(Mis)handling David Price
David Price now has a victory to his name in the American League Division Series, but it’s probably not how anyone imagined he would get it. In yesterday’s game, with the Blue Jays up by a score of 7-1 in the bottom of the fifth inning, manager John Gibbons took out R.A. Dickey in favor of his staff ace, installing Price into a game that was, except in the case of a cataclysm, already well in hand. Price threw 50 pitches, giving up six hits and three runs, thereby eliminating him from starting Wednesday’s deciding Game 5 in Toronto.
Yesterday, Dave wrote about how the Jays shouldn’t use Price out of the bullpen during Game 4. That article was predicated on a simple assumption: that the score of the game would be close, and a high leverage situation would push Gibbons to go to the best pitcher he had available. That method of thinking is an understandable one, and a decision many managers would make with little hesitation.
That wasn’t the case in Game 4, however. To illustrate, take a look at the Win Expectancy chart for yesterday’s game, with a highlight on the point at which Price was summoned from the bullpen:
After Robinson Chirinos singled to center with one out and Delino DeShields then flied out to center — the former being the event that sealed Dickey’s fate — the Rangers’ Win Expectancy was just 3.2%. If the argument is that Price was brought in to stifle any perceived danger, there’s isn’t really a good case for it: Chirinos’ single was a blip, a faintest hint of danger, and Dickey had been pitching well in the game up until then.
There’s one hypothetical situation in which bringing Price into Game 4 would’ve made sense. Given that he had a planned throwing session on Monday night anyway, the Jays could, in practice, have simply let him get that work in on the mound, hopefully yielding a few outs from the equivalent of in-game side work. One could even argue the game was low leverage enough to merit that approach at the time he came in. The Jays could have even used Price and Marcus Stroman back-to-back for a couple innings to help bridge the gap to the late-inning relievers.
We know what happened instead: Price pitched three relatively ineffective innings. This was the strangest scenario, as the Jays now play Game 5 with the prospect of an at-best limited Price out of the bullpen — not Price on full rest, or even on short rest. The management of the team’s best pitcher during Game 4 now seems like a pre-planned move, with Price coming into the game no matter the situation or score.
This is not necessarily meant to decry John Gibbons’ managerial decisions, as he knows his team and obviously has a plan related to his starting pitchers. Marcus Stroman will start Game 5, and that might have been decided before Game 4 even began. However, the fact that it seems like there was only one plan — to use Price in Game 4 no matter what — is puzzling, at best.
That type of inflexibility leans toward the detrimental when we put it into the context of winning the series, which is the main goal here. The best chance of winning Game 5 is to have Price on as much rest as possible, and when Game 4 is already basically in hand with a score of 7-1, you don’t need Price, period. After the game, Gibbons gave his reasons for making the decision:
“We had a nice little lead. One thing I’ve learned over the years, is that the best way to win game is if you don’t let a team get back into it. I know what kind of offense they have, and I was really focusing on Choo… I told Price today, ‘if we get you up today, you’re going in.’ Last night, he was kind of up and down, up and down — we couldn’t do that again.”
From this statement, Gibbons was most worried about Choo hitting a home run off Dickey and the Rangers being right back in the game. Gibbons went on to say that Brett Cecil and Aaron Loup were injured/unavailable, so he felt Price was the best option against a lefty. In some ways, sure, this is sound logic, but the Blue Jays also have a number of relievers who are effective against left-handed hitting: Ryan Tepera, Cecil’s roster replacement (and owner of a reverse platoon split as a right-hander this year) is just one example. The bottom line seems to be that Price warmed up, so Price went in.
Gibbons might also have simply preferred to go with Stroman in Game 5 with a fully rested bullpen (sans Price) for the deciding game. You can’t blame him for this based simply on performance: Price has struggled in all of his recent postseason appearances (including Game 4, it should be noted), and Stroman looked good overall in his Game 2 start with the exception of a rocky first two innings. You can get a pretty quick understanding of some of Price’s struggles this postseason by looking at a heat map of his October pitches (courtesy of Baseball Savant):
Price’s trademark control and command simply hasn’t shown up yet this October, something that is illustrated both in the number of pitches leaking over the heart of the plate (two of which were hit for home runs), as well as his two walks and two hit by pitches during his Game 1 start. The decision to intentionally eschew any sort of contribution from Price in Game 5 based on his recent performance seems like an improbable and extreme line of thinking (given that Price is without a doubt the team’s best pitcher), but crazier things have been decided by major league managers.
In the end, the decisions have been made, and the Blue Jays will have to win a deciding game without any help from their ace. It’s a controversial decision no matter which way you look at it, and there will always be questions about the way Price was handled in Game 4 if the Jays end up losing the series. At best, using Price for three innings in Game 4 secured the win. At worst, the Jays just wasted Price’s bullets on a war that didn’t need to be fought. Gibbons managed based on an old adage — that you manage one game at a time in the postseason — but the Blue Jays are trying to win a series. Their chance of doing so decreases without their best pitcher available in Game 5.
Owen Watson writes for FanGraphs and The Hardball Times. Follow him on Twitter @ohwatson.


without a doubt? There’s no denying Price is amazing but I think you’re selling Stroman short, as he’s been phenomenal. Since they are very different pitchers, it’s very well possible that Stroman simply matches up better.
Correct. There is never a “without a doubt”. Any assessment of a pitcher’s talent comes with uncertainty. The closer they are in talent, and arguably both are very good pitchers, the more likely it is that you can interchange the order of talent. We “think” that Price is the better pitcher, but there is no doubt that there is some doubt.
The only thing I can think of is that the jays were trying to manufacture an excuse to use Stroman in game 5 over price without embarrassing price. I’m not sure if they would actually get political like that but I can’t think of any other reason.
I had this thought as well — it’s a little conspiratorial, but letting Price pitch for three innings and get a “team win” instead of pitching in Game 5 definitely fits that narrative.
I agree with Darren.
