Steve Clevenger and the Precedent for Insensitive Comments

Seattle Mariners’ backup catcher Steve Clevenger is not particularly sympathetic to the Black Lives Matter movement. Rather than keep his feelings on the matter to himself, however, he decided to share them with the world on Thursday afternoon in the following tweets:

croppedclevenger-png38b91c2f0009027

Not surprisingly, the public response to Clevenger’s comments was swift and unforgiving. Within hours, the Mariners released an official statement distancing the team from the remarks. And although Clevenger later apologized for the tweets, the Mariners nevertheless announced on Friday that the team was suspending him without pay for the remainder of the season.

On the one hand, the impact of the suspension on Clevenger will be relatively modest, as he was already on the 60-day disabled list with a broken hand, and thus was unlikely to play again for the Mariners this season. On the other hand, however, by being suspended without pay, Clevenger will forfeit the roughly $32,000 he would have earned over the season’s final 10 games.

It does not appear as though Clevenger will challenge his punishment, according to a report by Maury Brown. If Clevenger were to change his mind and file an appeal, however, then it is possible that he could get his suspension reduced by an arbitrator. Specifically, although Major League Baseball and its teams generally have the legal right to punish players in this manner, Clevenger could argue that a suspension of this length is at odds with those handed down in similar, prior cases.

As an initial matter, while Clevenger — like all Americans — has a right to freedom of speech under the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, that protection does not prevent the Mariners from punishing him for speaking his mind. Because the First Amendment only restricts the government from penalizing citizens for their speech, private businesses like the Mariners are generally free to regulate their employees’ speech, especially when that offensive speech occurs in a public manner (like Clevenger’s).

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Instead, Clevenger’s only rights in this area are those granted to him under MLB’s collective bargaining agreement. In particular, under Article XII of the CBA, MLB or its teams have the right to punish players for “just cause” should they engage in conduct that is detrimental to the league or franchise. As I’ve previously discussed, this “just cause” standard requires that MLB or the team be able to establish that the punishment meted out in a particular case fits the offense, especially in light of the prior penalties issued for similar conduct.

In this case, given the offensiveness of Clevenger’s remarks, MLB and the Mariners can persuasively argue that allowing the comments to go unpunished would harm the standing of their business and sport in the eyes of the public. Nevertheless, if Clevenger were to file a grievance challenging his suspension under the CBA, the Mariners would have to convince an arbitrator that 10 games without pay was warranted in light of prior punishments handed down in cases where players made similarly racially insensitive public statements.

Along these lines, perhaps the most important precedent in a Clevenger appeal would be that of the case of John Rocker. In 2000, MLB suspended the former Atlanta Braves reliever for his comments in a controversial interview with Sports Illustrated in which Rocker made a series of highly offensive racist and homophobic remarks. Although MLB initially suspended Rocker 28 games for the comments, an arbitrator ultimately reduced the suspension to just 14 games on appeal.

In addition to the Rocker precedent, Clevenger could also point to two other incidents, both from 2012, involving Delmon Young and Yunel Escobar, respectively. Specifically, Young was suspended for seven games that year following his arrest in New York City on a hate-crime harassment charge, after he was accused of yelling anti-Semitic epithets during a fight outside his hotel. Meanwhile, Escobar was suspended for three games that same season for displaying a homophobic slur written in Spanish on his eye black.

If Clevenger were to appeal his punishment, he could argue that the Mariners did not have just cause to suspend him for 10 days in light of the duration of these prior suspensions. An arbitrator would then have to compare Clevenger’s statements to the conduct of Rocker, Young, and Escobar to determine whether Clevenger’s punishment fit his offense.

For instance, Clevenger could argue that even though his suggestion that those involved in the protests in Charlotte should be “locked behind bars like animals” was certainly offensive, his comments did not warrant a suspension of 10 games when Rocker received only four games more than that despite making more extensive, and arguably more repugnant, remarks to Sports Illustrated.

Specifically, in response to a question about whether he’d ever considering playing for the New York Yankees or New York Mets, Rocker stated:

I would retire first. It’s the most hectic, nerve-racking city. Imagine having to take the [Number] 7 train to the ballpark, looking like you’re [riding through] Beirut next to some kid with purple hair next to some queer with AIDS right next to some dude who just got out of jail for the fourth time right next to some 20-year-old mom with four kids. It’s depressing.

The biggest thing I don’t like about New York are the foreigners. You can walk an entire block in Times Square and not hear anybody speaking English. Asians and Koreans and Vietnamese and Indians and Russians and Spanish people and everything up there. How the hell did they get in this country?

Rocker then went on to mock the driving abilities of Asian women in the interview, before also referring to an overweight black teammate as a “fat monkey.”

Similarly, Clevenger could also assert that his 10-game suspension was unwarranted in light of the significantly shorter punishments handed down to Young and Escobar for engaging in what was, arguably, roughly equivalent conduct. In the case of Escobar in particular, Clevenger could contend that the fact that Escobar only received a three-game suspension for wearing the Spanish phrase “tu eres maricon”– or “you are a faggot” — on the actual field of play suggests that 10 games is too long a punishment for Clevenger, especially since his offensive conduct occurred off of the playing field.

