So the Mets Might Be Contenders

As it stands this morning, there are five teams in the National League that have at least a 50% chance of reaching the postseason, according to our Playoff Odds forecasts. The three top teams are the same three that everyone had winning their divisions before the year began; the Dodgers, Cardinals, and Nationals. The fourth team — or first Wild Card, if you want to make it sound a little better — is the Padres, whose winter moves made the largest splash the world has seen since Noah decided to build an ark. And finally, as you’ve likely surmised from reading the headline, there’s the New York Mets, currently given exactly a 50/50 chance of reaching the postseason this year.

Yep, that puts the Mets ahead of the Pirates and Cubs, the two young darlings of the Central, each with rosters more stacked with young talent. It also puts the Mets well ahead of the Marlins, a trendy pre-season pick to make a run this year, but instead are a team that is reportedly considering firing their manager after getting their clocks cleaned in Queens over the weekend. After that four game sweep, the Marlins now find themselves seven games behind the Mets; it’s the largest gap between any two division rivals in baseball.

Of course, it’s still really early. It’s April 19th, and because the season started a week later this year, that date is even more deceiving than usual. We’re two weeks into a 26 week race. After 13 games last year, the Brewers were 10-3, standing with the best record in baseball; they went 72-77 after that point and finished six games behind the two Wild Card teams. While the games that have been played still count and can’t be taken away, a 10-3 start doesn’t mean the Mets are really a great team.

But that’s the thing about baseball in 2015; they don’t really need to be. They don’t even need to be particularly good, because in this day and age, a hot start and a roster that doesn’t suck makes you a contender.

The NL in 2015 is broken into four distinct tiers: there are the obvious division favorites, the Wild Card contenders, the Wild Card pretenders, and the Phillies. A visual representation might help.

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2015-national-league-projected-wins

Thanks to a strong start and a legitimately strong pitching staff, the Mets find themselves squarely in the seoncd tier. In reality, they probably aren’t as good as the Padres, Pirates, or Cubs, but the good news is that they don’t have to be. Their 10-3 start isn’t really predictive of anything — especially since their underlying BaseRuns performance suggests that a more normal distribution of those same events would have led to a 7-6 record at this point — other than the fact that the Mets just don’t need to win as many games going forward as their competitors do.

Our forecasts have the Mets as essentially a .500 team, which lines up nicely with their context-neutral performances so far. Their offense is mostly fine — though it will be tested now that they’re losing Travis D’Arnaud and are already without David Wright — with enough decent hitters to make up for the fact that they lack great ones. Their defense is very good at some spots (think center field) and less great at others (yeah, Wilmer Flores is still their shortstop). They run the bases okay. Their bullpen is not horrible, and could be better than that if Bobby Parnell comes back as a contributor.

And the rotation could very well be excellent, especially once they kick Dillon Gee out of it. Matt Harvey and Jacob DeGrom look like a formidable pair at the front, while Bartolo Colon refuses to age, and Jon Niese is a perfectly serviceable mid-rotation starter. With Rafael Montero set to join the rotation soon, and Noah Syndergaard and/or Steven Matz coming later this summer, the Mets have one of the best starting staffs in baseball.

Combine three parts meh with one part awesome and you end up with an alright team that won’t embarrass itself, and in the 2015 National League, that’s a Wild Card contender; especially when staked to an early lead over the other race-runners. I’m not going to argue that the Mets are as good as the Padres, Pirates, or Cubs, because I don’t think they are. The Padres can hit in a way that the Mets can’t. The Pirates have the NL’s best player and a better supporting cast of position players, plus a magical wand that forces opponents to hit the ball directly into their extreme defensive alignments. The Cubs have upside stacked on top of upside. All these things have stuff the Mets don’t have.

But the Mets have 10 wins, which is something that Chicago, Pittsburgh, and San Diego don’t have, and it’s not any better to have an extra +3 WAR player on your team than it is to have an extra three wins already in the bank. If you thought the Mets were a .500 team at the start of the year, then their current position is not much different than if they’d traded a Shake Shack Concrete for Ian Desmond on Opening Day.

We go through this every April, but it’s always worth repeating; regression to the mean doesn’t mean that a team (or player) that has had a good run is due for an offsetting bad run in order to even things out. That’s the gambler’s fallacy, and life doesn’t work that way. The Mets haven’t played well enough that we should dramatically alter our expectations of what they’re going to do going forward, but now, .500 ball for 24 weeks gets you an 85 win finish. And while 85 wins probably doesn’t get you the Wild Card, that’s the mean forecast out of a range of expected outcomes, and it doesn’t take very many things going New York’s way before that 85 turns into 88 or 89.

They could almost get there by taking the ball away from Dillon Gee and being aggressive on the trade market early in the year, limiting the number of at-bats and innings that have to go to replacement level players. Right now, we’re projecting 357 plate appearances for John Mayberry, because we don’t think Michael Cuddyer or Curtis Granderson can play the outfield all year long. You don’t have to look too terribly hard to find an outfielder better than John Mayberry, and if the Mets can scrounge up a solid fourth outfielder, all of the sudden this is a team projected to end the year with 86 or 87 wins.

In reality, the Mets are probably still the 7th or 8th best team in the National League, but they’ve already collected 10 irrevocable wins, and the 4th, 5th, and 6th best teams in the NL aren’t exactly monsters. The NL Wild Cards will be won by two flawed teams that likely over-perform their actual abilities by a half dozen games or so. The Mets are already further down that path than anyone else, and while it’s easy to look at this roster and see a bunch of question marks, there really does appear to be enough here to make September interesting at Citi Field.





Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.

177 Comments
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Newest Most Voted
Owen
11 years ago

First I would like to say: Great Job Dave! I always love reading a piece when you wrote it. I’m a Mets fan, so this was a must-read to me.

A few Questions:
1. Who will come up first: Syndergaard or Matz? I personally like Matz better, and that Syndergaard hasn’t really had a good season in his minor league career.

2. Flores has been swinging the bat a little so do you think the mets should sign a backup, who is good defensively for late game situations?

3. I also think the Mets need some BATS off the bench to pinch hit. I was thinking the Mets could easily get Allen Craig. The Sox are probably eager to trade him, and he’s got some pop leftover from ’13.

4. With Blevins hurt, does the plot thicken for a LHRP? Should the Mets call up Matz to the pen?

Thanks and anyone who sees this can answer!

nedimyer
11 years ago
Reply to  Owen

I’m clearly not Dave Cameron, but I found your questions and posts interesting. Matz’s K rate has been down as he’s been promoted so I would think he needs some more time. And you nailed it with Syndergaard. As far as Craig, it seems that the Red Sox would definitely trade him for next to nothing, but should the Mets get him? He’s a strikeout machine right now, more so than ever, and even if he does have some pop left, it would be harder to utilize that at Citi than at Fenway. Anyways, just my thoughts on those two questions.

David G
11 years ago
Reply to  Owen

1. Syndergaard
2. No. Tejada is a below average starter but an above average backup.
3. Mets bench looks pretty solid to me.
4. No, no they should definitely not. They currently have two lefties in the bullpen (albeit one with reverse splits).

attgig
11 years ago
Reply to  Owen

my $.02
1) besides those two, it seems the media consensus to be called up first is Montero, not syndergaard or matz.
2) they already have Tejada as the late defensive replacement. not sure how much better they could do in the trade market
3) not a Craig fan, especially if it means giving anything up for him.
4) easily moves up A Torres in high leverage lefty. The question is how Gilmartin fares now. If Gilmartin proves legit over the next couple of weeks, they have enough LHRP in the pen. if not, Gilmartin gets returned, and i think Leatherstich gets a shot in the pen before they move Matz over.