Sounds like the Jays wanted Stroman to start game 5 (with good reason based on his recent success vs Price recent struggles)
You lost Cecil and felt Price could help solidify the bullpen vs LHB.
It was unorthodox (I reject the notion it was old school) but it serves the Jays well.
Funny to me how everyone is criticizing gibbons who has his best starter on the mound for game 5 after being down 0-2. but no one is writing articles on how stupid it was for the Rangers to not put the nail in the coffin and start Gallardo in game 4.
Starting gallardo would have been a huge risk. His numbers vs the Jays are totally unsustainable and driven by a lot of luck. Pitching him on short rest would have been a major gamble. Going with Holland was still a mistake, given his profile, but Lewis would have been the least bad option
I think you’ve missed the boat.
You write “Gibbons managed based on an old adage — that you manage one game at a time in the postseason — but the Blue Jays are trying to win a series.” Not true. The Blue Jays are trying to win a CHAMPIONSHIP, not ust this series, and I think Gibbons was playing the long game here.
At the time Gibbons pulled Dickey, the Jays had become a heavy favorite to advance to the ALCS – 96% win prob in G4 + playing G5 at home with the SP of one’s choice (Price or Stroman). At which point the question pivots to, which pitcher do you want to have available to make 3 starts in the ALCS, and how do you ensure said pitcher is at his best then? To which the answers are: Price; and, get him some action (having just seen that giving him 11 days rest didn’t improve his game).
yep, throwing both price and stro in game 5 means neither is available until game 3. so this move works for both the short and long term.
game 1 is friday, price pitched monday….friday would be his usual turn on 4 days rest.
this is only if he doesn’t pitch an inning or two tomorrow.
If he does. I would think he would start game 2 and estrada game 1
You’re miscounting: Saturday would be his usual turn with a 5-day rotation and 4 days’ rest. The ALCS schedule looks like
1: Estrada
2: Price
3: Stroman
4: Dickey
5: Estrada
6: Price
7: Stroman
How many pitches did Dickey throw in game 4, I’m too lazy to look it up? By taking him out early, and with one day off and him being a knuckleballer, I wouldn’t be to surprised to see Dickey in the game tonight.
It makes perfect sense to me, since he was scheduled to be the 5th and 6th inning guy. And you needed to stretch him out to save the rest of the bullpen, because with that large of a lead you aren’t able to use your closer.
What I can’t understand is why he didn’t have Bautista bunt Donaldson over to second during the 6th inning of Game 3. Your only up two runs so you got to make sure you get the guy in scoring position. Mistakes like that are going to cost them.
this idea that Gibbons did the traditional old school thing in this situation is perplexing, given that he did the exact opposite of that.
Where it fits correctly is that Gibbons decided before the game when Price would pitch (the 5th/6th inning guy) and refused to deviate from that despite a 97% chance of winning.
John Gibbons is a manager that batted Donaldson second for the majority of the year (and used him in the leadoff position briefly) and used Tulowitzki as the lead off hitter for most of August. How many other managers do that? And he’s shown a willingness to use his best relief pitchers outside of their usual roles when needed.
The idea that Gibbons is some old school manager is false and if you think that you clearly have not followed the Jays.
I’m a fan of the bunt, but Bautista has one in the past 6 seasons. One. I don’t know how many he’s attempted, but I doubt it’s a lot more than that. So on the one hand, hey, high percentage. On the other — has he practiced it recently? Do you think he can get one down? Is the odds of a successful bunt better than the odds of a good outcome from letting him swing away?
I mean, if you’re going to do that you should probably go all the way and pinch hit for Bautista with Muenori Kawasaki, to make sure you get Donaldson over while giving up that out.
Didn’t think about Muni. You could keep him in at first and move Colabello over to right, so you’re not burning through your bench. That’s probably the right thing to do there.
A sacrifice from first to second is not a good idea for anyone other that a pitcher at the plate (although bunting for a hit can be ok) let alone a quality power hitter like Bautista. Run expectancy would be lowered from 0.831 to 0.644 IF you succeed and there’s always the chance he doesn’t get him over.
Also, bunting in front of Edwin would be a poor idea for 2 reasons (1) he’s a power hitter, he can drive him in from first (2) they now have the option to walk him.
The ideal situation to bunt would be in front of a singles-only type hitter (think Mariners-Ichiro).
Pulling Jose for (well liked but ultimately replacement level bat) Muni would be bordering on insane.
“Gibbons managed based on an old adage — that you manage one game at a time in the postseason — but the Blue Jays are trying to win a series.”
If they don’t win game 4 they don’t win the series. End of story.
Also, DID YOU NOT WATCH PRICE IN GAME 1 OR YESTERDAY? The Rangers have his number and you think the Jays should’ve planned to start him again against the Rangers? Stroman would have won game 2 if not for bad fielding on the Jays part. Maybe he gets lit up, but he has a better chance than Price.
All these numbers, heat charts, win expectancy…do not forget about your own eyes and your own judgement.
This comment would be better suited over at faneyesandjudgementsic.com
I’m surprised at you Dr Meowingtons
Stop pretending to be MjwW. Did you get banned from BlueBirdBanter or something? Why are you trolling that guy? Did he kick your dog or something?
Stop trolling. 🙁
Ryan Tepera is not good against lefties. that’s SSS from this season and does not reflect his much longer minor league track record where he shows a traditional split. his fastball slider repertoire does not scream reverse split either.
with no Cecil and Loup apparently dealing with family issues off the field, perhaps the Jays are better positioned with Stroman starting and Price playing Brett Cecil’s usual role out of the bullpen in game 5. Stroman of course has been nothing short of fantastic in his brief career, so the difference between he and Price in true talent might not be as much as it’s being made out to be. Stroman career ERA/FIP/xFIP 3.31/2.96/3.20 versus Price 3.09/3.19/3.35. Price’s recent career has been better than those numbers, and we are much more sure of his ability than we are of Stroman’s, but still, close.
there is also the issue of Price’s history versus the Rangers. both his regular season and postseason numbers are very poor versus them, a sample that totals nearly 100 innings. not only that, but Price’s comments after his game one performance made it very clear that he feels they are a tough team for him. there are also whispers that Price may be tipping his pitches, which might be just the team giving him a break, but who knows?