In light of the Rocker, Young, and Escobar punishments, it is certainly possible that an arbitrator could conclude that the Mariners went too far in suspending Clevenger for 10 games for his offensive comments. In that case, the Mariners would then owe Clevenger roughly $3,200 per game in back pay for each game his suspension was reduced. On the other hand, it’s also possible that the arbitrator would rule that a 10-game suspension for Clevenger was more than reasonable given both the offensiveness of his comments as well as the current social climate.

Even if Clevenger could potentially get his suspension reduced by a few games on appeal, though, he may nevertheless reasonably conclude that such an undertaking isn’t worth the effort considering both the negative publicity the event has already generated, as well as the potential adverse impact his comments may have already had for the future of his career. In that light, his apparent decision not to challenge the punishment is more than understandable.





Nathaniel Grow is an Associate Professor of Business Law and Ethics and the Yormark Family Director of the Sports Industry Workshop at Indiana University's Kelley School of Business. He is the author of Baseball on Trial: The Origin of Baseball's Antitrust Exemption, as well as a number of sports-related law review articles. You can follow him on Twitter @NathanielGrow. The views expressed are solely those of the author and do not express the views or opinions of Indiana University.

93 Comments
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London Yank
9 years ago

Given the current political climate, Clevenger’s comments don’t actually seem that far out of normalised commentary. …sadly.

Hurtlocker
9 years ago
Reply to  London Yank

You are correct, the line has been crossed again and again and the precedent sucks.

Sam Samson
9 years ago
Reply to  London Yank

They do seem sadly like things a slightly (only slightly) less articulate Donald Trump might say.

RonnieDobbs
9 years ago

I wonder why athletes don’t claim that their account were hacked. Probably a good reason why disciplining people over social media is shaky at best.

KCDaveInLA
9 years ago
Reply to  RonnieDobbs

Not only does this show Clevenger’s insensitivity (an issue for still a lot of people), but it also shows that he is not very bright. Making comments like that in today’s political climate is a guaranteed way to lose your job or status.

Sn0wman
9 years ago
Reply to  RonnieDobbs

Probably because no one ever believes that tale. I never saw a single person who actually believed Chip Caray was hacked for one tweet that said “…in November.”

nickthekid87Member since 2020
9 years ago
Reply to  RonnieDobbs

It would be hard for Steve Clevenger to convince anyone that his Twitter was hacked. Why would anyone hack the account of Steve f**king Clevenger?

RonnieDobbs
9 years ago
Reply to  nickthekid87

Funny post, but scary when you are talking about a man’s right to earn a living.

He has a lot to gain by trying to pass it off as someone else. He is basically out of baseball now. I don’t think that anyone could prove that it wasn’t hacked. The allegations sure wouldn’t hold up in a court of law… who needs constitutional rights?

Mike NMN
9 years ago

Good analysis from the legal perspective. I suppose Clevenger could appeal, and maybe get the penalty down a bit–I wonder, given his comparatively low salary, and his need for a job, whether it’s worth the cost to make the attempt. Privately, Clevenger is entitled to his opinions. But players are in the public eye–when they mouth off, they could impact the business prospects of their employer. This has nothing to do with being PC, and everything to do with packaging a product to a customer base that not only patronizes your shop, but often gives taxpayer subsidies to it. The team/league had to do something.

Fernando
9 years ago
Reply to  Mike NMN

I respectfully disagree. While you’re right that businesses have to weigh out the impact of an employee’s words, I think it’s incorrect to suggest that the conclusions they come to are not influenced by political correctness. Just take a look at the NFL and the controversy surrounding Colin Kaepernick. (Please note that I’m not trying to compare Kaepernick and Clevenger in terms of one of them being right and the other wrong, but rather as a way of examining the fallout of two similarly-themed sports controversies.)

The NFL is suffering from a notable ratings drop through the first few games of the season, and many have attributed this to backlash against Kaepernick’s stance and the NFL’s handling of it. If this explanation is true, and I think it’s at least plausible, then the league is being hit with the kind of real world impact that you rightly said businesses must consider. And yet, despite losing money, there are no suspensions being handed out to Kaepernick. I have to wonder why this is. While I personally wouldn’t advocate for him being punished by the NFL, it’s interesting to see the parallel between his case and Clevenger’s as well as the very different fallouts.

Now perhaps someone would respond that Clevenver’s situation was fundamentally worse and thus he was more deserving of punishment. While that could be true, it doesn’t explain the fact that in both cases you still have a large portion of people who have been offended and the risk for losing money in each case and yet only one suspension. I think the reality is that businesses worrying about their employees’ words is synonymous with political correctness. Neither the NFL nor MLB really care about the rightness or wrongness of either of these men’s stances, they just care about their own bottom lines. I think in both situations they’re simply sticking their fingers in the air to see which way the wind is blowing and then acting accordingly. Truthfully, whether or not we agree with the Mariners here will probably come down to our own political leanings, just proving that these things are always political.

jpgMember since 2020
9 years ago
Reply to  Fernando

“…it’s interesting to see the parallel between his case and Clevenger’s as well as the very different fallouts.”

