Sonny Gray Is a Mystery
“Grips are meaningless,” Oakland A’s starting pitcher Sonny Gray once told me. Maybe that’s why we haven’t yet had a good talk, despite calling the same clubhouse home half the time. He didn’t quite mean “meaningless,” it occurred to me, when we finally discussed his repertoire. But there’s another reason he’s found it difficult to talk the way pitchers often talk to me: He’s changing things from pitch to pitch, according to what he sees. That includes grips, finger pressure and pitching mix. It’s hard to say he’s been doing something different when he’s always doing something different.
It’s difficult to figure out the righty. His breaking balls, for example: One classifying system says he’s currently throwing more sliders than ever. One says he’s in a three-year high for curveballs. A third says he’s right about where he’s always been, but that his recent good stretch may have coincided with an increased use of his slider.
Is he throwing more sliders now that he’s healthy? Gray shrugs. “Even before I got hurt, I was throwing sliders, and I was throwing them at 88, 89 mph,” he says. No system has him throwing a breaking ball that hard. “Whatever people call the pitch is what they are going to call it. It’s a hard curveball, I guess. The grip is a little bit different, but it does have a curveball action.”
Here’s an 89 mph slider from a start earlier this year. It looks like a true slider, though, not really a hard curveball.
Once you think you have a handle on that, ask him about his hard curve. “When I get to two strikes sometimes, he’ll throw a three down, and I’ll throw a hard curve.” The “he” is Gray’s catcher. “We all know it’s a curve, it has the same shape, but sometimes I throw it at 85 and it comes out of my hand good that way.”
He mentions a specific hard curve he threw to Anthony Rendon recently that was classified as a slider but had the shape of his curve. “I threw one to Rendon and it was 85.6 and it was the same as my 81.”
Okay, so he has a slider, but it’s like a hard curve, but he throws it with different grip, and he also has a hard curve that he throws with the same grip as his curve. Maybe he was right that grips don’t matter to him.
Let’s look at the movement of his many breaking balls and see how many clusters we think we can see. Lumped in are all of his cutters, sliders, and curveballs from the last three years. Horizontal and vertical movement are represented by the x- and y-axis, respectively; velocity, by color. Here’s the link to the interactive Tableau setup.

It’s easy to see the slider and the curve in there. But look at that white area in between the two. Is that another pitch? Are we seeing a combination of slider, hard curve, and regular curve? We can’t call an 80 mph curve “slow,” necessarily, but it might also be a little different than that 85 mph thing. And then there’s the other possibility, that all this is just one pitch thrown a bit differently.
For context, consider a similar graph (Tableau) for a pitcher who throws all three pitches (cutter, curve, and slider) on the breaking-ball continuum — namely, Corey Kluber. Kluber’s data points seem more distinct, with definitively more white area between his cutter and slider, and perhaps less fuzz between his slider and his curveball.

Now let’s get even weirder. Gray is regularly throwing a cut fastball that’s being classified as a four-seamer. “It’s a four-seam fastball that I can manipulate, get around it a little bit more,” Gray said of the pitch. “I do it on purpose. It’s grip… I’ll grip a four-seam and if I want to make it cut a little more I’ll change the grip a little. I just offset the four-seam to cut a little more. Some of it is finger pressure. I’ll pull down a little more.”
Oh, really. Here’s an example that Gray pointed out: “Look at the pitch I threw to Brian Goodwin to strike him out in the first inning.”
And another to Bryce Harper on an 0-1 count.
So that’s a 94 mph fastball that drops like a slider… literally. Sliders with similar drops to those two pitches belong to Jake Arrieta, Jacob deGrom, and Max Scherzer. Scherzer’s new power slider and deGrom’s Warthen Slider sit in the low 90s. But not 94.
Gray described (and showed me) a cut fastball like the one Adam Ottavino fashioned from looking at Mariano Rivera, and yet it looks like a slider and hums in the low 90s. This is a nutty pitch.
