So What Do We Think About Bullpenning Now?

For most of this postseason, the primary story tying all these disparate series together has been the significant change in the way pitchers are deployed. After Andrew Miller’s dominance last October, aggressive bullpen usage has become the norm. The tone was set in the very first Wild Card game, when Luis Severino got one out but the Yankees advanced anyway, thanks to 8.2 dominant innings from their relief corps.

But now, here we are at the end of the month, and the two bullpens left standing combined to give up 15 runs last night. To be fair, the two starters combined to give up 10 runs, so they didn’t exactly impress either, but neither bullpen had any ability to hold any kind of lead last night. And the players entrusted with those opportunities just looked exhausted.

Coming into the series, the Dodgers were supposed to have a big bullpen advantage. Their relievers had been unhittable in the first two rounds of the postseason. The right-handed trio of Kenta Maeda, Brandon Morrow, and Kenley Jansen were just slamming doors on Arizona and Chicago, and with easy series wins, no one was pushed all that hard on the way to the World Series.

In this matchup against Houston, though, Dave Roberts has leaned almost exclusively on those three pitchers. Last night, the usage seemed to catch up to them.

With Clayton Kershaw struggling and the right-handed top of the Astros order due up, Maeda was the first reliever on whom Roberts called in Game 5. He’d been nails all month, his fastball sitting 94 and regularly touching 96 after having averaged something more like 92 mph in a starting role. He’d worked his slider and cutter off that pitch, giving hitters three tough and distinct looks. Here’s how Maeda attacked Jose Altuve upon entering.

Maeda vs Altuve
Pitch Velocity Result
Slider 85 Whiff
Slider 85 Ball
Cutter 87 Ball
Cutter 87 Foul
Cutter 86 Ball
Cutter 87 Foul
Fastball 94 Home Run

Maeda came in and tried to get Altuve out with his soft stuff, probably knowing he wouldn’t have his usual oomph after throwing 42 pitches on Friday night. After Altuve torched that last cutter — MLB’s pitch-classification algorithm calls it a two-seamer, but at that velocity, it was probably just a terrible cutter — he finally decided to try and throw one past Altuve. Instead, he only got it up to 94. Altuve, meanwhile, hit it 105 off the bat for a three-run homer.

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That 94 mph fastball would be the hardest one thrown by Maeda all night. He threw a pair at 92 mph to Carlos Correa and Yuliesky Gurriel before going back to the slider to end the fifth inning, then threw 92 and a 93 to Josh Reddick in the sixth before attacking Evan Gattis exclusively with offspeed stuff between 80 and 87. Maeda threw 25 pitches last night; only five of them cracked 90 mph.

After Tony Watson got out of Maeda’s jam and the Dodgers retook the lead in the top of the seventh, Roberts summoned Brandon Morrow — whom he had declared unavailable before the game started, due to the fact that Morrow had pitched in every game in this series — to go after the top of the Astros lineup. Like Maeda, Morrow has been nails for LA this entire postseason, pounding high-90s fastballs and high-80s breaking balls past nearly every hitter he’s faced.

Here’s a complete log of the pitches Morrow threw last night.

Brandon Morrow’s Outing
Pitch Velocity Result
Fastball 95 Home Run
Slider 87 Single
Slider 87 Called Strike
Fastball 97 Double
Slider 90 Ball
Fastball 97 Home Run

A guy who has averaged 98 with his fastball this month topped out at 97 and got torched for four runs on six pitches. Credit to the Astros hitters, of course, but Morrow wasn’t throwing the same stuff that has allowed him to overpower hitters this postseason.

Finally, after the Dodgers insanely tied the game in the top of the ninth, Roberts once again summoned Kenley Jansen. Jansen, who threw one inning last night but had two days off before that, was pretty much his normal self for the first 25 or so pitches of last night’s outing. But his 27th pitch hit Brian McCann in the wrist, then he issued a five-pitch walk to George Springer, and then his 33rd pitch of the night was lined for a game-winning single by Alex Bregman.

Jansen walked seven guys during the regular season; in the postseason, his strikeout-to-walk ratio stood at 15:1 entering Sunday’s game. But last night, approaching a pitch count of 50 over the previous 24 hours, he nailed McCann and walked Springer consecutively, then threw Bregman a 92 mph cutter that ended the game. His stuff wasn’t as obviously impacted by recent workload as Morrow and Maeda, but we’re used to Jansen forcing hitters to get themselves on base. Last night, though, the Astros’ winning run reached, and then was put in scoring position, by hitters who didn’t have to swing the bat.

For the second time in this series, the Dodgers lost with Jansen on the mound. Houston is hitting .292/.346/.635 against the Dodgers bullpen in the World Series. And they probably still have more of their manager’s trust than Houston’s relief corps.

Fill-in closer Chris Devenski was terrible again while replacing Ken Giles, who has been terrible all postseason. A.J. Hinch tried to avoid his normal relievers so much that he asked Brad Peacock — who also wasn’t supposed to pitch on Sunday — to throw 39 pitches.

So, this all brings up the obvious question: if this is what you get for riding your bullpen in October, then are teams being penny wise and pound foolish by aggressively pulling their starters and treating every round like the World Series? Given what these relievers have done so far this series, is the hot new trend next year going to be just giving your starters the ball and trusting them to get six innings regardless of pitch count or times through the order? Has John Smoltz and his band of grumpy men been proven correct. Will bullpenning be remembered as a failed experiment pushed by nerds who don’t understand baseball?

I think the answer is still no. There’s simply too much data to illustrate the diminishing returns provided by a tiring starter against good hitters a third time through the order. Lest we forget, Kershaw walked both of the hitters he faced the third time through last night, Alex Wood gave up a home run to the one guy he faced a third time the day before, and Yu Darvish got pulled in the second inning on Friday because he couldn’t get anybody out. In Houston, these weren’t controversial early pulls like we saw with Rich Hill in Game 2.

The story here isn’t just that relievers aren’t getting the job done; it’s that most pitchers aren’t really getting outs this series. The Astros stuck with Justin Verlander in Game 2, and he gave up a couple of home runs that put his team in a hole. Kershaw gave up a four-run lead on Sunday, while Dallas Keuchel threw 86 pitches and got just 11 outs. Charlie Morton’s brilliant outing on Saturday aside, this hasn’t exactly been a series in which starting pitchers have made a compelling case to be pushed deep into the game.

This series hasn’t been solely a story of bullpen failures; it’s been a series of across-the-board pitching failures, due in large part to the fact that these are the two best offenses in baseball. Between the heat in LA and the dimensions in Houston, the first five games have been played in hitter-friendly environments.

But I do think that 2017 probably represents something like Bullpenning 1.0, and there will need to be adjustments made in future years by teams hoping to get to the end of the World Series without exhausted relievers blowing leads. And, perhaps to Smoltz’s chagrin, I think the most necessary change is to use more, not fewer, relievers.

In general, I think quite highly of Dave Roberts, and believe he’s an upper-tier manager in MLB, if not the very best guy out there. But I think it’s fair to question how he ended up with an exhausted, overworked bullpen by Game 5 of the World Series after the team enjoyed easy DS and LCS victories that gave them plenty of rest between each series. And the adjustment that probably needs to be made is the acceptance that, even in the World Series, there are still innings that should belong to a club’s depth arms.

The Dodgers are carrying eight relievers on their roster this series. Unless you watched the end of Game 2, though, you wouldn’t know it. In the team’s first five games, Josh Fields and Brandon McCarthy have combined to throw 27 pitches to eight batters. Ross Stripling has also faced eight batters and thrown 27 pitches. The lefty Tonys — Watson and Cingrani — have been used a little more regularly, but in short stints; they’ve been called in to pitch six times, but have only combined to face a total of 20 batters.

Those five pitchers have faced 36 batters in this series, despite one starter having failed to make it out of the second inning and two other games going into extra innings. Meanwhile, Jansen, Morrow, and Maeda have combined to face 65 batters and throw 239 pitches. This isn’t so much an eight-man bullpen as it is a three-man bullpen with some other guys who might get asked to get an out or two here or there.

On this point, I would agree with Smoltz; that’s not a sustainable model for keeping a pitching staff going. Unless your starters are just absolutely nails every time out, it’s very difficult to win the World Series with a seven-man pitching staff, which is effectively what Roberts has used. At some point, it’s necessary to trust the other guys, too.

The primary source of the Dodgers’ current bullpen issues stem from how Roberts utilized his relievers after Darvish got torched early. Clearly, there’s some logic to not just punting a World Series game down by a few runs early, but pushing Maeda to throw 42 pitches, and then using Morrow to pitch in the sixth and seventh innings when trailing by a pair of runs, seems questionable.