Tepera is absolutely not an option against lefties even considering the SSS. He has a 6.20 FIP against them!
By this logic, the Jays should not have started Estrada and he should not even be on the postseason roster. This is a fact that MUST be acknowledged: some pitchers beat their FIP.
made me laugh when Gibby mentioned lefties as the reason Tepera replaced Cecil. pure gamesmanship. Tepera is never ever coming into a postseason game. Gibby just hoped to pull a fast one on Bannister to make him believe the Jays have 2 lefty killers down in the pen.
God I hope that’s the reason. It’s more plausible that he simply doesn’t understand the informational value of the splits.
if he actually brought Tepera into a meaningful game to face lefties i’d be appalled.
Tepera a has a smaller than average projected platoon split. But he is not a very good pitcher overall, so his projected talent against LHB is not particularly good either. Price is more than a run better per 9 than Tepera versus a LHB. These are all best estimates of true talent using historical data and projection models.
I think he definately used Price last night so he could go with Stroman in game 5 without embarrassing Price and I actually agree w the decision. For whatever reason Price has struggled in his career in October and I wouldn’t feel comfortable going to him w my season on the line. I know FG writers don’t believe October is different and everything is random but I fully believe with the stress and pressure so high that it is different. Certain people handle stress and pressure better than others. Price is young and will have many more playoff opportunities to right things later in his career but at this point if I’m Gibbons I wouldn’t have given him the ball either with my playoff life on the line. Now if you win you can immediately come back w him in game 1 of the NLCS and give him a chance to right things in a much less stressful situations. It will be interesting tonight to see if Kershaw can right his October demons.
“Certain people handle stress and pressure better than others. Price is young and will have many more playoff opportunities to right things later in his career but at this point if I’m Gibbons I wouldn’t have given him the ball either with my playoff life on the line.”
Whaaaaat??? So you think the 30-year-old, 6-year veteran, with 50 postseason innings (plus a 2013 Game 163 complete game, which was against the Rangers, BTW), a Cy Young award, and a 2015 resume deserving of another Cy Young award is more likely to get overwhelmed by the pressure of a Game 5 start than the 24-year-old w 150 MLB innings to his name and one postseason start? Duuuude … c’mon. Price’s career postseason xFIP is 3.76 (not counting Game 163, in which case it would be even lower). His career regular-season xFIP is 3.35. He’s had bad results, but he hasn’t pitched badly. This is baseball. A lot of weird stuff can happen in a 50-inning sample size. Maybe Stro will pitch great. I hope he does. If he doesn’t, Gibbons deserves all the criticism coming his way for burning one of the best LHed pitchers in baseball in a blowout.
Well stated on all counts, Blerg.
David Price himself said that he let the nerves get to him after he looked bad in game one.
Marcus Stroman came out in the first inning of game 2 and had his defense boot and throw the ball around on him. He responded by pitching great the next 6 innings.
As a manager, when one of your guys basically says he choked under the pressure in game one and your unproven second best guy battles through a lot of adversity in game two, it’s pretty fair to hand the ball to the latter.
As I said yesterday, this is as much about Price vs the LH bats as it is giving Stroman the start for game 5. He pitched for an inning too long. But had he stopped at the end of the 6th he’d have thrown 1 1/3 innings and under 25 pitches.
STROMAN
Just ask the Astros how meaningful those WE% graphs are.
It’s not a great comeback if the odds aren’t stacked against you. I’m not sure why folks get so upset at the WE% charts that simply state: the odds were against the Royals, therefore it was a spectacular comeback.
The score was 6-2. Would you say “Ask the Astros how meaningful 6-2 was”? Probably not. Of course you’ll claim you wouldn’t. But I’ve never heard anyone complain that the scoreboard is a dumb way to judge the progress of the game. I hear how dumb WE% is all the time.
It’s a good thing you’re not letting a sample size of one affect your judgment regarding the usefulness of win expectancy.
Also win expectancy of 97%, or 99%, or 99.99%, does not equal 100.0%.
All this talk about Win Probability, how about this one little detail. The win expectancy is derived from 100+ years of games, that are managed by people with the exact same mindset as Gibbons. Not by a bunch of nerds pointing to graphs.
In other words, Gibbons made the graph, what it is, 95,97, whatever % — he’s the reason. He wasn’t cryptic, or evasive. His comments say it all, he’s seen it too many times. The best way to thwart it, is simply to head it off at the pass.
The point Baron makes is a valid one. The Astros didn’t manage things correctly. They waited til the lead was gone, then brought in their one-pitch-throwing closer. That’s a whole other topic, point is, their Manager is a Rookie. Think he’ll do things more “Gibbons-Esque” next time? He will.
And when he does, he’ll officially be a contributor to the WE graph you love so dearly. That day, he was just a rookie, contributing to the 3%.
I am the Toronto Blue Jays’ best pitcher, though.
Based on what? A sample of one start?
You have a career K /9 of 7.36… dominance man opponents fear you!
55.6% GB%
64.1% GB in 2015
funny how you say sample of one start but then go and produce a stat.
Career 14.9% K-BB%. That’s a top-30 starter in baseball.
his career 77era- and 75fip- as an SP put him in top-15 range.
Our own Jeff Sullivan describes him as “…excessively armed and absolutely terrifying.”
Although with your user name, I just might be biting on sarcasm.
You forgot to mention his career innings is only 150.
It means nothing. Look at the projection systems. His ERA is projected to be in the high 3s.
I can’t tell if you know what you’re talking about.
You note the small sample – sounds like you do.
Then appeal to ERA(!) – so I’m confused.
Pretty silly stuff you’re trying to reach on.
