The AL Cy Young Award Battle

Award season is upon us, and as far as the biggest pieces of individual hardware go, there will be relatively little debate this season. Clayton Kershaw would appear to be poised to sweep the NL Cy Young and MVP awards, and Mike Trout would seemingly be in line to finally (?) land his first AL MVP. That leaves us with the AL Cy Young, a heavyweight matchup between perennial contender and one-time winner Felix Hernandez and this year’s breakthrough pitcher, Corey Kluber. Conventional wisdom seems to hold that Hernandez would be the choice of traditionalists, while Kluber would gain the sabermetric vote. Should that be the case? Let’s take a deeper look.

Felix “The King” Hernandez has been baseball royalty since arriving on the scene as a teenager in 2005. He first made a run at the Cy Young in 2009 at age 25, going 19-5, 2.49, and finishing second behind Zack Greinke. He won it in 2010, in what was seen as a seminal moment in the ongoing acceptance of sabermetrics by the traditional baseball media. Felix went 13-12 with an AL-leading 2.27 ERA that season, and voters looked past his meager win total and rightly rewarded him. While Felix has been strong since then, garnering two more Top 10 Cy Young finishes along the way, he didn’t truly recapture his 2010 form until this season. His 15-6 record continues to belie his ability, and while his 2.14 ERA led the AL, it took a last-minute scoring change, docking four earned runs allowed from his total, to do so.

While Felix had been recognized as a future great from a very young age, Corey Kluber has taken a more scenic route to excellence. He was selected on the 4th round of the 2007 draft by the Padres out of Stetson University. He was moved to the Indians in a 2010 trade that sent Jake Westbrook to St. Louis and Ryan Ludwick to San Diego. He was never seen as a top-shelf prospect – while he did strike out just over a batter per inning in his minor league career, he also allowed over a hit per inning and posted a less than spectacular 4.42 career minor league ERA. After a couple of nondescript stints at the major league level in 2011-12, Kluber cracked the Indians’ rotation to stay in 2013, posting a strong 136/33 K/BB, and then took it to the next level this season.

To cut through the noise in their numbers and get to their true performance level, Let’s take a look at their outcome frequency and relative production by BIP type data compared to MLB average for 2014, both before and after adjustment for context. First, the frequency info:

FREQ – 2014
Hernandez % REL PCT
K 27.2% 133 85
BB 5.0% 66 9
POP 4.6% 59 3
FLY 22.4% 80 7
LD 17.9% 86 4
GB 55.2% 127 99
———— ———— ———– ———–
Kluber % REL PCT
K 28.3% 139 88
BB 5.4% 71 16
POP 6.4% 83 22
FLY 25.5% 91 24
LD 21.7% 104 73
GB 46.4% 106 80

First and foremost, both Hernandez and Kluber excel at the two behaviors that key pitcher performance, whether you measure it by ERA or FIP – they maximize strikeouts and minimize walks. Hernandez’ K rate is in the 85th percentile, while his BB rate is in the 9th percentile. Kluber is right there with him, with K and BB percentile ranks of 88 and 16, respectively. Such maximization of free outs and minimization of free baserunners gives pitchers significant margin for error in their management of batted ball contact.

Felix’ BIP frequency portfolio is a thing of beauty. His GB rate is in the 99th percentile, with all of his other BIP percentile ranks in the single digits. He has always been a ground ball guy, but his previous high grounder percentile rank was 92, and that was in his Cy Young season of 2010. His previous low fly ball percentile rank was 13, also in 2010 – it was 7 in 2014. His previous low liner percentile rank was 12 in 2009 – it was 4 in 2014. While a low liner rate alone is nothing to get too excited about – they fluctuate quite a bit from season to season for most pitchers – the full package shown in Felix frequency profile most certainly is.

Kluber’s BIP profile isn’t too shabby itself, though it does suffer when posted alongside the King’s. He too is a ground ball generator (80 percentile rank) though not to as extreme an extent. His liner rate is quite high (73 percentile rank), though it’s down quite a bit from his 2013 97 liner percentile rank.

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We can learn only so much from looking at the frequencies – we need to get a better feel for the batted ball authority allowed within the major BIP types. To do so, let’s take a look at the production by BIP type allowed by both pitchers, both before and after adjustment for context:

PROD – 2014
Hernandez AVG OBP SLG REL PRD ADJ PRD ACT ERA CALC ERA TRU ERA
FLY 0.227 0.586 65 103
LD 0.627 0.912 98 98
GB 0.222 0.248 86 69
ALL BIP 0.279 0.423 73 75
ALL PA 0.199 0.239 0.301 59 61 2.14 2.21 2.29
———— ———— ———– ———– ———– ———– ———– ———– ———–
Kluber AVG OBP SLG REL PRD ADJ PRD ACT ERA CALC ERA TRU ERA
FLY 0.276 0.635 84 67
LD 0.722 0.970 121 99
GB 0.229 0.264 94 86
ALL BIP 0.331 0.490 100 84
ALL PA 0.231 0.273 0.342 77 66 2.44 2.87 2.45

The actual production allowed on each BIP type is indicated in the AVG and SLG columns, and is converted to run values and compared to MLB average in the REL PRD column. That figure is then adjusted for context, such as home park, team defense, luck, etc., in the ADJ PRD column. In the three right-most columns, their actual ERAs, calculated component ERAs based on actual production allowed, and “tru” ERAs, which are adjusted for context, are all presented. For the purposes of this exercise, SH and SF are included as outs and HBP are excluded from the OBP calculation.