No postseason manager has been willing to his use B-team relievers to protect any size lead, so nearly every win involves the same few pithcers on the mound for the last few innings. In the 10 postseason games Jansen had pitched prior to last night, he’d entered with a five-run lead three times and a 10-run lead once. He also was asked to get multi-inning saves with a three-run lead on two other occasions. This isn’t just a Dave Roberts thing either; pretty much every manager in this postseason has used his best relievers to protect high-win-probability leads late in games rather than use those opportunities to get some work for the guys lower on the depth chart.

The result of using the best arms to protect any size lead, while also being unwilling to ride a struggling starter to a big early deficit, means that there just aren’t innings left to be categorized as low-leverage affairs. Even when Darvish got yanked in the second inning and the team trailed the whole way, the high-leverage setup guys threw 55 pitches while the supposed long guys — Stripling and McCarthy — threw 15.

The data supporting earlier hooks for starters isn’t supposed to encourage managers to pull them for just the same two or three guys regardless of score or situation. The theory of heavy reliever usage in October is based on data showing that tiring starters aren’t any more effective than even most team’s sixth- or seventh-inning guy, and that it’s unnecessary to ride a starter the third time through the order when a multitude of fresh arms could perform just as well. The problem Roberts is running into is that he’s not using his multitude of arms.

Now, obviously, no Dodgers fan really wants to see Josh Fields pitch in the World Series again after he threw BP in the 11th inning of Game 2, but even if he’s persona non grata after that outing, there’s been more room for work from Stripling, McCarthy, Watson, and Cingrani. And if the Dodgers had shifted some of the Game 3 pitches from Maeda and Morrow to that combination on Friday night, it’s reasonable to think that Game 5 might have gone differently.

Quick hooks for starting pitchers in the postseason probably aren’t going away, despite how much protestation comes from one-half of the Fox announcer team. But the only way quicker hooks for starting pitchers can work is if a manager deploys five, six, or seven arms regularly, and doesn’t just lean on a chosen few to handle all the innings previously thrown by those starters.

When a club is trailing early or has a big lead late in the game, a manager should use his depth arms. Save the best relievers for situations where they matter most. That’s how bullpenning is supposed to work: trusting that even the fifth or sixth guys on the depth chart can be as effective as a starter turning the lineup over the third time. This only-my-best-guys-at-all-times approach isn’t viable, nor does the data suggest it’s necessary.





Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.

116 Comments
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aff10
8 years ago

While Roberts should probably use Watson and Cingrani more often, I think this is just a combination of tough luck and the Dodgers’ one roster flaw. Not only is Houston one of the best offenses in recent memory, but their best players are almost exclusively right-handed, and the Dodgers’ only reliable RHP before Jansen is probably Morrow. It’s tough to justify leaving decent LHP in against the murderers row at the top of Houston’s order, but obviously you don’t want Fields or Stripling out there either. The Friedman FO has been fantastic overall, but I do think they deserve a bit of criticism for not pursuing another RH reliever when it became clear that Pedro Baez was just running peripheral overperformance and couldn’t be trusted in the postseason

lesjcarter
8 years ago
Reply to  aff10

That makes sense, but I think one of Dave’s points is that you can justify using a LHP against the murderer’s row sometimes, because using them means fresher RHP in other more high leverage situations.

Matt
8 years ago
Reply to  lesjcarter

You don’t even need to use the LHP against the murderer’s row. Neither Cingrani nor Watson are pure loogy’s like an Avilan would be, so you can very easily keep them in to face even the bottom 5 guys in the Astros lineup. Gurriel hasn’t murdered lefties in his MLB career (actually showing reverse splits, but those can’t be trusted), so you could easily plan a system where you use a righty for the top 4-5 guys, then go to Watson for the bottom 4-5.

ie. SP faces the first 18 batters of the game. Then Maeda comes in for 1-4 or 1-5. Then Watson on for 5-9 or 6-9. Then Morrow on for 1-4 or 1-5 again. Then Cingrani on for 5-9 or 6-9 again, leading way to an inning for Jansen whenever you get to that spot in the lineup.

Dave TMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Matt

What you are saying sort of looked like the plan for Game 2. Maeda came in with the top of the order due up and then faced 5 RH hitters, getting 4 of them out. Then it was Watson for McCann, but the pitcher’s spot was due up 2nd after Watson got McCann out. Where it seemed to get odd was in the 7th, where Stripling was brought in but given only 1 hitter once he walked that hitter (Gonzalez) and then Morrow was brought in the for the next LH hitter (Reddick) rather than just letting Cingrani start the inning

In the NLCS, Roberts would use Watson and Cingrani for 1-2 outs each, with a lead, both to keep Maeda away from LH hitters and to reduce the number of outs that he was expecting from Morrow and Jansen. Games 1, 2, and 3 of the NLCS all showed some of that usage pattern. Of course, that usage pattern also looks great after the fact when the pitchers who are put in good match-ups get basically everybody out.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  lesjcarter

but the thing is, there really haven’t been many low leverage situations. The closest thing was game 3 for the Dodgers. But you understand that they were so close and thought keep the pressure on them and eventually we’ll get this game. It turned into one of those fools gold games though.

johnforthegiants
8 years ago
Reply to  stever20

I have to say that in this series nothing feels like a low leverage situation no matter what the general stats are. The Astros’ 3-run lead at the beginning of the 9th felt very high leverage even before anyone got on base.

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
8 years ago
Reply to  stever20

There have been low leverage situations in the DS and CS rounds. Especially for LAD. There has definitely been some gratuitous overuse of Morrow and Jansen.

Member since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  aff10

Maeda became that other reliable righthanded reliever for the postseason. The problem is that Roberts ran him into the ground keeping Game 3 relatively close. Oops.

Nelson S.
8 years ago
Reply to  aff10

I dont really get the aversion to using Fields? He had 1 bad appearance in Game 2, ok, but generally hes been a pretty good reliever the past few years, including this year

mikejuntMember
8 years ago
Reply to  Nelson S.

Josh Fields is basically a TTO pitcher, and against the Astros at MMP I would rather have McCarthy pitching, at least he consistently induces soft contact.

Fields is horrifying in any kind of small or hitters ballpark because all of his batted balls allowed are fairly well struck fly balls and popouts, so he has a homer problem.

mikejuntMember
8 years ago
Reply to  aff10

I think the goal was for Walker Buehler to fill this role, but he was definitely exhausted by the end of the year and his control was never there at the MLB level, and then Maeda emerged into the role.

Really the issue is that there are no innings for the LHP against the Astros lineup.

Dave TMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

As Matt says above, I think that the Dodgers LH relievers have spots against the bottom of the Astros order. The Astros’ lineups have had two LH hitters, Reddick and McCann, separated either by 1 batter in between them in the LA games (Gonzalez) or 2 batters (Gonzalez and Gattis) in the AL park games. That’s the part of the order where it looks realistic to try to use Watson or Cingrani to get some outs.

mikejuntMember
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave T

They have used them like that, but what has frequently happened is that they have gotten 2 out of 3 of those guys, let one on base, and turned over the lineup and forced Roberts to go to someone good for George Springer.

There’s no planet where Tony Cingrani gets to pitch to George Springer in the World Series with runners on base.

Even last night when Cingrani looked like he was turning in the best pitching performance of the night for the Dodgers, he then gave up a rando homer to McCann left on left which ended up being decisive in sending the game to extras.

They have have had those opportunities and they haven’t got full IP out of them most of the time.

Its true that they should be able to carve through Gonzales/Reddick/McCann at 7-8-9, but they just haven’t ever done that.

Dave TMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

If we’re going by results, Watson has appeared in 4 World Series games and faced 11 hitters to get 10 outs, including a GIDP, with 2 singles allowed (1 of them an infield single) and 1 unearned run allowed. Cingrani has faced 12 hitters across 3 games to get 9 outs, including a GIDP, while allowing 2 walks (1 intentional), 1 run (on a HR), and an infield single.

The better comparison should obviously be wOBA allowed and FIP over much larger samples, and I agree that Watson and Cingrani are not as good as Jansen, Morrow, or Maeda. I also agree with keeping both Watson and Cingrani away from the dangerous RH hitters at the top of the Astros order in any close game.

Dave’s point still stands, though, that those two, plus Stripling and McCarthy, should be perfectly reasonable options to pitch in some combination when down in a game needing a lot of innings after the starter is pulled (Game 3) or when needing only 3 outs with a 5 run lead (Game 4). The alternative has proven to be pitching Morrow in every game this series, pitching Jansen in 4 of the 5 games with 2 multi-inning appearances, and bringing Maeda back with 1 off-day after throwing 42 pitches, usage patterns that have their own not surprising downside.

lesjcarter
8 years ago

“After Andrew Miller’s dominance last October …” <– That's almost certainly a factor in this trend, but we should also remember that Andrew Miller showed similar signs of being tired last year, as did Chapman.

pedeysRSox
8 years ago
Reply to  lesjcarter

Along with Brandon Morrow as well.

