Rick Porcello’s Upcoming Enormous Payday

The other night on Twitter, I put out one of those early-February thoughts that can’t really be properly explained in a mere 140 characters: Rick Porcello is going to make more than $100 million next year, and people are going to freak out about that.

Needless to say, I received some interesting replies to that, because the second part’s pretty easy to understand. Porcello’s generally seen as a decent enough pitcher, but one who doesn’t miss bats or prevent runs like his peripherals say that he should, and he’s usually not been among the top three pitchers on his own team. (That he’s been teammates with Max Scherzer, Justin Verlander, David Price, Anibal Sanchez, and Doug Fister generally gets left out of that last point.)

James Shields, who has had something like seven seasons better than Porcello’s best, just very recently couldn’t get to $80 million. Porcello’s going to top that? Well, okay then. I guess I need to back this up. Let’s run through this and see if it’s crazy. Spoiler alert: It might be crazy.

Normally, we’d start by looking at comparables, and we’ll make the best of that in a minute, but that immediately gets us into our first concern: there just aren’t many, because Porcello is still so young, headed only into his age-26 season. Put another way, he’s six months younger than last year’s NL Rookie of the Year, Jacob deGrom. He’s nearly two years younger than both of the top two finishers in last year’s AL Rookie of the Year, Jose Abreu and Matt Shoemaker, and while Abreu’s delayed arrival in the bigs obviously has some easily explainable circumstances, you get the point.

It’s just not that often that a pitcher arrives at free agency headed into his age-27 season, as Porcello will do, and really, we probably should be talking about him arriving at free agency headed into his age-26 season. Despite six full seasons in the big leagues — he made at least 27 starts every year from 2009-2014 — Porcello isn’t a free agent right now. That’s because he’s all of two days short of having been a free agent already, a situation that’s due to a quick three-week demotion to Triple-A back in 2010. Those three weeks earned the Tigers a free Yoenis Cespedes five years later, basically. Porcello’s already thrown six years of baseball, but he’ll need to throw a seventh first.

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Getting to free agency when he will is what happens when you make your debut at 20 years old, but merely doing that only stands out a little. Coming up at 20 and immediately sticking, well, that’s what’s impressive. Over the last 30 seasons of baseball, there’s been only six other pitchers besides Porcello who threw enough innings to qualify for the ERA title in their age-20 season. Four of them are, or were, among baseball’s elite — Dwight Gooden, Felix Hernandez, CC Sabathia, and Jose Fernandez. One blew out his arm in his age-21 season and never saw the bigs again (Ed Correa). Another basically immediately forgot how to pitch (Rick Ankiel).

None of these are exactly good comparables to what Porcello is, but it serves to prove a point, again: Getting to the bigs that young and immediately making an impact, no matter what happens next, doesn’t happen that much. Remember, now, how badly teams are trying to pay for prime years, and not post-prime years. Allow me to borrow a chart that Dave Cameron made while discussing Freddie Freeman’s extension a year ago:

As you can see, paying for seasons in the late 20s keeps escalating at the expense of paying for years in the 30s, and while this data is a year old, remember that Dave made this before Giancarlo Stanton or Mike Trout signed their extensions. We all knew a guy like Stanton was going to get paid, but it’s his youth that got him paid. It’s why you can very reasonably argue that Jason Heyward could get $200 million when he hits free agency along with Porcello next winter.

So, yes, being young and valuable and useful is worth more now than it’s ever been, even if obviously no one is arguing that Porcello is near the baseball commodity that Stanton or Trout or Heyward might be. You were promised comps, so let’s start with another right-handed pitcher of recent vintage who may have had a better reputation than Porcello, but never quite made it to the Clayton Kershaw / Hernandez level of elite pitching god: Matt Cain.

I’m choosing Cain here because he also came up to the bigs in his age-20 season and never really left, reaching free agency — as Porcello will — prior to his age-27 season, and because their age 24-25 seasons look very similar:

Cain vs Porcello, Age 24-25
Name IP K% BB% K-BB% HR/9 BABIP GB% ERA- FIP- xFIP- ERA FIP E-F xFIP WAR
Cain 441 19.5% 7.5% 12.0% .90 .257 37.7% 76 95 99 3.02 3.77 -0.75 4.08 7.1
Porcello 381.2 17.2% 5.3% 11.9% .85 .305 51.8% 96 91 89 3.84 3.61 0.24 3.45 6.3

It’s not perfect, but it’s pretty close. K%-BB% is identical. Homers per nine, basically identical. Cain has long been known as a guy who outpitches his FIP, so he’s got the clear advantage in ERA, though that’s part skill and part his home ballpark. Porcello walks fewer but also whiffs fewer, putting more balls in play, especially on the ground, and relying more upon his defense; his own ability to under-perform his FIP has long been remarked upon, as has the fact that he’s very often had Miguel Cabrera and Prince Fielder at the corners of his infield.

