The 2019 NL Cy Young Voter Guide
Over in the American League, there’s a pretty clear top tier of Cy Young contenders in Justin Verlander and Gerrit Cole, followed by a solid group of candidates likely to garner down-ballot support. In the National League, there looks to be a top tier of Max Scherzer and Jacob deGrom followed by a cascading set of secondary candidates, but that first look doesn’t quite tell the entire story.
To provide some idea of the statistical disparities voters must contend with when making their decision, I looked at our FIP-based WAR as well as the RA9-WAR also available here at FanGraphs, Baseball-Reference’s WAR, and Baseball Prospectus’ WARP. I included for consideration any player in the top five of any of those lists. That search returned nine pitchers for the potential five slots on a Cy Young ballot. Those players are listed below, with a mix of traditional and advanced statistics:
| Max Scherzer | Jacob deGrom | Stephen Strasburg | Walker Buehler | Patrick Corbin | Hyun-Jin Ryu | Sonny Gray | Mike Soroka | Jack Flaherty | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| IP | 166.1 | 190 | 196 | 171.1 | 191.2 | 168.2 | 170.1 | 169.2 | 182.1 |
| K% | 34.8% | 31.6% | 29.6% | 28.4% | 28.4% | 22.1% | 28.9% | 19.9% | 29.5% |
| BB% | 4.8% | 5.7% | 6.7% | 4.4% | 8.1% | 3.6% | 9.6% | 5.7% | 7.2% |
| HR/9 | 0.87 | 0.90 | 1.06 | 0.95 | 0.99 | 0.80 | 0.85 | 0.69 | 1.23 |
| BABIP | .323 | .288 | .277 | .291 | .290 | .279 | .258 | .274 | .250 |
| ERA | 2.81 | 2.61 | 3.49 | 3.15 | 3.10 | 2.35 | 2.80 | 2.60 | 2.96 |
| ERA- | 62 | 63 | 77 | 75 | 69 | 56 | 62 | 58 | 69 |
| FIP | 2.36 | 2.79 | 3.29 | 2.87 | 3.35 | 3.11 | 3.38 | 3.43 | 3.62 |
| FIP- | 52 | 64 | 72 | 65 | 74 | 71 | 74 | 78 | 83 |
| WAR | 6.5 | 6.2 | 5.3 | 5.0 | 4.9 | 4.4 | 4.3 | 4.0 | 4.1 |
We have Scherzer and deGrom in first and second by about a win over the next-best candidate, with deGrom pitching tonight. After those two, we have a lot of innings from Stephen Strasburg and Patrick Corbin, and fewer innings, but better peripherals, from Walker Buehler. After those three, we have four candidates who haven’t thrown a ton of innings, but all have much lower ERA’s than FIPs. As for how these candidates came to be considered, here are their WAR totals:
| Max Scherzer | Jacob deGrom | Stephen Strasburg | Walker Buehler | Patrick Corbin | Hyun-Jin Ryu | Sonny Gray | Mike Soroka | Jack Flaherty | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| WAR | 6.5 | 6.2 | 5.3 | 5 | 4.9 | 4.4 | 4.3 | 4 | 4.1 |
| RA/9 WAR | 6 | 6.6 | 5.6 | 3.8 | 5.6 | 6.1 | 6 | 6.1 | 6.0 |
| BRef | 6 | 6.3 | 5.7 | 2.1 | 5.9 | 4.5 | 5.7 | 5.7 | 4.9 |
| BPro* | 6.0 | 7.2 | 7.8 | 5.4 | 5.6 | 5.0 | 5.2 | 4.7 | 6.2 |
| wAVG | 6.2 | 6.6 | 6.3 | 4.5 | 5.4 | 4.9 | 5.1 | 4.9 | 5.3 |
wAVG takes WAR plus the average of RA9-WAR and BRef WAR plus BPro and divides the total by three.
While FanGraphs’ WAR has Scherzer out in front, the weighted average gives the advantage to deGrom, and due to Strasburg’s strong showing at Baseball Prospectus, he jumps up ahead of his teammate. In assessing the AL Cy Young race, I discussed how the way a voter assigns responsibility to certain results affects how that voter would choose the Cy Young:
If pure results are key, look to RA9-WAR. If you want those results adjusted, Baseball-Reference can help. If you want a more dialed down version of the WAR based on expected contributions, Baseball Prospectus is there to help. If you’re skeptical that we can reasonably isolate defense or contact quality as a skill in a single season, FanGraphs’ FIP-based WAR can help by using strikeouts, walks, and only the strongest and weakest contact in the form of homers and popups. When choosing between a set of very good pitchers all of whom are having very good years, you have to decide what you believe is most important in terms of results and deserved results, and how much control a pitcher has over individual aspects of the game. We try to be as objective as possible, but a little subjectivity is bound to creep in when making these kinds of decisions.
