOF voters concerned with WAR accumulation?

ServiteLegend
15 years ago
Reply to  MikeS

I thought FanGraphs posters would realize that WAR for pitchers has to be adjusted due to high leverage situations.

Plesh
15 years ago
Reply to  ServiteLegend

Yeah…youre probably right…i just dont see Mariano getting into the HoF either

danmcpMember since 2020
15 years ago
Reply to  MikeS

Baseball Reference WAR has him at 54.8 right now

buddy
15 years ago
Reply to  danmcp

Jinx.

MikeS
15 years ago
Reply to  danmcp

Thanks to everybody who replied. Even the ones who felt I’m an idiot.

Why the huge difference between FG and BR? Does BR take LI into account or something?

Another question (just curious) what player in the hall has the lowest WAR total – not counting injury shortened careers?

buddy
15 years ago
Reply to  danmcp

I believe bWAR is based off of ERA (RA?) while fWAR is based off of FIP.

SG
15 years ago
Reply to  danmcp

“Why the huge difference between FG and BR? Does BR take LI into account or something?”

Basically it’s this:

Career ERA: 2.24
Career FIP: 2.77

The gap over 1195 innings is 70 runs. So it depends on whether or not think his defense saved him 70 runs over his career, or you think his cutter suppresses BABIP and he should get credit for that. Given the quality or lack thereof of the defense behind him over most of his career, I think FIP is penalizing him unfairly. He’s an outlier.

So even if you completely ignore leverage, you can add something like 7 to 10 wins to his Fangraphs WAR just on the difference between ERA and FIP.

buddy
15 years ago
Reply to  MikeS

BB-Ref has him at 54.8 WAR.

Small Sample Goodness
15 years ago
Reply to  MikeS

How about looking at WPA instead of WAR? Already over 50, with 60 being a pretty reasonable goal by the time he’s done.

Tack on his post-season exploits as gravy if you’d like, that may be another 10.

JohnnyComeLately
15 years ago
Reply to  MikeS

Hey! Baseball Reference has him at 54.8 WAR right now.

DT
15 years ago
Reply to  MikeS

Using the fangraphs page, from 1871 to 2011…according to Fangraphs page, Mo has the most WAR among all relievers…Gossage is second, and is still 8 WAR behind mo.

Jordan
15 years ago
Reply to  MikeS

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/wpa_def_career.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/earned_run_avg_plus_career.shtml

What’s behind those links, if you’re too lazy to check them out, are the career leaders for adjusted ERA+ and WPA. Mo is 6th all time in WPA (1st among RPs), and first – by 50 points – in ERA+. If you prefer WPA/LI, he’s 22nd all time in that, again including starters. And none of that includes his postseason dominance, which was totally unprecedented – 140 IP, .7 ERA.

slugger27
15 years ago

MikeS – he’s first ballot. WAR is a terrible way too judge his value. Its blatantly obvious his low BABIP and low HR/FB rates aren’t flukes, yet WAR regresses them anyway. Not to mention it ignores context/leverage.

Servite – what the hell are you talking about?

don
15 years ago
Reply to  slugger27

He means the same as you do – you’ve got to take into account that he pitches in high leverage situations. His 38 WAR are context independent, so if his average LI were 2 it’d be worth the same 76 WAR from someone who pitches in neutral leverage situations.

He’s a total shoe-in. The fact that anyone thinks he won’t get into the hall is hilarious.

Al
15 years ago
Reply to  don

He definitely will get in, but it IS a little weird letting somebody in who flunked out as a starter, no? I mean, Roy Oswalt isn’t a HOFer, but we would have a much easier team replicating Mo’s career than Mo would replicating Oswalt’s, right?

?d?v?n
15 years ago

It would be very cool if… in 10 years, Mariano relieves Jamie Moyer in a game.

Cidron
15 years ago
Reply to  ?d?v?n

that, would be good.

Jerome S.
15 years ago
Reply to  ?d?v?n

As a Yankees fan, I pray that that kind of scenario never happens.

josechell
15 years ago

this is only the 8 time in his 15 year career that he has allowed a run 3 games in a row, that’s amazing, he’ll be fine

Mike
15 years ago
Reply to  josechell

Does that include inherited runners? Because he was only charged with 1 run that game.

Dylan
15 years ago

As a Yankee fan who watches a lot of games Mo always go through a 2-3 game stretch at least once a year. Remember actually early in the year he blew a few leads one being in toronto and the yankees lost the game on a walk off hit by Travis Snider

hunterfan
15 years ago
Reply to  Dylan

Walkoff HBP to Jeff Francouer with bases loaded was the ugliest.

