The Brandon Webb That Wasn’t and Will Be

By means that remain unclear at the moment, the present author found himself browsing within the baseball-related pages of reddit.com over the holiday. For reasons that are also obscure, I followed a link from that site (courtesy user jedisloth) to a piece from The Arizona Republic’s sports section dated April 2009. There, I was reminded — on Christmas, a day intended to be full of sweetness and light — I was reminded of former Diamondbacks right-hander Brandon Webb and the stupid and dreadful injury that would ultimately end his career.

What one learns from the experience is not to go around clicking links haphazardly on a day supposedly reserved for joy. What else one learns — or what I, specifically, learned — is a lesson about Brandon Webb and scouting and context.

Webb’s was a career that, if it ended suddenly, also began with a sort of remarkable suddenness, too — at least in terms of Webb’s success relative to the expectations that preceded him. Having been selected in just the eighth round of the 2000 draft and remaining absent from all of Baseball America’s top-100 prospect lists throughout his minor-league career, Webb debuted with Arizona in 2003, throwing 180.2 innings that season and producing a 4.4 WAR. He surpassed the 180-inning threshold in every subsequent campaign through 2008 — which season was of sufficient quality to earn him a second place finish in Cy Young voting only to Tim Lincecum.

After that, for all intents and purposes, Webb’s career was over.

It’s an unusual career arc, that — and, perhaps for that reason, one sometimes forgets that Webb was among the best pitchers in the league while he flourished. Regard, by way of example, the top-10 pitchers by WAR from 2003 to -08:

# Name Team IP K% BB% GB% xFIP- FIP- ERA- WAR
1 Johan Santana – – – 1305.0 26.1% 5.9% 38.6% 75 74 64 35.7
2 Roy Halladay Blue Jays 1232.0 17.8% 4.2% 56.6% 75 75 71 32.2
3 CC Sabathia – – – 1269.0 20.5% 6.5% 44.4% 84 80 78 30.0
4 Brandon Webb D-backs 1315.2 19.3% 7.9% 64.3% 75 75 71 29.5
5 Roy Oswalt Astros 1247.1 19.0% 5.5% 48.5% 82 78 74 27.7
6 Javier Vazquez – – – 1272.0 22.1% 6.2% 39.0% 86 86 94 26.3
7 Mike Mussina Yankees 1108.2 19.2% 5.0% 43.7% 84 82 90 25.2
8 Ben Sheets Brewers 1060.0 21.7% 4.5% 40.8% 80 76 81 25.1
9 Randy Johnson – – – 1031.0 24.6% 5.5% 42.2% 77 77 85 25.1
10 Mark Buehrle White Sox 1336.0 14.1% 5.3% 46.0% 95 91 84 24.4

That, again, is a collection of the best pitchers from the mid-aughts — and Webb was their peer for the duration of that period over which his shoulder worked adequately.

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For most who’re familiar with FanGraphs, this is probably little more than review. For my part, I had remembered that Webb was quite excellent — and that his excellence was largely founded on a ground-ball rate literally unmatched by any starter since that point in time (2002) for which that data exists.

There’s a curious phenomenon that occurs sometimes, though, in such cases where metrics or data become available for a player after his exit from the sport — or, at least, where one’s awareness about the importance of those metrics or data doesn’t arise till then. Not until the introduction of FIP-, for example — that is, fielding independent pitching adjusted for park and relative to league — did it occur to me to think at all about Noodles Hahn, who remains 12th all time by that measure among qualifiers. Likewise, it was only when Bill Petti examined historical strikeout rates relative to league that the achievement of Dazzy Vance was clear to me. Mostly, one is accustomed to using new tools to the end of assessing the value of contemporary players. Applying those same tools to players from the past, even the recent past, can yield new understandings — about the players, specifically, or about the tools themselves.

It had probably been three or four years since I’d examined Brandon Webb’s player profile before yesterday. My personal understanding of the game has change in the meantime. So has, on a basic logistical level, the stats I’ve included in the customizable area of the player pages here. One wouldn’t necessarily suppose that such a banal detail would facilitate even a minor epiphany. It has, though.