David G
11 years ago
Reply to  attgig

Leatherstich has reverse splits, though. He may get the call sooner or later regardless if he’s finally gotten his walks under control.

Trotter76
11 years ago
Reply to  David G

Montero is getting the spot start on April 28 for 2 reasons: 1) his service time clock is already started; and 2) it will be a straight spot start, it’s not a spot in the rotation. If we get to May and there is an injury to a starter, I think either Syndy or Matz comes up, depending on who is pitching better.

As for Leathersich, he has maintained control for a very small sample, but he was wild in ST as he has been throughout his MiLB career. If he shows these gains are for real he could get a shot, especially if the bullpen keeps on getting injuries.

I don’t see Alderson trading for either a SS in the near term or Craig at all. Craig is signed through 2017 for 26.5 mil minimum, even if they decline the $13 mil option for 2018. That’s a lot of money for the Mets with no place to play him. The goal as I imagine it is to have Cuddyer and Granderson replaced at the end of their contracts by Conforto and Nimmo, but of course a lot can change between now and then.

stevenam
11 years ago
Reply to  David G

Leatherstich has never, ever gotten the BB’s under control over any extended period. He and his heater seem to be fool’s gold.

The Maddness
11 years ago
Reply to  Owen

1. I think Montero gets the call-up first. Also, Syndergaard has had a very good season. In 2013 he was extremely good when you combine his High-A and AA numbers.

2. They already have Ruben Tejada for this role.

3. Allen Craig is done. He strikeouts a ton and his BABIP has severely regressed. Mayberry is good vs. LHP (.862 career OPS/132 wRC+ and Kirk Nieuwenhuis is good vs. RHP(.741 OPS/107 wRC+ career, .855 OPS/136 wRC+ in 2014)

4. No way Matz gets called up for a bullpen role. They have Alex Torres, who is a LHP, but doesn’t dominated LHB like Blevins did.

Adam
11 years ago
Reply to  The Maddness

Montero was sent down to be stretched out to start. He’s already been penciled in for a spot start on April 28th.

vivalajeter
11 years ago
Reply to  Owen

FWIW, I recall reading something from Keith Law a month or two ago where he mentioned that he hasn’t spoken to a single front office exec who likes Matz more than Syndergaard. There was hype around Matz because people like to hype newer names, but there’s a reason Syndergaard was the higher ranked player on every list.

Met guy
11 years ago
Reply to  Owen

Flores isn’t a shortstop, any legit contender would have a proven player at such a premium position. It’s time they trade for a real SS and keep Tejada as a backup as he’s been great off the bench. Flores at short= joke.

Christian
11 years ago
Reply to  Met guy

Yankees weren’t a legit contender when they had Jeter out there? It’s Wilmer’s defense you’re talking about, right? Jeter sucked defensively other than a couple of good years. It’s Wilmer’s bat that’s keeping him up here. He’s more than fine. He’s got a 105 wRC+ right now and the average for a shortstop is 85. Lay off the kid and let him develop the same way we let d’arnuad develop.

Spa City
11 years ago
Reply to  Christian

Agreed about Jeter’s defense. But his hitting and base running was so good he could still put up 5 to 6 WAR seasons while giving up 10 defensive runs a year.

stevenam
11 years ago
Reply to  Christian

Jeter is a good comp. Flores has a chance to be a solid contributor offensively; not Jeter to be sure, but a player. With Tejada backing him up for the glove, ss is ok.

Montero is the next man up in the rotation.

francis
11 years ago
Reply to  Christian

Re Jeter: Notice how much better the Yankees are this year than last.

The Maddness
11 years ago
Reply to  Met guy

Really? Any legit contender?

Ian Desmond can’t seem to play defense to save his life, career -24 DRS and UZR -3.6.

The Dodgers seem ok with 36 year old Jimmy Rollins. -23 DRS over the past 5 seasons.

As much as I love Jose Reyes, his -53 DRS over the last 5 years looks ugly. Yet, I don’t hear anyone complaining about him at SS.

Those are 3 legit contenders who are just hitters who happen to play SS at this point. The biggest difference is that Wilmer is at LEAST 6 years younger than all of them.

Omar Minaya
11 years ago

Thanks to me for making this team what it is today.

Sandy Alderson
11 years ago
Reply to  Omar Minaya

All Kudos to you Omar.

Ed Wade
11 years ago
Reply to  Omar Minaya

Just like I made the Phillies what they were from 2007-2011, right?

Nate
11 years ago
Reply to  Ed Wade

Shhh, you’re not supposed to give Ruben Amaro any credit for anything. Don’t you know where you are?

Gene Michael
11 years ago
Reply to  Omar Minaya

And just like it was ME and Watson who made the Yankees the dynasty they were, right?

Cashman who?

The Maddness
11 years ago
Reply to  Omar Minaya

Did you make the Dickey for d’Arnaud/Syndergaard trade? (Also then using John Buck as a piece to get Dilson Herrera and Vic Black)

Did you make the right call of Duda over Ike? (I’ll admit, I didn’t like it at first, but that’s why I don’t work in a front office)

Did you make the Beltran for Wheeler trade?

Did you make the correct call of signing Wright to a long-term deal, and not Jose Reyes? (sorry fellow Mets fans, but Reyes just cannot stay healthy)

Did you draft or sign for the following players? Montero, Plawecki, Amed Rosario, Brandon Nimmo, Michael Conforto? This is the reason why the Mets have a top 5 farm system now. It is not top heavy.

Here’s the list of first round picks you made Omar: Mike Pelfrey, Eddie Kunz, Nathan Vineyard, Ike Davis, Reese Havens, Bradley Holt…and Matt Harvey. I guess 1/7 isn’t bad.

Zen Madman
11 years ago
Reply to  The Maddness

At the risk of getting into a protracted Minaya v. Alderson debate:

1) Plucked Dickey out of the haystack.

2) Drafted both of them.

3) Signed Beltran in the first place, which no one seemed to think the Mets would do. Turned out to be one of the best FA acquisitions in Mets history.

4) Wright hasn’t exactly been keeping healthy, either.

5) Minaya (and/or his guys) were the ones who spotted Montero. Yes, Alderson has made some good acquisitions.

6) Examining only first-round picks is an excellent way to ignore the acquisition of guys like deGrom, Matz, Lagares, Flores, Duda, Mejia, Familia, Parnell, Gee, Niese, and others.

Just as it’s ridiculous to attribute all of this team’s success to Minaya, it’s absurd to ignore the contribution he made to the stockpile of young talent in the system and on the MLB team.

Za
11 years ago
Reply to  Zen Madman

Minaya was an excellent judge of talent. That said, his FO gave out bad contracts, had trouble building benches and bullpens, and struggled in player development. Sandy is this team’s architect.

Zen Madman
11 years ago
Reply to  Zen Madman

Fair enough, though I think Minaya built pretty solid 25-man rosters. His failure came in constructing a 40-man roster with enough depth to withstand the inevitable injuries.

If Sandy is this team’s architect, then Minaya was its quarry. Or maybe just a good excavator. (That said, the 06-08 Mets were more than a little good. He doesn’t get enough credit for that.)

Trotter76
11 years ago
Reply to  Zen Madman

Za and Zen Madman: I think you both make excellent points.

Just_Da_Damaja
11 years ago
Reply to  Zen Madman

The problem with the 2005-2009 mets is that Omar didnt inherit the guys he drafted.

had the 2005-2009 mets had Ike/Duda/Lagares/Harvey/Degrom/Flores

no need to sign Delgado, Castillo and all the other quicker fixer uppers Omar signed/traded for.

it was patch-work, on the fly, going up a mountain, 100 mph.

everything has to absolutely work perfectly to make it that fast.

hence why Duaner Sanchez ordering takeout vs delivery was the difference between us having a lockdown pen and a right-handed bat vs good lefties ( Nady )

If the 2006 mets had Mejia/Familia/Parnell/Montero/Lagares, you have ur bat vs LHP and a plethora of good pitching.

now in terms of giving Sandy credit, im not sure what his mission was here from 2010-2014…

if he was merely trying to cut costs and save money, why spend almost 300 million on guys on the back end of their careers, just to tread water….

