Mariners Break the Bank, Hope Robinson Cano Defies Odds

This time around, there was no Mystery Team. Rather than reports of back room dealings or whispers of an unreported offer, this courtship was about as public as it gets. The Mariners wanted Robinson Cano, and were willing to pay a premium to get him. And with the Yankees holding firm on their offer at roughly $175 million over seven years, the Mariners convinced Cano to leave New York by simply blowing away the next best offer. The final tally, according to Enrique Rojas: $240 million over 10 years.

It’s a monster of a contract, tied for the third largest in baseball history. Alex Rodriguez has signed two contracts larger than this, and Albert Pujols signed this same contract with the Angels two years ago. The Rangers paid the Yankees to take the first A-Rod deal off their hands, the Yankees are hoping MLB helps them get out from under part of the second one, and I just rated the Pujols contract as the most untradable contract in baseball a few months back. So, yeah, the history of contracts at this level isn’t exactly flowing with reasons for optimism.

That said, there’s a difference between $240 million in 2014 and $252 million in 2001. The relative value of what you can buy for $25 million a year has changed a lot over the last decade, and relative to the contracts being signed at the time, this isn’t really at the same level of either of the first two A-Rod contracts. The Pujols comparison is more fair, since it’s just a few years old and at the same price, but noting that the Pujols deal has become a disaster does not mean that the Cano deal is bound to be a disaster too. As I wrote in my piece on the Jacoby Ellsbury signing, we can find an example of any kind of player or contract that went poorly. Simply pointing out that the Pujols contract looks like a big mistake isn’t all that helpful.

That said, we generally know how these deals work: teams take on a lot of dead money at the end of long term contracts in exchange for getting early contract AAVs that are significant bargains relative to a player’s performance. Cano, for the next 3-5 years, is likely going to be worth far more than the $24 million per year he’ll be making, and if they backload the contract, the value up is going to be shifted even more to the front. For the next few seasons, Robinson Cano is going to be a huge bargain.

And that he’s going to be a huge albatross. The last few years of this deal are going to suck for the Mariners. It’s why the Yankees drew a line in the sand at seven years; they didn’t want to pay Cano $25 million per year age ages 38-40, because they’ve witnessed the negative effects of spending huge chunks of money on near useless players, even if you have a lot of money to spend. The Yankees decided that Cano’s short term value simply wasn’t worth the long term cost. The Mariners have decided that it is.

Who is right? Well, it depends on a few things, basically.

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1. At what point does Cano switch from being an asset (relative to his actual yearly salary, not his overall contract) to a liability? The Pujols deal looks so atrocious because that point was actually year two, and it doesn’t like he’ll be worth his salary in any season from here on out. The Angels got one year of value and nine years of dead weight. That sucks. We shouldn’t expect the same from Cano, though.

Steamer projects Cano to be worth +5.4 WAR in 635 plate appearances next year. If you just started at that level and then subtracted half a win per season over the next 10 years, you’d end up with a forecast of +31.5 WAR over the next 10 years. Dan Szymborski tweeted out his 10 year ZIPS projection for Cano, and it’s actually even more encouraging.

Because he’s projecting very little decline over the next three seasons, the total forecast from ZIPS is +35 WAR over those 10 years. At +32 WAR, we’d be looking at $7.5 million per win; at +35 WAR, we’re looking at $6.9 million per win. That’s actually a little less than what the Yankees paid for Jacoby Ellsbury, and pretty much in line with the average price of a win in the market this winter. From that perspective, this isn’t actually a huge overpay, relative to what other free agents are expected to produce and what they have been signing for this winter.

But, not every market value contract is a good idea for every team. That’s the second part of the calculation; can the Mariners actually extract value from Cano in the years in which he’s expected to still be a premier player? This is a team that won 71 games and were outscored by 130 runs a year ago. By my estimation, before signing Cano, they were something like the 12th best team in the American League, better only than the Twins, White Sox, and Astros. Adding Cano certainly makes them better, but it probably pushes them up to being something like the 9th best team in the AL; they are still clearly not anywhere near the level of the Red Sox, Tigers, A’s, Rangers, or Rays, and still look to be comfortably behind the Royals, Indians, and Blue Jays. They’re now comparable to the Orioles, or the Yankees before they spend any more money. Robinson Cano doesn’t turn the Mariners into a good team.

But the Mariners aren’t done either. They’ve been linked to David Price. They now have to trade Nick Franklin, since Robinson Cano just took his job, and perhaps they can ship him to a team like Kansas City, Toronto, or Atlanta for a piece of some value that could upgrade another position. And they still have money to spend, as even with Cano, they’re probably still only looking at around $60 to $65 million in payroll for 2014. If they push that towards $100 million, they could easily still sign two or three free agents to fill some of the holes on the team and make themselves a more serious contender.

But I still can’t shake the feeling that the Mariners are traveling on the path that the 2013 Royals just took. They pushed in for James Shields and Wade Davis, traded for Ervin Santana, and signed Jeremy Guthrie in order to revamp their rotation and make a run at the playoffs. They went from 72 wins to 86 wins.

It was a huge improvement. It wasn’t enough, though. They still missed the playoffs, and now they have one year left before James Shields hits free agency; if they don’t win this year, then they gave up four years of Wil Myers to just be a slightly better runner-up.

I’m not opposed to bad teams trying to get better. In fact, I’m all for teams trying to win, even if they haven’t done so lately. I don’t think you have to be good before you should spend money, or try to make yourself into a contender. I do think, however, that teams should be realistic about the probabilities of contending, and should reserve their extreme future-for-present moves until they’re at a point at which upgrading in the short term is likely to push the team into the critical area where wins are most valuable.

If the Mariners were an 83 or 84 win team and then added Robinson Cano, that would make them a pretty legitimate contender, and perhaps the short term boost of a playoff run would help justify the long term cost of signing up for dead money years at the end of this deal. But I just don’t see an 83 win team around Robinson Cano. I see four above average players — Felix Hernandez, Hisashi Iwakuma, Kyle Seager, and Brad Miller — and then a host of players who range from somewhere between terrible and maybe useful. There’s potential, certainly, with guys like Taijuan Walker and Mike Zunino, so it isn’t out of the realm of possibility that a few kids could take big steps forward and help make the Mariners a good team again, but possible isn’t probable. You make moves based on what’s likely, not on what would be fun if it all worked.

Maybe the Mariners will find a way to add David Price without costing themselves a pitcher off their current rotation. Maybe they’ll make three or four good free agent signings that add enough value to push the team towards that 90 win mark for the next few years. It is possible. This could work.

It could also be a total disaster, though. If the other moves don’t come together, or simply aren’t enough to turn a bad team into a good team, the Mariners could easily have the best second baseman in baseball surrounded by a supporting cast that still doesn’t leave them with a better than .500 club. And this team is very vulnerable to injuries, especially to either Cano or Hernandez, who represent a huge chunk of the team’s chances of contention. A prolonged DL stint by either one probably sinks their season.

There’s upside and risk, as there is with every deal. For me, though, this is too much risk and not enough upside. When the Angels signed Albert Pujols a few years ago, I concluded with this:

I don’t know that spending $25 million per year on Pujols is actually going to provide a better return than using that money to lock up some combination of Aybar, Kendrick, and Haren, and if the Angels have to let several of those players go to keep their payrolls at reasonable levels, it’s not clear that they’ve actually improved their ability to contend during the time when Pujols still projects as an elite player.

If the Cardinals had signed him to this same deal, I think I probably could have talked myself into it. Pujols is great enough that this kind of contract isn’t totally crazy on its face, but when you look at the context of the Angels situation and how much this actually improves them, I just don’t know that this is how they should have spent $250 million. Perhaps Arte Moreno will approve payroll increases up to $200 million and they’ll be able to keep the core of their team together, but if I was an Angels fan, I’d be a little worried that I might be heading to the park to watch Pujols play with a cast of teammates that just aren’t quite good enough to keep up with the Rangers in the AL West.

The Angels are now contenders in 2012, but I don’t know if the present value added for the next year or two is worth the long term consequences of this contract. The Angels are going to need a lot of things to break their way in order for this to work.

I think I feel mostly the same here. This deal isn’t totally crazy on its face. There are reasonable forecasts that suggest that Cano could actually produce more value than you’d expect by spreading $240 million around across multiple players. But I don’t love the context of this deal. I don’t see the Mariners as being well positioned to take advantage of Cano’s value years. Like the Royals of last year, they wanted to move up their window to win, and they paid a big long term cost in order to do so. But it’s not clear that the window to win was close enough to reality to make it a good trade-off, and the risks associated with this kind of plan are extremely high.

There are scenarios where this works out for the Mariners. There are more scenarios where Cano (and whatever else they add this winter) isn’t enough to help make this team good while he’s still producing relative to his contract, or where he simply doesn’t age particularly well and the contract turns into an albatross earlier than expected.

The Mariners have made a big bet on the second half of Robinson Cano’s career. Other elite second baseman have aged pretty well, and perhaps Cano will be more Joe Morgan than Roberto Alomar. The Mariners are now betting on it, and betting that the rest of their roster can get good enough to get Cano to the playoffs to justify this investment. We’ll see if it works out. I’d say I’m skeptical.





Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.

305 Comments
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Cory
12 years ago

The Mariners are now still trying to either trade for Kemp or sign Nelson Cruz, and then trade for David Price.

We’re watching franchise suicide here. The Mariners really are the new Royals. If I was one of their fans I’d be sick to my stomach. All they’re going to do now is compete for 3rd for the next decade.

Guy
12 years ago
Reply to  Cory

Trust me, I am definitely feeling nauseous.

Kurt Cobain
12 years ago
Reply to  Guy

Is Cano a mulatto, a mestizo, an albino, or a libido?

J
12 years ago
Reply to  Kurt Cobain

this was brilliant. what the hell fangraphs readers.

Mitchell Below
12 years ago
Reply to  Kurt Cobain

This is Seattle; mocha frappuccino.

dustin
12 years ago
Reply to  Kurt Cobain

For those who don’t understand, you might want to read the lyrics of Nirvana – “Smells Like Teen Spirit”

Joe
12 years ago
Reply to  Kurt Cobain

Too many people thought it was racist and not Nirvana lyrics.

Well-Beered Englishman
12 years ago
Reply to  Cory

The new Royals? Are you sure?

I suppose Dayton Moore would have given Francoeur 10/$240M if he had had the budget for it…

Cory
12 years ago

In the sense that they’re mortgaging all their current resources/assets in order to finish in 3rd place, yes, the new Royals.

Rauce
12 years ago
Reply to  Cory

“Mortgaging all their current resources…”
The impact on the Royals farm system by The Trade was massively overstated.
They lost a tremendous prospect in Wil Myers, but they won’t miss Odorizzi or either of the lottery tickets included.
I’m not defending The Trade, I’m just pointing out that the “they sold the farm” hysteria/argument is categorically false.
Overpay? Yes, but the Royals are definitely still a Top 10 farm system and maybe Top 5, with five prospects probably in the Top 100.

Preston
12 years ago
Reply to  Cory

They should miss Odorizzi right now.

Ruki Motomiya
12 years ago
Reply to  Cory

I love how trading Wil Myers is morgaging the entire farm.

The James Shield trade is only bad for the Royals if they don’t continue to go for it this year (which is my primary worry).

NS
12 years ago
Reply to  Cory

Wil Myers was not the only player traded. Trading two top 50 prospects is pretty close to the definition of trading the farm, even among good systems.

Linus
12 years ago
Reply to  Cory

The Mariners haven’t mortgaged anything, not least because they don’t have that many assets. They sign the best 2B in baseball to a big contract, and suddenly they’re in a downward death spiral?

ASURay
12 years ago
Reply to  Cory

What have the Mariners “mortgaged” so far? They haven’t traded Walker/Franklin for Price (yet). So far, all they’ve done is spent money. Neither you nor I know how much money the team has and/or are able to spend. They could have limited resources, for all we know. The problem with the “don’t spend money on FA” argument is that is assumes some knowledge about a team’s financial situation. No one outside of the teams’ inner-circle has actual knowledge about that situation.

ValueArb
12 years ago
Reply to  Cory

Odorizzi and Wil Meyers alone were worth probably $70M last off season, and then throw in the other two prospects.

KC gave up $70Mish of prospects and increased payroll $30M to get 2 years of Shields & Davis. Shields and Davis weren’t worth $50M last year, and won’t be worth it this year either.

KC hadn’t had a prospect remotely as valuable as Will Meyers and it will probably be years before they develop another. They did the trade to cement Frenchy for a half season in Right Field, and Frenchy/Shields/Davis KC produced barely over 4 wins by fWAR combined.

Odorrizi/Myers were worth 2.7 fWAR in barely a half season combined, plus a savings of $15M a year. Obviously the Royals would have needed another pitcher. A free agent who was available, Anibel Sanchez will make less than $24M on the first 2 years of his deal, and giving him 20% more to sign him not only would have added 6.2 fWAR to the Royals, but subtracted it pretty directly from their division winner. Given Odorizzi would have pitched more in KC and Myers likely is brought up sooner, that probably would have added another 6 wins or so, and deducted almost as many from Detroit.