There is no parallel. These situations couldn’t be anymore different even if the BLM movement and the national anthem protests serve as a common denominator. Kaepernick not standing for the national anthem is a form of silent or passive protest. When asked to explain the reasoning for actions, Kaepernick has been critical of the government and law enforcement but he hasn’t said anything that’s even remotely as vile as what Clevenger said. The NFL can’t/won’t punish Kaepernick even if they wanted to because A) they’d never win the ensuing court battle and B) it would be a P.R nightmare for the league. he hate spewing that Clevenger did, on the other hand, is something that would be a terminable offense in the eyes of every major corporation.

Fernando
9 years ago
Reply to  jpg

As I said, I’m not trying to compare them in terms of one being right and the other wrong; my commemts weren’t meant to evaluate the appropriateness of either man’s actions. So when I say parallel all I mean is that we have two athletes making public stances/remarks about the same general subject and doing so in the same time timeframe (and thus the same political climate). I think it’s valid to compare on those grounds as well as in examining the public reactions to them.

Johnston
9 years ago
Reply to  Fernando

Anything PC is acceptable, but anything non-PC is not acceptable and will get the player hammered.

Mike NMN
9 years ago
Reply to  Johnston

Just to understand you better, your feeling is that Clevenger could say literally anything, and not merit this?

bookbookMember since 2019
9 years ago
Reply to  Johnston

As you say, Many things addressing an actual issue are acceptable. Anything where you are being rude and an asshole is not acceptable. You nailed it.

BipMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  Johnston

How is not standing for the anthem and saying that there are major problems in police departments “PC”? Imagine Hilary Clinton not acknowledging the flag because of problems with policing. If a politician couldn’t do it without facing major backlash, that is pretty much the definition of non-PC.

If the NFL is losing ratings because of Kaepernick’s expression, that also clearly makes it very non-PC.

You are conflating PC with “liberal”. It is very clever of you to do that, but it is nonsense and wrong. Conservatives get offended and upset and censorious by harmless speech too.

jpgMember since 2020
9 years ago
Reply to  Fernando

“…And yet, despite losing money, there are no suspensions being handed out to Kaepernick. I have to wonder why this is.”

That’s more or less what I was addressing. Like I said, there’s an overlap (both guys are addressing the same topic) but there really isn’t a parallel because what the two men have done couldn’t be any different. I don’t see how the league or team could actually justify a punishment for Kaepernick. The 49ers stink and he’s their backup QB making starter money. If they really felt a punishment was warranted they could have cut him, which would have been easily masked as a football decision.

Fernando
9 years ago
Reply to  jpg

I agree they couldn’t justify a punishment for Kaepernick, which is why I said I wouldn’t want to see them pursue such a course. My point, though, was that the NFL arrived at this conclusion by way of trying to please the highest number of people possible, thus keeping the highest percentage of money in their own pockets – just like the Mariners are doing. So that’s the parallel I was trying to draw – not a parallel between the actions of two men, but a parallel between two organizations that ultimately care about their bottom lines.

I wasn’t trying to praise nor condemn anyone involved (Kaepernick, Clevenger, the NFL, or the Mariners). I was just suggesting that I don’t see a difference between a business trying to please people to keep them coming and being politically correct. They are both about not offending people, so I essentially see them as two different ways of saying the same thing.

Sam Samson
9 years ago
Reply to  Fernando

Yeah and I wonder why athletes who say supportive things about gay people aren’t punished when Rocker was for saying homophobic things. The parallel between two sports people making public stances/remarks about the same general subject is very clear.

Fernando
9 years ago
Reply to  Sam Samson

I’m not sure who you’re responding to, but if it’s me then I think you’re seeing a problem that isn’t really there.

Psychic... Powerless...
9 years ago
Reply to  Sam Samson

“Yeah and I wonder why athletes who say supportive things about gay people aren’t punished…”

Seriously?

Momus
9 years ago
Reply to  Sam Samson

@Sam Samson — Yes… it’s weird that people who say positive supportive things generally don’t get punished while people who spew hate filled venom sometimes are. It’s like how if you walk up to a random guy in a bar and say “I like that shirt man” you get a “oh, thanks”, but if you say “nice fucking shirt gaywad” you might get punched in the face.

…it’s a mystery.

ChippersJonesing
9 years ago
Reply to  jpg

A more reasonable comparison would’ve been Kaepernick’s pig socks.

wildcard09
9 years ago
Reply to  jpg

Sorry but disrespecting our country, anthem, and all the men and women who died for our freedom is more vile than any words known to man. It’s despicable that these athletes, supposed to be role models for our youth, are allowed to get away with this disrespect.