Mojo
8 years ago
Reply to  lesjcarter

Exactly. Both of them were heavily used all postseason, had to throw in Game 4 and 6 respectively with six-run lead, and ultimately got bombed in the game that mattered most. Just as Showalter/Britton taught us not to underuse your best arms, Miller and Chapman should’ve taught us not to overuse your best arms.

Wu-Bacca
8 years ago
Reply to  Mojo

I totally agree that fatigue seems to be a big factor, but I also wonder if it’s opposing hitters getting extra looks at these relievers over the course of a short series. Sort of the reliever version of times-through-the-order penalty. I mean, Bregman has faced Jansen 4 times in the past week, and seems to have had no trouble picking up his cutter the last two times. After all, there IS a reason guys like Jansen and Andrew Miller aren’t starters – they just don’t have the repertoire and/or the durability for it. All of which supports Dave’s point that you shouldn’t lean too hard on anyone out of your pen.

Anon21Member since 2018
8 years ago
Reply to  Wu-Bacca

“After all, there IS a reason guys like Jansen and Andrew Miller aren’t starters – they just don’t have the repertoire and/or the durability for it.”

Yes! I feel like people frequently forget this. We have good reason to think that relievers like Jansen, Miller, and Kimbrel would be pitching like Ricky Nolasco if they were asked to shoulder Nolasco’s workload. They are good at what they do, but in the broader universe of MLB pitchers, they are not elite.

OtterMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Wu-Bacca

You beat me to the punch! But I had/have the same thought. In the playoffs, there’s a good chance that a batter will see the same reliever three, four or even five times over the course of the series. That doesn’t happen in the regular season (other than the interdivisional games). Bregman, Springer, and Altuve have all faced Jansen 4 times now; McCann is up to three.

I haven’t looked at last year’s WS, but the Cubs touched up Miller in the 5th in Game 7… and I can’t help but wonder if that was the 4th or 5th time that Rizzo, Baez, and Bryant had faced Miller.

Lou BrownMember since 2017
8 years ago

As someone pointed out in the comments of the quick post showing the rolling WP%, running out the same relievers game after game also has the potential to give batters familiarity with pitchers who only rely on 1 or 2 pitches. Seeing Jansen’s cutter a few times a year is far different from seeing it 4 times in a 5 game span.

johnforthegiants
8 years ago

There’s an inherent problem in the postseason in the sense that managers naturally feel in each round that their absolute priority is to get to the next round even if they exhaust their best pitchers in so doing, and this is naturally likely to result in exhaustion setting in by the later games of the world series. It happened last year too, and this is going to continue to be an issue. But the dodgers had two relatively short and one-sided series and so thete really isn’t a good reason for their pitching to have gotten so wipef out so fast.

RonnieDobbs
8 years ago

Another post-season problem is the media pressure to rifle through the bullpen. If you get caught losing a game with your best arms on the bench, then it is a media hell storm. Nobody want to be Buck Showalter from a few years ago. In reality, that was a very bad decision and I think everyone in the world knew it was going to blow up in his face.. managers don’t need to coach as scared as they do, but that is easier said than done.

drew_willyMember since 2020
8 years ago

“so thete [sic] really isn’t a good reason for their pitching to have gotten so wipef [sic] out so fast.”

Sure there is. Darvish was lifted in the second inning, and the pen kept it competitive after that in Game 3. The game being so close left Roberts in the tough spot of needing to throw his good relievers, else he’d feel the wrath of the media if his second-tier relievers lost a one-run game.

If Roberts had conceded Game 3 by sending McCarthy, Fields, and Stripling out there for 5+ innings (which may have been a decent move at the time, and certainly sounds ok in hindsight), he would’ve been crucified in the press. Darvish’s disastrous start and McCarthy, Fields, and Stripling all looking so bad in Game 2 really put him in a lose-lose situation.

johnforthegiants
8 years ago
Reply to  drew_willy

Sorry about the mistakes, I was typing into my cellphone in a crowded bus.

Pitching Jansen 2 innings in game 2 after he pitched in game 1 was something he’s never done in his career. Sending Jansen out to pitch the 9th inning with a 5-run lead in game 4 was a waste. Pitching Morrow in all 5 World Series games and for that matter 12 of the 13 playoff games is excessive , especially if you consider that the Dodgers averaged winning the 7 pre-WS games he pitched by more than 4 runs.

Dave TMember since 2016
8 years ago

That can happen, but it doesn’t seem to be the Dodgers’ issue this year. The Dodgers top three in the bullpen being tired looks far more tied to short-term usage during the World Series. Looking at usage:

Jansen: 50 pitches in 3 games (over 4 days) in LDS, then 4 days rest, then 50 pitches in 4 games (over 6 days) in LCS, then 4 days rest, now up to 90 pitches in 4 games (over 6 days) in the World Series

Morrow: 31 pitches in 3 games (over 4 days) in LDS, then 4 days rest, then 71 pitches in 4 games (over 6 days) in LCS, then 4 days rest, now at 57 pitches in 5 games (over 6 days) in World Series

Maeda looks to be almost purely an issue of how much he pitched in Game 3 on Friday (42 pitches over 2.2 innings while trailing by 3-4 runs), because before that he’d only thrown 71 pitches across 6 games in the whole post-season.

Game 4 of the World Series for Jansen (pitching the 9th up 5 runs) and Game 3 for Maeda stand out as the recent egregious use of them.

Maybe there’s some case that Morrow’s fatigue is tied cumulative post-season use, but even there we’re looking at him pitching 5 times in 6 days in the World Series. Again, Game 3 stands out as rather egregious for him, facing 5 hitters in the 6th and 7th innings while trailing by 2 runs.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago

Is the Houston game 7 LCS/game 3 WS model the wave of the future(esp in playoffs) take 2 average starters and tandem start them? Houston’s 2 best relief appearances of the year- McCullers in game 7 of the ALCS and Peacock in game 3 of the WS. Both on tandem starts. Where if a starter is on, he can go 3-5 innings with no issues at all.

Joe Joe
8 years ago
Reply to  stever20

When looking at xFIP, FIP, and ERA Split Leaderboards sorted for starting pitchers first 2 times through the order, McCullers, Morton, and Peacock are no worse than 22nd in any of those categories. I’d not call that average. It looks like Astros have a team strategy to find/develop starting pitching that can full out for 18 batters to team with Keuchel and now Verlander.

Dave TMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Joe Joe

I agree that part of it is having starters who are good enough – at least for 1 to 2 times through the order – that they’re better than “average”.

Another part of Game 3 strongly appears to be Hinch acting out of what he saw as necessity. It’s a lengthier discussion whether Hinch’s loss of confidence in Giles, Devenski, and Harris is recency bias or a realistic assessment, but Peacock pitching the 9th (and maybe the 8th) with a 2-run lead isn’t something that I’d expect to see as the norm for a team that has what we think of as playoff-caliber late inning relievers.

In fact, I’d say that letting Peacock keep going was based more on riding his effectiveness (11 outs in 12 batters, with 4 K’s, 1 BB, and no hits) than a full-fledged tandem start plan for that game. Hinch let McCullers face 4 batters the 3rd time through the order, and he only pulled McCullers in the 6th inning after trouble developed (2nd and 3rd with 1 out). A full-fledged tandem start plan could have pulled McCullers after 5 innings (having faced 19 hitters) and brought Peacock into the game with a clean inning, 4 run lead, and 12 outs to go.

johnforthegiants
8 years ago
Reply to  stever20

This is what I’m thinking too. The problem with bullpenning as opposed to tandem starters is that when bullpenning a lot of the relievers end up throwing a lot of warmup pitches and this wears them down more.

SnowLeopard
8 years ago
Reply to  stever20

“Where if a starter is on, he can go 3-5 innings with no issues at all.”

In that vein, I felt that Hinch should have left McHugh in longer than he did yesterday.

Obviously McHugh was off when he first got into the game, giving up two hapless walks and a three run jack almost immediately. Maybe it was that he had pitched in a game only once in twenty eight days, or maybe it was unfamiliarity with pitching in relief.

But then he settled down – five outs in the next six batters, including three Ks. He had a track record of relatively recent success, a 2.38 ERA in his previous nine game appearances.