But Anibel Sanchez was best possible case. What if the Royals couldn’t have signed him and would have had to settle for Dan Haren or Edwin Jackson? Haren/Myers/Odorrizi gets them the same or higher fWAR, and they keep 5 years of the youngsters locked up for their future, plus two more lower level prospects.

Edwin Jackson gives them even higher fWAR, and again keeps their farm system flush, and their future payroll manageable.

And before someone says fWAR for pitchers is based on FIPS, not actual results, and points out that Jackson/Haren were terrible and mediocre, just stop, because they were both better than Wade Davis. Wade Davis had a 5.38 ERA, and threw substantially fewer innings per start and for the season than EJax. Davis’s fWAR of 1.7 is LOLtastic, as is the fact that KC gave up Odorrizzi to pay Davis $8M.

There is no defense, one of the worst trades in recent memory, that gave away hugely valuable assets to entrench two awful performers (Davis & Frenchy) just to save a few million a year on aquiring a very good starting pitcher.

After Shields leaves, the smoking crater this deal left is going to be even more apparent.

Balthazar
12 years ago
Reply to  Cory

No organization has, or ever will, come out ahead on a 9-10 year contract. There’s the decline/injury aspect. There’s the tied to one skill-set/personality aspect. There’s the inherent lessened need to perform when a guy has huge money guaranteed forever: the org owns his time less than he owns the orgs assets and media leverage. Contracts of this term are dumb; in most cases driven by ego, in others by desperation. (I don’t see _this_ deal driven by either, it’s worse than that.) Cano is a good player, now. I have my reservations on how he got that way, but this isn’t the place or time for that. The stupidest part of this deal outside of the length is that the Mariners just signed a marquee player at the _one, single position_ where they have all of depth, quality, youth, and inexpensiveness. Sure, Cano is better than what’s there now; he’s done it, we don’t have to project. But stupid team design is just . . . because Mariners. My one hope is that this is three-years-and-moved, in the manner of the Whale Deal for Fielder down to Texas. If the Mariners buy Cano’s good years, presuming he continues to have them, and shift him on even at a $$$ loss, I can’t say too much against that. I’m not counting on that outcome.

But to me, this signing has nothing to do, really, with what Cano does ON THE FIELD. Mariners’ ownership and still current team president are a pair of media shills who have no comprehension of the business in which their asset nominally produces—competitive professional team sports—but see asset enhancement entirely a function of branding and media strategy. Wins? Those are hard to get, and Mariners flounder-ship has a lousy record on acquiring those through managing their asset. But player-face branding, cable media on-selling, and contant “Come down to a family-friendly experience reveling in Player X and Player Y” [so what if we lose and overcharge you, you stupid, horrible, little people you],” _THAT_ is what Mariners’ ownership understands and pursues, relentlessly and ineptly in equal measure. Mariners owner-level has ‘mangaged their asset’ to real paper gains, yes—but a fraction of what they could have achieved for the team valuation had they bothered to win and keep the seats full. The Mariners’ asset strategy—promoting—has been pursued at a huge opportunity-cost to an effective asset strategy—winning.

Cano, and more Famous Namz to come, are here to pump of the floundering media strategy of the Mariners, not to perform and win on the field. That is my view. And yes, in that regard, Howard Lincoln and Chuck Armstrong ARE desperate. In Seattle, our ever more popular football team is having the finest season in its history; our local soccer team sells out 35K tickets every game to frenetic fans in what is a national phenomenon; . . . while our baseball team clocks in >12k listed sales a game, and is in danger of sinking below the draw of minor league hockey. That is because a) the team doesn’t win, b) they lose damn ugly at an historical level of excresence, and c) the first wave out of the farm system in the rebuild did a collective face plant even while the team’s media department was trying, risably, to promote them as family-friendly superstars (which none of them will ever be, the latter part). So what does our braindead trust of craggy, whitebread, old boys see as the solution? “Get me Famous Namz, damn you!”

Dont’ hang all this on Jack Zd; we’ve heard far too much of that, most of it erroneously in my view. Yes, Jack had a free hand his first three years. When the first wave of his acquisitions crashed, he came under pressure to get ‘promotable bats’ as far as I can tell. Mariners flounder-ship has a long history of interfering in major personell decisions, exactly of the ‘get me a top of the rotation starter, get me a RH power bat with national cred’ kind of way. When not being ludicriously pinch-penny the other way—and both modalities ever at EXACTLY THE WRONG TIME. Which this signing of Cano is from any standpoint than a desperate ploy to fool the fanbase by propping up the media strategy. Any signing like Cano is made at the ownership level anyway, but all of this fits the past M.O. of Mariners’ Ownership & Cronies as far as I read it.

The Cano deal, in and of itself, may not doom the Mariners; it may even pay off for a few years. Texas got a few, good, big years out of A-Rod (and we now know just how he got big-good to deliver those, don’t we?). What is realy chilling for me as a trying-to-remain fan of the Mariners is the thinking _behind_ the acquisition as I lay it out here, supposing. Seeing the young guys sort themselves out, form a core, and win has been the sole reason to still follow this sad-sack shop run by very rich fools. The kind of rockheaed, media whore, thinking evident to me in this latest patzer move has been very, very costly to this franchise over the last 20 years. And I do guarantee also this org will _never_ win in post season so long as Howard Lincoln has anything to do with major decision making here; he really is this dumb and that bad. And it looks like the controlling vote on major decisons here will only reach competent hands when somebody pries the greasy joystick from his cold dead fingers. Sometime around when Cano’s decline years reach the elevator-shaft-left-open trajectory, yeah.

Dayton Moore
12 years ago

You know, Frenchy is still available.

Hmmm.

Leftfield Limey
12 years ago

“All they’re going to do now is compete for 3rd for the next decade.”

With payroll at $65m post Cano deal maybe but maybe not.

The Mariners have been trying to pick the lock to escape the basement for the past deacade but were not getting very far and have decided to see if blowing the hinges off does the trick.

Deelron
12 years ago

They escaped the basement by adding an Astros sub basement, sadly we count from the top.

Steve Holt!!
12 years ago

And the astros sub-basement has a pretty good elevator.

ValueArb
12 years ago

Giving Cano roughly a tax adjusted 60% more than the Yankees or anyone else offered is like blowing the hinges, the door, the frame and the foundation off.

tz
12 years ago

Sounds like someone should add a whine cellar to the sub-basement, for all these comments.

chuckb
12 years ago

Because Francoeur and Cano are equally good.

Cidron
12 years ago
Reply to  chuckb

In one GM’s mind they are. Looking at you Dayton Moore.

BFR
12 years ago
Reply to  Cory

Bear in mind that competing for 3rd over the next decade is actually an improvement.

LaLoosh
12 years ago
Reply to  Cory

aside from dealing Taijuan Walker for 2 yrs of David Price, why is this plan suicide? They have 2 aces in their rotation and just 60M committed to 2014?? They can easily add Choo and deal Franklin for something useful. It’s the right time to try and compete. Should they wait until Felix is 34?

Preston
12 years ago
Reply to  LaLoosh

As long as they’re willing to spend more and make reasonable trades (I agree trading Walker for Price would be dumb) then I think they can compete. But they need to be honest in assessing their talent. Ackley cannot hit well enough to be the starting left fielder on a competitive team and Smoak probably shouldn’t be counted on either. Ackley, Smoak and Montero probably don’t have a ton of value, but moving them for a reliever would probably be better than giving them any playing time on a team meant to contend.

Linus
12 years ago
Reply to  Preston

Trading Walker for Price would not be dumb at all. Jesus Christ, is Fangraphs in some kind of downward spiral toward YouTube comments level?

Overvaluing prospects is the modern stathead version of overvaluing RBI.

Preston
12 years ago
Reply to  Preston

It’s not about over-valuing prospects. Price isn’t cheap, and Walker is MLB ready. If you think walker is a 1.5 win pitcher and price is 4.5 you’ve improved 3 WAR for 17.5 million in 2013 and 2014, but Price is a FA after that. If you spend that money on an OF you get a huge upgrade (Mariners RF produced -2.1 wins last year) and get to keep Walker for 6 years at a low price keeping you competitive window open longer. I guess if the Mariner’s are going to pay big for an OF AND trade for Price, and they plan on signing Price long term then it makes more sense. But that’s a lot of money.

Linus
12 years ago
Reply to  Preston

Walker is MLB-ready? The kid still walks the ballpark.

Preston
12 years ago
Reply to  Preston

He pitched at the MLB level last year, thus he’s MLB ready. I mean I guess everybody could always use a month in AAA to make the transition easier. His walk rate has been fine at every level other than the 57 innings at AAA last season, so I wouldn’t worry too much. And if he K’s batters at that rate he can afford the walks anyways.

Nyyfaninlaaland
12 years ago
Reply to  Preston

This is totally a grass is greener argument. Walker hasn’t had enough time to show his true value, so because of that his value is high.

But Smoak, Montero, and Ackley, though still rather young, are busts since we’ve seen more of them in the majors. So they’re worth a bag of balls.

Methinks the truth lies somewhere in the gulf between.

ValueArb
12 years ago
Reply to  Preston

Overvaluing well compensated veterans is much riskier and dumber than overvaluing prospects. When the prospect flames out you aren’t also stuck paying $30M or $240M for them.

Johnston
12 years ago
Reply to  Preston

TINSTAAPP

James
12 years ago
Reply to  LaLoosh

I think this is what they are thinking… getting the most out of Felix’s prime. Cano doesn’t have injury problems and should hit well enough for long enough that the deal isn’t absolutely horrible for a while… What is more likely to happen in a few years – Felix being injury free and pitching at the same level he is now or Cano being injury free and hitting at the same level he is now?

Steve Holt!!
12 years ago
Reply to  LaLoosh

Imagine if they did get Price. He may be the worst of the front three starting pitchers. And a decent outfielder would perhaps vault them a little further toward contention. Not the worst way to try and be relevant.

68FCMember since 2020
12 years ago
Reply to  LaLoosh

As long as they don’t trade Walker/Zunino for a very short term upgrade (like Price), I’m okay with this. The Mariners have money to spend right now and they might as well spend it on big upgrades. The Walker for Price deal would just be terrible because it would be like paying market value for Price (money wise) and trading away a young cheap player that could be near Price’s production in a year or two.

sixto lezcano
12 years ago
Reply to  Cory

Signing or trading for some of the best players in the game is “franchise suicide.” Have we possibly lost a little bit of perspective?

Has it really come to this? We *don’t* want the best players to play for us? It is simply crazy on its face.

Who am I to tell people how to feel? But I’m not sure everyone quite understands the two-WC era just yet. Finishing 84-78 is now a reasonable target and a window for glory. And jeez, the money these teams have! Why wring our hands raw in December? Think positive!

ValueArb
12 years ago
Reply to  sixto lezcano

Finishing 84-78 is more a ceiling not a target. Once the Cano contract goes bad they will be fielding teams with one hand tied behind their back for half a decade.

I’m all for signing Cano. The Yankees offered $175M when state/city income taxes are 11%, so effectively $155M. Why did the Mariners have to offer $95M more when they have no state income taxes? Methinks 8 years $200M (33%/net $45M more than Yankee offer) still gets Cano and doesn’t sink the franchise from 2018-2023.

Simon
12 years ago
Reply to  ValueArb

I bet the Yankees would have matched 8/200. The Yankees decided they weren’t playing at 10/240. It doesn’t mean that 7/175 was really their absolute limit – just that once the Mariners made their offer, the Yankees didn’t have a response that they wanted to make.

Noah Baron
12 years ago
Reply to  sixto lezcano

Let’s just say that if the Mariners want to make the playoffs they better make another major signing besides Cano. Cano by himself is simply not enough.

Linus
12 years ago
Reply to  Cory

What? “The new Royals”? Are you in a contest for “dumbest thing said on the internet” or something?

diderot
12 years ago
Reply to  Cory

You don’t know any of those things to be true.

H.Villanueva
12 years ago
Reply to  Cory

While the franchise may be overextending itself at least it looks like its doing so for great players (nelson cruz excluded). Its a gamble that could pay off. Did anyone in their right mind ever think KC had a real shot after their bargain basement binge last off season?

ValueArb
12 years ago
Reply to  H.Villanueva

I thought KC had an excellent shot at saving Dayton Moores job after he gave away the future to play .500 baseball for 2 years.

ValueArb
12 years ago
Reply to  Cory

Next year when JackZ rolls into the Porsche dealership to pick up his brand new $190k 911 turbo after his new extension, I’m guessing he writes the check for $242,000 and tells the salesman to keep the change.

semperty
12 years ago

Does a Franklin for Cain make sense? KC improves their 2B, and have Aoki/Dyson to replace Cain, Seattle improves their CF by a fair amount.