Clevenger’s wrong as well, but still better than saying “fuck you” to our country and troops. If they’re so miserable they can go live somewhere else.

jdbolickMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  jpg

Kaepernick has been critical of the government and law enforcement but he hasn’t said anything that’s even remotely as vile as what Clevenger said.

I vehemently disagree. Kaepernick wearing “pigs” socks is far, far worse than what Clevenger did, while I think most familiar with the Cuban government would say that Colin wearing a shirt praising Castro was also more offensive than Clevenger’s tweets.

LHPSU
9 years ago
Reply to  Fernando

Er, not in the same ballpark. If Kapernick was calling for police officers to be lynched, that would be comparable to Clevenger’s tweet.

jpgMember since 2020
9 years ago
Reply to  LHPSU

This

jdbolickMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  LHPSU

Good lord, Clevenger isn’t calling for anyone to be lynched either. You escalated his actual comments by a factor of ten. Meanwhile you don’t seem to be aware that Kaepernick wore socks with pigs in police uniforms. Calling people “animals” isn’t a good idea, although technically we all are, but I understand his anger. I had similar thoughts given that I live near Charlotte and have been outraged by the destruction and multiple assaults on innocent white bystanders, but you should never tweet or post until you’ve calmed down, and frankly an athlete probably shouldn’t even run his own Twitter page to avoid incidents like this. Hire an assistant or social media representative that you send your thoughts to, then they decide if they’re acceptable for publishing.

tung_twista
9 years ago
Reply to  Fernando

I understand what you are trying to say and I bet that the NFL
as a profit driven organization would rather Kaepernick not kneel.
However, in terms of pure profit maximization, IF NFL were to punish
or forbid Kaepernick from kneeling, I am pretty sure the consequences
would be even more severe.

So both the MLB and NFL are doing what they should be doing.
Profit maximization.

And really, political correctness doesn’t have much to do with anything here.
What Kaepernick is doing is neither politically correct nor politically incorrect.
What Clevinger did is not only politically incorrect, but just incorrect period.

Fernando
9 years ago
Reply to  tung_twista

I completely agree with your first paragraph about “profit maximization”. My whole whole point, though, was that in order for sports leagues to accomplish that they must inherently engage in political correctness. I think we all agree that the NFL and MLB are trying to salvage every dollar possible. So in order for them to get the most dollars in their pockets they have to ask the question, “What action on our part as a league will offend the most number of people and thus deprive us of their money?” Conversely, they then ask, “What action on our part will result in the most number of people being satisfied with us and thus allow those people to continue giving us their money?”

Those questions by their very nature demand they wade into the waters of political correctness. The fact that the majority of people agree with each decision does change the fact that both leagues still used political considerations to get to them. Asking, “How can I please the highest number of people possible” is, by it’s very nature, political.

Sam Samson
9 years ago
Reply to  Fernando

What you would call “political correctness” I think I would call “stopping people acting like douchenozzles”.

Mike NMN
9 years ago
Reply to  Fernando

I understand your point but see a distinction.
Kaepernick’s statement is a purely symbolic and political one–it does not single out any person or group. I wouldn’t have done it, I don’t agree with it, but it’s in a category of protected speech. I don’t see it as much different than a sports figure campaigning for a candidate on either side of the aisle.
Clevenger’s is qualitatively different. His comment about the President is political (and I think protected) but the rest are insults about groups of people.

Fernando
9 years ago
Reply to  Mike NMN

Sure, I wasn’t trying to compare the two men, just what came after. As I said above, all I was trying to say is that I don’t think “maximizing profits” and “political correctness” are mutually exclusive ideas. I think they sort of go hand in hand.

jdbolickMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  Mike NMN

Kaepernick’s statement is a purely symbolic and political one–it does not single out any person or group.

He is absolutely singling out law enforcement and using slurs against them, such as the multiple times when he wore “pigs” socks.

ZonkMember since 2016
9 years ago

.Clevenger is a fringe ML player as it is, but under normal circumstances would certainly get a minor league deal and NRI this offseason at a minimum. If he doesn’t, we’ll know clubs are staying away based on this

KCDaveInLA
9 years ago

I wonder what John Rocker would get for his comments if he made them today…permanent suspension?

bglick4
9 years ago

Meh – he’s ranting against what is largely a hate group. He’s not saying anything untrue, though I can understand why MLB would have a problem with this – they don’t want controversy; even nonsensical politically motivated controversy. Clevenger needs to play by the rules. So long as they also suspend anyone who publicly shows support for this hate group, I’m ok with it.

killerbees
9 years ago
Reply to  bglick4

BLM isn’t a hate group. And the first tweet posted has nothing to do with BLM. It’s just plain racist.

TKDCMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  killerbees

They are a hate group in that they hate that the police can target, harass, beat, and kill black people and likely face no real consequences in a rigged justice system and a great deal of unaffected Americans seem to not care at all.

jdbolickMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Obviously Black Lives Matter is not a hate group, but I do believe that it is increasing racial division and strife such that they are actively impeding the racial progress they demand. There have been two individuals killed by law enforcement in Charlotte over the last few months. One was an unarmed, deaf white man who was shot exiting his vehicle after leading a state trooper on a high speed chase. One was a convicted felon with multiple arrests for assault including two with a deadly weapon, who had a gun in his hand and refused to put it down when commanded by police. Absent additional context, it doesn’t make any sense why people would be more angry about the latter than the former.

So let’s introduce additional context. There is a claim that law enforcement abuses black citizens far beyond how they treat any other racial group. A recent Harvard study did find that employment of non-lethal force by law enforcement in the United States does demonstrate racial prejudice towards blacks and Hispanics, but it also found that use of lethal force showed no racial prejudice at all. It is true that the percentages of armed and unarmed black men killed by law enforcement is higher than their share of the population, yet in actuality it closely mirrors the percentage of officers shot and killed by black men. Prejudice doesn’t always mean hate, it could also mean that officers perceive black men as more of a threat. Those who point to the population percentages are implying that every U.S. citizen has the same likelihood of interacting with law enforcement, which we all know isn’t true. The reality is that crime rates are significantly higher for black offenders than any other racial group, so the black population will have a correspondingly rate of encounters with law enforcement. It’s a complicated situation with many factors at play.

I wholeheartedly support efforts to reduce the use of lethal force by law enforcement and have for years, but I do not support Black Lives Matter because I don’t believe that it’s helpful or productive to single out one race of victims for sympathy. Unnecessary and/or excessive use of force is something that has affected all racial groups in the United States, and in my view we would have more success in addressing it if we were united over the need for changes in hiring and training methods for law enforcement rather than focusing on the race of some victims. Reactions like the one in Charlotte turn us against each other. I live near there, and I had frustrations in my head very similar to Clevenger’s when I saw multiple videos of white people being attacked and robbed, property burned, and stores looted. BLM is not responsible for those actions, but I do believe that its fiery rhetoric has heightened tensions in the same way that Trump’s rhetoric has increased the risk of violence from his supporters. The climate we’re living in right now is toxic, with racial lines being drawn on each side.

London Yank
9 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

Your link does not support your claim. You claim that crime rates are higher, but your evidence shows arrest rates are higher. If African Americans are disproportionately targeted by police, then their arrest rates will be higher even if they commit crimes at the same rate or even at a lower rate than other groups. This scenario is partially what is being protested.

jdbolickMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  London Yank

If African Americans are disproportionately targeted by police, then their arrest rates will be higher even if they commit crimes at the same rate or even at a lower rate than other groups.

Let’s say for the sake of argument that in reality crime rates are equal among rates and that there are no false arrests of white perpetrators. In order to reach the arrest percentage listed for “Murder and non-negligent manslaughter,” that means that 82.74% of the arrests made of black perpetrators would have to be false arrests. 82.74%. You’re telling me that four-fifths of the time that a black citizen is arrested for “Murder and non-negligent manslaughter” that the charges were false? Clearly that does not make any sense whatsoever. 5% or maybe 10% would be plausible, but not 82.74%. I understand that you don’t want to believe the numbers and are looking for a way to avoid acknowledging the statistical reality, but it is what it is.

Fernando
9 years ago
Reply to  killerbees

Perhaps I am an absolute moron, but could you (or someone who agrees his tweet was clearly racist) please explain why you see it as racist? Because if I’m understanding you correctly you aren’t merely saying it *could* be racist or that it *could* be misinterpreted as hate, but that it is 100% percent without a doubt racist, and I guess I’m just not reading it that way. So I’m gonna pull a Michael Scott here – can someone explain this to me like I’m five?

killerbees
9 years ago
Reply to  Fernando

‘Thug’: http://gawker.com/just-call-them-niggers-exasperated-cnn-guest-tells-e-1700812536

For me, it demonstrates a complete lack of empathy and victim blaming for a group of people who have been disenfranchised by their government and police force. People criticizing BLM tend to completely ignore any context whatsoever around these protests. BLM is one of the major reasons body cams started being used by our police force. If nothing else, that kind of transparency should be something any citizen would want.

The second tweet, about people using their constitutional rights to protest, calls for them to be jailed. And calls them animals. I mean, really, what would you call it? Twitter isn’t known to be a good avenue for discourse, but what exactly do either of the tweets quoted hope to accomplish?

Fernando
9 years ago
Reply to  killerbees

Thanks for the response. As a follow up, do you think he was calling for all the protesters to be locked up, or specifically those who were looting and rioting? I mean, he did say “everyone involved”, so perhaps he did mean all the protesters, but I guess I read that as referring back to the first tweet about those who were allegedly “beating whites”.

killerbees
9 years ago
Reply to  Fernando

I live in Charlotte. Last time I checked, besides the person that unfortunately was shot in killed last Wednesday, there were arrest warrants outstanding for four people in regards to the looting and violence. Two of the four were black.

