The Astros Make Their Big Splash
A month ago, when the dust settled on the July 31st trade deadline, the Astros had added just left-hander Francisco Liriano, whose struggles were one of the main reasons the Blue Jays failed to contend in 2017. It was an underwhelming upgrade for a team headed for the postseason, and the fact that the team thought they had a deal for Zach Britton was little solace to disappointed fans and players who hoped for more reinforcements.
Well, it took a month, but reinforcements are here, and this particular reinforcement throws really hard.
As Jeff noted in the InstaGraphs post last night, the Astros landed Justin Verlander from the Detroit Tigers for three interesting prospects, who we’ll get to in a minute. For the Tigers to land that kind of return, they had to pay down Verlander’s salary, and the Tigers are sending $8 million per year for each of the next two seasons to facilitate the trade, which means they’ll be paying him 2/$40M after this year. Three weeks ago, when assessing Verlander’s trade value, I wrote this.
So let’s say Verlander would get something like 2/$40M this winter if constrained to only accepting a two year deal. Maybe it’s $35M, maybe it’s $45M, but I think something in that range is probably about right. Since he’s due $56 million over those years, you’d be looking at the Tigers eating about $16 million to get the contract down near market value, or about the point at which they could trade him for a minimal return.
But there’s also the remainder of his contract this year to consider. He’s due about $8 million through the rest of 2017, and while he’s pitched well of late, most teams don’t have $8 million left in their budgets this year. If the Tigers want to move him for a real return, they probably have to pick up a good chunk of that money too; guys who were traded without money to offset their current prices didn’t fetch much, so let’s round that $16 million up to $20 million just to help cover some of the in-season costs.
Well, I got the $16 million part right. But this is clearly not a “minimal return”, as the Tigers extracted a far better package than I expected they’d get while also unloading this much salary. Part of the disconnect between my expectations and what Houston paid to land Verlander comes in what the man has done since I wrote that piece.
| Games | Innings | Hits | Walks | Strikeouts | ERA- | FIP- | xFIP- |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 5 | 35 | 20 | 7 | 40 | 52 | 84 | 73 |
After a pretty mediocre first half, Verlander has been much better lately; as Jeff showed, the recent vintage looks a lot like the guy Detroit had last year, when he was a +5 WAR pitcher. In August, Verlander has been lights out, running a 31% strikeout rate against a 4% walk rate. Lately, he’s looked like a guy you pay a premium to have in your rotation in October.
But just like Verlander got better, the Astros got more desperate. They went 11-17 in August. Dallas Keuchel has looked just okay since returning from the DL. Lance McCullers hasn’t returned from the DL yet, in part because he walked five guys in three innings in his first rehab stint, and he’s struck out just three of the 35 batters he’s faced in his two minor league tune-ups. The rotation is currently being carried by Charlie Morton and Brad Peacock, so, yeah, there was more reason to pay for Verlander now than there was a month ago.
So pay they did. Eric will have his full thoughts up on these guys in a bit, but if you’re a Tigers fan, you have to be pretty happy with what is coming back here, even if you’re sad about trading Verlander.
Franklin Perez is the headliner here, as a 19-year-old RHP who is already getting outs in Double-A. He’s not getting the strikeouts you’d ideally like to see, but given his age, level, and stuff, he’s pretty clearly one of the best pitching prospects around. Eric ranked him #62 overall on his summer update, roughly equal to Willie Calhoun, who headlined the deal for Yu Darvish.
The Darvish deal, though, was effectively Calhoun and a couple of lottery tickets. But this isn’t a one player return for Detroit.
Daz Cameron, son of Mike Cameron, was the 37th pick in the 2015 draft, but only fell that far because of his bonus demand; he signed for $4 million, which slots him in right between the 5th and 6th spots in that draft. His bat hasn’t quite lived up to those lofty expectations yet, but as a CF with power and speed, he’s got a lot of upside if he hits, and he’s run a 127 wRC+ this year, so no one should give up on the bat yet. If you want a lottery ticket as a secondary piece, it’s hard to do better than a guy considered a top-10 draft talent two years ago who is still just 20-years-old and looks to be on the upswing.
And the third guy in this deal is the one that KATOH likes most of all. Jake Rogers was a third round pick last year as a catcher with serious defensive skills, and now all he’s done is hit pretty well as professional, showing patience and power with reasonable strikeout rates. Eric said he “the best defensive catching prospect I’ve ever seen in person” in his pre-season write-up, and if he’s really a plus defender behind the plate, KATOH’s #62 overall midseason ranking might not be so crazy.