The Ancient Mariner
12 years ago
Reply to  semperty

That would make sense to me, but I’m guessing the FO is more interested in Billy Butler — he’s more expensive and he hits HR.

Dan Ugglas Forearm
12 years ago

That would be perfect actually because they’re pretty thin at 1B/DH.

The Ancient Mariner
12 years ago

Also true.

Westside guy
12 years ago

The Mariners are pretty thin in quite a few spots.

Second and third are looking quite good. Catcher and short will eventually be at least decent. I still think Saunders will be okay… but he fits better in a corner rather than roaming center. And I’m not sold on Ackley as an outfielder – they should probably trade him to a club that can use him at second base.

Tom
12 years ago

Not to mention a RH bat

La Flama Blanca
12 years ago

I hope that was a Billy Butler weight joke

The Ancient Mariner
12 years ago

Westside guy — short is pretty well set, too; Brad Miller is already better than decent.

lewish
12 years ago

dingers and depth at 1b/dh is so Mariner…I guess we are committed now to seeing if Z stays or goes. I find this a truly exciting show.

ralph
12 years ago

If this really had blown up, would Jay-Z pretty much retreated from the agent business?

I assume this is a good enough showing that he’ll be able to continue representing high profile athletes now?

Well-Beered Englishman
12 years ago
Reply to  ralph

If the Mariners go to the playoffs, will they be spraying each other with Cristal in the locker room?

Dan Ugglas Forearm
12 years ago

Surely Jay-Z will have a vodka brand by then.

Careless
12 years ago

Carbonated vodka?

Tyler
12 years ago

Mariners fans have been sick to our stomachs since 2003.

Jack Ross
12 years ago

A great deal at the right time. Even though it’s $240 million, over the next 10 years the Mariners will show how to build a team..

Hiram Hover
12 years ago
Reply to  Jack Ross

So you’re saying that by 2023 Seattle with have a team?

chuckb
12 years ago
Reply to  Hiram Hover

The problem is that Cano’s going to suck in 2023.

Hiram Hover
12 years ago
Reply to  chuckb

So you’re saying they won’t have a good team in 2023 either?

Jack Ross
12 years ago
Reply to  chuckb

No, Just saying that it has to start somewhere, and for the Mariners it starts now and will continue to climb upwards. Just speaking the 10 year period due to Cano’s contract. Do I believe that Cano will be the Saviour? No. But his signing shows that the Mariners are willing to do something. Similiar when Detroit signed Pudge rodriguez to a hugh contract because most of the good players didn’t want to go to Detroit at that time. Now they take less to play there…… Good Luck to the Mariners

ValueArb
12 years ago
Reply to  chuckb

This signing shows the Mariners are willing to do something… stupid to damage their future in order to get back to .500 for a few years now.

They paid $65M MORE THAN THE NEXT BEST OFFER DESPITE HAVING NO STATE INCOME TAX! Cano would have been a great acquisition for $200M or less, and was likely available for that price GIVEN NO STATE INCOME TAX, this is likely going to start hurting the team by year 5.

This is exactly like the Texas Rangers signing of A-Rod. Offered $60M more than any other team despite their huge tax advantage. And despite getting 3 consecutive MVP level years out of a player 4 years younger than Cano is right now, the deal sucked for them and they never won and had to pay the Yankees to take A-Rod off their hands.

JTrea81
12 years ago
Reply to  Jack Ross

#6 org.

Steve-o
12 years ago

The #6 org. trades for the overrated Yankee prospect. Oh irony is a beautiful thing.

Steve
12 years ago
Reply to  Steve-o

Except that they didn’t trade for him. And he’s not really overrated. And he’s not a prospect. Maybe I am missing the irony.

Alanis Morisette
12 years ago
Reply to  Steve

In Seattle, there’s always rain on your wedding day!

B N
12 years ago

And it’s not even ironic, at that point. 😉

Robinson Cano
12 years ago

It’s a free ride, when you’re already paid

Westside guy
12 years ago

It wasn’t even ironic when she sang it.

MDLMember since 2021
12 years ago

Maybe she was being ironic by singing about non-ironic situations and calling them ironic.

Zen Madman
12 years ago

Maybe it’s ironic in Canada. Insert joke about snow.

baycommuter
12 years ago

If Robinson Cano signed with Seattle instead of New York because he likes rain, and it rains more in New York than Seattle next year– that would be ironic.

The Ancient Mariner
12 years ago
Reply to  Steve

Once upon a time, Dave thought Robinson Cano was an overrated prospect. Just like once upon a time, the FG writers thought the M’s were the #6 organization in MLB, and Dave wrote the piece for it. Unfortunately, the small-minded and petty who can’t deal with anyone ever contradicting their opinion (which is usually whatever the conventional wisdom is)can . . . never . . . let . . . it . . . go.

steve-o
12 years ago

Cameron is wrong as often as he is right, just like the “non-analytical” GM’s that are inferior to him, yet somehow they have FO jobs and Cameron is still a writer.

BTW, I’m still waiting on the Humber breakout season.

Linus
12 years ago

” FG writers thought the M’s were the #6 organization in MLB, and Dave wrote the piece for it”

This is unequivocally not what happened.

The reason people can’t let Cameron’s mistakes go is because he’s an unbelievably arrogant asshole ALL THE TIME, ABOUT EVERYTHING. And, as far as I can tell, he’s one of the worst analysts in baseball.

Damn my torpedo
12 years ago

It goes way deeper than just Dave though. Pedroia and Cano score alike in WAR but today MLB determined that Cano is worth 2 Pedroia’s.

I’d suggest Fangraphs and BRef look into that.

ValueArb
12 years ago

OMG, Cameron is wrong occasionally? That utterly disqualifies him just like all those other GMs I guess. Except I don’t think he’s wrong as often as them.

NS
12 years ago

“today MLB determined that Cano is worth 2 Pedroia’s.”

Jesus. How can you possibly be this dense

Damn my torpedo
12 years ago

When your mom has determined your homework is done, please enlighten us. Pedroia (6.5 WAR) will be paid $12.5m next year. Cano (7.6 WAR) will be paid $24m.

The Ancient Mariner
12 years ago

Linus: 1. That unequivocally *is* what happened.

2. Look in a mirror, dude, before you call someone *else* ugly.

NS
12 years ago

“When your mom has determined your homework is done, please enlighten us. Pedroia (6.5 WAR) will be paid $12.5m next year. Cano (7.6 WAR) will be paid $24m.”

You really don’t deserve to have anything explained to you. This is an impossibly stupid thing to believe.

For one thing, they were not both signed in free agency. Do you understand the difference, you incredible moron? There is no comparison.

For another, the MLB hasn’t said anything about Cano’s value. The Mariners have. Do you think they also bid on Pedroia? Honestly, you might.

Moreover, even if the MLB *did* say something about Cano’s value, it said it was nowhere near what the Mariners paid. The next bid was ~$65M less – and that was only from the Yankees. Everyone else was lower.

So again, the MLB said nothing about Cano’s value – and if it had, it would be that it was much lower than what the Mariners paid. And the MLB said nothing about Pedroia’s value, so there’s nothing to compare to. The Red Sox did say something, but they said something about his value while already under team control, not in free agency like Cano. So there is no comparison.

In every way that you could have been confused and wrong, you were. Everyone who read your comment is dumber from having read it. I award you no points and may god have mercy on your soul.

Damn my torpedo
12 years ago

I will allow that Cano’s true value is closer to 7/175, but that’s still close to twice Pedroia’s AAV.

ValueArb
12 years ago

Pedroia is getting paid like he’s worth 20 Matt Carpenters, but Matt had 30% more WAR than Pedroia this year. That Pedroia contract is CRAZY! The Sox should have offered him 75% of what Matt Carpenter got paid this year.

Linus
12 years ago

Ancient Mariner, disagreeing with you doesn’t make me an arrogant asshole. It just makes me not a sycophant.

steve-o
12 years ago
Reply to  Steve


I guess I should have nominated Cano in the most overrated prospect thread the other day. That he still gets talked up as some kind of top prospect (not pointing at John here, by the way) amazes me.

I’ve seen Cano play a lot, and I’m not even sure he’d be a productive Triple-A player. Let’s start with his defense; it’s brutal. He has terrible footwork and simply lacks any kind of instincts around the bag. There’s no way you want him playing up the middle. He might have the raw speed to not be awful in left field, but that’s about as kind as I can be regarding his glovework. Offensively, he’s a fastball hitter. He sits dead red on every pitch and waits for a mistake. Any good breaking ball or offspeed pitch will have him out in front. He’s mostly a gap hitter, lacking the power to drive the ball consistently over the wall. To add insult to injury, he’s also a terrible baserunner.

In his prime, I think he could hit .280/.320/.400 while playing awful defense. Yipee.”

-David Cameron, February 20, 2005

B N
12 years ago
Reply to  steve-o

“he could hit .280/.320/.400 while playing awful defense”

Ironically, that line still might make him the 3rd best 2B-man available this offseason.

Skinless Frank
12 years ago
Reply to  steve-o

My scouting predictions are 100% accurate, but John Sickles is human like Dave Cameron, rating Cano a B- prospect in 2005.

Wobatus
12 years ago
Reply to  steve-o

And ironically, that’s my new cleveland steamer projection for Cano in Seattle in 2014. I kid I kid. Maybe in year 5 of the contract.

Matt
12 years ago
Reply to  steve-o

Eight years ago. He was wrong. Cano has gotten much better.
Burn?

68FCMember since 2020
12 years ago
Reply to  steve-o

John Sickles gave Cano a C rating for several years until giving him a B- in 2005. Baseball America never put him on a top 100 prospect list. In 2005 he was the #4 prospect in the Yankees system. The Rangers selected Joaquim Arias instead of Cano in the A-Rod deal. My point is that nobody thought he would be this good, Dave’s prediction was not far off from what everybody else was saying.

Slugger27
12 years ago
Reply to  steve-o

just appreciate the humor behind it, matt. everyone is wrong at predicting the future. i personally found this quote (posted on the day the player signs for a quarter billion dollars) to be funny. i respect dave’s baseball mind all the same.

cass
12 years ago
Reply to  steve-o

You’ve never heard of Albert Pujols, have you? Because prospects are so easy to project.

But no. You know this already. Either Dave Cameron stole your girlfriend or you’re a troll.

The Royal We?
12 years ago
Reply to  steve-o

way to go dave. bringing douchiness to the world since 2005 (actually, since you were born).

BIP
12 years ago
Reply to  steve-o

I don’t even think it’s fair to say that Dave was wrong at all. In 2005 and 2008, Cano was replacement level thanks to horrendous defense and poor baserunning. It wasn’t until 2009 that he mostly sorted out his defense and also took huge strides forward as a hitter.

nada
12 years ago
Reply to  steve-o

what do you mean you don’t think he was wrong?
This statement is materially wrong and obviously incorrect:
“In his prime, I think he could hit .280/.320/.400 while playing awful defense. ”

Unless we have different definitions of wrong?

Anyway, there’s no shame in making a shitty prediction once in a while. It happens. The better question is why was he wrong–and not just Dave, but apparently everyone.

DNA+
12 years ago
Reply to  steve-o

The problem with Cameron isn’t that he is wrong all the time. The problem is that he’s obnoxiously self righteous in his wrongness.

Linus
12 years ago
Reply to  Steve

You’re missing the joke.

NS
12 years ago
Reply to  Steve-o

One hell of a trade.

Jay Z
12 years ago

Fact is, you have no idea what they will do next or how the next decade will play out. Go rain on someone else’s parade.

The Ancient Mariner
12 years ago

Seems to me the only way this works is if they a) go all in, pushing the payroll back over $100 million, and b) do so wisely. No Nelson Cruz (ick!), no trading Taijuan Walker. I’m guessing they decided this was the time to strike because they actually had the room in the budget to buy their way to 90 wins, if they were smart — and as long as they don’t trade away too much of the farm system, they have enough cheap young talent around as well to maybe make that work. Now they’ve started; I just hope they’re smart, and don’t lose their nerve halfway through. Given the fanbase’s opinion of ownership, I can understand why the FO thought they had to do it.

Chris Johnson
12 years ago

It’s not like Jack Z actually has to worry about the albatross years at all. If they somehow win now, it’ll be understood, and if he doesn’t, he won’t be there. This is what you get when you let a guy on the hot seat make decisions that affect you on a much longer timescale than his likely length of employment.

NS
12 years ago
Reply to  Chris Johnson

He doesn’t have to worry about dealing with an albatross; he just has to worry about not having a job.

bjoakMember since 2020
12 years ago
Reply to  Chris Johnson

Exactly the problem with corporate America.

Klabe
12 years ago
Reply to  bjoak

Dumb. He has had quite a while to do something.

Hank
12 years ago
Reply to  Chris Johnson

I’m thinking owenrship (or at least mgmt above him) was involved in a quarter billion dollar deal.