Fernando
9 years ago
Reply to  killerbees

Okay. So if I am understanding you correctly, it seems like you’re saying that since an equal number of those with warrants attached to them are white then Clevenger was being racist. However, do you think he sent his tweets with this knowledge in mind? Or do you think he was reacting to the reports he’s heard, that are tending to present this as a “black” protest? Like I asked another person below, do you think his intent was to be racist? Or, like some have suggested, would you say intent doesn’t matter?

vivalajeter
9 years ago
Reply to  killerbees

I’m in no way trying to justify what he said in the tweets, but I also think that killerbees is downplaying what Clevenger was referring to. You said his tweet was “about people using their constitutional rights to protest”. He clearly wasn’t referring to peaceful protests.

Is it really someone’s constitutional right to a) set fires in the middle of a highway, and jump into trucks to steal their contents, b) break into Walmart to steal electronics, break into the Hornets team store to steal merchandise, etc, c) beat up cops, and try to throw an unconscious reporter into a fire, and d) shoot and kill a fellow protestor?

When the National Guard gets called in and they set a curfew, that typically only happens when people go beyond their constitutional right to protest.

As for the word ‘animals’, while that could be considered racist, I don’t think it’s an automatic. If you only saw clips on the news, most rioters look like animals, regardless of color. 20-something years ago people rioted at a Guns N Roses and Metallica concert. The crowd was mainly white males, and they looked like animals.

killerbees
9 years ago
Reply to  vivalajeter

I mean he said ALL. I’m not ignoring the violence and looting and I certainly don’t condone it. But there’s absolutely no evidence that such violence was A. condoned by BLM and B. committed by BLM.

raws
9 years ago
Reply to  Fernando

I could approach this a few ways, Fernando, but will highlight only the concept of blacks caged like animals is an expression of racism not just rhetorically but in terms of sentencing and prosecution. You might also lookup thug as proxy for nigger. While there are other points to be contended, you could start here.

Fernando
9 years ago
Reply to  raws

Thanks for the response. I can see your point about how those things might have historical connotations, so I guess my question would be do you think that’s how he meant it or was he referring to the perceived behavior of those involved? So when he says “thug”, do you think he meant it as a veiled way of calling a black man the n-word, or do you think he genuinely saw this guy as a criminal and was describing him that way? Or when he says “animals”, do you think he is trying to make a connection to the historical ideaof blacks being thought of as sub-human, or is he trying to describe what he perceives as wild, unruly behavior?

I’m genuinely curious how you read this.

raws
9 years ago
Reply to  Fernando

I don’t know the dude”s intention. My understanding of the lexicon forms the opinion that Clevenger’s usage reflects an unsympathetic view, which corresponds not only to prejudice but also racism because of historical formations. It’s a maxim to assume ignorance rather than malice. I don’t doubt his statement could reflect a more nuanced understanding than what is expressed, although the speaker appears dismissive of opposition. I don’t blame or judge his views as I say below. Political correctness aping enlightened views is not a solution.

Skoolboy Jim
9 years ago
Reply to  raws

Said with dripping condescension!

raws
9 years ago
Reply to  Skoolboy Jim

Skoolboy! My response included: “I don’t know”… “I don’t doubt” that I could have misread it…and that “I don’t blame” the view. I was trying to draw attention to competency and connotation because interpretation of language is all Clevenger is losing 32 Gs for. Fernando asked my opinion and to explain my read.

TKDCMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  Fernando

Referring to black people as “animals” is undoubtedly racist. The other tweet is hard to argue that it isn’t racist, but regardless, making light of a person being shot dead is a ridiculous thing to do.

Fernando
9 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Is it always racist, though? I mean, do you think that was his intent or would you say that intent is irrelevant? As for your second point, what do you mean when you say he was making light of a person being shot? Again, I don’t read it that way so I’d be interested to know what makes it sound that way to you.

TKDCMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  Fernando

Said like this, it is always racist. If he were referring to a specific person and that person were, let’s just say, a rapist, then maybe it would not be. That’s not what happened here, and you can’t hide behind intent. I also don’t believe he is so stupid that he did not realize he was characterizing a very wide swath of people as animals and the history of that term.

On the second point, we said “haha that shit cracks me up” followed by some non-sequitur to kneeling during the national anthem (as if the validity of Kaepernick’s action is somehow implicated here). He literally writes “haha” and says that a series of events including a person being shot dead “cracks [him] up.” I don’t know how else that could be read.

Fernando
9 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

1) It seemed to me like he was trying to describe a particular subset of the protesters, namely those who were looting and rioting. So if he only meant to describe those involved in the criminal element of what was going on, would you still say he was being racist?

2)I’m not clear on what you mean regarding intent. From your own personal judgement, do you think he wrote “animals” with the historical slur in mind? You might think he was wrong regardless, but does it change anything if he didn’t intend it that way?