A couple of the significant contextual factors that are sure to creep into the ongoing comparisons between Hernandez and Kluber are the extreme pitcher-friendliness of Felix’ home park, Safeco Field, and the caliber of the defense playing behind Kluber, which has received low grades from advanced metrics. By poring through the production by BIP data above, we can get a better feel for how these factors should be weighted.

Hernandez allowed well below MLB average production on fly balls (.227 AVG-.586 SLG, 65 REL PRD), though that is heavily influenced by his home park. In actuality, he allowed slightly harder than average fly ball contact (103 ADJ PRD). He allows very few fly balls, as we saw above, so in totality, Felix is affected by Safeco much less than other Mariner starters. On the other hand, Felix allows tons of grounders, and yielded .222 AVG-.248 SLG production on them, for 86 REL PRD. After adjustment for context, however, he should have allowed materially lesser production – a 69 ADJ PRD figure that is seemingly impossible on its surface.

Scott Feldman’s 79 mark was the lowest among 2013 ERA qualifiers. Fully 28.2% of the grounders allowed by Hernandez in 2014 – that would be 28.2% of a very large number – were hit at 55 MPH or lower. This, in a league where pitchers don’t bat. Those grounders are basically outs. 59.2% of all grounders allowed in the majors this season were hit at between +5 and -10 degrees off of the bat – only 49.5% of Felix’ were. Felix allows a ton of grounders, and they’re hit much more weakly, and at a much lower exit angle compared to those allowed by his peers. These facts are the primary driver behind his 73 REL PRD on all BIP, and the relatively small – for Safeco – upward contextual adjustment to 75 ADJ PRD.

All in all, the run-preventing effect of Safeco on the fly balls allowed by Felix is basically offset by the bad luck he experienced on grounders. One does not need to make a significant inflationary adjustment to his traditional ERA of 2.14 to come up with his “tru’ ERA of 2.29. You basically need to add back the earned runs taken away from him by the end-game official scoring adjustment.

As for Mr. Kluber? The “contributions” of his defense can easily be seen in his production by BIP type data. He allowed .276 AVG-.635 SLG on fly balls (84 REL PRD), but based on the relative authority of those fly balls, he should have allowed much less damage (67 REL PRD). He also allowed much more damage than he “should” have on liners (121 REL PRD, 99 ADJ PRD) and grounders (94, 86). Overall, he allowed exactly MLB average production on balls in play (100 REL PRD), but adjusted for context, should have allowed 84 ADJ PRD.

Kluber’s calculated component ERA of 2.87 is puffed up quite a bit by extra hits yielded by the relatively poor defense behind him – fairly optimal sequencing allowed him to record a lower actual ERA of 2.44. The impact of those two factors – the defense and the sequencing – offset almost exactly, as his “tru” ERA of 2.45 is virtually the same as his actual mark.

There’s quite a bit of irony here. In this day and age of more sophisticated thought brought on by the introduction and advancement of sabermetrics, actual, traditional ERA – by accident – seems to have gotten this one just right. Yes, Safeco deflates offense, but it affects Felix much less than most because of his prolific grounder-inducing ability. Kluber’s subpar defense did hurt him, but his ability to work out of jams prevented it from negatively impacting his ERA. These are two clearly Cy-worthy seasons – but Felix Hernandez was a little bit better. He would get my vote.





91 Comments
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Luke
11 years ago

Interesting. I was pro-Kluber before reading this.

One factor left out here, though, is pitch-framing. We know Zunino is substantially better at that than Gomes. Do you think this effect would be large enough to tilt the scales in favor of Kluber?

deflated
11 years ago
Reply to  Luke

How many percentage points do you think better framing would move from Kluber’s BBs to Ks? It’s not going to affect the batted ball data and Felix wins there and I just don’t see where a few extra strikes are going to make that big a difference.

vivalajeter
11 years ago
Reply to  deflated

Why wouldn’t it impact batted ball data? I would think that it would help put the pitcher in more pitchers counts, rather than falling behind in the count, and hitters perform worse in pitchers counts.

deflated
11 years ago
Reply to  vivalajeter

I should have said ‘no statistically significant change’ rather than ‘won’t affect’, sloppy phrasing on my part. Changing from Gomes to Zunino we’re talking about 0.9 extra strikes a game; over the course of a season we’re talking about less than 20 at bats were Kluber may have been in a better count with a different catcher and many of those at bats ended in a favourable outcome for Kluber anyway.

I think Gomes’ better arm and lower SB rate would have more of a factor than framing.

haishan
11 years ago
Reply to  deflated

StatCorner estimates Zunino as providing 22 RAA by framing, versus 8 RAA for Gomes. Let’s assume that their framing value was independent of the pitcher, and also that those were the only catchers for Hernandez and Kluber, because that makes calculations easier.

Zunino caught 1121 innings and Gomes 1082; Hernandez and Kluber each pitched 236 innings, basically. So Zunino’s framing saved about 4.6 runs for Hernandez and Gomes saved 1.7 for Kluber.