I do think that is a problem with trades and smaller deals, but a deal this large generally goes above the GM level.

ValueArb
12 years ago
Reply to  Hank

The problem with the deal isn’t JackZ, he’s self interested and doesn’t care about the 2nd half of the deal (it will either get him an extension or not, that’s all he cares about).

Ownership needs to look farther ahead and realize they can’t let a GM on a short leash make short term decisions, but Seattle ownership clearly is over their head here, just as Arte Moreno is.

nik
12 years ago

Amaro would be smart to dangle Cliff Lee out there for the M’s right about now.

Sean
12 years ago
Reply to  nik

Amaro + Smart.

chuckb
12 years ago
Reply to  nik

but not smart enough to get anything good in return.

68FCMember since 2020
12 years ago
Reply to  nik

I think they would go for a deal like the last one that brought Lee to Seattle.

griggs
12 years ago

I predict this will end up being a lot like the Sorianno deal by the Cubs. It will look OK for a couple years and then the entire slash line will drop 20% or so over a couple more years and they will be stuck.

JayT
12 years ago
Reply to  griggs

The Soriano contract always gets a lot of bad press because he stopped being an elite player fairly early on in the contract. However, he has had a very soft landing after his terrible 2009, and over the first seven years of his contract he’s been worth 20.7 wins. That means that to this point he has cost $5.75 million per win. Even if he’s worth nothing next year, then his total war/win on the contract would be $6.57 million.

I think the Mariners would have to be pretty pleased if they get that kind of return on this.

griggs
12 years ago
Reply to  JayT

But when the contract was signed and for most of those years a win was not valued anywhere near $6.5M, was it?

walt526
12 years ago
Reply to  JayT

$5.75M or $6.57M per win seems somewhat reasonable in 2013, but the FA market price for a win back in the 2006-07 off-season was closer to $4M. Factor in that the market price for a win has inflated at a faster rate than one could have expected back in 2006-07 and there’s really no escaping the fact that the Cubs vastly overpaid Soriano.

MichaelD
12 years ago
Reply to  walt526

My view was always the opposite. When the contract was signed I think the expectation was that there would be a lot of inflation, but there was hardly any until last year.

JayT
12 years ago
Reply to  JayT

Sure, wins cost less in 2006, but you take inflation into account when signing a player. This year Soriano was a three win player that cost $17 million, that’s pretty much right on. In his first year he was a six win player that cost $17 million (actually I think it was backloaded a bit, and he only cost like $10 million that first year, but going by AAV is good enough for our purposes), which was a huge value.

I agree that Soriano was overpaid a bit, almost entirely due to a few injury riddled years, but there’s just no way you can call him a massive overpay.

Dave
12 years ago

It’s funny to me how upset some of these Mariners fans are that their team just signed one of the best players in baseball

Mr. X
12 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Right. In the past ten sesaons only 3 Mariners have ever matched Cano’s career .368 wOBA in a single season. They’re about to get offense they literally haven’t seen in a decade.

B N
12 years ago
Reply to  Mr. X

Unless Cano pulls a Richie Sexson and can’t hit nearly as well in Safeco, of course. Doubtable though, as he’s hit well there historically.

NS
12 years ago
Reply to  B N

Sexson put up a 144 wRC+ with 44 HRs in Safeco. His decline was not park-related.

Safeco is also not as tough on lefties as it is on righties.

NS
12 years ago
Reply to  B N

*39 HRs

Nathaniel Dawson
12 years ago
Reply to  B N

Almost no hitter hits as well in Safeco as other places, so that doesn’t even matter.

randhyllcho
12 years ago
Reply to  Mr. X

John Jaso beat that two years ago, for basically free…Nobody produces consistent numbers at Safeco though that’s the biggest issue that I have with this deal. He’s a good addition but at way too steep a price tag. And his production is going to be offset by the rest of the garbage that trots onto the field with him. Our outfield cost us about 100 runs last year, or it cost us Mike Trout, adding Cano is a awesome feat but I still don’t see .500 in our future.

crapshoot
12 years ago
Reply to  Dave

They don’t object to the player; they object to his price tag.

Dave
12 years ago
Reply to  crapshoot

Obviously. It’s a sign of the times. Fans are savvy enough these days to take the long view and see the benefits and drawbacks of every deal.

That being said, as Cameron says: the Mariners are a better team today than they were yesterday. Isn’t that worth something?

crapshoot
12 years ago
Reply to  Dave

It’s worth something, sure. What it isn’t worth is 240 million dollars.

Westside guy
12 years ago
Reply to  crapshoot

I’m a Mariners fan, and while I think this was an overpay… like last year, it doesn’t make sense to judge the signing in isolation. Let’s see what Jack Z does for the rest of the off-season, then decide whether it was smart (or at least defensible).

Last off season, I didn’t object to signing Mike Morse – in isolation. I didn’t object to signing Raul Ibañez in isolation. Or Jason Bay. What I objected to was constructing a roster with five guys who only made sense at 1B or DH.

68FCMember since 2020
12 years ago
Reply to  Westside guy

Thank you, I totally agree, though I did object to trading for Mike Morse since it cost us our best hitter in Jaso.

Klabe
12 years ago
Reply to  Westside guy

Overpay? It’s not our money. Who cares the team is finally punishing themselves financially for the teams poor play? This is a min/max, the team is finally spending to maximize Felix before he gets old. Robinson Cano is a Mariner, how can you not be happy about this? Don’t you want to see a player of that calibre in Seattle?

BIP
12 years ago
Reply to  Westside guy

No one cares about the owner’s money. But as long as the team has a budget, how well the money is spent is always going to be relevant. There’s a good argument to be made that the Mariners could have spent this money for an equal or better return that also didn’t come with long-term consequences. It’s all about the opportunity cost.

Bill
12 years ago
Reply to  Dave

I totally agree with you. The Mariners have been awful for the past ten years. They finally land a star player and people are still negative about it. The Mariners also have two of the most influential writers covering them, so that leads people to freak out whenever the Mariners do anything.

ValueArb
12 years ago
Reply to  Bill

Downside is this signing will help turn that 10 years of awful into 20 years of awful, upside is that it will turn 10 years of awful into 18 years of awful with 2 good years sandwiched in between to get Jack Z an extension. Oh, sorry, thats the upside for Jack Z.

Damn my torpedo
12 years ago
Reply to  Dave

That’s not funny, they’re simply defending their team.

What’s really funny is reading Yankee blogs today and their description of Cano as a turd who was nothing special, and he dogged it to 1st base too often, and they will boo. All because he demanded the same overpay that other True Yankees™ got. Funny as hell.

Eminor3rd
12 years ago

Just have fun with it

McExpos
12 years ago

If the Mariners sign Cano and call it an offseason, this is a disaster.

But, if the Mariners decide that they’re going to leverage their regional monopoly into a financial competitive advantage, then we could see the beginning of a new blueprint for success in Seattle that focuses more on money than talent acquisition. It’s not the ideal way to win – and it’s not a “feel good” way to win – but I think that the Mariners certainly have the resources to make it happen.

With the increased optimism regarding Cano’s projections, the potential of inflation raising the $/WAR even more in the next decade, and the ability of teams to win with big contracts (Zito) or shed them if needed (Wells, Fielder), I think this is a crazy deal that may not be stupid. That’s my favorite kind of deal.

ValueArb
12 years ago
Reply to  McExpos

Yea, I remember when people said the A-Rod deal was crazy and who go the last laugh there?

Dayton Moore
12 years ago

What a dumbass move!

Spit Ball
12 years ago

Dave, Thanks to both Jeff and yourself for putting in so much work this week during all these crazy deals. I hope this works out for you Mariners fans.

Bookbook
12 years ago

I think this is a play for 2015, with the hope that enough of Miller, Walker, Pederson,Zunino, Paxton, and Hultzen are able to provide a base of support for a championship team. There aren’t any good FAs next year, on a Cano scale.

BirdoInBoston
12 years ago
Reply to  Bookbook

I agree. They’re going to have a pretty stout rotation with some maturing prospects around them.

Hopefully those prospects don’t play out the way Ackley and Franklin have thus far. Perhaps they’ll get something in return for Franklin…?

Nathaniel Dawson
12 years ago
Reply to  Bookbook

Franklin? He was actually pretty impressive in his first go around in the big leagues at the age of 22. Really solid track record in the minors, too, which suggests that it’s not a fluke.

dustin
12 years ago

It seems that Franklin will probably move to another team as a result of Cano’s signing.

Shankbone
12 years ago

If you’re gonna roll the bones, you have to like this number: in the last 7 years, Cano has missed a total of 14 MLB games. 160, 159, 161, 160, 159, 161 and 160. That’s pretty sweet.

Still a ton of money for a 2B who’s 31 already. But now you got position scarcity advantage at a good spot, and you got an ace. That’s something to build on.

rk
12 years ago
Reply to  Shankbone

that’s impressive. I wonder if not missing time is as predictive of lower injury risk as missing time on the DL is for higher injury risk.

Damn my torpedo
12 years ago
Reply to  Shankbone

It may be a ton of money but the cash they gave Ellsbury dwarfs it in consideration of the 40% less games he’s on the field for.

bpdelia
12 years ago
Reply to  Shankbone

Agreed cano has been extremely durable. Just to play Devils advocate though. Look at this.
162,162,161,155,162,154,158.

That’s Alex Rodriguez in the seven years s before he opted out and signed the second mega deal.

So while history of durability is obviously better than history of fragility. It doesn’t day much about what’s to come for guys in their early 30s.
Ironically Rodriguez and cano were the same age when they signed these deals.

I recall saying to my brother “yes. It’s absurd. But he is one of the best five players in baseball coming off a massive mvp year and he plays EVERY game!”

So…. There’s that.

But I like the deal for the mariners.
I worry about the lack of plate discipline but similar players have aged well. Though sometimes with guys who are hackers a bit of lost bat speed drives them off a cliff.

Still the most likely outcome is what we all assume will happen. A normal star player adding curve.

Matt
12 years ago

2 things 1st wonder what the Marniers staff projected his WAR out to be? 2nd as similar as the all move by the Royals made this deal didn’t cost future wins from a younger player given away. Yes they gave up the cash assets but if owership expands payroll to accomadate the difference.

Cool Lester Smooth
12 years ago

Fucking shit. I guess this is what it feels like to be a non-Yankees fan.

That said, it’s not the Yankees fault or Robbie’s fault that the Mariners are stupid. Best of luck in Seattle, Robbie. Hopefully Safeco doesn’t stop you from making the Hall of Fame in 15 years.

AK7007
12 years ago

I hope in 15 years HoF voters will have ceased to view HoF candidates through the lens of “round numbers of HR, RBI = in.”

“If only Cano had 400 instead of 399 HR I could let him in, but without that last HR, his candidacy doesn’t do it for me.” – the quote of a future idiot writer, and probably the quote of an idiot past writer about some non-Cano player.

Not that I think Cano will get to 400 HR or is necessarily HoF material – I haven’t looked at it at all, or do I care about his specific case. Just that I hope 15 years from now voters will be using context and comparison of players within the same era as their primary way of voting. Park adjusted numbers are a thing, and hopefully voters will be able to see past Safeco/AT&T/wherever effects a few years down the road.

Cool Lester Smooth
12 years ago
Reply to  AK7007

Safeco fucks up hitters stats in ways that wRC+ doesn’t account for, though, because it just tanks a hitter’s BABIP in addition to his power.

Imagine if Beltre had signed with the M’s for 10 years instead of 5. We would be talking about him as a great talent who only managed to put it together for one huge outlier season, not as a likely Hall of Famer.

rk
12 years ago

don’t park adjustments account for BABIP variation as well? I can’t tell from the glossary on this site.

Cool Lester Smooth
12 years ago

No, I’m pretty sure their just a factor that they use to normalize every player’s wOBA to 100.

They really aren’t especially complex.

nada
12 years ago

that’s pretty much bullshit then… I thought they incorporated information about handedness and batted-ball profile and stuff like that, which seems important since park dimensions probably don’t affect all hitters equally. Apparently not..?

crapshoot
12 years ago

Color me skeptical that Cano can achieve 30 WAR over this contract, let alone 35 WAR. As far as I can tell there are only 7 second basemen in MLB history to eclipse 35 WAR after the age of 31. Four of them are among the greatest players of all-time (Lajoie, Morgan, Collins, Hornsby), two of them are inner-circle Hall of Famers (Robinson, Gehringer) and the seventh guy is a borderline Hall of Famer who had a completely atypical career arc (Jeff Kent). If you drop the criteria to 30 WAR, only two other guys in MLB history reach that mark and they’re no slouches either (Biggio, Bid McPhee).

That’s not to say Cano can’t join this highly exclusive club but I sure as hell wouldn’t bet 240 million dollars on it happening.

griggs
12 years ago
Reply to  crapshoot

exactly, it is a stupid bet.

