Seattle’s Grand Outfield Experiment
The Mariners are trying something that has never been attempted before. In Jarrod Dyson, Mitch Haniger, and Leonys Martin they’re rolling out three legitimate center fielders that were center fielders last year. We’re in love with fly balls right now, but fly balls will not love Seattle this season.
There’s obviously some precedent for strong defensive outfields. The Cubs and Royals, for example, have both appeared in the World Series recently thanks, in no small part, to their ability to take away hits. But even if you stretch the definition of center fielder, something approximating Seattle’s current experiment appears to have been attempted only three times previously. And even then, it doesn’t appear to have happened exactly this way. While the three outfielders themselves don’t think it’s a big deal, there might be a few reasons no other teams have tried this.
All three of the starting outfielders in Seattle played 50 games or more in center last year. All three are likely to play at least 100 games this coming season. If that happens, the Mariners will be only the second club since 1956* to meet both criteria. The 2013 Indians were the first. They had Michael Bourn, Michael Brantley, and Drew Stubbs and in center.
*The earliest year for which a center-field designation exists in our data.
Already, though, you see the problem with drawing a straight line between these groups. Brantley was never considered a good center fielder by the defensive metrics, so you might take any of the three Seattle outfielders over him defensively. And although Stubbs and Haniger might have some commonalities, Bourn was also nearing the end of his career as a starter in 2013. If you’re talking about an outfield collective named Death to Flying Things, that Indians squad wouldn’t necessarily be your top contender to the 2017 Mariners.
But that year happened, so you have to bring it up. If you drop the requirements to 75 games started in the outfield in year two, two other teams join the fray.
The 1987 Mets, featuring Lenny Dykstra, Kevin McReynolds, and Mookie Wilson, technically had three center fielders. But McReynolds was no longer a center fielder, really, and one of those guys was also always behind some dude named Darryl Strawberry on the depth charts.
The 1976 Braves had Ken Henderson, and Rowland Office, and Jimmy Wynn. Wynn, though, was near the end of his career and only had one more year in him. Henderson was also close to the end of his time in the majors. Defensive numbers from the 70s aren’t gospel, but Mr. Office was never considered a good center fielder by Total Zone ratings.
If you want hope from history, you could look at the 2003 Mariners as representative of a few teams that have tried this with outfielders that were capable of playing center, but didn’t for team reasons. Ichiro Suzuki only played right field for that team, but he clearly had the defensive chops to play center, and that team added Randy Winn as a center fielder and put him in left, while Mike Cameron patrolled center.
So let’s say this is at least a rare thing, that three legit, in-their-prime center fielders are going to be on the field together most games for one team. What could go wrong?
It’s just one team, one time. Well, two times. Remember those 1987 Mets?
Hard to watch. To their credit, none of the three Mariners winced when I brought up the Carlos Beltran/ Mike Cameron situation. “We’re going to be out there calling for the ball, going to get the ball,” said an unfazed Dyson in camp. “We just have to communicate. Leonys Martin is good at that,” laughed Haniger. “It’ll be beautiful, man,” smiled a gregarious Martin.
Martin summed up the spring situation in Seattle camp best: “Communication is key. It’ll be a lot of fun, we’ll stick together and work on it a little bit. We need to trust each other, and here in spring training that’s the process. I’ve known Dyson for a little. Communication is no problem, not going to be a problem.”
Beyond potential collisions, there’s another reason teams haven’t tried this experiment before: offense. In the eternal tradeoff that is putting together a team, the Mariners have prioritized defense in the outfield, and it will cost them. Only two (rebuilding) teams have a worse projected offensive level from their top three outfielders this year.
| Team | OF wRC+ |
|---|---|
| Padres | 84.7 |
| Reds | 85.3 |
| Mariners | 89.0 |
| Rays | 95.3 |
| Twins | 95.5 |
It doesn’t really get any better if you consider backups. Ben Gamel and Guillermo Heredia are both projected for less than league-average offense. Then again, they can both pick it, too. “We have depth,” said Dyson. “Someone goes down, we have someone to step up. Always good to have someone to go get it.”
This tradeoff between defense and offense isn’t some accident. “We had eight targets this offseason,” general manager Jerry Dipoto said this weekend at the SABR Analytics conference. “We got them.”
