The Case for Trading Jonathan Lucroy
The Brewers season is over. Already a mediocre team that needed to catch a lot of breaks in order to contend, Milwaukee has gotten off to an 8-18 start, watched two of their best players end up on the disabled list, and on Sunday night, they fired their manager. They currently stand 11.5 games behind the Cardinals in the NL Central race, and the season is only a month old. By the time the trade deadline rolls around, they may be 20 games out, and even the lowered bar of the second Wild Card can’t save the Brewers 2015 season. Which is why they’ve already told other teams that they’ll likely be an early seller, and are just waiting for buyers to decide it’s time to upgrade in order to start moving veterans for things that can offer more help in the future.
However, according to Buster Olney, the Brewers are hanging a not-for-sale sign on their best player.
The Brewers have made clear to other teams assessing possible trade options: They are not willing to deal catcher Jonathan Lucroy.
— Buster Olney (@Buster_ESPN) May 5, 2015
This shouldn’t come as any big surprise, as even rebuilding teams have rarely moved their franchise players lately. Whether it was Felix Hernandez, Troy Tulowitzki, or Giancarlo Stanton, we just haven’t seen non-contending teams be willing to put legitimate frontline players on the market, preferring instead to build around their best players rather than use them as chips to try and stockpile a larger quantity of talent. It’s one thing to trade role players and guys on expiring contracts, but no one seems particularly interested in getting rid of the kind of player that is very hard to get back.
But I think there’s a strong case to be made that the Brewers should go against the grain here. Jonathan Lucroy is a great player, but I think the Brewers are probably better off trading him than they are keeping him.
Let’s start with the obvious; Lucroy is an amazingly valuable trade chip. He was a legitimate MVP candidate last year, putting up a +6 WAR season that doesn’t give him any credit for his framing talents, which is the skill that made him famous in the first place. If you take the full measure of framing run estimates at face value, Lucroy may have been more like an +8 WAR player last year. That was likely a peak season that he won’t repeat, but he is likely a four or five win upgrade over a replacement level catcher throughout the course of an entire season, making him one of the very best players in baseball.
And then there is his salary. Due to the pre-breakout extension he signed, Lucroy’s under contract for $3 million this year, $4 million next year, and then the Brewers hold an option for the 2016 season at the whopping price of $5.2 million. In other words, over the rest of this year and the next two seasons, the Brewers owe Lucroy a grand total of under $12 million, or less than the team will pay Matt Garza for just the 2015 season alone.
If you’re wondering about the market value of an elite defensive catcher who can also hit pretty decently, well, Russell Martin just got $83 million over five years as a free agent last winter, and that was for his age 32-36 seasons; Lucroy is not only a better player than Martin, but his remaining contract covers his age 29-31 seasons.
If Lucroy were a free agent over the winter, and said he only wanted to sign a three year deal, the bidding likely would have been pushing towards $85 or $90 million; Hanley Ramirez (an inferior player) got $88 million for four years by absolving the Red Sox of some risk this way, showing the AAV premium that gets attached to shorter deals. So if Lucroy is worth something like $85 or $90 million before he becomes a free agent, and he’s getting paid just north $10 million, well, you can see why he ranked 13th on my off-season Trade Value update.
And because of his exceptionally low salary, the Brewers would have the opportunity to market him to a number of teams who usually can’t be buyers for elite players. Generally, teams selling these kinds of high-end talents can call the Yankees, Red Sox, Tigers, Dodgers, or the Phillies, but few other teams can afford to both the prospect and salary cost of MVP-caliber trade chips. At $3 million this year, however, Lucroy fits in every team’s budget, and the Brewers could have substantial negotiations with any of the other 29 clubs in baseball.
The Astros, for instance, are probably not going to be in on Cole Hamels, even after their 18-8 start has given them a seven game lead in the AL West. But you have to know that the team that employs Mike Fast probably puts a pretty high value on Lucroy’s skillset, and if they wanted to make a serious upgrade over the next few seasons, swapping Lucroy in for Jason Castro would likely be the kind of deal that would force them to the table. Same deal with the Pirates, who wanted to keep Martin but had to settle for Francisco Cervelli due to payroll restrictions. While teams like the Red Sox and Dodgers would almost certainly be interested if Lucroy became available, the Brewers wouldn’t face the same kind of limited market that exists for more expensive trade chips, and could leverage the higher demand to extract a premium price.
Blake Swihart is not on the table for Cole Hamels, but you have to believe the Red Sox would part with him (and a lot more) in order to land Lucroy. The Astros and Carlos Correa? The Dodgers and Corey Seager? These guys might be untouchable for expensive aging pitchers, but put a 29 year old star catcher being paid like a middle reliever on the trade block, and I’d imagine those guys suddenly aren’t so off limits anymore. Lucroy is the kind of chip that gets you a premium talent in return, and probably some other stuff too.
