The Eventual End of Jered Weaver
Let’s play a game. I’ll show you brief excerpts from Baseball Prospectus annual Jamie Moyer summaries, and you match them with the year. This is nothing against BP, of course. Everybody was always saying the same stuff. BP just happens to put everything in one convenient place, on Jamie Moyer’s player page. Off we go.
- “There may be no coming back from this.”
- “The end is near.”
- “He lives and dies with his control, and I expect him to be on life support by the end of his contract.”
- “As long as he keeps his control, he could pitch another three or four years at this level.”
The years, scrambled:
- 2000
- 2005
- 2001
- 1999
Go nuts! And then, when you’re finished, we can have a conversation about Jered Weaver.
Weaver just opened the season Monday, following a spring training in which he grew tired of answering questions about velocity. Which is entirely understandable — these questions have followed Weaver for years, and while it’s technically part of his job to deal with the media, that doesn’t mean he can’t occasionally voice his exasperation. Weaver has said time and time again that velocity isn’t important to him. For him, it’s all about mixing and location. He’s telling the truth and the numbers have mostly supported him. But I think it’s safe to say there are going to be more questions. These are fastballs. The word “fastballs” has “fast” in it.
Those images are kind of small. Let’s blow them up, shall we?
Monday afternoon, those weren’t unusual fastballs. Those were normal fastballs. According to the raw PITCHf/x data, Weaver threw but a single pitch north of 86 miles per hour. His heat mostly hovered around that line dividing the low-80s from the mid-80s, which qualifies it as heat that you’ve left out for a couple of hours. If Weaver’s fastball were actually that low, that would be a pretty significant drop.
At Brooks Baseball, on the other hand, calculations suggest that Weaver’s fastball was intact. By applying some corrections, those numbers indicate Weaver might not have really lost anything, but then, these calculations are also tricky so early in the year. There’s a chance the raw numbers aren’t being adjusted properly, which means it’s 2015 and we don’t know quite how hard Jered Weaver was actually throwing. Seemed particularly slow. Maybe wasn’t. We can still move forward.
Weaver’s defense is always that there’s more to pitching than throwing hard. And indeed, while his velocity has already been in decline, it’s not like it’s made a dramatic difference with regard to his contact rates:
Weaver’s best season is obvious, but it’s also something of an outlier. In 2010, Weaver struck out 26% of all batters. In no other year has he reached 22%. Nor has he ever fallen below 17%. So parts of his game have been mostly stable, yet we’re only describing the past. It stands to reason that, at some point, sinking velocity is no longer playable. Maybe Weaver can make it work at 87. Maybe he can make it work at 86, or 85. He’d be toast at, I don’t know, 50. And 60. And presumably 70. As the theory goes, diminishing velocity means a diminishing margin of error. When might Jered Weaver fall too far?
It’s helpful to try to find some precedent. Some other right-handed starting pitchers who’ve worked with particularly unremarkable fastballs. We’ll eliminate knuckleballers, of course. I went back to 2002 and decided to set an upper limit of 85mph for an average fastball. Weaver hasn’t officially dropped to this level yet, but there are warning signs, and he’s at least very close.
Obviously, there’s a small group of pitchers. Brian Lawrence is one of them, if you remember him. I see a lot of Livan Hernandez seasons, and some late-career John Burkett. Seeing the name “John Stephens” brought up some memories. The elephant in the sample: Greg Maddux. We have seven years of Maddux pitch data, over which his fastball averaged 84.7 miles per hour. He also rattled off more than 24 WAR. A righty starter can be quite good with a pedestrian fastball — he just needs to mix and locate like Greg Maddux. What’s the problem?
Weaver himself hinted at something, something simple but also informative:
“I’ve got to do a better job,” Weaver said. “A lot of pitches were up. I fell behind in counts. I had to pretty much battle the whole game.”