JimNYC
12 years ago
Reply to  crapshoot

The bigger problem for me is that Cano is at 37.1 WAR right now. Putting aside the atypical career paths of Kent and Robinson, the only 2nd basemen who were just as good (or nearly so) from age 31 on as the were up through age 30 are McPhee, Gehringer, Lajoie, and Morgan. You can toss out Lajoie and and McPhee, since they both spent much of their 20’s playing in leagues with shorter schedules than they did in their 30’s. So basically, you’re expecting Cano to do something only Gehringer and Morgan have done. Which seems improbable.

Cool Lester Smooth
12 years ago
Reply to  JimNYC

Utley, Joe Gordon, Tony Lazzeri and Rogers Hornsby are the only 2Bs with power even close to Cano’s level, though.

Hitters (and body types) like Cano are completely atypical at 2B, so it’s silly to look at other 2B for comparisons for how he’ll hage.

crapshoot
12 years ago

The list of players at any position to eclipse 35 WAR after their age 31 season is pretty small so feel free to compare him to whoever tickles your fancy. It’s still a sucker’s bet.

Cool Lester Smooth
12 years ago

Yeah, I forgot that inflation isn’t a thing that exists, and that contracts haven’t skyrocketed over the last couple of offseasons.

Thanks for setting me straight by reminding me not to account for any uncontrolled variables. That’s always a good idea.

Cool Lester Smooth
12 years ago

Shit, I thought you were arguing about the value, not the projection.

Anyway, I wouldn’t expect Cano to get much more than 25 WAR over the next 10 years, but I also wouldn’t be super surprised by 35 WAR.

As a Yankees fan, I’m glad they didn’t match. I wouldn’t give 10 years to anybody over 27.

Damn my torpedo
12 years ago

Cano has earned a 30 WAR over the last 4 years and you would be surprised if he was worth 25 over the next ten?

What is wrong with you people and how many of you have your wills in order? 31 isn’t old, children.

Cool Lester Smooth
12 years ago

I think you need to re-read my comment.

Damn my torpedo
12 years ago

Yup. I thought I was responding to crapshoot but i blew it.

Mommy
12 years ago

You’re a smart guy Dave, but sometimes you come across as a giant whiny vagina.

Chaz Bono's Sweaty Gash
12 years ago
Reply to  Mommy

Watch the language please Mommy!

Linus
12 years ago
Reply to  Mommy

The only part about this comment that I object to is classifying Cameron as “smart”.

O's Fan
12 years ago

“not anywhere near the level of the Red Sox, Tigers, A’s, Rangers, or Rays, and still look to be comfortably behind the Royals, Indians, and Blue Jays. They’re now comparable to the Orioles, or the Yankees before they spend any more money.”

I’m sorry, how exactly are the Orioles and Yankees “comfortably behind” the Royals, Indians, and especially Blue Jays? I guess I could agree on the Indians, though the three teams were essentially tied until Cleveland got hot the last two weeks of the season beating up on weak teams. But the Royals finished with exactly ONE win more than NYY or BAL, and the Jays with 11 wins LESS.

Sorry to hijack, just read this paragraph and did a double-take. Seems like a lot of money to spend on any player, period, though Cano is really good. Shocking to see the Yankees miss out. I can’t wait to see Orioles hitters against an infield defense of ARod-Jeter-Nunez. If Seattle really has the money, Cano isn’t a bad place to spend it.

Deelron
12 years ago
Reply to  O's Fan

I wouldn’t say talent wise they’re comfortably behind those teams, but it does make more sense if you look at it more on their chances to make the playoffs given the divisions they play in.

kid
12 years ago

I like the move, even with the concession that the last years will be an anchor. Jack Z has tried building a team using finesse, via the draft, cheap trades and bargain-bin free agents and it simply hasn’t worked. So why not try brute force? Also, we can’t forget the very real possibility that it requires a not-insignificant amount of financial compensation to convince a FA to come to the PNW, where there isn’t another baseball club for 800 miles.

Preston
12 years ago

The Yankees finally held a hard line in contract negotiations. But I don’t think that should be any solace to them. At this point they’re in the same boat that Dave is describing for the Mariners. They are a bad team that spent 240 million dollars to become a .500 team. Without adding Cano they are not competitive and no other player out there is going to have a similar impact. Kuroda is a good start, but they need another pitcher. Adding Choo wouldn’t add that much value since it’s only improving over and already solid Soriano and there aren’t any big impact players available at 2b or 3b where they have holes. I’m sure they’ll sign Infante and others to put together a team that will at least compete for a playoff spot. But at this point I wish maybe they’d just stayed out of it this off-season gotten 4 first round picks to go with the 3 they had last year and try to rebuild the farm.
Good Luck to Robbie, and I hope that the deal works out for the M’s.

JimNYC
12 years ago
Reply to  Preston

Radical idea: Shift Soriano back to Second Base and put Choo at DH with Ichiro in RF. The infield defense would be utterly atrocious, but the outfield defense would probably be all-time great.

Preston
12 years ago
Reply to  JimNYC

I don’t think the Yankees should consider doing that. Soriano hasn’t played 2b since 2005 and wasn’t particularly good at it then. Nor do I like the idea of giving Ichiro anything more than a 4th OF role. Now that they don’t have an elite player at a premium position they can’t afford to punt offense at a traditional offensive position like RF.

Careless
12 years ago
Reply to  JimNYC

That would be fun for all 4 innings before Soriano does something catastrophic to a leg

Matt
12 years ago

Also side note, Seattle only gives the Yankees a 2nd rnd pick as compensation. Another impact bat can be drafted at 6th.

chuckb
12 years ago
Reply to  Matt

The Yankees don’t get Seattle’s 2nd round pick.

Shankbone
12 years ago
Reply to  Matt

new CBA changed all that. Seattle’s first round pick is top 10, its protected. So their 2nd round pick goes “poof”, everybody behind it moves up a notch, and the Yanks get a supplemental pick right after the first round is done. After signing Ellsbury, because their pick is not top 10 and therefore not protected, the Yanks first round pick goes”poof” as well, and the Red Sox get a supplemental pick. Brave new world, important because of the draft pool amounts alloted to each pick. The Mets and Mariners are able to sign FAs and keep most of their budgets as well as draft position. This is what Cleveland did to perfection last year, once they were in on the 2nd round, might as well punt the third round as well.

Westside guy
12 years ago
Reply to  Shankbone

And Jack Z’s one unarguable talent is choosing guys in the second and third round very, very well.

Damn my torpedo
12 years ago
Reply to  Shankbone

“the Yanks first round pick goes ”poof””

That is very good news to top prospects wanting a decent chance.

Nathaniel Dawson
12 years ago
Reply to  Shankbone

Actually, the Mariners will lose their compensation pick. If a team signs a QO free agent, they lose their first available pick. Since their first round pick is protected, they end up losing the compensation pick they qualified for by giving Kendrys Morales a QO.

Shankbone
12 years ago

Forgot about Ol’ Morales for a sec, good catch. We won’t know this for months though as he’ll be hanging out for a long time. I bet they re-sign him finally for 2/20MM and they lose their 2nd rounder.

JimNYC
12 years ago

I’m a big Robbie Cano fan. He’s a fantastic player. That said, this was an absolutely ludicrous overpay, to the point where, as a Yankee fan, I’m actually glad the Yankees didn’t match the deal rather than sad at seeing our best player leave.

Robinson Cano is starting his age 31 season. He’s a Hall of Fame talent. Let’s take a look at how many career WAR other Hall of Fame second basemen had from their age 31 seasons on:

Robbie Alomar: 20.2
Rod Carew: 28.4 (mostly as a first baseman)
Eddie Collins: 45.8
Bobby Doerr: 12.3
Johnny Evers: 17.3
Nellie Fox: 13.5
Frankie Frisch: 18
Charlie Gehringer: 45.5
Joe Gordon: 22.6
Billy Herman: 17.5
Rogers Hornsby: 37.7 (almost all in the first three years)
Nap Lajoie: 50.9
Tony Lazzeri: 9.6
Bill Mazeroski: 3.7
Bid McPhee: 30.2
Joe Morgan: 46.7
Jackie Robinson: 39.3
Ryne Sandberg: 20.9
Red Schoendeinst: 15.4

So, if you’re looking for 35 WAR out of Cano out of the life of the contract, you’re looking for him to outdo every HoF 2nd baseman except Jackie Robinson, Joe Morgan, Nap Lajoie, Rogers Hornsby, Charlie Gehringer, and Eddie Collins (i.e., the Great 4 second basemen, plus the Mechanical Man and Jackie Fucking Robinson). If you really think Cano is on a level with those players, hey, more power to you, but I’ll note that Cano is, as of now, at 37.1 career WAR, so you’re basically expecting Cano to have just as much career value from age 31 on as he had through age 30 – something only Gehringer, Robinson, and McPhee managed to do. The late-peaking Morgan came close, as did Lajoie, who played in short-season leagues for much of his 20’s.

So, basically, the 35 WAR projection expects that Cano will be historically great, one of the five or six best second basemen ever, over the rest of his career. That seems… unlikely to me.

TKDC
12 years ago
Reply to  JimNYC

And this list is biased! Which makes it even more ridiculous. If a “hall of fame” caliber player falls off a cliff in his early 30s, he is likely not going to actually make the hall of fame and thus would not make this list.

Wally
12 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

That’s built into his point. Many HOFers are still HOFers but didn’t get 35WAR age 31+, and those who did are the all time best ever. Kind of a no-duh, but its worth noting that this contract only makes much sense if Cano actually becomes one the all time best ever, inner circle HOFers.

ZIPs projections or not, that seems very unlikely. If nothing else, watching the quick collapse of Pujols should have reminded us of how difficult for even the best players from ages ~20-30 to keep it up into their 31+ ages.

TKDC
12 years ago
Reply to  Wally

To be clear, I meant that his point shows that the contract is ridiculous, not that the list was ridiculous. I don’t think I made that clear.

Ian R.
12 years ago
Reply to  JimNYC

It’s worth noting that second base is a weird position in the Hall of Fame, and a number of deserving players haven’t (yet) been inducted. Let’s look at three more comps:

Lou Whitaker: 29.5 of his 68 WAR after age 31
Bobby Grich: 25.6 of his 69 WAR after age 31
Willie Randolph: 21.4 of his 61 WAR after age 31

Well, that does nothing but strengthen your argument.

nadaa
12 years ago
Reply to  JimNYC

A bunch of people have been making this point for a while now, and in every single thread, DC just seems to ignore it. You can’t project WAR via -.5/year, because it doesn’t account for sudden loss of skill or playing time, which happened to several of the people on this list.

So all this BS about Cano putting up 35 WAR is a waste of time: the real projected WAR should be quite a bit lower, and that significantly alters the view of the contract, in my humble opinion.

BIP
12 years ago
Reply to  nadaa

How exactly is he ignoring it? He’s already said he thinks it’s likely the move doesn’t work out well, but pointed out that it’s not insane to see Cano earn this contract.

nada
12 years ago
Reply to  BIP

This is how:
“Steamer projects Cano to be worth +5.4 WAR in 635 plate appearances next year. If you just started at that level and then subtracted half a win per season over the next 10 years, you’d end up with a forecast of +31.5 WAR over the next 10 years…
Because he’s projecting very little decline over the next three seasons, the total forecast from ZIPS is +35 WAR over those 10 years. At +32 WAR, we’d be looking at $7.5 million per win; at +35 WAR, we’re looking at $6.9 million per win.”

It’s not likely to be 32 or 35. According to the research described above, it’s more likely to be something like 26.1 (mean of those numbers) or 20.9 (the median). Probably more like the median than the mean, since Cano isn’t in the same stratosphere as guys like Joe Morgan and Rogers Hornsby.

nada
12 years ago
Reply to  BIP

and lest you say that’s not an important difference, that change takes the deal from ~7M/WAR (35WAR), which is roughly market value, to ~10M/WAR (25WAR), which is a big overpay.

ValueArb
12 years ago
Reply to  BIP

Cameron never used the word “likely” like yiou think he did. He was talking best case scenario, you are talking most likely scenario. You need to learn reading comprehension.

nada
12 years ago
Reply to  BIP

Assuming that was directed to me– I didn’t even say anything about DC and the word “likely”. This other dude ‘BIP’ did.

I said DC ignored the fact that the projections he’s using have been shown, on multiple occasions, to spit out overestimates of future WAR, most especially for 30+ year olds. More to the point at hand, I said that when you use more realistic projections based on past history, you find that the contract is probably going to be a significant overpay.

Nowhere in the article does it mention that those 30-35 WAR numbers are a best estimate, but hey, if that’s what was intended, I apologize. In fact, DC says “There are reasonable forecasts”–I don’t think those are reasonable forecasts, I think it’s way off to suggest Cano will age like Rogers Hornsby. It might help though, to mention in addition to the best estimate, a median estimate and a bad estimate.

No need for ad hominems: if you think I’m wrong (or if it was directed to BIP), you can just explain why.