King Felix’ “tru ERA” comes out to almost exactly 60 ER over the course of the season. Kluber’s comes to 64. Add in the 2.9 extra runs of catcher framing that Zunino saved and it’s a virtual tie. If you want to discount the framing numbers some, that’s fine, but you can’t get Felix’ ERA over Kluber’s, nor can you turn this into a blowout for the King. Which is probably as it should be.

Luke
11 years ago
Reply to  haishan

Thanks haishan. Good answer.

Umpires Love Felix + Zunino
11 years ago
Reply to  haishan

Baseball Prospectus gives data by batteries.

Kluber’s catchers saved him 0.4 runs total.
Hernandez’s catchers saved him 8.3 runs total.

Quite the difference, huh?

(Felix + Zunino was the 2nd best framing duo in the entire major leagues!)

haishan
11 years ago
Reply to  haishan

aha, I didn’t realize battery data was available. Google failed me on this one.

Brian
11 years ago

Kershaw is poised to sweep the NL Cy Young and MVP awards? I know this article is about the AL Cy Young, but that statement (which is totally gratuitous in this article) is not accurate. It’s unclear who is going to take the NL MVP, so it’s perplexing why you’d bother expressing that opinion in an article not about it.

Brian
11 years ago
Reply to  Brian

To that point, McCutchen is sitting on a .314/.410/.542 line, 25 HR, and he led the world in wRC (168). He has 6.8 WAR and has won the MVP before.

Kershaw is a God among men but has only made 27 starts, is a pitcher, and only has a 0.4 WAR lead over the popular position player on a playoff team. My money is on Cutch, and I can’t say that’s the wrong choice.

Yirmiyahu
11 years ago
Reply to  Brian

Yeah, I’d call the NL MVP harder to predict than the AL Cy Young.

You have Kershaw (who was amazing), but like you said he’s a pitcher and only pitched 27 games. Then there’s McCutchen (who produced more offensive runs than anyone else), but his traditional counting stats aren’t too impressive (25 HR, 89 runs, 83 RBI). Then there’s Stanton, who had the great counting stats (and I think the voters might take into account what he would’ve produced in his last 17 games), but was on a 4th-place team.

If I have to bet, I’d bet on McCutchen winning it.

lewish
11 years ago
Reply to  Brian

I know it is knee jerk, but the key phase is “would appear” and as many recent articles try to point out the small number of games a starting pitcher is multiplied by the much greater number of chances to affect the game in each game, so that point has little merit though I hate to say it, being a big Cutch fan.

Yirmiyahu
11 years ago
Reply to  Brian

The AL Cy Young, on the other hand, is easier to predict. Hernandez has a close but clear lead. They conveniently both have 34 starts, a difference of only 1/3rd inning pitched, they both won 9 more games than they lost, and they both pitch in the league with a DH. So that helps make comparisons easy.

Hernandez leads in ERA and park-adjusted ERA, runs-against and park-adjusted runs-against, xFIP and park-adjusted xFIP, SIERA, OPS-against and park-adjusted OPS-against, and wOBA-against and park-adjusted wOBA-against.

Kluber leads in FIP and park-adjusted FIP, and strikeouts.

Vic Romano
11 years ago
Reply to  Brian

The idea that you can dismiss his MVP-legitimacy by saying “only 27 starts” is laughable to me.
McCutchen had 648 Plate Appearances.
Kershaw has 749 Batters Faced.

PS – The Dodgers are also a playoff team, and are also still in the playoffs.

vivalajeter
11 years ago
Reply to  Vic Romano

I’ve seen that mentioned before, but wouldn’t the hitter have more control over each plate appearance than the pitcher does? In McCutchen’s 648 plate appearances, it was almost all on him. In Kershaw’s 749 batters faced, he had plenty of teammates to help him out.

If they were roughly equal, then it seems that a starting pitcher should be the MVP every year. If Kershaw face that many batters in 27 starts, he’d be facing close to a thousand batters over a full season and no hitter can compete with that.

Brian
11 years ago
Reply to  Vic Romano

I am not dismissing his MVP-legitimacy. I think he’s a worthy candidate.

But for what it’s worth, I hate the PA vs. BF analysis. It would be valid if McCutchen was a DH, but he’s not. Cutch has 648 plate appearances and 1286 innings in centerfield.

Cutch didn’t grade out positively on defense this year but I think he’s about scratch in CF. But the batters faced verusus PA argument I find to be absurd on it’s face.

Brian
11 years ago
Reply to  Vic Romano

Yeah, also what @vivalajeter said.

Vic Romano
11 years ago
Reply to  Vic Romano

I’m not saying they are exactly equal….but there’s certainly more to it than reducing his contributions to only 27 games. Pitchers may not appear in as many box scores as position players, but they have a greater impact the games that they do appear in.

And I’d be happy to see pitchers win the MVP more often than they do. The idea that it’s an award solely for hitters is absurd. That’s what the Hank Aaron award is, it’s even named after a former player, just like the Cy Young.

Vic Romano
11 years ago
Reply to  Vic Romano

I find the “he’s a pitcher” argument to be even more facially-absurd.

