Projecting the Prospects in the Johnny Cueto Trade
Trade season is now in full swing. The biggest trade of the summer (so far) came down the pike on Sunday, as the Royals acquired Johnny Cueto from the Reds in exchange for young, lefty hurlers Brandon Finnegan, John Lamb and Cody Reed.
As he often does, Jeff Sullivan produced a prompt and excellent write up of the deal and what it means for both sides. This morning, Kiley McDaniel provided the scouting breakdowns of the guys going back to Cincinnati, and now, I’m here with a data driven analysis of the players the Reds acquired for their ace.
Brandon Finnegan
Finnegan’s obviously the headliner of the arms headed to Cincinnati. Last year’s 17th-overall pick has already shown us what he’s capable of in his 31 innings of 2.59 ERA ball out of KC’s bullpen. The Reds reportedly intend to turn him into a starter, which would require him to get a little more seasoning in the minors.
Finnegan’s just 14 months removed from pitching in TCU’s starting rotation, so the data on him is very limited. But this limited data paints a rosy picture. Taking into account his 54 minor-league innings between this year and last, KATOH forecasts Finnegan for 3.0 WAR through age-28, which would have put him 165th overall on KATOH’s preseason list.
Using Finnegan’s entire body of work as a pro, I compared him to every pitcher since 1991 who faced at least 350 batters at either High-A, Double-A or Triple-A. Here are the players who came up as most similar by way of some Mahalanobis distance calculations.
| Rank | Mah Dist | Pitcher | IP thru 28 | WAR thru 28 |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | 0.28 | Carlos Valdez | 18 | 0.0 |
| 2 | 0.41 | Brandon Villafuerte | 102 | 0.0 |
| 3 | 0.44 | Hansel Robles* | 27 | 0.3 |
| 4 | 0.48 | Brian Stephenson | 0 | 0.0 |
| 5 | 0.49 | Brian Sanches | 36 | 0.0 |
| 6 | 0.51 | Dae-Eun Rhee* | 0 | 0.0 |
| 7 | 0.59 | Darrin Babineaux | 0 | 0.0 |
| 8 | 0.62 | Brooks Pounders* | 0 | 0.0 |
| 9 | 0.72 | Jayson Durocher | 55 | 0.0 |
| 10 | 0.73 | Bryan Shaw* | 274 | 1.9 |
| 11 | 0.87 | Stacy Hollins | 0 | 0.0 |
| 12 | 0.94 | Woody Heath | 0 | 0.0 |
| 13 | 0.97 | Tony Mounce | 50 | 0.0 |
| 14 | 0.97 | Will Ohman | 123 | 0.7 |
| 15 | 0.98 | Charlie Isaacson | 0 | 0.0 |
| 16 | 0.99 | Denny Wagner | 0 | 0.0 |
| 17 | 1.02 | Mike Hooper | 0 | 0.0 |
| 18 | 1.02 | Fabio Castro | 43 | 0.2 |
| 19 | 1.04 | Michael Peoples* | 0 | 0.0 |
| 20 | 1.04 | Jake Brigham* | 0 | 0.0 |
*Pitchers who have yet to play their age-28 seasons.
*****
John Lamb
A few years ago, John Lamb was one of the top prospects in the Royals organization. And that was really saying something given the glut of minor-league talent in the organization at the time. Back in 2010 and 2011, Lamb looked like a mid-rotation arm in the making, who was just a year or so from the show. He underwent Tommy John Surgery in 2011, however, and his stats weren’t quite the same following the surgery.
He seems to be back to his old self this year, though, in his age-25 season. In 17 Triple-A starts, he’s pitched to a 2.67 ERA and 3.57 FIP, while striking out 25% of opposing hitters. Lamb’s 25 now, and much of his prospect shine has worn off. But his Triple-A performance suggests he could help out Cincinnati as soon as this year, either as a starter or a lefty reliever.
KATOH projects Lamb for 3.9 WAR through age-28, which would have made him the 103rd-ranked prospect in the preseason. This represents a pretty big jump from the 2.2 WAR his 2014 campaign yielded.