We’ll need to see what Porcello does in his age-26 springboard campaign, but we already know what Cain did: He went out and what superficially looked like his best season, putting up a typical Cain campaign with what ended up being a well-timed artificially low HR/FB season. He ended up signing for six years and $127.5 million without ever even reaching the open market, though if you prefer to look at it as a five-year, $112.5 million extension that began after his final existing season of $15 million expired, that’s fine too.

Porcello has yet to have the big year that Cain did, and that Cain had put up a big postseason in San Francisco’s 2010 playoff run certainly didn’t hurt either. Remember, however, that the economics of baseball just keep on going up. The 2012 Opening Day salaries in baseball were just under $3 billion. By Opening Day 2016, we’re looking at something like $4 billion. Cain’s $112.5 million of new money would be nearly $150 million by those standards. In terms of percentage of overall salaries, Porcello doesn’t have to match Cain’s deal to match Cain’s deal and reach that nine-figure mark.

Let’s throw out another comp, this time Homer Bailey. Bailey didn’t get started as young and he’s not the same kind of pitcher, but he also signed a big extension at near the same point in his career, in this case after his age-27 season. Let’s compare the two seasons he had leading up to that deal — his only two fully healthy ones — to Porcello’s two most recent:

Bailey (26-27) vs Porcello (24-25)
Name IP K% BB% K-BB% HR/9 BABIP GB% ERA- FIP- xFIP- ERA FIP E-F xFIP WAR
 Bailey 417 21.3% 6.2% 15.2% .99 .288 45.5% 92 93 95 3.58 3.64 -0.05 3.64 6.2
Porcello 381.2 17.2% 5.3% 11.9% .85 .305 51.8% 96 91 89 3.84 3.61 0.24 3.45 6.3

Bailey got there a different way, striking out more and offering more to dream on, but the ultimate outcome of his two showcase seasons were basically the same as Porcello’s last two. He signed for six years and $105 million, also without benefit of the open market, but limited somewhat by the fact that he was selling a final year of arbitration rather than all true free agent years, as Porcello would be. Two years later, his deal would look a little different through baseball inflation as well, though not as much as Cain’s.

Of course, it’d help substantially if Porcello does have that great springboard season, and he’s been poised as a “likely breakout” for years. For the first time, we’re going to get a chance to see him outside of Detroit. While the Green Monster probably won’t help, any groundballer would probably prefer having Pablo Sandoval, Xander Bogaerts, and Dustin Pedroia behind him rather than what the Tigers offered, and Christan Vazquez and Ryan Hanigan offer pitch-framing assistance that Alex Avila and friends couldn’t. On a Red Sox staff often accused of “not having an ace,” Porcello won’t be buried by superstars. On a Boston team expected to win and always in focus even when they don’t, Porcello’s public profile will be increased. I’d like to say those last two things won’t have any impact on a payday, but we know that they do.

Working against Porcello, potentially, is next year’s possibly historic group of free agent starters — Johnny Cueto, Jordan Zimmermann, Price, likely Zack Greinke, Fister, and so on. But if he has only his regular, quiet, three-win season, as both Steamer and ZiPS expect, he can easily expect a raise over his 2014 arbitration figure of $12 million. (Remember that a major league team decided to pay Edinson Volquez $10 million in each of the next two years despite all of his obvious flaws, and another gave that sum to Brett Anderson over one year despite the fact that he’s rarely available to actually pitch.) At his age, he can easily expect five or six seasons.

How much of a raise depends on what he does with Boston. But that Bailey deal really did serve to rise the tide for second-tier starting pitchers. Porcello won’t sell tickets and he doesn’t blow you away with velocity, but considering his general utility, long history of health, his age, and two more years of baseball inflation, it’s difficult to argue that he’s not worth as much as Bailey. (Again, assuming a non-disaster 2015.) Maybe that’s something like six years and $108 million, a term that would still put him only into his age-32 season.

Perhaps this doesn’t come to pass, and Porcello prefers a shorter term deal that allows him to get back on the market at 30 in what might not be such a crowded field. Maybe he gets hurt or flops in Boston and we’ll look back and laugh about the idea that we ever discussed this. But it’s not unreasonable to think that Rick Porcello, owner of a 4.30 career ERA, is less than a year away from a nine-figure payday. Maybe that says a little about ERA. Mostly, it says a lot about youth and the economics of baseball.





Mike Petriello used to write here, and now he does not. Find him at @mike_petriello or MLB.com.

80 Comments
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M W
11 years ago

So, then what about Mike Leake?

Henry
11 years ago
Reply to  M W

I talked to a scout with an east coast team and he showed me a ranking of the FA pitchers for next year that was put together by their team of scouts and front office using a variety of metrics. The list he showed me had the top 10 ranked as follows:

1. David Price
2. Jordan Zimmermann
3. Rick Porcello
4. Doug Fister
5. Mike Leake
6. Johnny Cueto
7. Jeff Samardzija
8. Scott Kazmir
9. Bud Norris
10. Alfredo Simon

He indicated age, ability (not stats) and prior injury history had a lot to do with their rankings in addition to what they think of them as a player. Like or not, that’s one front offices view….as of last week.