He was fresher than the other bullpen options, having been basically unused in the postseason, and only pitching 63 innings in the regular season. Since he averaged 90 pitches in his twelve regular season starts in the regular season, one might assume that he had ~40 pitches left in him.

Really, it would have been hard for McHugh to have done much worse than the 5 ER in 3 IP than Peacock, Harris, and Devenski gave up after he was yanked. And now both McHugh and Peacock are “handle with care” for games six and seven, not just one guy.

Dave TMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  SnowLeopard

Peacock’s usage in Game 5 was curious, because he was left in for 39 pitches after having thrown 53 pitches in Game 3 on Friday night, which is obviously a lot of work across two appearances over three days.

That said, though, I don’t know if McHugh for a lot longer was a particularly great option either. He would have been going through the order again: he was pulled after 10 hitters in Game 5. He was up to 49 pitches, and I rather doubt that his typical regular season workload as a starter was a good guide to what he could have thrown in Game 5, because I doubt that he’s been preparing with an expectation of that workload. It’s also tough to know what he was told before going into Game 5 – not crazy to think that it was, give us all you have for 50 pitches or so.

Neither option was ideal, so I can see trying to get another inning out of McHugh (which would have been the 7th) but I think that anything more than that would have really been pushing it.

SnowLeopard
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave T

Thanks fot the thoughts. Your point is well taken, that there are reasons why an SP in relief is not as good for as many total pitches as if they are starting a game they knew they would start and prepared for.

That said, doesn’t seem to me that Hinch had any obviously good and obvious pitching options once Kuechel left, only less bad ones. And what I am stuck on is: if Hinch had pushed it hard and left McHugh in till he hit 100 IP, and those extra 50 pitches had yielded five runs but also nine outs, people would probably have said, “McHugh was horrible, Hinch messed up bad by leaving him in for 5 IP 8 ER, Astros are extraordinarily lucky to have won with such poor bullpen management”.

But (flapping butterfly wings notwithstanding) that box score wouldn’t have looked any different than it did in our irl timeline, and the Astros would actually have been better off than they actually now are (since Peacock would be at presumably full strength for the final games, and Devenski fresher too).

KwisatzHaderachMember since 2016
8 years ago

I think things have gone just a bit too far in terms of pulling starters early. But this isn’t an indictment of bullpenning either. The real problem with bullpenning is that you have to win the game, or you’re burning arms that are already at the end of their effectiveness so late in the season. If the Dodgers won last night it would’ve been worth it. As things stand they went all in again, and came up empty. They’re in terrible shape to try and hold off the Astros for two straight games. Particularly as Verlander can throw 130 pitches on Tuesday if need be. A rested Astros bullpen is still better than a tired Dodgers bullpen, I think.

Dave TMember since 2016
8 years ago

Agreed.

While the Astros obviously didn’t want to blow the lead in the 9th, that game ended up working out for them about as well as could be hoped. The Astros not only won, but Jansen had to throw 33 pitches.

With how little trust Hinch has in his bullpen at this point, he was almost certainly hoping to ride Verlander for something 7 or more innings in Game 6 no matter what the situation on bullpen rest for the Astros.

Of course, baseball being baseball, now we’ll probably see Hill go out in Game 6 and throw 7 or 8 great innings just to confound our expectations.

KwisatzHaderachMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave T

Yeah, four complete games by the starters seems like baseball’s next likely move.

YKnotDisco
8 years ago

That strategy worked out well for the 2005 White Sox.

johnforthegiants
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave T

And this time Roberts may actually let him.

Joe Joe
8 years ago

“Credit to the Astros hitters, of course, but Morrow wasn’t throwing the same stuff that has allowed him to overpower hitters this postseason.” Shouldn’t the Astros hitters get credit for creating a warn down bullpen that seemed to have an infinite supply of great, rested relievers just days ago.

Two great teams going at it. Every game within 2 runs in the ninth. Not sure how much the ball is playing apart, but bullpens just look spent on both sides.

johnforthegiants
8 years ago

I agree completely with the basic point of this article–in fact after game 2 i wrote here criticizing roberts not for pulling hill after 4 innings but for using jansen for 2 innings–but it isn’t accurate to say that the starting pitchers have been a failure in the world series. Before yesterday, the only really bad outing by a starter was darvish’s. Even yesterday, it maeda hadn’t immediately give up a homer kershaw would have finished giving up 4 runs in 5.2 innings, not great but not disastrous. Obviously the starters aren’t generally inspiring confidence that they can pitch effectively deep in the game, but it isn’t even close to what’s going on with the relievers, who seem to be doing relatively if they up only a run an inning.

lesjcarter
8 years ago

Kershaw pitched only 4.2 yesterday, which may not meet the “disastrous” standard, but I think would certainly constitute “bad,” especially in the World Series context.

johnforthegiants
8 years ago
Reply to  lesjcarter

Bad but still not *as* bad as who came after. Maeda had to get one batter out to held the Dodgers’ 3-run lead but instead he gave up a 3-run homer.

Dave TMember since 2016
8 years ago

My take is that when Kershaw was pulled in yesterday’s game was not all that much, if any, different than when starters were pulled in the playoffs before “extreme” or “aggressive” bullpenning. To be clear, I’m not talking about way back in the 1960’s or 1970’s, but with how baseball has been back to at least the early 2000’s.

It was the 5th inning, with 2 outs and 2 runners on. Kershaw had thrown 94 pitches, a lot of those in the 4th and 5th innings, and had walked the last two batters. He’d allowed 4 runs, all of them in the 4th inning. A very good opposite-handed hitter (Altuve) was due up next.

Maybe Kershaw would have gotten to face that next batter because he’s Kershaw. On the other hand, even managers 15 years ago who relied more on gut and “how’s he pitched lately” than on analytics and times through the order would still see a pitcher who looked to be laboring on the mound and had allowed 8 HR’s in his last 29 innings of work.

johnforthegiants
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave T

Yes pulling Kershaw then would have been normal in the olden days, but in the olden days the bullpen wouldn’t have been nearly as exhausted as it was yesterday.

RonnieDobbs
8 years ago
Reply to  lesjcarter

When the RP immediately allows a HR it looks worse than it was.

OddBall Herrera
8 years ago

This wouldn’t be such a problem if either manager were willing to go to the guy who’s presumably their back-up long man in the bullpen (Liriano and McCarthy).

Obviously they’re not the ideal pitchers to have in a world series game, but they’re also not a couple nobodies. Put McCarthy in instead of your gassed relievers (Maeda, Morrow), as it turns out he probably wouldn’t have done much worse, and even if he did about the same at least those guys are rested for Tuesday. Same goes for Liriano – he’s quite capable of getting hot and dominating for a few innings (though admittedly also capable of walking the entire lineup).

Maybe you’re saving those guys in case you go way into extra innings, but why not save Morrow/Maeda types for emergency appearances in the 13th inning instead and hope they won’t be needed?

OddBall Herrera
8 years ago

I guess, in short, if you are not willing to put those guys in the game in a situation like we had last night why are they on the roster at all? Of course bullpenning is hard when you’re apparently burning roster spots on guys you won’t use (Fields and Giles were, more justifiably, off limits yesterday too)

johnforthegiants
8 years ago

Agree 100%.

RonnieDobbs
8 years ago

Nice article. I was wondering if this would get mentioned here. This has been a good example of what overworked bullpens look like. CLE ran out of gas last year in the WS as well.

I think that bullpens should be used a bit more than they used to, but not nearly in the way that many people suggest. As we have seen, when an RP throws often he becomes a lot more like a starter – guys get multiple looks at him in a series, stuff plays down, location plays down – most importantly, they don’t get to hide from bad match-ups and they don’t have someone to clean up all of their messes. I don’t think that the bullpen revolution will be a footnote in baseball history, but it is not the future either. There are only a handful of guys capable of the heavy workload of multiple innings regularly – they are also probably capable of being starters…

Dave TMember since 2016
8 years ago

“In the 10 postseason games Jansen had pitched prior to last night, he’d entered with a five-run lead three times and a 10-run lead once.”

I agree with Dave’s broader point, but at least a couple of those games have context where Jansen pitching made some sense.

The 10-run lead was the clinching game of the NLCS (Game 5). The Dodgers knew they’d have 4 days off after that game, and Jansen hadn’t pitched in Game 4, so that’s pretty much a point where you want to get Jansen some work so that he doesn’t otherwise have 6 days off between pitching in games.

One of the 5 run leads was Game 1 of the NLDS. Jansen hadn’t pitched in a game for 5 days prior to that, so I think there’s again a long enough layoff where you probably want to get him work, and after a 5 day layoff it seems reasonable to let him shake off any rust in a game with a big lead.