Let’s pull up some comps using his 2015 performance in Triple-A. Here’s what the Mahalanobis Machine spits out. There are some encouraging names in there.
| Rank | Mah Dist | Pitcher | IP thru 28 | WAR thru 28 |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | 0.39 | Kurt Ainsworth | 126 | 0.7 |
| 2 | 0.39 | Andrew Heaney* | 63 | 0.4 |
| 3 | 0.40 | Ryan Karp | 17 | 0.0 |
| 4 | 0.44 | Brandon Duckworth | 364 | 3.1 |
| 5 | 0.55 | Blake Stein | 475 | 0.1 |
| 6 | 0.62 | P.J. Walters | 152 | 0.0 |
| 7 | 0.62 | Radhames Liz | 110 | 0.0 |
| 8 | 0.63 | Ryan Vogelsong | 315 | 0.4 |
| 9 | 0.68 | Matt Wagner | 80 | 0.2 |
| 10 | 0.73 | Mike Jerzembeck | 6 | 0.0 |
| 11 | 0.75 | Travis Wood* | 805 | 8.6 |
| 12 | 0.75 | Ruben Quevedo | 326 | 0.0 |
| 13 | 0.80 | Chris Tillman* | 785 | 7.1 |
| 14 | 0.81 | Aaron Myette | 154 | 0.0 |
| 15 | 0.81 | Gavin Floyd | 959 | 12.1 |
| 16 | 0.84 | John O’Donoghue | 19 | 0.0 |
| 17 | 0.86 | Matt Harvey* | 363 | 9.5 |
| 18 | 0.88 | Tyler Lyons* | 118 | 0.8 |
| 19 | 0.89 | Anthony Reyes | 293 | 1.3 |
| 20 | 0.91 | Corey Thurman | 83 | 0.0 |
*Pitchers who have yet to play their age-28 seasons.
*****
Cody Reed
As a 22-year-old who’s just getting to Double-A, Reed appears to be the least likely of this trio to develop into an impact big leaguer; however, by no means is he a throw-in. The Royals snagged the hard-throwing lefty in the second round out of Juco in 2013, and he’s produced mixed results in his two years since.
He closed out his draft year with an unsightly 5.03 FIP in Rookie Ball. Then, he followed it up with a 4.37 FIP in Low-A last year. The biggest culprit for his struggles was his spotty command, which resulted in an 11% walk rate over his first two seasons.
He got his act together this year, though, and posted a 2.79 FIP in 67 innings in High-A. He’s been less dominant in his five Double-A starts, but has still run a higher K%-BB% than he did in Rookie Ball or Low-A. KATOH pegs the 22-year-old for 1.9 WAR through age-28, which represents a sizable jump from last year’s 0.6 WAR mark.
To the Mahalanobis Machine!
| Rank | Mah Dist | Pitcher | IP thru 28 | WAR thru 28 |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | 0.19 | Shawn Box | 0 | 0.0 |
| 2 | 0.28 | Jose Ramirez* | 13 | 0.0 |
| 3 | 0.31 | Bob St. Pierre | 0 | 0.0 |
| 4 | 0.35 | J.J. Hoover* | 202 | 1.2 |
| 5 | 0.36 | Mike Mohler | 273 | 0.3 |
| 6 | 0.37 | Jason Tidwell | 0 | 0.0 |
| 7 | 0.38 | Nick Martinez* | 241 | 0.5 |
| 8 | 0.41 | Scott Diamond* | 343 | 2.1 |
| 9 | 0.41 | Danny Borrell | 0 | 0.0 |
| 10 | 0.44 | Danys Baez | 491 | 5.2 |
| 11 | 0.45 | Matt Andriese* | 46 | 0.3 |
| 12 | 0.45 | Shane Bazzell | 0 | 0.0 |
| 13 | 0.47 | Ryan Jensen | 227 | 0.8 |
| 14 | 0.47 | Robert Rohrbaugh | 0 | 0.0 |
| 15 | 0.48 | Fernando Nieve | 185 | 0.0 |
| 16 | 0.49 | Shane Komine | 16 | 0.0 |
| 17 | 0.51 | Andy Pettitte | 1,249 | 25.0 |
| 18 | 0.53 | Alex Cobb* | 498 | 8.5 |
| 19 | 0.55 | Benj Sampson | 88 | 0.0 |
| 20 | 0.55 | Shane Dyer* | 0 | 0.0 |
*Pitchers who have yet to play their age-28 seasons.
Finnegan is the centerpiece of this deal, and and has been touted by amateur scouts since before he was drafted. Both Lamb and Reed were interesting names heading into the year, but were very fringy prospects. However, they’ve blown past their preseason expectations so far. Lamb is once again looking like a legitimate pitching prospect, while Reed has done a fine job of getting his walks in check while climbing the minor league ladder. If these pitchers wind up sustaining their breakouts, they could wind up looking like very shrewd acquisitions for Cincinnati a few years down the road.
Chris works in economic development by day, but spends most of his nights thinking about baseball. He writes for Pinstripe Pundits, FanGraphs and The Hardball Times. He's also on the twitter machine: @_chris_mitchell None of the views expressed in his articles reflect those of his daytime employer.
