The Dodgers Did Not Steal Yu Darvish

You’ve seen the news. You’ve almost certainly even seen the return, and unless you’re a devoted follower of the Dodgers’ farm system, you may not have recognized any of the names. Brendon Davis and A.J. Alexy were low-level guys who weren’t on many radars, and even the known guy in the deal was a back-end Top 100 prospect, an unorthodox-shaped hitter without a position who has never been talked up as any kind of future star.

So it’s easy to look at this deal and call it a big win for the Dodgers. They just added one of the best pitchers in baseball to an already-dominant pitching staff. Breaking the all-time record for wins in a season now isn’t that far-fetched. They are going to enter the postseason as the clear team to beat, and all it cost them was a guy who didn’t really fit on their roster in an obvious way and two lottery tickets in A-ball.

None of that is wrong. The Dodgers did well here, picking up a difference maker without surrendering any of the guys they see as potential core pieces for them down the road. But baseball trades aren’t always zero-sum affairs, and just because this was a nice move for LA doesn’t mean the Rangers got taken advantage of here.

For starters, we have to remember to adjust the expectation of a realistic return onto the market in which the transaction happened. Last winter, the market for bat-first sluggers cratered, so everyone who signed a first baseman or a corner outfielder with questionable defense got a cut-rate deal compared to what similar players had gone for in prior years. The same was true of rental players this year; the returns for pending free agents was just significantly less than we’ve come to expect.

J.D. Martinez got traded for a couple of low-end prospects and a throw-in. Solid role players like Lucas Duda, Addison Reed, Pat Neshek, Eduardo Nunez, Jaime Garcia (the first time, at least), Melky Cabrera, and Joe Smith were traded for prospects you’ll probably never hear of again. And, of course, Darvish was traded for a back-end Top 100 guy and some filler, bringing back what looks like less than we’ve seen rent-an-aces return in other years.

But this wasn’t other years. This year, the best teams all had huge division leads, lessening the incentive to make a big midseason acquisition, since all they would really be acquiring is a better roster in October, when randomness often reigns supreme. The teams in actual playoff races are mostly looking at a Wild Card play-in game, and giving up a high price to land a guy who may or may not be available to pitch in a winner-take-all contest isn’t something most teams are interested in.

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When it came down to it, the only teams all that interested in paying a real cost in prospects to upgrade their rotation were the Yankees and Dodgers, with Darvish and Sonny Gray representing enough supply to meet that demand. Despite the Rangers’ best efforts to drum up interest — I was told that they were calling teams who hadn’t expressed any interest in Darvish up to a half hour before the deadline to see if they wanted to make a late bid — they just found themselves in a disadvantageous position; there just weren’t enough suitors to really start a big bidding war.

And while that seems crazy, since Darvish would make every team in baseball better, his recent performances did indeed seem to cloud his market. As I wrote in that piece last week, there were legitimate reasons to be concerned.

In July, batters are hitting .288/.331/.540 against him. The .363 wOBA he’s allowed is his second-highest monthly total in his career, behind only July of 2014 (.379 wOBA allowed), which preceded him being shut down for the rest of that season, and then he was diagnosed with a torn UCL before the 2015 season began. It’s fair to say that a healthy Darvish has never had as bad a month as he’s having right now, at least from a results perspective.

So Darvish’s stock has to be down at least a little bit. We’ve already seen prices for rentals down significantly this year, and the Rangers were already unlikely to land a monster return due to Darvish’s impending free agency.

While Darvish is a very good pitcher, he’s also running the lowest strikeout rate and highest home-run rate of his career, and his in-season trends aren’t that encouraging. If a team was already a bit queasy about paying a premium for a rental, Darvish’s recent performances didn’t do anything to help convince anyone to overpay.

So the Rangers were selling a struggling pitcher in a buyer’s market. It just isn’t realistic to think they were going to get what David Price brought Detroit in 2015.

But even with those limitations, it’s not like the Rangers settled for nothing here. This isn’t the J.D. Martinez trade. Willie Calhoun, in particular, could be an underrated pickup for Texas.

Yes, he’s short, he’s stocky, and no one really wants to stick him at second base in the big leagues. His defensive limitations are why he’s consistently ranked in the 75-100 range on prospect lists, despite an offensive profile that portends potential excellence. But it’s also not entirely certain that those rankings are correctly penalizing him for his defensive limitations, especially when you consider how other bat-only prospects have been treated.

For instance, let’s take Josh Bell. This is what Eric Longenhagen wrote about him when he ranked him as the 50th-best prospect in baseball.

Bell’s well-rounded combination of on-base ability, bat-to-ball skills and in-game power is strong enough to profile at any position, including first base. He’s a bad defender and hasn’t made the strides many hoped he would during the year and a half he’s taken reps there. Purely on offensive value, he projects as an above-average regular. If he ever becomes a competent defender at first or somehow moves back to the outfield, he’ll be more than that. I’m not sure either of those is going to happen.

That’s a pretty similar profile to Calhoun, except Bell’s defense was being derided at the lowest spot on the fielding spectrum; there wasn’t much hope he could move anywhere else. And he ranked 50th on our list before the year began, despite offensive performances in the minors that were inferior to what Calhoun has put up.

And Eric was actually the low man on Bell, rankings wise. Baseball America ranked him 35th before the season. MLB.com ranked him 20th. BP ranked him 25th.