So the Tigers get a live-armed teenager already in Double-A, a toolsy 20-year-old center fielder who hit well this year, and a potentially elite defensive catcher who is showing more life in his bat than was expected. This trio might not have the prospect ranking pedigree of the guys the Yankees gave up for Sonny Gray, but I think you could make an argument for this package not being that different from the one Oakland got for their ace. This kind of return more than justifies Al Avila’s decision to hold Verlander at the deadline and wait for a better offer.
Given that Verlander isn’t just around for 2017, this isn’t a pure win-this-year move, but there’s no question the Astros paid a hefty price to upgrade right now because they were concerned about what they could throw in the postseason. With Verlander clearly in the #1 spot, the team has plenty of options now.
Unless Keuchel gets bombed again in September, you have to imagine he’s getting the ball in Game 2, but after that, the Astros can basically abandon the idea of a “starting pitcher”. With Collin McHugh, Charlie Morton, Brad Peacock, and Lance McCullers (if he proves healthy), the Astros could effectively throw tandem-starters in Games 3 and 4 of each postseason series, only asking each guy to go 2-3 innings before giving way to a fresh arm. Toss in starter-turned-quality-setup-guy Joe Musgrove and Chris Devenski, and the Astros could have six multi-inning capable arms to mix and match with.
Having Verlander at the top spot gives the team a significantly better chance to save their bullpen for the other starts, and that impact could be felt by other teams when they realize they might not get to see any of the Astros non-Verlander pitchers a third time through the order in any postseason game. It would have been a lot harder to pull that kind of strategy off with a question mark in the first spot, but with Verlander around, the Astros can do some pretty interesting things with their pitching staff next month.
With the American League wide open, the Astros just put themselves back in the driver’s seat for a World Series position. Verlander doesn’t guarantee anything, and getting through the postseason still requires a lot of luck, but the organization just gave the team a much better shot at advancing through the tournament than they had yesterday. It came at a steep price, and this is the kind of deal that could turn out to be a huge win for Detroit — especially if first-half Verlander re-emerges at any point in the near future — but the Astros decided they weren’t going to be left wondering whether they should have pushed harder at a second straight trade deadline.
This time, they paid the price to get a lot better. I don’t know that I’d have given up those three guys for an aging pitcher who will still cost $20 million per year even with the subsidy, but given what the city of Houston is going through, I hope it pays off for the Astros in October. Houston could use some good news. Justin Verlander on the mound in the postseason can be pretty good news.
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
It is a high price but you always have to consider window of opportunity, especially if you consider that the astros might not be able to resign those young stars.
If the astros win it probably is in the next 3 years or so and even if the trade has negative surplus value a win for the astros in 2018 might be a lot more valuable than a win in 2022 when the astros might do another rebuild.
Still a risk with verlanders age of course but after failing to make a move at the deadline luhnow had not many more alternatives and 2017 might be the best shots they will ever get.
I disagree. The Astros have not committed a long term contract to anyone yet.. I personally believe this is on purpose, because they know that when its time to give the years to Altuve and Correa… no albatross contract will be in the way. They even front loaded Yuli’s contract significantly, because the payroll is so low this year. Beltran is being paid 16 million on a one year deal right now. Verlanders contract will almost equal his money on the books, after he is gone next season.
This is also why they value prospects, more than most teams. They still have the deepest system in baseball, and an emerging elite front of the rotation starter in Whitley who probably will pitch for them in 2018. But their staff is actually under team control for a very long time, at a good price.
The Astros run their franchise like a business. Their goal is to sustain. Winning the world series is a crapshoot. Your best shot is to put a very good team in contention over a long span. There should be no such thing as a window.
While I agree with most in this post, Astros are about increasing their chances of winning the WS. Usually, that means they are going to favor prospects and diversifying WAR over more seasons as making playoffs in more seasons usually helps WS odds more than consolidating talent into one season. With McCullers not 100%, I’m guessing Astros believe Verlander increases WS odds in next three years more than the three prospects plus the opportunity cost based on money differences.
I doubt Astros do this if McCullers was pitching well right now.
And there’s a pretty compelling reason for the Houston Astros to put their best foot forward this fall.