Of course, all these guys come with a lot of risk, and prospects bust all the time, even the really good ones. It’s understandable that the Brewers wouldn’t want to trade their franchise player for some guy who probably won’t ever be as good as Lucroy already is, and certainly won’t sign a deal that pays him so little through is prime years. Why trade a low-risk commodity for a guy who you hope might become what you’re trading away?
Because, unfortunately for the Brewers, their near-term reality is bleak. This isn’t a situation where they just need to swap out some parts and come roaring back next year. 2015 is the decline into a hole, not the climb out of it. Things are probably not going to get significantly better in Milwaukee during the remainder of Lucroy’s contract.
The Brewers just don’t really have a good young core they can point to and hope for a near-term resurgence. You’re not going to challenge the Cardinals, Cubs, and Pirates with a team built around Jean Segura, Wily Peralta, Jimmy Nelson, and Ryan Braun’s decline years. Orlando Arcia looks like a nifty prospect who could play one of the two middle infield spots as early as next year, and maybe Clint Coulter can make an impact in a couple of years, but the rest of their best prospects are in A-ball (or lower), and there just isn’t enough here to build a credible case that Milwaukee will be able to stack up enough talent to compete with the three very good teams in their own division.
Once you admit the 2015 season is over, then retaining star center fielder Carlos Gomez — who is under contract through 2016, but will lose significant trade value if a team is only acquiring his walk year — doesn’t make much sense anymore. And once you trade him, the odds of contending in 2017 aren’t very good either. Maybe if the front office made some extremely shrewd free agent signings they could get back to being a decent team with an outside shot at a Wild Card spot, but even that would take a lot of good fortune. The Brewers don’t have enough talent in-house to be good any time soon, and while you can always hope to hit on every acquisition you make, it’s an unrealistic expectation.
By the time the Brewers have a chance to compete in the NL Central again, Jonathan Lucroy will be a 31 or 32 year old catcher, either in the final year of his current contract or the first year of his new deal, and assuming he remains a valuable contributor, he’s going to demand a significant chunk of change, since it will be his first and only shot at a big payday. While the Brewers are understandably attached to their star catcher, they should probably take a look at the Twins regretful decision to pay Joe Mauer market price for his decline years, and keep in mind the risks that a team with a mid-level payroll runs betting on an aging catcher.
The Brewers most likely aren’t going to be able to turn Lucroy’s short-term value into a playoff run, and they probably shouldn’t be planning on re-signing him to a big expensive deal that would turn him into an albatross at the end of his career. For a team facing a several year rebuilding project, a 29 year old catcher who is unlikely to sign another below-market deal is just not the kind of piece you want to build around. If Lucroy was 25, okay, yeah, keep him. But he’s not 25, and the Brewers have worked him very hard over the years, so he’s already racked up nearly 5,000 innings behind the plate in his career. Maybe he has 5,000 more in his knees, but this isn’t a guy who is easily going to transition his skills to another position and remain an impact player, and the bet on his long-term value is a bet on him staying productive while catching regularly into his mid-30s.
And so while Lucroy is a star now, keeping him as a building block for the future may very well be a riskier bet than trading him for a package of minor leaguers. There’s risk in either decision, so it’s not exchanging a sure thing for not-a-sure thing, and there’s very likely going to be more long-term potential in the players the team would get back for Lucroy than he will offer himself.
If this was just a one year setback, keeping Lucroy would be a viable strategy. If he was a few years younger, you could still see him as a cornerstone for the next good Brewers team. But he’s a nearly 30 year old catcher who will demand a huge raise before the Brewers get good again, and he’s the kind of asset now that would allow them to bring back a player who could be their next franchise cornerstone.
The Brewers got where they are now by regularly shooting for the middle. It’s time to stop worrying about making it to 75 wins and focus on getting to 90 wins again. Jonathan Lucroy is probably not still going to be a star when the Brewers can put another 90 win team on the field, but the pieces that he could bring back in a mid-season trade certainly could be. While the Brewers shouldn’t be giving him away, telling interested parties that they don’t want to move their most valuable trade chip is the same kind of half-in/half-out strategy that got them in this mess in the first place.
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
At first I thought you were crazy to throw out Correa as on the table for Lucroy, but then I remembered one of the game’s best-respected GMs gave up Addison Russel for less time of a more expensive and older SP. A Lucroy trade would be fun.
Astros have had one of the best bullpen ERA this season. What are you talking about? One game doesn’t change that.
The Addison Russell trade will go down as one of the worst trades in history.
Lots of bad trades in baseball history, Nolan Ryan, Jeff Bagwell…
The Josh Donaldson trade rates up there too. Essentially, the Cubs got more for 1 year of a second tier pitcher than the A’s got for a number of years of the best third baseman in the league.
Jason Hammel was also in that trade, let’s not forget. Not that he was the big name, but the A’s got two MLB-caliber starters in that deal.
Eh — Cubs also got McKinney/Straily/PTBNL. That’s a solid package for Hammels alone, and indeed could go to the point that CHN got Russell+ for Samardzija.
Yeah, Hammels was totally awesome for the A’s last year!
