The Giants and the Skill Trap
The Giants are trying to trade for Giancarlo Stanton. To that end, Bobby Evans, Brian Sabean, and Bruce Bochy met with Stanton and his representatives in Los Angeles last night, the Marlins apparently willing to let some suitors make a pitch directly to Stanton, who possesses a no-trade clause. According to multiple reports, the Giants are willing to absorb either most or all of his remaining contract in order to compensate for the lack of high-end talent they have to offer, hoping to appeal to the Marlins’ desire to move as much money as possible rather than focus on talent brought back in return.
The reason the Giants are going all out for Stanton is pretty clear and is summed up in tweets like these:
Giancarlo Stanton in the 2nd half: 33 HR
Giants OFs (all of them) in 2nd half: 19 HR— Jayson Stark (@jaysonst) December 1, 2017
Giancarlo Stanton fits anywhere, but he'd fix Giants' biggest problem. HR rate has jumped for everyone but Giants in recent years. pic.twitter.com/cceuCADOdd
— JJ Cooper (@jjcoop36) November 30, 2017
The 2017 Giants were one of recent history’s weakest teams, in terms of power, once you adjust for the home-run spike that helped everyone else in baseball party like it was 1999. They hit just 123 homers as a team, 27 fewer than the next lowest total (recorded by the Pirates) and 98 fewer than the Dodgers, who won NL West. Thus, every rumor about Stanton and the Giants points out how much they need him, because he would fix the thing at which they were worst last year.
But that kind of thinking is often a trap. Believing that a team has to acquire one particular skill can lead front offices to ignore other reasonable paths toward improvement. Failing to recognize alternatives forces clubs to panic and pursue the irrational. The fear of missing out is real. But if the Giants think their only way forward to is to add an elite power hitter — and Stanton is really the most elite of power hitters — it could lead the team to a poor decision.
Stanton, of course, would instantly make the Giants better, as he would any team. But it’s not really true that the Giants have to acquire a home-run behemoth in order to win. At the end of the day, home-run total is only relevant to the degree it allows a club to score more runs than it allows. There are plenty of ways to outscore opponents, though, that don’t involve hitting home runs.
The untold story of the 2017 Giants isn’t that they had a weak lineup of slap hitters; it’s that they didn’t really make up for their lack of power in other ways. Low-power teams are at a disadvantage due to their lack of thump, but the trade-off they make is often increased athleticism, which allows for value to be made up on the bases and in the field. And it’s pretty common for speed-and-defense big leaguers also to make a lot of contact, as they try to make up with quantity of base hits what they lack in quality of them.
But almost none of that describes the 2017 Giants, either. They did run the fifth-lowest strikeout in baseball, but they were just two percentage points below the league average, not far enough away from the norm to make up for the lack of punch. And the win-without-power model relies not just on slapping a bunch of singles together, but also using the athleticism often gained by not focusing on sluggers to create value on the bases and in the field.
The 2017 Giants didn’t do any of that. They were below-average defensively by UZR and atrocious by DRS, and while Statcast is only measuring outfield range at the moment, it agrees more with the latter.
And they didn’t add much value on the bases either. Only 29% of their baserunners came around to score, the fourth-lowest percentage in the majors. Weak-hitting teams are less likely to drive in the baserunners they do get, of course, but good baserunning can make up for some of that weakness. For instance, Arizona scored 33% of their baserunners, the third-highest total in MLB, despite recording a 95 wRC+ as a team.
At the end of the day, the Giants fielded and ran like a team that had power but hit like a team that didn’t. That’s a bad combination, and the club won’t win until they fix those issues. But adding power isn’t the only way to improve the team’s overall production, and it’s often the most expensive.
For instance, let’s just say the Giants were willing to add something like $250 million in future payroll this winter. What else could they do besides trade for Stanton?
Well, we projected Lorenzo Cain to cost about $70 million, and he’d fix the team’s glaring hole in center field. Mike Moustakas is expected to cost about $85 to $95 million, and would amount to something like a +3 WAR upgrade over the team’s current void at third base, bringing that much-coveted power to the lineup, too. And there would still be enough left to sign another quality pitcher, maybe a decent back-end starter like Tyler Chatwood or CC Sabathia, or a bullpen upgrade like Mike Minor, Addison Reed, or Bryan Shaw.