Actually if the astros compete until 2020 they have competed for 5 years. A 5 year window is pretty good if you don’t spend a ton. I see no indication that crane wants to spend big bucks, their tv deal isn’t the best.
Luhnow has done a full rebuild before and I don’t think he will hesitate to do it again, I don’t see him extending correa.
But now that is far I think they have at least 3 years left.
This is kind of a George Steinbrenner move–buy expensive high-profile older player for young talent in hopes of grasping a World Series. Sometimes it can work. But it’s a crapshoot.
No its a grab an ace to win now move, Steinbrenner didn’t really make too many of those.
I think I’ve heard this suggestion that a team can go with a pair of SPs to begin a playoff game, 2-3 IP each, before. It does sound like an intriguing suggestion, but has it ever actually happened, at least to the extent that one would assume that this would be a benefit of the Verlander trade?
I can’t remember it happening in cases where the two starters used in the game were proven, bona fide MLB starters, like say McCullers/Morton/Peacock/Fiers. If one of those guys starts a game and has a rough go, I wouldn’t be surprised to see a hook after 3 innings, but no manager will make the change after 3 if a skilled starter has it working. If the velo and command are there and the breaking stuff is working, they’re not going roll the dice that a second starter + 3-4 bullpen arms also have their best stuff that day.
While I get what you’re saying, how many times to fans lament that the manager left a pitcher in for too long? It’s the “3rd time thru the order” penalty thing, where a lot of pitchers lose effectiveness by a combination of getting tired and hitters getting their timing down after repeated attempts. It may take a courageous manager to make this kind of move, but I think it’s a great idea, and I’ve been saying for a while that MLB might end up heading in this direction during the regular season as well at some point. Especially if you have a lefty/righty combo where you can force your opponent to either deal with the poor splits or empty their bench by mid-game.
The TTO effect is real for sure. I definitely wouldn’t leave someone like Morton out past 5-6 innings in a playoff game. But if he looked good through 2-3 scoreless, I’d be inclined to try to get 2-3 more out of him, while not facing top hitters a third time. Given that he’s shown his ‘good stuff’ through 3, I’d trust him for innings 4-5 more than I’d trust that Peacock or Fiers also showed up at their best.
David, Maybe that is cause and effect. Watching how the Braves have handled young pitching talent over the past few years leads me to wonder is the reason these pitchers can’t get through the 6th because they are always pulled at the first sign of danger? It seems managers are playing the “odds” the 3rd time through and don’t give the starter the opportunity to get himself out of it. How will young pitchers learn to work through a high leverage situation if they are never given the chance? If it’s September and a playoff spot rides on it, that’s one thing, but a game in May for a non-contender should be about building a better pitcher, not playing the odds. John Smoltz discussed this same issue and said if he wasn’t given the chance to clean up his messes, who knows what type of career he would have had. Maybe the one thing that has changed that metric is today’s pitchers have been trained to throw 100% effort from pitch 1, where as 20-30 years ago the idea was to save up the 100% effort for high leverage situations.
Steep price in a vacuum. Astros probably could have gotten a better deal at July deadline, though they had less information at that time (were more focused on relievers). Astros are concerned more with WS% than regular season wins at the moment.
Despite the steep price, looks like deal makes sense from Astros perspective. Astros have more information than they did at July deadline and Verlander fits a spot that gives the Astros a nice boost to WS%. Doubt Astros can and would do this type of deal very often.
That said, it is a great deal for Detroit.
Avila played it very well. Stuck to his guns on getting some top level prospects for an icon. Maybe got lucky when Houston ran into so many pitching issues, but, he doesn’t get that chance if he deals JV in July.
Been lots of questions on JV’s value in comparison to others the last few months. Pretty clear that once they got the contract down to a reasonable amount, teams still consider him a top level pitcher. (Compare to Leake, who was traded for basically nothing for 3 yrs, $37M).
I agree. Avila’s gotten a lot of heat lately, but he did really well here.
Avila played it well and/or just lucked out with Houston’s SP struggles of late and Verlander’s recent resurgence.
“For the Tigers to land that kind of return, they had to pay down Verlander’s salary, and the Tigers are sending $8 million per year for each of the next two seasons to facilitate the trade, which means they’ll be paying him 2/$40M after this year.”
I’m having trouble understanding the financials here based on that sentence. Can someone please clarify?
Verlander’s contract has him making $56million in 2018-19 (which is guaranteed), which works out to be $28million each season. As part of the trade, the Tigers agreed to pay the Astros $8million per season. That leaves Houston on the hook for the remaining $20 million each of the next two years.