We can also drill down on some of the concerns we have regarding contact quality, and how defense and luck might be affecting some of the results, by using Statcast data. Below, you’ll find the candidates’ xwOBA as compared to their wOBA. Remember that xwOBA, like FIP, looks at strikeouts and walks, but unlike FIP-based WAR, which uses homers and walks, xwOBA assigns a value to every batted ball based on launch angle and exit velocity:
| Player | xwOBA | wOBA | xwOBA-wOBA |
| Max Scherzer | .251 | .271 | -.020 |
| Jacob deGrom | .257 | .260 | -.003 |
| MLB | .324 | .319 | -.005 |
| Stephen Strasburg | .263 | .270 | -.007 |
| Walker Buehler | .271 | .269 | .002 |
| Jack Flaherty | .279 | .267 | .012 |
| Sonny Gray | .284 | .267 | .017 |
| Patrick Corbin | .301 | .283 | .018 |
| Hyun-Jin Ryu | .285 | .268 | .018 |
| Mike Soroka | .304 | .270 | .034 |
Based on these numbers, Scherzer has been generally unlucky, deGrom and Strasburg have been neutral, while the other pitchers have received some sort of benefit based on park, defense, or just lucky bounces that have lowered their actual results compared to what would be expected by exit velocity and launch angle. Here, we still see Scherzer and deGrom as the top two, but Strasburg is not far behind. We can drill down on the differences further by removing strikeouts and walks and look only at batted balls:
| xwOBA | wOBA | xwOBA-wOBA | |
|---|---|---|---|
| Max Scherzer | .357 | .390 | -.033 |
| Stephen Strasburg | .338 | .349 | -.011 |
| MLB | .384 | .376 | -.008 |
| Jacob deGrom | .344 | .349 | -.005 |
| Walker Buehler | .359 | .356 | .003 |
| Jack Flaherty | .359 | .339 | .020 |
| Hyun-Jin Ryu | .350 | .327 | .023 |
| Patrick Corbin | .387 | .358 | .029 |
| Sonny Gray | .351 | .321 | .030 |
| Mike Soroka | .348 | .304 | .044 |
This chart shows a decently tight grouping of xwOBA with everybody but Corbin within about 20 points of Strasburg’s lead. The above doesn’t capture all of a pitcher’s performance given the importance of strikeouts and walks, but it does provide some idea of what has happened when the ball has hit the bat. We can separate home runs and get a better look at how defense and park might have played a factor as well:
| xwOBA | wOBA | xwOBA-wOBA | |
|---|---|---|---|
| Max Scherzer | .325 | .323 | .002 |
| Stephen Strasburg | .292 | .269 | .023 |
| Jacob deGrom | .303 | .278 | .025 |
| MLB | .321 | .292 | .029 |
| Walker Buehler | .326 | .287 | .039 |
| Patrick Corbin | .330 | .285 | .045 |
| Hyun-Jin Ryu | .322 | .274 | .048 |
| Sonny Gray | .305 | .253 | .052 |
| Jack Flaherty | .305 | .242 | .063 |
| Mike Soroka | .327 | .260 | .067 |
There are a few conclusions we can draw. The first is the difficulty of applying team-wide defense to particular pitchers as Corbin, Strasburg, and Scherzer all play for the same team, but have vastly different xwOBA-wOBA results. This is also true to a lesser extent for parks, as we can see with Sonny Gray, who gets his numbers park adjusted, but the defense more than makes up for that adjustment. Another thing to note is that Jack Flaherty is in the middle on contact, but all the way down the list on balls in play, getting a ton of help from his defense, but not much help from his park on homers.