In do or die games WP% kinda gets tossed out the window. There is no playing the odds in the playoffs when you’re facing elimination. If the Jays lost with their ace on the bench, Gibbons would be second guessed for eternity. He played what he thought was his best hand and it worked in game 4.
Right now, the Jays have 1A and 1B aces, there is no downside of going with Stroman in game 5 given what he’s done and how good he looked in game 2. There’s also no doubt Price will be available for 30 pitches in game 5.
Jays may still lose, but at least they tried everything they could and you can’t say they left bullets in the chamber.
All of this assumes that if you don’t bring Price in during the 5th, he can’t ever pitch in the game in a later inning, but that’s not true. Maybe if the Ranges push a couple across, you bring in Price, but what Gibbons did was straight out the Matt Williams playbook of managing scared. I’m rooting for the Jays, but how can Jays’ fans defend this? You still have to win Game 5! You had already won Game 4 when Price came in. For every one comeback like the Royals had, I can name 30 such playoff games where the other team didn’t come back. And no, come backs don’t happen more often in the playoffs than the regular season. If you think it’s sound decision-making to burn Price on a 1 in 30 chance that the Rangers come back (a chance which, BTW, isn’t that much lower w Price in the game than an assortment of relievers), then you must have watched nodded along to a lot of managerial moves in Nats games this year.
There is plenty of doubt as to whether Price will be available for 30 pitches in game 5. Working off of short rest after a 50 pitch outing in a relief situation, he should not be expected to contribute nearly as capably as he has as a starter for basically all of the last seven seasons. Not only that, but he’s looked mediocre at best in his last two appearances, and shouldn’t be counted on to be meaningfully better than anyone else from the bullpen, given his limited rest between last night and tomorrow afternoon.
So much of the defense of this strategy seems rooted in supporting John Gibbons, whom I’m a big fan of, but who screwed up this time. If you try to explain the strategy, there’s really no way to do so without some post hoc explanation. This, to me, is the best explanation I can come up with for a logical defense of this move:
– Since Stroman is going to start game 5, we can elect to use Price in relief of either Dickey in game four or of Stroman in game 5
– Since Stroman is a more reliable arm than Dickey, we’ll send Price out there at the first sign of trouble for Dickey, regardless of the score
– Regardless of how well or poorly Price throws, we’re going to try to get a good 2-4 innings out of him
– We’ll use the rest of our bullpen in game five, if Price is able to get us there
No lead is a safe lead in an elimination game.
For good reason Gibbons didn’t want Dickey to face the heart of their order a 3rd time through, and in an elimination game brought in his best possible weapon to get through the rest of the game.
Deliberately choosing to go with less than your best in an elimination game is simply asking to lose. I don’t want a manager willing to risk the season on lesser players.
In general, fangraphs has to get over their addiction to the odds. According tk fangraphs, based on their odds, the jays should never have traded for Price in the first place…and that’s based on months long projections where odds should matter more. In a single elimitation game, managing based on odds is just dumb.
And, of course, there’s actually little reason to think Stroman is any less than Price.
Last 2yrs as SP (i.e. stroman’s career as SP):
Price: 7.1ip/gs, 74era-, 71fip-
Stroman: 6.1ip/gs, 77era-, 75fip-
the difference in their rate stats has been negligible. Price obviousoy has the significant advantage in terms of going deep into games, which makes his rate stats more impressive – but we have to remember these are the first 24 starts of stroman’s career, where he was treated with kid gloves to start. Over his last 10 starts, including his playoff start, stroman has averaged 6.9ip/gs…and his rate stats have improved over his career totals over that stretch.
There are very good reasons to believe that Stroman is simply the better option right now.
Stro’s stats over those last 10 starts: 6.9ip/gs, 2.49era, 2.78fip
This misses the point. The question isn’t whether you’d rather Stroman starting over Price. It’s a toss up and I’m happy either way. The question is, if I’m going to see Price pitch in relief for 3-4 innings, when do I want to see them? Do I want to see them in game four or game five? Do I want to see them in a close game with the season on the line, or in a blowout?
Of course, you don’t get to game five without winning game four. Of course a blowout can become a close game. I totally get that. But if Gibbons had gone to Tepera (or anyone) before Price, and that pitcher had proven totally incapable of getting out of the inning, and surrendered a bunch of runs, the lead would have been reduced, but Price could have entered at that point. Or, why not use Price for an inning or two, and then go to the more familiar bullpen names, so that you can have him go for another inning or two on Wednesday?
I’m uncomfortable with the idea that Price might be thrown again on Wednesday, based on what we’ve seen of him, and based on his short rest. He’s likely thrown all the innings he can throw effectively during the LDS, and I’d say the innings yesterday were not the ones I wanted to see him throw.
It was an elimination game.
Instead of letting Dickey go through the order a 3rd time, he used his BEST POSSIBLE WEAPON to get through the rest of the game.
That is the smart, winning strategy.
going with a lesser pitcher in an elimination game is playing to lose.
the fact that Stroman is probably every bit as good as him is a nice bonus, too.
“going with a lesser pitcher in an elimination game is playing to lose.”
False. Absolutely false. WE = 97%. Difference between Price and any number of other decent bullpen options will affect win expectancy by a negligible amount.
and how much has the Jays’ game 5 win expectancy changed as a result of this move?
Fine. Start Stro. No one is really saying that Price is clearly a better choice to start Game 5. If you save Price, rather than burning him in a blowout, though, then you have him to bail out Stro if he gets in trouble or pitch a few in relief. This was a dumb move by Gibbons any way you slice it.
Totally, totally agree.
saving bullets for tommorrow, in an elimination game, is a losing strategy.
considering a 6 run game in the 5th inning a “safe blowout” are famous last words for many a manager.
Damaso, can you cite any data for any opinion you have?? Well, unless you derive massive ego reinforcement by being contrarian, in which case –
Umm, actually, never mind.
my comment is afaics the only that actually has data in it.
Ritchie You saw what happened last night in houston right?