3) I don’t think the “cracks me up line” was meant as a reference to the man who was killed. I took that in reference to violence being done by individual protesters, despite what Clevenger would seem to say was a justified police encounter. But do you think he wrote that line intending to communicate that he was laughing at a man who had just been killed?

realitypolice
9 years ago
Reply to  Fernando

Fernando – just wanted to commend you for asking questions because you honestly wanted to hear what other people (who may likely disagree with your opinion) thought, and not being dismissive or snotty about the answers you were given. That’s a painfully uncommon thing in public “discourse” today.

Skoolboy Jim
9 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Wait, you are assuming a baseball player is intelligent and knows history?

raws
9 years ago
Reply to  Fernando

This also makes me reconsider Clevenger. An intelligent person can look at history, housing, education and criminal justice, then recognize that the problem is embedded into society. How to blame then an individual who doesn’t see that their views by virtue of being aligned with praxis and not theory is racist or ignorant. It’s like the commenter yesterday who only bemoaned JoFer’s death for fantasy gaming – we endorse personalization to endorse sport and then when someone does not recognize the limit, we blame the individual.

LarryDavid
9 years ago
Reply to  killerbees

We get your white guilt. I bet you want dead cops and to overthrow capitalism just like them.

Spitball McPhee
9 years ago
Reply to  bglick4

It’s not a “Hate Group” just because some white people hate it.

DBRunsMember since 2023
9 years ago

It’s too bad the precedent wasn’t applied to Kaepernick. We honor the flag and remember those who served by standing for the anthem. A bit of a double standard if I must say.

Original Greaser Bob
9 years ago
Reply to  DBRuns

Who are “we”?

TKDCMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  DBRuns

No, a comparable situation would be if the Mariners asked Clevenger to attend a Black Lives Matter rally and he declined to participate. If they fined or suspended him for that, then you’d have yourself a double standard.

nickthekid87Member since 2020
9 years ago
Reply to  DBRuns

That’s not why we stand for the National Anthem. It has to do with the country as a whole. I don’t get why so many people think it’s solely about “the troops.” Private citizens are just as American as servicepeople.

Jackie T.
9 years ago
Reply to  DBRuns

If you really love America, perhaps these words mean something to you:

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

Skoolboy Jim
9 years ago
Reply to  Jackie T.

Just let me know when you get the revolution underway Jackie, so I can make sure I get my Canadian immigration process going. My head is doing just fine on my neck at this point.

dave
9 years ago
Reply to  DBRuns

I’m in the military, and he if wants to take a knee as a form of expression, I feel that’s his right. That’s part of what I took the oath for and I don’t feel offended, even if I agree or disagree with him. I don’t think there’s a double standard because there’s consequences when you take it too far.

TKDCMember since 2016
9 years ago

I agree with suspending him, but I do wonder if the suspension would be the same if he were healthy, an important player, and the Mariners were still playing for something? Maybe the foreign language thing made it not as bad in the Blue Jays’ minds, but it seems what Yunel Escobar did was easily worse than this as he put his very offensive remarks right on his own face during an actual game.

John
9 years ago

I’m interested in his apology. I want to know who wrote it. It hits all the buzzwords, but that thing is torturously written.

Paul G.Member since 2016
9 years ago

I liked it better when I could just watch sports without the other stuff. You know, when all I cared about was whether the second baseman could pivot on the double play and what my team’s playoff chances were. You know, not this.

I don’t really care what athletes views are on anything. I don’t go in search of it. For that matter I wouldn’t even know who Clevenger was or his views if the Mariners had not suspended him. If they were trying to suppress his speech, for at least one person they completely failed.

killerbees
9 years ago
Reply to  Paul G.

You clicked on this thread. You may come to fangraphs for stat related discourse, but you actively looked at this page by clicking on the title. Sorry, I just don’t understand complaining about this topic when you made the choice yourself. It is avoidable.

Paul G.Member since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  killerbees

I clicked on this thread because, after having the subject shoved in my face by the Seattle Mariners and sports reporters to my great annoyance, I found the legal underpinning of this action, as so eloquently discussed by Nathaniel Grow, to be of relevant interest. I would much prefer that such articles were not necessary AS I EXPRESSED IN MY VERY COMMENT, but, alas, such is not life.

In addition, I do make a habit of reading Grow’s articles because he is good at writing them, regardless whether I wished he had any reason to write them or not.

It’s really not that hard to understand.

Spitball McPhee
9 years ago
Reply to  Paul G.

Yeah, thinking is hard.

Psychic... Powerless...
9 years ago
Reply to  Paul G.

“…when I could just watch sports without the other stuff.” When was this, exactly? Genuinely curious.

“I don’t really care what athletes views are on anything.” That’s very hard to believe. If you learned your favorite athlete was a KKK supporter, it wouldn’t bother you?

realitypolice
9 years ago
Reply to  Paul G.