If you wanted a WAR based on xwOBA, it might look something like this:
| Name | WAR | IP | xwoba | xWAR |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Jacob deGrom | 6.2 | 190 | .257 | 6.4 |
| Stephen Strasburg | 5.3 | 196 | .263 | 6.2 |
| Max Scherzer | 6.5 | 166.1 | .251 | 6.0 |
| Noah Syndergaard | 4.1 | 185.2 | .279 | 5.0 |
| Walker Buehler | 5 | 171.1 | .271 | 5.0 |
| Luis Castillo | 4 | 178.2 | .277 | 4.9 |
| Jack Flaherty | 4.1 | 182.1 | .279 | 4.8 |
| Sonny Gray | 4.3 | 170.1 | .284 | 4.2 |
| Kenta Maeda | 2.3 | 148.2 | .275 | 4.1 |
| Hyun-Jin Ryu | 4.4 | 168.2 | .285 | 4.1 |
| Zack Greinke | 3.7 | 146 | .279 | 3.8 |
| Chris Paddack | 2.5 | 140.2 | .278 | 3.8 |
| Patrick Corbin | 4.9 | 191.2 | .301 | 3.6 |
| Aaron Nola | 3.5 | 191.2 | .302 | 3.6 |
| Yu Darvish | 2.3 | 170.1 | .295 | 3.6 |
| Kyle Hendricks | 3.6 | 165.2 | .294 | 3.5 |
| Clayton Kershaw | 3.3 | 165.1 | .296 | 3.4 |
| Zack Wheeler | 4.3 | 180.1 | .303 | 3.3 |
| Anthony DeSclafani | 2.1 | 155.2 | .299 | 3.1 |
| Mike Soroka | 3.7 | 164.2 | .304 | 3.0 |
| Max Fried | 2.7 | 156.2 | .302 | 3.0 |
| Joey Lucchesi | 1.9 | 153.2 | .303 | 2.8 |
| Brandon Woodruff | 3.2 | 119.2 | .288 | 2.8 |
| Madison Bumgarner | 3.2 | 195.2 | .316 | 2.7 |
| Joe Musgrove | 2.9 | 159.1 | .309 | 2.6 |
| Anibal Sanchez | 2.4 | 154 | .309 | 2.5 |
| Adrian Houser | 1.3 | 103.1 | .286 | 2.5 |
| Robbie Ray | 2.4 | 163 | .315 | 2.3 |
| Zach Eflin | 1.7 | 150.2 | .312 | 2.3 |
| Sandy Alcantara | 2.1 | 184.1 | .320 | 2.3 |
| Jose Quintana | 3.2 | 162.2 | .317 | 2.2 |
| Adam Wainwright | 2.6 | 162.1 | .318 | 2.1 |
| Eric Lauer | 2 | 139 | .312 | 2.1 |
| Julio Teheran | 1.7 | 172.1 | .321 | 2.1 |
| Jordan Lyles | 1.5 | 131.1 | .312 | 2.0 |
| Tyler Mahle | 1.7 | 122.1 | .309 | 2.0 |
| Caleb Smith | 1.3 | 144.1 | .316 | 2.0 |
| German Marquez | 3.5 | 174 | .323 | 2.0 |
| Jason Vargas | 1.7 | 138.2 | .316 | 1.9 |
| Jeff Samardzija | 1.2 | 175.1 | .325 | 1.9 |
| Miles Mikolas | 2.5 | 176.1 | .327 | 1.8 |
| Steven Matz | 1.7 | 149.1 | .322 | 1.8 |
| Pablo Lopez | 1.4 | 102 | .310 | 1.6 |
| Jon Gray | 3 | 150 | .325 | 1.6 |
| Trevor Richards | 1.1 | 112 | .317 | 1.5 |
| Chase Anderson | 1 | 128 | .324 | 1.4 |
| Dakota Hudson | 0.9 | 166.2 | .336 | 1.1 |
| Dallas Keuchel | 0.9 | 101.2 | .325 | 1.1 |
| Cole Hamels | 2.2 | 137.2 | .333 | 1.1 |
| Matt Strahm | 1 | 109.2 | .329 | 1.0 |
| Mike Foltynewicz | 0.6 | 105 | .328 | 1.0 |
| Vince Velasquez | 0.5 | 108.2 | .331 | 0.9 |
| Jake Arrieta | 1.1 | 135.2 | .336 | 0.9 |
| Zach Davies | 1.4 | 150.2 | .340 | 0.8 |
| Merrill Kelly | 1.7 | 170.1 | .344 | 0.7 |
| Tanner Roark | 1.9 | 110.1 | .338 | 0.6 |
| Trevor Williams | 1.2 | 133.2 | .342 | 0.6 |
| Jon Lester | 2.5 | 165.2 | .345 | 0.5 |
| Chris Archer | 0.7 | 119.2 | .346 | 0.3 |
| Steven Brault | 0.7 | 103 | .345 | 0.3 |
| Tyler Beede | 0.1 | 107.2 | .348 | 0.2 |
| Michael Wacha | -0.3 | 121 | .353 | 0.0 |
| Antonio Senzatela | 0.7 | 114.2 | .352 | 0.0 |
We didn’t even discuss Luis Castillo or Noah Syndergaard, but they are having very good seasons based on xwOBA. At the top, some of these players are close enough that it feels like splitting hairs. When ranking, a value judgment must be made, and how certain we are about who is assigned responsibility for the results, or the results that might have been, can help to dictate our choices.
Craig Edwards can be found on twitter @craigjedwards.
It’s weird looking at lists of NL Cy Young candidates and not seeing Kershaw’s name.
he was right in the thick of things with a real legit chance until 4 straight starts where he gave up 14 er in 22 ip. That killed any hope for him.
and then after a decent start where he gave up 2 er in 6.1 innings, he’s throwing a real clunker tonight with 4 runs in 4 innings. So last 6 starts he’s given up 20 er in only 32.1 innings. With 13 homers given up in those 6 starts. I’m afraid the days of Kershaw being a contender for the Cy Young are past right now.
It’s going to be 5 straight years without a Kershaw Cy Young, including a three year stretch where he had a 189 ERA+, 2.28 FIP and 0.860 WHIP.