You’re playing an explosive offense, with a runner on and Choo/Fielder hitting off Dickey well, it was the right time to pull him.
Now keep in mind no Brett Cecil and no Aaron Loup. THe jays couldn’t afford getting in to a tight game because really you only have 2-3 relievers you trust and one (sanchez) has massive splits.
So yes it was 7-1 but in Gibby’s mind it was 4-1 and he was managing to ensure it never became a close game.
Why are we all worried so much about the team who won anyways?
You saw what happened in NY last night, right? The Mets got out to a big lead by the fifth inning, and gasp!! They held that lead, and they did it wo pitching any of their four planned postseason starters in relief. Whaaaat? How’d they do that?
Let’s not pretend like you’re not just cherrypicking when you point to that Houston game and act as if it’s a winning argument. You sound like the folks who say there’s no point in having a higher pick in the MLB draft bc of Mike Trout, Albert Pujols, and Mike Piazza, when there are mountains of data suggesting the first, second, and third picks are better than the 28th, 29th, and 30th picks. One anecdote, or two anecdotes, or even three anecdotes does not an argument make. Blerg. Blerg to all of this cherrypicking of anecdotes.
“So yes it was 7-1 but in Gibby’s mind it was 4-1 and he was managing to ensure it never became a close game.”
Well that’s good, having a manager misunderstand the score by three damn runs and burning through one of his best pitchers because of it. Solid defense.
Are you people on drugs? Yes Price is clearly a MUCH, MUCH better choice to start game 5 than Stroman. Stroman hardly has 150 MLB innings under his belt (some good, some not so good) where as Price has 1000+ innings of basically dominating MLB hitters, including the last 2 years where his K/BB rate is 496/85
Stroman has been better than him since he’s come back.
and as we saw yesterday and game 1 Texas is picking something up from him and hitting him hard.
The players on Texas have a history vs Price they have faced him plenty of times over the years. Its an advantage to go with Stroman
And you’re basing this decision on 10 IP, 3 of them on short rest. In his career, Texas hitters have a 28.2% K rate and 5.2% BB rate against Price over 170 PA so no they don’t have a good history against him.
lol Nick when you cherry pick stats to prove a point you do realize people can just look stuff up right?
Price has been hit hard on both occasions this series, and in playoffs recent performances matter that much more
historically speaking Price has an ERA over 5 and the Rangers have a +700 OPS vs Price.
Stroman would be lucky to have the career Price has had to date. But based on recent performances of both Price and Stroman, Stroman is absolutely the right decision for Friday
170 PA is way too small of a sample size to use ERA or OPS. Thats why I used K/BB because you know its the most predictive. I don’t think you can legitimately justify a decision based on how a pitcher has been pitching over the last 10, even 50 innings. If you did then hell sometimes you’d be starting Joe Blanton over David Price.
Over his career as a Blue Jay, price has a ERA- of 56.
Over his career Stroman as a Blue Jay, has a ERA- of 86
like to cherrypick do you?
I do agree that odds, while very helpful, can’t put you into a false sense of security. Over the course of a season, you have to consider the long run so you don’t pull out all the stops. In an elimination game, things change. The odds are created in a vacuum, and they don’t apply to every situation.
Heck, the Dodgers are on the road today with a short-rest Kershaw. According to the ‘scores’ page, they have a 60% chance of winning today’s game. If Kershaw was fully rested, do you know what their chance of winning would be? Yup, 60%!
We shouldn’t throw them out the window or take them with a grain of salt, but we shouldn’t act like they take everything into account of the specific circumstances of an individual game.
that’s what’s especially funny about the odds argument here.
in reality, the jays actual odds in game 5 are virtually unchanged.
to argue that price would have some outsized influence on game 5’s odds is actually afguing AGAINST the odds, not for them.
You mean just like arguing using Price in game 4 (with a touchdown lead!) had any sort of impact on the odds of winning that game?
i’m not the one using win expectancy as an argument.
it is interesting that those who are using win expectancy as an argument are ignoring the win expectancy impact for game 5, though.
The article left out how Price was set up to fail by warming up extensively in Game 3, in which the Jays also have a big lead. Having him pitch on three days rest after a 7-inning start isn’t unheard of, but he warmed up so much the day before that he was essentially appearing on consecutive days following two days rest after a 7-inning start, and throwing three innings in the second day. There’s no way the Game 1 starter should be available and warming up in Game 3 in any situation, and certainly not with a 4-run lead.
I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Gibbons throws an exhausted Price in relief in Game 5 as well, even though he says he won’t do so.
right, he only had 11 days of rest prior to the post-season
He must’ve been tired from tweeting on his 11 days off!
I think he’ll have him warming up on Thursday too, just in case.
He threw 18 pitches warming up in game 3, that’s hardly extensive.
Gibbons himself states that he had Price “up and down, up and down”.
It actually does mention that in the article, part of a Gibbons quote.
The main thing I’m not a big fan of pitching Price was keeping him in too long. After the 6th, with him getting through all the big LH bats, then especially adding a run to make it 8-1, I would have switched to the back end of the pen for the rest of the night. Try out one of Tepera/Hendricks/Hawkins to see if they can get an inning. If they run into trouble you still have Lowe/Sanchez/Osuna for the last couple innings. And Price would have only been at like 15 pitches and would easily still be available Wednesday if necessary out of the pen.
The problem with that is that all those relievers have generally been awful against LHBs for their careers. Without Loup the Jays would have to maneuver through a Rangers lineup that is relatively dangerous vs RHP.
Last night, we saw what can happen to a 4-run lead in the 8th; why would a six-run lead as an away team in the 4th, in a run-scoring ballpark, against a team that was 2nd in the majors in runs scored after the AS break, be considered ‘safe’? As someone noted in another article a few years back, “N=1”. Gibby doesn’t get to roll the dice over and over and see what works; he had one chance to keep his team playing and his decision was use Price. He might also be trying to get Price over his post-season heebie-jeebies, and, IMHO, that might have worked if he’d brought Sanchez out to start the 8th.