Bad pronoun use by Cameron (i.e. the “they’ll” is the “Astros will” despite the Tigers being the last plural noun). Astros will only be paying Verlander 40 million for next two seasons of Verlander instead of 56 as Detroit will pickup 16 million (8 in each season).
I kind of get where DC’s mindset is using “they” for Astros there. The subject of the whole article is the Astros, so with that context, he’s thinking of “they” as understood as “Astros” throughout. Note that he always says “Detroit” or “Tigers” elsewhere.
That said, I agree that the pronoun usage in that sentence is confusing. For someone very familiar with who is paying what already (someone like DC who follows baseball professionally), it makes sense, but for a general audience, it’s not obvious.
I blame Cistulli for not doing his job.
I agree this is a steep price, and I’ve been skeptical of the whole “Verlander is still an ace!” narrative that people keep repeating. But I like this deal for both teams anyway.
Perez and Rogers are the prizes here, although I didn’t realize how much Cameron improved this year. Dave does a good job of summarizing them up top, but Perez is a really impressive prospect. 19 year olds with multiple good pitches who are holding their own in AA is not easy. Cameron still strikes out too much but he’s doing a lot better now he has talent. And even if Rogers is only a league-average hitter, with that defense he can be special. This is a really, really good return. I know the Tigers fans here are going to be bothered by seeing Verlander go but realistically this is a great deal for them.
As for the Astros, they paid a really high price for a guy who is definitely not an ace. But if I’m an Astros fan, I also don’t really care. This team has had a great offense all year and even if Verlander is just a solid #3 you only get one shot at at a ring. They only gave up one tip-top prospect (Perez) in their huge stable of top-rung prospects (Tucker, Whitley, Fisher, Alvarez…) and it would have been very risky to go without another guy they could comfortably slot in their playoff rotation. When you have a real shot at a ring, it’s fine to give up good prospects, especially since he will probably be good pitcher next year too.
The one thing that would annoy me is why–if you were willing to give up this package for Verlander–you weren’t willing to pay up for Sonny Gray or Darvish. There’s some issues with trading within the division but the Astros aren’t that squeamish about it. Yeah, they got more desperate but anyone should have been able to see that having your whole rotation on the DL at the deadline was a problem. And Dave is right–giving up that many prospects for an aging pitcher who costs that much is not a great move in a vacuum.
Whatever. At some point you have to cash your chips in. The Astros are going for it. There was only one major upgrade available. Sometimes you overpay, and they might have misjudged things earlier, but this was still the right move for now.
On the Sonny Gray thing, it comes down to information. Astros didn’t know what their rotation would be like a month ago. If McHugh and Keuchel are still both on the DL and/or not effective, they likely don’t do this. If McCullers is healthy, they likely don’t do this. In addition, Astros likely need to add someone they wanted to keep and still have if they had to outbid other teams for Gray. On Darvish, I think Astros would have had to outbid the Dodgers by a lot as the Rangers aren’t as reasonable as Astros and A’s about intradivision trades.
Astros are usually very good about making moves so that they don’t get themselves in this situation.
I don’t think Verlander isn’t necessarily an ace. As Dave always says, last year gives us more info & can’t be discarded. For 2016/17, Verlander is 5th in all of MLB in SP WAR. Had a rough start to the year (really highlighted by 2 bad starts vs Cleveland), but, now 6 weeks of dominance, been very good since 6/1 really. He’s up to 14th in SP WAR now. If he’s a top 10-15 MLB SP, he’s an ace.
& yes, he’s older than Gray & Yu, but, Yu is a FA & a TJ guy & Gray had health issues in 2016. Verlander may be 34, but, he’s never had an arm injury & can still dial up to 97-98. I’m not sure that he’s not SAFER than either of those to guys for the next 2 years. I am starting to think he’s one of those guys that just has a freak arm & maybe the standard aging curve/injury worries don’t apply the same way they do to everyone else. Pitchers used to be good-great until they were 40 (or later), there is no reason to think he’ll be washed up at age 36.
Expecting a guy who is 34 who has switched between being a #3/#4 and a borderline #1 over the last 3.5 years to consistently be the latter is probably not a good bet. You can say the same things about Gray too, but Father Time is undefeated. Maybe Verlander is the exception, but probably not.