BradTheBluefish
11 years ago
Reply to  Henry

Very interesting list. Wonder where Hisashi Iwakuma will fall.

Doug Fister
11 years ago
Reply to  Henry

I would take 4 thru 9 over Porcello anytime, anyday….

Brian
11 years ago
Reply to  Doug Fister

Bud Norris over Rick Porcello anytime, anyday?

Interesting ignorance you’ve got there.

Chuck2a
11 years ago
Reply to  Henry

Cueto is 6th? This is where I concentrate my efforts then. Sounds way too low.

highrent
11 years ago
Reply to  Chuck2a

Are you kidding. While I can see people picking you. I wouldn’t. unfortunately Fister is aging and while will be valuable I’d take Porcello even if he stays the same. he’s unlikely to decline significantly in the next several years.
Anybody taking Leake over Porcello is just nuts. Bud norris what!! Shark should be higher on this list by a lot and the only one I’d consider over Porcello. I love Cueto and Kazmir but I can see being scared by the injury risks.

Irrational Fan :*(
11 years ago

I really hope this is trolling. If so bravo, go Rad Sawks!

Mike Green
11 years ago

Don’t you think that there is quite a bit of uncertainty about what Porcello’s payday might be at the end of this year? He’s got a career ERA of 4.30 but is coming off a season where he posted a 3.43. If he posts a similar season in 2015, he’ll probably get the big contract (as Bailey did after his 2nd big season). If he posts a season consistent with his career ERA, he’ll be lucky to get Shields money.

At this point, Porcello’s two closest age comps according to BBRef are Jon Garland and Greg Maddux. He’s obviously a lot closer to Garland than to Maddux, but it is easy to see how his career might progress for better or for worse. How he performs in 2015 will likely shape the narrative when it comes time for free-agency.

LHPSU
11 years ago
Reply to  Mike Green

The thing with Porcello is that, while you might not be willing to give him a big AAV, it’s much easier to give him a 5, 6, 7 year contract than a pitcher in his 30s like James Shields. 15MM/yr for 7 years is 105M, and he’ll still be just 34 at the end of the contract.

BirdoInBoston
11 years ago
Reply to  LHPSU

My thoughts exactly…Shields is a bit older and ostensibly has a shorter shelf life with this current contract than Porcello will have when he’s negotiating in the offseason.

jdbolickMember since 2016
11 years ago
Reply to  LHPSU

Very good point. Porcello might break $100 million and should get reasonably close even if he doesn’t, but it will only be due to the length of the contract.

Mike Green
11 years ago
Reply to  LHPSU

Let’s imagine that Porcello puts in a 2015 season in line with his career norms, rather than his 2014 season. A team that gives him a 6 year or 7 year contract is very foolish. At this point, his BBRef comparables run from Storm Davis to Jon Garland. There is Greg Maddux, who became great at age 26 and is not likely to be relevant to the discussion, Rick Wise who had a decent career and a bunch of pitchers who started out OK and faded pretty quickly. Garland’s career is pretty typical.

It’s defensible to lay out a 6 or 7 year contract for a durable starting pitcher at age 27 who is significantly above average. It is unwise to do so for one who is average.

davels
11 years ago
Reply to  Mike Green

Mike P., I get what you are saying about BBRef (actually Bill James’) similarity scores.

But they do give you some idea of what some other comparable players did. And that is valid. You indicate that yourself:

“Normally, we’d start by looking at comparables,…”

Looking at those “comparables” (and I’m not fixated on only those BBRef comparables… I’d be willing to examine any relatively close set of comparables), when you look at what they did after age 25… its just a stern reminder, that pitcher get hurt. Often. Even young and seemingly reliable and durable ones.

FWIW, looking at the BBRef (James) similarity scores for those pitchers, up to age 26, they look like solid comps to me.

And also, I don’t think you’re crazy to suggest Porcello could get 9 figures.

Eric R
11 years ago
Reply to  Mike Green

Built this comp list using SPs with the closest IP and fWAR rates through age 25; numbers are their fWAR age 27-33:

Jerry Reuss 21.5
Bill Gullickson 8.7
Alex Fernandez 6.4
Ismael Valdez 4.4
Jim Abbott 3.9
Lary Sorensen 2.4
Don Gullett 0.6
Dan Petry 0.6
Dontrelle Willis 0.5 [technically has one more year to add to this]

They averaged 7.0 fWAR, which would be worth maybe 7/$56M? For shorter deals, I get:

6/$57M [year seven clocked in as slightly below replacement level],
5/$53M
4/$44M
3/$32M
2/$21M
1/$10M

If he gets a QO, you probably have to dial those back a little.

Well-Beered Englishman
11 years ago
Reply to  Mike Green

I think there are plenty of teams that will need starting pitchers, and that don’t rely on ERA to decide on what contract to offer.

Catoblepas
11 years ago

He also got traded to a team that definitely doesn’t use ERA, and while the Red Sox have lots of high-minors pitching depth, they also have a good chunk of money coming off the books in the next year. I could see him signing a 6/120 extension with them before the trade deadline.