Brian
11 years ago
Reply to  Vic Romano

Again, @Vic, I don’t know why you seem to be taking the position that Kershaw is being dismissed by me. He’s not.

I am merely responding to the statement in the article that the author believes Kershaw to be an NL MVP lock. He’s also not that.

Yirmiyahu
11 years ago
Reply to  Vic Romano

We’re also mixing up who-should-win arguments with who-will-win arguments. My analysis of the NL MVP was supposed to be entirely of the who-WILL-win variety. And voters quite frequently believe that pitchers aren’t eligible.

I’d vote for Kershaw.

Vic Romano
11 years ago
Reply to  Vic Romano

The statement that Kershaw is a lock for the MVP appears nowhere in the article.

Beyond that, you seem to be clearly making the argument against Kershaw, based solely on him being a pitcher. That is what I’m responding to.

Brian
11 years ago
Reply to  Vic Romano

First and second sentences of this article about the AL Cy Young:

“Award season is upon us, and as far as the biggest pieces of individual hardware go, there will be relatively little debate this season. Clayton Kershaw would appear to be poised to sweep the NL Cy Young and MVP awards”

Unless you’re focused on the work “lock”, which would make you a real pedant.

Vic Romano
11 years ago
Reply to  Vic Romano

There is a significant difference between the author saying that Kershaw “appears to be poised” and you claiming that the author “believes Kershaw is a lock”.

Nothing pedantic about it. At least, not any more so than your suggestion that the MVP shouldn’t go to Kershaw because he’s a pitcher….

Luke
11 years ago
Reply to  Vic Romano

Cutch had 648 PAs, PLUS he was involved in a bunch of plays in the field. If you’re going to make it about number of PAs, you have to add in the PAs affected by Cutch in the field.

BipMember since 2016
11 years ago
Reply to  Vic Romano

That the Dodgers are still in the playoffs is irrelevant because ballots are due immediately after the regular season. Otherwise the MVP would always come from the pennant winners.

Vic Romano
11 years ago
Reply to  Vic Romano

@Luke – No, you don’t.

@Bip – The original comment included this phrase…”Kershaw is a God among men but has only made 27 starts, is a pitcher, and only has a 0.4 WAR lead over the popular position player on a playoff team.” The point of my comment was to say that trying to claim credit for Cutch being on a playoff team is meaningless since Kershaw has exactly the same credit.

I’m just tired of people using the “he’s just a pitcher” argument to disqualify or marginalize a player in the MVP voting. I find absolutely no merit to it.

Jonathan Levi-Minzi
11 years ago
Reply to  Vic Romano

@vivalajeter I think a pitcher should get some credit for the batters faced being consecutive times in each inning (probably 3-4ish for Kershaw), about 7-8 one after the other.

Hurtlockertwo
11 years ago
Reply to  Brian

Agreed, Kershaw is not a lock on the NL MVP. I also don’t think Trout is a lock on AL MVP. If he wins the real irony is he will win because he led the AL in RBI’s, which will make the WAR lovers heads explode.

Cool Lester Smooth
11 years ago
Reply to  Hurtlockertwo

Trout is pretty clearly the class of the field in the AL, even if you do believe that he was less valuable than Derek Jeter this year defensively, despite his stellar Inside-Edge data.

He’s the best hitter in the AL, and he plays a top defensive position well.

He is a lock. No one else is close.

BipMember since 2016
11 years ago

The amount of support for Victor Martinez in the comments of most articles about award picks might astound you then. “A player hitting .290 cannot be the MVP” I have been informed from multiple independent sources. Never underestimate the “only hitting stats matter” section of the population. The BBWAA are somewhere between that crowd and the fangraphs crowd.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
11 years ago

Martinez is a DH. The BBWAA is even more adamantly “No DH deserves the MVP” than Fangraphs is.

No DH has ever won an MVP.

drewcorbMember since 2020
11 years ago
Reply to  Hurtlockertwo

I don’t think his lead in RBIs is what will make Trout the MVP. A lot of people, even non-sabermetically inclined people, have been touting him as the MVP of each of the past 3 seasons. This year, there’s not nearly the competition for him that he had the past two years.

LG
11 years ago
Reply to  Brian

National baseball media seems pretty set on Kerhsaw being NL MVP, which is hardly an outlandish notion

Kings
11 years ago
Reply to  Brian

I don’t believe mentioning that Kershaw is “poised” is an incriminating remark, as it is strictly opinionated. I think he is poised, as I think he would finish top five in NL MVP. That makes Stanton also poised, and McCutchen, and probably Posey.
Would you have the same reaction if the author had said Trout was likely to win his first MVP? Neither is true or false yet. Adam Jones and Nelson Cruz looked very reliable for a banged up, 96 win Orioles team (never thought I’d say that for Cruz) and realistically, could the Orioles have been even a thought without one of those two?

matt w
11 years ago
Reply to  Kings

I think the key phrase is “relatively little debate.” Even if “poised” by itself means “is one of the favorites,” saying that there’s relatively little debate around the top awards suggests that Kershaw is the odds-on favorite. Otherwise there would be debates for two of the four top awards, and that seems about normal.

jon
11 years ago

While this race is essentially a toss up I’ll go to other intangible factors to decide the coin-flip:

* Felix faltered down the stretch, getting rocked in a key game as Seattle slipped from the playoff picture in the last two weeks.