Unless you’re 80 years old, I’m not sure what period of time you’re talking about. Because it wasn’t in the 1940s when Ben Chapman and Pee Wee Reese were, quite publicly, on opposite sides of that “other stuff” about race.
It wasn’t in the 50s when Jack Brickhouse set about intentionally bringing Ernie Banks, Billy Williams and journalist Wendell Smith into the living rooms of White Chicago to challenge the city’s racial disparities.
It certainly wasn’t in 1967 when Willie Horton – still in uniform after a double-header – headed out into the middle of riots near his childhood home in Detroit.
It wasn’t in the late 60s and early 70s when Curt Flood brought all that “other stuff” about labor relations into the game and “Bob” Clemente caused shockwaves among the Pittsburgh sports media because he insisted on being called by his given name.
It wasn’t as Hank Aaron chased Babe Ruth’s record in 73-74.
Maybe you mean in the late 70s when the sport chased off Glenn Burke or in the mid-80s when they canned Dave Pallone (while retaining noted umpiring luminaries like Joe West)?
Or you mean back before MLB ruined itself by retiring Jackie Robinson’s number across the sport?

Skoolboy Jim
9 years ago
Reply to  realitypolice

Said with dripping self-righteous indignation.

Oleg
9 years ago

Although I think Clevenger is a moron if he thinks these thoughts, I wonder why the MLPA wouldn’t automatically appeal the suspension. If for no other reason, this would seem to set a new precedent.

Pirates HurdlesMember since 2020
9 years ago
Reply to  Oleg

My thought as well, why would the MLBPA allow 10 games to be the new standard without a fight?

Jetsy Extrano
9 years ago

It was reported that his Twitter account was private (I don’t know exactly how private), but somebody who saw the post took a screenshot. Does this make any difference versus a public posting, in terms of employment law? If it were more private, like racist email to a friend who turned it over to a newspaper, would that matter? Or does level of privacy only affect the odds of it blowing up, not the consequences afterwards?

bjsguess
9 years ago

Here come the predictable down votes. Let’s really see what he said:

“Black people beating whites when a thug got shot holding a gun by a black officer …”

Fact: Whites were specifically targeted by “protestors”. If you haven’t seen the videos I would suggest watching them. They are disturbing. Individuals were targeted solely due to the color of their skin.

Fact: We can argue about the definition of the word. In my book he was a thug. What’s a thug? Let’s see. He was convicted of assault with a deadly weapon, a DUI, illegally carrying a concealed weapon, simple and aggravated assault, assault with the intent to kill, and evading arrest.

Fact: He was shot while holding a gun. The individual who shot him was a Black officer.

2nd Tweet:
Obama and BLM are pathetic … “Everyone involved should be locked behind bars like animals.”

Calling Obama and BLM pathetic is an opinion. One that is shared by millions of individuals. It is not some sort of extreme position held only by the fringe of society.

Fact: We are a nation of laws. When you break the law our legal system demands justice. I’ll read into his quote a bit (since it’s a tweet you don’t get to form lengthy opinions) and assume that he is referring to those engaged in ILLEGAL activities being locked away. That is a completely rationale belief. What is not rationale is folks excusing the looting of electronic stores, massive vandalism, and unprovoked assaults. If you watch the videos of the assaults or vandalism you would be hard pressed to make a distinction between some of the actions and what you might expect a wild animal do to.

You may not like his tone or you may not like the narrative but there is nothing here remotely close to justifying a suspension. I’d wager that for most American’s disrespecting the National Anthem is far more offensive than a person inarticulately recounting the events that unfolded.

Psychic... Powerless...
9 years ago
Reply to  bjsguess

“Calling… BLM pathetic is an opinion. One that is shared by millions of individuals.”

Yes, there are millions of racists in this country.

Psychic... Powerless...
9 years ago

And are there valid critiques to be made of BLM? Absolutely. But what’s “pathetic” is that so many people have an issue with ALL black protest, regardless of who is protesting, what the issue is, and how they conduct themselves.

Skoolboy Jim
9 years ago

Monkey Man, who are the “so many” that take issue with any and all black protest? You just kind of pulled that out of your arse didn’t you?

Johnston
9 years ago

Deleted. There’s no point bringing up the truth here.

ChippersJonesing
9 years ago

Damn, sometimes I forget just how bad that Rocker interview really was. How can a person so well known to the public be that tone-deaf?

Psychic... Powerless...
9 years ago

That’s ultimately an interviewer’s job — get your subject to reveal their true nature.

LarryDavid
9 years ago

Nobody should take these communists seriously. Yes, we need to have more accountability for police. Some of the killings weren’t justified. However, they should lose most people with their radicalism. Chanting for dead cops and basically wanting to overthrow capitalism with their demands down below

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj4ARsxrZh8

BLM chanting for dead cops.

https://policy.m4bl.org

BLM’S CRAZY DEMANDS

Oleg
9 years ago
Reply to  LarryDavid

Communists? LarryDavid, the 1950s called. They want their ignorance back.

Oblarg
9 years ago

Boy, the Mariners lost that trade in more ways than one.

mattswinkey
9 years ago

Would DiPoto have been barred from releasing Clevenger since he’s on the 60 day DL? First year arb eligible, out of options, and quite bad; I was thinking that he’d be non tendered this offseason anyway.