The A’s would be 19-8 right now if they had anything resembling a real MLB bullpen, and if you don’t believe that then at least look at their 15-12 pythag and realize that the offense is charging and the starting pitching is good-to-great. Its a shame the pen routinely gives away 2+ run leads, because if their win total looked anything like how well they’ve been playing, they’d be a perfect model for teams like the Brewers to show that after trading away assets that looked “untouchable” they are still well in the hunt in a weak division. The Brewers should look at their model anyway and unload literally everyone, – starting – with Lucroy.
“The A’s would be 19-8 right now if they had anything resembling a real MLB bullpen, and if you don’t believe that then at least look at their 15-12 pythag and realize that the offense is charging and the starting pitching is good-to-great. ”
By my math, to get from a 15-12 pythag to 19-8 means going from 138 RS/121 RA to 138 RS and 86 RA. You are suggesting that the difference is the pen, so in your 19-8 scenario, the A’s pen has allowed 35 less runs, putting them at 1.60 runs allowed.
Just so we’re on the same page, in recent years the best pens have allowed around 2.5-3 runs per 9 innings, so your suggestion is that they’d be really good if instead of having a terrible bullpen they had one of the best all time?
i realize hindsight is 20/20 but its 3wks later and the offense is getting no hit by a spot starter and a guy making 2nd career start a day after going 0-13 risp.
Great piece. Any time I see something like “Lucroy is off limits,” I instantly wonder if that is because Attanasio would never allow it. He wants fans in the seats, and trading the star player won’t help.
Trading Lucroy won’t help attendance but how many people go to the ballpark just to see Lucroy?
Are the Brewers even pulling in good attendance numbers anyways? That would be pretty hard to imagine right now.
Yeah, I don’t think you’d be able to show that there’s an attendance decline by Lucroy not being in the lineup, but I get what Rick is saying. I worry that the organization’s goal isn’t to get to 90 wins as Dave mentions above, but rather to cover operating costs every year. Trading Lucroy wouldn’t drive down ticket sales itself but I think the owners may worry that it’s a larger message being sent to the “fans” that they’re in a full-scale rebuild and that they have avoided that so far (which as the article mentions is why they’re in this position).
As for current season attendance, I was surprised that yesterday’s article on doubleheaders showed the Brewers have actually gained in attendance so far this year. Though again– in season performance usually doesn’t correlate with attendnance if I recall correctly from the article. Also for what it’s worth there have been tons of “free ticket” promotions going around Milwaukee so maybe that’s leading to their increased attendance, while “sales” are probably actually down.
I watched the game last night, with the Dodgers in town and Kershaw pitching, and it was pretty silent the first 6 or 7 innings minus when Mattingly was tossed and when they hit back to back triples. It seemed like it was fairly empty.
Top 10 in attendance so far…
Don’t worry, I’m sure the interactive “Bud Selig experience” they installed at Miller Park last year will keep the fans coming out.
The thing about Lucroy is that the team that trades for him would do so at the deadline when major league talent is at a premium because you can be relatively certain that he can help you get to the playoffs this year as opposed to the beginning of the season when it’s hard to tell whether you really have a shot. That means his excess value is probably closer to $110-120 million rather than just merely $80 million.
And that’s the problem with this scenario. We’re talking two top ten prospects in return or something like either Russell and Soler or Seager and Urias. Realistically, it would require a young stud in the majors plus a top prospect and filler.
He’s just so valuable that the only option would be to trade him at a discount because full value costs just so much talent.
Which is why this “off limits” actually makes some sense. Why not wait a year, see if you have a good team in 2016 (it’s silly to think that couldn’t happen, really for any team other than the Phillies) and if they aren’t, you could get the same return for 1.5 years of Lucroy as you could get for 2.5 years, assuming good health. Teams don’t sell the farm, but the farm is what Lucroy is worth.
I would bet on the Phillies making the playoffs over the Brewers for basically any year between 2016 and 2020. I think you’re not accounting for financial power enough when considering how fast a rebuild can go, or how deep a hole the Brewers have ended up in.
Rebuilding a terrible team using financial strength basically never works. Feel free to provide a single example.
TKDC:
The 2015 Red Sox (presumably).
The Dodgers
Neither of those teams were terrible. The Red Sox seriously underperformed and the Dodgers were merely mediocre. The Phillies could add Mike Trout and Clayton Kershaw and they’d still be mediocre. They have no path to being decent in 2016.
Also, I now realize that I did not add the caveat of “in a single year.” That was what I was looking for, but I guess it is my fault for not including that. However, that is what I was responding to, that the Phillies could use money to make the playoffs in 2016. Obviously, as the Dodgers have shown especially, having money can turn you into a formidable power. Of course, the Dodgers homegrown talent far exceeds the Phillies.
TKDC = The King Dof Ctrawmen?
“Rebuilding a terrible team using financial strength basically never works. Feel free to provide a single example.”
Examples are sparse because the setup rarely occurs. Rich teams rarely allow themselves to become terrible in the first place.