DW – 140 mil
Granderson – 60
————————

thats 200 mil right there…

Cuddyer – 21
Colon – 20
Frank Francisco – 12
CY – 7.25

———————-

thats about 60 mil right there…

there are a bunch of other cases,

rauch for 3.5 mil

so on and so forth…

add it all up, and Sandy spent roughly 300 mil on new contracts during a “rebuilding” period…

and traded only 2 players he inherited for top prospects ( beltran/dickey ) …and only 1 player he acquired himself ( byrd )

there has never been a true rebuilding period in Queens since 1997.

its been contending, mixed with pretending to contend.

1980-1983 – rebuilding
1984-1990 – contending
1991-1992 – pretending to contend ( although they did try )
1993-1997 – half-ass rebuilding
1998-2001 – contending
2002-2003 – basically 1991/1992 all over again
2004 – pretending to contend
2005-2009 – halfass – contending
2010-2014 – halfass- rebuilding

that sums up the mets for the past 30+ years

Metsfan
11 years ago
Reply to  Omar Minaya

If Omar had remained GM, I have no doubt the current Mets team would look very much different today. Omar would have reshaped and extended the same base of talent that was in place in 2010 in a very different way – good or bad. Omar was too impetuous and didn’t have the patience to build through the farm system. By now, he would have traded off many of the bright young arms from the system for middling or proven but aging talent and many overpriced risky contracts.

Omar would have signed Reyes to a long-term extension. How is that contract working out now? And so it would have meant no Plawecki to come up when the starting catcher got hurt, not to mention the Mets probably don’t even have d’Arnaud to begin with because Omar probably wouldn’t or couldn’t have made the Dickey for d’Arnaud/Thor trade.

The 2015 Mets are Alderson’s vision/creation. It is uniquely his. Yes, he used some of his predecessor’s parts to build his team (as do most successful GMs), so for that Omar should get some credit. But the sum of the whole is totally Alderson’s.

IMO, it’s most fair to say it’s Alderson’s team with an assist from Omar.

Alderson is certainly not without his faults as a GM, but as a Mets fan I can honestly say I much prefer his approach to team building than Omar’s.

Zen Madman
11 years ago
Reply to  Metsfan

Omar traded very few high-level prospects. And the building through the farm v. through free agency has as much to do with the Wilpons’ finances as it does with anything GM-related.

Player development has become a huge strength under Alderson, but I give much of the credit to DePodesta. The credit Alderson deserves is mostly due to trades and the acquisition of DePodesta.

3D
11 years ago
Reply to  Zen Madman

>>>>Omar traded very few high-level prospects. And the building through the farm v. through free agency has as much to do with the Wilpons’ finances as it does with anything GM-related.<<<<

Disagree, because "the Wilpon's finances" were just as much in jeopardy in 2009 and 2010 — the Madoff scandal broke in December 2008 — and yet they still piled more crap onto the manure heap in those two offseasons.

The building through the farm happened starting in November 2010, because the Mets looked around, saw the second-most expensive team in MLB that was really really shitty, and correctly assessed that they had no future in sight because the farm system was equally as barren as the MLB team.

So they fired the dipshit responsible and hired a team of guys to clean up the mess, which required slashing payroll.

I think the Madoff stuff is a big red herring, "correlation is not causation"-type non-factor in this process.

Metsfan
11 years ago
Reply to  Zen Madman

No, but he would have, which is my point. There was very little talent in the farm system when Omar took over. He drafted or signed some nice pieces, but by the time they were developed or ready for the majors, Omar had already bankrupted the team with lots of bad contracts and thus he was fired. Given time, I believe he would have traded a lot of those young developing chips in for aging veterans on bad contracts.

While building through the farm is something that makes financial sense for the Wilpons now, that wasn’t a mandate when Omar took over. He had a choice. At that time he chose the quick but very expensive and ultimately fatal route to success — one which mortgaged the future.

That seems to have been Omar’s tendencies in the past even before he became GM of the Mets. So I believe he would have continued along that reckless path had he remained GM.

Also, acquiring and drafting talent is one thing. Developing it is quite another. I don’t think Omar was as good at developing talent as Alderson and his crew are.

Zen Madman
11 years ago
Reply to  Zen Madman

The notion that the Mets were somehow bankrupted by their payroll is absurd. The Wilpons basically embezzle money out of the franchise through an under-market TV deal with SNY. This whole losing money thing is an illusion.

And no, you can’t assume what Minaya would have done if given a different edict. He wasn’t just given a choice to do whatever he wanted. He had to win fast because of the SNY launch, and then again for the CitiField launch. Succeeded on the first one, failed miserably on the second.

Metsfan
11 years ago
Reply to  Zen Madman

No. Using the term “bankruptcy” to describe the “team” as it was when Alderson took over is not absurd. Remember, we’re talking the team here, not Sterling Enterprises. The “team” was stifled by an abundance of bad expensive contracts, aging or mediocre talent, and an upper farm system that was basically empty.

All teams who own their own RSNs basically “embezzle” money out of the franchise through under market TV deals. The Wilpons are no different from other owners in their situation.

As for making assumptions, aren’t those who are saying this is Omar’s team making the big assumption that he would have developed that talent the same successful way Alderson has done? So everyone is making assumptions here, and I’m at least going by Omar’s past track record — his propensity to sign over-the-hill and expensive veterans to bad contracts while undervaluing the farm system. This is something he did in Montreal as well. And, yes, I know Montreal was in danger of contraction, but that’s no excuse for the way he pissed away their farm system for short term results.

As for having to win fast, it was Omar who had to sell the Wilpons on the idea of spending tons of money to build a winner fast — he was NOT given a mandate contrary to your statements. Omar has no excuse for all those bad contracts.

Metsfan
11 years ago
Reply to  Zen Madman

“The credit Alderson deserves is mostly due to trades and the acquisition of DePodesta.”

The way you chose to describe DePodesta as “acquired” is interesting … as if Alderson simply went out and bought him and he was not a part of a well thought out process a GM might go through to try to improve a team. Who someone hires is crucial and should go into the equation when evaluating a GM — or any executive really. You can’t divorce the two. Omar puts Bernazard in charge of his farm system. Alderson hires DePodesta. That says a ton about the differences between Omar and Sandy.

Just_Da_Damaja
11 years ago
Reply to  Metsfan

“some of his predecessor’s parts to build his team”

some?

an entire rotation, an entire bullpen, and almost every position player is not some.

this is what the 2015 mets inherited

their…

CF
1B
2B
SS
3B
Harvey
Degrom
Niese
Gee

Mejia
Parnell
Familia

thats not “some”

thats damn near the whole team !

sorry, but this revision is really bad.

Just_Da_Damaja
11 years ago
Reply to  Just_Da_Damaja

5 out of 8 position players
4/5 of a rotation
and almost an entire bullpen
along with their backup 3B ( soup ) backup SS ( tejada ) backup OF ( Kirk )

thats roughly 16 out of 25 players…

thats “some” ?

Metsfan
11 years ago
Reply to  Just_Da_Damaja

Really? You’re upset over the word “some?”

Note these players NOT drafted or acquired by Omar:

Colon
Wheeler (Gee is merely a sub for Wheeler)
Blevins
C. Torres
A. Torres
Carlyle
Gilmartin
Cuddyer
Granderson
d’Arnaud (and his replacement Plawecki)
Recker
Wright (drafted by Phillips)
Muno
Mayberry

That’s over half the current roster.