While there’s obvious physical projection differences with Bell, who is at least four inches taller than Calhoun, Calhoun already is showing the power that Bell’s height allowed projection for, and his contact skills appear even better. And neither one of them were getting any credit for providing value in the field.

But Calhoun consistently ranks 50-60 spots lower, likely due to the fact that there just aren’t that many short power hitters out there. Calhoun is an anomaly, and it’s not easy to look at him and imagine exactly what kind of big leaguer he’ll turn into, since not many big leaguers look like Willie Calhoun.

But if he was a few inches taller, he’d probably be eliciting some Daniel Murphy comparisons. The skillsets are pretty similar, even if Calhoun’s a bit more extreme version of the “oh God you’re playing him at second base?” aspect of things. But Murphy’s turned himself into one of the best players in baseball despite being a defensive liability at second base, because his contact-and-power offensive game allows you to overlook some groundballs rolling into the outfield.

We probably won’t see Calhoun at second base in Texas, given that they have Rougned Odor, and Jon Daniels suggested they’d develop him as an outfielder. Again, there’s not much confidence in the game that he’ll be very good out there, but then again, there wasn’t much confidence that Kyle Schwarber would be able to handle left field when he was getting ranked as an untouchable elite prospect either. For taller hitters with more of a pedigree, the lack of defensive value doesn’t seem to translate into the same kind of rankings it has produced for Calhoun.

And Calhoun’s offensive performances suggest that he might have that kind of elite offensive value. He ranked 15th on the stats-only version of KATOH’s mid-season Top 100, and even when accounting for the public rankings, he was 24th on KATOH+. Even with a significant penalty for his defensive flaws, KATOH is kind of in love with Calhoun. Here’s the probability distribution chart that Chris will show you in his forthcoming projection piece on the Rangers’ return for Darvish.

Based on his minor league performances, KATOH thinks there’s legitimate star potential here. This isn’t just a guy with an okay bat; guys who hit for this combination of contact and power, at these ages and levels, become impact big leaguers on a pretty regular basis.

The fact that he’s a bit of a unique player matters, as there’s more uncertainty with guys like this then with guys who fit a more traditional profile. And it’s folly to conclude that every short guy has the same upside as taller hitters just because Jose Altuve has turned into a monster. Altuve is amazing because we’ve never really seen anything like him, and not every short slugger is now Altuve 2.0.

But we all whiffed on Altuve in part because too much was made of his height, and not enough of his ability to just barrel the baseball. The industry mostly missed on Daniel Murphy even after he broke out against big league pitching, because he doesn’t really look like a second baseman either. The reality is that if Calhoun hits like his numbers suggest he might hit, he’s probably going to be a lot more valuable than a bunch of other guys who were regularly ranked higher than he was.

So if Calhoun is really more like the 50th best prospect in baseball, instead of the 90th best prospect in baseball, then this return isn’t all that different from deals for rental aces we’ve seen before. The Rangers weren’t in a great spot to turn Darvish into a huge haul, but there’s a pretty good case to be made that they didn’t really sell Darvish light here, even in a buyer’s market. Calhoun is a pretty nice return for any rental, even a pitcher as good as Yu Darvish.





Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.

120 Comments
Oldest
Newest Most Voted
Free Clay Zavada
9 years ago

It’s certainly a better scenario than holding onto Darvish, which pretty much everyone thought happened at 4 EST yesterday. So I don’t think Rangers fans should be too upset.

Member since 2016
9 years ago

So if you ignore the defensive issues that caused him to be rated lower, he would be rated higher and return would look OK.

Beefcake
9 years ago
Reply to 

That was the whole point of the Josh Bell comparison. He’s rated much lower than Bell when they profile very similarly based on results.

showerdeer
9 years ago
Reply to  Beefcake

But you have to be tall to play first

JimmieFoXX
9 years ago
Reply to  showerdeer

“While there’s obvious physical projection differences with Bell, who is at least four inches taller than Calhoun”

Josh Bell is 6’2″. Calhoun is 5’6″. That’s EIGHT inches not four.

Josh Bell has a physique that resembles Dick Allen.

Dave Cameron needs an intervention to get off the oxys the doctor hooked him on after surgery.

AJ pro-Preller
9 years ago
Reply to  JimmieFoXX

Agree, Josh Bell is gonna look like Albert Belle in a few years with proper weight training.

deltaclownMember since 2023
9 years ago
Reply to  AJ pro-Preller

I disagree; I see him as more of George Bell/Derek Bell type of hitter.

bmcalary23Member since 2025
9 years ago
Reply to  JimmieFoXX

Calhoun is listed as 5’8 dipshit. Go back to third grade math and learn 1-10 please.

showerdeer
9 years ago
Reply to  bmcalary23

stop being butthurt everyone

piddy
9 years ago
Reply to 

I think the point is not just the defensive issues but also the body type. It’s easier to discount the bat when he looks nothing like a prototypical slugger.

Member since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  piddy

I don’t necessarily think the bat is being discounted. The problem is that unlike most bat-only prospects (Bell, for instance), Calhoun is so short that first base isn’t an option for him. So he either beats the odds and sticks at a position no one expects him to stick at like 2B or LF, or he’s a DH.