We all understand that his value is astronomical, but why tell other teams to not even make offers? How do you know someone wouldn’t offer their 2 best prospects? You don’t have to advertise he’s for sale in order to keep PR up, but it would be best to let him be out there and listen to all offers rather than turn people away before they even get to your door. Do you think the Cubs really thought they could get someone like Russell for half a year of Samardzija? Probably not, but it happened.
Let’s all remember that it was 1.5 years of Samardzija. AND half a year of Jason Hammel. No one told Billy Beane he had to trade Shark for spare parts in the offseason.
You prob have him confused with Lester, whom they acquired for just half a year (for Cespedes), and who now plays for the Cubs (where Jason Hammel returned). So yeah, somewhat convoluted but still see your overall point.
If there’s an upper bound on the value that teams will trade for Lucroy (presumably they’d be willing to trade that amount regardless of whether they would need to eat his miniscule salary) and if he’d reach that bound either this year or next year then the reason why you’d still trade him this year rather than next year is if:
the Brewers 2015 playoff chances +
the Brewers 2016 playoff chances +
the Attendance Loss from trading Lucroy in 2015 and 2016
is less than
the chance that Lucroy gets hurt or becomes ineffective this year.
the cash that the Brewers save by not paying Lucroy his salary
It’s possible it does make sense to trade him at a discount.
It’s possible, yes, but unlikely. I think there is a reason you almost never see trades of low-cost players with an incredible amount of surplus value. Even if another team has the assets and sees the value, the sticker shock is hard to swallow.
Also, the whole “not for sale” is obviously not a death covenant. It’s not like the the Pirates offered McCutchen, Palanco, and Cole they’d say “no, we said he’s off the table!”
Agreed that it’s totally unlikely. I just find it interesting that it’s not flat-out absurd.
Matt: “He’s just so valuable that the only option would be to trade him at a discount because full value costs just so much talent.”
@Matt – that’s why you take a cue from the NBA and trade in garbage with Lucroy. Maybe even Ryan Braun.
His “value” is what other teams are willing to offer for him. Because he is (big assumption, but one baked into this discussion) much less useful to the Brewers than he is to a contender, it makes sense for the Brewers to trade him for the best possible return. It’s only not a “value” if there was a better offer out there they didn’t accept. Even a single young, controllable top prospect like Russell is probably worth more than keeping Lucroy would be worth so if that’s the best offer they should take it.
This is simply illogical. Just because something is less valuable to me than it is to a group of other people does not mean I should sell it to whichever of those other people is willing to pay the most. They still must pay as much or more for this thing than I value it or I will keep it.
No matter how good people think Lucroy is, it would be absolute insanity to trade 2 top 10 prospects for him. I wouldn’t trade 2 top 10 prospects for anyone not named Mike Trout.
Lucroy to the Astros makes so much sense for both teams.
Would Correa, Appel and Jason Castro be too much to give up?
Yes.
The Astros are not giving up Correa for anything. Dave even mentioning it shows how out of touch he is.
Addison Russell was traded just last year, for a lesser player than Lucroy who was getting paid more and had one fewer year left on his deal. Given that they actually appear to be contending this year, and there’s no way they don’t at least think about it.
It’s more about the Astros front office. Carlos Correa in their minds is a future perennial all star. They aren’t going to sacrifice the guy they consider to be the future long time team captain for a short term fix, especially when they are happy with Jason Castro and the only thing Lucroy provides over him is better average and power, and incremental pitch framing. The Astros are still about the long term process of building a Cardinals-esque perenniel contender. They aren’t trading the top prospect in baseball. The end.
Yes, but the Russell trade was terrible. Can we stop using that as some kind of benchmark?
no and i would ask for another mid-level pitcher.
I wouldn’t trade Correa for him, let alone Correa and Appel.
Zero chance they trade Correa. 1% Chance they would trade Appel.
Castro obviously isn’t Lucroy, but he’s well-regarded framer, he’s just as cheap. Even without framing he’s a 1.5-2 win player. Swapping out Castro for Lucroy is a real improvement and gets 1 more year of control, but the marginal improvement over what they have is really more like 2 wins, not 4. That’s not worth trading top-25 prospects over, let alone the top prospect in the game (I also suspect that they think Conger is the next Lucroy). The best prospect they’d be willing to part with for that upgrade is probably Velasquez, McCullers, or Moran.
The Astros have a lot of guys who would be intriguing to a rebuilding club but are increasingly looking like odd men out in the organization longterm- Jon Singleton, Robbie Grossman, Jonathan Villar, Preston Tucker, Domingo Santana, Andrew Aplin, Nolan Fontana. All of these guys basically profile as flawed, bottom-tier starters but who have a roleplayer/bench-bat floor, solid starter upside, and many years of control ahead. They are the exact kind of guys a rebuilding team can afford to give extended playing time to to see of they turn into solid contributors. These are the guys I expect the Astros to try to move in trades.