And regardless of semantical nitpicking, you miss the point. Which is had Omar remained GM, the roster most likely looks massively different from the current one.

Most GMs acquire significant parts from the previous regime. Ask Pat Gillick (hint: Phillie 2007) or Dave Dombrowski. What matters most is how you develop those parts in the case of prospects and HOW you build upon those parts and mix in complementary talent to create a winner.

I have no belief that Omar would have been able to build a winner had he stayed on as GM without making more bad contracts and spending more and more massive amounts of money — certainly much more than the current payroll of roughly $100 million.

Davygrolton
11 years ago
Reply to  Just_Da_Damaja

“An entire bullpen”
2/3 of the relievers you listed have yet to throw a pitch this year. Even if they did, 3 relievers isn’t even half a bullpen.

Christian
11 years ago
Reply to  Just_Da_Damaja

Just so everyone knows, this dude got kicked off a Mets forum for saying CREEPY things about someone’s kid. He’s in his 40s. I’d stop replying/engaging with him. SUPER weird.

Fonzie13
11 years ago
Reply to  Just_Da_Damaja

Give it up dude. You know damn well Omar would’ve traded Duda to make room for Ike and reseigned no (No d’Arnaud, Noah, Becerra and never get the hauls for Beltran and Byrd. He has not one deal like that to his name for his entire career. Any monkey could make a salary dump deal which was what LaDuca, Delgado amd Johan Santana was. He even insisted Carlos Gomez be included instead of F-Fart. All the players you see except for Flores, Lagares, murphy and Gee were signed by scouts Steve Phillips signed. Omar had zero impact on the draft here, their scouts were already here when Omar got het and they drafted under the same philosophy as Phillips did. Omars impact will be from the International amateurs they signed not to mention letting Montero go unsigned to sign 12 other scrubs. He was a so called talent evaluator who has one juiced up player to his name yet he wasn’t employed as a talent evaluator with fhe Mets he was employed to build a sustainable winner and he crippled the organization with his contracts as well as their ridiculous clauses like no arbitration to Beltran and a 17.5 million dollar option to K-Rod. We’ve suffered as fans because of him for 6 years, he gets no credit for what’s taking place now.

3D
11 years ago
Reply to  Omar Minaya

Except that, if you were running the team still, all these guys would have been traded off for 37-year old sixth-inning bullpen mediocrities or guys who are 73 years old now making $19 million per season.

Old School
11 years ago

Team ERA of 3.00 is not that good.

Jason B
11 years ago
Reply to  Old School

C’mon, that wasn’t even good trolling.

Bobby Bonilla
11 years ago
Reply to  Jason B

Meanwhile, you missed the opportunity to troll Mets fans by making your name Jason Bay.

Jason Hussein Obama
11 years ago
Reply to  Bobby Bonilla

I can’t do that! No one ever lies on the internet!

(Wait, this really IS Bobby Bo I’m responding to, right??)

George
11 years ago

So I’m wondering what the difference between regression to the mean and the gambler’s fallacy is. Can the gambler’s fallacy be described as an expectation of regression *past* the mean, in order to offset the team outperforming their projection?

Jon L.Member since 2016
11 years ago
Reply to  George

Yes. The gambler’s fallacy says a run of good hands means you’re due for a run of bad hands; regression means unexpected performance (like a run of good hands) will probably be followed by more expected performance (like a closer to normal run of hands).

Zen Madman
11 years ago
Reply to  Jon L.

I think fewer people would get confused if the term were regression towards the mean, since the overall (expected) result will approach the mean (previously expected result), but never really get there.

Smart Aleck
11 years ago
Reply to  Zen Madman

Reversion to the mean?

Zen Madman
11 years ago
Reply to  Zen Madman

His words, not mine.

joser
11 years ago
Reply to  Zen Madman

And regression can be upwards when a team has been underperforming, even though in casual usage we tend to only apply the word in cases where the regression is downwards. You can have positive regression towards the mean, just like you can have negative acceleration.

Pale HoseMember since 2025
11 years ago
Reply to  George

Regression to the mean: Mets are 10-3 (.769). They are projected as a .500 team. If they win half of there remaining games they would be 84.5-77.5 (.522). They’re winning percentage regressed toward the mean.

Gambler’s fallacy: Met’s are projected to be a .500 team. They started off 10-3, which means they will go 71-78 they rest of the way to finish 81-81 (.500).

Jason B
11 years ago
Reply to  Pale Hose

Well said!

francis
11 years ago
Reply to  Pale Hose

Even if you round up, 85-77 is not really “contending”. Thanks for making my point for me.

I guess if you call mathematically in it until Sept 20th contending, then ok.

I’d say contending is within 3 games of a playoff spot at any point after Labor Day. I can’t see this team doing that, unless Familia racks up 65 saves.

Jason B
11 years ago
Reply to  francis

You don’t think 85-77 is heavily in contention in the NL this year?

……………………alrighty then.

Bruce Bochy
11 years ago
Reply to  francis

heavily in contention = 88 wins
not in contention at all = 83 wins

we’re stuck in the middle

if everything absolutely goes right for us, and the nats dont get their stuff together, we could take the division with a record less than what the wild card teams have.

our saving grace is that we are in a 2 team division race.

if we had money and a GM not afraid to spend, our LF is Nelson Cruz, our 2B is Robinson Cano, our SS is Johnny Peralta and we would’ve extended Duda already.

we probably would’ve traded Flores + Murphy by now, but we’d probably be running away with the division.

since Alderson is more impressed in trying to squeeze out as many win as possible per dollar, the mets will not be shopping in the steak aisle til we change front offices ( and probably owners too )

stevenam
11 years ago
Reply to  Pale Hose

Their/there/they’re. C’mon.

attgig
11 years ago
Reply to  George

or the red/black roulette table analogy.

a string of red, doesn’t mean that you’re due for a string of black (gambler’s fallacy).

after a string of red, you would expect pretty even reds and blacks coming up (regression to the mean).

Jason B
11 years ago
Reply to  attgig

I love that casinos put up boards showing the last several roulette spins to take advantage of this.

“Look at all those reds, you just KNOW black is coming!” – Uncle Remus from Dumpwater

or even

“Look at all those reds! I bet it will just keep right on being red!” – Esther from East Bumf!ck

(Not that roulette bettors would be any better using any other system besides finding a wheel with a single zero rather than a 0 and 00.)

Zen Madman
11 years ago
Reply to  Jason B

Funny how they don’t do this in Blackjack.

Jason B
11 years ago
Reply to  Jason B

In blackjack it’s “YOU TOOK MAH CARD!” – Cousin Geech in the third-base seat who thinks he can count cards despite being in about five beers and $1,125

Joe
11 years ago
Reply to  George

Formally, the Gambler’s fallacy is treating independent events as if they were dependent in a yet to be posterior series.

Josh
11 years ago
Reply to  George

Think of it this way:

What happened in the past is irrelevant for your expected future performance. If you flip a quarter 10 times you expect to get 5 heads and 5 tails. If instead you get 10 heads, that doesn’t mean you next flip has a great chance of coming up tails. It’s still 50/50. Regression to the mean states that on your second set of 10 coin flips you still expect to get 5 heads and 5 tails.

Translate that to the Mets: If you start the season expecting them to be a .500 team, unless the first 13 games somehow changes your expectation (which Dave says in the article it doesn’t), then you still expect them to regress to their mean performance, which is a .500 team. So they should be a .500 team from here on out.

The gambler’s fallacy misses the idea that future expectations are independent of what has already happened in the past.

Zen Madman
11 years ago
Reply to  Josh

If you flip a quarter 10 times and get 10 heads, you should probably bet on heads in your next flip.