If anyone wants to blame anyone for the Jays rotation questions, blame Joaquin. If the game on Tuesday in Baltimore isn’t rained out, Jays clinch that day, scrubbeenies play Wed, and the regulars are back (with Price pitching) on Thursday. Playing three games in less than 24 hours played heck with our rotation.
Youneverknow.
Your case about not using Price is based on them briding the middle innings with Ryan Tempera or Liam Hendricks. Is that who you want on the mound on a deciding game? I understand if your opinion is that Price should start game 5 over Stroman but I think it’s clear that Stroman has been better recently.
Of course, if any of those bridge relievers get into trouble, Gibbons could have gone to Price. The point is that he came in too early, and stayed too long.
You’re assuming that once the floodgates open that you can close them. Trouble could’ve been a 3 run HR with 4 innings left maybe.
You have to win the game. And it seems they already decided on Stoman for game 5. Do you leave Price on the bench with your season on the line because of Win Percentage.
The only reason you can be upset is if you wanted Price to strat game 5. Price can still pitch out of the pen tomorrow potentially. There’s nothing to see here IMO. You could make a case for either of them to start game 5 but I prefer Stroman. If they decided on Stroman, why wouldn’t they use Price when they were down two left handed RP’s against a left handed power hitting team.
For the record, Gibbons has always managed this way – preserve the win you have. If you follow the Jays, he’s an excellent bullpen game manager so the Matt Williams references are laughable.
well said.
Gibbons panicked. Pure and simple. Like when Dusty back in the day kept Prior in inning after inning in a playoff game where they had an 8-run lead. It is very, very likely Price will have more important innings to throw tomorrow. But now won’t be able to.
Many people are too panicky to run even small risks today, rather than prepare for even a very, very likely tomorrow. As can be told from this thread. You expect old-school baseball managers who actually DO have something at stake to show even a small amount of courage?
Everyone just see what Los posted below. Well, other than that it involves arithmetic, which makes it ‘not real world’ for some folks.
following a deliberate pre-game plan is the opposite of panicking, actually.
This canard that Gibbons panicked is preposterous. He made decisions that many lesser men would not have had the guts to make. Last time I checked winning was the objective.
Yeah if you give up a 3-run HR then you’re only up by…STILL 3 runs! *gasp* the horror!
It seems at least a little curious to question how Price was used on the basis that “The best chance of winning Game 5 is to have Price on as much rest as possible” without assessing how solid said basis actually is. I’m neither agreeing nor disagreeing, but it seems like a case can be made either way, which suggests the premise may not be solid enough to put forward as if it were a fact.
I thought it was a great managerial decision and I look forward to seeing how this plays out.
was it as good as feeding Drew Stubbs to the dogs ie: Aaron Sanchez?
Not sure why this is being written about in the context of “managing to win one game (gm 4)” vs. “managing to win the series.” Maybe I’m missing something, but the overall series can’t be won unless game 4 is won? We can quibble with the strategy, but the initial logic seems off.
This viewpoint assumes that a 7-1 game in the fifth inning should be managed the same as a 2-1 game in the fifth inning, which it should not.
This is not my point.
The argument re: Price usage in game 4 was being made by Fangraphs authors prior to game 4 (and thereby rendering in game 4 odds a moot point — he shouldn’t be used regardless of game 4 odds, correct? Doing so would reduce the odds for game 5).
The point is, shouldn’t game 4 be weighted more heavily in importance? Shouldn’t a reasonable strategy (the specific strategy of using Price is open for debate) be deployed in game 4 to increase the chances of winning and causing the need for game 5? Of course, there is nuance here – no one would argue that you should completely blow up your chances of winning game 5 with wonky in game strategy during game 4. I’m just not sure I agree that putting more chips on the table in order to win game 4 is an entirely inexcusable strategy.
That doesn’t seem like a purely emotional argument to me, but I’ve been wrong many times before.
I think the big sticking point here is that many of us don’t believe the chips needed to be put on the table at all. Except in the event of some incredible meltdown, the game was decided already. What happened in the Houston game seems to be influencing a lot of comments, but the simple fact is that Price was brought in and used extensively in a situation of relatively little importance. Pitch him for an inning, fine, but enough to basically rule him out of game 5?
Why use up your best pitcher in a known, very low leverage situation when he could be saved for a season-deciding game? The known vs. unknown quantity is important, I think. Gibbons chose to use Price in a game they almost surely knew the outcome of, as opposed to having him available for a game they don’t know the outcome of. They’ve eliminated the option of using their best pitcher in a deciding game because they brought him into a game situation that has yielded a win 96.6% of the time in the past. That seems bizarre, at best.
Your commitment, Owne to win probability is evident but to state as fact that the last 51/3 innings of an elimination game have ‘relatively little importance’ seems to avoid the specifics of game 4. But you would have to avoid specifics to game 4 because of your adherence to theory – i.e. Dave Cameron’s article before game 4 stating they shouldn’t use Price.
When looking specifically at game 4 – I would love to hear how Gibbons gets through 3 innings (that Price pitched) with Tepera, Hendricks (right handed specialist), Lowe and Hawkins. Do not sign me up for that ride. No way man.
Win Expectancy is a stat based on the outcomes of tens of thousands of past baseball games, so there’s a reason why I use it. I’m very comfortable using it for the situation we’re discussing. As a general insight into FanGraphs writers, we’re actually not cold, unemotional people who think that the playoffs don’t matter or that players don’t feel pressure. We just know that these numbers are a better way of understanding the game and predicting outcomes than anything else out there. I adhere to Win Expectancy as an analyst because it’s a great story stat that tells us a lot about the game, while the other option is to rely on conjecture and subjective arguments.
I really like the Jays: as an A’s fan, seeing Donaldson succeed amid a lineup full of mashers is something that brings me great joy. They’re an incredibly fun team to watch, and I’m hoping they make the World Series. What I’m not going to do, however, is deny the tools I use to analyze the game, as they’ve shown themselves to be far more effective than anything else at helping me do my job. Thanks for commenting!