I’d be shocked if MIL would move Lucroy for Castro + 2 of the guys mentioned, so I just don’t think there’s a deal here. Best offer I see the Astros making is Castro + Velasquez. The Astros biggest weakness is the back end of their rotation, and real help from the farm probably doesn’t come until mid-2016. Replacing Roberto (Fauxsto) Hernandez with a 2-win SP gives you the same 2-win improvement Castro-for-Lucroy does, and a 2-win SP can be had for the guys who are expendable for the Astros.
translation?
Instead of Correia, how about all these orginazational filler types who might turn into 2WAR types 4 years down the road!
Yep, that’s pretty much it. They won’t ever say it out loud, but the Astros think Correa is Tulowitzki v 2.0. There are at most 5 players in all of baseball they’d trade Correa for straight up. Lucroy isn’t one of them.
In case you tldr’d it, you may note I said “I just don’t think there’s a deal here.” I don’t expect MIL would take any of those guys for Lucroy. If there’s a logical HOU/MIL deal it’s more along the lines of Robbie Grossman and Alex White for Mike Fiers
1% chance they would unload Appel? Are you kidding me? I guarantee you they have quietly been trying to move him for the past two years.
as a brewer fan i have digested this and swallowed my knee jerk reaction to hate this idea.
my real issue with this topic is if GMs actually value lucroy as much as dave does here. clearly lucroy has been an all star and put up solid offensive and defensive numbers. clearly he’s in a highly favorable contract situation. but when you get into things like pitch framing adding value, you’re shrinking (if not obliterating) the audience who you might be speaking to on a decision maker level in the front office. i’ll probably take heat for this, but the russell martin example to me reeks of a highly ill-advised move by toronto + some amazing slight of hand by martin’s agent(s).
all that aside, i think it’s further preposterous to assume the brewers could hope to get back 2 top prospects (russell/soler example above). not only has that not happened in a number of years, teams have shown a marked stinginess with prospects that only seems to be growing (a’s and rays possibly excluded).
this is a really meaty topic, but i think the disconnect between the sabermetric juiciness of it and the real life old boring GM factor don’t play well together.
that being said, send corey seager right over if the dodgers come calling…
I think you may want to reconsider how “old boring” you think the majority of GMs are. Sure, those guys are out there, but more and more teams are moving to analytically minded approaches.
Certainly, it’s been awhile since a team has made a trade where they got back two top prospects.
But then again, when is the last time someone as good as Lucroy has been traded with 2 and a half years of control remaining at such a low price?
Not exactly the same, but Schilling had 1.5 left when he went to the Diamondbacks and brought back “can’t-miss” prospect Travis Lee plus filler.
I think Tony Fernandez and Joe Carter each had 2 full years left when they were traded. Fernandez was a 5-WAR SS (not that we knew what WAR was) and McGriff was a 5-6 WAR 1b.
Roberto Alomar had like 5+ years left, but was not quite a start yet (3-4 WAR), and Joe Carter was coming off a horrible season and was, at best a 2 WAR player at that point (horrible defense).
But yeah, that was a long time ago and the costs, on both sides, were enormous.
Closest similar example I can think of is when Dickey got traded after winning a CY Young. He netted d’Arnaud and Syndergaard. Granted, Syndergaard wasn’t quite as highly rated back then because he wasn’t ML-ready, but he was billed as having a very high ceiling.
It’s tough to compare a 28 year old catcher with a late-30’s knuckleballer, but people thought Dickey could sustain success for a couple more years despite his age.
And while he did only have one more year on his contract (at around $5MM I think), it was well known that he was looking for a reasonable 2-year extension, which he signed shortly after the trade.
Dickey isn’t a bad comparison and ended up being worth about the #23 and #54 outright. Of course, he also ended up costing another $20 million more than Lucroy.
Thing is, some people thought that Dickey was for real but others questioned it. While Toronto thought that Dickey wanted a reasonable extension, the Mets weren’t willing to offer him another 2 years at $24 million.
I think Lucroy is better than Dickey was considered at that point. I also think trading him at the deadline as opposed to the start of the season will help his value.
This seems to me to be a great comparison.
Dickey was one of the best MLB pitchers, if not the best.
Lucroy is one of the best MLB catchers, if not the best.
Dickey had one year left on his contract.
Lucroy has just less than two.
Dickey brought the Mets the top Blue Jays’ prospect (who was MLB ready the following season), plus another top ten prospect from Toronto’s system, who was ready two seasons later.
Lucroy’s value would reasonably be thought of as equivalent to two top ten prospects from a team’s system, maybe more.
I agree with you. As good as he’s been, I don’t know that he’s viewed in the same way that Molina/Posey have been viewed. He’s not a big-name star, which is something that GMs look for if they’re going to trade away their top two prospects (on top of the actual production, obviously). Factor in that he started off slowly and then got hurt, and I don’t think GMs are looking at him as a $100MM excess value type of player.
Also, in reading an ESPN article about Molina yesterday, it was mentioned that Lucroy has the biggest year over year drop in framing rates. Has he started to lose his chops when it comes to framing?
It’s worth noting that Dave is frequently the *low* man on framing metrics, within this community. His evaluations of framing are generally much more conservative than most.