(Darvish is different. Pure rental, great pitcher)
While I wouldn’t consider Verlander to be an ace/No.1, I’d say his 2016 season was more than borderline No. 1. I doubt Father Time will affect Verlander’s ability that much more by the playoffs this year. While Verlander isn’t a pure rental, I’m pretty sure Astros are placing most of his value (~No. 2/ No.3) to them for this postseason understanding that he might be a 4th/5th starter in 2018/2019. Astros know they got themselves into a situation that they perceive they needed a SP (i.e. they paid more than offseason/pre-July deadline market value) and aren’t counting on Verlander defeating Father time after this year.
I actually think we agree mostly on this. The Astros screwed up, but this is the best move they could have made since then.
H
How can you say he was a borderline #1 in 2016? He should have been AL Cy Young last season except for 2 idiots that turned in their ballots before his last 2 starts. Was he Kershaw or Scherzer? No, but there is no doubt he was a top 5 pitcher last year and he is a top 20 pitcher this year.
If you’re running a FIP above 4 playing half your games in Comerica you’re not a Top 20 pitcher. He’s #38 in ERA-, amd #39 in FIP-, and #50 in SIERA (which is the best of the estimators anyway). That’s a clear #2 on the year, with some great stretches and some not-so-great ones.
In 2016 he was #13 in ERA-, #15 in FIP-, and #15 in SIERA. That’s a “staff ace”, not an “MLB ace”.
Being durable is important, but level of dominance is too.
Note to self: Telling Tigers fans that Verlander isn’t *that* good does not make you friends, even if true.
Gray will so vastly outperform Verlanders $/WAR over the same period that he should cost more, esspecially in the division.
This package wouldn’t beat what the Yankees paid for Sonny Gray, and the Astros get two more years out of Verlander than they would out of Darvish.
SadT, you say Verlander’s not an ace, and you seem to say that Gray or Darvish would have been a better pickup for Houston, all other things being equal. Are you saying that either Gray or Darvish *is* an ace? And if so, by what measures do they qualify, where JV falls short?
I know I’m not objective, and I can’t pretend to do a full cost-benefit analysis. But I think Houston got the guy who’s more likely to help them win a WS.
I think that Darvish would be cheaper in terms of prospects, Gray would be cheaper in terms of money (and I believe has more years of control), and that Gray is more likely to hold his value over the next few years than Verlander is over his. I don’t think any of them are an “MLB Ace” but those are rare.
Mostly, I just think that writing off bad stretches at the beginning of the season because someone is pitching well now but reaching back to last year for evidence that someone pitches well is motivated reasoning. It’s bad logic.
I don’t really care whether Verlander is an “ace” since the Astros just needed another guy who they can put in a playoff rotation and not worry. He’s good, and the price was high, but they needed him.
I’ll agree that there’s some “motivated reasoning” by those of us who still see JV as an ace. OTOH, every projection system uses a combination of past performances that gives greatest weight to the most recent performance.
This year, JV is tied for 18th in starters’ fWAR (min. 100 IP). He was 6th last year, and 5th for the two combined. bWAR rates him even higher. He’s had no injuries in that time (#2 in IP), and he’s pitched very well over the last 2 months.
Anyone can decide how many “aces” there are at any given time. But both ZiPS and Steamer project him top-10 in ROS WAR, and solidly above Darvish and Gray. So there’s some very good logic in calling him an ace right now.
I would say projection systems pay much more attention to historical performance than recent performance. That’s a feature more often than it’s a bug, but that still doesn’t mean it always makes sense.
I don’t think anyone is trying to “write off bad stretches”. but, you seem to think that a 60 inning bad stretch in the middle of 400 innings is the baseline for future performance.
If the 60 innings were the most recent innings or were accompanied by a loss in velocity, etc. than I would agree with you more. The fact he has now put together 3 solid months seems to indicate the bad stretch might have just been that..a bad stretch.
Why? Who knows? Could have been bad luck? Mechanics? whatever? It happens to everyone. Hell, Kershaw had a bad stretch this year. Does he get graded based solely on that, too? Not sayin JV is Kershaw, but, his track record the last couple years is pretty darn solid..even with the bad stretch.