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to 

Perhaps I have been blinded by the value of a pure DH. Any player who can hit, with the exception of Wily Mo Pena, has a place on an American League team. Now I am not predicting 14 years of 30+ HR’s for Calhoun but it makes sense to just say “Willie you are our DH for the next dozen years, don’t worry about your defense” and hope he pans out. That approach worked for one team that was very successful. Trying to give regulars a quasi day off by rotating them through the DH has never seemed to work. A sub is playing and the benched regular is not accustomed to the DH role.

southie
9 years ago

His next contract won’t carry much (if any) surplus value and there was no guarantee he would stay anyway. This is a good trade for both sides.

asreitzMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  southie

It’s possible, but it still doesn’t explain how the Yankees had to give up more for S. Gray, than the Dodgers did for Y. Darvish. It also doesn’t explain, how the Cubs parted w/ arguably the best power hitting prospect in a few years for J. Quintana. Fact is, the Rangers messed up and we have multiple trades in recent history that shows just that.

mattMember since 2023
9 years ago
Reply to  asreitz

Seriously? Are you unaware of Yu and Sonny’s contract situation?

asreitzMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  matt

Sonny Gray is league average, I don’t care if he’s club controlled for a couple seasons. People latch on to contracts as if these owners aren’t billionaires. Darvish is a true difference maker in a short series. Sonny Gray?Meh. The Dodgers are Top 3 teams in baseball, Sonny Gray does nothing to up their chances of winning the WS. Sorry, money isn’t the only motivation for these clubs.

victorvran
9 years ago
Reply to  asreitz

I think you are on the wrong site.

asreitzMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  matt

Your rebuttal is Sonny Gray is cheaper than Yu…??

pwr8195
9 years ago

Dave, I know you were pretty insistent Dodgers didnt need Darvish. So does giving up this asset still seem excessive to you or was the price low enough where you thought it made sense?

fjtorres
9 years ago
Reply to  pwr8195

Where would Calhoon play for the Dodgers?
Not 2B, not 1B, and probably not of, which is getting crowded.
No Dh means he is less useful to LA than to Texas.
Old school trades are built that way: one team’s excess is the other team’s contributor.

As for LA, they might not have needed him but they can use him. And he’s less likely to pull up lame than their current starters. They turned something they couldn’t use into, at a minimum, injury insurance.

asreitzMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  pwr8195

Dave is a Dodgers homer, he still thinks Ryu/McCarthy/Maeda still have value. Regardless, the Dodgers absolutely needed another SP w/ Kershaw ailing and the big question mark that is Rich Hill. This Dodgers team is ready to compete for a WS this year. You can’t roll in to the playoffs “hoping” Kershaw is his normal self and that Rich Hill’s blister problems don’t pop up again. Imagine Alex Wood as the ace of a WS hopeful w/ Maeda and Ryu as 2/3. Darvish was not a luxury, he was a necessity.

AJ pro-Preller
9 years ago
Reply to  asreitz

on this feed full of Dodger fans (including the author), and an objective opinion, finally! thank you sir

phpope
9 years ago
Reply to  asreitz

Yes, removing the two best pitchers from any team probably leaves that team needing another good starter.

Stellar GM-ing there.

AJ pro-Preller
9 years ago
Reply to  phpope

Several had already told me so ask your fellow Dodgers fans they will tell you Buelher and Stewart are your 4 & 5. LOL. Now that is stellar GM-ing: they were kinda good in AA & AAA, so time to dominate MLB!
he just stated the obvious or not so obvious to Dodger fans

phpope
9 years ago
Reply to  AJ pro-Preller

No one anywhere is saying that Buelher and Stewart are the Dodger’s fourth and fifth starters. Not this season, not this playoffs, not next year. The most anyone said anywhere on this thread is that they have the potential to perform at that level next season, along with two or three other guys on the roster.

But if you got receipts, bring ’em.

Johnston
9 years ago
Reply to  phpope

If this place is going to become the playground of ignorant and offensive Padres fans then it will soon have one less of me.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
9 years ago
Reply to  Johnston

First Giants fans, now Padres fans…

AJ pro-Preller
9 years ago
Reply to  phpope

yes, and I am saying Buehler/Stewart DO NOT have that potential next season.(you’re a fan boy if you think they do) I am saying you will sign two more high priced pitching free agents this winter. I am saying you have just about depleted your farm system the past two years on rental pitchers. I am saying y’all better win it this year or $$$$, late 90’s Yankees look alike contest the Dodgers will win.

ChippersJonesing
9 years ago
Reply to  AJ pro-Preller

Just… just stop.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
9 years ago

I think the Rangers got fair value, and would have even in the context of past deadline deals. Calhoun is a special bat (as KATOH and Dave argue here) and has the chance to be a real difference-maker. That level of power with so few strikeouts is gold. I’ve long thought the Josh Bell comparison is apt, too–except that some people thought Bell could turn into a decent first baseman (or right fielder) with some reps. Calhoun’s chances of sticking anywhere in the field is really low. On the other hand, he’s got more power than Bell did while having similar offensive skills otherwise. And I agree that he’s being underrated because he’s short too.

And Darvish is a good starter, and he could start a wild-card game if you needed him too, but he’s still not on the same level as David Price or Zack Greinke were when they were traded. Frankly, this deal looks better to me than the Greinke deal (Calhoun is a better prospect than Segura was at the time) anyway.

