Sergio Romo’s No-Dot Slider Revealed

If you watch Sergio Romo hold a ball even for just a minute, it’s obvious how he found the grip for his unique slider. Just like every other part of the Giants’ reliever, his fingers can’t stop moving. He’s constantly fidgeting, so he can’t remember the exact moment he settled on his particular finger placement. He continues that fidgeting when it comes to his craft, really.

To Romo, the slider isn’t maybe as legendary as it sounds when you talk about it as his No-Dot Slider with capital letters. “It’s just different. I don’t really see it as ‘good’ or ‘special,'” he told me. But there was one compliment that meant something to the pitcher at one point.

More than 2000 sliders ago, Romo was a good middle reliever for the Giants as they headed to the World Series. There, he faced Bengie Molina, who had just been traded from the Giants to the Rangers. After the Giants won, Molina gave the reliever “the greatest compliment.” The catcher told Romo that “catching it and seeing it in the box were two completely different things,” and that “if I don’t have confidence in my stuff, I’m a waste of talent.”

“That’s pretty much where my career took off,” said a smiling Romo. And in terms of emotional and mechanical process, the comment was enough to affect change. “Confidence,” Romo comments — and then the willingness to throw the slider as often as possible. Before 2011, Romo threw the fastball more than 50% of the time — he hasn’t done that since, and he hasn’t topped 40% since 2011.

“The way I see my slider — other than different — is that it’s my 95,” said Romo. The slider has become his fastball, and his fastball has become the pitch he picks and chooses. “Just like other pitchers have to pick and choose with their breaking stuff because it’s not their best pitch,” Romo agreed.

The reason it works so well for Romo, though, is that no-dot approach. Most sliders spin around an axis that creates a red dot from the spinning seams. Like this:

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Perhaps because of the way Romo grips the pitch with his two fingers separated, or the fact that there’s so much white facing the batter because of the way he holds the seams, or because it’s a very horizontal pitch (with as much horizontal movement as the biggest curveballs) thrown from a low arm angle, there isn’t a tell-tale red dot on his slider.

RomoSlider
The grip on Romo’s no-dot slider.

The fact that it looks like a fastball in terms of spin has actually led to a few changes in his approach recently. He’s always had trouble against lefties, and he’s tried a few different things.

Romo’s first response to those problems has mostly been to go to the fastball more. PITCHf/x says Romo throws 60% fastballs to lefties; the pitcher says it was 80% sinkers to lefties. But that didn’t work either. “I started to fall behind on lefties because they were seeing like 80% sinkers away, and they could wait for a strike” Romo said, “and the best sinker or slider is a ball.”

Last year was the first time he threw a changeup over 10% of the time, and though the movement on the pitch was okay, it wasn’t the solution. And getting them to swing was the problem. “If it doesn’t look like a strike out of the hands, what’s the point?” asked Romo. The swing rate on his changeup is more than ten percentage points lower than on any other pitch.

So Romo has learned to change the movement on his slider: “I know how to throw a slower one with sink. A shorter one that is harder. A shorter one that isn’t as hard. The front door one. I throw it right at them knowing it’s going to get in there. I’ve learned how to get it down, but I struggle with really hitting the ground and spiking it because of my arm angle.”

If you use the filters, you can see that Romo is throwing the harder, faster slider with less movement to lefties. And though his overall numbers against lefties aren’t much better this year, Romo thinks this could be the key going forward. “I’ve gotten more swings and misses this year from lefties,” Romo said. “When I throw the slider, that shorter one that’s going more down and not into them, they’re not hitting it.”

Brooksbaseball-Chart-23

That’s the strategy behind the improved pitching this year — a new wrinkle on the no-dot.