Kevin
11 years ago
Reply to  Zen Madman

That’s a smart move, right there. You’ll probably win that bet roughly half the time.

Are you willing to bet that the Mets will finish the season with a .769 winning percentage, winning 125 games?

Jason B
11 years ago
Reply to  Zen Madman

No, he’s saying that if it’s come up heads that often in a row, you may as well pick heads on the 11th, as it’s no worse than a 50/50 proposition and the coin may actually be biased.

Zen Madman
11 years ago
Reply to  Zen Madman

Exactly, Jason B.

Paul G.
11 years ago
Reply to  Zen Madman

Yeah, there is non-trivial probability at this point that the coin is loaded.

stevenam
11 years ago
Reply to  Zen Madman

If you’re assuming the coin is potentially “loaded”, then it’s not really what we mean when we say “coin toss”. That implies 50/50. Different scenario.

ZenMadman
11 years ago
Reply to  Zen Madman

Well he said “flip a quarter,” so yeah, it could be unfair. In fact, I think most quarters are unfair.

steex
11 years ago
Reply to  Josh

We do have to be careful applying the gambler’s fallacy to baseball (and sports in general), though, because strictly looking at past performance and then factoring in regression does not take strength of schedule into account.

Baseball games are each independent events, but a team does not have the same odds of winning each game, so the expected results through the completed segment of the schedule need to be referenced. Given that a .500 projection is based on what we expected over the course of a full season, we need to determine the level of competition faced to date as well as expected over the rest of the season to determine the reasonable odds for success over those time periods.

To oversimplify, imagine an 8-game season where the Mets were projected to play .500 baseball with four games against a high school team and four games against the best possible roster of non-Met MLB players. If the schedule is set such that the Mets are 4-0 after playing all four games against a high school team, it is not therefore reasonable to predict they will go 6-2 because they are already 4-0 and will now play 2-2 ball per the projections.

Now, I’m not saying the fallacy is being applied incorrectly looking at the Mets in this piece, but this caveat does tend to be overlooked when applying the gambler’s fallacy to a series of events that are independent, but not all of equal probability.

tz
11 years ago

They also still have 30 games remaining against the Braves and Phillies, which the other wild-card contenders don’t have. And if the Marlins throw in the towel, that could be even more of a strength-of-schedule advantage.

francis
11 years ago
Reply to  tz

The Braves are as good as the Mets. Just go player by player and you’ll see it.

Once the Marlins move Ozuna to hit in front of Stanton, they will start winning. He is being wasted hitting sixth.

Wobatus
11 years ago
Reply to  francis

If I go player by player per fangraph’s depth chart’s and projected rest of way standings it says Mets 75-74 and Braves 68-82. maybe that was before Travis D’Arnaud broke his hand.

Per projections, Mets better at C, 2b, 3b, lf, cf, rf, sp and dh.

Braves better at 1b, ss and rp.

In some areas the differences are negligible. And the Mets c and 3b are injured. But I doubt AJ and Chris Johnson will OPS at their current rates either.

I’m not wed to the projections.

Joe
11 years ago
Reply to  Wobatus

For some reason or other (I have intuitions on this actually) the projection systems always always always underrated Braves starting pitching. To the point where “Braves”/”notBraves” should be a factor level variable

Wobatus
11 years ago
Reply to  Wobatus

Joe, your intuitions are good enough for me.

Seriously, I can see where with 2 guys down for the Mets (or rather 8, with Mejia, Wright, D’Arnaud, Wheeler, Blevins, Edgin, Black and Parnell all out, or a third of the expected opening day roster) and if you tweak the projections or just suspect they’re wrong…Nah. I still don’t see it.

But hey, ya never know. Other than you do know the Nationals are better than the Phils.

SandyK
11 years ago
Reply to  francis

Chris Johnson is totally as good as David Wright. Yup.

Analyst
11 years ago
Reply to  SandyK

Right now he’s hecka better. Until Wright comes back at least.

Joe
11 years ago
Reply to  francis

I’m a Braves fan. There’s no way on earth they keep this up, and they will DEFINITELY sell high on guys like Grilli this year if there is an opportunity. Or at least I hope so.

Jason B
11 years ago
Reply to  francis

Who knew that one simple change in the batting order would take them from pretenders to contenders! Get that man a managerial position, STAT!!

TKDC
11 years ago
Reply to  tz

They also have a ton of games against the Nats. And they play the AL East in interleague. And while I disagree that the Braves are as good as the Mets, they are as good as the other noncontenders (as Dave outlined in the post). I really don’t see the advantage over the other WC contenders.

Wobatus
11 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

18 games against the mighty AL East which is 15 games against roughly .500 teams about equal to the Mets give or take and 3 against Boston, which is the “killer” of the AL east just going by projections.

eljefe17Member since 2026
11 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

i think i’d rather play the AL east than the other 2 divisions this year

Will Graham
11 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

What’s good about the AL East this year, exactly? The West and Central both seem stronger.

Wobatus
11 years ago
Reply to  Will Graham

AL East still has best projected record overall. No truly bad teams like the West and Central each have, per projections.

AL East projected record: 414-396.
Central 403-407
West 404-406

francis
11 years ago
Reply to  tz

Chris Johnson is as good as Eric Campbell. Until Wright is actually playing, I’m not counting him. Ditto for D’Arnaud.

francis
11 years ago

I think you have overestimated their bullpen, which at this point is one guy deep. That one guy will not likely end up with 75 saves, and Colon won’t end up going 28-0.

If you consider being less than 5 games out of first by the end of April “contending”, then maybe you are right. The Mets usually look ok until they meet the Yankees, and drop 2/3 rds of their games immediately thereafter.

I put the over/under on them crossing .500 at Memorial Day.

jon
11 years ago
Reply to  francis

He already figured all that stuff in. As was stated in the article, just because Colon is 3-0 doesn’t mean the probability gods will make him go 0-for-his-next-3. Erase what just happened from your mind. Predict what you expect the Mets to do for 139 games (about .500). Then add 10-3 to that. That’s how it works. (And if we’re doing that, give us back Wright and d’Arnaud please lol)

Zen Madman
11 years ago
Reply to  francis

I’ll take the over. What are we betting?

attgig
11 years ago
Reply to  francis

gambler’s fallacy or regression to the mean?

BurleighGrimes
11 years ago
Reply to  francis

Not for nothing but the Yankees haven’t really been beating the Mets the last couple of years. Not sure what your point is with that.

francis
11 years ago
Reply to  francis

PS – I was 5 weeks late, but they hit .500

I suppose I said “cross” .500, so perhaps they will get a bounce, but I’m not counting on it.

PPS – scroll up to where I said the Braves were as good as the Mets. Turns out that was also true, despite all of the down votes.

Klimt
11 years ago

warning: but-what-about-my-team tangent

It sounds moronic to fire redmond when Yelich has been a sink to the tune of 200/265/222 over 13 games while looking downright obtunded at times. Then there’s the Salty situation… Its really difficult to pull a veteran who has looked so terrible (50% K) over so few games, especially when only a few years ago Red was a poorly hitting catcher himself, fighting annually for 200 at bats.

I normally don’t care about management beyond “don’t screw it up and freak out the players that are into the ‘manager’ thing” but I give them credit for benching crappy veterans when the time comes.

Edna K
11 years ago
Reply to  Klimt

“Obtunded” is a perfectly cromulent word.

(No really! Today I learned that “obtund” is a word. The more you know.)

John
11 years ago

Your commentary on Mayberry is a little off. The vast majority of his at bats will come against lefties, and he is excellent against them.

vivalajeter
11 years ago
Reply to  John

Good point. I figured Nieuwenhuis was the 4th OF in the event of an injury to any of their three OF. Mayberry will only start if there’s a lefty on the hill. If overexposed, there’s not much upside there. But if properly used, he should be more than adequate. He seems to be the type of player that Oakland picks up, and he winds up having very good rate stats because they use him the right way.