Perhaps it’s because they feel outfield defense has been undervalued. “We play in a ballpark and in a division that should enhance our ability to win games via defense, especially range in the outfield,” Dipoto said on that panel. “We play in a big ballpark where generally the ball hangs up in the gaps more than the others. We play in a division with at least three ballparks — in Anaheim, Oakland, Seattle — that play a little bit bigger than most,” he pointed out.
| Division | Average Home Run Park Factor |
|---|---|
| NL East | 97.8 |
| AL West | 98.8 |
| AL Central | 99.6 |
| NL West | 99.8 |
| NL Central | 102.2 |
| AL East | 103.2 |
The Mariners were fifth in fly balls as a staff last year, and they added the No. 2 fly-ball guy in Drew Smyly, so it’s actually more about the pitching staff than the parks. Dipoto said the same at the conference: “Maybe more importantly, we have a pretty fly-ball-centric pitching staff. That’s our pitching staff, so how do we maximize the value of a fly-ball pitching staff, and an environment that should be beneficial to a fly-ball pitcher with an outfield… quite frankly that, prior to this spring, wasn’t exactly rangy… Everyone we acquired, with the exception of Mark Rzepczynski, everyone we acquired was a fly-ball pitcher… We wanted to create a new paradigm for our club that was more built on defense and the ability to go run it down.”
This becomes a question about pitching, now, too. The staff may be built to counter the new swing in baseball that can take the low pitch deep but has problems with the high pitch. Perhaps they’ll throw more high fastballs this year — they were 12th in the league last year in average four-seam height in the zone — especially since they know their outfielders will track down anything that stays in the park.
And so the Mariners go into this full, team-wide experiment with their eyes wide open. They’re willing to make the offensive tradeoff — and risk a crowded outfield — in order to make sure their their defense is best suited to their pitching staff and ballpark. It’s not something that’s been done often in this scope before, and a couple of times when we’ve gotten close, it’s been just short of disastrous. That doesn’t mean it won’t work this time.
Thanks to Jeff Zimmerman for query help.
With a phone full of pictures of pitchers' fingers, strange beers, and his two toddler sons, Eno Sarris can be found at the ballpark or a brewery most days. Read him here, writing about the A's or Giants at The Athletic, or about beer at October. Follow him on Twitter @enosarris if you can handle the sandwiches and inanity.
The Mariners did something similar before when they ran three outfielders with extensive CF experience in Randy Winn, Mike Cameron, and Ichiro. And now with Safeco’s outfield being smaller (I’m still annoyed about that – I liked the old dimensions better) there’s less ground to cover.
yeah, Cameron alerted me to that outfield so I added a paragraph about it! thanks.
Dave, or Mike?
“Already, though, you see the problem with drawing a straight line between these groups.”
I sure do: you’re not likely to get 3 players who played 50 games in CF unless at least one, and probably two, played on different teams the previous year.
The red sox this year are another interesting team in this mold. Perhaps lacking the elite CF presence depending what you think of bradley’s defense, but all 3 OF could presumably handle average or better CF.
Edit: Never mind. I should probably read the entire article before posting.
It won’t turn up on the queries, but the 2009 Mariners somewhat had a starting outfield of three legitimate CFs in their prime with Ichiro, Franklin Gutierrez, and Endy Chavez. None of them had played a ton of CF the year before, but Ichiro had been a full-time CF in 2007, Chavez had come up as one, had played at least some CF the previous three seasons, and would play mostly CF his next gig (part-time, because of the Yuniseky Betancourt collision), and Gutierrez was the actual center fielder.
(This came up once when I was searching for highest-UZR OFs. Ryan Langerhans was involved in surprisingly many of them.)
The 2003 Mariners also had true centerfielders in Mike Cameron and Randy Winn along with Ichiro, but Ichiro hadn’t played much centerfield yet except maybe some in Japan.
Ichiro was primarily a CF in Japan, though he did play one game at 3B (!?) in 1999.
Ah, thanks. BBRef doesn’t have outfield position breakdowns for Japan, and I couldn’t find any other source really quick.
Are we certain that Haniger is a legitimate center fielder?
Eric Longenhagen wrote that he could “play center field in a pinch,” and BP’s prospect team wrote that “he’s not a complete disaster in center field” but “he’s a step or two too slow for an everyday up-the-middle role.” I read the former as faint praise (essentially saying that he could back it up, but shouldn’t play there regularly), and the latter is much more straightforward.
His (small sample size) numbers in CF were excellent last season, and his arm is terrific … but I don’t know that there’s enough there to suggest that he could be a regular out there. To be fair, though, it does seem like he can be a tremendous asset in the corner, which the Mariners will be very happy with.
Edit: Also, the Yankees kind of did this last year, though Gardner and Ellsbury are older (plus Hicks).