The one issue is whether the Rangers really want to re-sign Darvish. Trading away a player you want to re-sign always brings up memories of Jon Lester. If that’s the case and it hurts them re-signing Darvish, then I don’t like the trade for the Rangers that much. But I still think the Rangers received fair value regardless.

JimmieFoXX
9 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

” Trading away a player you want to re-sign always brings up memories of Jon Lester.”

For me it brings up memories of Aroldis Chapman.

jdbolickMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Darvish is a good starter, and he could start a wild-card game if you needed him too, but he’s still not on the same level as David Price or Zack Greinke were when they were traded.

As phealy48 pointed out in the other discussion of this deal, Texas was one of the worst framing teams in the league this season. Darvish’s velocity, swinging strike rate, hard contact percentage, and contact rates are all still where they have been. His strikeout rate has dipped because of something out of his own control.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
9 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

He’s not on the same level as Greinke or Price were then because Greinke and Price were incredible. Darvish is still a huge get for any staff, but those guys were insanely good.

jdbolickMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I think Greinke with the Brewers was pretty comparable to Darvish, and Segura was a higher ranked prospect back then (#55) than Calhoun is now (#92).

sadtromboneMember since 2020
9 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

Depends on the outlet. There were some that didn’t have them in the Top 100, others had him as high as #42.

johansantana17Member since 2026
9 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

His velocity is actually at a career high by quite a bit

jdbolickMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  johansantana17

0.2 mph lower than last season, but ~1 mph over his first two seasons.

evo34Member since 2023
9 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

If it was true that a half-season is the best predictor of future performance, you might have a point. Fortunately, most teams have evolved beyond this mentality.

Deacon DrakeMember since 2017
9 years ago

So he’s Matt Stairs?

evo34Member since 2023
9 years ago
Reply to  Deacon Drake

Maybe down the road he will be. Stairs had quite a different path, though. He was undrafted (played in Canada after HS), was showing almost no power at age 22 in the minors, and didn’t play his first full MLB season until age 29.

ShauncoreMember since 2019
9 years ago

What does it hurt to roll Calhoun at 2B every day, even if you know he’s bad?

2B defense has never been something I cared a bunch for (sometimes I feel it gets a worse reputation than 1B) and there have been several quality major leaguers who have been awful defenders at 2B and made it work:

Dan Uggla
Todd Walker
Jose Vidro
Neil Walker
Rougned Odor

I’m not comparing Calhoun to him, but it’s not like Jose Altuve is a great defender either.

If he can run a 105-110 wRC+ most years (and Steamer gives him a 94 wRC+ as a 22yo in MLB) and not be terrible on the bases, even if he’s 5-10 runs below average defensively it seems like that would be a league average player.

LHPSU
9 years ago
Reply to  Shauncore

Would he be as bad as they are, or even worse? The worst defenders get moved off before they make it to the major leagues.

ShauncoreMember since 2019
9 years ago
Reply to  LHPSU

Right, I’m not sure how bad Calhoun is at 2B.

Clay Davenport’s numbers have him as anywhere between a -6 defender this year so far and a -24 defender last year in a full season of AA.

So, he’s bad, but what’s the point where your above league average, but not elite, hitting can hide that poor of defense?

Davenport has him a little better in LF, but doesn’t seem like it would be enough to counteract the 10 run swing from 2B to LF in position adjustment.

AJ pro-Preller
9 years ago
Reply to  Shauncore

Recent Example: The Braves rolled Swanson out there for almost a whole season,(bad defensively, thought to have a good hit tool but was wrong) they might actually be in the wild card hunt if it wasn’t for him.

ChippersJonesing
9 years ago
Reply to  AJ pro-Preller

Nope, none of that is true.

jdbolickMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  Shauncore

Calhoun is terrible on the bases and he’s even worse defensively than any of those names. Believe me, I get why people keep wanting that bat to play at second base but it just isn’t happening.

JimMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  Shauncore

I saw Calhoun take some infield this spring; you do NOT want him at second base.

Johnston
9 years ago
Reply to  Jim

Calhoun simply can’t play 2B. He’s worse than awful. (Even if he could play it, which he cannot, Odor is and will be in the way.) Calhoun will play OF or DH.

pumpsie greenMember since 2022
9 years ago

Maddening that the other GM’s didn’t put up much of a fight against the Dodgers and Yankees at this deadline. No one could muster up anything better for Darvish? None of the other AL East clubs could do anything about Gray going for such a flimsy return? The future
of Baltimore’s starting rotation looks bleak, Toronto and Tampa should be all over a guy like Gray, and even Boston should have done something to drive the price up. Everyone knew Beane was trading Gray, and everyone knew he was talking to Cashman. They don’t mind facing him 45 times at bargain rates over the next 2.3 years, and they don’t mind that the Yankees get to keep all their top prospects? I don’t get it.

dickfuldMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  pumpsie green

Maybe the Rays had the expendable prospects the Yankees had. The O’s and red Sox system is pretty barren, the jays super studs are years away but better than what the Yankees gave up. Makes the most sense to add Gray with Archer while developing a young core of Faria/Honeywell and whomever makes it out of de Leon and Snell.