Zen Madman
11 years ago
Reply to  vivalajeter

A Mayberry/Nieuwenhuis platoon should be a pretty solid replacement for Cuddyer or Granderson. It would certainly be an upgrade defensively, and should be pretty good offensively, so long as they don’t get too many at bats without the platoon advantage.

Roger
11 years ago
Reply to  John

Yeah, this has been a bit of a persistent problem with FG writing on the Mets this year. The team is set up to take pretty good advantage of platoon splits by rotating a pool of players into the corner OF and 1B spots.

Pale HoseMember since 2025
11 years ago
DD
11 years ago

“The NL in 2015 is broken into four distinct tiers: there are the obvious division favorites, the Wild Card contenders, the Wild Card pretenders, and the Phillies. A visual representation might help.”

Not for Phillies fans.

Cornflake5000
11 years ago
Reply to  DD

The Phillies had a decently long string of success and have won a WS in the recent past… nobody feels bad for Phillies fans right now.

Zen Madman
11 years ago
Reply to  DD

But the Phillies are the only team that gets their own tier! That’s gotta be worth something.

Norm
11 years ago

While I was reading the article, I thought ‘Man, Dave is REALLY laying it on thick. I mean, I get it. Regression to the mean =/= gambler’s fallacy. This is like, saber 101 stuff.’

Then the comments are full of people who missed the point entirely, and I remember why Fangraphs needs to write articles this way.

Jason B
11 years ago
Reply to  Norm

Seems like most of the commenters understand it just fine?

Wobatus
11 years ago

It kinda reminds me of 1984, which would have been a wildcard team if the wildcard existed back then. Their pythag was 78-84 (I wonder what their baseruns record was), but led by young starting they went 90-72, heralding the contenders of the next few years, including the 1986 title team.

Zen Madman
11 years ago
Reply to  Wobatus

It’s funny that they exceeded their pythag by so much, and then actually improved in 1985 and again in 1986. Assuming that their baseruns didn’t paint a different story, SABR articles written about them would be about how unsustainable their run as a 90-win team was. Except that they had upside, so maybe not.

Wobatus
11 years ago
Reply to  Zen Madman

I suspect the ’84 Mets were a little better than their pythag.

But to that team they added Carter, Dykstra, Hojo, Kevin Mitchell, Teufel, Knight played more and better. They weren’t all regulars but it was a deep team and Backman was better in a platoon, etc.

Pitching they added McDowell, Ojeda, Aguilera, Darlind and El Sid were better.

With Keith, Straw and Gooden, the ’84 team certainly had upside.

O'KieboomerMember since 2021
11 years ago

Please keep religion out of your writeups, thanks.

Joe
11 years ago
Reply to  O'Kieboomer

This is math. Expecting the Mariners to contend year after year is religion.

Dr. Hackenbush
11 years ago
Reply to  O'Kieboomer

I hope you’re being as hyperbolic as Dave was.

Umberto
11 years ago
Reply to  O'Kieboomer

I’m less offended by the religious aspect than I am by the fact that the reference doesn’t make much sense.

TKDC
11 years ago
Reply to  Umberto

Yeah, it really doesn’t. The arc would not make a splash. However, being offended by any of this is the height of ridiculousness.

Patrick
11 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Arks make splashes.

Arcs make circles.

The Humber Games
11 years ago
Reply to  O'Kieboomer

Please tell me this is a troll post…

Roger
11 years ago
Reply to  O'Kieboomer

This is the silliest thing to take offense about since Krishna reminded Arjuna that “A man of controlled senses cannot be offensive to anyone.”

Paul G.
11 years ago
Reply to  O'Kieboomer

This article is not about the Padres. Or the Angels for that matter.

CrazyPants
11 years ago

Really solid analysis of the NL. Mets “look” very solid now but 10-3 shouldn’t change the forecast by much. Biggest early positive (after Harvey’s solid return) has been Familia being lights out in the 9th inning. No one was sure how he’d take to it. He still has to pass the test facing LHed hitting. He was awful last season facing LHed bats.

Wright should be back quickly but D’Arnaud going down just as he was getting hot is a blow. Bringing up a top C prospect but there will be a drop off for sure.

Thing is that they were fortunate to catch the Nats early since they were really banged up. They dropped 2 out of 3 to the new-look Braves and then played a really bad Phillies team which energized them. The 4 game sweep of the Marlins this weekend was big, since the Fish are supposed to be good.

Now they get Atlanta at home, followed by the Yankees at YS, and then down to Miami where the Marlins will be geared up for some revenge. After that, the Nats come up for 4 games followed by a short 2 game series with the O’s. So, it will be interesting to see how they handle these next 15 games, especially being banged up a little.

Trotter76
11 years ago
Reply to  CrazyPants

Funny thing about the Braves series is that the rotation lines up exactly the same as the first time: Niese, Gee, Colon. We’ll see if we can pull 2 out of 3 this time, but Niese is way overperforming his peripherals as far as ERA and Gee has just been bad through 2 starts. Of course, that means deGrom and Harvey start gms 1 and 2 against the Yanks, so that’s good.

Psualum
11 years ago
Reply to  CrazyPants

As a person who watched the games, it seems Terry had picked up on Familias weakness against lefties because on a couple of occasationd a lefty actually started the 9th against a lefty befor they brought in familia to finish the job I believe

Will Graham
11 years ago

Wilmer Flores related…hasn’t he been average yet again at short? It seems like the stats for years have said he is fine at short, yet everyone is pushing the narrative that he’s like BJ Upton bad at short.

Trotter76
11 years ago
Reply to  Will Graham

Flores had one bad game in the field where he committed 2 throwing errors (which, incidentally, was never the knock on his defense; it was his range that made people think he couldn’t play short). Other than that he’s made 1 fielding error. While he has not turned into A. Simmons by any stretch, he’s held his own other than that one game. I’d say the jury’s still out.

As for the BJ Upton comparison, I’m not getting that, because Upton’s always been a good defensive player, but his hitting has been atrocious in his Braves tenure.

vivalajeter
11 years ago
Reply to  Trotter76

Upton’s been a good CF, but wasn’t he a SS in the minors but he had to move to the OF because of how bad he was?

Will Graham
11 years ago
Reply to  vivalajeter

Yes, that was my point of the Beej comparison.

Trotter76
11 years ago
Reply to  vivalajeter

Gotcha, I’d forgotten he came up as an IF. He’s more than held his own in CF though.

MH
11 years ago
Reply to  Trotter76

He hasn’t been a disaster other than that one game, and not much he’s done has been super costly, but he takes a while to get to balls that other shortstops make plays on easily, and his arm doesn’t quite make up for it. There have been a lot more close plays at first and infield hits than there should be, and the double play combo with Murphy has been pretty awful.

Will Hatheway
11 years ago

I agree with the gambler’s fallacy, which is why it drives me nuts that the projections posted on this site yield to it with their ROS projections implying that a better than predicted start means a bad run for a given player coming up.

Zen Madman
11 years ago
Reply to  Will Hatheway

Wait, what? The projections don’t do that, do they?

jdbolickMember since 2024
11 years ago
Reply to  Zen Madman

No.

Zen Madman
11 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

I think the projections do the opposite, where a short-term sample of performance above expectation increases the expected future performance, albeit only by a little.

11 games contain data which should affect our projections, the same way Spring Training contains (a little) data that should affect our projections.

Roger
11 years ago
Reply to  Will Hatheway

“I agree with the gambler’s fallacy”

With a hot take like this you should stay near the phone; that ESPN-commentator interview is coming through soon.