There are other reasons for being better this year that won’t show up in a PITCHf/x query. When asked if his slider has more bite this year, Romo paused. He almost fell into this answer, but even thinking of whatever it was he was thinking of exactly got him choked up. Gone was the fidgeting, for just a second, and the voice slowed to almost a whisper. “I think maybe the focus has been better this year. I’ve had some rough moments. I shouldn’t say that I’ve been at my best or that I’ve been what my teammates needed at all times out there,” he said of last year.

romo-slider
The slider is back to full health. Thanks to PitcherGIFs for the image.

But things are better now. “It was getting back into the swing of things this year,” the reliever said. “Certain things, personal or not, that may translate or may affect you. Life is life. I’m noticing it in my breaking ball, and my demeanor on the mound. A little peace of mind.”

That peace of mind can’t give back what time takes away. Even a guy that has never seen higher than 93 on the gun is now down to 87 mph on the fastball. “As I’ve gotten older, I’m more 87, 88 and 90 is when I’m feeling good,” he laughed.

And he used to get a little bit of drop on his slider, but as his arm slot has dropped, so has the drop on his pitch. “The number of pitches I’ve thrown, I just can’t [get] the same feel for the same old slot,” he said of that slow change in his mechanics. Since we know release point has a lot to do with fastball rise, it’s no surprise to see this now:

Brooksbaseball-Chart-24

But that arm slot, combined with the no-dot grip, has given Romo a slider with few comps. Take a look at righty sliders that have been thrown at least 200 times, and he zooms to the top of the leaderboard. (Although if you call Corey Kluber’s breaking ball — with virtually the same grip and a similar arm slot — a slider, then Kluber is right there with him on this board with 9.4 inches of horizontal movement).

Most Horizontal Movement on a Righty Slider (min. 200 thrown)
Pitcher Count Avg Horizontal Movement
Vinnie Pestano 774 9.1
Sergio Romo 2886 8.8
Yu Darvish 2470 8.7
Josh Lueke 202 8.5
Bryan Shaw 879 8.3
Daniel Bard 921 8.3
Chaz Roe 300 8.3
Joe Smith 2043 8.1
Aneury Rodriguez 391 8.1
Kiko Calero 706 8.1

Other pitchers have their velocity, but when Romo throws his slider, he feels equal. “In my head, I’m throwing 95 with my slider,” Romo said with a self-knowing smile. But he was wrong about one thing. That pitch is good, and it is special.

Best Whiff Rates on Sliders since 2007 (min. 1000 thrown)
Pitcher Total Sliders Swinging Strikes swSTR%
Carlos Carrasco 1090 280 25.7%
Patrick Corbin 1133 290 25.6%
Rex Brothers 1197 306 25.6%
Greg Holland 2003 512 25.6%
Pedro Strop 1572 398 25.3%
Joel Hanrahan 1697 428 25.2%
Clayton Kershaw 4619 1062 23.0%
Michael Wuertz 2018 458 22.7%
Brad Lidge 2202 486 22.1%
Boone Logan 2149 474 22.1%
Joba Chamberlain 2294 505 22.0%
Jhoulys Chacin 2069 455 22.0%
Aaron Crow 1261 276 21.9%
John Smoltz 1243 272 21.9%
Al Alburquerque 2179 474 21.8%
Huston Street 2231 484 21.7%
Craig Kimbrel 1073 232 21.6%
Sergio Romo 2886 621 21.5%
Tyson Ross 3646 780 21.4%
Randy Choate 1120 239 21.3%





With a phone full of pictures of pitchers' fingers, strange beers, and his two toddler sons, Eno Sarris can be found at the ballpark or a brewery most days. Read him here, writing about the A's or Giants at The Athletic, or about beer at October. Follow him on Twitter @enosarris if you can handle the sandwiches and inanity.

30 Comments
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Chris
10 years ago

I really don’t like the Giants, but that last gif is ridiculous.

The Real Beard
10 years ago
Reply to  Chris

Romo will always be Brian Wilsons Bitch????????????????