Is this like the quarterback thing? In football, it’s sometimes said that if you have three quarterbacks, you have no quarterbacks. Gray knows all about it: “My college coach would never let me throw the slider because I had a good curveball, and he would always say, ‘If you’re not great with it, it has the potential to come together and become one pitch.'” But, let’s say you look at Gray’s 88-plus mph breaking balls, and compare them to the breaking balls that are under 85 mph. You actually get fairly distinct pitches. Among other double-breaking-ball pitchers, he would rank fourth in distinctness, right behind Jake Arrieta.
| Velocity | Horizontal | Vertical | |
|---|---|---|---|
| Hard Slider | 90.2 | 3.2 | 4.0 |
| Curveball | 81.8 | 8.8 | -4.3 |
But that’s pretending Gray has two breaking balls when, in fact, he says he has three or four. So when he spends a year having (admittedly) lost command of his breaking ball, you have to wonder if this approach leads to more ebb and flow than your average starting pitcher.
Maybe the craziest thing — which is saying something, since we may have just uncovered four breaking balls for a pitcher who seemingly just throws a curveball — is that there isn’t necessarily a game plan for his fastballs and breaking balls. “All depends on the game,” the righty said. “I will predominately pitch with my two-seam or I’ll predominantly pitch with my four-seam. Flip a coin on the game. I don’t care about movement as much as I care about which one I can throw strikes with. The other day I was throwing my four-seam wherever I wanted to do, so I just threw it.”
He mentioned something fascinating about his pitching mix. “No one every really knows what I’m throwing because me and the catcher just kind of know, in certain counts, or talking in the dugout,” he pointed out. “Guys a lot of times aren’t sure what I’m pitching.” He’s hard to scout because he can make these fine adjustments on the mound.
Is this something we can see in other pitchers? I think of Lance Lynn’s many fastballs or that time Jaime Garcia told me he makes minute changes to his fastball on the fly. Maybe this is a way to identify people who can beat their metrics and get soft contact based on fastball manipulation. “That’s what I like about throwing fastballs when they are looking for it, but they don’t know what it’s going to do,” said Gray, appropriately.
Unfortunately, there’s no strong relationship between the variance in speed or movement on the fastball and outcomes like ERA, FIP, ERA minus FIP, soft percentage, or exit velocity. Though there are some statistically significant relationships that have the hint of a negative relationship between the two — the possibility, that is, that varying fastballs leads to weaker contact — none of the r-squared relationships rise over the number one. In other words, the standard deviation of a pitchers’ fastball movement or velocity explains less than 1% of his exit velocity.
In any case, it’s true that Gray (a) is in the top 10% when it comes to varying the horizontal movement on his fastballs since 2014 and (b) he probably has four breaking balls. So when you say that he’s just a fastball/breaking ball guy, you’re selling him short. He’s really a four-seam, two-seam, cut fastball, slider, power curve, curve, change guy.
Gray had a tough year last year due to the failings of his body. “When I’m not healthy I can’t do what I want to do with the baseball,” he said. Now that he’s healthy again, we get to see him chop it up. He might throw a 94 mph slider, a 90 mph changeup, an 85 mph power curve, or a 80 mph regular curve. If it’s hard for us to tell what’s going on exactly — “I don’t know what it looks like in the numbers, but I know what it looks like in person,” he said — imagine stepping into the box.
With a phone full of pictures of pitchers' fingers, strange beers, and his two toddler sons, Eno Sarris can be found at the ballpark or a brewery most days. Read him here, writing about the A's or Giants at The Athletic, or about beer at October. Follow him on Twitter @enosarris if you can handle the sandwiches and inanity.
All young pitchers are a mystery. They are also the most overvalued commodity in MLB. The World Series is won with your lineup, not your pitchers. Clubs are their lineup. You get the pitching needed to support your lineup.
When the lineup is dead, that team is dead. More pitching is never the solution.