Thanks for your reply Owen!
Regarding the theory aspect/predicting outcomes; I definitely understand your comfort with Win Expectancy. That being said, the smaller the sample size the greater the deviation. When trying to predict outcomes for 1 game, statistics help tremendously but should not be the sole consideration for decision making.
In regards to game 4 specifically; I have not heard anyone make the case that Tepera, Hendricks, Lowe, Hawkins (injured) gets the Jays through 3 innings without an unacceptable amount of risk for an elimination game. The sentiment seems to be Price should have started game 5 so why burn him in game 4. That misses the point that evidently the Jays already decided on Stroman for game 5.
I’ve read Fangraphs for years and I definitely agree with you that Fangraphs writers do an amazing job using stats/analytics to tell great stories.
And I wasn’t trying to accuse you of bias but I’m glad you’re digging the Jays. I just can’t get behind basing in-game decisions solely on Win Expectancy or Playoff odds for small sample sizes in playoff elimination games. Don’t think you should deny your tools – just that those tools are not perfect for predicting the future. Thanks again for replying. Cheers.
Two other things: Price coming was determined not pre-game nor in the 5th. When Dickey appeared to be in a jam in the 1st Price started warming. Gibbons said post-game that pre game he had told Price if he warmed him up again he’d come in. Makes some sense, after getting him hot in Game 3, get him hot again you kind of need to get him in, or you’ve diminished him for Game 5 anyway.
So the commitment to go to price really game in the 1st, and then the question became when.
The when came when Dickey’s knuckled started to “float up in the zone”, or something, according to Gibbons. Dickey has at times lost it quickly, and with Shoo / Beltre up there was the potential for things to get away, WE notwithstanding.
All in all there was some logic to it.
What situation would you rather have:
A: Blue Jays win Game 4 with 100% certainty and Game 5 with 35% certainty.
B: Blue Jays win Game 4 with 60% certainty and Game 5 with 60% certainty.
If you answered A “because you guarantee a game 5” you are a moron. The odds matter. Obviously the odds in the above are made up but when Price came in they were already >95% certain to win that game.
Exactamundo, excepting of course that using Price gained way less than 40% re Game 4.
Actually, Los just nailed it. Unintentionally, tho’. The people supporting Gibbons are saying they don’t care what it does to the Game 5 odds. Since Game 4 comes before Game 5, it is thus infinitely more important than Game 5. Though they’ll phrase it in a more politically correct fashion, of course, but that is their argument. Its being emotionally rather than logically based (obviously), that just makes it impermeable to facts or extra considerations. Certainly stuff as abstract as arithmetic.
Ritchie – you and no one else can prove, that Price gave the Jays a higher percentage of winning in a 1 game playoff elmination over stroman.
Jays lost with both Price and Stroman starting so far this series. Stroman looked better, and Price is absolutely had the better career, but in a 1 game playoff that hunch is enough.
Theres no right or wrong here. so anyone trying to make it seem like Gibbons was ridiculous and panicked and blah blah blah are just being foolish.
Playoff baseball is a crap shoot, and in a one game playoff anything can happen.
DC, who would you rather start in a winner take all game, Barry Zito or Madison Bumgarner? The playoffs are a crapshoot and in a one game playoff anything can happen so who cares right? The reality of this is that we are talking on the margins here between Stroman and Price but the fact remains that Price is the better pitcher. If this changes the math from a 54% chance with Stroman to 56% with Price or something similar, these odds shouldn’t be ignored.
What were the odds that HOU would win yesterday’s game after they went up 6-2 with only 6 more outs to get? Playoff games are not about playing the long game for odds. If HOU could go back in time and a rested Keuchel could have gone in for the start of the 8th, do you think they would do it? For sure – so why not take the win you’re given instead of trying to be cute and thinking win probability.
To prefer Stroman for game 5 does not make you a moron and to make up a number for the odds of a game 5 win for Toronto at 35% kinda makes your point useless because Stroman doesn’t drop them down to 35% and depending on your point of view, gives them a better chance.
houston brings in keuchel in the 8th, they’re nursing celebratory hangovers today.
Bring in Keuchel on 0 days rest…he blows out his arm and there goes this season and next.
Keuchel started Game 3 on Sunday and threw 124 pitches, so he definitely wasn’t available in Game 4. Unless this scenario is some hypothetical situation where the Astros had their rotation in a different order.
Dave T & Tommy John; yes, hypothetical – ‘a rested Keuchel’.
The general faith placed in the odds in individual team matchups is largely misguided, given how quickly they can change, and how unique each individual data point is.
Houston’s odds in the 8th were over 98%. Explain to them how that matters now.
Los is 100% right. People that support Gibbons are suffering from recency bias (in that it just happened to HOU so somehow that should increase the chance that it also happens to TOR?) and memory bias (no one recalls all the games where the 98% team wins but everyone remembers the big comebacks). Fact of the matter is yes the 2% does happen but that shouldn’t impact decision making.
how much have the jays’ game 5 odds changed with this move?
I actually LOL’d at your scenario, because firstly its moronic as hell. then you go on to say if you don’t agree with my asinine bullshit scenario, you’re a moron.
Apparently you have never heard of a hypothetical before. In this hypothetical situation which would you prefer? It is a simple question and if you think 35%>36%, you pretty much are a moron.
how much did they actually change their game 5 odds with this move? like in terms of actual real numbers?
I would say they lowered their chances to win the series by approximately 3%. Not huge but still pointless to throw this away.
No way of really knowing since there’ll be no one betting into the hypothetical game 5 with price pitching
what are you basing that number on?
While in this hypothetical it’s clearly A, the hypothetical is equally clearly crap. Using Price didn’t drop Game 5 WE by 25%, or anything even remotely close to that.