JimmieFoXX
9 years ago
Reply to  pumpsie green

“The future of Baltimore’s starting rotation looks bleak”

Not as bleak as their farm system. The Orioles rebuild could be a really long one. Their farm people show little aptitude and Peter Angelos thinks farm prospects should be free.

That’s a formula that has always produced failure.

Aaron Judge's Gavel
9 years ago
Reply to  pumpsie green
johansantana17Member since 2026
9 years ago

Wondering why .3 years of Darvish and 2.3 years of Gray were traded for similar-looking returns is a totally fair question. Making fun of people with memes for asking fair questions is pretty childish.

Aaron Judge's Gavel
9 years ago
Reply to  johansantana17

“similar-looking returns”… huh? That’s just not accurate.

and “Maddening that the other GM’s didn’t put up much of a fight” … it’s almost as if no team besides LAD was willing to pay the price of a Darvish rental. And I’m guessing that no other team was willing to give up multiple top prospects to get Gray? Look at the types of moves that Tampa made, and the type of budget they have to keep. They can’t afford to give up multiple young guys for just 2.5 yrs of a good starter (unless they were in better position this year). Baltimore doesn’t have the goods. TOR is in the same boat as TB. No team is going to waste the rest of this year of Gray for the price it would have taken. Let’s say TB gives up multiple prospects, and then misses the WC this year, and then next year they’re again stuck around .500. And now without as many young reinforcements coming up. I don’t think they want to give up much to maybe get to a wild card game. Boston should have done something to drive up the price? So if Beane tries to bluff the Yanx into giving up more, and the Yanx say “no thanks, price is too high for us” and BOS was never serious about giving up what it’d take, then what? I don’t think “driving up the price” is as easy to do as you think it is in trade talks.

And yeah it may be a meme, but Principal Skinner is just illustrating the “I know better and everyone else is stupid/wrong” line of thinking. Yes, ‘every other GM is bad at their job’ doesn’t seem likely here.

pumpsie greenMember since 2022
9 years ago

By most accounts, the reliever market last year was a seller’s market, and the Yankees capitalized big-time by sanitizing Chapman and flipping him for an unbalanced return. Magically, this year is a buyer’s market, and who happens to be buying? I’m not trying to be critical of your Yankees, AJG; in fact, I’m really wondering why the other GM’s aren’t following their lead. Buy when the rich are buying and sell when the rich are selling seems like a sound strategy.

Aaron Judge's Gavel
9 years ago
Reply to  pumpsie green

“the reliever market last year was a seller’s market, and the Yankees capitalized big-time… this year is a buyer’s market”

I think you hit it right on the head there, and it is a good point. It is definitely extremely fortunate that the Yanx happened to go on a losing streak last year right before it was time to make the sell/hold decision, and it wound up being a crazy good seller’s market, with a team that was willing to overpay to break a century-long title drought.

I think we keep seeing a lot of “…but the return was too light” this year because we all remember what Chapman and Miller got back last year. But the way the division races have panned out so far (many large leads) has meant less buyers/demand to drive up the price, and when you couple that with a plentiful supply of available relievers, then you get a buyer’s market that has way lower prices than last year. The Yanx were supposed to be sellers again this year, but the Red Sox have underperformed while the Yanx have overperformed which has put them in the unlikely position of being buyers this year. Did any other team go from seller last year to buyer this year? As you point out, the Yanx sure were fortunate to be in the proper position (and have the necessary assets) to take full advantage of each.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
9 years ago

The Brewers actually were sort of in this position, although they didn’t buy much this year. The D-Backs were, but they screwed it up because Dave Stewart. It seems like there were only three big buyers this year (Dodgers, Cubs, Yankees)

pumpsie greenMember since 2022
9 years ago

You and I both see the same thing, then. Why don’t the other GMs see it? They all have assets, too. And there aren’t many that would tell their fans they have to wait until 2020 or later to be in a position to make a push for the playoffs.

johansantana17Member since 2026
9 years ago

I don’t think the competition for Gray had to come from the AL East… he made a lot of sense for Houston, Milwaukee, Chicago and LA.

asreitzMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  pumpsie green

Must be a TON of Dodgers fans in here…Why is this comment getting downvoted? NYY and LAD should have had to pay more for Gray and Darvish. The market failed on this one. Cubs giving up Eloy for Quintana has been the market the last couple years. Right or wrong.

AJ pro-Preller
9 years ago

Real Question: if they don’t win it this year, how screwed are they next year? Personally, I do not like the rotation outside of Kershaw obviously, who hurt his back two years running in different places, (if that isn’t a red flag idk what is) or line-up moving forward…time to open up the wallets yet again??

sadtromboneMember since 2020
9 years ago
Reply to  AJ pro-Preller

They have 8 (?) pitchers for 5 spots. They’ll figure something out.

Lineup is probably fine. Seager/Bellinger/Turner/Pederson/Grandal all coming back. Taylor likely to fall off, but they still have Forsythe. Puig and Hernandez are okay stopgraps. Verdugo is probably ready and might even be good. Still too left-handed and could use another top-notch outfielder but that’s barely a weakness.