The two 5-run leads that were less defensible to have Jansen pitch were Game 4 of the World Series and Game 3 of the LCS.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave T

the tough one is game 4 of the WS. I mean he had gotten totally warm and everything because of the situation at the start of the inning. Outside of the fact that the Astros got to see him again- there was no easy answer there.

Dave TMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  stever20

I see that point, and my best guess is that’s a large part of what Roberts was thinking.

Just like, in Game 3 of the NLCS, I’m pretty sure Roberts was thinking that Stripling had allowed the first two Cubs in the 9th inning to get hits, so why allow this game to turn into a tight situation that Jansen would enter anyway, never mind that the Fangraphs play log shows the Cubs with a win expectancy of only 4.4% after those 2 batters reached in a 5 run game. BTW, in Game 4 of the World Series Fangraphs put the Astros’ win expectancy at 0.7% starting the bottom of the 9th down 5 runs.

But it turns into an issue when the manager is always eager to find a rationale to allow Jansen to throw an extra 15 pitches or so in a game – whether that’s entering a relatively low leverage 5-run game or going multiple innings in a high-leverage game – and very reluctant to accept any rationale to spare Jansen from an extra 15 pitches in a game.

It does seem like we’ve just replaced “ride your ace starters until they can’t do it, they’re horses” to “ride your ace relievers until they can’t do it, they’re horses”. As Dave Cameron astutely notes, that wasn’t really the point of advocating for more aggressive bullpen use in the playoffs.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave T

problem is the timing. Watson was told he was done after 8. So he’s out….

The Dodgers take the lead but are up only 2-1 with 2 out in the 9th. Then the grand slam happens, and you are up 6-1. Next batter sees 2 pitches and inning over..

Given that- and the fact that with that point- the Dodgers only had Cingrani, Fields, McCarthy, and Stripling left- none are warmed (nor would you want to have warmed them quite frankly in case the game goes extras)- I just don’t see how you can blame Roberts there.

Dave TMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  stever20

I don’t see any big problem with having Stripling starting to get loose when there are runners on 2nd and 3rd with nobody out and a 2-1 lead. The sequence from there was strike out – intentional walk – sac fly – 3 run homer – 2 pitch out.

Heck, for that matter also tell Hernandez (the last batter) that with a 5 run lead his job is to stall by taking pitches until he has at least two strikes and asking for time frequently between pitches.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave T

I would think that the most likely outcome in that situation is either 1-2 runs. So only a 2-3 run lead. Meaning that Jansen is in the game.

And I do think the Dodgers didn’t want to start someone else in the 9th and then have to go to Jansen anyways.

Dave TMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  stever20

I don’t at all accept that average or above average middle relievers like Watson or Stripling are true talent 9 to 18 ERA pitchers, even against a very good Astros line-up. That’s what we’d have to accept to think that the “most likely outcome” is that they give up 1-2 runs.

Sorry, but I can’t accept that, and it’s downright silly to think they’re that bad. Fangraphs doesn’t focus a lot on WHIP in favor of more precise statistics, but Stripling has a WHIP of about 1.2 over his two year career that’s been a mix of starting and relieving. The most likely outcome for one inning from Ross Stripling is that not even two hitters reach base before he gets 3 outs.

And, honestly, depending on the timing, I don’t see that 1 or even 2 runs has to matter that much. The lead at the start of that inning was 5 runs. With 2 outs, a solo homer or two run homer still means a 3 or 4 run lead with nobody on base and just one out to go.

Dave TMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  stever20

Also – why tell Watson that he’s done for sure? He’d thrown nine pitches to get three outs in the 8th. A LH hitter (McCann) was due to lead off the 9th.

It doesn’t seem that tough to tell Watson, “great job, Tony, good chance that’s it, but we’ll see what happens here in the 9th.”

Lark
8 years ago

So in few years, there could be a new theory for relievers like the “third time though the order” one for starters, like “It’s better not let your relievers face same hitter x times in a playoff series” ?

johnforthegiants
8 years ago
Reply to  Lark

This would be a great idea.

RonnieDobbs
8 years ago

The real crime committed by Dave Roberts was using Kenley the previous day with a big lead. Not only did he give the Astros extra looks at him, but he was also out of gas when they actually needed him the next day. I hope that one day off is enough for him to have something in the tank, but I am not sure. He looked like he had nothing left in the 10th inning yesterday. I thought one of the more telling moments was when he called out his catcher with nobody on in the 10th. All he throws are FB… I figure he had to have been telling Barnes that something was off.

Member since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  RonnieDobbs

When Jansen started warming up in Game 4, it was a 1-1 tie. While he might have been a little fresher yesterday if he hadn’t actually pitched, it’s not like he would have had a real day off yesterday.

RonnieDobbs
8 years ago
Reply to 

I disagree with that point. He would have been a lot fresher. Getting loose in the bullpen is overblown by John Smoltz. Guys throw bullpens all the time, its part of their routine. It is a zero stress situation unless you have to run out there in the middle of a crazy inning – which he didn’t. I get your point, but pitching a full inning in the World Series and surrendering two hits – one of which was a HR (to the guy that walked it off the next day) is not a day off.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  RonnieDobbs

small problem with what you’re saying… timing….

Watson probably was told you’re done after the 8th. So he’s gone… Plus it was a real long 9th with a pitching change, I’m sure 2 other mound trips by pitching coach, and also 23 pitches. So not exactly a quick inning by any stretch.

The HR to give them the 6-1 lead was hit by the next to last batter of the inning.

The next batter with 2 outs saw 2 pitches. So really no shot to get anyone up.

So Jansen was the only one prepared to go in to start the 9th. And at that point- he doesn’t come out. This one you really can not blame Roberts for. It’s definitely not like the other ones.

RonnieDobbs
8 years ago
Reply to  stever20

I hear you point, but that is bad managing in my opinion. In a spot like that, you should probably have two guys loose. There is not really a good reason to only have one guy loose unless the bullpen is already used up, which it wasn’t. Why not have Cingrani (LHP) or McCarthy (long guy) get stretched out and throw a few balls? Getting loose as I describe it should probably happen for most guys on most nights. When you get caught without anyone loose in the pen or only one guy, then you aren’t doing your job as manager well.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  RonnieDobbs

McCarthy they wouldn’t have in to not waste him(if he gives up anything, he’s out of there, and he’s the long guy like you alluded to). Cingrani, Fields, or Stripling would have been the options. Stripling had thrown 15 pitches night before. Cingrani 8(and they had the righty section of lineup coming up).

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
8 years ago

What the articles misses is that pitchers aren’t the same guy every time they climb the bump. If that was the case we would be casting Charlie Morton’s Hall of Fame plaque right now. Major league hitters are going to hit some balls hard and that will increase some as the game moves into the later innings, but is a tiring Justin Verlander better than a reliever who has never even dreamed of having Verlander’s stuff and has been overused himself? I think that is a fair question. What about a back of the rotation starter who is cruising? Let us call him Alex Plastic and question whether he should be yanked even before he has given up a hit. The ensuing bullpen usage is cumulative and must be measured, not just by that game’s result, but by what happened in the ensuing games. I was beginning to get the impression that this idea of bullpenning was going to move into the regular season. Pitching staffs might reach fourteen and, heaven forbid, rosters would be expanded. The idea of having a 30 man roster then designating 25 for each game is absurd. The four starters who wouldn’t be pitching are left off and four more relievers are added. This would mean even more pitching changes and 5:17 games would be the norm..

Raidas77
8 years ago

In a 7 game series, what’s the difference between a starter going three times through the order and hitters getting a look at a reliever every day? It’s not that big of a deal during the season where most series are of the 3 game variety, but the Houston hitters have gotten a LOT of looks at Morrow, Jansen and Co. Diminished stuff or not, there is some familiarity there.

RonnieDobbs
8 years ago
Reply to  Raidas77

The diminished stuff is the bigger problem IMO.

johnforthegiants
8 years ago

I’m starting to get the feeling that tandem starters is going to be more the wave of the future in postseason games than bullpenning (except in actual elimination games for both teams). The problem with bullpenning for a series in general is that a lot of relievers wind up throwing a lot of warmup pitches and this also adds to their tiredness. This doesn’t happen with tandem starters. Tandem starters give the advantage of not letting the other team hit too many times against the same pitcher without exhausting the staff to nearly the same extent. Even the way Francona used Miller last year was more like tandem starters because he’d typically stay in for a few innings.

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
8 years ago

Assuming the tandem starters are the Game 3 or 4 guys, is it wise to pull a guy if he is doing the job through five? Why, the guy coming in isn’t Pedro. Smoltz has been ostracized for holding onto his belief that a pitcher has to be knocked out of the game. Until teams carry 16 pitchers that the manager trusts, Francisco Liriano doesn’t count, there is a limit to how much a bullpen can be used, even in a short series.