Yirmiyahu
11 years ago
Reply to  Catoblepas

A 6/120 extension?? You’re even crazier than Petriello.

I can see 6/100 happen but some conditions need to be met. He needs to have another good 2013ish season, he needs to have sparkling clean medicals, he needs a better agent than James Shields’, and a particular type of team (the kind that values advanced stats, groundballs, and youth) needs to have the money and the need.

That may all very well happen, and it may be the Red Sox. But there’s absolutely no reason to hand out an enormous extension before the season ends. If they extend him before he hits the market, it will be for very reasonable terms.

redsoxu571
11 years ago
Reply to  Mike Green

Why would we expect Porcello to post an ERA “consistent with his career ERA”? That ignores everything about the way his career has developed. The only thing “consistent” about Porcello’s ERAs over the year has been constant improvement.

vivalajeter
11 years ago
Reply to  redsoxu571

To be fair, last season was the first time since 2009 that he had an ERA below 4.30. Sure, it could be the way his career is developing – or it may be an outlier.

With an ERA above 4.30 in 4 out of the last 5 years, it’s not outlandish to think that he’s capable of having that type of year in 2015.

Henry
11 years ago
Reply to  vivalajeter

Vivalajeter you are wrong about his stats. His 2009 yr ERA was 3.96 and he’s averaged a 20pt improvement every since his 2010 yr 4.92 ERA. Based on his performance trend he should match or beat last years ERA.

vivalajeter
11 years ago
Reply to  vivalajeter

What exactly am I wrong about? I said that last season is the first time since 2009 that he had an ERA below 4.30. That means that in 2009 he had an ERA better than 4.30, but he hadn’t done it again until last year. Unless his player page is giving me false numbers, I don’t see how I’m wrong about his stats.

andrew l
11 years ago

Obviously he hit FA on a down note and had injury and inconsistency to boot, but Phil Hughes was a big time prospect like Porcello who entered the market as a 27 year old and got chump change. If Porcello pitches league average I don’t expect him to reach 9 figures

LHPSU
11 years ago
Reply to  andrew l

Right, make a comparison with Porcello by taking away all of Porcello’s biggest advantages. Seriously?

DNA+
11 years ago

The argument is perfectly reasonable. However, if I am a GM, I wouldn’t want to commit that many years to a pitcher who is pretty mediocre. How often do players that are thought to be mediocre and without much upside sign deals that are six or seven years long? I can’t really think of any off the top of my head, but the business side of baseball is the part I pay the least attention to.

DNA+
11 years ago
Reply to  Mike Petriello

He seems to prevent runs near and perhaps a bit worse than league average, so if he isn’t mediocre he is closer to mediocre than he is to great. Do you see the potential upside in his stuff, or just his age?

siljgd
11 years ago
Reply to  DNA+

That he prevents runs worse than league average strikes me as a pretty good reason to think that he’s mediocre (or worse). On the other hand, Homer Bailey is a pitcher who is mediocre (or worse) and got the big deal contemplated here.

Catoblepas
11 years ago
Reply to  DNA+

Consistent “mediocrity” is pretty close to greatness, and I’d argue that he definitely has upside, in that he’s so young and has had such bad defense behind him. Jon Lester averaged 4.1 WAR over four seasons, then spiked a 6.1 WAR and signed for 6/155. Porcello has averaged about a win less, but will also be four years younger, which is a ton. If he has a good season, it’s very easy to imagine a deal for 7/120 or more.

Zach
11 years ago
Reply to  Catoblepas

Err, I get what you’re trying to say but… Consistent mediocrity is by definition not “pretty close to greatness”. Mediocre is not a synonym for average, its more closely a synonym to poor/below average.

vivalajeter
11 years ago
Reply to  DNA+

I agree with DNA+ on this one. He just doesn’t seem like someone that you give that many years to. When DNA+ says “without much upside”, I don’t think he’s implying that Porcello can’t contribute. He probably means there’s not much ace-potential there. Porcello is a good guy to have on your team, but he’s not going to have a Santana, Sabathia, Verlander, etc type of season.

And as much as we like to look past ERA, it shouldn’t just be ignored. Last year was the first time he’s put up an ERA under 4 since his rookie season in 2009, when he barely made the cutoff (3.96).

As for Catoblepas’s assertion that consistent mediocrity is pretty close to greatness, I have no idea why you would think that. Consistent 2-3 WAR seasons doesn’t make you a great pitcher (especially when you give up runs at a greater clip than FIP thinks you should).

DNA+
11 years ago
Reply to  vivalajeter

There is no question that he contributes, and having a guy like him at the back of your rotation means you’ve got a very strong rotation. I just don’t recall those types of players locking up the real long term deals that go to current superstars, or are given to young budding superstars as extensions.

My feeling is that teams are quite risk averse with long term deals for free agents, and only really give them because it is the only way to get superstars to actually sign. A long term deal for a guy like Porcello will either take one team vastly overbidding the market, or multiple teams willing to go long term for a level of production that is relatively easy to come by every year on the free agent market.