The inflexibility cited in this article is the big problem. I have no doubt that it was decided before the game that Price would pitch no matter what. Common sense should’ve prevailed and the plan should’ve been adjusted based on the situation. I think the impact of a manger is generally overstated (for both “good” and “bad” managers), but this is an example of how rigid some managers can be in their decision making process.
I wouldn’t put all the credit/blame for the “Price no matter what” decision on Gibbons. Anthopoulos, Price and the pitching coach may all have been in on it. Managers don’t generally make decisions unilaterally, except Mike Scioscia.
Strategy changes in the playoffs, so does it make sense to cite percentages from regular season games? Something similar to the Lucas critique from economics would seemingly apply. For instance, just 78 pitches in game 4 leaves the knuckleballer in play for game 5.
As I see it, with two outs in the 5th Gibbons could be shown to have two alternate courses of action (assuming Stroman was not going to pitch in Game 4):
1. No pitcher change/change for other than Price; result:
– 0ip for Price in game 4
– choice of starter in game 5
– if Stroman starts game 5, Price is available in relief
– optimal rotation for potential LCS
2. Bring in Price; result:
– 3ip for Price in Game 4
– Stroman start in Game 5
– Price available in emergency situational use for game 5
– optimal rotation for potential LCS
Now, I (and others) believe that Stroman is the preferable option to start game 5, so the value of the option in course #1 above is negligible. So the entire equation is:
3ip + emergency situational availability vs. 0ip + definite availability
The argument against the 3ip that Price threw in game 4 is that it was low leverage. Let’s restate this equation in terms of leverage. I am going to equate “emergency situational availability” with 1ip of high leverage work. I will also assume that in game 5 he enters when leverage is high and does his job well enough to warrant staying in a close game. Let’s say that equals 1ip of high leverage when he comes in, and then x innings of medium leverage.
3ip (low leverage) + 1ip (high leverage) vs. 1ip (high leverage) + x ip (medium leverage)
Therefore, we’re arguing about the relative importance of David Price in 3ip of low leverage vs x ip of medium leverage where x is 8-y and y= ip by Stroman, Osuna and Sanchez.
And if you bet on Stroman going 6+ then x = 0, and Gibbons has actually maximized the value of David Price in the ALDS.
Apologies for the crude use of leverage.
Bill James gives his take on the free portion of his web site. What he figures most likely is that, a la Grady Little and Pedro, Gibbons in anticipation of a close game planned out his use of Price ahead of time. (whereas Grady decided ahead of time it was Pedro’s game, then ignored the fact that he was clearly gassed) Then, when the situation of a close game didn’t come up, just went ahead with his plan anyway.
Reacquainting myself with my old psychology/human judgment studies, it’s how we humans emotionally/illogically measure risk, as opposed to logically doing so. I SHOULD do it the way Los describes, compute the least-bad way of proceeding. But what I instead DO do is push back the risk and push back the risk as long as I can; never mind what that means for my odds come the ultimate day of reckoning. So then do whatever improves my chances today by even the slightest amount, the hell with what it’ll cost me tomorrow.
Found the name, too. ‘Immediacy bias’. Even if the needs of today (‘win this game or else’) are EXACTLY the same as the needs of tomorrow (‘also win this game or else’), apply everything the least bit needed today to today – no matter how marginal the gain – and pretend that tomorrow it of course won’t be needed. Kinda a result of risk aversion.
The arguments for Stroman are weak and are somewhat like along the lines of…
Stroman has a era of 1.67 this year after he came back. he is obviously the best pitcher in baseball now… Despite having ~150 IP pitched in his career.
Price is 1-6 and Kershaw has a career ERA of 4.99 in the postseason. It doesn’t mean you should give Stroman or A Wood the ball in a game 5.
Gibbons lost his balls.. the astros-royals game probably scared him into using Price. Now he can’t be used for 2-3 innings effectively in game 5.
I find this entire line of thinking vaguely (vaguely!) similar to the closer-role argument.
I’m not sure why a group of fans who typically poo-poo the idea of proven closer or the closer-role should be questioning a manager, who eschewed the notion of a “closer” in the context of series instead of the context of the game.
[Related thought: We have win probability for games. Does such a thing exist for series?]
Have not read through all the comments but here is why Gibbons did what he did. After Prices last start of the regular season, which was a poor one, he requested to be shit down, meaning he would have 12 days between starts, something nobody wants unless there is a physical issue. Price pitches game 1, also ineffectively. Stroman pitches well. Gibbons decides he wants Stroman for game 5, but Price loses face here and this would generate controversy. Solution get Price in a game before game 5 in a must W game, face is saved, and no real controversy over who starts game 5 since Price is unavailable
Price of course won’t want to disclose any physical issue as an impeding FA so is happy for the reduced workload. Everyone is happy. Plus its possible Texas is Prices Daddy
“he requested to be shit down”
THIS IS THE STORY. WHY IS NO ONE PICKING UP ON THIS. So many questions – does he want to be shit on? If so by whom? Or is he doing the shitting?
Much of the criticism of Gibbons has focused on when he brought Price in but I think the real problem was how long he used Price. There was no good reason to have Price start the 8th, not with a 6 run lead and a strong well rested bullpen.
Some pertinent quotes from a Sportsnet article http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/stroman-not-price-is-simply-blue-jays-best-right-now/:
The truth is, the Blue Jays – Gibbons in particular – decided that Stroman was going to be their Game 5 starter some time in the third inning of Game 2, when Stroman started to carve up the Rangers after Price did not get a single swing and miss on his fastball in a Game 1 loss to the Rangers – an alarming occurrence that led one Blue Jays executive to suggest off-the-record that Price looked “gassed.”
—
In the dugout later, Gibbons spoke quietly about the role Price had played in getting the Blue Jays to the post-season, and there was a hint that the manager was concerned about how worn down Price might be. “We don’t get here without him,” Gibbons said, making clear that even though Price is not under contract for next year he didn’t feel he had carte blanche to abuse the pitcher’s arm