Six Ten
8 years ago
Reply to  bosoxforlife

Your Liriano aside gets to the bigger issue for me. Why carry Liriano if you don’t trust him? “Well, we don’t have any other pitching options.” Then don’t worry about pitching. Add another bat. “Well, we need someone who can throw long relief.” If a World Series game gets to a long relief situation, you’re basically in cross-our-fingers-and-hope territory, or in welp-we-got-crushed-tonight territory. Brad Peacock works in the first situation; position players trading spots on the diamond to avoid killing their arms work in the second.

Sure, you’d like to have a flexible bullpen, but if your choice is a pitcher who you treat like he has leprosy or a position player you are actually ready to use as a bench bat, baserunner, or defensive sub, pick the position player every time.

A long relief game in the World Series is vanishingly rare. Building a roster around it is a bad idea. Don’t roster players you don’t want to use.

Matt
8 years ago
Reply to  Six Ten

Well, to be fair, teams only have so many guys they trust. It’s not like Fisher or Beltran have really gotten a ton of action either, so I doubt whoever is after them on the depth charts would get much action either.

What’s surprising is that with McHugh and Peacock in the bullpen, they don’t need Liriano to be a long man, but they’re not even using him as a Loogy either. Maybe not for Seager or Bellinger who can hit lefties, but in the top of the 8th, when Ethier pinch hit and they went to Devenski, that would have been an obvious time for him. Or you could have gone to him for Pederson’s AB, and then switch to Harris after, assuming that Peacock is likely not going to make it through the entire inning.

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Matt

Of course. If Liriano isn’t even a LOOGY he has no business on the roster. If they trail 11-1 in the 3rd then McHugh, a starter, can take one for the team and throw seven meaningless innings.

RonnieDobbs
8 years ago

Teams have a hard enough time finding 4 reliable arms, I don’t know where the rest are supposed to come from. You would be getting less out of your best arms and more out of your mediocre ones. Personally, I think that familiarity is overblown. That third time through the order coincides with fatigue as well. It definitely matters, but bad pitchers throwing more innings is a worse problem. Starters are really good at pitching – we see this when they go to the bullpen and go from mediocre to elite. You are not going to have 8 starters – well a few teams might, but not most. You want those starters throwing as long as they can ideally. I don’t buy the tandem starter theory, but a lot of people do and I am OK with that. As for Miller, he was out of gas last year and spent time on the DL this year. I don’t know that he is a model for anything – he is also uniquely talented and can survive with less than 100% of his stuff and most guys can’t.

johnforthegiants
8 years ago

Roberts using Jansen to pitch the 9th in game 4 with a 5-run read really was just a terrible blunder. After both Francona and Maddon fouled up last year by using Miller and Chapman with huge leads in games 4 and 6 respectively, and after Jansen had already blown a 6-out save in game 2 after pitching an inning the day before, it’s incredible that Roberts made the same mistake.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago

this one though a bit different. He was totally warm and ready to go. And would have had to continue to be loose because if they get in any trouble in the 9th- he’s in there.

johnforthegiants
8 years ago
Reply to  stever20

So what if he was warmed up? Roberts could still have saved some wear and tear by not sending him out. And with a 5-run lead in the 9th the Dodgers had a 99.29% chance of winning, there really wasn’t much chance of getting into trouble. After Bellinger doubled in the go-ahead run, the Dodgers had a 94.01% of winning the game, and after that there was a pitching change and 5 more batters came to the plate, there was plenty of time for another pitcher to warm up. It was actually even worse than was happened last year with Miller and Chapman last year because those cases were in earlier innings when the win was less of a sure thing.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago

And yet with 2 outs it was still a 93% chance of winning for LA. But still, even there- Jansen would be all in getting ready because if there’s an out- he’s in no matter what.. The ONLY part that would have been good would have been that Houston goes another day with not seeing him.

Also, like Houston showed last night- doesn’t take much to get them warmed up.

RoyalsFan#14321Member since 2020
8 years ago

So naturally, Verlander is going to toss a 10 inning gem on Tuesday, and we’ll get to re-ignite the Jack Morris HOF debate.

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
8 years ago

I think Hinch will give him at least three runs to work with and at least 120 pitches if he has anything.

SnowLeopard
8 years ago

Even if he retired tomorrow, Verlander already has better HoF credentials than Morris

Six Ten
8 years ago

What if Ned Yost is a genius?

Mojo
8 years ago

I think this applies to this year’s Yankees as well. They had crazy-deep bullpen, but Girardi never trusted anybody other than Green-Kahnle-Robertson-Chapman and it backfired in the latter part of ALCS with Kahnle/Robertson meltdown. Yes they DID play a lot of games, but they could’ve been handled better had Girardi let other guys pitch more often for low leverage situations, instead of sending out Kahnle with 8-run or 5-run lead like he did in Game 3 and 5 of ALCS.

tb.25
8 years ago

Risk Aversion at it’s finest.

A great twitter follow is TangoTiger. He’s been posting polls with expected value questions that analyze risk aversion relative to expected outcome.

Alice Cooper
8 years ago

Occam’s Razor

Relief pitchers, in general, aren’t as good as starting pitchers.(Miller himself was a failed starter)

Therefore, the more innings they throw, the more they’ll regress; their numbers will be worse than small sample bites in the regular season.

Makes sense to me.

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
8 years ago

Put more succinctly: if you’re going to use a “bullpenning” strategy, you are going to have to use your WHOLE BULLPEN.

I have to say the FanGraphs comment section has been ahead of the FanGraphs writers on this one; Roberts’s overreliance on a few arms is something we’ve been talking about — predictively! — below the fold all postseason long, while this piece, now, seems like post-hoc reasoning.

Richie
8 years ago

My impression on Dave is that he’s been a bit open-minded on this. He has criticized last year’s eventual overuse of Miller and Chapman.

johnforthegiants
8 years ago

Yes, that was certainly a big theme in our discussion after game 2.

Dave TMember since 2016
8 years ago

Dave Cameron did criticize Roberts for using Morrow and Jansen, and warming up Maeda, up 5 runs in Game 3 of the NLCS – https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/why-did-dave-roberts-let-yu-darvish-hit/#more-266622

William
8 years ago

Seems like the solution is to train more guys to pitch 3+ innings in the regular season, so that in the playoffs every pitcher on the roster (save for maybe the closer) can just go at least one time through the order and has a lot of practice doing it. There’s probably some sweetspot as well in terms of number of days you need depending on how many pitches you throw

RonnieDobbs
8 years ago
Reply to  William

I don’t think teams actually possess many guys that they would want out there for 3+ innings. They rarely have 5.

alpha309
8 years ago

I will never be on the bullpenning bandwagon.

1. Once you go to the bullpen too early you are committed to the strategy, and if something goes wrong, there is really no turning back. If just one pitcher doesn’t have it, you are risking a fire that is hard to put out quickly. Prime example is Hill. I honestly think he was taken out of the game an inning too early, if not more. He was pitching fine, only had thrown 60 pitches, and was coming into a clean inning. That decision gave the bullpen an extra inning of work, which could have been saved. If he came out and walked someone, or it looked like Houston had him read, swap him out quick. Once the plan is in effect, there is no going back at all. I am a believer in having as many options as possible.
2. This time of year, these innings are so high leverage and stressful, I don’t think even regular rest for a pitcher is enough to get ready, especially after a long season. These pitchers are forced to be on 100% of the time and they are trying to throw everything perfectly. That is not a good recipe for their arms, and the stress is really showing on these guys now.
3. These pitchers are just not used to this. If they are going to be used this way, then you need to be preparing them through the season. You wouldn’t take a firefighter and ask him to be a policeman all of a sudden. That is almost what you are asking of these relievers.

Los
8 years ago
Reply to  alpha309

To address a couple of your points:

1)
“If just one pitcher doesn’t have it” – data constantly shows that Expected performance for a reliever first time through is better than Expected performance for a starter multiple times through. Obviously if you have an ace their dip in performance is still better than the performance of your middle reliever so that will just have to weigh in on the decision.

“He was pitching fine” – it has been proven multiple times that in start performance has no correlation to performance later in the start. There is no way of knowing if a pitcher is “on” or whatever you want to call it.