If it is me, I just sign a new 33 or 34 year old 3 win pitcher every couple of years and keep the roster and payroll flexibility.

Catoblepas
11 years ago
Reply to  DNA+

Haaaaa, because 34-year-old pitchers pumping out 3 win seasons grow on trees, and allow for “payroll flexilibity”. Definitely.

vivalajeter
11 years ago
Reply to  DNA+

They don’t grow on trees. As far as I know, no humans do. But it’s not too difficult to find a pitcher on a shorter deal with that performance history (and by shorter, I mean shorter than 5-6 years). Not that you’d take them over Porcello, but I’d probably take them on a shorter deal than Porcello on a $100MM+ deal.

Last off-season, Colon signed a 2-year deal. He averaged about 3 WAR the prior 3 years, and was coming off a season (based on WAR) that surpassed anything Porcello has done. Kazmir came off of a ~2.5 WAR season and signed for 2 years. They both had warts, but there wasn’t much downside in their deals due to the commitment.

This year, Shields (a better pitcher than Porcello) signed for 4 years. Santana has come off of 2 straight ~3 WAR seasons, and he signed a 4-year deal. Peavy’s not quite as good anymore, but he signed for 2 years.

I just don’t think Porcello is the type of pitcher that a GM tells his owner ‘we need to have him!’ to the point that he gives out a 6th year.

Steven
11 years ago

There’s something to be said for a guy that starts off his career with 6 straight full seasons with 150+ innings each year. So much of Porcello’s value is in his ability to stay healthy for a full season.

With Porcello being young, consistently healthy, and doesn’t appear to have been abused (last year was the only season in which he’s exceeded 200 innings), I’d be much more comfortable giving him a long term deal than most other pitchers.

siljgd
11 years ago
Reply to  Steven

Health doesn’t matter, production does. If a guy is giving you the same WAR in 100 innings, you’re no worse off, you just get a replacement level pitcher from AAA to fill in the last 50 innings. (Actually, you’re probably better off, since you might be able to collect insurance money on your first pitcher.)

Ben Sheets, Mark Prior, & Rich Harden
11 years ago
Reply to  siljgd

“Health doesn’t matter…”

False 🙁

Rich Harden
11 years ago

Did you know I got hurt in a dice game one time?. I flung my arm back to toss the dice and I felt pain and another trip to see Dr. Andrews again. Life isn’t fair….

Mike Green
11 years ago

I ran a Play Index, using pitchers who had thrown 1200+ innings through age 26 and with an ERA+ between 95 and 105. There were 22 such pitchers in the integration era. Five had decent careers after age 27- Bob Friend, Jerry Reuss, Rick Wise, Don Sutton and Catfish Hunter. Friend, Sutton and Hunter had started off slow but by age 26 had taken a step forward. That might be Porcello’s situation a year from now. The other seventeen included Ross Grimsley, Jon Garland, Billy Hoeft, Ray Sadecki, Dick Ellsworth and a bunch of lesser names.

In Porcello’s case, the ERA decrease in 2014 was accompanied by a K rate decrease. He might be able to sustain this, but at this point, the odds are pretty strong that he’ll end up with a career like the other seventeen.

Catoblepas
11 years ago
Reply to  Mike Green

Except Porcello is definitely underrated by ERA, as a groundballer in front of Miguel Cabrera and Prince Fielder for much of his career. I’d be much more interested in comps using FIP or K%/BB%/GB%

Mike Green
11 years ago
Reply to  Catoblepas

Porcello has under-performed his FIP over his career. The biggest single reason for this is his difficulty pitching with men on base. He has markedly poorer performance markers with runners on over his career than with the bases empty (and that split continued in 2014).

Jorge Fabregas
11 years ago
Reply to  Mike Green

Check the bottom of his FG player page. He is neutral on sequencing wins–BIP wins is a different story.

vivalajeter
11 years ago
Reply to  Catoblepas

He’s been around since 2009, and he was teammates with Fielder for 2 seasons. It’s not like Fielder was giving up extra runs for Porcello’s entire career.

Looking at DRS, Cabrera gave up about 10 runs on defense in his 4 years at 1B. That’s about 2 runs per pitcher, assuming a 5-man rotation. 2 runs, over 4 years. Or 0 runs according to UZR. That’s not enough of a reason for me to think that Porcello is definitely underrated by ERA.

Steven
11 years ago
Reply to  vivalajeter

The Tigers as a whole have been pretty terrible at defense the past few years.

Team: rank, Team DRS
2014 Tigers: 28th, -65
2013 Tigers: 28th, -66
2012 Tigers: 25th, -32

everdiso
11 years ago

his strikeouts are trending completely in the wrong direction, even as they are on the rise throughout baseball.