Scherzer had a 153 ERA+, 2.97 FIP and 0.931 WHIP in that same stretch and picked up 2 CYAs.
yeah. Kershaw has made 23 fewer starts than Scherzer in those 5 years and 154.1 fewer innings including tonight now. To put him in perspective somewhat- he’s thrown in these last 5 years 3 more innings than Madbum.
Kershaw got so unlucky in 2015 to have not 1 but 2 historical type seasons going up against, and then in 2016 and really even in 2017- he missed so much time that he didn’t have a realistic shot vs Scherzer.
2016 is the real turning point – he’s never fully recovered 100% from that back injury.
Before that back injury, he was having a historic season – in the month of May alone, he had more CGSOs than walks allowed.
Ended that season w/ 6.3 fWAR, 1.69 ERA 1.80 FIP 2.28 xFIP in 149 IP in 21 starts.
I remember that- he had just pitched on Sunday Night Baseball if memory serves me right. That was a bad start- 4 runs in 6 innings. Prior to that he had a 1.57 ERA in 115 innings. .450 OPS against. 15 Starts. 1.61 FIP.
and that’s when his hr really went down.
prior- 0.54 hr/9 innings
after- 1.16 hr/9 innings
I know some of that is ball, but still- he’s been hr prone before this year now for a few years.
so looking at the Tango Tracker:
de Grom 72.9
Ryu 67.1
Corbin 65.2
Scherzer 64.5
Gray 63.1
Flaherty 62.6
Strasburg 62.5
Soroka 62.3
Castillo 61.4
I think it correctly shows Ryu as having a far better chance than WAR shows. Someone who is 12-5 with a 2.35 ERA is going to have a lot of votes.
Lack of inning pitched and low K’s (both overall and per 9 innings) will hurt Ryu. A lot.
Ryu will get up to 180 innings at least.. the BBWAA voters don’t look at strikeouts anywhere near as much as you think…
Are you a BBWAA voter?
No, but I know(based on results) that they look at ERA far more than you want to think they do. Everyone brings up de Grom last year. The ERA was what won him the award last year. (same with Snell for that matter). 2 years ago- Kluber/Sale- same thing. Sale had over 300 k’s and was a distant 2nd to Kluber because Kluber’s ERA was 0.65 better than Sale.
I actually think the award voters are more and more getting desensitized to strikeouts..
For those who aren’t doing this sort of analysis, 2nd half dives are also #narratives that #matter (if he’d beaten DeGrom instead of matched him, maybe)
definitely think the Ryu bad stretch hurts him. Both guys still have 2 more starts left….
No guarantee he makes it to 180 innings, particularly with how he’s been pitching. Plus the Dodgers are likely to baby him in his last couple of starts.
As for strikeouts, I think you’re missing the fact that there’s a certain threshold that voters are looking for. There’s no hard and fast rule, but Ryu is nowhere near the level that most voters want.
And of course ERA matters. But the guys you mentioned (deGroom, Sale, and Kluber) all had huge much larger leads in ERA. Plus, some voters will look at home/road splits and see that much of Ryu’s ERA lead is fueled by Dodger Stadium.
Sale didn’t win. Got blown out by Kluber despite having over 300 k’s.
I think the last few starts matter quite a bit. We could wind up with
Ryu 14-5 180.2 innings 2.29 ERA
de Grom 9-8 202 innings 2.67 ERA
would it be shocking at all to see Ryu get it there? I sure don’t.
Should obviously say (deGroom, Snell, and Kluber) above.
Anyway, I wouldn’t be surprised to see Ryu finish outside of the top 5.
Yeah the ERA is nice but much of it is fueled by Dodger Stadium.
Meanwhile, he’s 10th in BR WAR, 6th in Fangraphs, 4th in FIP, and outside of the top 10 in innings pitched (21st), K/9 (25), and K’s (23rd).
It’s hard to find a recent comp for Ryu’s season. About the best that I could find was Clay Buchholz in 2010: low ERA, low K rate, less than 200 IPs. Clay finished 6th in the Cy Young voting, behind several guys with much worse ERAs.
BTW, a few days ago mlb.com published a poll of 42 reporters and editors, asking them to rank their top 3 choices for Cy Young.
In the NL, Scherzer got 23 first-place votes and deGroom had 19. Ryu appears to have finished 3rd in the poll so I may be underrating him a bit. But his lack of first place votes shows that he’s clearly not in contention for the award at this point.
Verlander easily won the AL poll, garnering 37 of the 42 first place votes.
1 caution on that source is that group is far more advanced metrics oriented than the normal voting populace
“1 caution on that source is that group is far more advanced metrics oriented than the normal voting populace”
Ummm….last year 8 of the NL Cy Young voters came from mlb.com. And 4 others came from The Athletic, another site that’s heavy on advanced stats.
and there are 30 voters overall. So 18 aren’t. And that can make a huge deal.