If a team can hit then the GM/owner needs to get that team into the postseason. If the team can’t hit, the lineup is lethargic, getting that team into the playoffs is pointless other than conning the fan base.
what kind of meme is this
How…did you get….here
*softly*
But like, isn’t that kind of right? Obviously you need pitching (Twins fan, I know what having no pitching is, dead last in xFIP) But I think we can all agree relievers and bullpens as a whole are pretty freaking volatile. And given the choice between a great rotation and a great set of position players, that’s an easy choice to me
Whatever trash man, the G-men has three titles because of their pitching. You need to check that mess at the door, loser.
“Gray had a tough year last year due to the failings of his body.”
Any thoughts on touching on Sonny Gray’s pitching mechanics, which is what is causing his body to fail?
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/pitchingmechanics101/Analyses/SonnyGrayPitchingMechanics.html
And before you say the Inverted W has been debunked…
http://clients.chrisoleary.com/Pitching/New-Updated/Truth-About-the-Inverted-W
This is the truth. Gray is a mechanical mess and you are all denying it.
What’s the story with Gray’s LOB% It’s brutal.
Oakland’s defense is historically bad.
This makes my head spin in the cool way. Makes me want to watch more of his starts
“Maybe that’s why we haven’t yet had a good talk, despite calling the same clubhouse home half the time…But there’s another reason he’s found it difficult to talk the way pitchers often talk to me…”
you ask a question they answer it. pretty simple.
Have you read my other pieces with pitchers? There’s very often a ‘I changed my grip and started throwing this pitch more and that’s why I’ve been better’ thread. That doesn’t really work for Gray, since he’s doing that start to start. Also, no, there aren’t a lot of people asking the questions I ask.
“Also, no, there aren’t a lot of people asking the questions I ask.”
you’re incredibly self-absorbed, this is hilarious.
I’m less interested in WHO is writing the piece than WHICH MLB player it is about and that is the ultimate reason I even spend my time reading it.
Ah yes, yes I am! It’s a fault I share with many writers since we’re so arrogant to think that people will read our thoughts.
And I’m well aware that this is about Sonny Gray! I wrote many more words about him than me. But I also tried to make it about pitching, because I find that more interesting than just the player himself without context. There I go being self absorbed again.
“But I also tried to make it about pitching, because I find that more interesting than just the player himself without context.”
I don’t know how you can read so much into one person’s sentence and make long stretching assumptions but ok. your wife must love you.
You said you decide to read based on the player in the piece? I was reacting to that.
Anyway, this has been unpleasant so I’ll move on. I try to take feedback from my readers and I see that you thought that was navel gazing in my lede. Point taken, and I’ll watch for that! I included the tidbit because he’s refused to talk to me about his slider in the past, and now that I’ve talked to him I know why. Maybe it wasn’t the best way to jump into the story.
Ignore the ignorant douchebag, you’re awesome Eno.
He’s an A’s apologist, that’s why. He must live near that third world country of a city, Oakland.
douchiest douche that ever douched
I don’t know what Oakland ever did to you, but I live here and it’s a remarkably awesome place. Maybe you should come visit sometime.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/03/15/happiest-places-live-report-wallethub/99201726/
This is fascinating stuff, Eno. Great work.
Thanks! I have to think that varying speeds and movement on the fastball is worth poking some more.
The pitch to pitch adjustments and the definitions or labels of what to call a pitch is also intriguing.
I remember a Vogt interview a few years back where he said that he never actually knew how Grays 2 seamer was going to move. This seems right in that wheelhouse.
I don’t know about that “white” color choice, man. When trying to eyeball how heavy the density is here versus over there…
Could you run a PCA on the data? It looks like it would have a dominant first component, pointing along this diagonal and including the velocity. Then histogram on that axis and see if it shows two humps or three or one broad one.