2 and 3) Agree with you on these points. The way to combat that is to use all of your options instead of just overworking a few of them. On the point of pitchers not being used to this, this is something that needs to change in the game to make it more viable and reliable in the post-season. To me it is obvious that either the postseason use is broken or the regular season use is broken. You obviously can’t use the current post-season model in the regular season but I think you can blend the approach and make it viable long term.

alpha309
8 years ago
Reply to  Los

But as other posters have pointed out, while the data shows third time through the order penalties, it doesn’t take into account repeated looks at the same relievers. The same relievers throwing to the same batters several times in a week just doesn’t happen in the regular season, and when the same reliever is coming in to get the same outs, I would guess that Jensen suffers from similar penalties facing Bregman, Altuve, and Correa multiple times in a week. Most of the time these hitters are seeing pitchers much less often than this. Even in division, the same reliever may only face the same batters 3-4 times a month, let alone 3-4 times over a week. At this point, I may argue that the three times through the order penalty may not be as great as the tired reliever being seen by the same hitters repeatedly penalty. I just am not sure what the data would show on it, but both this postseason, and last postseason looks to me like it is a huge penalty, but then again, I have not actually researched, or will likely have the time to research on my own. I would love to see it though.

I just don’t think the evidence that we have based on regular season usage and situations show the same thing in different circumstances. Research of the regular season may as well be a completely different animal than what we are looking at. I would assume given the stress and different usage the numbers that are commonly accepted may no longer apply. I honestly don’t know. But watching the games makes me 100% think that what we think we know, may not apply at all to the situation we are looking at.

And it appears by just watching the games with my eyes, that the residual effects as the series goes on is possibly worse than the beliefs that the third time through the order penalty is as bad as we think it is.

I truly think that what we knew about baseball is much less than what we still do not know about baseball. If we knew 2% 20 years ago, I firmly believe we only know about 4% now.

Deacon DrakeMember since 2017
8 years ago

The Bullpenning strategy will not go away, but managers will opt to diversify their options.

First, most teams “power 3” relievers (closer, set-up, specialist) are effective because they represent a change of pace from what ever the starter was dishing. Typically, starters are not out there averaging 97 and touching 100 with crazy cut action. However, when managers start throwing those types of guys into the game earlier, it gives the offense more reps against that type of heat and movement to get locked in. I blame the Royals and their deployment of Ventura/Herrera a few years ago.

Second, starters are typically made starters because they stand a better chance of generating more outs over the course of a game. Trust me, if a manager thought he could get 18-21 outs once a week out of Jansen over the 3 outs 3 times a week he currently gets, they’d make the move. However, Jansen and Kuechel are elite at what they do, but it is the assumption that a bullpen contain that many arms to bridge the gap if the starter isn’t capable of starting the third time through the order. The Dodgers and Astros are pretty deep in the bullpen, but most of those guys are never stressed due to their offensive proliferation. It’s easy to cruise against the Padres with a 5 run lead.

Moving starters into relief roles is a calculated gamble… sometimes it pays off, other times not so much.

I think the strategy that teams will deploy when Bullpenning in the future will be to mix up pitching styles so that hitters can’t just sit on fastball/slider combos for 6 innings.

ice_hawk10
8 years ago

for the trend to shorter starts to continue, teams are going to have to prioritize bullpen depth as much as high end talent. i’d wager perhaps the Dodgers are regretting pulling the best pitcher in the world in game one at 80 pitches after 7 dominant innings, and not banking Morrow/Jansen innings for later in the series.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  ice_hawk10

only thing there was Kershaw was showing some signs of fatigue in the 7th. Also the heat probably has something to do with it.

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
8 years ago

To me, the real story is bailing on adequate or even good relievers because of tiny sample sizes of 2-3 outings and fewer than 10 batters faced.

kroywen
8 years ago

I’d be curious to see how the quality of the starting pitcher affects this evaluation, as well as number of pitches thrown by the starter.

While every starter is going to lose some effectiveness each time through the lineup, there’s a big difference between Clayton Kershaw going through a lineup a third time versus Ricky Nolasco the third time through. I’d guess that there’s also likely a significant difference between a starting pitcher with a low pitch count and no high leverage situations so far, versus one with an elevated pitch count who’s pitched in and out of jams all game.

I have little doubt that a well-rested middle reliever is going to be more effective than the average starting pitcher the third time through the lineup. But would a middle reliever be more effective than an ace – guys like Kershaw, Kluber, Keuchel, etc.? (Side note: how fitting is it that so many current aces have last names starting with “K”, especially in this ‘era of the strikeout’?)

I find it somewhat hard to believe that a guy like Josh Fields would be more effective than Kershaw the third time through (assuming Kershaw isn’t laboring, like he was for parts of last night). But I’d love to see an analysis that incorporates in (a.) starter’s stats, (b.) reliever’s stats, (c.) starter’s pitch count/leverage index, and (d.) recent reliever usage (days of rest, IP in past week, etc.).

Dave TMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  kroywen

I’m cheating a bit here, because I’ll use career numbers that probably should still be regressed toward league average. With that caveat, however:

Kershaw career third time through the order: .266 wOBA allowed, 2.80 FIP, 3.17 xFIP

Fields career numbers (which are all relief innings): .293 wOBA allowed, 3.28 FIP, 3.74 FIP

So Fields overall doesn’t look to be as good as Kershaw on a third time through the order.

If we just look at Fields against RH hitters, however, the comparison gets more interesting.

Fields career against RH hitters: .275 wOBA allowed, 2.72 FIP, 3.16 xFIP

So we can make a good case that Fields is probably about the same as Kershaw if Kershaw is third time through the order against a RH hitter.

kroywen
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave T

Very interesting – thanks for those numbers.

I’d be inclined to say that even against three straight RH hitters due up, it generally wouldn’t make much sense to lift Kershaw for Fields after two times through the lineup (unless Kershaw has labored and doesn’t have his best stuff that day). You’re not getting much of a improvement in performance, if any, and you’d be taxing the bullpen (using Fields at that moment precludes using him in a later situation, and thus taxes the bullpen further).

I wonder if part of the reason that top relievers have been so overused this postseason is that they’re the only way to provide a significant improvement over a top starter the third time through. In other words, managers know they’re not going to get a significant improvement by deploying a middle reliever rather than sticking with their ace, so they’re going to their top relievers in the middle innings instead. And thus said top relievers are taxed further, and lose effectiveness as the postseason goes on.

It will be interesting to see how ‘bullpenning’ evolves over the next few postseasons. It wouldn’t surprise me to see managers leave in their ace more often, so as to avoid overusing top relievers, and since going to a middle reliever wouldn’t provide much of an increase in value.

Dave TMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  kroywen

Stretching to cover innings is some of it, but a lot of it is just using these top relievers almost every game. As Dave Cameron points out, it’s using them almost regardless of whether or not the team is ahead by a little, ahead by a lot, or trailing.

And I don’t see stretching starters as a great solution for closers and top set-up guys, because I doubt that we’re going to get back to complete games by starters being a common occurrence. So the top relievers are still going to cover 2-3 innings in a lot of games even if the starters keep going as long as they are effective and don’t have a high pitch count. There’s also a cumulative fatigue question for ace-level starters if they are going to stay in post-season games for 110-120 pitches, so pushing the starters up to high pitch counts doesn’t seem like a great solution.

As an example, the Dodgers have played 13 games so far this post-season. Morrow has pitched in 12 of them facing a total of 48 batters – http://www.espn.com/mlb/player/gamelog/_/id/28734/brandon-morrow . Jansen has pitched in 11 facing a total of 53 batters – http://www.espn.com/mlb/player/gamelog/_/id/29630/kenley-jansen . There have been games in which they’ve both pitched late with the Dodgers up by 5 runs or more at the time. Morrow pitched with the Dodgers trailing by 2 runs in Game 3 of the World Series. (The 8 to 10-run lead in the clinching Game 5 of the NLCS was a special circumstance. Each Morrow and Jansen pitched an inning, but it got in work that resulted in 4 days of rest before the World Series rather than 6 days without work during a game. I can see the argument for letting them pitch an inning rather than have an unusually long layoff for a reliever.)

For Jansen and Morrow, I’d say that cumulative workload for the post-season isn’t the issue so much as how much they’ve been asked to pitch since the World Series started on October 24. Morrow has pitched in every game of the World Series, so 5 appearances in 6 days. Jansen has pitched in 4 of the 5 games of the World Series, with two multi-inning appearances.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave T

but look at this year-
Kershaw 3rd time through the order .298 wOBA, 4.07 FIP, 3.01 xFIP
Fields entire season this year- .267 wOBA, 4.18 FIP, 4.11 xFIP
Fields vs rh hitters this year- .230 wOBA, 3.13 FIP, 3.71 xFIP

Dave TMember since 2016
8 years ago

I see an interesting contrast with current use that I’ll call “post-Indians 2016 bullpenning” and earlier uses such as the Cardinals in 2011 and Giants in 2014.