Most, at least, of those who have an interest in quantifying strikes stolen. Cpt. Rhubarb who recently bought a Compaq to comment about baseball on the Scout Dot Com forums is not included in this sample.
This amuses me greatly.
Roster is too good to do a full yard sale. As much as it would hurt they should make just a few strikes and keep the rest in place. Gomez would yield a huge return and it’s easier to find a CFer than an elite C. Cargo, Broxton, KRod, Lohse, maybe Lind. I’d keep the rest in place.
Gomez is talented and worth something. The other four guys you mention there are spare parts. Combined, they’re projected to produce 3.4 WAR, and are earning a combined $31 M. Nobody’s going to give you much for that kind of production.
“Roster is too good to do a full yard sale”
What? Are we looking at the same roster? The have two elite players on offense and zero elite pitchers. Braun is basically nothing more than an average player with health issues. He would go unclaimed if put on waivers because nobody is going anywhere near that contract and the rest of his baggage. Guys like Lind, Scooter, and Khris Davis are second division starters, at best. Ramirez is retiring. Lohse, Peralta, Fiers and Garza are all mid-to-back end pitchers. This roster has exactly two guys in their early 20s who have any kind of upside in Segura, who’s been pretty meh outside of half a season and Jimmy Nelson. And on top of all that, their farm system sucks. There’s a reason they are out of first by double digits a month into the year.
And they were 82-80 a year ago with virtually the same roster. This is not an old roster by any stretch… Aramis, Lohse and KRod are the only players over 31 on the roster. And there is a very solid core in place already. I wouldn’t tear it all down if it were up to me.
The Brewers are terrible for the foreseeable future and Jonathan Lucroy is only signed for two more years (with a club option). Because he is signed so cheaply, and plays such a premium position, he should bring a boatload of value back. Investing in him long-term is not wise because the Brewers are a middle market team and he will likely need to become a part-time catcher by the time his next contract starts.
Did I pretty much nail it without reading it?
Pretty much. Only major thing you missed was that his incredibly low salary means that his market is not shrunk by financial constraints.
Find a single Cameron article that one could not nail without reading…
“Due to the pre-breakout extension he signed, Lucroy’s under contract for $3 million this year, $4 million next year, and then the Brewers hold an option for the 2016 season at the whopping price of $5.2 million.”
Do you mean 2017?
By my count, there’s 5 AL teams who have both the need for a catcher and the prospects to get a deal done: Astros, Mariners, Rangers, White Sox, and Red Sox. Obviously there are several other NL teams that fit the profile, but I’m just going to go over some AL teams’ trade scenarios for the sake of brevity. Maybe someone else can dream up the NL teams’ offers.
Astros: Correa+V. Velasquez+Moran for Lucroy; I just can’t see Houston trading the #1 prospect in baseball, especially with the way he is flat out dominating AA right now.
Mariners: Zunino+DJ Peterson+A. Jackson for Lucroy; out of all the possible trade scenarios, I think Seattle makes the most sense. They have about a 2-3 year window here with Felix and Seager in their primes and Cruz still mashing, and Lucroy is exactly the type of player they need to help push them over the top.
Rangers: Gallo+Alfaro+A. Gonzalez for Lucroy; Can’t see them depleting their farm system like this for a (massive) upgrade at catcher when their pitching staff is such a mess.
White Sox: Rodon+T. Anderson+S. Adams+Montas; I know they fancy themselves contenders, but they’ve been really bad so far and I don’t see them parting with Rodon since the back end of their rotation is terrible and they lose Samardzija after this season.
Red Sox: Swihart+2 of Owens/Rodriguez/Devers/Margot; they certainly have the prospect depth to pull it off, but if they do make a trade in which they are giving up these types of prospects, it will be for pitching.
Zunino? Austin Jackson? Yuck. Here are two rusty nickels for your shiny quarter!
Maybe they can send over Logan Morrison too?
That’s Alex Jackson, their #1 prospect, not Austin.
Austin Powers..?
But we will gladly throw in Austin Jackson too.
I agree with you that Lucroy is a good fit for the Mariners if they are contenders. But Paxton and Walker need to pitch like #4 and #5 starters, and Iwakuma has to be reasonably healthy in order for them to play up to their projections.
It’s sad. Thought the Mariners might have a chance this year. But it looks like this could be what we’ve got for starting pitching. Let’s see if we can get better by the break.
“I just can’t see Houston trading the #1 prospect in baseball”
Who mentioned Byron Buxton or Kris Bryant?
I can’t see Houston trading Bryant or Buxton either.
Maybe the Brewers are saying Lucroy is off-limits rather than saying they’re looking to move him so that teams don’t come into trade talks with the mindset of “Lucroy’s available and they want to move him” and are instead thinking “he’s not at all available, but we want him, so we better pony up.” Sort of like playing hard to get.
Exactly. There is nothing to see here. Cameron’s advice that they should move him is absurd, as no one historically has ever paid full price for a player of Lucroy’s talent and contract.
The Brewers are simply saying: “We’re well aware of his value.”