I’d also say that the voters rotate which awards they vote on. looking last year-
NL Cy Young 8 mlb.com/4 The Athletic(12 total)
NL MVP 3 mlb.com/6 the athletic (9 total)
NL MOY 3 mlb.com/2 the athletic(5 total)
NL ROY 5 mlb.com/3 the athletic(8 total)
so the other 3 combined had 22 voters. so lets say the guys who voted on MOY vote on Cy Young. Think that would make a huge difference, don’t you? Instead of 40% of the vote being advanced metrics folks, it’d be 17%.
The AL had 13 for MVP, 9 for Cy Young, 8 for MOY, and 7 for ROY btw.
Yeah, the voters change from year-to-year. We all know that. But that actually undermines your claim that YOU have some sort of special insight into the mind of the Cy Young voters. This isn’t the Hall of Fame where we know who about 95% of the voters are. We have no idea who will be voting for the awards. So what sort of insight could anyone have?
last year the Cy Young vote had the most analytically based vote of any of them. And still had only 40% of the vote. the other 3 were 30% or less…
Clay isn’t a good comp because he had 175 innings – at least 35 innings behind all of the top 5- in an era that innings thrown meant far more than it does now Ryu will be within 20-25 innings. HUGE difference..
Dude, you’re really missing Stever’s point. He’s specifically adding something new to this conversation, with regards to considering voter’s past behavior.
Your opinion, and restating the advanced stats above, are not.
Of course, if one uses metrics such as WAR, wOBA and xwOBA to evaluate pitchers, pitch-to-contact groundballers like Ryu and Soroka will be undervalued, especially one like Ryu.
“Yeah, but that 2.86 FIP doesn’t take into account some following facts about Ryu at all (and that’s why he has always outperformed his FIP, except for ’14; there are many variables at play here, so outperforming FIP literally every year is nearly impossible).
1) He’s great at limiting contact authority; 5th lowest average exit velocity allowed among 181 pitchers with at least 1000 BBE in the Statcast era.
2) He completely shuts down the running game, boasting the lowest rate of SB allowed per IP among pitchers to debut in the last 50 years; he’s also pretty good at minimizing WP and HB.
3) He has the third-highest career LOB% in modern baseball history among 1398 starters with at least 700 IP.
Do you know who’s directly above Ryu on the exit velocity list? Kyle Hendricks.
Below are those two pitchers’ MLB ranks in some career stats (of 82 active starting pitchers with 700+ career IP).
Ryu: 33rd in K%, 9th in BB%, 21st in K-BB%, 13th in HR/9, 10th in FIP, 3rd in ERA
Hen: 43rd in K%, 10th in BB%, 25th in K-BB%, 20th in HR/9, 19th in FIP, 6th in ERA
That’s what happens when you (FIP) consider only 36 percent of plate appearance outcomes (for an average pitcher) and ignores everything else.”
* WP – SB – GIDP *
Ryu – 0, 1, 15
Soroka – 3, 6, 23
deGrom – 2, 21, 9
Gray – 7, 14, 13
Scherzer – 0, 8, 7
Flaherty – 6, 1, 13
Corbin – 4, 11, 14
Buehler – 4, 5, 7
Strasburg – 8, 16, 12
deGrom and Syndergaard have each allowed 21 and 38 stolen bases, respectively, while pairing up with better throwing catchers (Nido 6th in “Pop Time” among 75 MLB catchers, Ramos 37th), whereas Ryu, Kershaw and Buehler have each allowed 1, 2 and 5 stolen bases, respectively, while pairing up with worse throwing catchers (Martin 54th, Barnes 71st).
while I agree with you to some degree- Will Smith is better than either of the Dodgers catchers(and Ryu has thrown to him now in 5 of his 27 starts(he only thru to Barnes in 2 starts). Kershaw now in 9 of 27 starts, and Buehler in 11 of 28 starts.
“Of course, if one uses metrics such as WAR, wOBA and xwOBA to evaluate pitchers, pitch-to-contact groundballers like Ryu and Soroka will be undervalued, especially one like Ryu”
True for WAR (fWAR at least), but not really for wOBA and xwOBA. If all a guy did was give up weak grounders, his xwOBA is going to be close to zero since those low exit velocity/negative launch angle balls in play have very low hit percentages, and when they do go for hits, they’re singles.
well, everyone is fighting for 2nd now. after tonight’s 5.4 point start, it’s de Grom, and then everyone else. de Grom has a 78.3-67.1 lead.
I suspect that Flaherty (depending on how the next ten days go for both him and his team) will get a bump based the narrative of him carrying the team into the postseason and his absurd second half numbers. I could realisitically see him finishing in the top three if he drops another couple of 7-8 inning, 0-2 run starts.
realistically I think he only will have 1 more start. He started last night, so theoretically could start again on Tuesday and then again on Sunday. But given they’re up 3 now with only 9 to go, he might not be needed to start on Sunday.