Man, you’re right. I usually like blue/orange because of colorblindness but it always has that white in the middle. I don’t know what a PCA is! The data is available if you follow the link to tableau, though.
He may mean a principle component analysis? Statistical jargon… Just a shot in the dark. Amazing article. I already had the under tagged for his start tonight, I may have to throw a dollar or two on the ‘dog now.
That’s correct he means principal component analysis. It’s a data-reduction technique that is sometimes used instead of exploratory factor analysis. The big problem I have with PCA (and other exploratory techniques) is that I don’t know how it’s getting there most of the time. So I’ll leave Jetsy to answer what one hump would tell us (my guess is that there’s one dominant pitch?)
I was thinking of using m-cluster analysis, but first I have to get better at R haha. With m-cluster I could ask the data: how many pitches are here at all?
I don’t know anything about m-cluster analysis but I don’t think that it makes sense to think of the pitches as “clusters”. Instead, what Gray says he is doing is varying the grips, pressure, etc in the way you would change variables in a regression analysis. You would expect to see a lot of “in-between” pitches in Gray’s repertoire as opposed to other pitchers, where the pitches are more distinctive.
One broad “rectangular” kind of shape would say to me that it’s a smooth continuum of pitches that he’s dialing from cutter to slutter to slider to slurve to curve. Or if it’s got bumps it says he’s effectively got somewhat distinct pitches going on.
The PCA is not doing anything fancy here, truly. Taking the first component, basically that means we’ll fit a line to that diagonal band (except include the velocity dimension). Then we can map each point onto that line, just to make a one-dimensional display that’s easy to read.
Let me take crack at it…
Gray sounds like a pitching savant. I can’t imagine changing things on the fly like that when you’re trying like hell to repeat your mechanics.
That’s exactly a word I used. That’s why I mentioned not having talked before, because in some ways he found it hard to express what he does on the mound. Not having a set plan for the fastballs is amazing. When other pitchers talk about ‘different arm, different day,’ they might go to the slider more than the curveball or something, not usually pick one of their three fastballs and switch it up completely. Anecdotal, of course.
Maybe it’s just because they’re both smaller guys, and seem to throw the kitchen sink, but Gray reminds me a lot of Marcus Stroman. The amount of different breaks he seems to get in an outing, I wonder how much he’s manipulating pitches in the fly.
Very cool article, BTW. Love hearing players talk about their craft.
What are your thoughts on Jacob Faria’s seriously funky change up ‘thingy’? The one he threw to strike out Justin Smoak that started out over the plate and ended up near 3rd base. Crazy!
Sounds a lot like Trevor Bauer. Maybe his problem is the same, he’s thinking too much about it.
fantastic read…articles like this can’t be beat
Living is a gamble, baby
Loving’s much the same
Wherever I have played
Whenever I’ve thrown them dice
Wherever I have played
The blues have run the game
i like sonny…$%#^ what ya heard
You know what else is a mystery? What was going through Jared Hughes mind when he had his player photo taken?
https://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/9073/
“none of the r-squared relationships rise over the number one. In other words, the standard deviation of a pitchers’ fastball movement or velocity explains less than 1% of his exit velocity.”
Are you sure this is correct?
I ran correlations between the standard deviation of a pitchers fastball x movement, y movement, and velo against all sorts of outcomes. I might have seen a 1.3 r squared at some point that didn’t move the needle enough for me to report actual findings.
Oh my F’ing god, get off his n-bag! Sonny Gray has been terrible since he has been back, look at that ERA and WHIP. The one thing this article does is articulate why he sucks, and that’s because he changes stuff on the fly because he is either clueless or trying not to suck. I as in Oakland for the Dubs parade yesterday (thank god I survived) then decided to head to the dump the A’s play at; Gray pitched and looked horrid. I have heard rumors the G-men are gonna make run at Gray but I hope they don’t give up their top prospect for him.
Yeah the giants are going to make a run at Gray so maybe they can run down the Padres. What an asinine “rumor” you just made up