Since turning 30, Verlander’s 2nd halves have been pretty amazing, including last season where he would have won the Cy Young if 2 voters didn’t vote before his last 2 starts and left him completely off their ballots. This is not forgiving his bad 1st halves, but it does give you an idea of the type of pitcher you’ll be getting for the end of the season and playoffs:
Stat totals for after All-Star games in 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017
67 Games Started
450 IP
463 SO
2.86 ERA
1.06 WHIP
Also, this should answer the question of “why didn’t the Mariners trade for Verlander?” Aside from the obvious statement that Rayder Asciano wasn’t going to get it done, the equivalent in that the Mariners system is something like Kyle Lewis, Vogelbach, and Braden Bishop.
Considering that this year is a long-shot anyway, at this price they’d be better off signing pitchers in the offseason rather than giving away most of the top of their system to pay market value for a pitcher now. The Mariners literally just needed an actual pitcher with positive value and are hoping for something to break right.
Verlander is definitely a better pitcher, but even though the Mariners are that desperate they don’t have the same resources as the Astros, and there’s no guarantee they even get to the playoffs or even past the play-in game while the Astros know they need someone to fill out their playoff rotation.
Anyone concerned about Verlander outside of Comerica? HR/FB is 16% on the road, HR/9 is about 1.6. The K rate is still high enough that he will be effective, but it seems that Comerica suppresses his batted ball numbers quite a bit.
He ran the reverse split (9.0% on the road, 12.2% at home) just last year. He’s moving to a tougher park, for sure, but there’s no real reason to think that he’ll struggle in Houston any more than the average pitcher would.
*
Seems an awful lot to give up for Verlander, especially since a potential playoff opponent seems to have always had some mysterious power over Verlander, even when he was really good
I get where you are coming from, but are we certain Verlander is their clear 1? Different sites have different stats, but it doesn’t seem like he is clear-cut better at this juncture of his career.
It’s definitely not clear. He was not good in 14 and 15 and he hasn’t had a good first halve since 2012. However, his 2nd halves since 2013 have been dominating. I would expect the same thing in 2018 and 2019. His fastball is now tracking at over 95 mph average and hitting 98-99 in late innings.
The more I look into it the more I think he is wrong. Verlander might be throwing better right now, but I think Keuchel is their 1.
I don’t think it matters that much who is #1 and #2 unless you’re in a wild card play-in game, which the Astros probably won’t be.
I can’t help but think that the devastation of Harvey also had an impact on this decision, whether it be compassion by ownership towards the residents/fans of Houston or the seizing of a newly created marketing opportunity to cement the franchise’s long-term status in the latter’s eyes.
I am surprised that Verlander made it through waivers. Why didn’t someone put in a claim? The Yankees, Twins, are two that I could think of that could actually use Verlander and take on his salary if the Tigers decided to let them have him.
They are revocable waivers. If the Yankees claimed him, the Tigers would pull him back and have a day or two to work out a Trade with the Tigers. And on top of that, Verlander has a no-trade clause and he could over rule it.
Yeah, except no one even bothered. It really didn’t make sense that no one claimed him then, especially since one of those teams turned around and dealt for him without getting *that* much of a break on his salary.
As a Cubs fan, I was hoping the Cubs would get Verlander by just taking the most of or the entire contract. I question whether considering a 2+ year deal at the same $/WAR/yr as a long term deal makes sense.
Avila played the situation well, and all the new facts/evidence since the non-waiver deadline came in on DET’s side.
As well, Luhnow was smart to ultimately pull the trigger on a deal that he and his FO surely thought was an overpay in pure baseball terms. But there was going to be anti-Luhnow shitshow in Houston if the Astros lost in the first round while Luhnow “hoarded” his prospects – rather than trading for the “playoff-tested ace” the Astros needed. Luhnow rightly saw some value in cutting off those hindsight-biased recriminations at the knees.
I don’t know, if you think you can win it all but you don’t have enough pitchers, I think it makes sense to overpay to get a good one. For better or worse the Astros don’t care about hindsight-based recriminations.
Who cares what you think pig fucker
Short term, it’s a move the Astros had to make. The next two years are obvious ???s and in order to keep his arm from falling off, Verlander will have to make adjustments. Pitch to contact is a 4 letter word, but his walk and home run suppression will have to improve, because the Ks are going to start going away.
The best comp I could find to him is Roy Halladay, who was trucking right along toward 250+ wins and the HoF when his arm fell off.
The disconnect between the people (like the commenters above) who think Justin Verlander will compete for a Cy Young at age 35/36 and who think he’s going to start going downhill fast (like you) is jarring. I think I’m more on your side of it but I think the expectations for him going forward are not uniform.