Sorry for the double-post, but the Yankees played Gardner, Ellsbury, and Hicks together more often than I thought in 2016. They started 49 games together, and the team finished the game with that alignment another dozen times or so. I suspect they would’ve played together more if Hicks wasn’t so bad with the bat (or if he hadn’t been injured).
Gardner hasn’t played CF regularly since 2013, but he has a career 8.3 UZR/150 out there, and has always been at least competent out there. And Hicks was a center fielder in the minors and with the Twins.
I don’t know if this quite compares to what the Mariners stand to do this year, but it’s worth noting.
It’s also well worth a double-post. Thank you for sharing this info. 🙂
Other teams that didn’t show in the query results for different reasons: the 1982 Athletics (Armas/Henderson/Murphy) and one of the recent Pirates teams (Polanco/Marte/Cutch).
Thanks for reminding me! I knew there was a team from my past that had three OFs that could really cover some ground. With Henderson, Murphy and Armas that Oakland team had a pretty good defensive outfield.
Hi Eno,
As a side note this is not the first time Jerry has experimented with this. In his early years in Anaheim he had some combination of Trout/Hamilton/Bourjos/Hunter set up for a pitching staff that consisted of pitchers like Weaver, Blanton, Hanson, Jepsen, etc. It didn’t seem to work too well in part due to the starters and relievers coughing up a lot of home runs (bad starter Blanton is bad).
However as you detailed above Jerry may have taken some of the lessons to heart that he experienced in Anaheim. All three of the defenders look truly legit and the pitching staff looks light years more capable of not coughing up a ton of home runs so if this strategy is ever going to work it would be the 2017 Mariners.
Very useful extra info here, too. Especially since it relates to DiPoto. Again, much thanks here too!
Compare this to San Diego who went on record this spring as being open to ‘hiding’ Hunter Renfroe in CF flanked by Margot and Jankowski.
Believe they mentioned their confidence in shifts as a reason but they also started Wil Myers out there not long ago so maybe they believe CF is overrated?
Baseball slowly evolving from curmudgeon to kinda-sorta-open to tinkering has been fun to watch
Isn’t Petco deep to the alleys but relatively shallow in center? Maybe you don’t mind having a slower player in center if you’ve got a lot of range either side. It’s an interesting idea to try there. Stadium effects are probably relatively small on this kind of stuff (with a few exceptions), but they’re not absent.
The Myers experiment seems less justifiable. Not sure how you hide someone’s defense next to Matt Kemp.
Hadn’t considered/didn’t realize the CF dimensions of Petco. It’s interesting, the Red Sox have used LF as a second 1B for years with mixed results but they’re probably right long term to maximize the offensive production from the position.
That whole Renfroe in center thing is just spring training Andy Green even said so. Hunter will be RF when the season starts.
I’m certainly no expert at digging through the data, but that never stopped anybody!
If you count Nelson Cruz as a full time DH, and remove all other outfielders from the Steamer dataset, Seattle projects to have the #7 OPS from Infielders+Catcher+DH in MLB. I’d use a better stat, but as I said, not an expert.
The six teams above them are (in order) Colorado, Washington, Houston, Texas, Cleveland, and Chicago (NL). A few bandboxes and a few NL clubs they aren’t competing with. So yeah, they can hit.
If you move to WAR, Seattle’s IF+C+DH are now #4 in MLB (behind Cleveland, Houston, LAD, and tied with SF).
If you’re going to punt one area of the team, it sure helps to be so strong in the rest of the offense.
Eno, one minor quibble with a terrific article:
McReynolds was never behind Strawberry on the depth chart.
The Mets employed a revolving door of sorts in LF on their ’86 championship team – Foster, Heep, Mazzilli, Mitchell, and Wilson in addition to a few random appearances by guys getting a cup of coffee in the majors and a reliever in the well-known Reds game that featured the Knight-Davis fight.
In order to avoid repeating this revolving door in 1987, the Mets acquired McReynolds in Dec 1986 and immediately installed him in LF and he had 639 PA in 1987.
If your point is that McReynolds would be behind Strawberry on the CF depth chart if either Strawberry (the everyday RF) or McReynolds (the everyday LF) had to play CF in an emergency, I don’t think that’s correct either…McReynolds would almost certainly have been the choice between Strawberry and McReynolds as McReynolds had far more experience in the minors and in the majors (with the Padres) in that role.
So who was the backup? Mookie? I was trying to figure out who was the fourth guy. Messed that up. Mookie and Lenny got 425 PA… guess it was one of them who was the fourth guy?