JFern
10 years ago
Reply to  The Real Beard

Brian Wilson turned out to be a novelty! #whoiswhosebitchnow

John Myhill
10 years ago

But he hasn’t been better this year, he’s been worse. He hasn’t had a single catastrophic period like he did in June 2014 but in general he just hasn’t been very good. Except in the last few weeks when he’s started to look great again.

Dave in Oaktown
10 years ago
Reply to  John Myhill

How exactly has Romo been worse than in 2014? K/9, HR/9, FIP and xFIP are all better than any year since (and comparable to) 2011. BB/9 is higher than 2011, but about the same as the previous 4 years (2011 was absurd).
His BABIP looks like the only real outlier compared to the past; prior years was maybe lucky-good, this year is unlucky-bad?

Objectively he looks to be having a pretty good year.

mike w
10 years ago

I agree with you on the stats, but, in John Myhill’s defense, Romo has been so miserable against lefties, that Bochy has had to limit Romo’s exposure to LHBs.

This season, he’s faced only 51 lefties in 8.1 innings, so he’s on pace for 60-65-ish and 10-ish, respectively. By way of comparison, he faced 89 LHBs last season and 110 the season before.

So, his better statistics appear to result, at least in part, from his facing a greater proportion of righties. Based on that, I think you could reasonably argue that Romo has been worse in the sense that he’s been reduced to a sort of specialist, whereas, if were able to succeed against LHBs at even an average rate, he’d be closer to elite.

Ves
10 years ago
Reply to  John Myhill

If you’re looking purely at ERA, sure, but the process is better and is leading to more K’s. He’s had BABIP issues this year despite giving up essentially the same batted ball profile.

Matt
10 years ago
Reply to  John Myhill

I disagree. 2015 has arguably been his second best season. His K/9 (6th among relievers in MLB), K/BB (4th), and FIP (2nd) are ridiculous. Look at that sky high BABIP this year. It’s a blessing in disguise to have Casilla as the “closer,” as it allows Bochy to deploy Romo in high leverage situations between the 7th – 9th innings. This strategy is way more effective than reserving him for the 9th.

jacobfagan
10 years ago
Reply to  John Myhill

1.69 FIP this year compared to 3.94 FIP last year & his HR/9 has been divided by nearly 4 this year.

John Myhill
10 years ago
Reply to  jacobfagan

I’m a serious Giants fan and I’ve seen pretty much every time he’s pitched this year and believe me it’s hasn’t been good. He hasn’t been unlucky with the BABIP, he’s just made a lot of bad pitches, and way too much of the time his slider either hasn’t been breaking or is obviously going to be a ball. His walks are still low because he’s just giving in when he falls behind in the count, which is why his BABIP is high. If anything he’s been lucky against right-handed batters but against left-handed batters it’s been a disaster. Last year he had one disastrous stretch in June when he lost the closer job , that’s what exploded his FIP and HR/9, but other than that he was pretty solid, and before that he was much better than he is now. When you guys have actually watched him pitch half as much as I have instead of just referring to statistics, we can have an intelligent conversation about this. Matt, that would be true IF Bochy were using him as an anti-righty specialist to complement Lopez, but he hasn’t been doing this. He used to basically be the 8th inning guy but Bochy lost trust in him early in the season and didn’t really know how to use him (especially because Kontos was pitching so well and Lopez has been getting everyone out including right-handed batters, plus Strickland has been doing pretty well since they called him up). That said, in the last few weeks Romo’s radically improved, he’s been great, the slider is making everyone look bad, and this is consistent with his general career pattern, he tends to not really get into a groove until August.

Sam
10 years ago
Reply to  John Myhill

The plural of “anecdote” isn’t “data”.

Kellin
10 years ago
Reply to  John Myhill

.352 babip when his career average is .263 in front of one of the best defenses in baseball, and with a hard hit % that’s below his career average would lead me to see more bad luck than what you’re describing. He’s inducing more ground balls than he ever has before and more of them are finding holes in the infield. Before you reply, yes I do watch Giants baseball on the television regularly, terrible pre-game shows excluded of course.

