Mariners and D’Backs Exchange Upside and Downside
Apparently Mike Hazen and Jerry Dipoto don’t have anything better to do on Thanksgiving eve than make a big trade that makes those of us with stuff to do have to apologize to our family and start working. Thanks, jerks. Have some pie and take a day off already.
Personal aspersions at the GMs aside, Arizona and Seattle have pulled off a pretty fascinating trade. The particulars.
Taijuan Walker, SP
Ketel Marte, SS
Jean Segura, SS
Mitch Haniger, OF
Zac Curtis, LHP
Mike Hazen’s first big trade as Arizona’s GM is to sell high on the best player acquired by previous GM Dave Stewart. The Diamondbacks hit the jackpot buying low on Segura last winter, as a player who had racked up +3.6 WAR during his career in Milwaukee put up a +5 WAR season in his one year in the desert. Rather than bet on him coming back and having another career year, Arizona turned Segura into another buy-low guy in Walker, who has long been hailed as a possible frontline starter but hasn’t lived up to the potential yet.
It’s pretty easy to see Hazen’s rationale here; he turns a 27-year-old and a 26-year-old into a 24-year-old and a 23-year-old, picking up extra team control years in the process, and in Walker, he lands a guy who could easily be worth more than Segura long-term, especially if you don’t buy into Segura’s power spike. The Diamondbacks get younger and pick up some extra long-term value, and in reality, they probably don’t make themselves much worse in 2017 either; Haniger didn’t have a role on their team at the moment, and Curtis is mostly a throw-in.
From Seattle’s perspective, this looks reasonable enough if you buy into two things.
1. The team’s long-term future depends mostly on them winning in the short-term, given the age of the guys anchoring the roster, so current wins are worth a lot more to Seattle than future wins.
2. Haniger is a potential above-average regular. While Segura is going to be the guy everyone focuses on, Haniger might just be the guy who makes this deal work for Seattle — if it works for Seattle — by giving them a quality OF they don’t really have at the moment. Eric Longenhagen’s write-up on him from the Arizona Prospect Report is particularly useful now.
While big-league pitchers were able to exploit Haniger’s vulnerability to pitches down and away during his late-season cup of coffee, he’s an above-average runner with plus raw power. Players with that tool combination aren’t exactly easy to come by. Haniger was demoted to High-A as a 24-year old in 2015 after slugging a paltry .379 for Double-A Mobile. It looked like bad news to those of us on the outside who thought the Diamondbacks were souring on him, but in reality Haniger proactively told the D-backs he’d accept a demotion if it meant he could play every day which, with prospects Evan Marzilli, Socrates Brito and Gabriel Guerrero also in Mobile by mid-year, wasn’t going to happen at Double-A. Haniger made a swing change (profiled here and here by excellent D-backs beat writer Nick Piecoro) and took off. You can see the old swing here.
Scouts are a little bit apprehensive about Haniger’s propensity to swing and miss and think there’s a good chance he either ends up as a platoon bat or power-first fourth outfielder who can play center field in a pinch. Given Haniger’s purported makeup and clear ability to make significant adjustments, I think there’s a non-zero chance he’s a late-blooming average regular but it’s more likely he falls just short of that. The Diamondbacks acquired Haniger along with Anthony Banda from Milwaukee in exchange for Gerardo Parra.
If Haniger turns into a fourth OF, I don’t know if Seattle will get the upgrade they were looking for in turning Walker’s upside and whatever Marte might be into Segura’s 2017 and 2018 seasons, but there are reasons to think that maybe Haniger has some remaining value left. Most notably, he played 182 of his 258 innings with Arizona in CF, and D’Backs beat writer Nick Piecoro texted me after the trade was announced to say that he thought Haniger’s defense in center was quite good, and definitely better than just a get-away-with-it glove.
If Haniger is a good enough defender to be a regular CF, then the offense could make him more valuable than Segura, especially if his 2016 improvement was more breakout than fluke. The projections aren’t sold, especially after he didn’t hit that well in the big leagues, but if you’re into speculative buys on late-bloomers, there are some reasons to think that maybe Haniger could be on the late-developing-star track. From a Piecoro story in August.
A year ago, he was getting inconsistent at-bats with Mobile when the organization demoted him to High-A Visalia. While there, he began incorporating a leg kick. Then in the offseason, he continued to tinker with his swing mechanics, adjusting where he holds his hands and altering his swing path.
For Haniger, the changes were borne from a question: Why was it that other hitters who weren’t as big or as strong as he was were able to drive the ball to the opposite field with more authority? He began studying swings of players like Josh Donaldson and A.J. Pollock and read up on the hitting philosophies of Bobby Tewksbary, a coach who helped both of those hitters develop into All-Stars.