ERA comparables over the past 3 seasons:
Porcello: 4.08
Aaron Harang: 4.08
Travis Wood: 4.08
Nathan Eovaldi: 4.11
Ryan Vogelsong: 4.12

the only reason we’re even talking about this is because he plays for the might red sox

Steven
11 years ago
Reply to  everdiso

Except his K’s have not been trending down. Outside of a spike in 2013, his K rate has steadily increased (4.65, 5.14, 5.46, [7.22], 5.67).

xFIP rankings over the past 3 seasons, min 500 IP:
19. Jordan Zimmermann
20. James Shields
21. Doug Fister
22. Rick Porcello
23. Jon Lester
24. Hiroki Kuroda
25. Homer Bailey

Rick Porcello is younger than all of those guys.

vivalajeter
11 years ago
Reply to  Steven

But would any GM in baseball prefer Porcello to Zimmerman, Shields, Fister or Lester? And if we’re just looking at a one-year deal, would they take him over Kuroda?

Steven
11 years ago
Reply to  vivalajeter

I think somebody just wants to hate on the Red Sox…

For 2015 alone, yea, I’d take any of those guys (I think Kuroda could be a push)

Give them a 5 year deal? I think Lester is the only 1 I’d prefer over Porcello.

Anthony
11 years ago
Reply to  vivalajeter

On a five- or six-year deal, I’d prefer Porcello over Fister, Kuroda, Bailey and Shields. I’d only take Zimmermann and Lester over him, and those two commanded/will command 150+ MM. Porcello is a much better commodity than he’s being given credit for here.

vivalajeter
11 years ago
Reply to  vivalajeter

But Kuroda and Shields aren’t signing six year deals. We just saw that no team would go beyond 4 years for Shields, and Kuroda is year to year. We don’t know what Zimmermann will get yet, and while Bailey signed a longer term deal with the Reds, that a) seemed to go poorly as soon as he finished signing it, and b) was based on the feeling that his performance had just caught up to his terrific ‘stuff’.

Just because Porcello might age better than others, it doesn’t mean you give him that many years.

arc
11 years ago
Reply to  everdiso

Yo

Nope
11 years ago
Reply to  everdiso

his strikeouts are trending completely in the wrong direction

2009 12.4%
2010 12.0%
2011 13.3%
2012 13.7%
2013 19.3%
2014 15.4%

everdiso, Blue Jays Homer
11 years ago
Reply to  everdiso

But then wait, now it’s not trends that are important; it’s just an unweighted three-year sample of ERA. (Trends were important for strikeouts when I thought that validated my bias, but I don’t want you guys to go look at trends for ERA.)

ERA-

2010 117
2011 114
2012 110
2013 106
2014 88

the only reason we’re even talking about this is because he plays for the might red sox

That’s the only reason you’re talking about him, willfully misusing statistics in the process.

everdiso
11 years ago

yeah, that wasn’t me posting.

when you see an everdiso post with clearly stupid numbers in it, rest assured that its one of my adorable red sox fan minions posting.

the real everdiso thinks that the porcello pickup was easily the red sox’ best move of the offseason. pitchers who can post mid-3 fips and xfips over full seasons at age 24-25 don’t grow on trees, even if its likely that his era will lag behind his fipoy number somewhat. (you can’t blame it all on defense – its not just his babip that’s high but his hr/fb% too).

Nick
11 years ago

Teams can get contact heavy innings eaters much cheaper. His age may be attractive, but strikeouts rule in today’s game. He’s not getting elite money if he continues putting up Carl Pavanoesque strikeout numbers. Very few contact heavy pitchers are consistant enough to warrent a big payday these days, clubs are well aware of that.

RickMember since 2016
11 years ago

It would be nice if he could get his strikeouts to 7k per 9, but a comp to Fister isn’t too bad.

Blue
11 years ago

From Boras’ lips to your ears?

I mean, this is exactly what he was angling for all those years ago when the Tigers foolishly gave him a major league contract at 18. Then they compounded the foolishness by bringing him up way, way too early.

At the end of the day he is a guy who has never matched his hype, has been a mediocre pitcher, and whose career has probably been fatally damaged by his (and Scot Boras’) greed.

Anthony
11 years ago
Reply to  Blue

He’s been so damaged that from his age-20 through age-25 season, in the last 35 years, he ranked 38th in fWAR of the 173 pitchers to throw 500 IP in that age range, nestled in a group of 14-16 fWAR pitchers which includes Jake Peavy, Cole Hamels, Mario Soto, Brad Radke, Andy Pettitte, Stephen Strasburg, Johan Santana, and Ben Sheets, and also a few scary names like Prior, Mulder and D-Train. He’s had a fine career thus far, and that’ll continue. I don’t see the damage..

DL80
11 years ago

Meh. Last year, his ERA was 36th, his FIP was 46th, his WHIP was 45th, and that’s in what has been his best year so far. His BABIP was .298 last year, so I don’t think you can expect a better defense to do a ton (though a different park may help some).

If you think he’s going to keep getting better, he might be a decent #2/3 starter. But I don’t know where the improvement can come from. His walks can’t fall much more, the Ks are terrible, and last year’s K rate looks like a career high outlier.

He’s fine, but I wouldn’t pay him more than $10-15 mil per year no matter how young he is.

DL80
11 years ago
Reply to  DL80

By “last year’s K rate” I meant 2013. Still getting used to the idea that we are in 2015!