The Humber Games
11 years ago

If I were the Rockies I would be calling the Mets every day trying to sell Cargo to a team flush with hope and in need of an OFer.

But sadly the Rockies are second only to the Phillies in their inability to capitalize on trade opportunities.

CrazyPants
11 years ago

Why should the Rox trade low on Cargo?

The Humber Games
11 years ago
Reply to  CrazyPants

Rather than wait for his usual injury and trade even lower or not at all? At this point, given CO’s outfield depth, I might even be looking for mostly salary relief.

Zen Madman
11 years ago

How are the Mets in need of an outfielder? They probably will be after someone gets hurt, but even then, they have enough internal options that it doesn’t make sense to give up much for CarGo. I think Dave’s sort of off here, in terms of OF depth.

Also, two of their best prospects are corner OF who should debut before the end of next year.

The Humber Games
11 years ago
Reply to  Zen Madman

That’s why Cargo makes sense – you wouldn’t have to pony up Tulo-worthy prospects to get him.

CrazyPants
11 years ago

Where would he play? The Mets are kinda committed to an OF of Cuddyer, Lagares, and Grandy thru next season.

vivalajeter
11 years ago

Where would they put him? I can only see a deal if Colorado took Granderson in return, but that wouldn’t make sense for the Rockies. Considering Cargo has been below replacement level since the 2013 All-Star break, he has a hefty contract, and he’s always an injury risk, I don’t see a trade happening.

Phillies113
11 years ago

Hey, I’m fine with being champions of the Phillies Tier this year. Not much else going on.

CyYout
11 years ago

This is the most lukewarm endorsement/prediction I’ve ever read. It is so backwards and backhanded, it really reads like it was written begrudgingly. The Mets don’t have a McCutchen, but they don’t have any holes, either. And they have depth (which will they will need now) and every team does eventually. The Marlins, Cubs, Pirates, and Padres don’t have a Plawecki or Syndergaard or a closer in Parnell coming back.

Zen Madman
11 years ago
Reply to  CyYout

It seems pretty fair, or at least consistent to me. It’s going to take more than 10 wins to earn an “I was wrong about the Mets” post.

Pirates Hurdles
11 years ago
Reply to  CyYout

Well the Bucs do have a Glasnow, Taillon, Kingham, Bell, and Hanson around and they got a 100mph RH for essentially free this spring.

senor_mike
11 years ago
Reply to  CyYout

2015 Mets = 2014 Royals?

I’LL TAKE IT

Seriously though, as a Mets fan, I don’t have any problem with Dave’s write-up. Truth is, as happy as I am with the record and the current aura surrounding the team, the overall level of play feels very similar to their play in the 2nd half of last season.

I do tend to think that the drivers for these projections tend to be pessimistic (HINT: Look at the collective Steamer projections for the BABIP rates of Met starting position players), but that is a topic for a different day.

Get over it
11 years ago
Reply to  CyYout

I agree with the others that this is fair assessment. Let’s remember who the Mets have faced thus far:

Nats- Have been a mess defensively and their lineup was greatly weakened with guys like Uggla, Tyler Moore and Taylor in for Rendon, Werth and Span. Desmond didn’t hit at all that series and Strasburg got roughed up. Mets won two of three.

Braves- Likely a bad team playing way above their heads. Mets lose two of three.

Phillies- Worst team in baseball. Mets avoided Hamels, their one good pitcher. Mets sweep three.

Marlins- Another team that’s a mess right now. Their pitching stinks and Dee Gordon, through 13 games, is the best hitter on the team… Mets sweep four.

They’ve fattened up on bad teams (at least the version of Nats they played was) and that’s what good teams do. I’m cautiously optimistic that this team is finally ready to truly contend. Hopefully they can keep it going despite the injuries.

vivalajeter
11 years ago
Reply to  Get over it

“Desmond didn’t hit at all that series and Strasburg got roughed up.”

Maybe I’m not interpreting that correctly, but you seem to be implying that the Mets caught a break because Desmond didn’t hit and Strasburg got roughed up. Isn’t it possible that Desmond didn’t hit at all that series because the Mets have great pitchers, and Strasburg got roughed up because the Mets’ hitters had his number?

Another way to word that sentence in a positive way is “Desmond was completely shut down by Mets pitchers that series, and their hitters teed off on Strasburg”.

K
11 years ago
Reply to  CyYout

You are reading bias into it because you are biased.

Psualum
11 years ago
Reply to  CyYout

None of the Cubs Pirates and Marlins have a season long 1-2 punch of Harvey and Degrom at the top of their rotation either. The Mets preseason. Projections had both those guys throwing 150-160 innings, if they both get into 180-200 they will outperform the projections on that alone

Zen Madman
11 years ago
Reply to  Psualum

There’s a pretty good chance that one of them gets hurt or doesn’t live up to his potential.

But if Harvey and deGrom both continue on like this, they’ll outpace their projections by a combined 5+ wins. If everything else breaks relatively even, that’s enough to make them a 90-win team.

Of course, if Harvey or deGrom goes down, there’s a good chance this becomes another lost season. Losing Wheeler was bad, but not nearly as bad as losing another, even better starter.

cass
11 years ago

“The fourth team — or first Wild Card, if you want to make it sound a little better — is the Padres, whose winter moves made the largest splash the world has seen since Noah decided to build an ark.”

Trying to write like Jeff Sullivan? 🙂

pitnick
11 years ago

Am I reading this chart wrong? Sorted by POFF:

Team POFF
Dodgers 94.6 %
Nationals 89.7 %
Cardinals 79.7 %
Padres 52.7 %
Pirates 51.5 %
Cubs 44.0 %
Mets 43.3 %

Pirates Hurdles
11 years ago
Reply to  pitnick

Yeah, guessing Dave wrote this prior to yesterday’s Pirate win.

pitnick
11 years ago

Ah. He said “as of this morning,” but you’re probably right.

Wot
11 years ago

So after spending the entire off-season constantly shooting down the mere thought of the Mets even sniffing the post-season, you’re ready to renege on that two weeks into the season?

Ok, Dave.

Wobatus
11 years ago
Reply to  Wot

I always thought Dave thought of the Mets as a .500 team, that the quicker they switched out Gee for one of the younger arms the batter for their chances, and that any team at that level with some breaks could get to be an 85 win team and in contention. I never thought he was excessively negative on them. I liked them a bit better than that, but I’m a fan, and hey, it’s Spring.

K
11 years ago
Reply to  Wot

It’s obvious that you commented after reading the title but not the article.

Ty Segall
11 years ago

I think people tend to underestimate the positional depth the Mets have in the minors. Brandon Nimmo is a potentially late call up who has a low floor and could probably play solid to plus defense at both corners and center. Puello could be a nice part of a platoon. Matt Reynolds might be able play like a second division starter at booth short and second. Dilson Herrera could be an above average regular and Plawicki an average catcher in the event Darnaud is out a long time. The Mets kind of remind me of the A’s with their depth, only more of that depth is in the minor leagues at the moment. Factor in the starting pitching depth and I don’t think a mid season trade for a difference maker or the ability to get some relief help are out of the question either. I think the mets have a higher floor than the Cubs and less holes and way more depth than the Padres. I think the Pirates are better but the Mets are the other wild card team.

Tyke
11 years ago

“All of the sudden”

Jesus christ

Jason B
11 years ago
Reply to  Tyke

That’s how the Bible says it will happen, yes.

John Madden
11 years ago
Reply to  Jason B

I think it reads more like, “You’re over here, you’re minding your own business, maybe having a burger and thinking about going down to the fishin’ hole and BOOM! Jesus Christ.”

tyke
11 years ago
Reply to  John Madden

while your replies are somewhat humorous, the phrase is “all of a sudden” and a professional writer should know the proper version of the idiom.

steex
11 years ago
Reply to  John Madden

Someone critiquing professional writing should also probably use proper capitalization rather than building a stone thrower for their glass house.