Of course, part of the appeal of consolidating the spending into just Stanton’s deal is that it’s paid out over 10 years, the last seven of which might not even end up being a factor if Stanton opts out after the 2020 season. Stanton is due only $25 million in salary for 2018, and you won’t get Cain, Moustakas, and a pitcher to agree to split that salary for next year. The fact that so much of Stanton’s money comes way down the line — and might not come at all — makes him cost less than signing three free agents to shorter deals where the money is due in a shorter time frame.
But that’s one of the reasons deferred contracts have come into existence. The Nationals, of course, are the kings of deferred money in their contracts, but the Diamondbacks also used deferred money to sign Zack Greinke; the Orioles used it to re-sign Chris Davis; and the Brewers got Ryan Braun to take some deferred payments when he signed his extension to stay in Milwaukee. While they’d have to agree to increase the amount of guaranteed money to get multiple free agents to take deferred-money contracts, they still might be able to get Cain, Moustakas, and a mid-priced pitcher for a roughly similar payout structure to Stanton.
Would that definitely be a preferable option to acquiring Stanton? Not necessarily. Cain, of course, is significantly older than Stanton, and signing two of KC’s free agents would require the loss of multiple draft picks. While Cain, Moustakas, and a decent pitcher might project for roughly +7 WAR combined, Stanton only requires one roster spot, and would give the team the flexibility to find some upside to fill one of the other holes, potentially giving them more overall value than going with the spread-the-money plan.
But I think it’s worth noting that the Giants do have options to get better, and the choices aren’t either “trade for Stanton” or “be lousy again in 2018.” The Giants need better players, not just more power, and if they’re willing to take on almost $300 million, there are other ways to get better than just trading for Stanton. At the end of the day, acquiring Stanton might be the best option, but they shouldn’t see it as the only option. They don’t just need power; they need wins, and there are multiple ways to buy wins with that kind of money.
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
@Dave Dombrowski, please read “But that kind of thinking is often a trap. Believing that a team has to acquire one particular skill can lead front offices to ignore other reasonable paths toward improvement.”
As a Tigers fan, I have to say I don’t quite get why Dombrowski gets knocked so much. Tigers were awful until he took over, and then the team competed every year. Or at least, started the season as contenders. Sure, I get wanting to keep a Margot or Moncada, but i’d rather have Kimbrel and Sale, quite honestly. I’m not the one paying these guys. Boston is going to spend, they may as well spend it on the best players, as opposed to trying to get by with more mediocre guys, like old regime did with guys like say Panda. Biggest knock of DD’s tenure was dealing Fister for Ray. How’d that turn out (well, if he hadn’t flipped him for–what did they flip him for?!?!? Shane Greene? So that actually was worst trade)? Most of the excessive $$/years contracts came from ownership, as Illitch wanted desperately to win before he passed, which sadly never happened. But DD made some brilliant moves: he got Fister for Charlie Furbush, picked up JD off waivers, Acquired Carlos Guillen for hot garbage, Getting Fulmer for a few months of Cespedes, and probably his best, getting Max Scherzer and Austin Jackson for Edwin Jackson and Curtis Granderson. Yup, he’s gotten dinged, too. Every GM has. When you try for greatness, sometimes you attain it, sometimes you fail spectacularly. That doesn’t make trying for greatness an unworthy goal.
2013 and the lack of a bullpen. The Tigers never should have lost to the Orioles.
In my mind he gets dinged because hes not a good asset manager, specifically when it comes to prospects.
Its about to be 2018 and the days of trading away prospects because they are “just prospects” should be long gone. Prospects have real value, something I’m not sure DD completely comprehends.
I’m not against trading prospects for MLB talent, but major overpays like the Kimbrel deal make me question Dombrowski’s process.
Totally agree. Defense in the outfield should be a huge priority given their home park and flyball pitching staff. And speed should be a part of their game too…would be nice to actually get some triples out of triples alley. I’d love to acquire someone like Billy Hamilton to kill both birds with one stone. Stanton would be great, of course, but not the only path forward.
Don’t stop with Billy Hamilton, call Epstein in Chicago and twist his arm until he gives up Jason Heyward for RF.
Ya just have to cross your fingers and hope Heyward doesn’t opt out.
I know you are getting downvoted but I upvoted it for the “hope Heyward doesn’t opt out” 🙂
Love the Billy Hamilton patrolling triples alley ideas. Makes a ton of sense for that team.