Examining Webb’s numbers, most of them were familiar to me — if not the particulars, then at least the larger concepts. He produced decent strikeout rates; he limited walks; his ground-ball rates were generationally great.

There was something I hadn’t remembered, though — or something I hadn’t known or thought to know. Allow me to re-enact the experience here poorly for you.

This is what I first saw, the aforementioned custom view of Brandon Webb’s player page:

Webb 1

And then my attention narrowed to a smaller area of that page, as follows:

Webb 2

Finally, I was surprised to see the following:

Webb 3

Not the red outline, because that wasn’t there, but rather Webb’s average fastball velocities over his career. Between 2003 and -08, the period over which he was healthy, Webb never averaged even 89 mph with his fastball. All told, his fastball sat at 88 mph over the course of his career.

That’s not particularly hard. By way of context, Kiley McDaniel notes that an average (50-grade) fastball sits at 90-91 mph. McDaniel refers to a 45-grade fastball as “below average.” An 88 mph fastball is a 40. That scale has surely changed as the league’s average velocities have risen, but the point is that Webb never possessed even above-average velocity — and that’s quite likely why he wasn’t really ever considered a prospect.

By way of more context, here the bottom-10 pitchers by average velocity from 2014:

# Name Team FB% FBv
88 R.A. Dickey Blue Jays 12.2% 81.9
87 Mark Buehrle Blue Jays 49.0% 83.9
86 Chris Young Mariners 66.4% 85.3
85 Josh Collmenter D-backs 70.2% 86.0
84 Jered Weaver Angels 51.6% 86.3
83 Jason Vargas Royals 57.4% 87.3
82 Dan Haren Dodgers 34.9% 87.7
81 Eric Stults Padres 50.4% 87.9
80 Doug Fister Nationals 63.7% 87.9
79 Travis Wood Cubs 52.8% 88.3

The average version of Brandon Webb would have appeared 10th on this list — which list is occupied mostly by multiple crafty left handers, certain right handers who’ve suffered multiple injuries, a knuckleballer, and a person whose pitching mechanics were mostly directly informed by throwing an ax in the woods.

In terms of wins, the median figure among this group was 1.4 WAR. Among the pitchers from 2014 with the top-10 fastest velocities: 3.1 WAR. Nor is this an isolated case: there’s a distinct relationship between velocity and success. And that’s not even accounting for the fact that the lower-velocity group above have had major-league careers only because they’ve exhibited the ability to succeed (relatively speaking) at lower velocities.

In short, were one compelled to project the future value of a pitcher, doing so merely based on his average fastball velocity wouldn’t be the worst way to do it. Nor does the presence of arm speed appear to affect merely the quality of a pitcher’s fastball. Felix Hernandez, Tim Lincecum, and Justin Verlander are all pitchers who entered the league with premium velocity and then developed elite secondary pitches only after several years in the league. That they could have had evolved in the absence of that velocity to begin with — or had the chance to evolve — is doubtful.

It’s unfair to infer from McDaniel’s brief grading rubric (linked above) that all a scout might consider with regard to a pitcher’s fastball is its velocity. Movement is obviously considered, as is command — and McDaniel has spoken to the necessity, as well, of considering all the qualities of a prospect as a whole. When tasked with evaluating thousands of players, however, a scout — or even an impostor scout like the present author, who’s tasked with evaluating barely anyone — must contend with the reality that the probability of a pitcher with below-average velocity really succeeding in the majors is limited.

In any case, far from being a hindrance, Webb’s fastball was ultimately among the league’s most valuable pitches during his career. His curveball and changeup are also considered above average per the pitch-type runs — and the quality of each pitch in his repertoire obviously influenced the success of the other two.

These things we know — but only after the fact. Of some interest, though, is how it came to pass that 248 players were selected before Webb and how, even the offseason just before his four-win rookie year, there appeared to be no conversations about he’d soon become a top-five starter in the major leagues. Were there signs that Webb would be so dominant? Should it have been obvious? Did he exhibit some manner of dramatic improvement in that offseason just before his debut?