AJ pro-Preller
9 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Name the 8 pitchers…only 2 of them are any good
dont give me Kazmir or Madea either good luck with that…

“but they still have Forsythe…”

No GM or club manager has ever thought this LOL

Dirkdiggles
9 years ago
Reply to  AJ pro-Preller

Kershaw, Wood, Hill, Mccarthy, Ryu, Maeda, Stewart, Walker Buehler. Gee what a horrible rotation. The best pitcher in baseball, 2 starters whove been elite the last 2 years, 3 or 4 4/5 starters whove performed better than that on occasion and arguably the best pitching prospect in baseball.

Stop trolling your not good at it.

AJ pro-Preller
9 years ago
Reply to  Dirkdiggles

did you say Stewart, Walker, & Buehler, ok yea right LOL

sadtromboneMember since 2020
9 years ago
Reply to  Dirkdiggles

Don’t know if Buehler will be ready, but decent chance that Kazmir or Urias makes it back.

AJ pro-Preller
9 years ago
Reply to  Dirkdiggles

“…Hill, Mccarthy, Ryu, Maeda, Stewart, Walker Buehler. Gee what a horrible rotation.”

Agreed.

careaganMember since 2017
9 years ago
Reply to  AJ pro-Preller

All of those pitchers are better than any starters the Padres have dude. Buehler is a better prospect than Quantrill right now. Espinoza blew out his arm.

AJ pro-Preller
9 years ago
Reply to  careagan

Every pitcher has TJ…dude.

careaganMember since 2017
9 years ago
Reply to  AJ pro-Preller

Yeah dude Buehler is one of them, as is Quantrill. Both came back. Espinoza hasn’t yet, just like Urias hasn’t from shoulder surgery. You can’t bank on either of those guys fulfilling their potential at this point. The Dodgers injury prone starters are superior to the nothing the Padres have in terms of team controlled big league starters beyond this season. The Padres rotation is a bunch of absolute garbage rentals right now. You are banking on a farm system that isn’t significantly better than the Dodgers farm as the basis for your belief that the Dodgers will suck and the Padres will be awesome in 2-3 years.

Ivdown
9 years ago
Reply to  AJ pro-Preller

This is confusing to me.
Kershaw – 4 fWAR 141 IP
Wood – 3.2 fWAR 98 IP
Mccarthy – 2.2 fWAR 86 IP
Hill – 1.5 fWAR 78 IP
Maeda – 1.3 fWAR 88 IP

Each one of these pitchers is projected for more than 2 fWAR per 150 innings with how they’ve pitched this season. Nearly all of them are actually projected at 3 with Hill coming just short and Maeda being in the low 2s.

Unless what you mean by “good” is “great”, because only Kershaw and Wood are great, that’s true. The rest are just above average to good.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
9 years ago
Reply to  AJ pro-Preller

I guess Fan Gaff / JUICEMANE has a new name?

AJ pro-Preller
9 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

who? somebody just said that Buelher who was in AA this season is gonna be in the Dodgers starting rotation next year, idk what kind of wacky world this is where people vehemently agree with this.

Dirkdiggles
9 years ago
Reply to  AJ pro-Preller

Buehler is at Triple A but even if he was at AA that wouldnt preclude him going to the bigs next year. Plenty of big time pitchers do n Buehler is big time

AJ pro-Preller
9 years ago
Reply to  Dirkdiggles

he has pitched a total of 10 innings in AAA this season. I can’t believe you thought that was a valid point. who the heck am i talking to?

“Plenty of big time pitchers do…”
name two this year, name two from last year. it may happen but is RARE

Dirkdiggles
9 years ago
Reply to  AJ pro-Preller

A team on a 114 win pace, with a top 5 farm, with two elite milb prospects mlb ready and who loses 40 million in payroll is screwed? Ok

wily moMember since 2020
9 years ago
Reply to  Dirkdiggles

will be bringing back largely the same team as the one that’s been winning almost every game for the past like two months… ethier and carl crawford money finally expires this winter… yep. totally screwed

AJ pro-Preller
9 years ago
Reply to  wily mo

talk to me at this point next season…

AJ pro-Preller
9 years ago
Reply to  Dirkdiggles

payroll is going way up this winter, who wants to be the next Rich Hill @ 16 mil a year? they are gonna need 2 more SP @ 20 mil/year this winter. That doesn’t even address the outfield… they are gonna look like the late 90’s Yanks.

csw117
9 years ago
Reply to  AJ pro-Preller

“they are gonna look like the late 90’s Yanks”

Oh no. How ever will they cope?

careaganMember since 2017
9 years ago
Reply to  AJ pro-Preller

Setting aside the rotation, what don’t you like about the lineup? Seager and Bellinger are former top prospects performing like MVP candidates, Turner has hit like this since 2014-2015, Grandal and Barnes are very good offensive catchers, Joc is an above average hitter in center, and Puig is inconsistent but has shown promise this year. Taylor is playing over his head but his level is yet to be determined. On top of that, Dodgers likely will open their pocket books after 2018 for Machado or Harper.

AJ pro-Preller
9 years ago
Reply to  careagan

Seager, Turner and Bellinger, that’s all you have that other teams want. Nobody is interested in Grandal, on this site maybe but I’m talking real life. You will open the wallets up then, this winter and next, that was the original question.

careaganMember since 2017
9 years ago
Reply to  AJ pro-Preller

I guess I don’t see paying for premium talent as a bad thing? My point was that they will open their wallet but the offense they add to will already be good with Seager and Bellinger in it. There’s also quite a few talented outfield prospects in the minors with Verdugo the closest but Diaz and Peters not too far off. You can hate the Dodgers if you want and think they’ll suck in a few years, hell none of us know what will happen then. But that’s a contrarian opinion that to me seems based more on bias than numbers and player evaluations so don’t be surprised when people disagree with you.