I wonder how many inside-the-park HR Hamilton would get out of triples alley? With his speed, if he bangs one to the wall out there, I’m thinking it takes a clean pick and 2 good throws with a clean relay to get him at the plate. And any misplayed ball out there at all is surely a HR for him.
I agree with the “one roster spot” argument in favor of a guy like Stanton, but the inverse of that is that so much of your budget is invested in a single asset that could become untradeable if he goes down with injury or starts an early decline phase. The Giants have a lot of money but if Stanton’s contract becomes dead weight it could still handcuff them once they have to re-sign MadBum or try to pick up other premier free agents.
One issue with the free agency route is that the Giants have a hard time recruiting free agent hitters. San Francisco can be polarizing politically, has high taxes, and the ballpark is huge/cold/windy. The stars have to align (or the Giants have to overpay) to bring in big free agent bats.
Somebody like Cain has to find it a little alluring to go play for Willie Mays’s team, though, right?
The unexplained up- and downvoting around here never ceases to baffle me.
You just posted “Lorenzo Cain is a black center fielder so he must want to play for the same team as Willie Mays” as if that was somehow insightful
Do the Pirates have some big draw with Latino players because of Clemente?
It was fucking stupid and illogical so you got downvoted.
I said what again? But OK, thank you, getting the bizarre misreading out there in the open helps me understand what happened here. That comment you thought you were reading definitely would’ve been a dumb one for someone to make!
No they didn’t. They said
“Somebody like Cain has to find it a little alluring to go play for Willie Mays’s team, though, right?”
You took that and manufactured
“Lorenzo Cain is a black center fielder so he must want to play for the same team as Willie Mays”
You are the fucking stupid illogical one.
Curious. Would you have said the same thing about Mike Trout, that he, too, would find it a little alluring to play for Willie Mays’ team? Or do you know something about Cain that makes him more drawn to playing for the same team as Mays?
Because if you are just referring to this because they’re both black center fielders, then….yeah. Don’t do that.
I kinda think Trout would find an allure in that.
Maybe they meant in a sense that any LF may want to play for the Giants bc of Bonds. Or a 1B may want to suit up for the yanks bc of lou gehrig, or a 2B may want to play for the dodgers bc of Jackie Robinson.
Literally 100% of the racial aspects of his comment are inferred by those downvoting.
The odd thing is the Giants tried that skill trap just last offseason. They thought they had one glaring need in the bullpen and put all their eggs into Mark Melancon without addressing other possible needs (some glaring like LF). It obviously worked out about as poorly as it possibly could.
The Giants are on the precipice of needing a complete overhaul, so they need to be very careful this winter, IMO.
While I think this is largely right in theory I have a couple quibbles with how it applies to the Giants in this specific situation.
In Dave’s alternate scenario where the Giants spread this investment across multiple free agents, the Giants need to successfully “win” two separate negotiations with Cain and Moose. A couple things follow. One is that, because of where they sit on the win curve, they probably need to get both players for this strategy to be successful. If they get one of the two, there are other options, maybe the sign Cain and Todd Frazier, or Moose and Jarrod Dyson, and invest more in the third piece. But there’s also the risk they end up in no man’s land, and that risk is magnified by their relative inability to trade for help because of the state of their farm system. Stanton at least gives them the value in a single transaction, and given the timing lets them plan forward with that commitment in the books.
If SF is winning the bidding, they’re also likely on the high end of those estimates, what with the winner’s curse. Whether that’s better or worse than the risk that comes with Stanton’s contract is debatable.
Lastly, if the Giants are trying to back-load deals, this exacerbates both of these challenges. Players typically don’t prefer back-loaded deals — making winning the bidding harder and/or the cost of acquisition higher.
I also largely agree with Dave’s general premise, but I see another problem with his specifics: the Giants’ luxury tax situation.
The Giants are estimated to be $9.5 million under for 2018 right now (per Cot’s) including arbitration salaries. Since luxury tax is based on AAV, Stanton would be either $25 million or $29.5 million for luxury tax. I’m not certain how his contract is treated post-trade – would it be the AAV for all of it (13 / $325 million) or just the post-trade portion? I am almost certain, though, that any money that the Marlins would agree to pay post opt-out gets pro-rated over the remainder of Stanton’s contract. That would be a $4 to $5 million AAV luxury tax benefit if the Marlins agree to pick up $40 to $50 million post opt-out. Depending on these various permutations, the Giants would pay something like $5 million to $10 million in luxury tax for 2018 if Stanton is their only salary addition.