The narrative could also hurt him, as many voters may dismiss him out of hand due to his utterly mediocre first half. Arrieta was still rather good in the first half of 2015 before he went on his spectacular second half run.
I’d vote for Strasburg because Scherzer’s injury probably cost us catching the Braves.
it’s interesting in the tracker Corbin is actually ahead of Strasburg(and Scherzer for that matter).
the Nationals are 9.5 games behind the Braves. Scherzer missed what, 3 starts?
he made 1 start from the start of the All Star break thru August 22, Strasburg made 8 in that same period. So 7 starts…
But where I would have a problem with this logic…..
Joe Ross, Austin Voth, and Eric Fedde in this period…. go 7-2 in 12 starts 63.1 ip with only 22 er as starters- so a 3.13 ERA. So his injury really didn’t cost the Nationals there. Nats went 22-15 in that period.
Lol it wasn’t just Scherzer…
After last year, when Scherzer and deGrom turned in seasons for the ages, this feels like a serious letdown. I can’t figure out any real separation between them, and Strasburg really isn’t far behind.
On another note, can you imagine the cartwheels Boras is going to turn if Cole and Strasburg both win the Cy Young? He’s going to jump for joy so hard he won’t be able to move for a week.
don’t really think Scherzer has any chance at all. one big problem that he’s going to face with a lot of voters is that he’s only got even after Wednesday only 166.1 innings pitched. With only 1 start left. So best case maybe 173 innings? Almost everyone else has 2 starts left.
Don’t think Boras has to worry about not being able to move for a week- as don’t think either Cole or Strasburg wins.
Scherzer has two starts left as things are currently lined up. If the Nats have clinched by his 2nd start (last day of the season) he will probably be skipped for the WC game.
https://www.fangraphs.com/teams/nationals/schedule
That said I think it is deGrom’s award to lose at this point.
yeah, and odds are pretty good that happens where Scherzer gets skipped for the WC game..
I think if anyone beats him, it’s Ryu. If de Grom struggles last 2 starts, and Ryu has 2 good starts- Ryu could open up a pretty wide ERA lead.
I think with Scherzer at 172 or so innings, going to be tough. in 2017 Kershaw had 175 innings, and an ERA 0.20 better than Scherzer, and it was 27-3 for first place votes for Scherzer….
Why on earth would you think that deGrom would struggle in his next two starts while Ryu would be good in his next two starts?
Ryu has ranged from bad to awful in 4 of his last 5 starts. Looking back on deGrom’s game log, you have to go back to 5/17 (22 starts) to find 4 bad starts. (And one of deGrom’s ‘bad’ starts was 6 innings, 3 runs, 7 K’s and 8 baserunners….you have to go back to April to find his next ‘bad’ start).
well his first one is tonight in Cincy at the as Matt V. put it last Sunday night in the Great American Small Park. And Ryu’s last start was his best in a month. If he can follow that up with 2 more good ones, he’s going to make it interesting.
Like I said- I think if anyone beats de Grom(he’s the clear favorite right now)- it’s Ryu. Scherzer just about has no shot to me given his really low inning totals(unless he makes a 2nd start which is unlikely). He could be a crazy 30 innings behind de Grom- plus de Grom has the better ERA.
You definitely overthought this one. deGrom went 7 innings, struck out nine, walked zero, shut them out, and will get the win unless something truly weird happens in the next inning.
If you’re betting then yeah, I would say just going by Tango is the best bet. In terms of what is deserved? No, and I don’t think that’s what you’re arguing either. And FWIW, there isn’t that big of a gap between deGrom, Ryu, Scherzer, Strasburg, Gray, Flaherty, etc. It’s not like in the AL, where Verlander and Cole 25 are points ahead of the competition.
I like that we are in an era of baseball analytics where we could have a back to back Cy Young winner who didn’t win 20 games combined between the two seasons.
That royally sucks and significantly diminishes the award.
gr8 b8 m8
Agreed. It sucks to give the award to the best pitcher when we could give it to someone who isn’t the best pitcher instead!
My gauge is Greg Maddux, one of the best pitchers of all time. What did he do, 15 seasons in a row winning 15 or more games. That doesn’t happen by accident.
I know we talked yesterday with the AL award with voter fatigue possibly swaying the decision.
I think it could be more in place in the NL quite frankly.. Are the voters going to give deGrom back to back? Are they going to vote Scherzer again? The possible fatigue is frankly more present in the NL than it is the AL.
The NL race is going to be one where when they announce the finalists it’s going to be newsworthy. Such a deep group.
I tend to agree. One thing on the AL guys is none of them have won recently. No Kluber, no Sale, no Snell this year, Cole was a marginal candidate last year & other than JV, the other guys have rarely figured into CY voting.