I would keep saying Lucroy is off-limits and then shop him to contenders right before the trade deadline. That might yield a very positive return – from, perhaps, Billy Beane. 🙂
Shopping him earlier is silly.
I’d imagine catcher is near the bottom of Beane’s wish list right now.
Nor does Beane have what the Brewers would be looking for. Barreto is the only >55 FV prospect in the system and he’s being kicked by A+ so far. Olson/Chapman/Nunez are 45 FV guys.
I don’t think the Brewers would trade Lucroy for Barreto + Olson + Chapman + Nunez (which is their top 4 prospects) for Lucroy.
After those guys it’s just mid-payout lottery tickets
Correa is not going anywhere.
It seems a lot of people are caught up on them shopping him or not shopping him. Why put a label on it? Just don’t say anything about it either way publicly, and let the other GMs come to you asking about him. They don’t need to be actively trying to trade him, but don’t put the off-limits tag on him either.
As far as I know Josh Donaldson was not available until he was traded.
Good point. Maybe the “off limits” stance on Lucroy is a tactic to get other teams to focus discussions on Gomez or (if the Brewers are fortunate enough) Braun.
Then again, that assumes that the front office that put together the current mess is smart enough to rebuild intelligently.
* reply to wildcard09
The Brewers front office isn’t bad, unless you can point to awful decisions they’ve made. The Lucroy extension was great. The Gomez extension was great. The Braun extension wasn’t awful, and literally nobody lucid would have been predicting this much of a downfall. The Lohse contract was solid. The Aramis contract was solid. They acquired Gerardo Parra for basically nothing. They traded the corpse of Yovani Gallardo for a potential closer, a utility-type player, and a lottery card. The Broxton and K-rod deals are head scratching, but those by themselves are not nearly enough to consider the front office inept.
The front office has done a great job of scouting other professional players, but stink at evaluating amateurs. Their first round picks have been terrible lately. They forfeited their 2013 pick for…Kyle Lohse. Need we say more?
Yes, we do need to say more. Lohse was worth 6.4 RA9 over his first two seasons, which already is worth more than his entire $33 mil contract. His current numbers look bad, but they’re bloated by an unsustainable 20 HR/FB% (his career is 9.8). His xFIP is 4.42, and given that he’s been able to beat his FIP by 5.5 wins from 2012-2015 due to a true talent low babip, his true talent ERA is around 4-4.1. Over a full season, that’s maybe 1.9 RA9. Overall, that would put him at 8.3 RA9 for only $33 million, which is a large surplus value. Giving up a 1st round pick for that is entirely defensible.
Their 1st round picks haven’t done well recently, but they’ve been above average in later rounds: Tyrone Taylor (2nd round), Jimmy Nelson (2nd round), Scooter Gennett (16th round), Khris Davis (7th round), Jason Rogers (32nd round), Jonathan Lucroy (3rd round). Small sample size cautions acknowledged, I don’t think they have a particularly good scouting department, but I don’t think they have an awful department, either. It hurts that they’ve been around .500 for years now and have lost out on top-10 draft picks; you can’t compare scouting departments based on a comparison between top-5 overall picks and top-15 overall picks.
Also acquired Adam Lind for basically nothing (Estrada)
I would be opposed to trading seager or urias in a package for lucroy. I mean, Grandal isnt terrible IMO. Catcher just isnt LAs biggest need these days. Though lucroy with grandal as the back up would be pretty nasty. Maybe a package around grant holmes could work? Guerrero and Van Slyke are legimate power bats with value. Maybe something like holmes, one of either SVS or Guerrero, and a couple decent pitching prospects like zach lee and a lower level long term prospect.
Im sure that offer can be beat by a rival team. But yeah, unless grandal starts really stinking it up i just dnt see the need to get rid of an 18 year old phenom /possible budding ace or a power bat at SS/3B. Those prospects just too promising to get rid of.
Any position that makes your team significantly better (and the difference between Grandal and Lucroy could be 4 wins…) is worth thinking about.
“a power bat at SS/3B. Those prospects just too promising to get rid of.”
Dodger fans should remember Andy LaRoche. He hit 30 HR as a 21 year old in A+/AA.
BA/BP overall rankings:
2006: #16
2007: #19/#20
2008: #31/#14
Should would have been nice for the Dodgers to trade that power hitting 3B (career -0.1 WAR) for Lucroy
The Dodgers are not going to give up on Grandal. They are certainly not going to give up Corey Seager or Julio Urias, their 2 most talented prospects in 10 years. Grandal has aot of upside, he’s not as polished as Lucroy, but he’s also not worth 1 of 2 baesball’s top 10 prospects, both under age 21. The Dodger’s need to stick with the younger Grandal, who is yet to realize his prime.