Dave estimates Cain and Moustakas combined to sign for $35 million of AAV. Add in one of his listed starting pitcher options and one of the listed relievers, and that’s another $20 to $25 million of AAV based on Dave’s estimated contracts. So now the Giants are up to about $45 to $50 million over the luxury tax in 2018. With a 50% rate, plus the new surtaxes on $20 to $40 million over and (higher surtax) on more than $40 million over, my math is that puts the Giants paying about $25 to $30 million in luxury tax for 2018.
Plus their 2019 1st round draft pick would drops 10 places for being more than $40 million over the tax in 2018. Plus they’d give up their 2nd, 3rd, 5th, and 6th round picks in the 2018 draft for being a luxury taxpayer that signs 2 free agents with QO’s attached (Cain and Moustakas).
Also, I forgot to add: the idea of deferring money to Moustakas, Cain, et al doesn’t help with the luxury tax. It makes the issue worse, because it just means higher AAV if it’s truly offering more guaranteed dollars for the same number of years but deferring the cash or backloading contracts.
Tacking on extra years to lower AAV could lower the luxury tax bill a bit, but it also sets up the potential for some really painful years down the road. Would the alternative be something like 6 / $108 for Moustakas (instead of 5 / $95) and 5 / $80 for Cain (instead of 4 / $68) to save a couple million of luxury tax per year in 2018 and other early years of these contracts?
Was going to post the same thing. Giants are in a tough spot with the salary situation. I’m looking at b-ref and not Cots but it’s pretty similar – $182M already for 2018 and $182M for 2019 ($174M if they decline Span’s 2019 option). Heck, they’re already at $154M for 2020 and that’s with MadBum becoming a FA after 2019 and $136M in 2021 when Samardzjia becomes a FA (of course arbitration estimates that far out are nearly impossible but still). David Schoenfield had a similar article recently that pointed out the same thing – yeah, they can get better, but it requires adding a ton of salary and in the real world that’s far more difficult.
Fact is, the Giants are paying now for backloading Crawford and Belt’s contracts around Cain’s expiring this year and then backloading Melancon’s around Pence becoming a FA after 2018. they have an expensive, aging roster signed for a long time. Going to be tough to figure out how to turn that ship around. The upside as I see it is that they have a number of players who were really good not all that long ago.
I’m also trying to figure out why Moustakas would want to sign in SF. That park just crushes left-handed power – I’m kind of guessing but I bet no hitter in the majors is hurt more by his home ballpark than Brandon Belt. Sure money talks and if his best deal is there he might have to take it, but he also needs to think at least a little bit about his next deal and how much of a beating that’s going to take if he goes and hits .250-.260 with 20 HR per year for the next 4-5 years.
Dave’s reasoning is perfectly sound.
Still, it’s worth noting that the Giants just set a franchise worst in HR deficit, yielding 54 more than they hit. And in today’s game, it’s incredibly rare to be successful with even half that deficit.
In the last 10 years, 63 teams were -28 or worse in net HRs. Those teams averaged a 71-91 record and -44 net HRs. Only 2 of those 63 teams made the playoffs, and only one had as many as 90 wins.
Okay, the lone 90-win team in that pool was the 2012 WS Champion Giants. But it would be a huge mistake to assume that net HRs don’t matter so much to a team in a HR-suppressing park. Since opening this park in 2000, the Giants have had 7 years of 90+ wins. Those 7 years averaged +43 net HRs, and all but 2012 were at least +22.
Net home runs don’t matter; net runs do. Obviously they are strongly correlated. In fact, Giants scored second lowest runs in mlb (to Padres) and third worst run differential (to Pads and Tigers). However, thinking that home runs is the only solution is simply not true. With their home park, it may in fact be a pretty poor approach.
You said it yourself — “obviously, [net HRS and net runs] are strongly correlated.”
Whatever the home park, if a team gives up 182 HRs, it’s EXTREMELY unlikely they’ll outscore their foes while hitting 150 HRs or less. Successful teams that hit very few HRs relative to their league almost always allow very few HRs, too.
Regardless of this off-season (stay put, Stanton, many FA, etc.), 2018 is the Giants’ last real shot at contending, with the youth in their division as well as across the NL, not to mention the dry farm system.