Oh, sorry, that should read “for his/her glass house.” I didn’t mean to upset you there.

bvillebaron
11 years ago

World Series or bust, baby. METS! METS! METS!

Just_Da_Damaja
11 years ago

The greatest thing to happen to the mets 2015 hopes happened last May…

Firing Dave Hudgens and ending Sandy Alderson’s ridiculously stubborn hold on having batters approach every at bat in the way that makes him most happy.

the whole focus on “hunting strikes” led to batters taking pitches on the outside half of the plate and falling behind on counts.

which works if ur facing Oliver Perez on a bad day in 2009, but for the most part, most pitchers can get that pitch over, esp if they know ur never going to swing or try to go the other way.

Just_Da_Damaja
11 years ago

I feel horrible that Travis went down with that freak injury, but Im confident that Plawecki can hold down the fort til he comes back.

Most of the top position players in our system are college bats and were much safer bets.

Reynolds
Plawecki
Conforto

Smith / Gavin / Nimmo were all very risky picks.

Dilson and Beccerra came from other scouting systems, but im high on them too.

Alice Cooper
11 years ago

That moment when you write about a team’s playoff odds, and link to said playoff odds, and those playoff odds drop 7.5% in a day and fall behind 2 other teams you explicitly mention them being ahead of …..

Oops

Roger
11 years ago
Reply to  Alice Cooper

It’s April 20th. If you were expecting the playoff odds to be more stable than that, it’s not Dave Cameron’s fault.

Bruce Bochy
11 years ago

Thank God I work for a real GM who allows me to do my job.

Must suck to be a puppet for King Snob

William
11 years ago

Isn’t it strange that the Mets are batting Granderson in the leadoff slot and Cuddyer in the cleanup slot? Granderson seems like an obvious fit for the #4 slot, and Cuddyer projects for higher OBP than Granderson.

Noah Baron
11 years ago

Yes, it’s true, a team going 10-3 does not prove that a projection system pegging them as a .500 team is incorrect. With that being said, upon further examination it becomes quite obvious why the Mets were able to outpace the projection systems.

The reason the projection systems didn’t (and still don’t) consider the Mets to be a legitimate contender is because the Mets are using statistics beyond the comprehension of Cameron and the projection systems like hitter exit velocity, pitcher Z-Contact%. Not to mention, the projection systems use inaccurate playing time estimates (John Mayberry Jr. has a 132 career wRC+ against lefties, who he plays against primarily, yet was only projected for only a 94 wRC+ by Steamer).

Lucas Duda, for instance, was projected for a laughably low WAR total, despite exit velocity readings confirming that his breakout last year was legitimate.

While projection systems expected major regression from deGrom, clever statisticians noticed his excellent Z-Contact%, a pitch f(x) stat that allows some pitchers (like Cueto, Weaver, Dickey, and others) to consistently beat their peripherals. Rafael Montero, Matt Harvey, Zack Wheeler, Jerry Blevins, Alex Torres, Vic Black, Buddy Carlyle, and Carlos Torres all finished with well above average Z-Contact%’s in the last two years, allowing them to outperform their peripherals, yet the projection systems don’t take this into account.

There are countless other examples. It’s really not the fault of FanGraphs or you (Dave Cameron) specifically, and I’m glad that you guys are willing to improve your models. But until your projection systems utilize this new data, systematic errors will always exist.

Noah Baron
11 years ago

Yes, it’s true, a team going 10-3 does not prove that a projection system pegging them as a .500 team is incorrect. With that being said, upon further examination it becomes quite obvious why the Mets were able to outpace the projection systems.

The reason the projection systems didn’t consider the Mets to be a legitimate contender is because the Mets are using statistics beyond the comprehension of Cameron and the projection systems like hitter exit velocity, pitcher Z-Contact%. Not to mention, the projection systems use inaccurate playing time estimates (John Mayberry Jr. has a 132 career wRC+ against lefties, who he plays against primarily, yet was only projected for only a 94 wRC+ by Steamer).

Lucas Duda, for instance, was projected for a laughably low WAR total, despite exit velocity readings confirming that his breakout last year was legitimate.

While projection systems expected major regression from deGrom, clever statisticians noticed his excellent Z-Contact%, a pitch f(x) stat that allows some pitchers (like Cueto, Weaver, Dickey, and others) to consistently beat their peripherals. Rafael Montero, Matt Harvey, Zack Wheeler, Jerry Blevins, Alex Torres, Vic Black, Buddy Carlyle, and Carlos Torres all finished with well above average Z-Contact%’s in the last two years, allowing them to outperform their peripherals, yet the projection systems don’t take this into account.

There are countless other examples. It’s really not the fault of FanGraphs or you (Dave Cameron) specifically, and I’m glad that you guys are willing to improve your models. But until your projection systems utilize this new data, systematic errors will always exist.

Paul
11 years ago
Reply to  Noah Baron

Yes, systematic errors will exist for all teams. Have you applied this analysis to see which Mets’ players should be expected to underperform their projections? You haven’t mentioned this. Have you applied this analysis and playing time projections to all teams to see how the Mets rate in the only way that matters to win-loss records–comparatively?

If you don’t do the above, why should we take your comment seriously?

Noah Baron
11 years ago
Reply to  Paul

Of course it applies to all teams, just like the park factors issue I mentioned before. It just so happens that the Mets are excellent in Z-Contact%, a very important stat that allows teams to outperform their FIP; they’re fifth in the big leagues.

CrazyPants
11 years ago
Reply to  Noah Baron

so sure about it, you had to post it twice!

John
11 years ago

Great article, but I don’t really understand how you can say that the Padres can hit in a way that the Mets can’t. The Mets have an offensive edge at catcher, maybe even with Plawecki filling in for d’Arnaud. They have big edges at 1st base with Duda over Alonso and 3rd base with Wright over Middlebrooks/Solarte. Flores is probably a better hitter than Alexi Amarista, and Murphy is a much better bet than Jedd Gyorko.

Although the Padres definitely have the advantage in the outfield, the Mets trio of Cuddyer, Lagares, and Granderson isn’t terrible with the stick, and Lagares probably has a little bit of upside compared to his projections (although so does Will Myers). You can’t say the same thing about a Padres infield that boasts 3 players with negative projected batting values.

andy
11 years ago

The mets have played only trash teams, of course they have an abnormally large amount of wins. Dave needs to learn to condition on that when making these SSS analyses.

Rich Rieders
11 years ago

What you also need to take into account is how laughably bad the NL East is. The Braves and Phillies are bottom dwellers and the Marlins are in shambles (I don’t understand why people were so high on them to begin with as their infield and pitching staff leaves a lot to be desired).

Plus the Nationals aren’t as good as last year even with Scherzer. Scherzer replaced Roark so you’re looking at a nominal upgrade (based solely on Roark’s 2014 stats). Then you lose LaRoche and replace him with Yunel Escobar and that’s a significant offensive downgrade. Then in the bullpen you lose Soriano and Clippard. Two big pieces.

So while the Mets might not be as talented as SD, PIT or CHC (not ready to contend yet), their division is so weak that it should provide them the extra few wins to contend for a WC spot or maybe even the division.

Forrest Gumption
11 years ago

Can we get a list of teams who had great Aprils and see where they ended up? No one cares about April games: players are rusty, theyre trying to find their groove and bad players can look spectacular well into May, such MLB All-Star selection Bryan LaHair.

Jason B
11 years ago

You’re right of course, no team that has ever been good in April has ever finished the season well or gone to the postseason, much less win any postseason games or series of consequence. That’s why the games in April only count for 1/2 as much in the final standings.