“I feel like now I’m able to recognize pitches better,” Haniger said. “I can make up my mind whether to swing or not later than I have in the past because my swing is deeper in the zone. I’m able to stay off close pitches. It’s easier for me to use all fields and to see pitches better.”
Donaldson and Pollock certainly aren’t bad examples to follow, and they aren’t the only guys who have improved dramatically after working with Tewksbury; Eno Sarris wrote about Ryon Healy also making similar adjustments, and he was a revelation for the A’s this year after not really being considered much of a prospect.
There’s a lot of ifs here. If Haniger’s glove really is as good as Piecoro thought — which could make him a very good defensive corner OF in Seattle, since Leonys Martin is still around — and if some of these swing changes were the reason for his 2016 breakout, then he could be an average or better hitter with some real defensive value. And with six years of team control, that would make him the real get in this deal for the Mariners, likely offsetting a lot of the long-term value they may lose with Walker and Marte gone gone.
If Haniger is just an ordinary defensive OF without enough bat to carry him, then I think Arizona will be happy with this deal, getting younger and selling high on a guy whose value didn’t really have anywhere to go but down. But if Haniger turns into a 100 to 110 wRC+ guy with plus defense in a corner or enough glove to play center? Well, all of the sudden, that’s a pretty great piece too, and would fill a hole the Mariners definitely needed to fill.
So, yeah, this is a fascinating trade. I don’t know if I’m sold enough on Haniger, so I’d probably prefer Arizona’s side, but for a win-now Mariners team, you can see the potential for this to make the team a lot better in the near future. And given that Walker is, at this point, more upside than realized value, it’s not that hard to see why the Mariners preferred to push in now, before their old stars stop playing like stars.
And for Arizona, while I might have short-changed them in words here, this is an easy deal to like from their end. If Walker turns into this year’s Segura, and they hit on another buy-low talent, Mike Hazen will be plenty happy with his first deal as the Diamondbacks GM.
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
As graceful as I’m sure Nick Piecoro is in centerfield, I believe you meant Haniger in the 7th paragraph. Great read though, appreciation for working over the holiday.
Diamondbacks sold high on Segura.
Mariners sold low on Walker & Marte.
I think the simplest explanation is that the Mariners just aren’t that high on Walker, and don’t think that the chance of him putting it together is that high compared to the risk. You have to take into account the fact that Taijuan Walker has been hurt a lot, while Segura has been mostly healthy. Pitchers are inherently greater injury risks, and Taijuan Walker more so than many pitchers. (He’s also estimated to have a 39% higher than average chance for TJ surgery)
Exactly. Walker has 350 IP in the majors — he’s not some raw prospect. If the Mariners liked him and/or were not worried about his leg injuries, there is almost no way they would make this deal.
In addition: the Mariners have a deserved reputation for being an org that has, over multiple GM regimes, been unable to develop prospects… but that’s position prospects. They don’t seem any worse at developing pitching prospects than any other org (pitching prospects being such a crap shoot anyway, it’s hard to know). So if they’re willing to sell low on Walker, it doesn’t necessarily imply there’s latent upside in there waiting to be unlocked by some other team’s pitching coach magic.
Who has a metric measuring the likeliness of a specific injury occurring? I’m curious, because it seems that the majority of these projections are based upon past workload which doesn’t exactly have high predictive power. For the record, I completely agree that Dipoto and Kingston were worried about TW, but they were most likely equally concerned about Ketel’s projectability at the plate.
As a Diamondbacks fan, I’m very thankful to finally have an acquisition that can prompt an actual discussion on its merits, instead of immediately knowing that it was a bonehead move….!
I like this one, because I still believe in Tai, but there is of course big risk on both sides.
You know this isn’t really work, Dave.
Of course this is workk diamond hoggers. Also i am very drunk right now.
If it is work, writing about baseball in front of the warmth of a fire in your own home beats being under the fluorescent lights selling for a living. Come on now folks.
> with Walker and Marte gone gone.
I don’t know if this is intentional or not, but it’s a little hilarious either way.
I like this trade for Seattle. They got 2 years of the best player in the trade. Giving up 3 years of Walker and 4 years of Marte doesn’t mean much because neither is very good. Plus, Seattle gets this Haniger potential.
In the Arizona FO: Meet the new boss; Same as the old boss
One quick article and you can get back to celebrating the slaughter of thousands of Native Americans.
First of it was millions.
Secondly for the vast vast vast majority of people there is no political or nationalist component to Thanksgiving.
It’s clearly a holiday about family and recognizing ones blessings.
The creation myth of the holiday is irrelevant now. Thanksgiving is one of two or 3 times each year when the modern American family comes together and remembers the journey.
Especially nowadays with families so spread out.
Your ‘Merica is showing
Yes, it was millions. And people can sometimes get a little sentimental about the Indians that were here when the first European settlers arrived. After all, if they had not been so busy warring with each other, there is no way the first European settlements could’ve survived. In that regard they were no better or worse than the people who displaced them—they just had inferior weapons. It should also be remembered that many of the original inhabitants of this continent succumbed not to instruments of war but to diseases to which they had no immunity.