ValueArb
12 years ago
Reply to  BIP

“It’s not likely to be 32 or 35. ” That was you Nada, and that’s what I was responding to.

TKDC
12 years ago
Reply to  BIP

You are the worst

Wade8813
12 years ago
Reply to  JimNYC

Fortunately, the Mariners have something a lot of those 2nd basemen’s teams didn’t have – a designated hitter spot.

everdiso
12 years ago

At least maybe one day they can be the #6org.

Ben
12 years ago

That Dustin Pedroia signing is looking pretty good for the Sox.

LaLoosh
12 years ago
Reply to  Ben

got that right.

Chris from Bothell
12 years ago

Can the “albatross contract” meme among sabermetricians / armchair GMs just die already? Show me multiple recent examples of teams that couldn’t get in on or keep up with improvements because of these supposedly franchise-killing contracts.

If Wells and Fielder can be moved, all things are possible. That plus the influx of TV money means you have to go a lot further to create a payroll that is truly clogged.

TKDC
12 years ago

Haven’t seen the Angels attached to too many rumors lately, and they haven’t given Trout $300 million yet.

Chris from Bothell
12 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Rumors as measure doesn’t really work here. And we haven’t even hit the winter meetings yet, there’s plenty of time for the Angels to do whatever they’re going to do. Besides, the Angels themselves are an example of what I’m talking about.

“Oh noes, the Wells deal is going to cripple the Angels, look at those idiots in Anaheim, *rofl*”
Angels get Pujols
Angels move Wells
Angels get Hamilton
“Oh.”

NS
12 years ago

Angels lose
Angels lose
Angels lose

Chris from Bothell
12 years ago

You guys don’t care about whether the team in question wins or loses, just whether they’re making ‘smart moves’ and have a reasonable-sounding budget. We’re talking about payroll flexibility here, not whether their talent was all contributing well at the same time.

Ruki Motomiya
12 years ago

The Angels losing came moreso from sharp, unexpected declines though. Any larger contract, even one of non-albatross length/money, looks bad when they stop performing year one.

Ruki Motomiya
12 years ago

The Angels losing came moreso from sharp, unexpected declines though. Any larger contract, even one of non-albatross length/money, looks bad when they stop performing year one.

NS
12 years ago

Tell me more about what I care about.

crapshoot
12 years ago

So you should outbid your nearest competitor by 70 million dollars on the off chance that you can maybe, possibly move the contract later on down the line? That’s a pretty expensive gamble.

NS
12 years ago

“Don’t worry about enormous contracts that very likely yield net negative value because ‘all things are possible.'”

Ian R.
12 years ago

Well, the Cubs didn’t do so well with the Soriano deal. I realize they finally managed to move him last year, but they were hamstrung for several seasons before that – and the Soriano contract wasn’t even that bad as big, long-term contracts go.

The Rockies had it pretty tough through the back end of the Todd Helton contract.

The Reds struggled throughout most of the Griffey contract, and they weren’t able to move him until midway through the final season.

The Rangers had a tough time throughout the first big A-Rod contract, even after they traded him. Remember, they were still paying him a significant amount of money to play for the Yankees.

You’re right, some bad contracts haven’t been truly team-crippling – heck, the Giants won two World Series with Barry Zito. You’re also right that some of those bad contracts have been moved. Perhaps the risk of a true ‘albatross’ is overstated, but it’s still a real risk.

Damn my torpedo
12 years ago
Reply to  Ian R.

The Rangers didn’t have a hard time with Arod’s contract, Hicks going broke did. Arod produced just fine throughout his first contract (3x MVP), and Dave is wrong to imply otherwise.

Now, Cashman extending him another 10 was downright moronic, but that had nothing to do with the contract Arod signed with Texas.

bpdelia
12 years ago

Yeah but see arod was the same age as cano, a far better player coming off an MVP year with a history of playing every single game and almost never ever being injured.

If you think the arod deal was moronic you CANNOT be in favor of this deal.

They are the same exact deal basically aside yom the fact that arod was, without any possible doubt, an inner circle best of all tim will he break bonds or just Ruth and Aaron, type player and cano (while a fantastic player who is on ahof path, is certainly not.

So if anything anyone who dogs the Rodriguez contact must stop and notice the almost eery similarities between the two.

The only difference being:
1) Rodriguez got more money accounting for inflation and the milestone bonuses. Because of
2) Rodriguez was a massively better ballplayer than cano.

Damn my torpedo
12 years ago

HaHa, drunk poster

Ian R.
12 years ago

You’re right, I was a little hasty in mentioning the first A-Rod contract. He was an 8-WAR player throughout the three Texas years. One could argue that they would have been better off distributing that money over several other players, but that would be a very rickety argument – he earned his salary and then some.

The other three contracts I mentioned, though, were legitimately franchise-damaging on the back end.

Damn my torpedo
12 years ago

I see no evidence of any contract ever crippling any team. I suppose the best example of one would be Soriano, but, as you said, that contract isn’t even that bad today. Zito’s team win 2 titles, Wells was traded. Helton’s was not only a decent deal, but his team also played for a title, as well.

Manny’s worked out, as did Jeter’s. Mauer’s looks fine as does Troy’s. Holliday’s is fine, as was Beltran’s. And Giambi.

It seems to me that the only debilitating contracts are the few that Fangraphs is picking on because they’re trying to sell ads. But really, none.

calculator
12 years ago

Ok, wait, the Phillies aren’t an example? The lack of outfield and corner infield production, among other things, isn’t because they invested too much in Howard and Papelbon (contracts you have to admit no one will take)and for too long for Halladay, let Werth go and weren’t able to replace him, etc? They have a budget and haven’t been able to fill the needs to make the playoffs the past two seasons. The 2010-11 Cubs aren’t examples, with all the money tied up in Soriano, Ramirez, and Zambrano? The Mets in that timeframe, with $60M for Santana, Beltran and Bay? The White Sox went for it from 2009-12 before giving up, their contracts didn’t have tons of years but spending a lot on Dunn, Rios, Youkilis didn’t really work out the way they planned or allow them to get anyone else.

Wade8813
12 years ago
Reply to  calculator

Do the Phillies, Cubs, Mets, or White Sox have any one contract that was killing them?

The discussion is about one contract being an albatross. Obviously, if you make like 6 bad moves and no good ones, that’ll hurt a team. But that’s not what we’re talking about – we’re talking about one contract killing a team.

dl80
12 years ago

Uh…like the Yankees, you mean?

Does anyone think that if they didn’t have Arod’s ludicrous contract they would have let Cano go?

Damn my torpedo
12 years ago
Reply to  dl80

never mind Arod, I think if they didn’t have Ellsbury’s ludicrous contract Cano would be a Yankee today.

ValueArb
12 years ago

Wells, A-Rod and Fielder were moved by taking huge losses, so you are exactly, uh, what’s your point?

Mr Punch
12 years ago

The thing about Cano is that he’s a really good hitter, not a good hitter for a 2B. So (unlike McCann, I’d insist) he actually could be productive at a less demanding position. Of course his offense could collapse (as Pujols’s has) but the 30-year-old 2B (Alomar) comparison doesn’t hold.

TKDC
12 years ago
Reply to  Mr Punch

Ya, paying McCann $240 million would have been quite stupid.

Bill Parker
12 years ago
Reply to  Mr Punch

Just for fun:

Cano, age 23 through 30: 127 OPS+
Alomar, age 23 through 30: 126 OPS+

Of course, Alomar didn’t have a string of four consecutive years like Cano’s last four, but still. Alomar could hit a whole lot, too, until he couldn’t.

Bill Parker
12 years ago
Reply to  Bill Parker

oops, Alomar was through age 33. Typo.

jrdo410
12 years ago

Dave, it always seems like you are holding the M’s to this artificial salary cap that they have self imposed for a long time, arguing they should spend a little more. They need to open the wallet, big time. Sure, they need to do it smart, and they need to do more to win, but they are not a small market team and they need to spend with the big boys to win. To be successful, this must be just the beginning. They have lots and lots of financial flexibility with the current players on the roster, there is no reason not to spend and spend big.

NS
12 years ago
Reply to  jrdo410

If they have self-imposed it, it isn’t artificial.

ValueArb
12 years ago
Reply to  jrdo410

They should spend more. But they just mis-spent such a huge turd pile that they won’t be able to spend much more.

jdbolickMember since 2016
12 years ago

Cue Brandon Phillips to the Yankees.

kevinthecomic
12 years ago

You know, it’s not out of the realm of possibility that they could actually go all in this year to get better.

Most of the infield is set: Seager 3B, Miller SS, Cano 2B.

Get Napoli to play 1B: $13.3/yr per crowd source

Beltran for one of the corners: $13.4/yr

One of Garza ($14.7), Ubaldo ($12.2)

One of Arroyo, Johnson or Haren ($8 – $10 each)

Now your payroll is around 65 + 14 + 13 + 13 + 9 = 114

Here’s your estimated wins:

2013: 71
Cano: 6
Ubaldo: 3.2
Napoli: 3.9
Beltran:2
Haren: 1.5
2014: 86ish

86 expected wins puts you in that range where some luck could propel you to 90 – 93 which now has you talking playoffs.

Trade Franklin for something (another corner OF, bullpen help, whatever).

Who knows, signing Cano could make other free agents choose Seattle over another team offering equal money.

NS
12 years ago
Reply to  kevinthecomic

That’s not how that works.

Brett
12 years ago
Reply to  kevinthecomic

Who knows, signing Cano could make other free agents choose Seattle over another team offering equal money.”

This is the point I was going to make as well. While this is a huge contract, it may open the door to several of the bargains Dave has pointed to as alternatives. There was a real sense in Seattle that even guys like Nick Swisher weren’t interested in signing here last offseason. Who knows how many reasonably priced FA’s the Mariners have lost out on due to a lack of interest in the franchise. I don’t think Napoli, or even Corey Hart, considers signing there without the Cano addition. Especially not at market price or below.

I don’t think Mariners fans are interested in 40 year old FA outfielders going forward. This may be the catalyst the team needs, so I don’t think we can view this move in a vacuum.

It’s easy to come up with alternative moves on paper, and naive to think those options weren’t explored.

Pitnick
12 years ago
Reply to  kevinthecomic

Didn’t Haren and Johnson already sign?

Also, you can’t just add the wins like that, unless they’re replacing replacement level players.

randhyllcho
12 years ago
Reply to  Pitnick

This is the M’s we’re talking about… Replacement level would be awesome.

Preston
12 years ago
Reply to  kevinthecomic

You can’t just start with 71 wins like that and add on, these players are replacing players from the roster last season and that changes the calculations. Usually doing this means that it lowers the added value, but in the Mariner’s case it actually adds value. Their position players value was insanely low last season. In order to get that low you have to be giving a huge amount of playing time to below replacement level players. Even with more modest moves the Mariner’s could make huge upgrades.

2013 WAR
C -.2
1b .1
2b .1
SS .1
3b 3.4
RF -2.1
CF .9
LF -.2
DH 1.2

Even with modest projections for next year the Mariners could greatly improve. Using Steamer and Oliver (I’ll put the lower projection of the two) the current Mariners project to be much better.

2014
Zunino 2
Miller 3.2
Seager 2.9
Saunders 1
Cano 4.6

Those 5 players would total 13.7, barring negative value from the rest of the team that would be a nine win improvement over the offense from last season. If they could get even a 1 win average from their remaining four starters and replacement level from their bench they’d be looking at a huge improvement over last season. I also don’t think it’s unreasonable to think that the starting rotation could improve next season with Walker and Paxton replacing the likes of Aaron Harang and Jose Saunders. They need to make a lot of moves. Adding two OFers, a DH (possibly a 1b too) and another SP is a lot, but it could be done and anyone who gives positive value is already an improvement over last season.

Preston
12 years ago
Reply to  Preston

Obviously Jose was a typo, I was just trying to make boring Joe Saunders more exciting.

Joel
12 years ago

As a non-Mariner fan who watches Mariners games, I like the move. It will make the team infinitely more watchable.

The thing about the Mariners being so terrible is that their roster can be easily upgraded at several positions. They don’t need to sign Mike Napoli for a significant upgrade at first base. They don’t even need Corey Hart. If they were to sign James Loney, that would be a huge Smoak upgrade.

Mike Zunino could pull through at catcher. The projection systems here seem to love him. If he even lives up to half his expected performance, that’s a win better than Shoppach.

Their outfield has been so bad that even a mediocrity like Nate McLouth would be a huge upgrade.

A worst-to-first performance is improbable, but I don’t blame the M’s for tying.

Matthew TobinMember since 2016
12 years ago
Reply to  Joel

I think the majority of people problem is that the value Cano will add over Franklin will be less than the value Ellsbury would provide over their current outfield. In deciding value, you have to say consider what you are getting and what you already have.

Joel
12 years ago
Reply to  Matthew Tobin

I agree with that sentiment, but the market shifted when Ellsbury signed.