There’s obviously a wide range of possible outcomes for any pitcher at age 35/36, even one who’s been as durable as JV (and, unlike Halladay, never had an arm problem).
But he doesn’t have to contend for a CYA to make this a winning trade. He just has to help the Astros win their first WS.
It seems to me that Houston’s best window is from now to maybe 2020, when both Altuve and Springer will be 30. It took 3 years of tanking to build this talent core; this is year 3 of the payoff, but they haven’t reached the LCS yet. Their rotation isn’t young, it’s been mediocre for 3 months, and there was no clear help on the horizon. None of those prospects are likely to help much by 2020; one just reached AA, and the others haven’t yet. The time is now.
P.S. Halladay had one year left on contract when Philly got him for a package at least as good as what Houston gave up here. I’m sure no Philly fan regrets that deal.
No, I agree. He doesn’t have to be a Cy Young winner. He probably won’t. But he does have to be good enough. And he likely will be.
sadtrombone, are you aware that Justin Verlander finished 2nd in the Cy Young voting *last* year? I feel like you may not be aware of this crucial piece of information. I’m here to help.
Alright, that was a pretty good comeback. I suppose if he can compete for a Cy Young at 33, 35 isn’t that much of a stretch. I don’t think it’s that likely that he turns back the clock again, but it’s baseball and he’s not gone yet.
sadtrombone, you’re the one stubbornly sticking to an opinion despite compelling evidence arguing against it. Let it go, man.
There are a large range of outcomes. He doesn’t have to be a CYA candidate to be helpful to Houston. 210 innings of 3.70 ERA is a good #2/3 pitcher..not a CYA guy, but, pretty good & for $20M a year, that’s a good deal.
I guess the question is what evidence is there that he’s getting ready to fall off the cliff? (barring injury, which applies to all pitchers) Sure, he could be Roy Halladay or Cliff Lee, who were done quickly. He could be Randy Johnson or Steve Carlton or Nolan Ryan who kept it going as studs until their 40’s. He could be something in between & slowly lose velocity & performance over the next 4-5 years (which means he still is pretty useful the next 2 years..BTW, this is the category I fall in).
I just don’t see the “he’s turning 35 his arm/performance will automatically crater” argument as being persuasive when one looks at the history of the sport, esp. when combined with his record of health. In fact, I think going to a team that will be less likely to push him as hard due to a better bullpen &/or a better team that has a postseason berth virtually assured in a bad division might help him some.
I think we’re likely to see a slow and steady decline. He’ll still give value. He even comes close to living up to the contract everyone will be happy. They win a WS or even come close, no one will care.
But a Nolan Ryan type career sure would be fun, right? Just have him hang on for a dozen 4-WAR seasons after his peak, with an occasional year where he throws for 300 strikeouts? Yeah, I don’t think it’s likely either. He’ll probably fall off before 40.
Yeah, that would be something. Not likely, but, you never know.
BTW, I think the point about being on a better team that won’t push him so hard is worth a mention. Detroit HAD to push him because of a bad bullpen, tight division race in 2016, etc. Houston probably won’t have to do that so much unless something really goes awry for them. & really that 230-240 inning JV IS & SHOULD BE gone.
In fact, while we all focused on lack of offense (which was true) & 2 stupid TB writers (true, too), there was one other thing that likely cost him the 2016 CYA. 9 games where they pushed him past 7 innings. In those 9 games, he allowed 9 runs, 15 baserunners in 7 innings. Not blaming Ausmus, he HAD to push him because of Detroit’s bad BP, but, if you take those innings away, his ERA is well below 3 (2.78), WHIP well below 1 (0.965), he’s still top 4 in innings (220.66) & still leads in K’s (245) by a substantial margin..& probably wins the CYA.
Suggesting the article headline/title could have been thought through some more.
–
This is the weird thing about MLB vs. other sports: Massive talent shifts all throughout the playing season, and continuing big trades until very late in the season. Even huge financial roadblocks don’t look to be roadblocks in the MLB environment. The money’s there to do just about anything on most teams; its not like the Dodgers and Yankees are lording over all the later season trades.
It doesn’t seem like all the late season stuff is gonna slow down.
Does all the trading make the game better, and also vs. other spectator sports?
The future is now. This may be the best chance the Astros have for another 30 years. Nobody knows what the future holds or how prospects pan out. I an sure their fans are happy. The will to win means sometimes throwing out the need to bargain hunt or not overpay