The ’87 Mets had a straight-up platoon in CF — Dykstra started the 102 games vs. RHP, and Mookie started the 60 vs. LHP — and the platooning continued in-game when the SP was removed. Straw and K-Mac had the corner starts to themselves, with Mookie filling in occasionally, and padding out his PAs with 38 trips as a PH.
What John said.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYM/1987-lineups.shtml
Mookie and Lenny sorta-platooned, with each being good enough that when McReynolds or Strawberry needed a break, Mookie and Lenny would each play regardless of the handedness of the opposing starter. When both were in, my recollection was that Dykstra went into center.
Usual 30-year memory caveat: I will prostrate before any Scoresheet-type research that proves that wrong.
If you squint, the Yankees had three centerfielders for much of last year in Gardner, Ellsbury, and Beltran. ….of course their collective defense was terrible.
At this stage of his career, ‘Centerfielder Beltran’ would need a lot more than squinting. More like ‘Crystal Meth goggling’.
For sure. I think it is interesting how a really good defensive outfielder can become a downright liability so quickly. It isn’t just speed that is lost. It must also be reads and reaction. ….yet he can still hit major league pitching.
Could be related to eyesight… can still read the spin 60’6″ away, but not 350′ away.
Might not be a big deal but Mariners play NL East this year for interleague games.
The M’s play only 34 of their 162 regular season games in parks outside of the AL West and NL East (just 21%). Granted there are some hitter friendly stadiums in each division (TEX, HOU and PHI for instance). Still, that seems like they have an insanely pitcher friendly schedule this year.
Instead of looking for outfields where they all played CF (which can’t happen two years in a row!), how about look for all three are “CF-quality”? Like either +0 fielding runs in center, or +10 in left/right to suggest they’d translate to a average CF.
If and when the cubs trot out jay, almora, heyward or even bryant, almora heyward I would say that’s a better outfield defensively.
I’m assuming that all the downvotes here are from people who are expecting Schwarber to be the starting LF. And he will be. But that doesn’t change the fact that the original poster’s premise is actually true: Heyward, Almora, and Jay/Bryant would be an exceptionally good defensive outfield … and I’d take the over on us seeing it in at least 50 games this season when Schwarber is either resting, DHing, (catching?) or replaced in the late innings.
Eno,
Do you like this trade at basically same price? Ryon Healy for jarrod dyson
I don’t know who they had in right, but some of those Barry Bonds-Andy Van Slyke teams must have had some good OF defense
Bobby Bonilla, so no.
…ok, that’s too flip. Bonilla was a third baseman 87-89 and departed in 92 so they had RJ Reynolds and (in 92) Alex Cole as a partner more than Bonilla. The 1989 outfield was like whoa, by the metrics–that’s the year Barry rode his defensive metrics to a seven or eight win season, and Reynolds had an atypically good year by the metrics part time, and Glenn Wilson had a +13 year taking the majority of the PT in right… all told they had a +77 TZ from the outfield, which is second-best since 1950 behind the 1991 Padres (Gwynn, Darrin Jackson, Thomas Howard, Jerald Clark).
It would also make sense to count outfields where the corner outfielders became center fielders later in their careers. I assume anybody who was a regular center fielder at some point could have also handled the position when he was younger. The 1985 Cardinals come to mind with Vince Coleman in left, Willie McGee in center, and Andy Van Slyke in right. Coleman became a center fielder with the Mets and Van Slyke became a center fielder with the Pirates and other teams.
Good theory. But Lance Berkman served as a centerfielder in his career, as well. There’s no indication I can find that Vince Coleman was ever good enough on defense to be considered a legit centerfielder.
There’s also the case of the 2000 Cardinals when the LF (Ray Lankford) and RF (J.D. Drew) had both previously been the regular CF before being moved when better defensive players where acquired, Drew in Lankford’s case, and Jim Edmonds in Drew’s case. This alignment lasted over a season and a half until Lankford was traded at the 2001 Trade Deadline.
I like how a suggested video thing pops up on the Youtube clip of the Dykstra collision right in the place on the screen my eyes are looking at 2 seconds before the collision happens. And it still pops up if you close it and rewind.
Arizona in 2013 had a fantastic outfield — the rookie Pollock in CF, their prior year’s CF Parra in RF, and ex-good-CF Cody Ross in LF. Fangraphs has them as that year’s 6th-, 2nd-, and 20th-best Def outfielders, respectively, even with Ross playing just 94 games.
The ’91 Padres of Tony Gwynn RF, Darrin Jackson CF and Thomas Howard LF were also spectactular by FG Def ratings — #1, #4 and #8 in MLB, all at least 15.0 (and Howard just 106 games). Jackson and Howard were legit CFs, and Gwynn played a lot there in ’88-89.