Well done idiot
You have that completely backwards. It’s a day to show gratitude (hence the name) for the help from the Native Americans.
It’s the slaughter of thousands of innocent turkeys which has been a morbid byproduct.
It’s the day each year that I celebrate looking so damn unappetizing that Mr. Organic Farmer just leaves me alone to watch football.
I’m just about certain you won’t care…but…..there are many, many websites where people are anxious to talk and debate politics. Would it be too much to ask you to go to one? FG’s a refuge. Virtually everyone respects that. Common courtesy, ya know?
Triple digit downvotes. You did it!
So Arizona just traded for a homer-prone pitcher who had trouble keeping the ball in the park playing in Seattle and now you’re going to ask him to pitch at Coors field lite?
And Coors Field a few times a year, too.
While the point about moving from a pitcher’s park to a hitter’s park is generally true for Walker, Chase Field is not particularly a HR park. For most of its’ history, it has only slightly been a HR park. Where it really leans heavy for hitters is 2B and 3B.
Depends how you calc. park factors…
http://statcorner.com/team/109/2016/Arizona%20Diamondbacks
http://statcorner.com/team/109/2015/Arizona%20Diamondbacks
http://statcorner.com/team/109/2014/Arizona%20Diamondbacks
All XBH are inflated at Chase Field.
Will be interesting to see if Seattle keeps Smith much longer or use him as a chip for pitching depth. Will be interesting to see if O’Neill is used as a bigger chip for pitching as well. Seattle has Moore on the rise, who might be of help mid-season, but they still lack top-end potential on the farm. Regardless, it’s nice to see the Mariners with a solid SS and three legitimate defensive outfielders to choose from for the corners. It will also be interesting to see if Valencia is used more at 1B, or in RF.
It would be disappointing if O’Neill is traded, as he may be the only position player prospect in the system since Kyle who has developed as well or better than expected. If Smith or Smith+ can land a legit #3 starter, that would be of great value to the org. If not, he is the only sure bat in the outfield. I’m not sure a win-now team should toss that away.
One year of a 34 year old platoon bat landing a number 3 starter in this pitching market? Pass the pipe.
As a veteran, I missed many thanksgivings totally away from my family, not just a few hours. I never complained, nor should I. Dave you should be thankful you get to write about this trade, no manner how inconvenient it may be to your selfish ways.
As a veteran myself, you need to learn to recognize sarcasm and put your judgmental ways in check.
Normally I would Agee with you, but I’ve seen this complaint before. Sometimes sarcasm is makeup. So put your judgemental ways in check.
Just because you are a veteran doesn’t necessarily prevent you from being an asshole.
[LHPSU drops mic]
Old timey baseball trade. Me like
Hanniger reminds me a bit of Kole Calhoun. Pretty good plate discipline in the minors, good pop, good corner outfield defense (maybe center, too, in Hanniger’s case). Both are smart runners but without the ability to really steal a ton of bases. And both, obviously are late bloomers.
Ms are in win-now mode so the deal makes sense. DBacks, despite 2016 FA signings, are in rebuild, but Walker might take a couple more seasons to find his groove or he might not.
taijuan walker is garbage, why are people STILL so high on him?
6ft 4in, 235 lbs, mid-90’s fastball.
And he’s 24 years old.
His problem is his fastball is straight and high.
Fix either and he’s at least a closer.
dave, after your all-out bashing of the segura trade as a disaster- (with such shameless remarks as ‘2. Howie Kendrick is good. Jean Segura is bad.’ http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/howie-kendrick-jean-segura-and-arizonas-latest-mistake/) maybe you could at least acknowledge the quality talent evaluation of tony larussa /d. stewart. i know you don’t respect their process, but not every move they made was garbage- and turning aaron hill/chase anderson into the value of taijuan walker deserves at least a little bit of love. and how much better did that turn out, than signing howie kendrick would have? well, kendrick just proved his value is about equal to the great darin ruf
Convenient to leave the 19-20 year old ss(isan diaz) who hit 20 homers out of your valuation as well.
It is convenient, but if you are implying that Isan Diaz evened it out… well, that isn’t accurate either.
Segura and Haniger sound like a significant upgrade defensively and the Mariners were awful defensively, especially in LF and SS. If both players are above average at position hitting should be a positive for the M’s.
Your anti-Segura bias is everywhere in this article. I know that WAR told you that he is a worthless player and you made up your mind a year ago, but he kind of proved that “analysis” wrong. I would like to think that you are learning from the absolute way in which you view players, but I am not sure. It feels like you really want Segura to be as bad as WAR told you he was. The idea that Hanniger is the bigger piece is as absurd.