Yeah, it might make more sense to take McCutchen off the Pirates hands for the last year of his deal and fix the CF problem. Then decide in July whether to do a rebuild or go for it. At that point the Orioles may have seen reality and be shopping Machado, which would solve the 3B problem and make the Giants legit contenders for 2017.
The trouble with that is, in order to get McCutchen you’d have to give up prospects, which wouldn’t be good for a rebuild. Then, if the Giants are middling or bad and looking to flip players for prospects, they have to hope that McCutchen has had a good first half, or else they won’t be able to get much back for him.
I don’t think Baltimore would trade Machado for the the top 5 prospects in the Giants system. If they shop him they will get a ton back and it won’t be from SF.
Machado is a very good player, but a player only has so much trade value as a 1/2 year rental, or even a 1-year rental.
I also recommend that you read this recent post by Dave Cameron – https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/third-base-looks-like-a-buyers-market/ . Long story short, the expected contenders don’t look likely to have much demand for third basemen (barring injuries), and there could be up to three really good rental third basemen on the market during the 2018 season (Machado, Donaldson, and Beltre). And Longoria might also be available in a trade, plus two teams are going to sign Moustakas and Frazier this off-season.
“Mike Moustakas … bringing that much-coveted power to the lineup, too.”
Didn’t the Moustakas article just the other day conclude that playing in SF would absolutely kill Moustakas’s ability to get all those fringey fly balls to right out of the park?
The Giants haven’t had a player hit as many as 28 homeruns in a season since Bonds, and they’ve only had players put up 20+ HR in a season ten times in those nine years, while Belt has led the team in HR both of the past two years with 17 and 18. That’s a glaring deficiency that ought to be addressed, but acquiring Stanton alone would not be enough, even if he helps to make other hitters in the lineup more productive. If Evans & Co do manage to pull the trigger on a deal for Stanton, they ought to be planning it as only a first major move of at least two. Signing Cain might then be an especially good idea, and perhaps he might be more enticed knowing the team is committed and ‘all in’ after bringing over Stanton. But even properly fixing the OF is not enough with the gaping hole at 3B still open. Would SF’s ballpark hinder Moustakas’ homeruns? I would guess, certainly yes, but nevertheless, he would be a tremendous upgrade. If the Giants are willing to make such a bold move as what trading for Stanton would be, they would be fools not to follow it up with all of the other moves that would be needed to fix the other major problems.
Now to add a bit of snark to my previous comment, Sabean and Bochy are world-class fools, and Evans being a Sabean-disciple does not engender confidence either. I feel bad for Pence, having been injured and declining as he has been, but he’s barely playable at this point, and Span ought to be tossed in the nearest recycling bin. If Smith has recovered from TJ surgery, he ought to improve the bullpen, but it seems hard to project Melancon as any better than another three years of disaster. And WTF are they thinking in keeping Moore? It’s not just his numbers that are atrocious–if you watch him pitch, it looks like he’s throwing batting practice: Z-contact 89.6%!?! Have mercy on the fans and DFA the guy now. He’s like an even more timid reincarnation of Terrible Z(ito) and without the curveball.
Your idea of Stanton plus Cain plus Moustakas would add something like $55 to $65 million of AAV payroll to the 2018 Giants and put them roughly $45 to $55 million over the luxury tax line. We’re talking about just a luxury tax bill on the order of $25 to $35 million, on top of a huge increase in payroll. They’d end up with a luxury tax bill that I think could be the biggest ever paid by any team except for the Dodgers, and would definitely be far and away the biggest amount of luxury tax paid by any team except for the Dodgers or the Yankees.
Yep, that’s about how screwed the Giants are going into 2018. But what’s the point of acquiring Stanton–and perhaps Dee Gordon, as it was reported–which would put them over the tax threshold, if they’re not going to go ‘all in’ and try to plug all the holes? I imagine the alternative would be getting under the tax threshold to reset it and going with the players they already have, but that doesn’t seem as though it would be likely to turn out much better than this year did. Pence or Span might be better next year than this, but it seems like wishful thinking that either will, much less both.
Personally, I’d prefer to watch an OF of Slater, Hernandez, and Parker, and that would mean putting the nearly $30M of dead weight in Span and Pence on the bench, but imagining that will happen is just as much wishful thinking as expecting Span or Pence to bounce back into their prime. During Bochy’s entire tenure, he has almost always played the veterans over the kids, regardless of how terrible the vets have been. (From just 2017 as an example, look at the nearly .500 OPS accumulated by Hill, Ruggiano, Gillaspie, Stubbs, and Morse over nearly 300 PA. The FO has to DFA them before Bochy will stop running them out there.)