Lucroy would make a ton of sense if the Rockies look to hold Tulo/Cargo. Hundley has been a defensive upgrade over Rosario but his framing numbers are awful. I can’t imagine Gray/Dahl going anywhere but a McMahon, Tapia, Story and Murphy package would have to be tempting
We all know that ‘everyone is available.’ What the Brewers are really saying and has been alluded to in comments above, is that they don’t think anyone is going to pony up what they think is fair value for Lucroy. And just as a note – it’s very easy to say rebuild from a Baseball W vs. L standpoint, but when you’re paying the bills and you have the smallest TV contract/revenue in baseball (maybe US pro sports) keeping people coming through the door is just smart business. Stated above, no one is coming to just see Lucroy and Gomez per se but if they go all ‘Firesale-rebuild-every thing must go’ – attendance, concessions so on and so forth is going to take a HUGE hit…
Exactly. The Brewers have been averaging 30,000+/game attendance for years now. If they rebuild they will be going back to 10,000-15,000 game indefinitely (see the early 2000’s). This team needs to at minimum be considered good enough to have a chance any given year, and when things go right that’s when they make the playoffs.
I thought we learned something from the Royals last year. Some years you miss, that doesn’t mean you blow the whole thing up every time you have a bad year.
The Shark/Russell trade is still far from being a slam dunk for the cubs. Who knows if Russell is going to be a good major leaguer? Is it crazy to think Beane saw something he didn’t like in his game and sold high? Not at all!
So if we assume that’s true for a minute, then Beane turned a bust into Semien & Bassitt PLUS a legit shot at the 2014 World Series (which failed). Semien & Bassit (plus sleeper Ravelo) vs Russell & McKinney. This ain’t over boys.
It might be worth mentioning that the Brewers have now had three scouting directors during Doug Melvin’s term — Jack Zduriencik (who he inherited from the Dean Taylor regime and was given much of the credit for building up the club’s farm in the 2000’s) left to head up the Mariners in 2008, and his successor Bruce Seid passed away unexpectedly in September last year. Now scouting is being led by Ray Montgomery, who was the SD for the D’Backs the past four years. Mix that systemic turnover with the farm-depleting (not saying bad) trades made by the front office over the years to keep the team in contention-mode, and it’s easy to see why there isn’t a stronger foundation for the future. It should be a credit to Doug Melvin/Gord Ash that the team even has marketable assets like Lucroy and Gomez with some modicum of a youth movement that can still serve as a cheap nucleus to plug-in the right parts to make a run at a Wild Card spot for any year- including still this one.
Anyone familiar with Doug Melvin knows that he’s just as coy as he is shrewd. Just because he puts a “not for sale” sign up doesn’t mean he’s not listening to offers or doesn’t have an idea of what he would be looking for in order to deal, and it certainly doesn’t mean that he doesn’t recognize the sort of value he has. The fact that they had to announce the Lucroy situation probably just means no one is offering anywhere close to fair value for him — but that doesn’t mean Doug’s not willing to pull the trigger if it means getting back a haul. His blockbusters are almost always unexpected (Greinke, Sabathia, Carlos Lee), and even when everyone expects him to deal he’s shown he can still pull-off an unexpected return (Richie Sexson to Arizona).
More to the point, though — DM is still on the final year of his contract, and it’s not because Attanasio hasn’t been willing to extend him. There’s been talk that Doug is thinking retirement, and after handing over a three-year contract to a front-office friendly and club-popular rookie manager one month into the season and less than two months after convincing his owner to pick-up Ron Roenicke’s 2016 option I’m starting to think the writing is on the wall for the Melvin-era in Milwaukee. He might be more interested at ensuring the future of the Brewers system internally at this point than he is with selling off on-field commodities for prospects that he’s never really going to be the GM for years down the road. And I doubt he’d hand over a club that is in the midst of a full-rebuild project with little-to-no big league assets to any successor if he’s truly thinking retirement.
Brewer fans are again in limbo. And again it sucks.
If I were the Brewers, I’d trade Lucroy, Gomez and the rest of the old guys-rebuild the farm system and just bite the bullet.
I’d trade LuCroy for Corey Seager in a minute. 6+ years control of a young, corner-infielder (the weakest area in their farm-system) with All-Star potential, by giving up the last few years of LuCroy’s contract during their rebuild phase?! Seems like a steal to me.
The Nationals should trade for Lucroy. Ramos is an average all round catcher who is injury prone. He neither helps or hurts the Nats prospects to win this season. Trade him and top pitching prospect Giolito. Giolito is considered a top ten to top 20 prospect in the game by many analyst, but is not someone the Nats need this season or even next season to win. Lucroy is an impact hitter at catcher and just about the best pitch framer in the game. Sure trading the Nats best prospect is paying a ton, but they still have AJ Cole and are stacked at starting pitcher on the MLB roster. Resigning Fister and Jordan Zimmermann in the offseason eliminates any roster spot for Giolito and both of them are proven near ace quality pitchers. Tanner Roark and then AJ Cole is very good depth on top of the current roster. Lucroy would help the Nats both defensively and more importantly offensively right now in a year that they have an ungodly but underperforming roster.
Also, the Nats best prospect is kind of Bryce Harper. He’s only 22 years old.
billy would do it for a backup catcher with good .ops vs lhp & 3 Aball guys nobodys heard of.