Anthony
11 years ago
Reply to  DL80

Well, 15 MM per year on a 7 year deal, which takes him through just the age James Shields is now, i.e. 33, is 105 MM and sort of proves Petriello’s point that he’s *young* enough and *just* good enough to get 100 MM..

Dan
11 years ago

I find it hard to believe he’ll get less than 120-150 million over 6-8 years.

He’s young. You probably start his projection going forward at about 4 WAR give or take. But unlike most free agents, he likely doesn’t decline initially. He’ll still be getting better or at worst plateaued for a few years.

Rough estimate of WAR and $/WAR and total salary going forward for his FA contract if it was 7 years…

Year 1: 4 WAR, $7M per, 28M
Year 2: 4 WAR, $7.2M per, 28.8M
Year 3: 4.5 WAR, $7.4M per, 33.3M
Year 4: 4 WAR, $7.6M per, 30.4M
Year 5: 3.5 WAR, $7.8M per, 27.3M
Year 6: 3 WAR, $8M per, 24M
Year 7: 2.5 WAR, $8.2 per, 20.5M

That’d be 7 years and in the neigborhood of $190M. Crazy? Maybe. Maybe you want to cut each season by 0.5 WAR. That still only cuts it to 7 years and about $165M. You can’t really be less aggressive on the $/WAR figure. MLB contracts are likely on a big upward explosion with local TV money flooding in the next few years.

Porcello has been nothing great so far. But he’s been solid and he has youth and durability on his side, at least as much as any FA pitcher ever can. He’s going to get paid. He might even push $200M if he has a big season in Boston whether anybody likes it or not.

Anthony
11 years ago
Reply to  Dan

I think you’re overly optimistic starting him at 4 WAR. Start him at 3, plateau for two years, then start a slower, but real, decline around 30. A seven year deal for Porcello, for me, would be due to see about 18 WAR, a lot less than your 25.5 WAR. And that’s fWAR; if you believe in him underperforming his FIP, you dock him even lower. At 15 WAR, he looks a lot more like the 7/105 being projected for him in many circles.

Dan
11 years ago
Reply to  Anthony

why are you projecting a plateau for only age 27 and 28? He could peak at age 28, but he could also peak at 31 or 32. He’s not a high velocity, high K kinda guy and it’s quite possible he’d maintain effectiveness into his early 30s.

And why start at 3? He’s already at that level. Even if you follow all your assumptions and are conservative at the $/WAR level, you get annual salaries of approx:

21M, 21.6M, 22.2M, 19M, 15.6M, 13M, 10M

And that’s being conservative starting at 3 WAR (peaking at 3 WAR) and then regressing after the plateau. That’s 7 years, $120+M, not 105M. And that’s conservative on the peak value and conservative on the $/WAR.

So that would suggest he’s almost assured to get 7 figures since we are being conservative with that guess. Find 1 or 2 teams willing to be aggressive? Yikes the value is going up fast.

Nicholas
11 years ago
Reply to  Anthony

In free agency, the signing team is generally overly optimistic. That’s why so many players end up being considered overpaid or on bad contracts. So if by a reasonable projection he looks to be worth 7/105, then there’s a great chance a team values him say 20% higher than that, based on various things like him being a good fit for their ballpark or the fact that they’re in the NL and he’ll be better there or that they don’t have any youngish pitchers locked up and they really want one or they like how a couple of his stats are trending, whatever. So maybe 7/125. And say they think he’s really desirable with how young he is and they don’t want to miss out on him so they make a super early bid like 10% higher than they optimistically think he’ll be worth, so say 7/140. And then they figure everyone will be offering him big 7 year deals so they decide they’ll set themselves apart by giving out an 8th year at a nominal amount, say $10m, it might actually be a bargain since he’ll only be 34. So it could pretty realistically get to 8/150. They reason that it’s not like it’s even $20m a year and he’ll barely be hitting his mid-thirties and we’re a big market team that can afford it so it’s really a pretty reasonable contract. And, as the other guy said, if he has a big year (and more so a big playoffs) then, yeah, it could get up near $200m.

vivalajeter
11 years ago
Reply to  Dan

Dan, first of all, we shouldn’t project 4WAR if he’s never done it before. This isn’t a case of a guy with great ‘stuff’ and we’re just waiting for it to come together. It’s also not the case of someone who has 1-2 years of service and you think he’ll take a leap forward now that he has more experience. He’s put up about 3 WAR for the last 3 years straight – a sudden improvement shouldn’t be assumed.

Pitchers don’t age like hitters. As Dan Szymborski recently wrote, “While hitters tend to have a definable aging curve, pitcher aging generally looks like long, fairly consistent slope down from when they first have success in the majors, peppered with the possible cliffs due to the higher injury rate.”