AJ pro-Preller
9 years ago
Reply to  careagan

“so don’t be surprised when people disagree with you.”

no surprised that (People=Dodgers fans) disagree with me.

phpope
9 years ago
Reply to  AJ pro-Preller

Just based on the red numbers next to your rants, it seems like almost 100% of (people=not you) disagree with you.

TommyLasordid
9 years ago
Reply to  AJ pro-Preller

Did you star in that movie Clueless?

victorvran
9 years ago
Reply to  AJ pro-Preller

Is this JUICEMAINE’s third account?

jdbolickMember since 2016
9 years ago

To be clear, Willie Calhoun is not just a “liability” at second base, any video of him playing the field there has to be accompanied by the Benny Hill theme song. He makes Daniel Murphy look like Dustin Pedroia. He might be the worst fielding second baseman in the minor leagues and should not be considered even a possible second baseman at the major league level.

That being said, I really do think the best major league comp for Calhoun is Prince Fielder. He’s a mini-me version and therefore won’t ever be hitting 40+ home runs, but the swings are similar, they both had a great eye for the strike zone, and they both generated impressive power without sacrificing contact. But the problem with prospects like Calhoun is that having strongly negative defensive and base running value means that the bat absolutely has to be special. Calhoun’s looks special and you really couldn’t ask anything more of him in the minor leagues, so I hope he gets called up sooner than later, but everything is riding on his ability to combine power with contact at the major league level because he doesn’t bring anything else to the table.

YKnotDisco
9 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

Good call on the Prince Fielder swing comp. Really the only difference is Calhoun tries to pull everything. Fielder was able to use the whole field.

Sad that his career was cut short. He sure was fun to watch.

Psychic... Powerless...
9 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

“…the bat absolutely has to be special. …everything is riding on his ability to combine power with contact at the major league level because he doesn’t bring anything else to the table.”

These words could also apply to Kyle Schwarber.

jdbolickMember since 2016
9 years ago

Schwarber has actually been surprisingly good in left field because of his arm and is neutral or slightly positive on the bases. Calhoun is strongly negative in the field and on the bases.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
9 years ago

Schwarber could theoretically move to first though, and DRS and UZR disagree dramatically on whether he’s good in left field. At the minimum, it seems like he can fake it there.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
9 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

I think that in the current live-ball era, we could see all kinds of unexpected people clobbering 40+ homers. That doesn’t negate your point that he’ll never have Fielder’s power (a high bar), just that I wouldn’t be surprised if he gets a boost in the current environment.

TommyLasordid
9 years ago

Seems like a classic win-win trade to me. Dodgers got exactly what they need, creating incredible depth (and insurance) in starting pitching and a full two months to figure out the optimal use of all of these arms for a playoff run. They gave up an intriguing player, but one who has much greater value to Texas than to LA due to Dodgers remaining wealth of prospects and Calhoun’s defensive deficiencies. Meanwhile, Texas gave up a rental with virtually no value to them (they aren’t going anywhere in 2017) for what appears to be a strong bat, DH at a minimum, and two other long shots.

Nicely done.

Finally, there’s one other number to remember: 1988. I think folks underestimate the need for the Dodgers to make an “all-in” statement to their fan base and gamble on the return of an elite Darvish. Kershaw, Darvish, Hill and Wood, with Maeda/Ryu/McCarthy in reserve to mix and match depending on the opponent (and health, of course), is a pretty good place to be.

RonnieDobbs
9 years ago

Willie Calhoun will be a low/negative WAR player. It is an odd point to make, but it will always hurt his perceived value. The Dodgers did well to ship him off for anything useful. I think they sold him high. I like Calhoun, but the sabermetric community probably won’t. Even if he is an excellent hitter he will be knocked because of his un-WAR-friendly profile. His base-running and defense won’t be assets – the defense will almost certainly be negative. WAR doesn’t recognize K aversion. I guess my point is, regardless of what he does in the MLB his value is either going to plummet or he will be underappreciated.

piddy
9 years ago
Reply to  RonnieDobbs

“WAR doesn’t recognize K aversion”
Huh? The less you strike out the more chances you have to get on base.

LHPSU
9 years ago
Reply to  RonnieDobbs

An out in the field is better than a strikeout in two ways only:
1. Advancing a baserunner
2. Reaching base via error

Everything else is accounted for in WAR calculation, so ask yourself how much these two points actually matter.

johansantana17Member since 2026
9 years ago

I agree with all of this, which makes it even more perplexing that Oakland took a package with zero prospects as good as Calhoun for a pitcher with two more years of cheap control than Darvish.

The Dodgers didn’t steal Yu Darvish, but the Yankees sure as hell stole Sonny Gray.

jdbolickMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  johansantana17

Individual preference will vary, but all three of the players Oakland received are viewed similarly to Calhoun in prospect value, even after the injuries.

LHPSU
9 years ago
Reply to  johansantana17

Every major prospect ranking has both Jorge Mateo and James Kaprielian higher than Calhoun.

johansantana17Member since 2026
9 years ago
Reply to  LHPSU

Incorrect.