There’s more to the Jered Weaver story than his velocity. His fastball isn’t the only thing trending in the wrong direction. Following, Weaver’s rates of pitches thrown while ahead in the count, and, in parentheses, his MLB rank:
- 2010: 40.8% (5)
- 2011: 39.5% (11)
- 2012: 36.8% (54)
- 2013: 36.4% (73)
- 2014: 34.8% (99)
- [2015: 26.7%]
Weaver, at his peak, was always working ahead. Which was good for Weaver, as it’s good for any pitcher — hitters are more on the defensive, and more likely to swing at pitches in pitcher-friendly spots. As Weaver hasn’t worked ahead as often, the balance of power has shifted, and while the year-to-year shifts have been slight, taken together there are worrisome patterns. Weaver’s velocity is dropping, and he isn’t working ahead as much. Some of the latter might be due to the former, but it wouldn’t be a full explanation.
Simplified: Weaver’s margin of error is shrinking. When that happens for a pitcher, the key to compensating is by getting better about location. If anything, Weaver’s location is also getting a little worse. It was suggested in spring that Weaver was fighting his own mechanics a bit, since they’re unusually complicated. Maybe that was all nothing, but either his mechanics were off again Monday, or he was just really missing up and over the plate. There is a good version of Jered Weaver with a slow fastball, but we haven’t seen it in this brand-new regular season. And this fastball might well be slower than ever.
There’s no such thing as a soft-tosser who looks good in the highlights of a game like Monday’s. Weaver did just complete a spring with four walks and 23 strikeouts. And he’s definitely earned some benefit of the doubt. His fastball, though, might’ve lost another tick. And his command doesn’t seem to be taking strides forward. To quote another Moyer line that’s stuck with me for some reason for more than a decade:
As long as Jamie can hold it together, he’ll be outstanding, but the drop should be a hell of a toboggan ride.
Jeff made Lookout Landing a thing, but he does not still write there about the Mariners. He does write here, sometimes about the Mariners, but usually not.





So it appears that in the first gif, the batter went yard?
HR on the first GIF, ground rule double on the second
We know. Nobody watches the Mariners. =(
Brooks baseball also had Felix averaging 95mph on his fastball yesterday, which seems to be a couple ticks above where he was over the last couple of years. This makes me think that Brooks baseball may have been reading a little “hot” for that game (meaning that Weaver really was throwing in the low to mid 80s). Or maybe the gun on the TV feed for that game was a little slow and Felix was throwing unusually hard (and Weaver was throwing at something near last year’s velocity).
Yeah, comparing Brooks Baseball to the NESN feed for Buchholz yesterday it looks like they had him about 2mph faster than what I saw on NESN, not sure if this is a trend or not.
Brooks Baseball had Felix throwing his 4-seamer at 95.7mph, his sinker at 94.8mph, and his change at 91.4mph yesterday, all of which seem off pretty significantly based on the Safeco gun and my eye test.
I can’t even tell the speed of a pitch with these babies. See ball, hit ball.
Jeff, one of these days I predict you and I will be in the same place at the same time where beer is sold, and I’ll buy you one to say thanks for your great writing here and at USSM.
A toboggan? Riding a bicycle is better.
Wait, what were the answers to the Moyer quiz?
I noticed in the spring, and it carried over yesterday, that Weaver changed his motion. He doesn’t really turn his back to the hitter anymore before he throws. Weaver has always succeeded on deception and location. That has to take away some of his deception. I wonder the reason for the change.
I won’t say he isn’t in decline but, people have criticized his velocity since his days at Long Beach State.
When he was drafted they called him a solid #3 or #4 starter with #2 upside all because his velocity wasn’t on the same level as others.
Whenever I read anything about the demise of Jered Weaver, I always think that 2010-2012 was not the real Weaver, but rather 2009 was. Time will tell.
People question the velocity because crafty righthanders are weeded out of baseball before they ever make the majors. There probably are a few righthanded Jamie Moyers out there in the talent pool but they are never given the time to properly develop in today’s velocity-obsessed scouting.
Late-career Maddux is a tough comp, he still had wicked movement on all of his pitches in that stage and was the smartest pitcher of the modern era.
I wonder how much of Weaver’s fastball decline comes from switching almost exclusively to the Scot Shields “no seam” fastball? Its well known that Weaver abandoned his 4 seamer, which he used to throw respectably hard, for the greater movement of the no seamer. Perhaps throwing a few regular fastballs would improve his margin for error?