CK
10 years ago
Reply to  jacobfagan

Sounds like a couple of memorable failures are stuck in your head and coloring your opinion of his broader performance. Nobody has a time machine to go back and watch all the games you claim to have watched, and if they did, they’d watch the same games and end up with a different opinion any way. So I’m betting that just about everyone on this site will have a different opinion of what makes an intelligent conversation about this topic than you seem to. Your status as a serious Giants fan doesn’t change the fact that Romo’s results have been much better this year, and citing your own opinion that he’s just been lucky isn’t convincing evidence to the contrary.

obsessivegiantscompulsive
10 years ago
Reply to  John Myhill

Just an FYI to those non-Giants fans, the rumor was that a disastrous personal breakup was what caused his bad June 2014, which costed him the closer’s job. Sergio was dancing around that when talking about personal or not, I believe.

I think the key to the Giants bullpen during the Core Four years (and including Wilson) is that, except for Wilson, being the closer was not a big deal to any of them because Bochy sold them that they were closers no matter when they were pitching. The saber issue with the closer label is that, assuming he’s your best relief pitcher, he’s now saved for the 9th inning when key high leverage situations happen often in the 7th and 8th as well.

Bochy not only uses his closers in the 8th inning sometimes, getting 4-5 outs, he has relievers with closer-like abilities pitching in the 7th and 8th. Dave Cameron wrote in an article when Affeldt was a free agent that the team signing him to be a reliever would be getting closer-talent at a reliever price, and any Giants fan knows that Affeldt has been used almost extensively in the 7th and 8th inning, and has mostly delivered closer-like performances. Remember, he was the guy Bochy entrusted to bridge to Bumgarner in Game 7. Lopez has been saying for years now that he could get out RH as well as LH, so I wasn’t surprised that he as doing it this season, just surprised that Bochy was finally using him this way, but now it appears that Bochy was trying to save Lopez’s arm (age?) before, but with Affeldt, Romo, and Casilla struggling at points during this season, he’s relied on Lopez for more, since he’s been the only consistent performer this season. And Romo’s had this slider for years, and the only reason he was made closer before was because Casilla faltered for a while. Else, Bochy has been saving him for important 7/8 inning work.

On top of that, to one commenter’s comment about Romo reaching his peak in August, all of the Core Four seems to reach their peak late in the season, all four have had double digit game stretches in the playoffs where they did not give up any runs. That’s shut down performance on the biggest stage.

John Myhill
10 years ago

This year I can’t remember one time when Bochy used Casilla before the 9th inning, do you? To some extent I think that Casilla has been the closer because he doesn’t have the lefty/righty gap that Lopez and Romo have and he doesn’t produce ridiculous numbers of double plays like Affeldt does, so they all have clear high-leverage usages in the 7th and 8th whereas Casilla doesn’t. Affeldt is best used in situations which are high-leverage because there are people on base, not because it’s the 9th inning. I don’t think that people who really know the Giants think that the reason that Casilla is the closer os because he’s their best reliever. And CK, on the contrary, Romo hasn’t really had specific disasters this year (that’s been Casilla’s speciality this year, if you actually followed baseball you might know this, and I’ve looked at way too many games to be overly affected in my judgement by a few foulup), it’s just general mediocrity (although he’s kicking ass again recently, including last night). Obviously most people on this site don’t look at many or any games where Romo is actually pitching (if the people writing here are any example of this) so they won’t have the same perception of someone who actually sees him pitch but I don’t think their opinion should count for much. And if you actually want to look at him pitching this season, you don’t need a time machine, all the games are on the internet. If you prefer to talk about baseball without actually looking at any games, that’s another matter.