Matthew TobinMember since 2016
12 years ago

The problem I have with the signing:

He plays 2nd base. It is hard to imagine he’ll stick there from the duration of the contract due to defensive decline. But that is where his value comes from.

He’ll suffer power loss. Moving from a home field with a HR park factor of 114 to one with a park factor of 96. As with a lot of lefties, he was worth more to the Yankees then anyone else for this reason.

It doesn’t make sense for the future. Nick Franklin is still 22,quite good, and cost controlled. The Mariners look to have a strong rotation with Felix and Iwakuma headlining and young high ceiling talent like Walker,Ramirez,Hultzen, and Paxton. But the offense has a ton of holes. They should have taken a lesson from the 2013 Red Sox by making smaller upgrades all around the diamond rather than a big splash,especially when Cano makes less sense than nearly anyone else on the market. I’d would have rather seen Napoli,Chris Young, and another pitcher for the price.

Dingbat
12 years ago
Reply to  Matthew Tobin

“He plays 2nd base. It is hard to imagine he’ll stick there from the duration of the contract due to defensive decline. But that is where his value comes from.”

Incorrect. According to his player page, over his career, he’s accumulated 176.2 runs of “Offense,” and -10.4 runs of “Defense,” which accounts for both his fielding and the value of the position he plays. Cano’s value is from his hitting.

Nick Franklin is young and cheap, but he’s not “quite good” right now. He gave the team 0.4 WAR last season while striking out at a 27.4% rate. He was a well-regarded prospect, but so was Dustin Ackley, and he hasn’t shown any improvement in his three MLB seasons. Franklin still could be very good, and the Mariners might regret it if he turns into a superstar for another team, but the odds of that happening appear to be rather long right now.

Matthew TobinMember since 2016
12 years ago
Reply to  Dingbat

I’m suggesting that as Cano ages, his defense will get worse. There will probably be a point when he’ll generate very poor defensive numbers where you could have to move him. Which begins to defeat the point. The reason guys like Cano or Tulo are so valuable is that they provide big bats at positions where they are rare. If Cano was a first basemen, he would still be good, but he wouldn’t be really special.

Nick Franklin is 22 and probably won’t be a superstar. But I think he’ll be decent. Maybe a Kyle Seager type. So wouldn’t it be better to sign Ellsbury for a lot less in a place where you have no talent? Assume Franklin could be a 3 WAR player and Cano is around a 6 WAR player. No assume Ellsbury is a 5 WAR player and the Mariners CF is around replacement level(hint…they are). Cano would only be worth around 3 WAR to you. Ellsbury would be worth a full 5 WAR.

I’m just trying to to simply say if Franklin can be better than replacement level, it would have been a better move to sign Ellsbury because the Mariners outfield is so bad.

Wade8813
12 years ago
Reply to  Matthew Tobin

How much more would the Mariners have had to pay Ellsbury for him to come here?

But even just looking at the contracts as-is, I like the Cano signing more than the Ellsbury one. Ellsbury has played in 150 or more games only twice in his career. Cano has played in 150 or more games (actually 159 or more games) every season since 2007.

Cool Lester Smooth
12 years ago
Reply to  Matthew Tobin

Splits are a thing that exist. You just have to click on the “splits” tab.

If you do so, you might notice that Cano has performed almost identically away as he has at home over his career.

This isn’t Dustin “My pop-ups are doubles at Fenway” Pedroia, here.

yep
12 years ago

Solid, smart, and empire building. The M’s now have 3 all stars on the roster. If they add 2 decent rotation arms, they’ll have a rotation to compete with anyone. Then on the field, work needs to be done, and let’s see where the marbles land. Couple more pieces and the M’s will not be so welcome in the miserable cities east of the Cascades.

Omar Infante
12 years ago

I’ll admit I’m half the player Robbie is.

Because of that, I’m only asking for 5 years at only $12 million a year.

Nate
12 years ago
Reply to  Omar Infante

That would represent a Quarter of the player Robbie is.

Omar Infante
12 years ago
Reply to  Nate

This is why I play the game and guys like you figure out the math.

Antonio Bananas
12 years ago

How are the Mariners comfortably behind the Royals? They’re essentially the same team. An ace, a bunch of under performing prospects, and a middling finish. The Royals had an unsustainably low number of DL days, which was IMO the reason the Royals were above .500. Next year they’ll basically equally as good as they stand now.

Los
12 years ago

What would KC offer for Nick Franklin? I’m actually asking because I don’t see the fit. Hosmer is a pipe-dream and Butler fits into the ALL THE DHS!!! that the Mariners are going for but I don’t see the surplus the Royals will trade from.

Rufus T. Firefly
12 years ago

Isn’t part of the idea here to make the team relevant again? To make them able to attract other free agents? They’ve tried to get guys like Josh Hamilton and couldn’t. I can’t blame them for trying to make something happen when they have Felix and the makings of a good pitching staff and are DESPERATE for some hitters.

Shankbone
12 years ago

Getting a player like this to Seattle is a pretty huge move. The overpay to hitters parks or non-premium destinations is big for half of baseball. Definitely a fun day for the franchise.

ValueArb
12 years ago

Fun days lead to lengthy and painful hangovers.

Shankbone
12 years ago
Reply to  ValueArb

Try children on for size… those are gettin’ to cost something fierce.

ship-it-yo
12 years ago

Deals that are good for the fan and good for the team owners are largely aligned but not completely. There are winning teams that lose money and losing teams that make money. As a fan, I’d like to have a smart and savvy FO (wouldn’t we all?), but I’d also like having a FO that favors a revenue/wins maximizing strategy over a cost control strategy all else being equal. Wins are just more fun. This deal pushes the Mariners squarely to having the former strategy. That makes me happy as a fan. That is why this good deal for *me*. It actually can be quite rational to be happy as a fan with a deal that is not entirely sound from the business side.

Also, the business context is more complex than just “is this our window”. Some questions: do Mariners really need to pay more to attract good bats? Is there a snowballing effect of sucking too long in terms of fan base erosion? Perhaps it makes sense to pay just to be a *somewhat intriguing* team to prevent a generational loss of fans even if you don’t make the playoffs. Seems like Mariners owners feel they are at some kind of tipping point of fan interest they need to be extra aggressive about turning around. Doesn’t seem entirely crazy even if the WAR doesn’t quite add up for this deal.

Ken Griffey Jr.
12 years ago

Now Cano is set for life. He can nap whenever he wants from this point out.

kid
12 years ago

They can even bring back Griffey to show him how to do it right

calculator
12 years ago

“As I wrote in my piece on the Jacoby Ellsbury signing, we can find an example of any kind of player or contract that went poorly.”

Are there examples of 7 to 10 year contracts that went well? The Jacoby Ellsbury article contended that Rickey Henderson, Kenny Lofton et al aged well. Neither of them ever had anything longer than a four-year deal, though. Your premise is it’s not proving anything to dwell on the negative examples. So…what are the positive examples? Any? You could say the Manny deal turned out arguably well, although he was dealt. The most favorable outcome as defined here in comments by Chris from Bothell is “they unloaded him before it was over,” or conversely “there was a conspiracy to have him suspended before it was over.” I am skeptical that there are good examples, but I really don’t know. Even Cal Ripken underperformed his long contract for much of it.

Cool Lester Smooth
12 years ago
Reply to  calculator

Derek Jeter.

Plucky
12 years ago
Reply to  calculator

Tulowitski’s deal still has a lot left on it, but that looks like a winner. Matt Holliday has 3 years left, but his contract is a win unless he goes downhill quickly. Evan Longoria has been worth every dime he’s been paid. Beltran had a bad 1st season on his Mets contract that soured opinion on him, but over the life of the deal it was fine value.

JayT
12 years ago
Reply to  calculator

In A-Rod’s first deal he had 56.4 war over the first seven years before he opted out. That worked out to $3.1 million per win, which was a bargain even in the early 2000s. Had the Yankees walked away then, it would have been a great deal.

Like you mentioned, the Manny deal was nothing but a success. The Sox got 30+ war for a little less than $160 million.

Miggy still has two years on his $150 million contract, but he already has 35 war in the first six years, meaning even if he has 0 war the next two years, the wins the Tigers paid for would have only cost $4.3 million, and chances are good that he will continue to be a good player.

ValueArb
12 years ago
Reply to  JayT

The Yankees had a great deal on A-Rod because of the Texas subsidies. The total contract with subsidies works out to be reasonable, but not great.

Wade8813
12 years ago
Reply to  ValueArb

Actually, I think the math didn’t account for subsidies, but instead looked at what was paid to him in total. IIRC, he was making 25 million a year. 56 WAR over 7 years is 8 WAR per year. $25 million for 8 WAR is $3.125M per WAR

Damn my torpedo
12 years ago
Reply to  calculator

Manny’s contract was a good deal and paying Arod $25.2m for his 3rd MVP was an absolute steal. Jeter’s was more than fair.

Overall, if we remove all the large contracts which went to NY to retire, there are more than a couple which worked out fine.

Martin Prado
12 years ago

I’m more valuable then that.

Garrett
12 years ago

Do the Mariners really have to go all in this year for this to be a success? Couldn’t they go all in next season?
What if they traded Iwakuma/Ackley for Polanco
and Franklin/Paxton for Springer
That would give them a pretty competitive team for the next half decade while keeping Felix/Walker/hultzen together. Would the Astros and Pirates go for a deal like that? Maybe

Plucky
12 years ago
Reply to  Garrett

I can tell you with apprx 95% confidence that the Astros would not go for that deal.

Wade8813
12 years ago
Reply to  Garrett

Trading Iwakuma for Polanco would be the stupidest move ever for the Mariners. Why would we trade a 32 year old who was 3rd in the CY race this year for a guy who’s 38 and hasn’t been particularly productive the last few years?

Plucky
12 years ago
Reply to  Wade8813

he’s referring to Gregory, not Placido. Doubt the Bucs would do that either

Wade8813
12 years ago
Reply to  Plucky

Oops, yeah. Just realized there was another Polanco floating around. I’m not as up to date on minor leaguers as I should be.

kid
12 years ago

A few thoughts on why this Contract has a good shot at being better than many of the megadeals we’ve seen in recent years:

1) Physique/Durability – Cano seems to be a strong, compact, in-shape athlete, as evidenced by both a) His physical appearance and b) his games played (rarely misses one due to injury). This is in stark contrast to recent signings like Fielder (don’t even need to explain that one), Hamilton (who was seemingly always on the DL and held together w/duct tape) and Pujols (who we all knew was battling chronic issues even in his later Cardinals’ days). That said, a guy like Cano has to be damn close to the model for selecting an athlete who *should* age well.

2) Skillset – Cano’s set of skills is highly desirable: Strong contact rate , slight GB tendency (typically higher BA and BABIP, which is nice in that park), low strikeout rate, and good power (14% HR/FB). The only real criticisms of his batting profile are that you wish he’d maybe take a few more walks (6% career) and maybe have a touch more power (But Safeco, like NYS, also has a very nice RF porch). But again, if the M’s were gonna sign a guy, at least they avoided a whiff-machine like a Fielder or Hamilton and went with a guy whose batting skills should age with grace instead of simply falling off of a cliff.

Mike610
12 years ago
Reply to  kid

Busy morning?

The Wil Myers Trade Dead Horse
12 years ago

OW! OW! Stop beating me!!

John Elway
12 years ago

Anything lately can spur folks to trot that out yet again.

Time to send that meme to the glue factory.

Just neighin’

some SABRists
12 years ago

why? You are a valuable data point which argues against trading away top-tier prospects for short-term gain.

We’ll stop beating you when you cease to be useful, and not before.

Phil
12 years ago

Is it a foregone conclusion that it’s Franklin, and not Miller, who is the likely trade candidate? If Franklin can handle SS*, one can make the argument that Miller would yield a better return.

*questionable assumption

Plucky
12 years ago

Trolling Astros fan here is happy the rest of the division will have a small nation’s GDP worth of dead money when they hit their stride in 2-3 years

Wade8813
12 years ago
Reply to  Plucky

You think Cano’s going to be dead money in 2-3 years? Wow, that’s pretty fast…

Plucky
12 years ago
Reply to  Wade8813

I think Cano will slip to under-performing the salary in year 4. I’m thinking Chase Utley but with worse D at $9m/year more. The main reason I think he gets less valuable sooner than ZIPS is that I have trouble imagining him at age 34 being anything other than a big liability in the field. I know advanced fielding metrics kind like him, but I don’t see it lasting into his mid 30s. Years 6-10 will be the real dead money, and that’s still a lot

For the entire division though, I’m also including Hamilton, Pujols, and Fielder

Ed
12 years ago

With Baseball salaries growing at 10% per year, Cano’s last year with be worth 9,253,038.94 in today’s money…how does that look?

Careless
12 years ago
Reply to  Ed

10 million for a guy who probably would be worse than replacement if he saw the field? Not good.