* Kluber dominated down the stretch as his team was fighting for a spot and did literally everything possible for his team to get there. If you subtract off Kluber’s pretty bad first few starts, his ratios look even more impressive.

* Kluber with the higher wins and K’s, Felix with the better overall ERA. That’s a 2-1 favor in traditional markers.

I’ll still pick Kluber, because he wins on these “coin-toss” deciders in my book

vivalajeter
11 years ago
Reply to  jon

I can see why someone would give bonus points for dominating down the stretch when your team is fighting for a spot, but I can’t see why any voter would subtract off a pitcher’s pretty bad first few starts. They happened. And if he pitched better in those starts, maybe they would have had a better shot at the playoffs.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
11 years ago
Reply to  vivalajeter

That would be an argument for MVP, though, not the Cy Young.

BipMember since 2016
11 years ago

Cy Young, like all awards, are impacted by narrative, and stretch performance is one the biggest contributors to that. Not as much as for MVP, but still matters.

Eric
11 years ago
Reply to  jon

To say that Felix “faltered” down the stretch is a bit much. He had the one poor showing in Toronto, but otherwise was phenomenal in September. Kluber also had a poor start in September in Detroit where lasted less than three innings and gave up three home runs. I’d say their September performances were both excellent, with each guy having one poor game as an outlier.

KCDaveInLA
11 years ago
Reply to  jon

I agree with you on much of this, jon. I was ready to hand the Cy to Felix, but that performance in Toronto, coming at the worst possible time, is pretty hard to ignore. Still though, spread out through the whole season, and given that Kluber feasted on weaker teams down the stretch, I think Felix still deserves it.

HutchMember since 2022
11 years ago
Reply to  jon

A loss in April hurts a team as much as a loss in September. This is caveman baseball analysis.

Long live the King.

Logan DavisMember since 2017
11 years ago
Reply to  jon

1) What you’re saying doesn’t match the actual numbers.

Mariners’ record in Sept. Felix starts: 4-2*
Indians’ record in Sept. Kluber starts: 5-1
*includes Fernando Rodney blown save

Felix September ERA: 1.66
Kluber September ERA: 2.09

If you decide to add back in Felix’s error, his ERA jumps to a whopping 2.61. Way to falter, Felix. Sure, he blew a start in a big game near the end of the season, but anyone remember Kluber’s September 1 implosion against Detroit?

2) How coincidental. Felix also had a string of five bad starts near the beginning of the year, when he had the flu. If you take those starts out…

Non-flu Felix: 1.86 ERA, 10.07 K/9, 1.64 BB/9, 0.66 HR/9

3) This tiebreaker is very silly. If you’re writing from your own point of view, you should know better than to do things like only care about record/K/ERA, and you should know better than to weight them equally. If you’re writing based on what the national writers are going to do, you should also be considering the name value factor.

LG
11 years ago
Reply to  Logan Davis

5 starts with the Flu? What kind of super-resistant flu was this?

Yirmiyahu
11 years ago
Reply to  LG

A guy pitches for a month with ebola, survives, and now you’re criticizing him for it?

Logan DavisMember since 2017
11 years ago
Reply to  LG

Have the flu, lose weight, put back on weight. The actual flu was just the first couple.

Patrick
11 years ago
Reply to  LG

No he pitches with the flu then had to recover from it. Easily a month-long process. Have you ever had the flu? The feeling of weakness afterwards is noticeable AND he is trying to compete with professional athletes. Good luck.

vivalajeter
11 years ago

I’m not so willing to strip out sequencing. In a more extreme example, Pitcher 1 gives up a hit per inning (no more, and no less). He most likely pitches a shutout. Pitcher 2 gives up 9 hits in the first 3 innings, and no hits in the last 6. He gives up several runs. I’m not willing to suggest that they pitched equally well, and Pitcher 1 just got lucky with sequencing so we should treat both pitchers equally.

I can certainly see the value in trying to strip out impacts of stadium and defense, and potentially strength of competition if one pitcher happened to face much better teams than the other, because that’s all out of the hands of the pitcher. If a pitcher is able to get out of jams though, I’m not ready to strip that out, regardless of whether it’s luck or skill.

tz
11 years ago
Reply to  vivalajeter

If nothing else, the ability to pitch effectively from both the windup and the stretch should play into this. If a guy’s fastball becomes way more hittable when he’s pitching from the stretch, that’s a negative to his skill in my book.

John Havok
11 years ago
Reply to  vivalajeter

Sure but your example is extreme. The guy who gaev up 9 hits in the first three innings is also not likely to go 9 innings.

A better example would be 2 pitchers who both give up a single, walk, HR, groundout and 2 K’s in say 1 inning each.

Except sequencing for pitcher A goes: solo HR, single, groundout with no advance, double that doesnt score the runner from first K, walk, K.

Pitcher B goes walk, single, K, double that scores both runners, K, 2 run HR, groundout.

Pitcher B got rocked giving up 4 earned runs, pitcher A give up 1 earned run. Neither pitcher pitched well, but one gets credit for stranding runners and allowing the HR first, the other gets shellacked by allowing the HR last and no stranded runners.