As for JV- While he’s certainly been involved in a # of CY votes, I think he may get a boost because he has lost the 3 closest races ever, 2 of them in the last 3 years. Similar to a guy finally getting an MVP award after years of being close, there could be a “he’s been close for so long, lets get JV #2” train that gets rolling.
totally agree. Your 2nd paragraph is why I thought if Kershaw hadn’t had that real rough patch, he would have had a great shot this year to steal one as a makeup for all of his close calls
I find it a bit odd that there was really no discussion of Ryu outside of the numbers. His ERA was a huge storyline for a lot of the season and the voters love that kind of stuff. I do’nt think he has been the best pitcher but I think he’s gonna get a lot more love than this article would indicate.
Yeah, his struggles in August/Early September really hurt him. Do think if de Grom were to fade and Ryu puts together 2 more starts like he did last Saturday- that he has a far better shot than one here reading the article would think.
…is the takeaway here that Kenta Maeda is underrated?
definitely think you could make the case….
You really wonder, if he had a “normal” contract instead of what he’s got with all the money tied to # of starts- if the Dodgers wouldn’t have left him at starter and we’d really get to see just how good Maeda is.
Or more likely that xwOBA is a flawed statistic with outliers and suffers from sample size issues just like any other statistic.
As with the MVP there is some lack of clarity (or at least lack of agreement) as to what the Cy Young award should be. Should it go to the best player who is a pitcher or the best person at actually pitching? For what it is worth here are the 9 players mentioned in order of non-pitching WAR (so baserunning, fielding, and hitting):
deGrom: 0.6
Strasburg: 0.2
Flaherty: 0.2
Ryu: 0.1
Gray: 0.1
Scherzer: 0.1
Buehler: 0.0
Soroka: -0.2
Corbin: -0.3
For what it is worth I think the Cy Young award should go to the best person at pitching, but I still thought it was interesting to look at!
it should be who had the best season that season pitching- based on what actually happened. Things like baserunning and hitting shouldn’t come into play much. Fielding I’d argue should.
What do you mean by “based on what actually happened”?
frankly, not using stuff like FIP and xFIP. Folks want to diminish a pitcher being good because their fielding was good, or they got lucky, or whatever. The award should be what actually did happen- and not frankly what should have happened.
You must hate ERA, what with those unearned runs not counting.
Pitching is more than just homers, walks, and strikeouts.
FIP- where intentional walks count against you, but giving up a shot to the gap doesn’t.
Voros McCracken begs to differ!
(^^^ intentionally over-simplified view)
Say hello to measurement error!
It’s a really good debate. Taken to the absurd extreme, if you had to vote for one of these two pitchers for CY, who would it be?
Pitcher A: Went 20-0 with a 0.00 ERA. Zero strikeouts, 300 walks. Every single batter he faced that didn’t walk, hit a line drive at 120 mph. Half of those balls in play were robbed of being home runs.
Pitcher B: Went, say, 15-9 with a 1.99 ERA. Struck out 400 batters, walked zero. Hardest ball hit against him was 70 mph but 250 little bloop popups fell in for hits.
Easily pitcher A in that scenario. Strike outs are really only important that you get them in certain scenarios where you are trying to prevent a run. If you don’t allow any runs, it doesn’t matter how you get them out.
What pitcher would you rather have for the following year? Which one would you want to pitch game 7 of the World Series? Most importantly, which one was “better”?
Run prevention is the name of the game, of course, and from that perspective, there’s no doubt that A was “better”. But can you really say that A pitched “better”?
The 1st question is utterly meaningless to the award.
It’s a natural heuristic for who actually pitched better. If a pitcher benefitted from several hundred HRs saved by outfielders, it’s the OF that’s insanely good.
It’s really not though. You might say that you’d rather have Chris Sale next year, but that doesn’t mean he should get close to the Cy Young vote this year…
@Jon – that’s the thing..the Cy Young award is for who pitched better this season, not who you expect to be better next season.
I understand what you’re trying to say, but get back to basics and see you’re completely misapplying predictive logic.
The results were better. That is what matters.
The pitcher who was better is the one who had Nobody score on him. Since the reason you take the field is to win, if nobody scores on you, you can’t really lose. As Herm said, you play to win the game.
Baseball-Reference’s WAR is misstated in the article as favoring Scherzer over deGrom 6.5 to 6.2. It’s actually 6.3 to 6.0 in deGrom’s favor. And when non-pitching WAR (such as hitting) is included, deGrom actually jumps to 6.8. Either way, bWAR favors deGrom over Scherzer (and all other candidates).
that’s what it says in the table, I think?
Oops, you’re right, I was looking at the wrong column. So many WARs!
Nevermind, Craig beat me to it.
Sonny Gray having a great season is so nice to see. He has always had electric stuff and it’s always fun to see an undersized pitcher throw wicked stuff. And his competitive makeup is about off the charts so he is just a joy to watch. So happy for him. Hopefully the Reds hold onto Derek Johnson because he is clearly a top tier pitching coach. That reunion has been ideal for both parties.