This is why I love Fangraphs:
“As he often does, Jeff Sullivan produced a prompt and excellent write up of the deal and what it means for both sides. This morning, Kiley McDaniel provided the scouting breakdowns of the guys going back to Cincinnati, and now, I’m here with a data driven analysis of the players the Reds acquired for their ace.”
Keep up the great work, everyone!
Chris: “Reed appears to be the least likely of this trio to develop into an impact big leaguer”
Kiley: “Reed may be the best prospect in this deal in another year or two.”
Any particular reason you don’t seem to be as high on Reed as Kiley does?
My guess is Reed has the highest upside, but lowest floor. Kiley and Chris don’t necessarily disagree, they could just be speaking to the variance in possible outcomes.
I am with Chris, I am not a fan of Reed at all.
Reed barely cracks top 20 KC prospects for me, and the system is no where near it was 4-5 years ago obviously.
“As a 22-year-old who’s just getting to Double-A”… the start of that quote is your answer.
Does FIP work in the minor leagues? We know that pretty much all MLB pitchers tend towards a .300 BABIP, is there a similar figure for minor league pitchers? (Does it vary by league? By level?)
Even if the BABIP baseline was different, FIP would still be useful, it would just be scaled wrong for minor league ERA. However, you could still compare minor leaguers by comparing their FIPs at comparable level.
What would threaten FIP’s usefulness is if some of the more basic assumptions where different. So if, say, minor league BABIP was in a pitcher’s control, and it was meaningful and predictive, then FIP would not be a good measurement. Or, if home run rate allowed was useless for evaluating minor leaguers, FIP would not be a good stat for them.
I find the Mahalanobis analyses highly intriguing and I love seeing them, but, as they’re a relatively new tool as far as Fangraphs’ use is concerned, I’d also love to see a study on their reliability. If I had anything resembling statistical skill (those two classes I took in college probably don’t count), I’d grab a set of players composed of notable successful prospects, notable busts, and guys who came out of nowhere. Calculate their Mahalanobis values from their minor league stats and their first year in the majors, and see how useful these can be.
I’m inspired by the list of total who-dats for Finnegan. He has a good reputation and his work has been better-than-decent so far, but the only one of those guys who ever did anything is Shaw.
Finnegan is the prize for me.
Lamb showed a lack of commitment following his surgery, and I frankly don’t think that projects well for the amount of work you have to put in to dominate this game from the mound.
Finnegan on the other hand I love. I actually am a bit confused as to why the Royals didn’t stretch him out for the rotation this year. I am a bit concerned about his lack of a ++ third pitch right now, but it’s hard not to like his fastball/slider combination, and we saw a lot more of his change up his rookie year but he got hit a few times on it and has gone away from it. I imagine with reps that will come along.
Think it was a nice return, but I think Finnegan is the prize of the package.
The fact that the Royals didnt stretch Finnegan out is a bit of a red flag for me. In short, the Royals badly need starters and dont need relievers. The fact that they chose not to stretch Finnegan out despite those two facts makes me believe that they dont think he can be a starter. And teams know more about their players than we do.
Of maybe I’m just being cynical.
I have considered that, for sure. That said, the White Sox didn’t stretch Sale out his 2nd year after pitching out of the bullpen as a rookie either.
Don’t read too much into that. In general, the handling of young pitchers throughout baseball is pretty poor. The handling of Finnegan has been poor, but unless they didn’t feel that his change up had any development ceiling I don’t understand not projecting him out as a starter. If I had to guess, Finn’s size probably concerns some but I’m done with the “two small to start” angle ever since Pedro embarrassed the world for 15 years.
The Diamondbacks were skeptical of Max Scherzer’s ability to start too. Teams are sometimes wrong. The fact that the Royals have been able to develop relievers but not starters casts some doubt on their judgement here. Even the Mets traded Nolan Ryan for Jim Fregosi when the Mets were supposed experts in developing starters.
Young pitching prospects are among the most fragile animals on the planet. Huge bust rate due to they are in the peak injury nexus. Big difference between starting and relieving for Finnegan. It will take them several years to make that transition o where he would be able to throw 160 innings for them, assuming he does not blow out an elbow or shoulder doing so.
Maybe it works out for the Reds, but I make that deal in a heartbeat if I am the Royals. Not much for both Cueto and Kazmir combined IMO. Surprised teams (Orioles and Blue Jays) in the AL East who are desperate for pitching can’t match these, but maybe they are too much of a long shot to want to.
He threw 140 innings last year, so not sure why it should take him a while to throw 160.
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