This is clearly an irrelevant sample size, but it illustrates why sequencing can usually be thrown out of an arguement in comparing two very similar pitchers.

vivalajeter
11 years ago
Reply to  John Havok

I agree that your example is better, since it’s not nearly as extreme and is more likely to happen. But even in your example, I wouldn’t say they pitched equally well and they’re equally on par for an award (not that you’d get an award for that performance). Yeah, Pitcher A stranded the bases loaded – but I don’t think that needs to be stripped out of things the way defense and ballpark are.

If you give up the same number of baserunners as every other pitcher over the course of the season but strand more runners than everybody else, good job! You deserve kudos for that! Now if it’s a matter of Pitcher A’s relief pitchers bailing him out consistently while Pitcher B’s relief pitchers give up a ton of inherited runs, then that’s different. But if Pitcher A consistently puts out his own fires, I’m not going to treat him as if he was a league average firefighter.

Jack Glasscock's Cup
11 years ago

I would vote based on the non-political ER totals. Add 4 for Felix and subtract three (against the Tigers) for Kluber. When you do that, Felix has 1 fewer ER than Kluber with 1/3 more innings pitched. When taking into account their respective defenses, particularly the poor poor poor Cleveland outfield for a guy that gives up more flyballs, and strikeouts, I’d give my vote to Kluber.

Stuck in a slump
11 years ago

I think you may be discounting just how awful the Indians defense was this year. By DEF, the Mariners rank 13th, the Indians 29th. By UZR/150 The Mariners come in at 22 with a -1.7, the Indians come in at 29th again with a -9.7. By DRS the Mariners came in at 19 with -11, the Indians come in 30th with -75! And if you’re going to discount the Indians defense by saying that Kluber was able to mitigate most of that damage and getting out of jams, then you need to be giving Kluber a pretty hefty boost.

IMO, Kluber is more deserving considering that Safeco is a much friendly park and can mask mistakes better than Progressive and the defenses weren’t any where near close with the Indians ranking 349th out of the 360 team seasons for DRS, 376/390 in DEF score since 2002, and 381/390 by UZR/150 since 2002. That’s pretty epic.

AC
11 years ago

You didn’t read the article, did you?

Stuck in a slump
11 years ago
Reply to  AC

Actually I did, and it noted the bad defense and brushed it aside with basically ‘well, he gets himself out of jams, so the defense didn’t actually hurt him that much’, which is more reason to give him credit for pitching well in front of a god awful defense.

matt_shu
11 years ago

Just one question. Why FIP and xFIP uses “IP” as one of its parameter? Isn’t IP (very) defense dependent? As Indians defense is pretty bad, so these two stats would systematically (way) overrate Kluber? Park adjusted SIERA (which uses K/PA and BB/PA) will give Hernandez a .12 advantage.

Robert Hombre
11 years ago
Reply to  matt_shu

The effect is minimal; moreover, if you replaced a TBF-based IP substitute in FIP the denominator, it would not only improve Felix’s numbers, it would also improve Kluber’s as well.

FIP adds two terms together: the Variable Term and the Constant Term. The constant term, typically 3.1~3.2, changes year-to-year to bring ERA in line with the FIP variable term. So the term we’ll be looking at is the variable term.

The variable term’s numerator is (13*HR+3*HBP+3*BB-2*K)/IP. Now what you *could* do is base the denominator on a different term: total batters faced. This, if I’m understanding you correctly, would eliminate the defense-influenced IP variation.

It’s a reasonable point, and it could be implemented pretty easily by the following method. Instead of having a singular term in the denominator (pitcher IP), have two terms in the denominator: pitcher TBF and leaguewide batters-per-inning ratio. If you divide TBF by that ratio (4.217 TBF/IP), then you’re left with regressed IP – the units even come out the same! IP is the numerator and defense is removed! It’s ideal, because it effectively deals with K%, BB%, and HR% rather than K/9, etc.

The difficulty comes with the fact that the difference is almost non-existent. If we run this through, we have the following numbers:

Felix FIP
Normal: 2.56
Regressed: 2.51

Kluber FIP
Normal: 2.35
Regressed: 2.31

The reason both improve (or, more precisely, move further away from the FIP constant) is because both of them have a TBF/IP lower than league average. By decreasing their ‘regressed’ IP, their denominators decrease and the magnitude of each of their variable terms become larger (in this case, more negative), so their FIPs go down. Felix’s TBF/IP is lower, so his decreases more.

So dealing with FIP as per-batter-faced rather than per-inning does make a difference, but that difference is not vast and contains zero multitudes.

Captain Tenneal
11 years ago
Reply to  Robert Hombre

I did something like this for a project, but to further strip defense from the equation I assumed league-average BABIP for all and recalculated how many hits and TBF they would have then. Still likely an insignificant difference.

matt_shu
11 years ago
Reply to  Robert Hombre

Thanks, I recalculated the numbers, and you’re right. It’s not significant in Hernandez/Kluber debate (less than 0.01 difference). Still strange that FIP/xFIP use IP through. It’s just plain wrong.

Robert Hombre
11 years ago
Reply to  matt_shu

Simplicity.