And the OF aside, who is going to play 3B? Ryder Jones hit well in AAA, but he was far over-matched in the ML. And, please, no more Panda. But then who? Tomlinson? Decent defense, very little offense–he makes a good utility backup INF, and if he’s thrust into a starting role, then the team needs someone new to fill that role, albeit an easier and cheaper acquisition to make.
I just don’t see many meaningful options for the Giants except to spend a ridiculous sum in a desperate attempt to recapture the quickly-fading magic, or ‘play the kids’ (a common refrain / complaint against Bochy a decade ago) and try to develop what little young talent the team has. As a fan, I’d be happy either way, but I suspect it’s much more likely that the FO will try to ‘muddle through’ and put another uninteresting or half-hearted product (ie. Span, Pence, and Panda or the like) on the field. But in that case, getting Stanton wouldn’t make any sense to me–unless Evans, Sabean, et al, think they can placate the fans with one high-profile symbolic, but futile, gesture. I suspect that’s what they’re thinking, but it remains to be seen.
Fair enough. You know the team much better than I do, and I can see the point of view from the front office of going all-in for a chance at contention over the next couple years even if that means that the subsequent crash and rebuild is deeper (or at least more expensive in payroll) than it would otherwise be.
Really just making the point that the Giants have been right around $200 million for payroll (including player benefits) plus luxury tax each of the past three years (per Cot’s and reporting that I’ve seen on 2017 luxury tax). The idea of all these signings to go $45 to $55 million over the luxury tax line puts them at more like $270 to $290 million for those totals in 2018. Maybe ownership has the appetite to do that – I don’t know either way – but just throwing out that it’s a really big increase from what they’ve done the past few years.
“For instance, Arizona scored 33% of their baserunners, the third-highest total in MLB, despite recording a 95 wRC+ as a team.”
This statement feels like a misleading combination of a park-adjusted stat (wRC+) and a non-park adjusted percentage. Doesn’t a fair amount of this comparison just reflect that they play in an offense-favorable home park so lots of their unadjusted offensive stats look better than park-adjusted ones?
For example, looking just at the NL to strip out the DH difference, the Diamondbacks scored the 4th most runs, had the 5th-highest wOBA, hit the 5th-most HR’s (only 4 behind the leader), and had the highest ISO. All of that despite the #8 wRC+ among the 15 NL teams.
Dave makes a very valid point. The Giants fell into that trap last year. Replace Casilla and we’re a contender. It didn’t work not just because Melancon’s injuries and performance but the bullpen, defense and offense stunk. What I would suggest doesn’t appear popular with the Giants’ brass. I would try to first build up the bullpen and then sign a CF who can run and catch the ball. How about Dyson? The Giants will not contend in 2018 but hopefully they won’t lose 98 games. When Pence and Span off the books in 2019, go for a Machado or Harper. The only negative is they may be more expensive than Stanton which is the reason for the big push this off-season.
I keep thinking through this, and my conclusion is that there is no good way out of this.
The Giants won 3 world series, kept paying huge salaries to keep the team’s contention window open, and now are faced with a team that is likely to be around .500. All the routes to improve are expensive. You can trade for Giancarlo Stanton with the idea that will help keep you relevant, but I’m not sure that the Giants have the appetite to spend at so many positions (the whole outfield, and probably third base too) to be a top-flight contender. And all these contracts we’re talking about–Stanton, Cain, etc–are going to be millstones in a couple of years.
Not saying that they should necessarily sell everyone for prospects, since their best position players are either underrated (Crawford, Belt, Panik) or have a no-trade clause (Posey). And it’s worth it to maintain some relevance…but maybe the team should consider not trying to make one last run with the gang and start keeping their assets.
The problem is, as you say, it’s hard to see a compelling way out in either direction — the farm may be relatively bare but the fire-sale rebuilding approach doesn’t seem likely to work out all that well either. So trying to keep the gang together and add a superstar or two for one last hurrah might be as viable as anything else. If 2019 and the next few years beyond that are probably going to stink anyway, why not push a few more chips in on 2018?
“If 2019 and the next few years beyond that are probably going to stink anyway, why not push a few more chips in on 2018?”