Kellin
10 years ago
Reply to  John Myhill

Comments on articles about the Giants in which you

A) know more than everyone else in the room
B) watch more Giants games than everyone else in the room
C) completely disregard statistical accomplishments on a statistical website

obsessivegiantscompulsive
10 years ago

Wow, great explanation of why his slider is called no-dot, I’ve been wondering for years now. And great analysis showing how good it is for him.

Couldn’t happen to a nicer guy. I recall interview when he first came up, and he was a very humble appreciative guy, and he’s never lost that perspective, the few times I’ve heard him since. I’ve been rooting for him since that first exposure and, he makes it very easy to root for him.

And he is a Giants player through and through. He grew up in a Dodger’s household and his extended family are all big Dodger fans, so I would presume that he’s been under great pressure to move back down south, and thought he was a goner when he was a free agent last off-season, especially with LAD flashing all that cash, all the time. But he said in an interview after signing that he never gave a thought to signing elsewhere, that he understood why the Giants chose to deal with other issues (like chasing down Lester and others), but he said that he felt like, just give me 5 minutes of your time and we can get a deal done quickly and I’ll be out of your hair.

This article also shows that signing relievers to large contracts is not always crazy, that it can be worth it to get or keep an elite talent in your bullpen. How did you create the tables at the end of your article, are they easily created via FG’s tools? Could be a way to create a shopping list for GM’s (or Fantasy GM’s).

durn
10 years ago

That .gif is so slimy.

novaether
10 years ago

According to Brooks Baseball, Romo is technically getting more whiffs on his slider against lefties this year than last year, but it seems to be about his career average. Contrary to what he’s saying, he’s been awful against lefties this year.

He’s been deployed mainly against righties and his average stats thank him for it. His peripherals are going to outshine his ERA because a pinch hit lefty will bring that run home when the opposing team needs it.

The no-dot thing is pretty cool, but he’s still a slider-dominant sidearm righty. He’s going to struggle against lefties until he takes a page out of Pat Venditte’s book.

ElJimador
10 years ago

Thanks for the very insightful piece, Eno. BTW, interesting thing about Romo’s problem vs. lefties is that up until the past 2 seasons there’s been practically no evidence that Romo ever had such a problem. Sure he never posted the same absurdly high K rates vs. lefties as vs. righties yet he somehow managed to be quite effective getting them out anyway. In fact, even with the ugly platoon splits that have finally emerged in the past 2 season, Romo for his career has still held LHBs to .291 wOBA and .664 OPS against. Compare that to the splits posted by other current Giants pitchers over the same years (since 2008) and you’ll find that Romo has not only been better vs. lefties than Cain and Lincecum (their peak years included), but better than Casilla and every other Giants RHP and even better than the Affeldt.

The sad fact is that the Giants have managed to fan the perception for so long that Romo has problems with lefties that even Romo himself came to believe it. First he abandoned his slider vs. lefties when there was no reason to think he needed to and now that being a purely sinkerball pitcher vs. LHB has led to much worse results, now he’s trying to circle back to where he started but his confidence is shot. I don’t question much of what the Giants have done over their current run but I wish they would have just left Romo alone. Maybe his early career success vs. LHB was always more luck than anything else and would have eventually been exposed. But to me it seems more like they beat for so long on the notion that Romo had this platoon issue, when no real evidence for it existed, that they got inside Romo’s head with it and created a problem that didn’t need to be.

Kyle Awalt
10 years ago

Once again you’ve left me confused with how you talk about horizontal and vertical movement and how they relate to curves and sliders. “…or because it’s a very horizontal (almost curve-ball esque) pitch thrown from a low arm angle.” If you throw a pitch with horizontal movement, you’re throwing a slider. Sliders can move sideways, downwards (sharply, with little to no hump) or both, like a “slurve”, but curve balls move mostly downward. This is because they are thrown with the fingers pointing toward firstbase and coming over top of the ball on release. This gives top spin. This causes downward movemen. That is a curveball. It’s main feature is vertical movement. I’m not sure why you continually suggest otherwise.