When Glenn Wilson joined Bonds and Van Slyke for most of ’89, they had 3 of the top 9 Def OFs. Wilson came up as a CF, didn’t really have the range but had a rifle, and the others were legit CFs.
Meanwhile, the 1980 Padres proved that speed alone does not make a good outfielder. CF Jerry Mumphrey went 52-5 in SB, LF Gene Richards was 61-16, and (ahem) Gold-Glove RF Dave Winfield was 23-7 — and all scored negative Def.
My favorite part is that they cleared out Parra and then stuck in Ender Inciarte later (not sure how much later). Whoever was GM back when they got all these guys (Towers? Byrnes?) did a ridiculous job of stockpiling CFers.
For several years, the late-70s Phillies had all-world Garry Maddox in CF, a very solid CF (Bake McBride) paying in right, and in left Greg Luzin — wait, nevermind.
This was a fun look at the Mariners’ new outfield, but there’s a couple of things I’d like to add.
First, are the Mariners really sacrificing offense for defense? I wouldn’t state anything definitively. Aoki was absolutely terrible in the first half last season and was anything but the stolen base threat they thought he would be. He came alive in a platoon role in August (with the brakes put on), but he was disappointing far more often than not over the course of the season, which is evidenced by the demotions. Smith was far more steady at the plate, but he isn’t a good base runner, and while Haniger still has to prove himself, it shouldn’t be shocking if he offers just as much (or more) than Smith when everything is weighed collectively in the end. He has considerable experience in the corners as well.
The bar isn’t that high for Dyson or Haniger, though the expectations are. The Mariners struggled to bring runners home last season and these two (plus Segura) shouldn’t get hung up nearly as often as their predecessors. There’s obvious value in that and I suspect if someone were to ask Dipoto if he believed he was clearly sacrificing offense for defense, you would tell you otherwise.
Second, the comparatives here are mostly with players who had played some CF, but weren’t really that good. The better comparatives here would be the 2003 Mariners (as noted) and the 2009 Mariners, which featured Chavez, Gutierrez, and Ichiro. Those outfields would represent the high bar, in my opinion, and by 2009, Ichiro had quite a bit of CF experience in MLB. It’s tough for me to buy into the collision fear, though Chavez had a nasty one with Figgins if I recall correctly.
The Mariners didn’t have to seek out defensive speedsters. Surely there were other players that could offer some kind of improvement from their 2016 options. But I easily see what Dipoto’s doing here. He didn’t just inject defense into the lineup, he injected much-needed speed, and did so with proven veterans and promising prospects. He raised the floor and has a vaulted ceiling.
Chavez collided with Yuniesky Betancourt. FIGGINS WAS NEVER A MARINER STOP TALKING NONSENSE.
You are correct with both statements. I realized my mistake while I was lying in bed about 2am last night. Needless to say it wasn’t the first time Betancourt or Figgins made for a sleepless night.
I’m surprised there’s no mention of the 2011 Angels. Vernon Wells, Torii Hunter and Peter Bourjos all were almost exclusively CFs in 2010. Hunter is the only one of the three to have not played every game in CF in 2010 and yet he still started 97 games there. Mike Trout had his cup of coffee that year as well, and was also a true CF.
Great catch, Skin Blues. Those three did meet Eno’s stated criteria of 50 CF games in Year N-1 and 100 games played in Year N. I’ll just guess that he actually used 50 CF *starts* as the first criterion, since Bourjos had 49 CF starts in 2010.
The 2011 Angels went 86-76. Not that that proves anything…
Like I needed another reason to be head over heels for James Paxton…
What I like about this is that DiPoto’s taking the weird tendencies of the home park and building a team around them. I remember Blengino talking about how hard it was to find players who could actually put the ball over the fence on a regular basis (although that was before they moved the fences in, so who knows now). So now, DiPoto says: The ball hangs in the air too long? Okay, let’s try and get as many balls in the air and as many center fielders to scoop them up. I love this approach to team building.
So it’s like the Whiteyball Cardinals of the 80’s, back when Busch Stadium II was a cavern with Astro Turf (both of which were later changed), so they decided to sacrifice power in favor of defense and speed and won 3 NL Pennants and a World Series with the philosophy.
The Red Sox are starting three center fielders. It’s not an experiment.
What about the 2015 Pirates? Before McCutchen’s defense took a downturn last year, I heard it commonly said that any of McCutchen, Marte, and Polanco could play a good center field. What’s more, they can all hit as well!