Aside from that, why are people acting like teams will throw him a 7-year deal (or even an 8 year deal, as someone said)? Look at every pitcher who received at least a 6 year deal. Those deals aren’t given out to ‘safe’ pitchers who are of the high floor, low ceiling variety. The list is filled with pitchers who were, or at least were perceived to be, elite pitchers. A team wants Johan Santana, CC Sabathia, Zack Greinke, etc, and they’re willing to go beyond their comfort zone in order to make it happen. They add an extra year knowing that it’ll have a big impact on next year’s team. Porcello isn’t that type of pitcher. If a GM finds out that there’s a good 5-year offer on the table for Porcello next year, they won’t be thinking “I need this guy – let’s give him 6 or 7 years!”. They’ll move on to a better pitcher (like Price, Greinke, Zimmermann), or they’ll take a lesser pitcher on a 2-4 year deal (someone like Kazmir).

This is all subject to change if Porcello puts up a fantastic year, well beyond what he’s shown in the past. But if he puts up another ~3WAR season, why would someone give him that many years?

vivalajeter
11 years ago
Reply to  vivalajeter

The more I think about it, Porcello seems to be a lesser version of Mark Buehrle. Since his first full season in 2001, Buehrle has thrown at least 200 innings every single year. His two ‘bad’ years were right around 2 WAR each, but in his other 12 years he’s averaged 4 WAR. He peaked in 2005 with a 6 WAR season. He doesn’t strike out many guys, but he doesn’t walk people either. He’s a steady guy to have in your rotation, but you don’t want him to be your go-to pitcher. The longest contract he received has been for 4 years. It seems that no team has wanted his skillset enough to give him a long term deal, even though he’s a steady pitcher with no injury history.

As a sidenote, Porcello’s top season by WAR was 2013 @ 3.2 WAR. Buehrle has matched or surpassed that in 11 of his 14 seasons.

Dan
11 years ago
Reply to  vivalajeter

I guess you will end up being surprised.

GMember since 2021
11 years ago

As a very serious Tiger fan I’ve seen nearly every inning of every start he has made at the big league level. He has improved each year (command, mound presence, knowledge of best ways to get hitters out) and has had his success inducing ground balls to a very poor defensive infield. His strikeout rate improved and he gained skills missing bats after he ditched the slider for the curve. He is durable as they come and was stretched out longer than he could have been. His value will be sky high after the exposure he will receive this year in Boston and I fully expect him to be in 120-140 range, healthy, at 26. Could be the last 300 game winner we see if he can continually stay health and knock out 13-16/year moving forward.

John C
11 years ago

Porcello really arrived in the majors a year or two sooner than he probably should have, because at the time, the Tigers’ rotation was so bad that Porcello, whose entire pro career to that point consisted of 24 starts in high-A ball, was one of the five best starters in the organization already. He literally learned his craft at the highest level, all the time saddled with dreadful infield defense. That’s why the Red Sox like him–he was set up to fail in every possible way, and has been successful in spite of that. And he’s barely 26 years old.

And when the 2015 season is over, I suspect they will give him the contract that they wouldn’t give to Jon Lester.

Doug Fister
11 years ago

Why Is Porcello getting more attention than a hooker on Friday night after payday?….Im of the opinion he is a 4 or 5 type starter and those usually don’t get that much attention..He wasn’t even a no.3 type on his old team and the Boston jokers buy into his GB rate. Have fun with that when his sinkers don’t sink…The city of Boston will have this guy outta town when his contract ends…There will not be an extension

Doug Fister
11 years ago

If Porcello gets an 100 mill contract then im friggin retiring!!!

highrent
11 years ago

So 3 WAR pitchers are 4 to 5 types. Wow talk about a weird perspective. Porcello has been a solid no 3 and most people even sportswriters seem to agree. if you merely using ERA then I won’t even try to argue with you its beyond hope.

highrent
11 years ago

Porcello should never have been turned into a sinker pitcher. He’s never been able to harness and pitch off his four seam fastball since. He also lost a lot of feel for his breaking stuff.

highrent
11 years ago

Porcello main sin is that the tigers hsould have traded him to a good infield. High grounder pitchers with homer problems aren’t the type of pitcher to excel for the Tigers.

highrent
11 years ago

While its hard to get used to. Porcello will be an example of someone who will be paid based on future value. he still throws pretty hard and has lots of potential. If he can ever breakthrough this strange equilibrium he has going and get any of his true outcomes to improve permanently without regression then he will be a beast.

highrent
11 years ago

Its true though Heyward has a better case for this. Position players tend to be a safer bet to assume growth. The smarter bet for Porcello would be to sign a 4 or so year deal because he’s almost certainly to get more AAV at age 30 or 31. Take as high AAV now and then go to FA again. Taking extra years often lowers overhaul AAV its a tradeoff. So unless he wants to make 12 million for 6 years and no one is going to sign a 10 year option for him. I’m thinking he’s better off 4 to 5 years.

Cracking Chang
11 years ago

Aren’t Homer Baily’s and Matt Cain’s deals cautionary tales? Lets see how his season in Boston works, how Miley, Buchholz and Kelly fare, and see if any of the highly rated AAA arms (Owens, Rodriquez, Johnson, barnes) work out. Sox will wait till the end of the season, unless Porcello is willing to take a discount.

jlederer
11 years ago

This article needs to be reposted…