Strasburg seems like the easy choice. Castillo would be 2nd.
Whether he deserves it or not, I just don’t see Scherzer winning it. He has been almost a non-factor for 2 months. My guess is DeGrom wins it and Ryu, Strasburg, and maybe even Flaherty and Soroka are ahead of Scherzer.
When a pitcher comes up big should count a great deal and Scherzer has just choked on the bit in two consecutive very important starts while deGrom has put up seven straight quality starts including two 7 inning, 0 runs allowed, high strikeout performances in his last two outings when the Mets needed them desperately.
even without that….
de Grom 10-8 2.51 248 k’s in 197 ip
Scherzer 10-7 2.81 233 k’s in 166.1 ip
the numbers that matter to most voters- de Grom is just better than Scherzer.
and heck, even for a good bit of folks who look at advanced metrics- de Grom is ahead of Scherzer now. 6.7-6.5 in fWAR.
Stupid complaint, I know, but I keep looking at the red squares as 1st, not the blue, haha.
What would you rather have? Pitcher A goes 6 scoreless innings with 12 Ks or Pitcher B who goes 8 scoreless and 8ks? I will take pitcher B in that scenario every time because its not about how many stirkeouts a pitcher gets.
“After those three, we have four candidates who haven’t thrown a ton of innings, but all have much lower ERA’s than FIPs.”
……in no small part because of their standout grounder or pop up tendency; Soroka, Ryu and Gray each rank 8th, 11th and 13th, respectively, in grounder rate this year out of 123 SPs with 250 BBE while Flaherty has the 9th highest pop-up rate among the same group of starters.
Craig, isn’t Flaherty your team’s pitcher?
– Jack Flaherty –
’18: 11.8 PU% (16th/128 SPs), 86.4 MPH EV (16th) .257 BABIP, 4 SB, 14 GIDP, 79.3 LOB%
’19: 12.8 PU% (9th/123 SPs), 86.3 MPH EV (9th) .250 BABIP, 1 SB, 13 GIDP, 82.7 LOB%
From the Fangraphs glossary.
“For example, pitchers with the ability to limit the running game or generate fly balls at the expense of line drives or ground balls are more likely to beat their FIP than the average player. This doesn’t mean that every lefty fly ball pitcher will do so, but simply that holding runners and generating a type of batted ball that falls for hits less frequently are legitimate skills that might allow you to limit your runs allowed.”
– SP lowest wOBA allowed on contact (all batted balls), 2019 –
1. Mike Soroka (8th in GB%) – .305
2. Sonny Gray (13th in GB%) – .321
4. Brad Keller (18th in GB%) – .323
4. Brett Anderson (4th in GB%) – .329
5. Hyun-Jin Ryu (11th in GB%) – .331
– SP lowest xwOBA allowed on contact (all batted balls), 2019 –
1. Martin Perez (33rd in GB%) – .328
2. Kenta Maeda (16th in PU%) – .329
3. Wade Miley (16th in GB%) – .331
4. Marcus Stroman (6th in GB%) – .333
5. Luis Castillo (2nd in GB%) – .333
*Perez has allowed the lowest average exit velocity in the AL so far this year, and in the same category, Ryu and Maeda are currently tied for first place in the NL with Kyle Hendricks of the Cubs.
And again, xwOBA is far from a perfect metric; there are a lot of hard-hit balls with a low xBA, and also a lot of bloops and flares with a high xBA, so you need a little more digging into it.
– Number of batted balls (with >.500 xBA and .500 xBA and <80 MPH EV) allowed, 2019 –
Ryu: 25
Flaherty: 20
Soroka: 20
deGron: 17
Strasburg: 16
Scherzer: 16
Castillo: 15
Gray: 12
Corbin: 7
– Number of line drives (with 100 MPH EV) allowed, 2019 –
deGrom: 5
Soroka: 4
Corbin: 3
Gray: 3
Flaherty: 2
Scherzer: 1
Castillo: 1
Ryu: 1
– Number of batted balls (with xBA above .500 and EV below 95 MPH) allowed, 2019 –
Ryu: 58
Flaherty: 45
Strasburg: 43
Scherzer: 40
Soroka: 38
deGrom: 35
Castillo: 33
Corbin: 29
Gray: 28
– Number of batted balls (with xBA above .500 and EV below 80 MPH) allowed, 2019 –
Ryu: 25
Flaherty: 20
Soroka: 20
deGrom: 17
Strasburg: 16
Scherzer: 16
Castillo: 15
Gray: 12
Corbin: 7
– Number of line drives (with xBA below .500 and EV above 100 MPH ) allowed, 2019 –
deGrom: 5
Soroka: 4
Corbin: 3
Gray: 3
Flaherty: 2
Scherzer: 1
Castillo: 1
Ryu: 1