One wants to learn from history. One wants to suppose that, were Brandon Webb a minor leaguer now, about to produce a four-win season, that it would be obvious somehow. Some readers might suggest that the not-knowing is part of the game’s beauty. I’m not entirely inclined to agree, if for no other reason than the sentiment borders on the maudlin. Moreover, of the 30 major-league clubs, there are few probably few who care much for the not-knowing part of baseball and would regard as very beautiful the idea of employing a quote-unquote “non-prospect” on the verge of a four-win season.

In conclusion, this video:





Carson Cistulli has published a book of aphorisms called Spirited Ejaculations of a New Enthusiast.

35 Comments
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Matthew
11 years ago

This is beautiful. RIP Brandon Webbs’ shoulder. Your groundballs will be missed.

fm
11 years ago

Didnt he have some sort of splitter/sinker? From everything i have heard, aging vets have turned to that pitch to extend shelf life at the added risk of injury.

Yirmiyahu
11 years ago
Reply to  fm

A splitter and a sinker are pretty unrelated pitches, other than the fact they drop. A sinker is just a two-seam fastball thrown with a downward wrist motion, and preferably kept low in the zone. Never heard of any injury risk with a sinker. As near as I can tell, the only other pitches that Webb threw were a curve and a change.

Lazer_Town
11 years ago
Reply to  fm

A sinker, and it was a really good one. So it wasn’t just a regular fastball, and this article really didn’t touch on it. Could have also pulled in Chien-Ming Wang, who’s time was shorter, but he had a somewhat similar story, and he played in the AL East, when it was still good. Wang averaged 92% FB, but it wasn’t really a fastball either, but a really good sinker.

James Pagel
11 years ago

Man, as a Diamondbacks fan, this article really brought back some good memories. Webb was one of my favorite players and the signed ball I have from him is probably the best piece of my memorabilia collection, at least nostalgia wise.

Compton
11 years ago

Is a boxing day article a thing? If not, this is definitely a boxing day article– one that I thoroughly enjoyed!

Anon
11 years ago

As a DBacks fan since their 1st season, there have been 4 DBacks pitchers that were really, truly fun to watch – Schilling, JOhnson, Kim and Webb. There have been others that were good but those 4 were something else to watch. I would submit that a more appropriate video to link would be one with just a non-stop stream of ground balls. I’ve never seen anyone generate ground balls like Webb.

BTW to anyone who questions why I would put BK Kim on that list – that guy was just as filthy as either JOhnson or Schilling when he was with the DBacks. Saw him get swinging strikes on pitches that hit batters in the stomach. He threw a riser or “zoom” ball that catchers had a hard time even catching (yes, I know technically it didn’t rise but still). Lost velocity at some point and was never the same after that,

Some Dude
11 years ago
Reply to  Anon

I still make fun of my (Red Sox fan) friend who bought a Kim shirt after he was traded here. Granted, I owned a Hillenbrand shirt, but at least he was an All Star. I always liked Kim (and the closer by committee) in theory, but in practice, not a great idea.

Though we do thank you for Schilling…

carter
11 years ago

Hey Carson, I love this article, so great. Keep it going. Now we need to see who fits Webb’s profile in the minors or newly in the Bigs. Happy New Year, man.

Outliar Baseball
11 years ago
Reply to  carter

Kyle Hendricks

Mike Green
11 years ago

Often the low velocity starters have better ERAs than FIPs. For the 2014 bottom 10 chart the median ERA was 3.65; the median FIP was 4.14.

For the high velocity starters, the median ERA was 3.26; the median FIP was 3.38.

It’s funny though. If you look at the names on the low velocity list- Buehrle, Dickey, Jered Weaver, Fister, Dan Haren- you see a bunch who have put together pretty good careers. The high velocity list is generally a bunch of young dudes who may or may not last. There’s a low-rent movie somewhere there…

Walter
11 years ago
Reply to  Mike Green

And a bad joke

Lazer_Town
11 years ago
Reply to  Mike Green

Someone with good velocity will continually get second chances. If you have low velocity you have to be on.