Rockstar Parking
12 years ago

A lot of the analysis and commentary here is so incredibly short-sighted. Even after adding this “albatross” contract, the M’s payroll is around $65 million, give or take. That leaves $30 million form last years stated budget, which we have no reason to believe is this year’s budget limit. The M’s budget has gone as high as $118 million, and that was years ago, and does not even consider the additional $26 million from the national tv contract and whatever additional money will be available from the $2billion RSN deal. Why would we assume the M’s have set a arbitrary limit to their spending already? They could easilty increase their annual payroll by $50-60 million this year and still be quite comfortable. There are many players who are still available who could improve their win total by many, many games next year. And this doesn’t even take into account the fact that there is still much room for improvement from the likes of Zunino, Walker, Paxton, Miller, and to a lesser extent Seager, Ackley, and Saunders are young and talented enough to still improve. Not saying all of this will happen, but not all of this needs to happen for the M’s to be significantly improved next year.

Dave had a post on USSM stating that the M’s could either sign Cano, trade Walker+ for Price, trade Franklin for Billy Butler, and then some smaller filler moves. Alternatively, they could trade for Kemp, sign Napoli and Garza and then smaller filler moves. I say, there is no reason to believe that the M’s couldn’t do some of both. Signing Cano does not prevent them from signing a Garza or Jimenez (likely same annual salary, while keeping Walker), signing a Napoli, or trading for a Butler.

Stating that $240 million could have been spent better completely ignores that fact that spending $20-24 million for one player (Cano’s 2014 salary), still leaves the M’s with massive payroll flexibility this year and they still have a ton of trade assets. There is no reason signing Cano would prevent the M’s from doing all of the other smaller moves that have been proposed for the M’s that would have been “smarter”.

The M’s really were the sleeping giant, and thinking their hands are now tied is simply short sighted and foolish.

The blob
12 years ago

This is a very good analysis but you can’t fully understand these kind of deals looking only at it from the baseball analysis, per se.

You also have to look at it from the profit/business analysis, which is, do the Mariners believe that this contract can make them more profitable as a business at the margins over the course of the contract period, as opposed to alternative uses of the payroll dollars?

Will Cano put additional fannies in the seats? The Mariners must think so.

Marsupilami
12 years ago

People, Mariners fans in particular, are expressing anger toward Dave Cameron because he has offered an even-handed if negative-leaning assessment of this deal. It’s as if Cameron’s opinion can negatively affect Robinson Cano’s performance, or that Mariners fans are so insecure about their team and this contract, criticism of any kind must be vehemently denied and the person making the criticism must be insulted and shamed.

(… and since we’re all Rime of the Ancient Mariner crazy, I couldn’t help but think of this …

Operative: That girl will rain destruction down on you and your ship. She is an albatross, Captain.

Malcolm Reynolds: Way I remember it, albatross was a ship’s good luck, ’til some idiot killed it.

Malcolm Reynolds: [to Inara] Yes, I’ve read a poem. Try not to faint.)

bothdakotas
12 years ago

Now if today also included a surprise “i’m returning to lookout landing” post by Jeff Sullivan, it would feel like felix-day, everyday!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQmBXEZEYtg

but seriously Jeff, now that the Mariners aren’t soul-crushing, please return.

1L0V3NUM83R5
12 years ago

Introduction at Thursday’s meeting:
Jack Z…Jay Z
Jay Z…Jack Z

Matthew TobinMember since 2016
12 years ago

I think part of the disgust is that the Mariners would have been better signing Ellsbury or Choo because the OF is replacement level. If Franklin is better than replacement level, you lose some of Cano’s value.

As I posted above: Say Cano is a 6 WAR player. And Ellsbury and Choo are 5 WAR players. If Franklin is better than a 1 WAR player, you’d get more value out of Ellsbury and Choo than Cano. I think Franklin can be a 1 WAR player..I mean Dan Uggla can manage to do so….

Cool Lester Smooth
12 years ago
Reply to  Matthew Tobin

You realize that most 2B prospects are never as good as Dan Uggla, right?

Anyway, Franklin’s going to be a part of the Price trade. None of your OF prospects are good enough to be a real feature in the package, so he would have been gone anyway.

Matthew TobinMember since 2016
12 years ago

It was sarcasm. But Franklin has a good minor league track record. Projections put him between 1.5 and 2.6 WAR. And he is a 22 and it was his first major league season.

I’d much rather have Ellsbury,Walker,Franklin,+ a few prospects than Cano for 10 years and Price for 2.

A rotation of Felix,Iwakuma,Walker,Ramirez,FA pitcher with Hultzen and Paxton waiting in the wings sounds really good to me. You have 2 “aces” with potential for another in Walker. I think Hulzten and Paxton could be mid rotation arms too with upside.

I think the Mariners could contend in a few years as their young talent develops and be good for a while. But even with Price, they probably can’t contend for more than a Wild Card now and they mortgage the future.

The Mariners can afford to sign Cano, but with such a massive contract, young team controlled talent is more needed than ever.

Cool Lester Smooth
12 years ago
Reply to  Matthew Tobin

Cano’s a lot better than Ellsbury or Franklin, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Price, whom you will be signing to a long term deal if you trade Walker for him, produces more value over the next couple of years than Taijuan does in the next 6. TINSTAAP, after all.

Also, Hultzen destroyed his shoulder, there’s no way to know how good he’s going to be if he comes back, and I’d need to see a couple of more seasons from Iwakuma to assume that his BABIP is indicative of his true talent.

If the Mariners want to win, they can’t just sit pat and hope that their prospects pan out.

Shankbone
12 years ago
Reply to  Matthew Tobin

There was no way to see how Hultzen was before that either.

Either Price or Matt Kemp might be a nice trade target.

Or they go after Tanaka. If I’m the M’s I’d go after Tanaka hard.

pft
12 years ago

Its’ only going to be an albatross at the end if the Mariners won’t have any cost controlled young players to subsidize it. Thats how the Yankees got in trouble with Arod, it was not the contract so much as the fact they have added little cost controlled talent to subsidize it, so pretty much every position is either filled with expensive free agents or lower cost replacement level players.

I think GM’s and teams are more focused on the big picture, and look more at total payroll in relation to revenues. If payroll is at or less than 50% of revenue, they are satisfied, even if not every contract is a win at a given moment in time.

For now, they are paying about 3-4 million a win for Canos 6 WAR, which is a bargain. Need to add some more pieces though if they want to compete.

Dim
12 years ago

Dave, that was a very interesting and well-considered analysis; thanks.

Hack Wilson
12 years ago

Robinson Cano’s RBI totals are not nearly high enough to justify this kind of cash outlay. Albatross contract.

Brian
12 years ago

I think the key issue here is that the Mariners don’t just have a set amount of money to spend on payroll. 5 years ago, they had a payroll of 117 million — last year was 72 million. If they didn’t sign Cano, it isn’t like all that money would have been spent on other players — it would just not have been spent(see last year, Fielder). This isn’t about “Cano or Choo/whoever else” — this is about “Cano or money in the owner’s bank?”

Will this be an albatross in 10 years? Maybe, but I won’t be surprised if 24 million in 2023 feels more like 15 million today. Annoying, but not unworkable.

From this fan’s perspective, the Mariners got a lot better today. They did it without giving up anything but owner dollars and possible financial inflexibility in a decade. Not bad.

Tanned Tom
12 years ago

For the Mariners to be relevant again they had to make a move like this at some point. Paying Cano, the best FA available, and an in-his-prime all-star is not horrible if other moves are made as follow ups.
People are writing about the risk the Mariners took, but the real risk is on Cano’s part, that this terribly run organization will suddenly figure out how to field a winning team. With such a poor GM, that is what seems the bad bet.

The Real SN
12 years ago

I’m surprised the stat nutniks have generally come out against this signing. You know who’s led the majors in rWAR the last 5 years? Yes it’s Cano.

In this market this is an eminently justifiable signing. The Yanks just signed Ellsbury to an avg contract of $22 mil a year. Would you rather have 7 years of Ellsbury at $22 mil avg per or 7 years of Cano at $24 mil avg per with 3 throwaway years tacked on? In my mind it’s not even close. Depending on who you ask the M’s are getting at worst the 4th best player in MLB and at best the 2nd best with an expected base case of 4-5 years of production at that level.

There also seems to be this notion of waiting for the “right time” to make these kinds of moves. That sounds great in theory but it rarely if ever works out that perfectly. What’s to say the M’s can get a player of this caliber when that ideal time comes? They offered 4 years and $100 mil to Josh Hamilton and begged him to take their money and were bailed out only when he (like most FA’s) wanted nothing to do with Seattle. Attendance fell off a cliff last year and the M’s had become largely irrelevant, this is the first step toward reversing both those trends.

The situation where this signing ends up being bad for the franchise is if leads them to think they are now done. This signing needs to be treated by the franchise as a successful first step, not as the culmination of their offseason activity as the Mets are likely to do w/ Granderson.

Cool Lester Smooth
12 years ago
Reply to  The Real SN

A couple of things:

1) You can’t use a Yankees signing to justify a Mariners signing. They don’t function in the same market. The Ellsbury signing was only justifiable because the Yankees are the Yankees and are worth $700 billion more than any other team in baseball. The Yankees don’t set the market for other teams, other teams set the market price, and the Yankees then choose whether or not they want to exceed it and get their guy.

2) You can’t just throw out the last three years like that. The Mariners are not the Yankees, or even the Red Sox. They can’t pay $24 million a year to a 38-40 year old DH/3B and maintain any semblance of fiscal flexibility.

pft
12 years ago

That 24 million will be worth 15 million when Cano is 38-40. So long as Seattle has the young players to subsidize these deals it won’t be an issue. Meanwhile, Cano is making about 3-4 million per WAR and is a bargain for a few years. Break even for a few more, and then not so good for a few.

Cool Lester Smooth
12 years ago
Reply to  pft

Let’s see how Cano does in Safeco before we assume that he’ll be worth $3-4 million per WAR over the next few years. I believe he can make the transition, but then I look at Adrian Beltre.

WKD44
12 years ago
Reply to  pft

If you look at his splits at Safeco, he still posted respectable numbers, and his away splits have been pretty consistent with his home splits. It’s not like he’s Matt Holliday where he’s had extraordinary success at home and been questionable on the road. And his splits at other parks in the AL West have been relatively stable. He’ll probably hit for less homers, but he’ll still be pretty productive, especially since Safeco, as stated by another user, is friendlier to left handed hitters than right handed hitters (i.e. Beltre)

Z.....
12 years ago

I dont have any problem with the money here at all. My only issue is the years. This is the lazy version of the thought process…I would probably have offered him 7 years/$190-228 million with the option for the 8th year that he gets, simply b/c of what others got leaving it at similar total money for less years. The higher AAV of $27-32 million is worth spending to me to have less time of worrying about the contract (likely only a year or 2). Still, even with this, The Mariners have a ton of long term flexibility moving forward, so its not like this deal kills them and stops them from making other moves. They also still have the farm system to make trades or keep bringing up young, cost controlled players. Cano doesnt even have to be the same guy over the course of the contract. Obviously it would be a lot better with the 2-3 less years I mentioned at the same total money, but I personally think this signing is more than worth it. I wonder why we didnt see something like that offer happen here though. Maybe that becomes a possibility down the road, where we’ll see teams lessen the years a bit to give a higher AAV and lessen the long term burden. Thats what I would think would be the smartest way.

I would hope that this deal being talked about with the Rays for David Price doesnt go through for the Mariners sake. All I know is that the Rays are going to come out of this Price deal with the more valuable commodity, and they are going to have more than 1 of those guys too…Prospects have the most value they’ve probably ever had at this time, and to give up a big league ready guy you have 6+ years of control over for 2 years of Price isnt necessarily the best idea. Its way more forgivable than what KC did last year for a non ace in Shields, but I would still have to think on whether or not I think this trade would put me over the top for a World Series run. If I’m a team that wont be able to resign Price, its even worse, especially if I dont make the playoffs during the time he is with my team…We’ve been hearing about Walker, Franklin + for Price…I think that would be a bad trade for the Mariners and AMAZING for the Rays…To get 6 years of Walker and Franklin for 2 years of Price would be incredible surplus value…

The Mariners still need to get an OFer (or 2) and possibly an upgrade at the closer spot, with possibly a veteran starter that can provide some innings (though maybe they’re good with the internal options), but they have plenty of resources to get that stuff done through trade or even free agency…As I said, I dont like giving the extra couple of years, but that generally happens nowadays in free agency. You’re generally paying for the first few years of production, and you are getting one of the best players in baseball. I personally think this is a good signing, regardless of the fact that it will probably look bad sometime in year 6. This team needed something like this. Inflation makes this deal look differently in 4-5 years anyway. He is an elite middle infield player that can always move to 1b if his mobility worsens over the years, unlike Pujols or Fielder who were tied to 1b or DH with previous injuries or body mass concerns. If the reports of his representatives telling the Yankees he’d take 8 years/$235 million are true, I dont see how they wouldnt have taken that…