Kyle

Kyle Awalt
10 years ago
Reply to  Eno Sarris

I certainly won’t try to argue the numbers, but I think the reason for why I’m disagreeing with how you make points about horizontal movement by referencing curve balls is because that sideways movement is more a consequence of the fact that curves are in the air longer than sliders (start higher, move slower), not because they are designed to move that way. If I were going to try to emphasize the fact that a pitch moves horizontally, I would reference a sweeping slider (remember Jeff Nelson? He threw a slider, not a curve). Referencing a curve ball to talk about horizontal movement is strange because it’s not the main feature of the pitch. There’s even a name given to curves which move sideways to differentiate them – “slurve.”

Kyle Awalt
10 years ago
Reply to  Kyle Awalt

In fact, the average amounts of movement for the slider and curve show that the slider moves more in the X direction than it does in the Y (over 2 times as much) while the curve is given about equal movement in each direction. So the main feature of a slider is its X movement, while I suppose by these numbers you could argue that a curve features both equally… but to me, a true curve is a 12-6 curve. As much Y as possible with as little X.

Kyle Awalt
10 years ago

Last one, just for fun and to try to be as clear with my point as possible. My problem is that it seems as though you feel like if a slider is thrown with more X movement than an average slider then it is becoming more like a curve simply because the numbers say curves have more X than sliders. But to me this is wrong. A slider with more X than another slider is still a slider. This is where the Jeff Nelson example works. It’s becoming a sweeping slider, not a curve.

mike w
10 years ago

Really good stuff, but the bit about his success versus lefties is a little misleading, I think.

It’s not strictly true that he’s never had success against lefties, albeit he’s been far better against righties. Roughly speaking (using wOBA), he was very good against lefties in 2008-9, but got worse every year until 2012, when he murdered lefties. He was pretty bad against lefties in 2013 and has gotten worse each year, culminating in a disastrous performance against them this year — .471 wOBA, 1.101 OPS.

Just looking at the surface, then, it seems like he should stop tinkering and return to what gave him relative success. If he were even just average against lefties, his performance against righties would make him elite, or nearly so.

mike w
10 years ago
Reply to  Eno Sarris

I agree with everything in your response — he has often been used as a ROOGY, and the one-year 10% change up experiment was clearly unsuccessful.

But, with all due respect, I think this sidesteps the issues I broached, which is that the sub-thesis you promote regarding the success of his approach to lefties (and its impact on his overall success) is very misleading.

It’s simply not true that “He’s always had trouble against lefties”. Though he has had more trouble with lefties than righties, he’s had some passably good seasons against lefties — most of that success came before 2013, however.

In contrast, it is true that “his overall numbers against lefties aren’t much better this year”, but this way of wording it suggests something that is not true — that he seems to be making progress or that his new approach is bearing fruit or that his performance against lefties is a causal factor in his improved numbers this season. In fact, his overall numbers against lefties are by far the worst numbers of his career, so he has been reduced, for the first time in a while, to pretty much strictly a ROOGY.

So, maybe part of the answer is reducing the number change ups, but it doesn’t appear that turning those into sliders of any variety is the solution.

I know you point out that he throws 60% sinkers to lefties, but his overall sinker proportion is down, so perhaps it’s the balance of sinkers and changes, rather than changes and sliders, that has given him moderate success against lefties in the past. I (obviously) have no idea, but whatever the cause, he keeps getting worse against lefties, and he’s a total disaster against them this season.

So, whatever the explanation of his improvement, it has to depend on an explanation of his greater dominance against righties, not any improvement against lefties.

Zak
10 years ago

As a Giants fan and a Romo fan: it’s definitely good to see Romo having more success with the slider. That said all laterally breaking sliders toward the 1b side feed lefty power strokes, it will never be a + pitch to lefties as such. One can’t help but wonder what if he had mastered the changeup or a pitch that was similarly devastating to lefties. As it is now Romo is nearly a ROOGY, but not quite.