The advantage of FIP is that it has an advantage of using four extremely common stats – IP, K, BB, HR – plus one constant, which for memory purposes is typically near the value of pi. FIP’s advantage is that you can calculate it on the back of a napkin if you memorize One constant. For the marginal improvement that TBF makes, it sacrifices the simplicity that makes FIP unique, as it adds a second constant, an additional division, and replaces the extremely-accessible IP with TBF, which is not always included in box scores (I think). It adds several layers of complexity for a marginal improvement that matters in terms of theoretical defense-independence but makes a notable difference for *very* few players.

For xFIP, the simplicity rationale is eliminated, but because you’re eliminating HR/FB extremeness, it makes *even less* of a difference.

That is the state of affairs as they stand now. Draw whatever conclusions you like thence.

matt_shu
11 years ago
Reply to  matt_shu

I think BF is as easy to get as IP? Right? Being mathematically and logically right is much more important, right?
For pretty much the same reason, I cannot understand the love for ERA as the defense-dependent pitching stat. Should use RA, right?

Robert Hombre
11 years ago
Reply to  matt_shu

BF is not universally included in box scores. IP is. And the second constant is almost certainly not included in box scores.

Tango recognized this issue; given that Tango’s fucking smart, this is not unexpected. But he regarded theoretical perfection as less important for the proliferation of the stat than accessibility.

It gets you 98% of the way there. It makes a difference for very few pitchers, and for the pitchers for whom it does make a difference, said difference is small.

It’s a theoretical limitation, absolutely. But it’s not the only theoretical limitation. I recognize what you concern is, since I had that perspective myself only a few months ago. It’s not wrong, certainly. But at the same, are strikeouts truly fielding-independent? They rely on catcher framing, after all, and catcher framing is defense. Home runs can be reclaimed, and so are not universally defense-independent. Inside-the-park HRs count toward FIP.

For true theoretical perfection, you need to add not only the two additional layers of complexity you propose, but a great many other ways to remove defense from HRs and Ks. If it were the last step toward being perfectly defense-independent, then it’d be more of a debate. But there are a litany of other restraining factors.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
11 years ago
Reply to  matt_shu

SIERA does not evaluate performance. Period. It’s what people who don’t know what FIP is think FIP is.

matt_shu
11 years ago

Doesn’t SIERA have 2 versions, one for evaluation and one for projection? (And I assumes the one on fangraphs player page is for evaluation?)

matt_shu
11 years ago

And I don’t know what FIP is, (I mean const+(13*HR+3*BB-2*K)/IP), this formula doesn’t have much logic. Should be const+(13*HR+3*BB-2*K)/BF*const2, or use IP adjusted by BABIP

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
11 years ago
Reply to  matt_shu

IP is a measure of performance.

Kazinski
11 years ago

Hernandez led the AL in SIERA, xFIP, tERA, WHIP, RA9-WAR.

Kluber led in FIP (and FIP-WAR) and SO.

Felix’s OPS against was .546, Kluber’s was .624. If you set Kershaw as the gold standard Kershaw’s OPS against non-pitchers was .541 which is virtually identical with Felix’s.

Kazinski
11 years ago
Reply to  Kazinski

The other reason I would give it to Felix over Kluber is body of work. A Cy-Young award doesn’t really just denote a single season’s body of work, like say a BA title or an RBI title. Because Cy-Young Award winner stays with a player their entire career, or at least until they Zito, then having a bias toward a player that comes out of no where to post a huge season leaves open the possibility for a fluke exceeding their true talent level.

Felix and Kluber are exactly the same age, 28y 5m. Felix has pitched 2060 innings with a 3.07/3.15/3.14 ERA/FIP/xFIP. Kluber has pitched 450IP with a 3.34/2.95/2.97 line, over half his MLB innings pitched were this season. I actually think Felix deserves to win on his numbers from this season alone, but if you think its a virtual tie then the tiebreaker should be their respective body of work.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
11 years ago
Reply to  Kazinski

Kluber also lead the AL in rWAR, which at least includes some adjustment for the shitty, shitty defense he was dealing with.

jdbolickMember since 2016
11 years ago

I’m surprised that no one has mentioned that Felix Hernandez faced significantly better lineups than Kluber, having pitched a third of his total innings against the 1st and 4th best run scoring teams in the major leagues. Detroit was obviously 2nd best, but they only accounted for 10.7% of Kluber’s innings. Although Corey is a better story and I’d be happy for him to win, Felix is arguably more deserving.

Brian
11 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

Wow. Lost in all this talk about Cleveland’s defense and Safeco’s dimensions … I hadn’t even considered this.

I know we have OPS against for pitchers, and we can probably calculate the over OPS of batters faced by the pitchers … is there an OPS+ or other figure that can be calculated from those two?

For instance, (we know this isn’t true) but let’s say Felix and Kluber both allowed 600 OPS against … would it be possible to calculate the OPS of the hitters they faced, and create an OPS+ or OPS- figure calculating the difference from expected?

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
11 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

Yeah, Felix’s opponents averaged .2 RA9 more than Kluber’s did.

bookbook
11 years ago

A vote for either guy can truly be justified. I think Felix missed out on a bunch of easy eighth or ninth innings (and a start and two wins) because Lloyd was very cautious with his starters. He had, I think, a tiny bit better year.