Not saying that’s wrong, but one trade-off there is just how expensive the payroll is during that subsequent crash. That’s really a business question as much as a baseball question for the team. I suppose they may take some comfort on the business side that the team still averaged attendance of 3.1 million during four straight losing seasons (71 to 76 wins) from 2005-2008.
One baseball-oriented consideration is that signing QO’d players such as Cain and Moustakas costs them two draft picks per player. That – and seeing their first round draft pick drop ten places if they’re $40 million+ over the luxury tax – should clearly be expected to hamper their efforts to rebuild the farm system and improve their post-2019 outlook.
RMHF, I agree with you on some level, but perhaps taking on more albatross contracts and trading away what’s left of the farm system is not a wise idea. At some point, the team should compete again, and I would argue that even if they can’t make many moves now to fortify it they should probably start planning for 2021 or so and not push in more chips.
I prefer waiting out the free agents market and trying plug outfield spots on shorter-term FA deals. I think that the odds are low enough of another run that trading for Stanton is far more likely to hurt than help them.
Yeah, I didn’t appreciate how far out some of these contracts go until I looked at Cot’s.
The Giants already have $109 million committed for 2020 to six players – Posey, Cueto, Melancon, Samardzija, Belt, and Crawford – who are already at least 30 years old other than Belt (who is 29). They have $76 million of that committed to 2021 for four of those players (Posey, Cueto, Belt, and Crawford).
It would be one thing if they were currently getting great collective production from those players, but those six players combined for 14 WAR in 2017 (though I’m sure, without looking it up, that the total was much higher in 2016).
Those 2020 and 2021 payroll commitments to aging players just get bigger whether they add Stanton (currently 28) or follow Dave Cameron’s idea of signing Cain (currently 31) and Moustakas (currently 29). They also will need to extend / re-sign Bumgarner (currently 28) or lose him after 2019.
It’s staring to look like a repeat of the Phillies teams that fell off the map fairly quickly as their core group of expensive players all got old at the same time without farm system reinforcements to fill in around them. Even might be a bit of a worse situation, judging by 2017, because the problems for the Giants have already hit when their core is a couple years younger than the Phillies’ core.
Yeah, their salary scale is totally f’ed up. The logical thing to do here is to sell hard, but if they’re talking about trading for Stanton they don’t have the stomach for that (and neither do the fans, probably). And no one is beating down the door for any of those expensive pieces and there are a lot of no-trade clauses too. They’d mostly be salary dumps except Bumgarner and Panik.
They’ll be okay for a while, but it’s really hard to do much when you have that much money tied up in guys who are past their prime. I think staying the course might be the best option unless one of their guys starts getting a ton of trade interest or they get really hot and take off unexpectedly.
Are the Giants actually remotely close to competing next year? From the sounds of it, they should already be considering the tear-down phase.
Looks like the Cards dodged another bullet.
First Albert,then Heyward,and Price,and now Stanton.
Talk about buying high.
What will that do to the SF payroll 2018?
Leave it to Dave to minimize the value of a slugging corner OFer so teams can justify not spending the money fans give them. Must be related to Bill James. Both would do the same with Babe Ruth.
I would say in a park like the Giants have Stanton is worth even more, as much as Bonds was. Sounds like they just have to pay money and a couple of not especially great prospects.
So they may pay a little tax in year 1 . Boo hoo. Its a no brainer.
As far as any discussion of trimming payroll to fit Stanton (or Cain/Moose) in, keep in mind that Posey, Crawford and Melancon all have full no-trades, Pence has 10/5 rights, Belt has a 10 team no-trade and Samardzjia has a 22 team no-trade
I don’t have the impression that the Giants are just focusing on Stanton. In fact, in their press conference to end the season, they noted that their priorities for the off-season are improving defense in CF (short term solution OK because they think Duggar will be ready in short term), finding a 3B upgrade over internal options, and strengthening the bullpen.
None of those involve Stanton, so I view him (and Ohtani) as bonuses for the off-season, that won’t stop them from the three goals above (though obviously Stanton would lessen their ability to spend top dollar on upgrades), or at least hopefully don’t stop them. But with payroll limitations, they are kind of handcuffed in terms of who to get, as well, Stanton or no Stanton.
I get the feeling that they are willing to go over the CBT penalty thresholds for a Stanton, but not so much for others.