ServiteLegend
15 years ago

Mariano Rivera will probably get 650 saves. However, a closer’s collapse may be precipitous: Hoffman had a 1.83 ERA season in 2010 (and 37 saves) with great peripherals HR/9: 0.3 K/9 8.0, and BB/9 2.3, but was absolutely atrocious in 2011. One cannot infer a collapse based on his 2010 stats

Sultan of Schwwingg
15 years ago

“When Mariano finally retires, my guess is the only category Wilhelm still outpaces him in his Innings Pitched”

Yeah, just that.

I have no problem agreeing that Mo is the best closer since baseball bastardized the closer role, but since he hasn’t been asked to pitch 100+ innings each year, I have a major issue agreeing that Mo is better than Hoyt, Lyle, Eck, Goose, Quisenberry, et el were when the closer role often had these guys pitch 2+ innings – actually close close games out. It’s a whole new role today and there’s no data proving that Mo could have been any where near as successful as those other guys after pitching so often.

Mo is the best closer today, though. Or at least he was last week 🙂

Andrew
15 years ago

I don’t agree that the closer role has been ‘bastardized.’ There’s nothing wrong with the closer role as it is today, except that managers are often reluctant to use the closer (their best reliever) when a high leverage situation arises in the 7th or 8th inning. Mariano was very effective in over 100 innings as a setup man for John Wetteland in 1996. The only person who thinks that Goose Gossage was better than Mariano Rivera is Goose Gossage.

Sultan of Schwwingg
15 years ago
Reply to  Andrew

That may have been his most productive year (per fWAR, it was). Also, yes, exactly:
Wilhelm 1.84
Goose 1.61
Lyle 1.55
Quiz 1.55

Eck 1.14 (wow, so wrong)
Mo 1.13

Big difference, imo.

Sultan of Schwwingg
15 years ago
Reply to  Andrew

Terrible. Innings pitcher game, obviously?

Andrew
15 years ago
Reply to  Andrew

D.J. Carrasco averages like 1.74 innings per game, but that doesn’t make him better than Rivera or Eckersley or even Gossage. The quality of innings thrown is just as important as the quantity. Why do you think that Rivera has compiled more fWAR than Goosage in over 600 fewer innings? Probably because, according to ERA-, his innings have been twice as good as the average pitcher over the span of his career. A.J. Burnett could stand on the mound and struggle his way through 5 innings, giving up 8 runs along the way, but just because he pitched 5 innings doesn’t mean he performed well.

Mike R.
15 years ago

You can tell how much people respect Rivera through the comments…can’t really say that in regards to another certain Yankee.

BenFrancisco's butt on the Phillies Bench
15 years ago
Reply to  Mike R.

You mean A-Rod? Jeter possibly?

Juancho
15 years ago
Reply to  Mike R.

Yep. Even Yankee-haters don’t hate Rivera, because he’s just so damn good, and they didn’t buy him at auction, and he’s not a jerk.

Dream scenario: Eric Hosmer drives a 1-1 cutter over the right field wall in the Stadium off Rivera in the bottom of the ninth of the seventh game of the 2014 ALCS.

I just hope Hosmer’s playing for the Royals when he does it.

Juancho
15 years ago
Reply to  Juancho

Wait. That would be the top of the ninth. Duh. The Yanks still get to take their best shot at Soria. Assuming Dayton hasn’t traded him, either.

BubbaJays
15 years ago

Hate the Yanks. But waiting for Rivera’s decline is kind of like hoping Michael Jordon would retire. Here’s a vote for the age side losing.

Enoch44
15 years ago

Mike S – They haven’t changed the official name to the Hall of WAR yet.

These are the kind of comments that make it hard those for us who love statistics.

gtrweqry
15 years ago

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CircleChange11
15 years ago

For career WAR, I prefer bWAR b/c some pitchers have shown the ability to suppress BABIP and maintain higher LOB%.

For single season WAR, I prefer to average bWAR and fWAR.

NEPP
15 years ago
Reply to  CircleChange11

Well, it is nice to judge a guy on what actually happened, not what could/should have happened per averaged percentages.

CircleChange11
15 years ago

The “problem” seems to arise from a situation of people using WAR (especially in conversation) to describe BOTH [1] a player’s on field value, and [2] his true talent.

Those can be mutually exclusive.

WAR measures what happened on the field. “little letter” WAR can tell us what coulda/shoulda/woulda happened in a neutral environment and/or with league average HR rates, etc.

But, in terms of “on field value”, you have to count the luck (good or bad), because it happened and it provided value.

True talent is a different story.