Eric’s FV ratings for the prospects traded at the deadline (posted yesterday) gives Calhoun a 55 FV rating and Mateo and Kaprielian a 50 FV rating (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/ranking-the-prospects-traded-during-deadline-season/).

MLB.com’s midseason top 100 list has Calhoun at #69 while Mateo and Kaprielian are unranked (http://m.mlb.com/prospects/2017).

Baseball America’s midseason top 100 list has Calhoun at #74 while Mateo and Kaprielian are unranked. (http://www.baseballamerica.com/minors/2017-midseason-top-100-prospects-july-7/#Oqb0EIljizPvPFUz.97)

Pre-season prospect rankings are not relevant anymore, especially since Mateo struggled badly earlier this season and Kaprielian underwent TJS…

asreitzMember since 2016
9 years ago

The problem is not just that the Rangers traded Darvish (a Top 20 SP) to the best team in baseball for a DH only prospect and a pair of nickels, it’s that they traded him to a team that will absolutely make him consider staying, and not returning to TX, if that is in fact the Rangers plan. The Dodgers are one of the 3 best teams in baseball. They play in one of the largest asian markets in the country and well, it’s LA. Rangers will never see Darvish again, which is ok. But they needed to get more if they’re sending him to LA.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
9 years ago
Reply to  asreitz

I understand where you’re going with this and agree that this hurts their chances of resigning him, but there’s no guarantee the Dodgers even want to give Darvish the 5+ year contract he’s going to want. If you’ll notice how the Dodgers operate these days, they prefer shorter deals with higher AAV.

AJ pro-Preller
9 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Dodgers gonna be giving out A LOT of 5+ year contracts this winter…Darvish probably #1 on the list.

evo34Member since 2023
9 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Well, it’s pretty clear they’re not that interested in re-signing him. I’m sure they would not have made the deal if they thought he was better than his projected asking price this winter.

Fanthead
9 years ago

“Willie Calhoun, in particular, could be an underrated pickup for Texas…. [H]e’s consistently ranked in the 75-100 range on prospect lists….”

Prior to the 2017 season, Fangraphs had Willie Calhoun at #89, Baseball America had him at #92, and John Sickels at #102.

But Ralph Lifshitz at Razzball ranked Calhoun at #18 and Michael Halpern at Imaginary Brick Wall had Calhoun at #20.

I value all these sources and I doubt I am the only one here who pays attention to the analysis of Lifshitz and Halpern.

evo34Member since 2023
9 years ago
Reply to  Fanthead

While I agree with you, it should be noted that those two lists are for fantasy purposes only. I.e., they ignore defense.

jdbolickMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  Fanthead

I’ve never heard of Lifshitz or Halpern, but anyone who had Calhoun that high was strictly evaluating the stat line and didn’t realize that Willie has no chance of playing second base in the major leagues.

superhtown
9 years ago

Also, about Altuve:
You can’t predict that a player will improve like he has. His first ~1000 PAs he was a below average player.

mjroberts222
9 years ago
Reply to  superhtown

below average how? I would say his career stats aren’t too shabby if you consider he broke in at age 21 and the astros were historically bad between 2011 – 2013.

Johnston
9 years ago

What in the Hell has happened to FanGraphs? I come here for intelligent baseball discussions and tonight I find that some utterly ignorant Padre troll has wandered in and is trying to crap all over the place.

jdbolickMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  Johnston

It’s still better tham the Free AEC guy.

evo34Member since 2023
9 years ago

“So if Calhoun is really more like the 50th best prospect in baseball, instead of the 90th best prospect in baseball, then this return isn’t all that different from deals for rental aces we’ve seen before. ”

Do you realize that the difference between the expected WAR for the #50 prospect vs the #90 prospect is only about 1.2 wins over the first six MLB seasons (0.2 WAR/season)?

mjroberts222
9 years ago
Reply to  evo34

after the superstars and the guys that shouldn’t even be on major league rosters, is there a ton of variance between the other 80% of players?

dl80Member since 2020
9 years ago

I see the potential for a Jose Ramirez-type player. Same size, both can’t really handle second base (though Ramirez can at least fake it, I guess, or the Indians believe that). They run similar walk and K rates.

Ramirez didn’t tap into his power until this year, but they are actually only 2 years apart, so maybe Calhoun just got to it earlier.

Ramirez is somewhere between good and great at third base, so maybe Calhoun can manage that as well? Ramirez is also serviceable in the outfield.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
9 years ago
Reply to  dl80

Ramirez can fake a lot of positions and is pretty good at third. He makes a lot of contact, doesn’t have a ton of power. Calhoun has huge power, is s-l-o-w with a weak-ish arm, and can’t play any position right now and potentially ever. I don’t see them as similar at all.

LHPSU
9 years ago
Reply to  dl80

They are literally as similar as David Ortiz and Ichiro Suzuki. Ramirez has above-average speed. Calhoun has Jose Molina speed.

jdbolickMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  dl80

Calhoun is nothing like Jose Ramirez. Don’t go by his listed weight, look up some video, preferably some that shows him in the field or running the bases.

hbpetry
9 years ago

From what I read Darvish has been tipping off his fastball all season. A ray scout finally told someone.