Here are total post-season pitching stats for those two teams and for this year’s Dodgers:

http://www.espn.com/mlb/team/stats/pitching/_/name/stl/year/2011

http://www.espn.com/mlb/team/stats/pitching/_/name/sf/year/2014

http://www.espn.com/mlb/team/stats/pitching/_/name/lad/los-angeles-dodgers

The Cardinals had 4 relievers with 10-12 appearances each and 10.1 to 13.1 innings pitched each. Two other relievers pitched approximately 8 innings. The Cardinals played 18 games that postseason (1 below the maximum then), so La Russa at least somewhat picked his spots to divide the workload.

With the Giants, Petit was an outlier due to long appearances (4 relief appearances totaling 12.2 innings). For more normal use, however, the Giants had Affeldt with 11.2 innings in 11 games and three other relievers with high single digit innings, again showing Bochy dividing the workload and picking his spots. They got to that usage over 17 total games.

For this year’s Dodgers, Jansen is already at 13.2 innings in 11 games and Morrow is already at 12.1 innings in 12 games, with one or two games remaining. The Dodgers have played only 13 postseason games so far because they won their first two series so handily. Even with fewer games played, though, the Dodgers’ go-to relievers haven’t really seen any benefit of reduced workload. In fact, it looks like they both may pitch more innings, across more appearances, than what we thought of just a few years ago as really aggressive use of the bullpen across multiple long playoff series.

johnforthegiants
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave T

Bochy was indeed careful to keep his bullpen from getting too tired. The one time there was a problem was the 9th inning of the 5th game against St. Louis when Casilla was pitching his 3rd day in a row and clearly didn’t have it, and Bochy pulled him for Affeldt. In fairness, though, the ways things played out made it relatively easy for Bochy–the Washington and St. Louis series’ had a lot of close games but they only went 4 and 5 games, while the KC series went 7 but didn’t have so many close games.

John Autin
8 years ago

I think one of the lessons will be that, while the extra off days let your best relievers carry a bigger share of the workload, you’re better off choosing EITHER extra outings OR extra outs per appearance — not both.

Consider Jansen: Counting Monday’s off day, he’s pitched 11 times over 25 days, totaling 13.2 innings. Projecting that into a team-season yields 80 outings and 99 innings, at 3.7 outs per appearance. His typical regular season is 66 games and 66 innings, 3.0 outs per appearance. He hasn’t touched 70 games or 70 IP in the last 4 seasons. He’s done extra outings AND extra batters per game.

Outside of April (when he’s freshest), Jansen’s career high for any other month is 54 batters. He’s faced 55 already this postseason.

And if you want your best guys sharp when the stakes are highest, don’t use them as security blankets in low-leverage spots. In the NLCS, Jansen pitched 4 times over 6 days. One was a tie game, but the others all began with the tying run not even on deck.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

I would even take out the LDS….
Morrow 9/10 games (in 17 days- to include today!) 8.2 IP
Jansen, Watson 8/10 games Jansen 10 IP, Watson 5.2 IP
Maeda 6/10 games 7.2 IP
Cingrani/Stripling 5/10 games

9 games in 16 days is a lot. And that’s what Morrow tried to do last night.

John Autin
8 years ago

I agree “there’s been more room for work from Stripling, McCarthy, Watson, and Cingrani,” but let’s not inflate their ability.

— Stripling’s 55 relief games over 2 years show a 3.56 ERA and 23% SO and a high HR rate.
— Cingrani’s 3 relief years all have seen ERAs over 4.
— Watson’s last 2 years were mediocre for a reliever, 4.41 FIP and below 20% SO. He’s not who he used to be.
— McCarthy has just 4 relief games in the last 10 years, and his 3 this year were nothing special. He could give solid long relief, and perhaps that’s the biggest omission by Roberts so far, but he’s hardly inspiring.

Now it may still be that a fresh-but-ordinary RP like those guys is a better bet than Rich Hill after 2 turns. But for postseason skippers in the heat of the moment, it’s a challenge to truly believe that. Even harder is selling that notion to all the second-guessers; that’s not supposed to worry them, but we’re all human. If you’re pulling Hill after 4 IP for Stripling, you’ve got a lot of explaining to do.

johnforthegiants
8 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

They aren’t very good but (a) they aren’t exhausted, and (b) using them will give more rest to Jansen/Morrow/Maeda, who can be very good if they aren’t exhausted. I have the feeling that at this point though it’s too late for Morrow this year. You can’t use someone 12 times in 13 games and expect them to recover before the spring.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago

Fascinating looking at the pitching in this series…
Starters-
Hou 13 er in 28 ip 4.18 ERA 20 h, 9 bb 22 k 1.036 WHIP 4 HR
LAD 13 er in 23 ip 5.09 ERA 17 h, 9 bb 23 k 1.130 WHIP 4 HR

Relief-
Hou 16 er in 19 ip 7.58 ERA 16 h, 9 bb 22 k 1.316 WHIP 5 HR
LAD 14 er in 23.2 ip 5.32 ERA 28 h 7 bb 13 k 1.479 WHIP 9 HR

while the relief ERA goes for the Dodgers, the Astros have absolutely grounded the Dodgers to a pulp.

If I’m doing the FIP right the pen numbers even more amazing the Dodgers are still in this-
Hou 4.38 FIP Starters 5.66 FIP Bullpen
LAD 4.56 FIP Starters 7.86 FIP Bullpen

The Houston starters been slightly overpitching their FIP. Dodgers slightly underpitching. Houston’s pen has underpitched their FIP. LA’s has overpitched their FIP- but they’ve gotten in so much trouble that they weren’t able to work out of everything.

John Autin
8 years ago

“There’s simply too much data to illustrate the diminishing returns provided by a tiring starter against good hitters a third time through the order.”
— That’s fine as it is. But then you cherry-pick specific examples, one of which is irrelevant to the point, and make some errors of details and of omission.

“Kershaw walked both of the hitters he faced the third time through last night.”
— But Kershaw STARTED to stink at the start of the SECOND time through the order. He walked his 10th batter, then gave solid hits to the 12th-13th and a ROCKET homer to the 14th. His “third time through” was 2 walks to 2 batters. Is that a sign of tiring, as compared with the mistake pitches in the prior inning?

“Yu Darvish got pulled in the second inning on Friday because he couldn’t get anybody out.”
— Which has nothing to do with this topic.

“The Astros stuck with Justin Verlander in Game 2, and he gave up a couple of home runs that put his team in a hole.”
— The first HR was by the 15th batter. The second HR was third-time-through.

” Charlie Morton‘s brilliant outing on Saturday aside, this hasn’t exactly been a series in which starting pitchers have made a compelling case to be pushed deep into the game.”
— Kershaw in Game 1 retired 5 out of 6 the third time through (one ground single). He looked compelling to me.

Don’t get me wrong — I’m not denying the third-time-through effect. But don’t try to boost that with data from this Series, unless you’re also going to address how the RPs have been FAR worse than any expected third-time collapse by the starters (RPs 7.93 RA/9, 1.70 WHIP, 7.5% HR, 10% SO-BB). The point rests on big data; leave it there.

johnforthegiants
8 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

This is really the point here. The third-time through effect doesn’t mean that the manager should pull the starter if (a) he doesn’t trust his middle relievers, or (b) he’s going to exhaust his top relievers.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago

For LA, it’s a brutal situation. You have a starter who definitely wouldn’t be fresh after 18 bf, and then with the way Houston’s lineup is, you have a platoon disadvantage with the 1st 5 guys the 3rd time in the lineup. A real double whammy.

Dave TMember since 2016
8 years ago

True, but with respect to (a), a big caveat is that part of the point of analyzing the TTOP was to demonstrate that the manager often should trust even his average-ish middle relievers more than he does a lot of his starting pitchers at that point in the game.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

well just the real extreme small sample size of the series shows the 3rd time impact. in the series- there have been 26 pa’s vs pitchers 3rd time thru. Those total are 7-21 with 3 homers and 5 walks. All 3 homers gave the opposing team the lead. 10 of the 12 guys who got on base scored.

noah2112
8 years ago

I am fairly certain all the current science says the same thing: pitching on consecutive days is very, very stressful on pitchers. In fact, pitching 1 inning each over 2 days is probably much more stressful than throwing 2 innings in one game (all other factors equal). Everyone talks about Miller in 2016, but I am pretty sure in the playoffs he pitched multiple innings more often than he pitched in back-to-back games. I don’t think its any coincidence that the Dodgers troubles started after Roberts used Morrow and Jansen in game 2 after using them both in game 1.