Avattoir
11 years ago
Reply to  Lazer_Town

A history of success can get the same, regardless velocity. The Dbacks paid $6.5m over buy-out to keep Webb for 2010, and then the Rangers must have paid SOMETHING for his attempted come back in 2012.

LHPSU
11 years ago
Reply to  Avattoir

That’s the point. You need to actually have success to get more chances if you don’t have velocity.

Paul Kasiński
11 years ago
Reply to  Mike Green

That’s selection bias for you, bro. Guys with low velocity have to have excellent other skills to be able to reach the majors, while flamethrowers will get a chance even if they’re good at nothing else.

Phantom Stranger
11 years ago

I believe scouts were also worried about Webb’s mechanics, which apparently did catch up with him in the end.

Avattoir
11 years ago

If we could go back in time, we’d surely find scouts who expressed similar concerns about young Walter Johnson. There’s been admissions by SF their scouts had comparable concerns about Bumgarner, but they figured to train him out of his ‘bad mechanics’. Matt Cain was praised a bunch for his classic orthodoxy, but he still went down to bone chips.

Vince
11 years ago

False. 1300+ innings will do some work to your shoulder regardless of mechanics. These same scouts would have been the doubters that were wrong about Webb, not right. They do not deserve a pat on the back.

plasmaj
11 years ago

Collin Mchugh’s 2014 was great in that respect as well. Not quite a 4 WAR (3.3), but spectacular nonetheless. Also, coming at a pretty advanced age.

Matthew
11 years ago
Reply to  plasmaj

I think Dallas Keuchel is more similar. A 65% GB rate and a fastball under 90.

Johnny Ringo
11 years ago

I feel much better about the Cubs Kyle Hendricks after this article. Thanks! 🙂

Jason
11 years ago

Great post, Webby was one of my favorite players as I started watching baseball.

I was lucky enough to see him throw a 1 hit shutout against the Cardinals in late 06, saw one of his shutouts during the scoreless streak in 07, and watched him win in the playoffs against the Cubs the same year.

He produced a lot of great baseball memories for me, so this was a nice reminder.

Thomas Scherrer
11 years ago

Webb and Wang…freakishly similar spots of our dominance followed by, literally, having their shoulders fall off a cliff.

Jason B
11 years ago

Which cliff(s) did they fall off of? Were they ever recovered? Did only their shoulders fall, or their entire bodies? What were these rogue shoulders doing dancing on the edge of a cliff in the first place?! Why wasn’t this a bigger story?! So many questions…

mgraves
11 years ago
Reply to  Jason B

I believe that “Thomas Scherrer” is Joe Biden’s nom de plume.

Jason B
11 years ago
Reply to  mgraves

You would think they would put a guard rail up or something! Geez.

jcxy
11 years ago

Great stuff

LHPSU
11 years ago

Dallas Keuchel – avg 89.7mph FB, led the majors with a 63.5% GB rate.

StroShow
11 years ago

What happened to Webb:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bursitis

Ow.

Krog
11 years ago

Webb was one of those rare pitchers who had both high ground ball and strikeout rates. For that, he was always one of my favorite players. Good article Carson.

ST
11 years ago

I was at a game in 06′ at Shea, Webb vs. Pedro, best game I’ve ever been to. Webb threw 7 shutout innings, didn’t allow an extra base hit and walked one. Pedro threw 8 shutout innings, didn’t allow an extra base hit and walked none. They put on a hell of a show. Sad that both completely fell apart within a few years.

Ulysses
11 years ago

Digging these longer pieces Carson

Christian
11 years ago

Agree with Ulysses… Love your stuff Carson! Please keep clicking haphazardly

Hurtlocker
11 years ago

Nice article. I’s sad he ended his career on an injury at his peak, but he did earn $18,000,000 for the years he was injured. A least a little security for the family.