Because baseball hates seeing the same guy get an award ten years in a row, there may be a bit of extra weight thrown in the voting towards the “underdog”. Kluber may just win this thing.

Kazinski
11 years ago
Reply to  bookbook

Maybe, but Felix has only won the Cy-Young once before, not 10 years in a row.

If you look at the AL for the last 10 years, here are the top 10 pitchers: Maybe Felix and Verlander should have at least 2 Cy Youngs apiece, but they don’t:

fWAR RA9-WAR
Justin Verlander 47.3 43.9
Felix Hernandez 47.2 50.0
CC Sabathia 44.1 40.3
Jon Lester 35.4 35.9
John Lackey 33.0 30.3
Mark Buehrle 32.1 35.1
Jered Weaver 31.7 41.4
James Shields 31.6 32.7
Roy Halladay 29.0 33.8
Josh Beckett 25.7 23.2

lewish
11 years ago

All I care is that Felix struck out 7 of 9 of the first batters he faced in his last game and dominated the rest of the way until it was clear it wouldn’t matter…I love Felix any day he will pitch!

KluberForCy
11 years ago

LD% is not a pitcher skill. It takes years to stabilize.

pft
11 years ago
Reply to  KluberForCy

A lot of the variation is the subjective nature of what is a LD by the interns who make that call (which change for Y2Y and park to park) and also of a pitchers command in the strike zone. Most good pitchers are within +/5-10% of their true talent

A better measure might be speed off the bat, but we dont have access to that

Brian
11 years ago

“Kluber’s subpar defense did hurt him, but his ability to work out of jams prevented it from negatively impacting his ERA.” No, his defense negatively impacted his ERA, and his ability to work out of jams positively impacted his ERA. He deserves credit for working out of jams, and that doesn’t at all explain away the impact of pitching in front of baseball’s worst defense.

pft
11 years ago

King Felix is more of a sure thing for Cy Young than Clayton Kershaw for MVP.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
11 years ago
Reply to  pft

…no.

John
11 years ago

Give Corey Kluber credit. He had a breakout year and should be congratulated.
But King Felix had a year for the history books…lowest ERA and WHIP since 2000, third best on base percentage in 41 years, broke the major league record of 16 straight starts (almost 3 months) of giving up only 2 runs or lower in at least 7 innings, 13 no-decisions despite an ERA of 1.88.
If it weren’t for one bad inning a couple of weeks ago in Toronto we wouldn’t be having this debate.
King Felix wins his second Cy Young Award.

chuckb
11 years ago
Reply to  John

ERA and WHIP? Did I make a wrong turn and end up at the Bleacher Report?

Thisismeanarticle
11 years ago

This article sucks.
Let’s see Kluber’s April stats
His LD% 20.2% and FIP 2.84, while his babip .367 and ERA 4.14.
The writer might say it is small sample sized. But his data also has sss problem.
What would happen if babip-king pitch near 3rd baseman Santana instead of Kyle Seager.

Umpires Love Felix + Zunino
11 years ago

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/sortable/index.php?cid=1667686

Corey Kluber’s catchers:
Yan Gomes +1.2
George Kottaras -0.6
Roberto Perez -0.2
Total: 0.4

Felix Hernandez’s catchers:
Mike Zunino 7.9
Jesus Sucre 0.4
Total: 8.3

So Felix got approximately 8 runs advantage extra simply based on catcher framing.

Matthew
11 years ago

Another factor is the batting avg. against the pitcher. I’ve seen a lot of posts and blogs that give Kluber a leg up because he allows more fly balls – which one post called “guaranteed outs” (which is total crap in my book – especially if it’s a sac fly). But if you look at the batting avg. for the two pitchers its:

Felix: .200
Kluber:.233

That’s just another thing that I think adds to Felix’s lead. Felix had less Runs, Earned Runs, walks and WAY less hits. He pitched in a MUCH tougher division that almost sent three teams to the playoffs and included the top AL team. Kluber had a great year – Just like Felix did in 2009. Felix had a better year – Just like Greinke did in 2009. Kluber should win a CY Young – just not this year.

BegyourPardon
11 years ago
Reply to  Matthew

Here is team WRC+
Laa 110 oak 101 hou 96 Tex 89
det 111 Min 101 CWS 96 KC 94
Can you say AL west is much tougher division again?

Matthew
11 years ago
Reply to  BegyourPardon

In WHAT possible work are the A’s and Twins equal???? And the Angels had the best record in baseball for a reason. Absolutely – the AL West is a tougher division. Obviously WRC+ is outdated.

Babe Ruth
11 years ago
Reply to  Matthew

The Twins beat the A’s in OBP and SLG this season, and the A’s outscored the Twins by 14 runs this year. Dunno how exactly wRC+ correlates to runs, but over a full season, I wouldn’t call the Twins offense to be too terribly unequal to the A’s.

Matthew
11 years ago
Reply to  BegyourPardon

In WHAT possible world are the A’s and Twins equal???? And the Angels had the best record in baseball for a reason. Absolutely – the AL West is a tougher division. Obviously WRC+ is outdated.

Umpires Love Felix + Zunino
11 years ago
Reply to  Matthew

Yeah, wRC+ is outdated.

Proposed Solution: Use Batting Average.

You trolls are too funny.